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I disagree with LF and Wings. I don't think it's too big. As you know I like big dramatic structures. More than ever it will be important not to compete with other high objects in the tank.

My Scapes

OK, I think I'm starting to see your vision now. It is big, but not sure if it's TOO big. The saving grace of it is the fact that there will be lots and lots of small leaved plants - glosso - attached to it. I think you can pull it off as long as everything else is kept in proper perspective. if you have this mound on the right with glosso then put swords or some other big leaved plants to the left I think it'll look awkward. Grasses may be less intrusive and not as distracting from the focal point mound you've created. Do you plan on letting the glosso spread to the other section of the tank? I guess the only thing I would be worried about is dead spots and organic matter build-up under the structure.

I think that Nowher is just taking writing lessons from Ben in his spare time.

Actually, i was just trying to mimic some of the far out things Amano says in his books, which probably get lost and twisted in translation.

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Back in the saddle!

Just as I thought, it is rather big and makes the tank shrink quite a bit.

I figured people would think it was big. I thought so too. I made it as small as compact as possible though, so I have to go with it. The only dimension it could shrink is in the vertical, that would just look goofy and out of preportion.

I have faith in you knowing what you are doing.

Thanks LF. Don't get dissapointed if it doesn't work...I'm kinda making this up as I go. It's all a big expensive experiment, but everyone I've talked to says it could be neat, even the guys at Home Depot who don't have a clue about aquatic plants, so I hope it works out.

I guess you will also have to take off all the stickers from each piece of PVC. Don't these stickers contain some poisenous glue that, given the number of stickers, could leach into the water column?

I've already started, and what a PITA. I'll probably soak the entire structure in the bathtub overnight and give it a good scrubdown once it's finished.

You talk about "attaching the screen", is that so that there is a hollow interior and nothing falls into it? What material is that made off?

Insect screening made out of fiberglass, and coated in a plastic. The HD guy and I decided it probably wasn't toxic. The screening is actually to keep the ecocomple in the waterfall area(so nothing gets out of the waterfall) and allow the glosso to root into it. It's a good thing glosso is a tiny little plant, cause the screen has tiny little holes.

So when the screen goes on will it be completely enclosed to prevent fish from going inside the PVC structure or will fish be able to take an "inside the waterfall tour."

Yep, I don't want any little rainbows getting lost in the waterfall. If one of them would happen to get into the pvc it would probably never get out.

Wow Matt. You really went to town on your PVC.

heh, yeah. That's about 9ft of pvc and around 30 fittings. All I have left is a small 1ft peice of pvc left over. I thought the 10ft peice I had to buy was going to be way to big.

It might be a little too much. You sure are stepping outside the box with this though.

I agree, it might. But I gotta keep going now. I was hoping to do something that I've never done before at the very least, so this should be a good time seeing how it will turn out. Like I said, it really can't be any smaller, so I have to stick with it.

I disagree with LF and Wings. I don't think it's too big. As you know I like big dramatic structures. More than ever it will be important not to compete with other high objects in the tank.

I'm glad I got one vote for not too big. It's a bit reassuring. I totally agree with the grasses and what not. I want to try blyxa, probably some tenellus. I'm not too sure about hairgrass, microswords would fall into the maybe category too. I'm thinking that with such a large structure, that I could only get away with a couple types of grass. anything else might look too small. What do you guys think? I'll still try to get some stems in there that I can keep lowcut. Baby's tears or something like that in the back left corner with some low driftwood or rocks. Maybe some anubias nana petite would look good there or on the waterfall itself. I'll need some advice there too.

I think you can pull it off as long as everything else is kept in proper perspective.

All of you are going to have to help with that. I can make plants grow, and play with pvc, but I'm not the best aquascaper. I'll probably be coming for help and suggestions quite a bit.

Do you plan on letting the glosso spread to the other section of the tank?

I plan on there being a little glosso "pool" below the waterfall. That's probably it. I could go the whole way with glosso and add some rocks here and there, but I think it would look odd, and I want to do a bit more with different plants.

I guess the only thing I would be worried about is dead spots and organic matter build-up under the structure.

Don't let it concern you nowherman - I've taken care of it. There will literally be very little area occupied by water under the structure. The majority of it will be siliconed off with acrylic. there will be about 2 inches of gravel all the way around and on top of the structure - no more likely to be a dead spot than the gravel in your tank.



Well I think I should be able to get all the stuff glued today, and maybe get some acrylic work in. I'll keep ya posted.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well,

Dissapointed or not, I am exitingly awaiting the next series of pictures to see how it all progresses.

Question: I would assume that the least you have to do is to get all the air out of the tubing to avoid it trying to float up. Is the plastic itself a floater? How do you plan on anchoring the structure, just by it's weight with the rocks and all?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The PVC un-sealed will not float. But if you trap air in it you will probably have a problem.

Maybe pre fill with sand or something?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Yeah, I might fill the acrylic box thing(my solution to the large dead spot) with sand or gravel before I fill it up. That would keep the structure down for sure.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ohhh, I see now. You're going to finish off the structure with acrylic slabs on the inside and then fill that up?

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Back in the saddle!

Chew got it. I have 2 of the 7 peices cut for that. After that, I have to secure the screen, then the rocks. Fill the small gap with eco complete for the glosso to root into, then I'm ready to go with the tank. I'm figuring a couple days work would do it, but that will probably take a week or two to get the time.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Just a small quick update - I got all the acryllic cut today, and the bottom peice is siliconed in. I tried to do the whole thing, but I need the bottom to be secure so I can put the rest into place without popping the bottom out. So just a couple pics:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

This is becoming so interesting, all this glueing and stuff. I have about 100 questions on its final look and feel, as well as another 66 questions somewhat like "what if ... "

But I think at this point I simply will enjoy the pictures (don't forget to keep em coming) and most questions will be answered automatically.

Have fun,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ask away if you like. It seems I've stalled out a bit again. I tried to do too much at once again and the acryllic structure fell apart while the silicone was still wet. I have 4 of the 7 peices set. It's all about finding time, maybe after work today.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well,

For one thing, are you going to paint that sucker?

I can imagine that at one spot or another, the structure will be visually exposed in the tank, maybe by rocks that don't quite overlap, or by Eco that falls off for whatever reason (like when you try to remove 5 layers of Glosso and the roots pull it off). If that is possible, wouldn't the white really stick out?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I finally got the acryllic work done. The silicone was allowed time to set then the gravel was added in. I really knew better than to try to do it all at once, but I got ambitious. This time it was done right, and looks like it will hold. I also got a bit of the screenwork done. I'm currently going to glue the sucker in place, then either use zip ties or do a bit of sewing with fishing line to keep it permanently attached.

6/7 sides siliconed in:

with top on, not siliconed:

With gravel and top siliconed, some screenwork done:


To answer the paint question - I thought about it, and was pretty sure I was going to, but I was afraid of getting the wrong type of paint and it taking my whole tank south with it. Any spot that's visible will be allowed to grow over with glosso, or have some moss/other plant or rock put in that place. That's become my solution, and I'm not sure if it will work entirely. The only other solution I have is silicone and sand. I might do that. The screen is pretty dark too and should help cover most of it up. Oh, the ecocomplete can't fall off. The structure will be "full" of ecocomplete. That's what the screen is for, to keep it in while letting the plants root through. That's what I'm hoping anyways.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hey Matty,

What's with the socks ? It is about 300 degrees outside and you wear thick tennis socks?

Now I see where the Eco is supposed to go. I am sure that in the beginning it will be very messy. Some parts of the Eco are so tiny that they will fall right through the mesh. Also, I don't know if Eco gets used up, meaning parts of it slowly may integrate into the water column. If that should be the case then the area behind the mesh should gradually become less dense and collaps a little.

Nevertheless, your handy work looks very nice, I for sure would never have the patience to go through this

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

It's the only socks I'll wear. I gotta have comfy socks when I'm on my feet 10 hrs a day. Even if it's about 98* in the salt water room with all the halides and vho lighting. BTW that's bad for fish and corals, but I'm pretty sure everybody knew that.

Some parts of the Eco are so tiny that they will fall right through the mesh.

Yeah, I thought that might happen, but hopefully it won't take too long to settle.

If that should be the case then the area behind the mesh should gradually become less dense and collaps a little.

I think we're talking years here...right?

Nevertheless, your handy work looks very nice, I for sure would never have the patience to go through this

Well I'm more than ready to start putting plants and fish in. I think I can only wait another week(5 minutes), but the structure should be done in a matter of days now.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I think we're talking years here...right?

You know, I am not really an Eco expert (yet), I only recently added one tank with Eco (40) and retro-fitted two others (20 and 29).

It may have something to do with the way I added the Eco in the tanks, but I cannot say for sure:

Whenever I added a plant for the first time in an area, I had the feeling that the Eco was caving in a little, like falling into itself, if you know what I mean (if not, ask and I will try to explain better).

So I would say that you should maybe add the Eco and submerse that sucker in the tank, and then try to see if you can compact it a little (maybe it is based on air being trapped in the eco, I don't know), and maybe even let it settle for a few days before adding plants and stuff on the outside.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Do you think it would be better for me to use flourite or a plain ol' pea gravel instead of using eco in the falls? Obviously I'd stick with ececomplete everywhere else in the tank.

I do know that eco does have different sized granules on purpose, so that different layers form, and it takes an amount of time for it to settle naturally. That may be what you were experienceing there??

I was hoping tetratech would chime in on the properties of ecocomplete since he has had his up for a while...

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Do you think it would be better for me to use flourite or a plain ol' pea gravel instead of using eco in the falls? Obviously I'd stick with ececomplete everywhere else in the tank.

Sounds like pea gravel would be the way to go. What happens with the eco is that the smaller grains work their way to the bottom thru the openings between the larger grains. So LF's statement about it collapsing into itself makes sense. Another option might be to put the eco or the gravel into women's stockings and fill up the inside of the fall. This way you won't run the risk of it mixing with the eco if you decide to adjust it. I find some women's beauty products very helpful in aquaria (stockings and hairnets) Bensaf should know all about it

My Scapes

Bensaf should know all about it

Cheeky

Yes, make sure to use a good skin moisturiser on your hands when finished working in the tank !

Must have missed something. Don't get why the acrylic is filled with gravel ???

How about drilling the acrlic with holes and filling with bio balls ? Additional bio filter ?

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Sounds like pea gravel would be the way to go

I thought it might. Glosso wll grow well with just ferts from the water column?

How about drilling the acrlic with holes and filling with bio balls ? Additional bio filter ?

I actually thought about it, seriously. Especially since I am running an undersized filter. I didn't really want to try to do that though. and the gravel is so my glossofall doesn't pick up and float away.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

So say you go with the bio-balls idea.
Drill a bunch of holes in the acrylic. Fill the think with the bio balls. Add a powerhead to pull the water into "biofilter" then with the powerhead have it piped up to stream out behind a rock or something of the sort. Thus simulated a natural spring? Ahh just my 2 cents!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Ok, just a bit of an update. I've finished with attaching the screen to the pvc structure, and bought some rocks to attach to it. I busted up one rock pretty well into smaller peices, but the 2 other rocks have taken chips out of my hammer and put dents into the sidewalk two stories below my bedroom window. The rocks are just fine - no worries there. So aside from breaking up rocks(any ideas?) I'm coming across problems with attaching them to the pvc structure. I bought some masonry bits to drill through some of the peices, but after 20 minutes I gave up with a hole of about 1 cm deep. The smallest peices I can silicone to the structure, but the larger ones I was hoping to screw into the pvc and silicone over the end of the screw and cover with sand or something to that effect, but I won't be drilling for 6 hours. I'm guessing adhesive or fishing line. I'm leaning towards fishing line only because I don't think an adhesive of any type will work(and continue to be stable for any amount of time). I don't really want the fishing line to be visible in the tank, but that might be the only way to do it. Maybe I can paint it the same color as the rock or maybe I can score the rock so the fishing line will fit down into the rock, effectively making it invisible. That might work, and it won't take so long to score it as it would to drill it.

Anyways, some pics of stuff. I think it's turning out ok so far. I had to make a few cuts and do some sewing. Something my old home-ec teacher might be proud of.

Tools of the trade:


Nearly complete, a bit easier to visualize from this point anyhow:


Mostly this pic is for some of the rock peices visible in the back, and another angle of the pvc structure:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

This is a very interesting thread you've got going here. I can't wait to see this thing in the tank! Keep the pictures coming!

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Thanks rick I'll try to keep up with the picks. Right now I'm a bit stalled out though, as I'm not too sure what to do with the rocks.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matt would you mind taking some picture of the rocks on your contraption? Is the net to tight to hug the rocks?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Matty,

Sorry about my lack of entries, I am being buried with work. But what do I read there - you want to attach the rocks with fisching line? Hm, I wonder if that would be stable enough. I would not go that route, but hey - you are the handy man here, I am only the worrier

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
Is it just you or a German thing to always be playing war?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

... always be playing war?

Only with you Wings

No, I just think out loud and wonder about how things are supposed to work out, it is a very mind-boggeling contraption that Matty is building there.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matt would you mind taking some picture of the rocks on your contraption? Is the net to tight to hug the rocks?

I would love to take picks with rocks on the contraption....however, I have not yet been able to get any rocks onto the contraption long enough to back away and snap a pic. The rocks will have to go on the outside of the netting, so they will be visible. Only gravel will be under the netting, and yes it's pretty tight, I don't want a saggy waterfall. It does crunches. and eats whole grain.

you want to attach the rocks with fisching line? Hm, I wonder if that would be stable enough. I would not go that route

You are only allowed to say stuff like that IF you have a better idea that I can implement. Otherwise, it can only be praise for my dark genious...muwahahaha..haha..heh.... For which(other ideas, not praise) I am still waiting, mainly for my own brain to come up with something because I understand now how handy you guys are. Seriously though...anybody? Or with how to break rocks. I can't be the only one who's had that issue. It's not like I just dropped them from 20 feet, I hurled them with all my measly strength and dented the sidewalk. I think I'll invest in a chisel and big hammer and maybe a guy to hold the chisel.

I'm thinking if they make fishing line to hold a 20LB trout or bass or something it can hold up a 1lb rock for eternity. So I'm not too worried there. It's mostly the visibility issue I'm having with it.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,



What a clever response, if you would be only half as witty when it comes to splittig rock then your problem would already have been solved .

Seriously, isn't fossilized wood one of the most solid rocks out there? I think that the only way to get smaller pieces is to cut them up with one of these fancy slicers. Tetratech and I both tried to throw and hurl rocks before, I think he even tried the fossilized wood type, and all we got were dents all over the place, like driveway, garage, head, and what not.

The fishing line issue is not one of strenght of the line itself, it is a question of assuring that the way you wrap it around the rock and how you secure it onto the contraption does not allow the rock to move, turn, or even wiggle itself out of the line (for example - over time during water changes etc) and fall down.

As for a better idea - Sorry, but you are way more handy with these things.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matt,
Let me get this right. You have two layers of netting? That way you can put the eco inbetween them? My thoughts are that you should make the netting looser thus to create pockets to hold the rocks. That way if you ever want to pull them out you can just pick them up.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Hubby broke rock for me by placing the rock to be broken on an old paver. Then putting some sort of chisel thing on the rock & bashing the chisel with hammer. By the time we were finished, both my rock was broken into the several pieces I wanted & also the paver underneath split in 2 (so we were glad we didn't just try it directly on our paving itself).

I have no ideas for the connecting of rocks to your contraption - but I am very impressed with your concept, contraption & determination so far (so no ideas, but you sure do get my praise)

Cheers
TW

Tetratech and I both tried to throw and hurl rocks before, I think he even tried the fossilized wood type, and all we got were dents all over the place, like driveway, garage, head, and what not.

I'm just imagining tetra driving out to LFs house and bringing his rock collection. The two shake hands and then say, " OK, are we ready?" then start throwing rocks at each other's heads trying to break them

Sorry

Matty, I think 20lb test fishing line will do the trick. It's more a matter of the rocks slipping out of the way they're tied on. Unless I'm picturing this wrong...

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Back in the saddle!

Matt,

How precise do you want to be when breaking the rock? When we were putting in a flowerbed at the house we had to break some rock. I went to HomeDepot and bought their heaviest sledge hammer, put on my steel toed shoes, and proceeded to whack the hell out of it.

Not very precise but I had nice manageable rocks and no stress.


Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

I'm just imagining tetra driving out to LFs house and bringing his rock collection. The two shake hands and then say, " OK, are we ready?" then start throwing rocks at each other's heads trying to break them

Are you tripping man

My Scapes

NowherMan6,

How did you know? You must have been that creepy guy who was hiding behind the hedge when we did that

But I guess you missed the part before the rock splitting attempt, because we had a few beers first. As such, aiming was not our strenght and besides a few broken windows, some dents in the driveway, and one or two scrapes tetratech and I escaped unharmed

Matty - nothing new there?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matty - nothing new there?

Well I won a couple skins in a 2 day golf tourney in Cleveland Ohio.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Great Matty,

Maybe you can use the skins as a cover for the mesh and then the pipes wouldn't show so much (I know, I know, this one was lame).

I am glad that you have the luxury of having time with this project, I guess if you would be in a rush it would have failed already.

Keep us posted, on the tank and golf,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I do plan on using today to try and finish it, but haven't gotten started yet. I meant to tell you Wings, that I really like the pocket idea. If I can't get the fishing line to be mostly invisible, or if it desn't work, I'll use that idea. The pockets would just be difficult to implement, but sounds like it would work great. I'll keep it in mind, thanks.

Well I'm off to HD and wal-mart(can you beleive they don't sell fishing line at Home Depot )Updates later.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi,
My two cents...
Petrified Wood is wood in which the cellulose has been
replaced, usually by silica, and is in essence similar
to a chunk of glass. It won't fracture (break) into
pieces that you want but rather into "chunks." If you
are determined to use what you have, then slicing it
with a rock saw is your only real option.
Check locally to see if there is not a gem or rock club
in your area. At least one of their members would have
access to a saw. Another option is to check with your
local museum of natural history. The resident geologist
should have access to the saw and you could probably talk
him/her into helping.

You would be better off if you were to switch to a
sedimentary rock such as sandstone, mud stone, or shale.
They can be cleaved into pieces with the correct hammer
and chisel. A carpenter's hammer is not appropriate for
working rock. The face is too soft.

This is a link to the appropriate hammer:
http://www.bergsrockshop.com/cgi-bin/product.php?item=Estwing%20Rock%20Hammers
The Estwing hammers are THE best.
I'd choose one of the 22 ounce ones.
You have the option of a "pick" or a "chisel" at one end
along with the flat striking surface at the other.

Be sure to use a chisel designed for stone (masonry) work.
Be sure to wear safety glasses, and gloves as the shards
will cause damage to your flesh and eyes if you are not
protected.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks Frank, that was very informative. I wish I had access to cool tools like that. I ended up buying a 4lb hammer and some carpenters chisels that were cheap, so I didn't care if they got messed up. I strapped on my safety goggles and went to work. I feel that if I were to put some time into it, that it would break, but for now I decided to just go with what I have so far, and use the two large peices as is. I did end up with a major acheivement - first peice of rock attached to structure! This was from the rock that broke easily, and I used fishing line, and it's pretty darn stable. I'll have some pics maybe tomorrow, and I'll try to get some more rock on it as well.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Glad to hear that you are making progress with your approach without having to modify it too much.

I can't wait to see the pictures of it ...

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Alright here's some piccies for ya. I have about all the rocks glued/strung up to this thing as I want, the two leftover rocks may or may not go in along with the waterfall. I paid plenty for them so at the very least we are going to try them out. The rocks were put on the structure in whatever way seemed most stable, so if we don't like it tough. The little rocks are the leftovers, and I thought they were a nice touch that will probably be diminished by the glosso, but might still make an impact, hopefully. So without further ado(I know it's been a while since the last real update):

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Let me know if you think it needs more rocks. If it's in DIRE need of more rocks I can try to bust up another rock, but I'm trying not to. I think it looks ok, and all the pvc and meshwork will be covered by glosso, so you won't be seeing that, in theory. Try to imagine it with the pink highlighter glosso that LF liked. Let me know what you think.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

So far, it looks pretty much like a thing from outer space

OK, let me see if I get this right. The next step would be to fill the area between mesh and inner acrylic block with Eco. Then the process is completed. Sounds good to me.

The hurdles to overcome then would be:

- it may look odd for a while until enough Glosso is covering the waterfall.
- the angle may be too steep for the Glosso to rise up, but I doubt that, as long as it gets enough light from the top.
- Making sure that the Eco stays in the bag
- Overall, number and size of rocks required to make an impact are usually underestimated, at least when I am involved. So, if you have more then I would use them. On the other hand, only healthy and naturally grown Glosso would be able to climb up over the rocks.

That is it for now

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You've certainly got some mad scientist in you, I'll give you that much.

The little rocks will be overgrown in no time. In the end you may only have 4-5 of the big ones showing through.

How are you going to initially plant the glosso through the mesh?

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Back in the saddle!

I think it is a very interesting project you have. I would say that more rocks would look better, but honestly I know what you mean when you say you don't want to bust anymore rocks.

-Vincent

Sooo impressed with the time & effect & the result. Breaking rocks is a pain, but more rocks wouldn't hurt. Can't wait till this is finished & in your tank & we see the end result.

Keep the pics coming.

Cheers
TW

I could definitely start to visual it. It hope it works out, either way it's more DIY under your belt.

PS. I don't know what's gonna happend first your waterfall or my saltwater. I'm still deciding on equipment, but that's another thread.

My Scapes

The next step would be to fill the area between mesh and inner acrylic block with Eco. Then the process is completed. Sounds good to me.

Sounds good to me too. I'll get this all done sunday, along with a wet run.

The hurdles to overcome then would be:

- it may look odd for a while until enough Glosso is covering the waterfall.
- the angle may be too steep for the Glosso to rise up, but I doubt that, as long as it gets enough light from the top.
- Making sure that the Eco stays in the bag
- Overall, number and size of rocks required to make an impact are usually underestimated, at least when I am involved. So, if you have more then I would use them. On the other hand, only healthy and naturally grown Glosso would be able to climb up over the rocks.

hmmm - I'm not sure that I can allow any more lists in my thread....out with ye . but umm, anyways, that sounds about right, and the glosso will be growing down as well as up, hopefully. I have two more rocks, and they are large, and I'm thinking of using them in front of the waterfall and/or on top of the waterfall. That should make an impact.

You've certainly got some mad scientist in you, I'll give you that much.

muwahahahaha

How are you going to initially plant the glosso through the mesh?

I might not have to do this and just let the glosso grow up/down on it's own. If it won't do that for me then I'll try to plant it into the mesh, I haven't figured out how I would do that though.

honestly I know what you mean when you say you don't want to bust anymore rocks

For real. I think it would take a couple hours of pounding away at one of those bad boys to break it up. I'm not up for that, really.

Sooo impressed with the time & effect & the result. Breaking rocks is a pain, but more rocks wouldn't hurt. Can't wait till this is finished & in your tank & we see the end result.

Thanks tankwatcher. I can't wait as well(one reason I'm not busting any more rocks). Should be a good time.

I could definitely start to visual it. It hope it works out, either way it's more DIY under your belt.

True enough. I'll be bummed out if it self destructs though.

PS. I don't know what's gonna happend first your waterfall or my saltwater. I'm still deciding on equipment, but that's another thread.

Dibs on mine.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

This is really turning into a contraption! Right now it looks funny with the rocks all dangling from the mesh but once the gloso grows on it, it should look more natural than hanging rocks.

It seems the race is on!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Ok, finally I'm a bit ahead of schedule. I got a bit of time tonight after work to get things started. Really the only thing to fuss about right now is the position of the two large rocks in the final pic, as for now the netting seems to be holding, and everything looks good as far as leaks and equipment. On to the pics:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I just have to say, that this tank will be amazing if it works out like you plan, I have a bunch of riccia in my 46 bow so I may try to do something like this. Awesome idea!

I like the position of your two rocks. when the tank is finished I think that it will give it a sense of movement.

-Vincent

Well, hats off the the creativity of mattyboombatty. I hope you have time to finish this soon. Will eagerly check this thread. Can't wait to see it all together with water & riccia.

Cheers
TW

All right, we are getting somewhere

I take it that the area between net and center block is also already filled with Eco, right?

And I hope you filled the tank afterwards with water, I doubt that extended exposure to air (or lack of liquid as available in the bag) is good for the goodies in the Eco

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Awesome idea!

well we'll see if it is or not in a few weeks I guess.

I hope you have time to finish this soon.

Well I have to take a week off starting wednesday, so don't get your hopes up. I'm going to visit my sister and her brand new baby, Matt's an uncle for the first time.

I take it that the area between net and center block is also already filled with Eco, right?

And I hope you filled the tank afterwards with water, I doubt that extended exposure to air (or lack of liquid as available in the bag) is good for the goodies in the Eco

Yep and geez....give me a little credit.


So what do people think about the rock placement(glad I have budz approval, thanks )? Should I get another, or two?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

As I have stated before. It seems the rocks are only dangling on there. Once you get the Glosso growing it might help make them look like they are part of the hill. Overall the rocks look like they are in good placement.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Matty,

I would leave it as is, meaning the number of rocks. I could imaging that the glosso will have, at least initially, a hard time climbing over the rocks. So this way, you provide more Eco surface for it to grow in.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I guess there's a bit of confusion, sorry wings. I meant the two large ones that are sitting in the substrate. Those I can easily move around, stand more upright. I could get another large on and throw it up on top of the structure. I was wondering what people thought I should do with those.

Attached Image:

These two, or maybe more?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Sorry about the confusion. It was probably my fault!

The bottom rocks look pretty good. Maybe stand up the back one a bit higher?

On top maybe a medium large rock that is long and narrow?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Matty,
I think they look pretty good as this point, but that's the type of thing you'll have to adjust as the growth comes together.

My Scapes

Thanks guys, so I might want one more rock or two....maybe. I guess we'll see how it grows in.

So I planned well and put about 1ppm of ammonia in the tank before I left to see my neice for the first time(I'm still in Ohio). I also put in some mulm and bio rings from my display tank at work into my filter to start things out because the eco complete didn't seem to be doing anything in the few days it had been up. I'm not so sure that eco complete is actually biologically active. Might still be a great plant substrate though, I guess I'll find out. I'm hoping to come home to a tank halfway through the cycle. That way it will only be a week or so before i put plants and fish in.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well I'm back home today, and I tested for ammonia and nitrite. The ammonia is down from 1ppm to a little more than .1ppm, and there is no nitrite. I guess I need to test for nitrates but I would have to guess that it's all pretty much cycled straight through.

Also, the contraption is holding up well without any rips in the mesh or rocks falling off. So far so good.

So my plans are to take my saltwater light(36" 2X96W PC) and move it to my freshwater(buy new bulbs of course) and buy a new light for my saltwater tank. For anybody interested, I'm probably going to go with T5HO for the salt tank. I'm unsure whether I'm going with an IceCap retrofit or with a Tek Light fixture. So until I get a new light, I'll be maintaining the cycle with a little drop of ammonia every day or two. I estimate a couple weeks. Since my b-day just passed, I think I have enough gift money to cover it.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Good to hear all is going smoothly

Mmm, TEK lighting Those fixtures are gorgeous.

Since my b-day just passed, I think I have enough gift money to cover it.

That's the spirit! Spend every last dime on aquarium supplies!

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Back in the saddle!

Actually I ended up going with the IceCap retrofit kit. I heard they just do a really great job with T5s right now. That's the only setup I've seen actually going on a tank, and all his corals were just popping in color, even the sps. Now I can get myself some acros and actually keep them colorful. The lights were super bright, I'm not sure that I'll be able to run all 4 bulbs on such a small tank like mine. I'll have to get 2 timers and run 2 for 12 hrs and 2 for 6 maybe.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Blah blah blah....dark side stuff........



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

*shakes fish at wings*

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hate when you spray the fish slim all over!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Well I tested out the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate today, they tested out as .025-.1, 0.0, and 25 respectively. I would suppose that this means I'm pretty much cycled, the .1ppm of ammonia is probably just left overs from what I added yesterday, which was about .5ppm in the tank. This really is a great way to kill the time before I get my lights, worked out almost perfect, as I should be getting my SW lights monday(late due to bank error, never changed my billing address like I asked), so I can switch over monday or tuesday and get things started before classes start. Monday or tuesday I'll do near a 100% water change before I get plants and fish, start the CO2 and add macros and micros before I get plants and fish. Sound like a plan?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well, Amano uses little lighting, no ferts and no CO2 the first week or so of a set-up. I believe the Senske brothers do the same, at least very little in terms of ferts right off the bat. Others I guess do differently. I would be inclined to just give it a few days to let the plants settle in before pumping the CO2 and fert dosing. If they're adjusting to a new environment they won't do much in terms of fert uptake anyway. Plant heavy.

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Back in the saddle!

Also no fish for the first 3 or 4 weeks until the plants get going. They also do ALOT of water changes. Well that's the two camps right there. Does no3 and po4 cause algae or not? Will it cause algae in a non-planted tank, etc? Why does Amano and Senske not dose right away. Probably not a problem running co2 right away, especially if there are no fish in the tank.

My Scapes

I think the idea is that algae use N P etc just the same as plants do. When you first plant the aquarium the plants are going to take a few days to settle in before growing in earnest. Algae spores are present everywhere anyway. So if the plants aren't growing you're basically just feeding the algae. There's an interesting thread on APC - tetra, I'm sure you've seen it - about the realtionship between healthy plants and low algae growth, with some people hypothesizing that perhaps healthy plants give off some kind of algaecidal chemicals that keeps the tank algae free so long as the plants are growing well. It's an interesting concept, because it's the only idea ive read so far that reconciles the fact that plants and algae use the same elements for food, yet when plants are healthy and those elements are provided in abundance, algae is still kept at bay.

Amano is a meticulous note taker, and as he's had many years of experience with this I'm sure he's noted how fast plants start to grow and bud after initial set-up, so I'm pretty sure there's a reason for his methods. The Senske brothers set up tanks for clients in conference rooms etc, so they can't afford to have a "messy" period for new tanks. That's why I'm so interested in following their start-up methods. It works so well for them, why not tap their knowledge to start off one's own tank cleanly?

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Back in the saddle!

Yeah I have seen that thread. I've been on their alot talking the talk about light/waste/plantmass.

I see where your going with the algaecide thing, but I don't really buy that. I've seen some very healthy plants under a ton of algae in high-light tanks because IMO there is too much waste in the tank.

There is a thread on APC where someone asked Jeff S. how they keep a clients tank clean from the getgo. Pretty much what we've been talking about.

Shorter light duration
No fish (3 to 4 weeks)
Easy on the ferts
Lots of water changes

If you look at the list 2 of them curtail waste in the water column and the shorter duration would certainly slow any algae growth.

BTW - Jeff S also credits ADA Soil for getting the plants off to a fast start which keeps the algae from getting a foothold. He does mention that he still get's the diatom phase and dumps otos and shrimp a la amano!

My Scapes

Good point, and I'm by no means saying I buy it either, I just find it very interesting and something worth experimenting with and exploring further. No point in discarding a pretty much untested theory. I think it has more to do with having too much organic build-up, which is what bensaf has been saying for a while.

Either way taking things slow has shown to be a successful method for several well known 'scapers, so it's definetely one method worth following. There's one thread about one of jeff's tanks and I asked him a few questions about it, and I was shocked when he said he didn't even dose N or P, that whatever came about from fish stock and food was enough for the plants. That's ok for this tank in particular because it was mostly crypts and anubias, but still, pretty wild.

And yes, the diatom stage is unavoidable. For what it's worth, on my 4G I had diatoms for about 4 days. I wiped the glass clean after a few days, they came back for a few days, wiped it clean again and then they were gone for good. No otos or nothin'! Makes me think back to when I first set up my 46, how I was so worried about diatoms and how they wouldn't go away

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Back in the saddle!

There's one thread about one of jeff's tanks and I asked him a few questions about it, and I was shocked when he said he didn't even dose N or P,

Yeah, that's pretty much Amano as well, but doesn't Jeff S pretty much use ADA soil most of the time.

My Scapes

Yep, pretty sure Jeff uses it just about all the time.

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Back in the saddle!

Good discussion, but I dunno 'bout all that. Sounds like it's one way to do things, but not my way. That's the reason I wanted to fishless cycle my tank. This way I don't have to mess around with all that nonsense. I also have access to plants which are already established in my tank at work. They are already used to pretty bright light, CO2, and the whole bit. I'm going to grab some ceylon hygro, chain swords, ambulia, and some ludwiggia from that tank to speed along the procees. I'll get the ratty bottoms to stick in there, maybe get some baby's tears and glosso whenever we happen to get some in. I agree with you nowherman, about the organic buildup being the problem, mainly ammonia. With a precycled tank, there is no ammonia(and I've never had a diatom phase in a cycled tank). I plan on having fish in there at the most a week (probably a couple days) after the plants. With a cycled tank and healthy plants from the getgo, I see no reason why I should wait on a few fish.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients