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Thanks LF for the comments, I agree about the whole fraud thing. How many of us have actually "invented" anything for the hobby?

So OT again to the subject of cameras. I was looking at the cannon powershot A630. At tetratech's link up there I set it up next to the S3 IS and did a little comparason. Basically the two things the IS has going for it is the IS and the 12X optical zoom. It's also a bit better in a couple features like macro and shutter speed. The A630 has pretty much all the same features, but a couple more megapixel sensor, a larger lcd screen, it's about $100 cheaper, and is smaller and lighter.

Here's the comparason. I'd really appreciate input from you guys on this one.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

I wish I could help you with the camera stuff, but I had a lot of help from NowherMan6 figuring out how mine works. Plus, he was the one who recommended my lense to me. In other words, if you think I am bad with handling my algae issues wait until I start handing out camera advice

Sorry,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Nobody else on the camera?

Well I ended up getting few more fish today. The furcata rainbows were looking particularly fantastic so I got 3m,3f. Thier gold fins and blue eyes are incredible.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Wish I could help Matty, especially since you've been so helpful on my pump choice issue.

I know nothing about cameras. My camera is a pretty shabby Kodak Easy Share, that takes ok pictures of things that don't move & pretty lousy pictures of swimming fish.

Sorry.

Cheers
TW

Hi Matty,
The S3 certainly looks the better choice (quite heavy thought, half a kilo ). A difference of 2MP is not going to be a great deal, believe me. Above 5MP, everything is just about the same.
Along with the macro mode, look for a quickshot (fast shutter) mode. I have a cannon S60 and it has the feature. I can photograph a running fan using this mode with all three blades clearly visible without any blur. That helps a lot capturing quick fishies.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canons60/

The furcata rainbows were looking particularly fantastic so I got 3m,3f.

So, while trying to get us all to talk about the camera options you are sneaking another school of rainbows into the tank. Now you have 3 different species there, right?

I one heard that Rainbows in general interbreed, what is your opinion on that?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks for the help everyone, mughal, the A630 does have a sshutter speed priority mode, and just about any combination of shutter, ISO, and aperture can be selected in manual mode. My Nikon that I have now never leaves manual mode. I'm hoping that might change with whatever new camera I buy. I'm pretty much set on the A630 unless somebody has something very negative to say about it. It comes "highly recommended" from dpreview and has most of the options I'm looking for and falls within(or should I say closer to) the budget, than the S3. I know how cool the IS is supposed to be, but is generally more usefull for use at the 12X zoom region, which I won't have to worry about in the A630. I'm still mulling it over, and probably will be until my camera breaks or christmas comes.

LF - Rainbows of the same family will interbreed, yes. I have selected 3 rainbows from 3 different families. Furcatas are psuedomugil, Praecox are melanotaenia, and the threadfins are iriatherina. Unfortunately it's a moot point anyways, as I never have had anything want to spawn for me. In the (I think) 6 yrs of keeping fish it's never even come close, though I've never owned any live bearers or anything that breeds like rabbits. I have thought about keeping some live bearers, just to boost my confidence, but what if they didn't breed . This will be the last type of rainbow I buy, unfortunately, as I'm about out of common dwarf rainbows from different families, and out of room to house a large enough number of them. Plus I'll want to fill out the 3 species I have. Maybe just a couple more of each species. I know it sounds like a lot of fish, but they are all slim, small fish.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

More is not always more. Less maybe more at times. That is just my thoughts though. It is your tank and you have to look at it so you be happy with it. Don't let us bug you about it.

In my tank I only have 3 types of fish:

Brilliant rasboras
Guppies
Otos

I like it simpler...

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Matty,

Sorry to get here late re: the camera talk, but here's my two cents anyway:

The Canon A series is very hard to beat, you can't go wrong there. They're easy to use and come out with very good results. I never tested out the AF tracking with an A series, so I can't comment on that, but my guess is there will be similar limitations on this just the same as on any P&S. Also, with 8 million pixels crammed onto a tiny sensor it's going to be pretty noisy at high ISOs, so don't expect miracles. Using a +1/3 exposure compensation can help turn down the appearance of noise, but it'll still be there if your at 400 or above.

And just a rule of thumb for you pixel peepers out there re: resolution. For practical purposes mughal113 is pretty much right, when printing out up to probably 5X7, maybe 8X10, you wont notice the difference between 5 and 8 megapixels. However, that's still agreat difference in resolution and the amount of detail captured. As a rule of thumb, all things being equal, there has to be about a 50% increase in pixels in order to notice a difference when viewing up close. 5MP to 8 is over 50%, and you'd definetely notice. But going from 5 to 6 is negligable, as is going from 6 to 8, 8 to 10 or 10 to 12. Making small jumps like that is a waste if that's what one is basing a decision on, all it'll lead to is an increase in noise. better a smooth 8MP than noisier 10 IMO.

Actually, just looking at it now, the A630 does have a continuous AF mode, which is what you'll need (not need, but it'll come in handy) for shooting moving objexts like fish. Definetely a plus. Go for it.

Nice rainbows by the by

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Back in the saddle!

Nowher- thanks for the reply, late or not. I'm not into rushing decisions of this magnitude and above. So the fact that the A630 has more megapixels and a larger sensor than the S3 is a good thing, right? If the sensor were the same size and more megapixels, that would not be good? From the review(of the A620), it said that the camera handled the noise at high ISO's better than most similar cameras, and when the pics were lined up I could definitely tell the difference.

Wings- I tried the less is more approach with cardinals in my last tank. I didn't like how they sat in a corner by themselves all day. Not my thing. I decided with this tank that I would go for a bunch of active, attractive little fish. So far so good, as they buzz all over the tank all day. I guess I enjoy the activity, though some might say it detracts from the planted tank. And really, I don't have that many different fish. 3 types of rainbows, otos, and syno cat. I might think of a dwarf cichlid, maybe not. I know people who would have 2 of this and that with the same total number of fish(or more).

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Nowher- thanks for the reply, late or not. I'm not into rushing decisions of this magnitude and above. So the fact that the A630 has more megapixels and a larger sensor than the S3 is a good thing, right? If the sensor were the same size and more megapixels, that would not be good? From the review(of the A620), it said that the camera handled the noise at high ISO's better than most similar cameras, and when the pics were lined up I could definitely tell the difference.

Just the opposite, actually. The sensor on the A630 is smaller than on the S3, but there are more pixels crammed onto that smaller sensor than there are on the larger S3, which is why the A630 is noisier.

That said, compared to other cameras in its class, it's probably the smoothest of the bunch, canaon is just good at that stuff. For practical purposes the noise probably wont be an issue, but the above was just to clarify...

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Back in the saddle!

1/1.8" = 14mm dia. (A630) is bigger than 1/2.5" = 10mm dia. (S3). So the A630 has a bigger sensor...no? Though I do see that most 8mpixel cams are 2/3" which is larger than the A630. Maybe that's what you are saying. I'm going off their info, I don't have any real camera training, so correct me on this issue if I'm wrong.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,
I'm certainly no camera guru, but I noticed on the side by side that the 630 doesn't have image stablization. That is a big plus when holding the camera under say 1/25 sec, otherwise I think your tripod bound. Also I couldn't tell from the review, but my s2 and the s3 have the supermicromode which let's you take a pic right up against the glass of the tank. The zoom issue isn't a factor with aquaria, but at 12x it does come in handy elsewhere.

My Scapes

1/1.8" = 14mm dia. (A630) is bigger than 1/2.5" = 10mm dia. (S3). So the A630 has a bigger sensor...no? Though I do see that most 8mpixel cams are 2/3" which is larger than the A630. Maybe that's what you are saying. I'm going off their info, I don't have any real camera training, so correct me on this issue if I'm wrong.

I was mixing up the pages I was looking at. I thought the former was the latter, and vicey versey.

In that case you should be right. Have you seen any examples of high ISO pics from the A630?

Either way, what tetra mentioned in IS should be a more important factor than noise. Pixel peeping is a horrible disease. Sometimes I look through a magazine, like People for example, and I'll think "ugh, how can they publish that picture of Jennifer Anniston and Vince Vaughn - it's soo damn noisy!" It's not somethign to get caught up in, just something to consider.

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Back in the saddle!

For the A630 the 400 ISO looks entirely useable in good light, and the 800 ISO looked like it would be ok to use to catch the fast stuff if the lights are good and if I'm going to be using for internet posting. At full resolution, the 800 ISO was pretty bad, but the 400 wasn't bad at all. Compared to other cameras of similar caliber the noise is less with the canon. I think the S3 IS is just as bad with noise. I don't think you can say that any non-SLR is great with noise, and I'm not going to get an SLR, so whatever camera I look at will have the problem. I was really impressed otherwise with the quality of shots to come from the A630. It would be like 5 or 6 steps up from my current camera, which in all reality has treated me pretty well for the last few years.

I'll still think about it for a while, maybe I'll plead with a couple family members to combine xmas for me and go for the S3 IS, or the A710 IS.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

It's been about a week since my last update, and I did a water change and a bit more trimming/removing etc. This time the nesea went. I guess I'll never learn the cause and solution to the stunting odd growth leaves. On a brighter note I saw both nynodontis cats today. one makes his home under the ludwiggia and the other makes his home under a rock on the death star.

So...to the pics:


An LF slightly tilted frontal


A matty special


from the left side


a bit of a closeup on the chain swords

I dunno what it is about those chain swords that hooks me.

There's still some green algae growing around on the glass and hardscape, but I would guess that it's my fault for continually adding groups of fishes. We'll see if that settles out now that I'm done with the fish buying for a while. I thought about checking all my parameters, but I'm feeling lazy and have laundry to do, so I'll do it next time.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

This tank is really taking off into something special, the waterfall already at this stage looks better than I ever would have imagined! In general, your tank looks beautiful and healthy, but why don't you do something about that background? I don't know it it's just me, but personally I hate seeing cables from equipment hanging in the back of my "garden" Just put a black or a blue piece of cardboard behind the tank and it'll look a lot better... if you like the white, then use a white piece, just so that the horrid cable is no longer visible.

It's looking really beautiful matty.

Cheers
TW

It's starting to look sweet, much better with the removal of the nesea, but someone put a thin black plant there instead. Is that "Vallisneria cable"? I'm not sure if that fits in. Otherwise very nice, I would like to see the glosso run more into the middle of the tank.

My Scapes

Is that "Vallisneria cable"?

Matty,

Your tank is looking very nice. Good changes! There is much more flow to the tank now!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Hey Matt, finally got the internet hooked up here in beantown.
The tank is looking great! I have to admit I was pretty skeptical about the glosso covering the deathstar, but it's filling in wonderfully.

I was reading about your petricolas.... They're extremely nocturnal. Get a moonlight and you'll see a lot more of them. Mine would be out the minute the lights went off scrounging around for food (before they died of strange, seizing fits).

How's the Fish Hole holding up? Did Jake get some reliable help?

Is that "Vallisneria cable"? I'm not sure if that fits in.

It's falling on deaf ears, my friend.. but you might as well keep hammering the point home anyway

Any chance you can snap away a pic or two of these cats Matty? or, failing that, provide a link?

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Back in the saddle!

It's falling on deaf ears, my friend.. but you might as well keep hammering the point home anyway

I continually forget to buy the background. It's on the to do list, I swear. I want to say that I'll get it sunday, but so far I have a bad track record of remembering the background. I'll get it eventually.

Nate, it's good to hear you made it to boston safely. Any updates at your forum yet? I'll have to go check it out and see how well the tanks travelled. I'll see into one of those moon lights. My light on my sump has them and I don't use them. Maybe I can tear them out of there . Jake got some new help, I haven't even met them yet. They've probably worked there for 3 or 4 weeks now. I don't really know anybody that works there any more, everybody has dropped to minimal hours or quit for school or other reasons. Makes me feel old to have the most seniority other than the managers.

Sorry nowhere, no possible chance of getting these guys in a pic. here's to planet catfish. Pretty ok article. I've never seen a 4" petricola though. We have a few at the store that have been there for years and are maybe a little bigger than 2 inches. They are in a heavily planted, well taken care of 75g tank. These aren't very nocturnal and are out all the time, which made me falsely beleive I'd see mine a bit more. Mine are probably a bit over half an inch right now and like to hide. Any pic I'd try to get would show little more than there hiding place .

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

Looking very nice, the glosso really is growing in. But I wouldn't be me if I would not have something to nag about

I think one of the downsides of the water fall is that it curves in the back, meaning the plants that are growing there are not visible from the front (at least that is how my tired eyes see it at 4 in the morning).

With regards to the background: Go to one of these hobby stores, like what chain is out there? Moore or something like that. They have these $5 thick cardboard sheets in all kinds of colors (make sure it is 36" long) and that is a cheap alternative for "real" tank backgrounds. I have used about 3 of them by now for my 20G and I am thinking of a few more different colors, just for the fun of it, like a reddish orange to show a sunrise (sunset,whatever).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

What you are looking for is matting material (the stuff that goes around pictures). I picked some up for my 29G a while back as they were running a half off sale!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

LF, with the construction of the falls, I tried my best to get it to match up against the sides of the tank, but unfortunately the pvc is rounded on the corners. It didn't end up matching perfectly so I pushed it as close as possible on the front right side, and decided that I'd stick some stems in the back left which I've done. I think the front right will fill in completely with glosso eventually, and that's the look I'm going for, and probably what people who aren't so darn picky will notice the most. The back will have to be as it is. Just an inherent problem I'll keep trying to cover up.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

who aren't so darn picky

- hey, I have nothing else to complain about, at least not when it comes to your tank

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

HUGE update for tomorrow...you guys won't beleive your eyes. Just a warning.

*feels suspense build*

*shines new blue badge*

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

HUGE update for tomorrow...you guys won't beleive your eyes. Just a warning. *feels suspense build*
*shines new blue badge*

Not fair, I won't have access to a computer for the next 4 days (not quite true, but not one that I can log onto FP anyway) So I guess, I'll be late for the update

Cheers
TW

Ok its tomorrow where is it???????

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

*shines new blue badge*

Well that is nice, congratulations. I have to say that I had something to do with it, as I voted for all the plant profiles you created (almost all, can't vote for the ones that I know nothing about).

Anyway, what is the surprise? You found a wallpaper for the tank?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

All apologies to tankwatcher, here's The HUGE update. LF totally ruined it. I got a background. Totally anticlimactic thanks to LF. I guess now it's just a regular ol' weekly update.

Aside from the background I got 3 amano shrimp and a crypt balansae that was only $0.50. The amano shrimp are in response to some more hair types of algae growing here and there. Nothing major yet. Hopefully they will help keep it in line. I also turned up the CO2 some more. I haven't even been measuring it, but the fish look just fine. The crypt was so cheap I had to get it. I'll turn it into some profit, because it fits in with the scheme OK now, but probably not when it gets tall.

So onto the pics. Frank will be happy, but tetratech might not, I got rid of his wire plant.


Frontal, notice the background


Nice angle looking at the falls.


The falls continueing to fill in.


My favorite spot in the tank right now...and a furcata.


View from the left side.


Matty special.

Welp that's it for this week. As usual comments/crits are welcome.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Wow Matty!

The Glosso is filling in really nicely. You can hardly see the pvc any more. It looks like it was well worth your time of planting it all over the Death Star.

The full tank shot shows nice growth and a very nice flow to things. Nothing is overly distracting but it might be nice to find a way to make the DS not compeat as much with the sweet looking far left side. Having the red plan pop out of the sea of pearl grass next to the rock is very nice.

It might be nice to let the chain swords curve around from where it meets the glosso to the back left side. Then move the pearl grass and cool red plant in its place.

Your favorite spot in the tank is also one of mine too!

What did you use for a background? You seem to have the same problem as I with yoru background. It shows off the water spots on the back! I am too lazy to clean mine off right now.

Overall very well done!!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

LF totally ruined it. I got a background. Totally anticlimactic thanks to LF.

Glad I could help ...

Anyway, I think the tank looks very nice now, to the point where I can envision it as almost complete. Besides the Glosso, the Pearl Grass seems to be growing really well in your tank (all others seem good also).

I think your Glosso is reaching the point where you will have to watch it more carefully for layered growth, the downfall of the Glosso in my tank. I am curious as how you will go about trimming it.

How is the Gayii (spelling?) doing? I had this plant for all of 24 hours and didn't like it too much.

Lastly, tell us more about the background. Is it a foil of some sort?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks for the replys and nice comments guys,

Nothing is overly distracting but it might be nice to find a way to make the DS not compeat as much with the sweet looking far left side.

So you think the left side draws attention away from the falls? I suppose I could move the ludwigia closer to the falls. I'm not sure what kind of effect that will have though.

It might be nice to let the chain swords curve around from where it meets the glosso to the back left side. Then move the pearl grass and cool red plant in its place.

Yeah, I've been thinking of doing some more construction so things aren't in such obvious groupings. I do intend to allow more room for the glosso again during the next makeover. I'll probably want it to come right through the two rocks into the chainsword area. In the front I'll give it another 2-3 inches I think. That will give more of a water flow feeling I think. Right now it stops too abruptly. So everything else will be positioned around that.

What did you use for a background? You seem to have the same problem as I with yoru background. It shows off the water spots on the back! I am too lazy to clean mine off right now.

To answer both of you, it's just one of those plastic jobies you find at the lfs. It's double sided, so I can switch over to black if I feel the need, though I kinda like the blue. And I'm not sure that there are any water spots on the glass. I think the back was pretty clean. You may be talking about the bubbles though. That's from a water change. It may just be an effect of the pic too. I didn't really pay attention to them.

I think your Glosso is reaching the point where you will have to watch it more carefully for layered growth, the downfall of the Glosso in my tank. I am curious as how you will go about trimming it.

Hmm. To me it's not filled in enough. I'm sure it will be a couple weeks before I take scissors to it. I'll probably be pretty brutal with the trimming. Just cut it right back down. Maybe take some of the cuttings and place them into the mesh in addition to what is already there so it fills in faster each time. I don't mind if things look a bit weird for a few days or a week. And I guess I'll skip over the places that cover the pvc because it seems like that will take the longest to happen since I can't plant anything there.

How is the Gayii (spelling?) doing? I had this plant for all of 24 hours and didn't like it too much.

I like it. I think it's perfect for where I put it as long as it stays healthy and full. I did plant it real close together, so we'll see how that goes. I've already spread some trimmings around and thrown some out, so it seems to be growing well since I moved it from the front right corner which is really shaded. It's also the only dark green plant I have, so it makes a nice contrast with the super bright green plants. Thinking about that corner, I'm not sure the glosso is going to take well there. I may need to cover that spot with something, maybe some crypts or something else with lower light requirements.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Looks great, Matty. It'll be no time flat before that glosso starts growing 5 layers deep and you rip your hair out pulling it up and replanting

The left side is very very nice. The challange as the tank grows in will be to have that side flow together with the glosso falls on the right. Something has to unify the two sides to make the scape conherent throughout. Right now it seems the tenellus is acting as just a divider between the two sides.

Excellent growth and plant health it seems - don't you want to give us a few patented LF close-up blemish shots to show the parts that aren't as perfect?

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Back in the saddle!

What? six shots weren't enough. Closeup shots are VERY difficult with my camera, ones that you can tell any detail and are in focus anyways. A quick snap and post is impossible. I like to spend the effort on a good shot on the nice stuff . If that's what the people want though, I aim to please, I'll try to get up some shots of the nasties, but you don't have to worry about the imperfections, they are there. Like I said, I got some hair algae growing, and some green fuzzy stuff. I'm hoping not for long though. Extra CO2 and some shrimpies should help.

I agree about the tenellus divider. In my mind it was better that the baby's tears and glosso could be differentiated, but that might not be the case.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I agree about the tenellus divider. In my mind it was better that the baby's tears and glosso could be differentiated, but that might not be the case

I agree with you on that, the leaf shapes may be too similar to have them close together.

Now that I look at the tank again, it seems to be taking on a "Dutch-style" garden look, and that works with the arrangement you have now. It may be a matter of seeing how everything fills in before doing anything major. My bad

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Back in the saddle!

My bad

Nope, not bad, comments are always good. And you are right that it forms a street right up to the front. I think it's too soon to go messing around in there again, otherwise I'd try something else out. Maybe if the baby's tears grow up a bit so that you can see them just peeking up over the swords it might seem more like a natural patch than a dutch street. Anyhow, I'm going to let things settle in for a while before I go digging around again.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi Matty

Glad to see you have background now. It makes the tank look better. Very impressed with everything in the setup & growing of everying thing in there

Cheers
TW

Thanks Robyn.


Well I'm still getting some weird algaes, so yesterday I decided to run some tests. pH was 6.6, KH was 6 for a CO2 of 45ppm. Nitrates were a bit above 10ppm. Nitrites were 0, but the weird thing was I had a tiny tiny amount of ammonia. It wasn't really a measurable amount, but it wasn't clear either. So I decided that my 204 isn't going to cut it, and I put a penguin 150 on the back of the tank. Turns out it doesn't fit over the edge real well and the output doesn't go down to the water line, so there is lot's of splashing. I immediately turned it off because I wanted CO2 in the tank. So today I have to jimmy rig some sort of extra output contraption.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ahhh, Mr Fix-it & do it yourself Matty. Now we would expect you to be the one to jimmy rig some sort of contraption

Cheers
TW

Matty,

It seems to me that you are having tanks only so you can build stuff

Anyway - That sounds a little fishy to me. How can it be that you have ammonia but no nitrites? Under normal conditions, wouldn't that mean that your tank is at the beginning of a cycle? If I am not mistaken, don't plants like ammonia as food much more than nitrate? What do you think?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matty,

You must watched a lot of red green when you were growing up.

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Ahhh, Mr Fix-it & do it yourself Matty. Now we would expect you to be the one to jimmy rig some sort of contraption

Well I used some eggcrate, aka light diffuser, and siliconed that to the output of of the penguin. looks like a mess, but I think it should work well. I'm going to let it continue to cure for the rest of today, and I'm going to pick up some filter cartridges while I'm at work.

It seems to me that you are having tanks only so you can build stuff

Isn't that half the fun?

You must watched a lot of red green when you were growing up.

I have no idea what red green is We talking about stop lights?

That sounds a little fishy to me. How can it be that you have ammonia but no nitrites? Under normal conditions, wouldn't that mean that your tank is at the beginning of a cycle? If I am not mistaken, don't plants like ammonia as food much more than nitrate? What do you think?

Well anytime I've seen an incomplete cycle(either underfiltration, overfeeding, over stocking), it's always ammonia, and sometimes nitrite, sometimes not. I've seen more samples of water while working at the Fish Place than I care to mention. For the most part people who use whispers always have trace levels of ammonia without nitrite(because you HAVE to trash the filter media every month). Same with the people that have aquaclears that go heavy on the cleaning. The people who have ammonia and nitrite seem not to take care of their tanks(no water changes, gravel vacs, filter maint.) at all and over feed/over stock. But I'm talking a real slight level of ammonia. If I didn't think there was anything there I woldn't have taken it into full light, put it on a white background....that sort of thing. It's not even enough that the fish are concerned about it, which is why I was a bit surprised. All the fish are really active and always begging for food. It's all just anectodal observation, so I'm sure some more scientific approach could negate everything I said there.
I bet you are right too about the ammonia, it would probably be worse, but the plants and algae are using some of it. Hopefully the filter will clean things up and help take care of the algae. If this doesn't work, I'm going to have to seriously look at my ferts and lighting, but I think I'm good there. The worst of it is on the glosso especially up towards the right. The chain swords have some on the older leaves, but the baby's tears and star grass seem immune, probably cause they grow so fast.


If you guys think think I like to DIY stuff, wait till you see my new project...it's already underway.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi,
I'm afraid to ask!

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

wait till you see my new project...it's already underway

Either a hood for the tank or you build yourself a car

Anyway - As I am no longer opposed to overfiltration (see my 125 in the last 20 pages to follow filter discussion) I would say that you can always add this filter. But for the traces of ammonia, I would assume that your tank in itself (you know, plants and stuff) should be able to handle it.

And didn't you do this fancy ammonia cycling first? Where would now come this cycle from?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Not only are you making a hood and rigging up a filter - you are probably even cutting glass, sealing it together & building yourself a new tank out of recycled glass.

After that, you will build the car Ingo mentions.

Cheers
TW

You must watched a lot of red green when you were growing up

Watch PBS on Sunday nights. I think it is Sunday nights. I don't have a TV any more so I am a bit out of the loop.

http://www.cbc.ca/redgreen/ Check out the Handy Man Hall of Fame

If you guys think think I like to DIY stuff, wait till you see my new project...it's already underway

Can you use your old car for it?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Anyway - As I am no longer opposed to overfiltration (see my 125 in the last 20 pages to follow filter discussion) I would say that you can always add this filter. But for the traces of ammonia, I would assume that your tank in itself (you know, plants and stuff) should be able to handle it.

And didn't you do this fancy ammonia cycling first? Where would now come this cycle from?

LF, you don't think I remember your filter discussion , tetratech and I took part I think. I wouldn't call adding this filter overfiltration. More like adequate. I started out with the fluval 204, recommended for 40 gallons. I added the penguin 125(I know I said 150 earlier, sorry!) because I was underfiltering. The ammonia is coming from too much bioload for the filter to handle. It's too small for the tank. I started out on page 1 saying I might need another filter, and this whole time I was watching, thinking that same thought.

It's not cycling BTW. There's just a very small amount of ammonia that isn't able to be broken down. There is a lot of ammonia being broken down, but there's a limit on the filter and the tank, and I went past that. All the ammonia that IS getting broken down into nitrite is also getting broken down into nitrate, but the filter can't take all the ammonia, so it just sits there, and builds up inbetween water changes.

I'd say the tank is handling it, in the form of some weird hair algae stuff. I'd rather the extra filter handle it than the algae, just my opinion.

you are probably even cutting glass, sealing it together & building yourself a new tank out of recycled glass.

Well I have sort of done this already. For my sump I had to reseal the 30G that came before my 38G, which had busted. Every single peice of glass was removed cleaned and resiliconed. I also had glass cut for the divisions in the tank and had to seal those in there too. Not the same as making my own tank, but that process was bad enough that I haven't had thoughts of making my own tank since. I always used to think of building tanks. Not any more, that was a pain!

I really didn't make a filter, I just made the filter output a little longer so there wasn't any splashing. That's no big deal. Now making a filter would be pretty cool.

And no car building...except pinewood derby. I used to do those as a kid in boy scouts.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Watch PBS on Sunday nights. I think it is Sunday nights. I don't have a TV any more so I am a bit out of the loop.

http://www.cbc.ca/redgreen/ Check out the Handy Man Hall of Fame

Some reason I didn't see your post....sorry! I've seen those guys before, but didn't know what to call it. Unfortunately I didn't watch a lot of handyman stuff as a kid, or I'd probably be better at rigging things up on my own. Every time I start a project I have to figure out how to do it first.

Oh, and LF didn't ruin it this time. I'll let you guys know as soon as I get some pics of the first completed step and start a thread. That means it's *kinda* hobby related.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Oh, and LF didn't ruin it this time.

- Come on, I know that you want people to guess what it is

I believe you threw the *kinda* word in there to throw us off, it is fully hobby related is what I would think.

Hm, maybe a sump for the freshwater tank, with holes drilling and all that kind of stuff.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

My guess is a PVC Canister filter

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Come on, I know that you want people to guess what it is

But for the sake of surprise, I didn't give enough hints. Time's running out on the guessing.


And it really is only *kinda* hobby(fish that is) related. I wouldn't lie. I'm worried if I'll be able to post it up. Frank may have to delete it, joke Frank....please don't delete it. It does involve a fish tank so maybe it will slide.

Not a sump, and not a PVC cannister filter, though, I've thought of making a pvc housing for an in-line submersible heater. That's kind of similar. I think a pvc cannister filter would be pretty tough to make...or make well(and cheap) anyways. I can see using a mag drive(external pump) on the "out" side of the pvc filter so it stays clean. I guess using that large diameter thin walled stuff would be good, the hardest part would be bringing the fitting size down to 1/2 or 3/4 inch fittings though. That would be expensive unless there's only one part needed. and normally you have to buy a 10 foot peice of pvc. That's also expensive. I can't see that being cost effective, but it would be fun.

I'll go ahead and start up a thread in an hour or two. I gotta go take some photos.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Check this out

The Planted tank forum has great DIY journals.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

That's a very clean tank...equipment wise. All those unions and ball valves and fittings cost a fortune though. My guess is that if he didn't have a bunch of it lying around, is that he spent over $100 on plumbing alone. Might be worth it though. I know if I had the cash I'd make a clean tank like that, but it wouldn't do that to any silly 37 gallon tank. That's like a waste of time IMO . I'm thinking the tall and wide 120. But that's for another day.

Good link wings.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

We;ve gotta introduce that guy in the link to tetratech!

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Back in the saddle!

...in the link to tetratech

I guess tetratech doesn't have much to say these days either



Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Perhaps, having perfected the large tank, and then the nano tank, he has moved on to more reefy pastures to begin his SW journey?

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Back in the saddle!

he has moved on to more reefy pastures to begin his SW journey?

And that would be enough reason for him to drop us like a Riccia Rock?

I don't think so, I believe he would have invited us to the dark side forum to take a peak. But maybe he wants to set up his tank first and then come around.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I really didn't know what the guy had into it but it sure looks nice. DIY doesn't always save money, sometimes it just makes things better.

I'm thinking the tall and wide 120. But that's for another day.

Are you talking about the 5 foot x 18" or the 4 foot x 2 foot. The discus tank at work is the 5 foot 120. It is a pretty nice tank but I really think I would like to do a 4 foot 120. It doesn't take up much space and you could take a bath in it!

drop us like a Riccia Rock

Nice wording!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

drop us like a Riccia Rock?

But I haven't seen him on the dark side, so I don't think that's the case.

I'm talking the 4 foot 120. 24" front to back is a lot of nice scaping room.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Yeah the 4 foot 120 looks like it would be a sweet tank to play with. Someday I hope to get my hands on one.



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Time for an update. This last week or two I added a filter. I used aquaclear media simply because I like their media more, but I like the penguin filters, so I combine the two. Works great with the sponge jammed to the right side(water flows past this first), and the ceramic rings on the left(tetratech would love this setup, as water hangs out in this area for longer than normal, contact time). The filter bottomed out the CO2, even after I reduced splashing with a rigged up eggcrate extended output thingamabob. Since that failed, I had to think of something else. I had half an aquaclear sponge left over cause I bought a size too big to fit in the filter. I cut a hole in that and slid it up onto the eggcrate thingamabob and the water flows through the whole sponge, slowly, before entering the tank water. Now it works like a trickle filter, with absolutely no splashing. Cool, and the CO2 is back up to where it was previously.

So, onto the rest of the tank. The glosso has been filling in the upper portion of the glossofalls wonderfully(except for the hair algae), but growth is real verticle at the bottom, and leaves are browning falling off the glosso, indicating to me a lack of light. I guess I'll have to abandon the glosso down there and try to cover up with something less light demanding. Growth is good everywhere else in the tank, and a bit of weird hair algae remains, but seems to be already diminishing. I haven't gotten to trimming anything, so you'll be seeing the overgrown look.

First I promised a pic of something that looks not-so-hot in my tank, here's a shot of the hair algae on the glosso at the top of the falls:


The rest are just different angles on the tank, I didn't take any other closeups:










Enjoy

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

Wow your tank is filing out nice! I have never really kept a lot of plants that spread out nice like that so I haven't experinced a fill out like many others have.

Looks great! Any ideas for dark area plants? Crypts?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

looking good, I like the beware of attack fish sign

-Vincent

I haven't gotten to trimming anything, so you'll be seeing the overgrown look.

I like the overgrown look. It makes where the fall/slope joins the flat part look so much more natural. They just flow together so smoothly. If it doesn't cause too many shading problems, I'd leave it a little overgrown.

I like these shots the best.

Cheers
TW

Thanks guys, yeah I like the overgrown look too, but I'll probably hack it all down in a couple days - it does tend to shade out the bottom of the falls, that's why I wanted to post up pics.

I'm not real sure what I can put there wings. The glosso in the foreground seems to be getting enough light so I want to leave it there. I'm thinking some kind of moss might be the only low light plant I can put on the falls that won't shade out the glosso in the foreground. Anybody know if there's a lighter shade of green colored moss? Something closer to the glosso?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Sorry Matty, no moss expert here

Otherwise, the tank looks very nice, seems to almost have reached the max of what you can have in mass already (not the species though.

Yes, beware of the glosso overgrow, I cannot state this often enough as I don't want you to go the Ingo route with it. Having hair algae in it is not a good thing, I would assume that a major trim would be needed in that area to remove most of it. Bummer

I like the little red group maybe when it grows some more you could half a stem or two and make the group a little larger.

Have fun,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks LF, I think tank conditions(trace ammonia) provided the hair algae growing conditions. I also think I corrected that. Hopefully it's on its way out. Don't worry, I'm listening to you about the growth layers...but it hasn't happened yet. I'll keep an eye out, I promise. I'll see about the red group. I've already trimmed it a few times, and I wasn't really tempted to make the group larger. I've just been trimming a couple inches off the bottom and replanting.

I was thinking today...how do you guys feel about some anubias nana petite down in the shaded area?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

how do you guys feel about some anubias nana petite down in the shaded area?

Basically, doesn't sound like a bad idea, but I wouldn't be me if I would not have a word of caution:

- First, you would need quite a few there, let's say at least 5 in order to have a small group (no, I do know that Anubias are not schooling plants ). The cheapest access I ever had to Petite was $7 a piece, so that's $35 plus shipping.
- Depending how shaded the area is, they may not make an impression anyway. Did you know that I have 5 Petites in front of my big log in the 125? One cannot even see them in the shade of the NL Java Fern.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a moss link for you! Odds of finding the stuff you want though are probably slim.

http://www.aquamoss.net/Moss-List.htm


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

First, you would need quite a few there, let's say at least 5 in order to have a small group (no, I do know that Anubias are not schooling plants ). The cheapest access I ever had to Petite was $7 a piece, so that's $35 plus shipping.

Well I do have some plant buying money, LF. I was thinkging of getting 7-8.

They'll be easily seen there, I think. I'm not thinking that will be a problem. It's too dark for glosso, but I think there will be plenty of light for the anubias. I'd even give it a 2wpg rating when both lights are on(the pictures are with just one light on).

Thanks for the moss link wings, I'll check that out before I make up my mind on the anubias.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

That's it, I'm officially starting the "Free Matty's Glosso Brigade."

Trim that stargrass or whatever it is that's eating up the glosso on the bottom of the death star! Let the glosso grow free and roam! It's starting to fill in perfectly over there. For the hair algae, I would hold off on the a. petite nana and spend that money on a bulk order of Amano shrimp. They'll eat it, just in a tank that large you'd need quite a few, say 20-30.

I really wish I could find a copy of Amano's "Hill Rug" online, it's just what you're going for.

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Back in the saddle!

<-- Wonders where that money came from

Anyway, I was not really concerned that the Petites would not get enough light there. It was more that the spot is so dark that it will not be noticable from the front of the tank, at least in the pictures. I will post some shots of my 125 tonight and maybe you see what I mean.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I did a major hack job on everything today, so you'll be happy nowher. I took out about 40 of the largest tenellus and some star grass to take to the store for $$. That still left maybe 20-30 little ones to replant with. I couldn't beleive how many were in there. In another month I'll be in the same position again.

Hmm...I'd think the petite would be noticeable there, but what I'm more concerned about I guess is that they'll grow and cover the mesh and pvc.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I haven't done any updating here because I'm not really pleased with the tank right now, but thought I'd fill everybody in anyways.

The reasons I'm not pleased with this tank are that fish are dropping off, I only have 3/8 of the featherfins left, 2/4 otos from what I can tell, and 5/6 of the furcatas. I still have all the praecox but a couple of the females don't look too hot and the males lack color. I haven't seen the petricola cats in ages.

In addition I'm still having algae troubles, mainly on the glossofalls, but it's also spreading a bit everywhere else and requires harvesting every week.

I did a big water change today and pruned stuff and harvested hair algae, and cleaned the glass, so all in all it's looking pretty good so I took a picture. Here 'tis:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Now that is a bummer

I am wining about the loss of one fish and you loose at the same time about half your tank population without saying anything.

What are the symptoms in the rainbows? I remember that I lost my 3 female dwarfs within a matter of a few weeks, all became sluggish and started to breathe heavy, then developed dropsy, and then were removed from the tank.

The hair algae is hard to get rid off, I have a major issue with it in my 29G and even the best harvesting can not eliminate it and within a matter of 1 to 2 weeks it is back. Remember that I said you really have to give the glosso a major trim to get rid of the embedded algae? I think this would be the only way to remove it.

Otherwise, the tank looks very green, although all green is of the same color shade. There may be a chance to introduce some darker plant.

Sorry again for all the troubles,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So sorry about the fish loss, Matty. I hope the bad run is finished now.

It goes without saying that your tank is looking really good. Even though you say there is algae, it doesn't show in the pics & it all looks great in there.

Fingers crossed for your remaining fish

Cheers
TW

Well I saw a third oto so that's good news I wasn't positive I'd lost 2 of those as they can be tricky to spot. Also after the trim I was able to spot one of the petricola cats, still in its home under the ludwigia. The other is probably still there as well.

The featherfins have been disappearing for a couple weeks I'd say now. The symptoms appear to me like one gets weak and skinny and then vanishes. Then it happens to another one. I can't say they are starving or if they are it's their fault. I feed very small foods for my small fish. Baby brine or cyclopeez once a day, and every other day I mix brine or mysis in with it for the preacox. The second feeding is flake, and I make sure some of the flakes are crushed up pretty good for them. I dunno, maybe I need 3 feedings a day to keep these guys healthy?

The other fish do well, eat with gusto and swim around normally. Even the healthy looking featherfins do until they get skinny. The preacox don't seem really colorful, but they seem to be doing alright anyways. At least none of them are missing. Nobody is sluggish or breathing heavy. I think with the preacox the females are getting harassed a bit by the males, and the males are getting harassed a bit by the other males(remember the "fighting" I talked about awhile ago in this thread. They never stopped). I guess it could be parasites or something for the featherfins because they don't show any external symptoms. But I can't say that I'm going to try to treat for anything. I almost wish I'd have stocked this tank with 20 tiger barbs instead .

I agree I need some contrast in there Ingo, but I'm not going to be putting in new plants until I beat back this hair algae. That may be until fish stop dieing though, cause I never find them, and that means ammonia. So I guess this tank will go on the back burner for now till things settle.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Good call on waiting with the new plants, control is better

About the dying fishies, again: Hm, the one thing I see in your last post is that you eat quite a meat heavy diet. I am not sure, but aren't most rainbows rather on the vegetarian side? Maybe that is why they get skinny. But on the other hand, there are enough threads in there that they could munch on if they wanted.

Just a thought,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I forgot to say the flakes were veggie flakes. That's all I ever use for flake food really, except my marine fish which hardly ever get flake anyways. I use frozen stuff for the meats like you said.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Lost track of this thread...

Sorry about the fish loss Matty, I hope the tide turns on that soon enough

As for the plants, I like the lower look But I'm still interested to see how long your patience will last with that tennellus. I love tennellus, and if the whole bottom of the tank was tenellus I would say go for it because that would be pretty neat, but when you're trying to keep it controlled in a small space that's going to become a bi-weekly ritual, weeding it out.

Very impressive pearl grass

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks nowherman

Unfortunately I've lost a couple more fish, including a male preacox. I think I might have gotten a bad batch of pvc or something like that and it might be leaching undesireables into the water. Could be internal parasites or who knows what else. Might be bad husbandry, but I'd argue with you about that. I'm thinking about tearing it down and starting fresh, but that won't be happening until xmas break maybe if at all. I barely have time to do the water changes every week much less to (re)set up a tank. Even the viv is on hold right now. If I do a tear down, I won't retry the falls. I'll do somthing entirely different. It would obviously include the tenellus whatever it is I do . And I can never lose patience with it. I just like it too much.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Tenellus Obsessor = Matty
Wisteria Dominator = Tetratech
Tank Redo Ingo Style = LITTLE_FISH

Who else is out there?

Anyway, sorry to hear about all the trouble that the tank seems to give you at the moment. I don't have any reasonable explanation on why things are the way they are, but I am most certain that there is no single culprit here. I would assume that the fish are/were sick (which would explain the deaths) and that it may have been better not to add all at once (may explain the algae). But hey, afterwards we are all wiser, aren't we?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey I want in with the names!

LF,
I think you are on to something with the too many fish right away and algae theory.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

The fish might be sick, but if they are, then I have no indicators as to what it is. They look active and healthy then I find one taking a nap in the pearl grass(if I find it at all). The only ones that look at all weak or anything were 2 of the featherfins, but those died shortly after I bought them, and well before the recent problems. I now only have 2 of those and they appear perfectly healthy. None of the praecox acted weird before I found one dead. I'm no disease and treatment expert, but I know a healthy/unhealthy fish when I look at it, even if I don't know why.

If the algae were only from putting too many fish in at once I wouldn't still have the problem. Especially since I have less fish now than I originally put in the tank(and more algae than the same). I've beat back algae before by dosing things right and upping the CO2 and what not. This time it doesn't seem to make a difference, but if the algae were the only problem I wouldn't be overly concerned, and I really don't mind a bit of hair algae, it's easy to harvest and grows pretty slow. IMO it's probably from fish dieing and not finding them, and the majority of the algae is about 6 inches away from the lights. The rest of the tank has some here and there. It's growing slower than the ludwigia glandulosa on the bottom of the tank, and I'd guess the ludwigia grows about 1 inch per week or two and there's only a little algae on the oldest couple leaves.

*shrugs*

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Sorry to hear of the continued bad luck.

I certainly hope that things pick up & you don't have to re-do the tank. It would be a shame to lose the waterfall after all your hard work.

Hope all improves. I agree with what's been said. Although I read an article about fishless cycling which said you can add all fish at once with this method, I wouldn't trust to do that myself. If you decide to re-stock this tank, maybe go back to the tried & true method of gradually stocking a tank over a period of six months.

Anyway, fingers & toes are crossed for a change of luck with the tank.

Cheers
TW

NowherMan6 - The Aquarist Formerly Known As Protist Collaborator

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Back in the saddle!

Matty,

Yeah, that sounds kind of strange, how they just drop dead all of a sudden. I know that my female rainbows showed at least a few days of weakness symptoms, with standing still in one spot, close to the surface. And 2 actually developed dropsy. Actually, none of mine died so sudden that I found them dead in the tank, they usually died because of my action to remove their "pain".

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matty, sorry for the fish loss.

Something must have shifted to lose all those fish in short order as well as your current algae issues. IMO the best way to avoid and combat problems is to do things slowly. I think most know this, but it's tough to resist when you see something good at the LFS. Algae like other forms of life at opportunisitic. The spores are there, just like parasites and other microscopic life forms. When conditions are right they come out and multiply. The biofilter, ecological balance in our tanks are very sensitive, they have to slowly adjust to any changes you make to the tank. Look at fish, when the temp changes quickly the fish can't adjust and they get sick, but the same fish will tolerate a temp shift if it comes about slowly. Your tank is the same way. When alot of fish are added at once (which means more food, more poop) the biofilter and other necessary components in the tank can't adjust either and creatures like algae get a foothold.

I think a full planted tank can hold alot of fish, but it needs to be stocked very sloooowly. Matty when you talk about all the food your feeding your fish to get them to eat, etc. it's very tough to invision your tank without algae. EI is an "Estimative Index" I don't think it matters if your off center that's the whold idea, you can be, it's estimative.




My Scapes

Matty when you talk about all the food your feeding your fish to get them to eat, etc. it's very tough to invision your tank without algae

I'm not overfeeding. The food gets eaten, and quickly. It's not hanging around in the tank. I'm not an overfeeder, I'm an underfeeder. My boss at work tells me to feed more, and he's usually telling people to feed less. Food is not the problem. It may have sounded like I feed a lot from my post above, sure I feed lots of types of food, that's called good husbandry. I'm not feeding lots of each type of food. I'm trying to slow the fish death carnage so I'm feeding them well(note well, not overfed) and doing waterchanges. Anyways, algae is a secondary concern right now as I said before and probably coming from all the fish I didn't find when they died(that would be a good foothold, right?). That's so likelly that I'm not really considering any other scenarios. It's not even all that bad, especially in the lower portion of the tank(read the majority) and especially compared to the loss of fish. Since I can't seem to do much about the loss of fish, I've got an experiment going that's controlling the light a bit directly over the glossofals area.

As far as something shifting to cause fish deaths, I agree, and I don't because it's not anything I can test for, and it's happening over an extended period of time. Also, the last change I made to the tank was 6 tiny little fish 3 weeks before I started having problems. I've ran temp, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PO4, pH, gH, and KH tests and had them double checked at work. I've tested at multiple times during the day and for the past couple weeks since the fish first started dieing. The only thing I did find was that my ammonia test is bad and gives a slight ammonia reading when there is nothing, but reads fine otherwise. I probably never even had to put on the extra filter. IMO it's either internal parasites or some odd chemical leaching from the supplies I used during setup. I've ruled out internal parasites in my own mind because the fish are never lethargic and only the 2 first threadfins got skinny. Even now the male rainbows are all displaying back and forth to the females.

Oh, and I'm not much for the EI - remember, I'm the micromanager of macronutrients.

Anywho, thanks for the condolences and opinoins, even if it seems I'm a stubborn blockhead unwilling to listen to good advice. I'm really taking all into consideration.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty, I'm not picking on you the whole point of my post was that there are less problems when things are done slowly. Who really knows exactly why a fish might succumb, maybe there are things needed in the whole balance of things that we can't measure, etc.

The food gets eaten, and quickly. It's not hanging around in the tank. I'm not an overfeeder, I'm an underfeeder.

.
See here's the thing. That's great and I'm sure you doing that. If your feeding those different foods for good husbandry it doesn't necessarily mean it works in a high-light planted tank setup. I have one rainbow in my tank and the thing eats and poops nonstop. None of the food makes it to the bottom of the tank, but what about the other end of the feeding process. If the fish are eating and none of the food is making it to the bottom aren't they pooping more.

IMO I don't think high fish loads and high light planted tanks mix. I'm not talking about your tank, but in general. It's very difficult to keep the organics in the tank down where the light won't fuel algae growth. If one wants to increase his chances of success the fish load must be extremely gradual.







My Scapes

I'm inclined to believe that sometimes fish just die I know in my 4G I had to purchase probably 10 or so Green Neon tetras before winding up with the final three that remained healthy. Wherever they're rasied - unless raised in small numbers in the tank of a hobbyist - many times they just don't cope well with transport to LFS, then transport to new tank. I've seen schools get shipped to an LFS in decent shape, then just die off. No one's fault really, maybe just poor genetics?

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Back in the saddle!

Food in doesn't equal poop out. It matters whether your fish eat the food or if it gets to the bottom. If it gets to the bottom and nobody eats it then the whole peice of food and all of it's nutritional value ends up as waste. However, if your fish eats it, a large portion of the nutritional value is stored and used for metabolic processes and growth and what not.

Other than that, I agree, and I was only trying to convey that I'm not overfeeding. I understand that the amount of food in a system can cause problems. But that doesn't have anything to do with the number of types of food I feed.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

This is what I hate about online forums. I think your misinterpreting what I'm saying. By the way are you a Taurus. Because I am

Food in doesn't equal poop out. It matters whether your fish eat the food or if it gets to the bottom. If it gets to the bottom and nobody eats it then the whole peice of food and all of it's nutritional value ends up as waste. However, if your fish eats it, a large portion of the nutritional value is stored and used for metabolic processes and growth and what not.

Thanks for the bio101 lesson. I agree with your statement (I was a bio major in colleague for two years), but not in relation planted aquaria. Let's take two identical tanks. They are exactly the same. One aquarist feeds their fish twice a day 7/days a week and other feeds their fish once a day (same amount each feeding) are you telling me the poop is the same. Doen't the fishes body only use what it can and the rest is waste. So if you agree with that there is more waste in the tank where the fish are feed twice a day. And that assumes all the food is eaten. Take it a step further and say the tank that is feed twice a day now has double the number of fish. Isn't there that much more waste accumulating in the tank compared to the other tank?

So would you agree it's harder to keep the tank that has double the fish and double the feeding clear of algae because of the built-up organics. Forget overfeeding/underfeeding I'm simply saying it's easier to maintain an algae free tank especially in high-light situations with less fish and less food going in. Who's to say what is overfeeding. Every tank is different, but when compared to a tank with less stock and less food your chances are better.





My Scapes

Nope I'm a leo...preeeow

I agree with what you said in the above.

Yes if you feed more it can lead to more algae. If there are more fish, the need to feed more is there too, and it's easier to get algae.

In a fairly empty tank(like mine is now ) there is less waste and less foods for algae.

I wasn't trying to disagree, just trying to point something out that needs to be taken into account IMO. This is what I was trying to point out. If you have two tanks that are fed the same amount, but one has a few more fish in it than the other. In the tank with more fish all the food is eaten. In the tank with less fish not all the food is eaten. The waste in these two tanks are not the same even though the food input is. The one with less fish and uneaten food will have more waste problems than the one with more fish and no uneaten food. However, if you were to feed both these tanks a certain amount per fish(so you are feeding the tank with more fish more food) then yes, the tank with more fish and more food input will have a greater succeptability(sp?) to algae.

That's all just an exception to the rule.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Agreed!!!

Geez, I post a few comments a week and I get into a debate about poop?

Where's LF? I guess I'll go pick on him for a while. Something about his flat 125g?

My Scapes

Matty, another Leo. Checked your profile and your BDay is 9 days before mine.

Cheers
TW

I knew we could come to some agreement this time.

At least I don't have to apologize to LF for cluttering up his log like last time.

So we decided that maybe my algae got a foothold because of my fishless cycle, but did we decide what to do about it now(without talking more about feeding, for the record I'll be continuing with 2 small feedings per day)?

Happy almost shared birfday robyn

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

but did we decide what to do about it now(without talking more about feeding, for the record I'll be continuing with 2 small feedings per day)?
O.K. I can't mention feeding, can I say nutriential servings

I guess the only thing to do is reduce lighting if possible to 6 hours and don't add anymore stock.

My Scapes

don't add anymore stock.

The thought hadn't crossed my mind

I'll bring the lights down a bit then I think I'm at 9 hrs right now.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Where's LF?

I am right here, just happen to have had all day meetings and such fun things. So this is what happens when I leave you guys alone for two days, wars are declared, alliances between birthsigns are formed, poop is thrown around, and what not

Anyway, glad that you guys at least agree somewhat on what may be the cause. All of this does not explain the deaths though. I am with NowherMan6, sometimes fish just die. But not in a short interval with zero sign of sickness. That is mindboggeling. Unfixable stress from shipping?

Oh, I am an archer (sagittarius, or how do you spell that), so no funny business here, ok?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

While we are at it....

Aries (Mar 21- Apr 19) - is the cardinal/fire sign. Aries people need to keep physically busy. They accomplish many things simply because of their restless energy. They need to learn how to make constructive use of their energetic efforts. The typical Aries urge is to take on more than can be done reasonably well. Though others may find it difficult to keep pace with an Aries, they are attracted to their animation and spirited personality.

This seems to make sense right about now in my life...

At this point Matty I wouldn't make any large changes just to see what happens. Once you start making changes, who knows what the causes are.


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

But not in a short interval with zero sign of sickness

I think it can happen. If these fish were relatively new stock, i.e. only at the store for a few days before being brought home, I can see them dying off in large numbers. Call it poor genetics of the fish, stress from relocation, whatever. I just think it happens sometimes.

Heck, look at tetra and his cardinals pre-UV. His would just turn up dead, as I remember. Some fish are just weaker and can't deal.

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Back in the saddle!

Nah, I never buy fish at the store when they just come in. The threadfins I remember were in the store for at least 2-3 months and the praecox were in at least one month. The furcatas were there a very long time, as I remember I didn't want to buy them as tiny as they were. They probably nearly doubled in size at the store before I bought them. For some reason rainbows aren't the most popular fish in the store, I guess.

These fish shipped fine and were never treated for anything at the store, they were fine there too. Then they spent a good monnth or more in my tank before they decided to start kicking off.

It's something about my tank conditions that these fish aren't pleased with. There's no doubt about that. Weak fish, maybe, but they sure looked good for a while.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

That changes everything then. It's interesting.

Maybe some species just need to be in an established tank to thrive? And maybe there's more to an established tank than 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrite? I don't know

The second question, of course, is how a school of threadfin rainbows managed to stay unbought for 2-3 months

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Back in the saddle!

I dunno how they didn't get sold, it's not like they are that expensive at $5 each. A lot of our customer base doesn't really know what's up. "I want something colorful" "gee those, umm...they aren't...colorful? " I get frustrated with the customers at times, if you can't tell. Those are the costomers that usually end up buying dalmation mollies, perhaps one of the least colorful fish ever. I guess I shouldn't talk though, I can't even keep the rainbows alive.

Yep, maybe I should have stocked with something less sensitive, but that doesn't IMO explain why they are still dieing. The tank is what I'd call established now or even a month or more ago, and that's when they started dieing. I guess I'm just going to have to wait it out with waterchanges. If I end up with no fish left in a couple months, I'll know that I need to change everything.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matt... don't stress put too much about them. I had problems keeping the furcatas and threadfins alive for a while too. I gave up on the furcatas and now i have threadfins and gertrudes, which are finally doing fine, despite occasional neglect.

I think dwarf rainbows just tend to be weak. They're little fish. Maybe there's something going on inside their tiny bodies that we simply just don't understand yet, despite our best efforts. I think eventually your stock will thin to a few strong guys that will never die. Things just have to sort themselves out.

Thanks Nate, hopefully that's the case and they are just weak. I just get upset about it because I haven't had a problem with fish dieing in 5 or 6 yrs.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well I got my new camera, and was giving it a whirl on the 50g tank. I haven't quite got it down yet, but I'm feeling confident I will after another couple sessions. Right now I only have the 16mb card that came with the camera, so I get like 10 pics at a time, so I haven't gone all out yet because of the back and forth to the computer thing. I'll be getting a bigger card for xmas. I can't help but like this camera 100X more than my old one already. So much easier to get good pics. The one thing I'm really having to re-learn is basically the right settings to get the right light and shutter speed and whatnot. Everything else is cake. So on to the pics I guess.

Here's the outcome of photo shoot 1 and 2:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

And here's another sampling:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Nice pictures Matt! I can't wait to see them after you have every thing figured out with the new camera.

The colors seem to look pretty realistic with this camera. Nothing is overly bright or too dark. Nice work my friend. BTW what did you get for a camera.

Your red plant is a type of ludwigia right? I really like how deep red that plant is.



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Nice Matty, It's a shame you don't know how to use the camera

I really like the first pic and the one with the big pearl.
Your rainbow pics will give LF a run for the money.



My Scapes

Thanks Guys, I think LF's pics of the rainbows are better than mine, cause he caught them shining blue, I've yet been able to do that. I also have some pics of my salt tank. Go check those out cause nobody else will. I've been talking to myself over there for the last couple months. I'm having a little harder time taking clean, properly colored pics of stuff in that tank, so the pics aren't quite as good.

I ended up taking your advice tetratech, and I got an IS. I also kept with the smaller point and shoot style too. The camera is a canon A710 IS. It had all the features I wanted, IS, big 6x zoom, manual focus, large viewing screen, super macro, and all that other fun stuff. I found it going as cheap as the a630 and no shipping charge, so I couldn't pass it up.

I have to admit tetratech, the IS is a pretty cool feature, one that would be impossible to pass up now that I've experienced it first hand. Glad I listened to you that much.

And yes the red plant in my tank is the ludwigia glandulosa. It's gotta be one of my favorite red plants, not too difficult to grow either.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I have to admit tetratech, the IS is a pretty cool feature, one that would be impossible to pass up now that I've experienced it first hand. Glad I listened to you that much.

Glad you take my recovery room advice.

Anyway, great camera, I'm sure you'll have a good time with it. If you haven't upgraded your memory card you might want to consider this. http://www.amazon.com/Sandisk-SDSDPH-1024-901-Ultra-Retail-Package/dp/B0009HTB0Y/sr=1-2/qid=1163782146/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-1830850-9147837?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

It rotates into a USB connection, so you don't have to worry about a card reader or attaching a cable. I've had one for about 4 months and it works great.

My Scapes

Glad you take my recovery room advice.

Hey! So far I've turned the lights down and haven't bought any fish, despite seeing some nice stuff at work every week.


Wow that's a pretty cool little gadget. I'll look into getting one of those. Right now I just plug the camera into the computer, which isn't too much of a hassle, but I'm sure that would be easier.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

AHEM! full tank shot, please, full tank

:: cough cough ::

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Back in the saddle!

You have to at least comment on the pictures already posted to request a full tank shot nowher .... where's your nettiquite?

Anyways, I have to wait until the second light comes on or else the pics come out dark. I'll post it up later.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I second the l. glandulosa shot... it looks amazing back-lit. You should let it grow to the surface and creep sideways a little to give that corner a reddish cast.

Your pics are so clear now. Very nice.

Is that good "nettiquite". Can I ask for a full shot now please?

Cheers
TW

Is that good "nettiquite". Can I ask for a full shot now please?

Yes, and thanks for the nice comments. Sorry I've haven't gotten around to taking this pic. I've switched gears over to the viv again. I'll get to it in the next couple days, I promise.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi Matt,
I was looking at those pictures and the tank is indeed
beautiful and the photography stunning.
It got me thinking... You know, that eighth picture.
The solitary picture of the red plant, properly cropped
would make an amazing avatar.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

The solitary picture of the red plant, properly cropped
would make an amazing avatar.

Thanks for the comments Frank. I think it would make a nice avatar as well, but then I can't be the tenellus obsessor. I couldn't decide how much to crop it in the first place This is what the original looks like, how would you crop it?:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Nice detail shots, but I miss the overall that shows the destruction you mentioned a while ago, aka algae.

And nice new camera work there, too

Hey, as a side note, when looking at your Pearl Grass shot, seems like we both do not have MM but HM. I saw last week some Amano Pearl Grass and it looks different, like only two leaves per node and not like a rosette like we have

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club