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Thanks Robyn.


Well I'm still getting some weird algaes, so yesterday I decided to run some tests. pH was 6.6, KH was 6 for a CO2 of 45ppm. Nitrates were a bit above 10ppm. Nitrites were 0, but the weird thing was I had a tiny tiny amount of ammonia. It wasn't really a measurable amount, but it wasn't clear either. So I decided that my 204 isn't going to cut it, and I put a penguin 150 on the back of the tank. Turns out it doesn't fit over the edge real well and the output doesn't go down to the water line, so there is lot's of splashing. I immediately turned it off because I wanted CO2 in the tank. So today I have to jimmy rig some sort of extra output contraption.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ahhh, Mr Fix-it & do it yourself Matty. Now we would expect you to be the one to jimmy rig some sort of contraption

Cheers
TW

Matty,

It seems to me that you are having tanks only so you can build stuff

Anyway - That sounds a little fishy to me. How can it be that you have ammonia but no nitrites? Under normal conditions, wouldn't that mean that your tank is at the beginning of a cycle? If I am not mistaken, don't plants like ammonia as food much more than nitrate? What do you think?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matty,

You must watched a lot of red green when you were growing up.

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Ahhh, Mr Fix-it & do it yourself Matty. Now we would expect you to be the one to jimmy rig some sort of contraption

Well I used some eggcrate, aka light diffuser, and siliconed that to the output of of the penguin. looks like a mess, but I think it should work well. I'm going to let it continue to cure for the rest of today, and I'm going to pick up some filter cartridges while I'm at work.

It seems to me that you are having tanks only so you can build stuff

Isn't that half the fun?

You must watched a lot of red green when you were growing up.

I have no idea what red green is We talking about stop lights?

That sounds a little fishy to me. How can it be that you have ammonia but no nitrites? Under normal conditions, wouldn't that mean that your tank is at the beginning of a cycle? If I am not mistaken, don't plants like ammonia as food much more than nitrate? What do you think?

Well anytime I've seen an incomplete cycle(either underfiltration, overfeeding, over stocking), it's always ammonia, and sometimes nitrite, sometimes not. I've seen more samples of water while working at the Fish Place than I care to mention. For the most part people who use whispers always have trace levels of ammonia without nitrite(because you HAVE to trash the filter media every month). Same with the people that have aquaclears that go heavy on the cleaning. The people who have ammonia and nitrite seem not to take care of their tanks(no water changes, gravel vacs, filter maint.) at all and over feed/over stock. But I'm talking a real slight level of ammonia. If I didn't think there was anything there I woldn't have taken it into full light, put it on a white background....that sort of thing. It's not even enough that the fish are concerned about it, which is why I was a bit surprised. All the fish are really active and always begging for food. It's all just anectodal observation, so I'm sure some more scientific approach could negate everything I said there.
I bet you are right too about the ammonia, it would probably be worse, but the plants and algae are using some of it. Hopefully the filter will clean things up and help take care of the algae. If this doesn't work, I'm going to have to seriously look at my ferts and lighting, but I think I'm good there. The worst of it is on the glosso especially up towards the right. The chain swords have some on the older leaves, but the baby's tears and star grass seem immune, probably cause they grow so fast.


If you guys think think I like to DIY stuff, wait till you see my new project...it's already underway.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi,
I'm afraid to ask!

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

wait till you see my new project...it's already underway

Either a hood for the tank or you build yourself a car

Anyway - As I am no longer opposed to overfiltration (see my 125 in the last 20 pages to follow filter discussion) I would say that you can always add this filter. But for the traces of ammonia, I would assume that your tank in itself (you know, plants and stuff) should be able to handle it.

And didn't you do this fancy ammonia cycling first? Where would now come this cycle from?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Not only are you making a hood and rigging up a filter - you are probably even cutting glass, sealing it together & building yourself a new tank out of recycled glass.

After that, you will build the car Ingo mentions.

Cheers
TW

You must watched a lot of red green when you were growing up

Watch PBS on Sunday nights. I think it is Sunday nights. I don't have a TV any more so I am a bit out of the loop.

http://www.cbc.ca/redgreen/ Check out the Handy Man Hall of Fame

If you guys think think I like to DIY stuff, wait till you see my new project...it's already underway

Can you use your old car for it?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Anyway - As I am no longer opposed to overfiltration (see my 125 in the last 20 pages to follow filter discussion) I would say that you can always add this filter. But for the traces of ammonia, I would assume that your tank in itself (you know, plants and stuff) should be able to handle it.

And didn't you do this fancy ammonia cycling first? Where would now come this cycle from?

LF, you don't think I remember your filter discussion , tetratech and I took part I think. I wouldn't call adding this filter overfiltration. More like adequate. I started out with the fluval 204, recommended for 40 gallons. I added the penguin 125(I know I said 150 earlier, sorry!) because I was underfiltering. The ammonia is coming from too much bioload for the filter to handle. It's too small for the tank. I started out on page 1 saying I might need another filter, and this whole time I was watching, thinking that same thought.

It's not cycling BTW. There's just a very small amount of ammonia that isn't able to be broken down. There is a lot of ammonia being broken down, but there's a limit on the filter and the tank, and I went past that. All the ammonia that IS getting broken down into nitrite is also getting broken down into nitrate, but the filter can't take all the ammonia, so it just sits there, and builds up inbetween water changes.

I'd say the tank is handling it, in the form of some weird hair algae stuff. I'd rather the extra filter handle it than the algae, just my opinion.

you are probably even cutting glass, sealing it together & building yourself a new tank out of recycled glass.

Well I have sort of done this already. For my sump I had to reseal the 30G that came before my 38G, which had busted. Every single peice of glass was removed cleaned and resiliconed. I also had glass cut for the divisions in the tank and had to seal those in there too. Not the same as making my own tank, but that process was bad enough that I haven't had thoughts of making my own tank since. I always used to think of building tanks. Not any more, that was a pain!

I really didn't make a filter, I just made the filter output a little longer so there wasn't any splashing. That's no big deal. Now making a filter would be pretty cool.

And no car building...except pinewood derby. I used to do those as a kid in boy scouts.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Watch PBS on Sunday nights. I think it is Sunday nights. I don't have a TV any more so I am a bit out of the loop.

http://www.cbc.ca/redgreen/ Check out the Handy Man Hall of Fame

Some reason I didn't see your post....sorry! I've seen those guys before, but didn't know what to call it. Unfortunately I didn't watch a lot of handyman stuff as a kid, or I'd probably be better at rigging things up on my own. Every time I start a project I have to figure out how to do it first.

Oh, and LF didn't ruin it this time. I'll let you guys know as soon as I get some pics of the first completed step and start a thread. That means it's *kinda* hobby related.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Oh, and LF didn't ruin it this time.

- Come on, I know that you want people to guess what it is

I believe you threw the *kinda* word in there to throw us off, it is fully hobby related is what I would think.

Hm, maybe a sump for the freshwater tank, with holes drilling and all that kind of stuff.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

My guess is a PVC Canister filter

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Come on, I know that you want people to guess what it is

But for the sake of surprise, I didn't give enough hints. Time's running out on the guessing.


And it really is only *kinda* hobby(fish that is) related. I wouldn't lie. I'm worried if I'll be able to post it up. Frank may have to delete it, joke Frank....please don't delete it. It does involve a fish tank so maybe it will slide.

Not a sump, and not a PVC cannister filter, though, I've thought of making a pvc housing for an in-line submersible heater. That's kind of similar. I think a pvc cannister filter would be pretty tough to make...or make well(and cheap) anyways. I can see using a mag drive(external pump) on the "out" side of the pvc filter so it stays clean. I guess using that large diameter thin walled stuff would be good, the hardest part would be bringing the fitting size down to 1/2 or 3/4 inch fittings though. That would be expensive unless there's only one part needed. and normally you have to buy a 10 foot peice of pvc. That's also expensive. I can't see that being cost effective, but it would be fun.

I'll go ahead and start up a thread in an hour or two. I gotta go take some photos.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Check this out

The Planted tank forum has great DIY journals.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

That's a very clean tank...equipment wise. All those unions and ball valves and fittings cost a fortune though. My guess is that if he didn't have a bunch of it lying around, is that he spent over $100 on plumbing alone. Might be worth it though. I know if I had the cash I'd make a clean tank like that, but it wouldn't do that to any silly 37 gallon tank. That's like a waste of time IMO . I'm thinking the tall and wide 120. But that's for another day.

Good link wings.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

We;ve gotta introduce that guy in the link to tetratech!

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Back in the saddle!

...in the link to tetratech

I guess tetratech doesn't have much to say these days either



Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Perhaps, having perfected the large tank, and then the nano tank, he has moved on to more reefy pastures to begin his SW journey?

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Back in the saddle!

he has moved on to more reefy pastures to begin his SW journey?

And that would be enough reason for him to drop us like a Riccia Rock?

I don't think so, I believe he would have invited us to the dark side forum to take a peak. But maybe he wants to set up his tank first and then come around.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I really didn't know what the guy had into it but it sure looks nice. DIY doesn't always save money, sometimes it just makes things better.

I'm thinking the tall and wide 120. But that's for another day.

Are you talking about the 5 foot x 18" or the 4 foot x 2 foot. The discus tank at work is the 5 foot 120. It is a pretty nice tank but I really think I would like to do a 4 foot 120. It doesn't take up much space and you could take a bath in it!

drop us like a Riccia Rock

Nice wording!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

drop us like a Riccia Rock?

But I haven't seen him on the dark side, so I don't think that's the case.

I'm talking the 4 foot 120. 24" front to back is a lot of nice scaping room.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Yeah the 4 foot 120 looks like it would be a sweet tank to play with. Someday I hope to get my hands on one.



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Time for an update. This last week or two I added a filter. I used aquaclear media simply because I like their media more, but I like the penguin filters, so I combine the two. Works great with the sponge jammed to the right side(water flows past this first), and the ceramic rings on the left(tetratech would love this setup, as water hangs out in this area for longer than normal, contact time). The filter bottomed out the CO2, even after I reduced splashing with a rigged up eggcrate extended output thingamabob. Since that failed, I had to think of something else. I had half an aquaclear sponge left over cause I bought a size too big to fit in the filter. I cut a hole in that and slid it up onto the eggcrate thingamabob and the water flows through the whole sponge, slowly, before entering the tank water. Now it works like a trickle filter, with absolutely no splashing. Cool, and the CO2 is back up to where it was previously.

So, onto the rest of the tank. The glosso has been filling in the upper portion of the glossofalls wonderfully(except for the hair algae), but growth is real verticle at the bottom, and leaves are browning falling off the glosso, indicating to me a lack of light. I guess I'll have to abandon the glosso down there and try to cover up with something less light demanding. Growth is good everywhere else in the tank, and a bit of weird hair algae remains, but seems to be already diminishing. I haven't gotten to trimming anything, so you'll be seeing the overgrown look.

First I promised a pic of something that looks not-so-hot in my tank, here's a shot of the hair algae on the glosso at the top of the falls:


The rest are just different angles on the tank, I didn't take any other closeups:










Enjoy

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

Wow your tank is filing out nice! I have never really kept a lot of plants that spread out nice like that so I haven't experinced a fill out like many others have.

Looks great! Any ideas for dark area plants? Crypts?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

looking good, I like the beware of attack fish sign

-Vincent

I haven't gotten to trimming anything, so you'll be seeing the overgrown look.

I like the overgrown look. It makes where the fall/slope joins the flat part look so much more natural. They just flow together so smoothly. If it doesn't cause too many shading problems, I'd leave it a little overgrown.

I like these shots the best.

Cheers
TW

Thanks guys, yeah I like the overgrown look too, but I'll probably hack it all down in a couple days - it does tend to shade out the bottom of the falls, that's why I wanted to post up pics.

I'm not real sure what I can put there wings. The glosso in the foreground seems to be getting enough light so I want to leave it there. I'm thinking some kind of moss might be the only low light plant I can put on the falls that won't shade out the glosso in the foreground. Anybody know if there's a lighter shade of green colored moss? Something closer to the glosso?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Sorry Matty, no moss expert here

Otherwise, the tank looks very nice, seems to almost have reached the max of what you can have in mass already (not the species though.

Yes, beware of the glosso overgrow, I cannot state this often enough as I don't want you to go the Ingo route with it. Having hair algae in it is not a good thing, I would assume that a major trim would be needed in that area to remove most of it. Bummer

I like the little red group maybe when it grows some more you could half a stem or two and make the group a little larger.

Have fun,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks LF, I think tank conditions(trace ammonia) provided the hair algae growing conditions. I also think I corrected that. Hopefully it's on its way out. Don't worry, I'm listening to you about the growth layers...but it hasn't happened yet. I'll keep an eye out, I promise. I'll see about the red group. I've already trimmed it a few times, and I wasn't really tempted to make the group larger. I've just been trimming a couple inches off the bottom and replanting.

I was thinking today...how do you guys feel about some anubias nana petite down in the shaded area?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

how do you guys feel about some anubias nana petite down in the shaded area?

Basically, doesn't sound like a bad idea, but I wouldn't be me if I would not have a word of caution:

- First, you would need quite a few there, let's say at least 5 in order to have a small group (no, I do know that Anubias are not schooling plants ). The cheapest access I ever had to Petite was $7 a piece, so that's $35 plus shipping.
- Depending how shaded the area is, they may not make an impression anyway. Did you know that I have 5 Petites in front of my big log in the 125? One cannot even see them in the shade of the NL Java Fern.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a moss link for you! Odds of finding the stuff you want though are probably slim.

http://www.aquamoss.net/Moss-List.htm


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

First, you would need quite a few there, let's say at least 5 in order to have a small group (no, I do know that Anubias are not schooling plants ). The cheapest access I ever had to Petite was $7 a piece, so that's $35 plus shipping.

Well I do have some plant buying money, LF. I was thinkging of getting 7-8.

They'll be easily seen there, I think. I'm not thinking that will be a problem. It's too dark for glosso, but I think there will be plenty of light for the anubias. I'd even give it a 2wpg rating when both lights are on(the pictures are with just one light on).

Thanks for the moss link wings, I'll check that out before I make up my mind on the anubias.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

That's it, I'm officially starting the "Free Matty's Glosso Brigade."

Trim that stargrass or whatever it is that's eating up the glosso on the bottom of the death star! Let the glosso grow free and roam! It's starting to fill in perfectly over there. For the hair algae, I would hold off on the a. petite nana and spend that money on a bulk order of Amano shrimp. They'll eat it, just in a tank that large you'd need quite a few, say 20-30.

I really wish I could find a copy of Amano's "Hill Rug" online, it's just what you're going for.

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Back in the saddle!

<-- Wonders where that money came from

Anyway, I was not really concerned that the Petites would not get enough light there. It was more that the spot is so dark that it will not be noticable from the front of the tank, at least in the pictures. I will post some shots of my 125 tonight and maybe you see what I mean.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I did a major hack job on everything today, so you'll be happy nowher. I took out about 40 of the largest tenellus and some star grass to take to the store for $$. That still left maybe 20-30 little ones to replant with. I couldn't beleive how many were in there. In another month I'll be in the same position again.

Hmm...I'd think the petite would be noticeable there, but what I'm more concerned about I guess is that they'll grow and cover the mesh and pvc.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I haven't done any updating here because I'm not really pleased with the tank right now, but thought I'd fill everybody in anyways.

The reasons I'm not pleased with this tank are that fish are dropping off, I only have 3/8 of the featherfins left, 2/4 otos from what I can tell, and 5/6 of the furcatas. I still have all the praecox but a couple of the females don't look too hot and the males lack color. I haven't seen the petricola cats in ages.

In addition I'm still having algae troubles, mainly on the glossofalls, but it's also spreading a bit everywhere else and requires harvesting every week.

I did a big water change today and pruned stuff and harvested hair algae, and cleaned the glass, so all in all it's looking pretty good so I took a picture. Here 'tis:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Now that is a bummer

I am wining about the loss of one fish and you loose at the same time about half your tank population without saying anything.

What are the symptoms in the rainbows? I remember that I lost my 3 female dwarfs within a matter of a few weeks, all became sluggish and started to breathe heavy, then developed dropsy, and then were removed from the tank.

The hair algae is hard to get rid off, I have a major issue with it in my 29G and even the best harvesting can not eliminate it and within a matter of 1 to 2 weeks it is back. Remember that I said you really have to give the glosso a major trim to get rid of the embedded algae? I think this would be the only way to remove it.

Otherwise, the tank looks very green, although all green is of the same color shade. There may be a chance to introduce some darker plant.

Sorry again for all the troubles,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So sorry about the fish loss, Matty. I hope the bad run is finished now.

It goes without saying that your tank is looking really good. Even though you say there is algae, it doesn't show in the pics & it all looks great in there.

Fingers crossed for your remaining fish

Cheers
TW

Well I saw a third oto so that's good news I wasn't positive I'd lost 2 of those as they can be tricky to spot. Also after the trim I was able to spot one of the petricola cats, still in its home under the ludwigia. The other is probably still there as well.

The featherfins have been disappearing for a couple weeks I'd say now. The symptoms appear to me like one gets weak and skinny and then vanishes. Then it happens to another one. I can't say they are starving or if they are it's their fault. I feed very small foods for my small fish. Baby brine or cyclopeez once a day, and every other day I mix brine or mysis in with it for the preacox. The second feeding is flake, and I make sure some of the flakes are crushed up pretty good for them. I dunno, maybe I need 3 feedings a day to keep these guys healthy?

The other fish do well, eat with gusto and swim around normally. Even the healthy looking featherfins do until they get skinny. The preacox don't seem really colorful, but they seem to be doing alright anyways. At least none of them are missing. Nobody is sluggish or breathing heavy. I think with the preacox the females are getting harassed a bit by the males, and the males are getting harassed a bit by the other males(remember the "fighting" I talked about awhile ago in this thread. They never stopped). I guess it could be parasites or something for the featherfins because they don't show any external symptoms. But I can't say that I'm going to try to treat for anything. I almost wish I'd have stocked this tank with 20 tiger barbs instead .

I agree I need some contrast in there Ingo, but I'm not going to be putting in new plants until I beat back this hair algae. That may be until fish stop dieing though, cause I never find them, and that means ammonia. So I guess this tank will go on the back burner for now till things settle.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Good call on waiting with the new plants, control is better

About the dying fishies, again: Hm, the one thing I see in your last post is that you eat quite a meat heavy diet. I am not sure, but aren't most rainbows rather on the vegetarian side? Maybe that is why they get skinny. But on the other hand, there are enough threads in there that they could munch on if they wanted.

Just a thought,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I forgot to say the flakes were veggie flakes. That's all I ever use for flake food really, except my marine fish which hardly ever get flake anyways. I use frozen stuff for the meats like you said.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Lost track of this thread...

Sorry about the fish loss Matty, I hope the tide turns on that soon enough

As for the plants, I like the lower look But I'm still interested to see how long your patience will last with that tennellus. I love tennellus, and if the whole bottom of the tank was tenellus I would say go for it because that would be pretty neat, but when you're trying to keep it controlled in a small space that's going to become a bi-weekly ritual, weeding it out.

Very impressive pearl grass

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks nowherman

Unfortunately I've lost a couple more fish, including a male preacox. I think I might have gotten a bad batch of pvc or something like that and it might be leaching undesireables into the water. Could be internal parasites or who knows what else. Might be bad husbandry, but I'd argue with you about that. I'm thinking about tearing it down and starting fresh, but that won't be happening until xmas break maybe if at all. I barely have time to do the water changes every week much less to (re)set up a tank. Even the viv is on hold right now. If I do a tear down, I won't retry the falls. I'll do somthing entirely different. It would obviously include the tenellus whatever it is I do . And I can never lose patience with it. I just like it too much.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Tenellus Obsessor = Matty
Wisteria Dominator = Tetratech
Tank Redo Ingo Style = LITTLE_FISH

Who else is out there?

Anyway, sorry to hear about all the trouble that the tank seems to give you at the moment. I don't have any reasonable explanation on why things are the way they are, but I am most certain that there is no single culprit here. I would assume that the fish are/were sick (which would explain the deaths) and that it may have been better not to add all at once (may explain the algae). But hey, afterwards we are all wiser, aren't we?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey I want in with the names!

LF,
I think you are on to something with the too many fish right away and algae theory.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

The fish might be sick, but if they are, then I have no indicators as to what it is. They look active and healthy then I find one taking a nap in the pearl grass(if I find it at all). The only ones that look at all weak or anything were 2 of the featherfins, but those died shortly after I bought them, and well before the recent problems. I now only have 2 of those and they appear perfectly healthy. None of the praecox acted weird before I found one dead. I'm no disease and treatment expert, but I know a healthy/unhealthy fish when I look at it, even if I don't know why.

If the algae were only from putting too many fish in at once I wouldn't still have the problem. Especially since I have less fish now than I originally put in the tank(and more algae than the same). I've beat back algae before by dosing things right and upping the CO2 and what not. This time it doesn't seem to make a difference, but if the algae were the only problem I wouldn't be overly concerned, and I really don't mind a bit of hair algae, it's easy to harvest and grows pretty slow. IMO it's probably from fish dieing and not finding them, and the majority of the algae is about 6 inches away from the lights. The rest of the tank has some here and there. It's growing slower than the ludwigia glandulosa on the bottom of the tank, and I'd guess the ludwigia grows about 1 inch per week or two and there's only a little algae on the oldest couple leaves.

*shrugs*

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Sorry to hear of the continued bad luck.

I certainly hope that things pick up & you don't have to re-do the tank. It would be a shame to lose the waterfall after all your hard work.

Hope all improves. I agree with what's been said. Although I read an article about fishless cycling which said you can add all fish at once with this method, I wouldn't trust to do that myself. If you decide to re-stock this tank, maybe go back to the tried & true method of gradually stocking a tank over a period of six months.

Anyway, fingers & toes are crossed for a change of luck with the tank.

Cheers
TW

NowherMan6 - The Aquarist Formerly Known As Protist Collaborator

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Back in the saddle!

Matty,

Yeah, that sounds kind of strange, how they just drop dead all of a sudden. I know that my female rainbows showed at least a few days of weakness symptoms, with standing still in one spot, close to the surface. And 2 actually developed dropsy. Actually, none of mine died so sudden that I found them dead in the tank, they usually died because of my action to remove their "pain".

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matty, sorry for the fish loss.

Something must have shifted to lose all those fish in short order as well as your current algae issues. IMO the best way to avoid and combat problems is to do things slowly. I think most know this, but it's tough to resist when you see something good at the LFS. Algae like other forms of life at opportunisitic. The spores are there, just like parasites and other microscopic life forms. When conditions are right they come out and multiply. The biofilter, ecological balance in our tanks are very sensitive, they have to slowly adjust to any changes you make to the tank. Look at fish, when the temp changes quickly the fish can't adjust and they get sick, but the same fish will tolerate a temp shift if it comes about slowly. Your tank is the same way. When alot of fish are added at once (which means more food, more poop) the biofilter and other necessary components in the tank can't adjust either and creatures like algae get a foothold.

I think a full planted tank can hold alot of fish, but it needs to be stocked very sloooowly. Matty when you talk about all the food your feeding your fish to get them to eat, etc. it's very tough to invision your tank without algae. EI is an "Estimative Index" I don't think it matters if your off center that's the whold idea, you can be, it's estimative.




My Scapes

Matty when you talk about all the food your feeding your fish to get them to eat, etc. it's very tough to invision your tank without algae

I'm not overfeeding. The food gets eaten, and quickly. It's not hanging around in the tank. I'm not an overfeeder, I'm an underfeeder. My boss at work tells me to feed more, and he's usually telling people to feed less. Food is not the problem. It may have sounded like I feed a lot from my post above, sure I feed lots of types of food, that's called good husbandry. I'm not feeding lots of each type of food. I'm trying to slow the fish death carnage so I'm feeding them well(note well, not overfed) and doing waterchanges. Anyways, algae is a secondary concern right now as I said before and probably coming from all the fish I didn't find when they died(that would be a good foothold, right?). That's so likelly that I'm not really considering any other scenarios. It's not even all that bad, especially in the lower portion of the tank(read the majority) and especially compared to the loss of fish. Since I can't seem to do much about the loss of fish, I've got an experiment going that's controlling the light a bit directly over the glossofals area.

As far as something shifting to cause fish deaths, I agree, and I don't because it's not anything I can test for, and it's happening over an extended period of time. Also, the last change I made to the tank was 6 tiny little fish 3 weeks before I started having problems. I've ran temp, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PO4, pH, gH, and KH tests and had them double checked at work. I've tested at multiple times during the day and for the past couple weeks since the fish first started dieing. The only thing I did find was that my ammonia test is bad and gives a slight ammonia reading when there is nothing, but reads fine otherwise. I probably never even had to put on the extra filter. IMO it's either internal parasites or some odd chemical leaching from the supplies I used during setup. I've ruled out internal parasites in my own mind because the fish are never lethargic and only the 2 first threadfins got skinny. Even now the male rainbows are all displaying back and forth to the females.

Oh, and I'm not much for the EI - remember, I'm the micromanager of macronutrients.

Anywho, thanks for the condolences and opinoins, even if it seems I'm a stubborn blockhead unwilling to listen to good advice. I'm really taking all into consideration.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty, I'm not picking on you the whole point of my post was that there are less problems when things are done slowly. Who really knows exactly why a fish might succumb, maybe there are things needed in the whole balance of things that we can't measure, etc.

The food gets eaten, and quickly. It's not hanging around in the tank. I'm not an overfeeder, I'm an underfeeder.

.
See here's the thing. That's great and I'm sure you doing that. If your feeding those different foods for good husbandry it doesn't necessarily mean it works in a high-light planted tank setup. I have one rainbow in my tank and the thing eats and poops nonstop. None of the food makes it to the bottom of the tank, but what about the other end of the feeding process. If the fish are eating and none of the food is making it to the bottom aren't they pooping more.

IMO I don't think high fish loads and high light planted tanks mix. I'm not talking about your tank, but in general. It's very difficult to keep the organics in the tank down where the light won't fuel algae growth. If one wants to increase his chances of success the fish load must be extremely gradual.







My Scapes

I'm inclined to believe that sometimes fish just die I know in my 4G I had to purchase probably 10 or so Green Neon tetras before winding up with the final three that remained healthy. Wherever they're rasied - unless raised in small numbers in the tank of a hobbyist - many times they just don't cope well with transport to LFS, then transport to new tank. I've seen schools get shipped to an LFS in decent shape, then just die off. No one's fault really, maybe just poor genetics?

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Back in the saddle!

Food in doesn't equal poop out. It matters whether your fish eat the food or if it gets to the bottom. If it gets to the bottom and nobody eats it then the whole peice of food and all of it's nutritional value ends up as waste. However, if your fish eats it, a large portion of the nutritional value is stored and used for metabolic processes and growth and what not.

Other than that, I agree, and I was only trying to convey that I'm not overfeeding. I understand that the amount of food in a system can cause problems. But that doesn't have anything to do with the number of types of food I feed.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

This is what I hate about online forums. I think your misinterpreting what I'm saying. By the way are you a Taurus. Because I am

Food in doesn't equal poop out. It matters whether your fish eat the food or if it gets to the bottom. If it gets to the bottom and nobody eats it then the whole peice of food and all of it's nutritional value ends up as waste. However, if your fish eats it, a large portion of the nutritional value is stored and used for metabolic processes and growth and what not.

Thanks for the bio101 lesson. I agree with your statement (I was a bio major in colleague for two years), but not in relation planted aquaria. Let's take two identical tanks. They are exactly the same. One aquarist feeds their fish twice a day 7/days a week and other feeds their fish once a day (same amount each feeding) are you telling me the poop is the same. Doen't the fishes body only use what it can and the rest is waste. So if you agree with that there is more waste in the tank where the fish are feed twice a day. And that assumes all the food is eaten. Take it a step further and say the tank that is feed twice a day now has double the number of fish. Isn't there that much more waste accumulating in the tank compared to the other tank?

So would you agree it's harder to keep the tank that has double the fish and double the feeding clear of algae because of the built-up organics. Forget overfeeding/underfeeding I'm simply saying it's easier to maintain an algae free tank especially in high-light situations with less fish and less food going in. Who's to say what is overfeeding. Every tank is different, but when compared to a tank with less stock and less food your chances are better.





My Scapes

Nope I'm a leo...preeeow

I agree with what you said in the above.

Yes if you feed more it can lead to more algae. If there are more fish, the need to feed more is there too, and it's easier to get algae.

In a fairly empty tank(like mine is now ) there is less waste and less foods for algae.

I wasn't trying to disagree, just trying to point something out that needs to be taken into account IMO. This is what I was trying to point out. If you have two tanks that are fed the same amount, but one has a few more fish in it than the other. In the tank with more fish all the food is eaten. In the tank with less fish not all the food is eaten. The waste in these two tanks are not the same even though the food input is. The one with less fish and uneaten food will have more waste problems than the one with more fish and no uneaten food. However, if you were to feed both these tanks a certain amount per fish(so you are feeding the tank with more fish more food) then yes, the tank with more fish and more food input will have a greater succeptability(sp?) to algae.

That's all just an exception to the rule.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Agreed!!!

Geez, I post a few comments a week and I get into a debate about poop?

Where's LF? I guess I'll go pick on him for a while. Something about his flat 125g?

My Scapes

Matty, another Leo. Checked your profile and your BDay is 9 days before mine.

Cheers
TW

I knew we could come to some agreement this time.

At least I don't have to apologize to LF for cluttering up his log like last time.

So we decided that maybe my algae got a foothold because of my fishless cycle, but did we decide what to do about it now(without talking more about feeding, for the record I'll be continuing with 2 small feedings per day)?

Happy almost shared birfday robyn

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

but did we decide what to do about it now(without talking more about feeding, for the record I'll be continuing with 2 small feedings per day)?
O.K. I can't mention feeding, can I say nutriential servings

I guess the only thing to do is reduce lighting if possible to 6 hours and don't add anymore stock.

My Scapes

don't add anymore stock.

The thought hadn't crossed my mind

I'll bring the lights down a bit then I think I'm at 9 hrs right now.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Where's LF?

I am right here, just happen to have had all day meetings and such fun things. So this is what happens when I leave you guys alone for two days, wars are declared, alliances between birthsigns are formed, poop is thrown around, and what not

Anyway, glad that you guys at least agree somewhat on what may be the cause. All of this does not explain the deaths though. I am with NowherMan6, sometimes fish just die. But not in a short interval with zero sign of sickness. That is mindboggeling. Unfixable stress from shipping?

Oh, I am an archer (sagittarius, or how do you spell that), so no funny business here, ok?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

While we are at it....

Aries (Mar 21- Apr 19) - is the cardinal/fire sign. Aries people need to keep physically busy. They accomplish many things simply because of their restless energy. They need to learn how to make constructive use of their energetic efforts. The typical Aries urge is to take on more than can be done reasonably well. Though others may find it difficult to keep pace with an Aries, they are attracted to their animation and spirited personality.

This seems to make sense right about now in my life...

At this point Matty I wouldn't make any large changes just to see what happens. Once you start making changes, who knows what the causes are.


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

But not in a short interval with zero sign of sickness

I think it can happen. If these fish were relatively new stock, i.e. only at the store for a few days before being brought home, I can see them dying off in large numbers. Call it poor genetics of the fish, stress from relocation, whatever. I just think it happens sometimes.

Heck, look at tetra and his cardinals pre-UV. His would just turn up dead, as I remember. Some fish are just weaker and can't deal.

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Back in the saddle!

Nah, I never buy fish at the store when they just come in. The threadfins I remember were in the store for at least 2-3 months and the praecox were in at least one month. The furcatas were there a very long time, as I remember I didn't want to buy them as tiny as they were. They probably nearly doubled in size at the store before I bought them. For some reason rainbows aren't the most popular fish in the store, I guess.

These fish shipped fine and were never treated for anything at the store, they were fine there too. Then they spent a good monnth or more in my tank before they decided to start kicking off.

It's something about my tank conditions that these fish aren't pleased with. There's no doubt about that. Weak fish, maybe, but they sure looked good for a while.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

That changes everything then. It's interesting.

Maybe some species just need to be in an established tank to thrive? And maybe there's more to an established tank than 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrite? I don't know

The second question, of course, is how a school of threadfin rainbows managed to stay unbought for 2-3 months

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Back in the saddle!

I dunno how they didn't get sold, it's not like they are that expensive at $5 each. A lot of our customer base doesn't really know what's up. "I want something colorful" "gee those, umm...they aren't...colorful? " I get frustrated with the customers at times, if you can't tell. Those are the costomers that usually end up buying dalmation mollies, perhaps one of the least colorful fish ever. I guess I shouldn't talk though, I can't even keep the rainbows alive.

Yep, maybe I should have stocked with something less sensitive, but that doesn't IMO explain why they are still dieing. The tank is what I'd call established now or even a month or more ago, and that's when they started dieing. I guess I'm just going to have to wait it out with waterchanges. If I end up with no fish left in a couple months, I'll know that I need to change everything.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matt... don't stress put too much about them. I had problems keeping the furcatas and threadfins alive for a while too. I gave up on the furcatas and now i have threadfins and gertrudes, which are finally doing fine, despite occasional neglect.

I think dwarf rainbows just tend to be weak. They're little fish. Maybe there's something going on inside their tiny bodies that we simply just don't understand yet, despite our best efforts. I think eventually your stock will thin to a few strong guys that will never die. Things just have to sort themselves out.

Thanks Nate, hopefully that's the case and they are just weak. I just get upset about it because I haven't had a problem with fish dieing in 5 or 6 yrs.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well I got my new camera, and was giving it a whirl on the 50g tank. I haven't quite got it down yet, but I'm feeling confident I will after another couple sessions. Right now I only have the 16mb card that came with the camera, so I get like 10 pics at a time, so I haven't gone all out yet because of the back and forth to the computer thing. I'll be getting a bigger card for xmas. I can't help but like this camera 100X more than my old one already. So much easier to get good pics. The one thing I'm really having to re-learn is basically the right settings to get the right light and shutter speed and whatnot. Everything else is cake. So on to the pics I guess.

Here's the outcome of photo shoot 1 and 2:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

And here's another sampling:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Nice pictures Matt! I can't wait to see them after you have every thing figured out with the new camera.

The colors seem to look pretty realistic with this camera. Nothing is overly bright or too dark. Nice work my friend. BTW what did you get for a camera.

Your red plant is a type of ludwigia right? I really like how deep red that plant is.



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Nice Matty, It's a shame you don't know how to use the camera

I really like the first pic and the one with the big pearl.
Your rainbow pics will give LF a run for the money.



My Scapes

Thanks Guys, I think LF's pics of the rainbows are better than mine, cause he caught them shining blue, I've yet been able to do that. I also have some pics of my salt tank. Go check those out cause nobody else will. I've been talking to myself over there for the last couple months. I'm having a little harder time taking clean, properly colored pics of stuff in that tank, so the pics aren't quite as good.

I ended up taking your advice tetratech, and I got an IS. I also kept with the smaller point and shoot style too. The camera is a canon A710 IS. It had all the features I wanted, IS, big 6x zoom, manual focus, large viewing screen, super macro, and all that other fun stuff. I found it going as cheap as the a630 and no shipping charge, so I couldn't pass it up.

I have to admit tetratech, the IS is a pretty cool feature, one that would be impossible to pass up now that I've experienced it first hand. Glad I listened to you that much.

And yes the red plant in my tank is the ludwigia glandulosa. It's gotta be one of my favorite red plants, not too difficult to grow either.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I have to admit tetratech, the IS is a pretty cool feature, one that would be impossible to pass up now that I've experienced it first hand. Glad I listened to you that much.

Glad you take my recovery room advice.

Anyway, great camera, I'm sure you'll have a good time with it. If you haven't upgraded your memory card you might want to consider this. http://www.amazon.com/Sandisk-SDSDPH-1024-901-Ultra-Retail-Package/dp/B0009HTB0Y/sr=1-2/qid=1163782146/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-1830850-9147837?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

It rotates into a USB connection, so you don't have to worry about a card reader or attaching a cable. I've had one for about 4 months and it works great.

My Scapes

Glad you take my recovery room advice.

Hey! So far I've turned the lights down and haven't bought any fish, despite seeing some nice stuff at work every week.


Wow that's a pretty cool little gadget. I'll look into getting one of those. Right now I just plug the camera into the computer, which isn't too much of a hassle, but I'm sure that would be easier.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

AHEM! full tank shot, please, full tank

:: cough cough ::

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Back in the saddle!

You have to at least comment on the pictures already posted to request a full tank shot nowher .... where's your nettiquite?

Anyways, I have to wait until the second light comes on or else the pics come out dark. I'll post it up later.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I second the l. glandulosa shot... it looks amazing back-lit. You should let it grow to the surface and creep sideways a little to give that corner a reddish cast.

Your pics are so clear now. Very nice.

Is that good "nettiquite". Can I ask for a full shot now please?

Cheers
TW

Is that good "nettiquite". Can I ask for a full shot now please?

Yes, and thanks for the nice comments. Sorry I've haven't gotten around to taking this pic. I've switched gears over to the viv again. I'll get to it in the next couple days, I promise.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi Matt,
I was looking at those pictures and the tank is indeed
beautiful and the photography stunning.
It got me thinking... You know, that eighth picture.
The solitary picture of the red plant, properly cropped
would make an amazing avatar.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

The solitary picture of the red plant, properly cropped
would make an amazing avatar.

Thanks for the comments Frank. I think it would make a nice avatar as well, but then I can't be the tenellus obsessor. I couldn't decide how much to crop it in the first place This is what the original looks like, how would you crop it?:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Nice detail shots, but I miss the overall that shows the destruction you mentioned a while ago, aka algae.

And nice new camera work there, too

Hey, as a side note, when looking at your Pearl Grass shot, seems like we both do not have MM but HM. I saw last week some Amano Pearl Grass and it looks different, like only two leaves per node and not like a rosette like we have

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

seems like we both do not have MM but HM

ermm...what's MM? I've always thought I have hemianthus micranthemoides. I thought that's what pearl grass is. Maybe what you saw wasn't pearl grass? Maybe I'm confused(most likely)?

and not like a rosette like we have

The only rosette plant I have is E. tenellus. The rest are stems, including the hemianthus micranthemoides. I agree It has 3 leaves per node, but it's definitely a stem. Or are you saying the stuff you saw was a rosette?

Anywho I'm confused as I've always thought that what I have was HM, and I've thought we agreed that HM is pearl grass. Is HM not pearl grass? I'm pretty certain that what I have is HM. I did a lot of looking around about that one too.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

You have to forgive the old man, I think I am getting lost in the aquatic plant jungle.

Somehow I managed to get almost everything confused

I guess what I want to say is that I have seen Amano Pearl Grass, and ours does not look like it, although it is called Pearl Grass as well. That's all

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sooo...we have pearl grass, but not Amano pearl grass?

Whatever the case may be, whatever plant we do have is a stunner, and quickly became one of my fav's.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

quickly became one of my fav's

Oh oh,

Are you working your way to become a Pearl Grass Obsessor?

In any case, I agree, the plant is very versatile and can be used all over the tank in varying heights.

But yeah, we don't have Amano Pearl Grass, but that's ok.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I don't think there's enogh characters for me to be labeled tenellus/pearl grass obsessor.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ok, I promised a FTS so here I am to deliver. It needed a trimming desperately so I didn't want to take a picture before I got to it.

FTS:


Side angle:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

The ludwigia is really pulling all the attention, even more so than the glosso fall . I know you just trimmed the tank, so I don't know how it looks under "normal" conditions, but the tenellus is almost worth a background plant in there as it is much taller than the rest of the bottom plants.

Otherwise, very very green

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Looks great Matty

Looks like the lud is floating on a sea of pearlgrass.


My Scapes

Thanks guys

The ludwigia is really pulling all the attention, even more so than the glosso fall

Yeah, I've decided that the glossofalls didn't work out the way I wanted and I'm going to be taking it all down over xmas break. The rest of my tank is doing great and is completely algae free at this point. I'd love to take it down in little steps over a couple weeks, but I'm not sure how I can do that with that little obstacle I've put in there. For the rescape I'm thinking about another low scape without too much in the way of fast growing stem plants, maybe a small group in one corner or something. I like how easy it is to maintain this setup. I'm thinking about doing more with shaping the gravel and rocks (more than I have now) to create the depth instead of tall stems and driftwood, but If I find a real nice piece, then I might go for that too.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I'm thinking about doing more with shaping the gravel and rocks

Sounds good to me, but I would be a little careful with the gravel as a shaper as it tends to even out after a while. Rocks seem better suited for that job.

Yeah, I guess if you would like to remove the Glosso-Falls then there is only one way to do it: All at once. And I can imagine that this is not a task that one is looking forward to. I will keep my fingers crossed once when you get to it.

How is the algae in the falls? If it is still pretty bad then you may want to act sooner as it will spread into the Pearl Grass meadow before you know it.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The algae seems to be receding in coincidence with the fish not dying much anymore. I couldn't make time to do it now if that weren't the case anyways. It's about time for finals and whatnot. My fish will be lucky to get fed during the next 3 weeks.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

My fish will be lucky to get fed during the next 3 weeks

Oh oh, I guess that means that we are not going to see a lot of entries from you in the next 3 weeks

I wish you a lot of luck with your tests and papers and whatever else you have to do.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Oh oh, I guess that means that we are not going to see a lot of entries from you in the next 3 weeks

FP is my "get away from it for 15 mins" thing. So I'll pop in here and there, but not as much as I normally do. And thanks for the luck, I'll need it

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

So I'll pop in here and there

Well, maybe you can use that time to also visit one of my logs, or maybe even more than one

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matty,

Good luck with your finals. Once I make it through this week things are going to be smooth sailing after.

I have been tempted to so a set up mich like your next one. they seem so much simpler. More thining out then triming and replanting.



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Matty,

Looks really great, I love the HM on the left, it really looks stunning with the Lud.

I can see what you mean about the glosso falls, but as far as experiments go it was a good one and didnt result in a scaping disaster. Agree with LF about taking it down at once. Also do a HUGE water chnage after.

But there will be more time to discuss that in about a month.

Good luck with finals!

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Back in the saddle!

Good luck with exams Matty

For the rescape I'm thinking about another low scape without too much in the way of fast growing stem plants

I like the sound of that. I thought you needed a bunch of those fast growing stems to suck up the nutrients & keep the algae at bay?

Will it work to have no fast growing stems at all?

Cheers
TW

Thanks guys

I like the sound of that. I thought you needed a bunch of those fast growing stems to suck up the nutrients & keep the algae at bay?

Will it work to have no fast growing stems at all?

Well I think it will work out fine. Pearl grass is technically a stem, and a very fast growing one in my tank. Tenellus also grows pretty quick. I just took another 50 to my LFS tonight along with some pearl grass and got $40 for the group. I did the same 6 weeks ago. Those things grow at warp speed sometimes. Just harvesting those easily takes care of maintenence costs for the tank. I'll keep both those in the tank and maybe some stems in a corner. I think it should be OK.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

We might have to work something out for the pearl grass sometime if you are up to it.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Just let me know and I am sure we can work something out Matt.

Being you have a salt tank. Try and breed them?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Are they supposed to be pretty easy to breed? I doubt they'd last very long in my SW tank (the baby shrimpsters) and I would have to acclimate them over a period of weeks I think, so that's probably out of the question, unless I set up a dedicated tank to acclimate them to full SW salinity.

You got a how to link on raising amanos?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I think you're right about the shrimp matty. I don't think it's worth the effort. tiny shrimp will not last long at all even if you get them to hatch and catch them and transport them. probably much easier to just buy more.

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Back in the saddle!

Nice shrimpster pictures Matty

Yeah, I also think that you won't be able to raise them. But keep on trying to find a link on how it would have to be done, as I would be interested myself. Maybe a brackish environment would be good enough? No idea ...

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I thought the carnage had stopped, but it seems that I was wrong. I'm now left with 13 fish. 7 preacox, 3 signifers, and 3 otos. A couple days ago I noticed the first signs of actual disease, and I've been looking this whole time. Kinda odd IMO that it pops up now.

Anyways, Heres a couple pics. Only one of my bulbs has turned on, so the pics are a bit dark. If you can't see it I'll try and get pics later.

These are both the same fish, no others are showing anything like this:




Lemme know what you guys think I should do. I'm not very good with diseases, I'm not really experienced in that department

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I'm not really experienced in that department

I wish I could help you out but I am in the same department as you are. For the most part I haven't ever had too many issues since getting serious about the hobby. Working in a LFS is interesting when people come in asking for meds for their sick fish... Have the same problem?



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Yeah, I do, but most people that come in asking for meds don't really have sick fish though. The fish are dieing because of NH4(new tank) or prolonged high NO3/pH drop(old tank, no water changes). If fish really are displaying symptoms of anything other than ich, I tend to get help with it. Our managers are really pretty good with IDing illness. They basically take care of 300 tanks of fish so disease happens all the time.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

One of my old sparkling gourami had that:



Unfortunately she didn't respond to treatment, and eventually became more and more reclusive. I had to put her down. Keep an eye on him, but be prepared to send him to fishy heaven if he doesn't get better.

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Back in the saddle!

It looks a little bit like what my original trio of black mollies developed. According to the people at the LFS it was most likely fish tuberculosis. However, they also told me that most fish in general don't develop this desease even if the bug itself is present. The mollies were just more e to develop it because the water in Finland is very soft, while the mollies thrive better in harder water.

Take a look here and see if the symptoms you see are a bit like it:
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Keefer_FishTB.html

I'd also suggest you start a thread in the hospital forums where someone more knowledgable may be able to identify the cause.

Hows the fish doing Matt?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

As of lights out he was still alive. Lights come on in about an hour, but I won't be here. I suspect he'll hang on for a couple days at least. He was eating and swimming normal. That could be said for all the others that died though.

I put up a post in the hospital like you suggested Dr. Bonke.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well the infected rainbow made it through the day, but a healthy looking oto kicked the bucket. I'm not sure what to think about this anymore.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Doesn't sound good Matt. I wish I could help but I am of no use to you. Have you showed the pictures to your bosses?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I've tried to describe it to them, but I don't have a good way to get the pic into work, my printer is no good, and you can't really see the problem on the original picture on the camera's screen. From what I described they said it could be a few things, and the best would be to dump x,y, and z in there at the same time for a couple weeks. which they said would probably annihilate the plants and bacterial filter.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ouch... Thats not good at all. What are you thinking of doing?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Guess I'll have to wait it out. After xmas I'll redo the plant scape so that will take my mind off things. I was thinking about nuking everything, but then I remembered the amano shrimp that are doing just awesome in there. They would probably die from whatever parasite meds I use...most just target inverts. Summary - No clue.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Yeah don't kill off your Amano's they cost too much! I would guess they probably are not holding the issues at hand either.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Amano's don't cost much for me...but that's no reason to kill them. You are right. They are fine and dandy, all someteen of them.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

The perks of working at a LFS. Cheap stuff for our addictions.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Matty, so sorry to hear of all the troubles here. I haven't check in for a while to this thread - what happened with the sick fish - any improvement?

Shame you had to tear down the deathstar after all your hard work. I'm sure something nicer still is coming.

Good luck with the re-do

Cheers
TW

Thanks robyn, the fish with the cyst was a serious fighter, but he died today. I now have 8 rainbows left.

The deathstar was a fun little project, I don't mind that it didn't turn out well. I could have made it work with some lower light plants...a moss or nana petite.

I did get some nana petite, and I have a few other new plants for the redo. I'm keeping the pearl grass, ludwigia, star grass, and obviously the tenellus. I bought some ammania, a new batch of gayii, r. wallichi, and hydrocotyl. Not sure if I will keep the hydrocotyl though.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients