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Alright. My first question is probably the most urgent. I've spoken briefly about this already and some of you might have guessed-substrate. I'm now going for a full blown planted tank in the neighborhood of 90g. I have Eco Complete, Flourite, Flourite Red, and another that escapes me at the moment available at my disposal.

Next question is lighting. I'm pretty much set on this Coralife Aqualight unit. 4x65watt 6700K fixture, for those wondering. Will this be adequate for most plants?

You can have a perfectly fine planted tank without high-light and all that high tech stuff. A low-light tank doesn't have the same kind of emergencies that can and have occured with the high-light tanks. Right guys?! There are many plants that will provide variety and beauty and won't cost a billion in power and fertilizers. Lights can be changed and different plants added later when you have more of a feel for it. Although if you really want to have a WOW tank then you do most likely want the high-light CO2. Although I am proud to say I have had a few people look at my humble low-light 25 and esp the 10 and say "WOW are those REAL plants in there?" It makes a girl feel good to know all her struggles and worries and hard work has not been in vain. Though I am of course often jealous of the tanks I have seen from these guys here, their tanks make me see green, with envy!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Alright, I've been going crazy the last several hours thinking about whether to pull the trigger or not on this project. Things got very expensive, very fast. I wasn't looking at spending over $1000 and it quickly became clear that this was inevitable-----Back to the drawing board as of 1.24.06.


Though I will admit, I am seriously considering an Oceanic 37g (24x18x22) and give planted tanks another shot.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having only 6,700K lights, NowherMan6.

I just happen to know Mike, and he is not too wild about "GREEN" .

And if one has the wattage luxury to play with the system a little (like I do) then having some different spectrum shining at you for part of the day seems to be a nice thing .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And Mike - in your $$$ math don't forget the cost of the plants, as you will need loads at the point of tank setup.

... and then double that amount for when you start to say, "Hmm, well maybe i want to try THIS plant... and THIS one... and maybe THESE too!"




But interesting point on the lights, LF. Never thought of it like that... so basically it's not that there's anything wrong with having all 6700K lights, just it would offer a nice change to have a little variety.

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Back in the saddle!

Mike and NowherMan6,

I don’t know if it came up since NowherMan6 asked the question about it, but here it is anyway:

The question was: why use another light temperature with the 6,700K (half and half):

Because the color is really green - short answer. The long answer: Mike will for about half of the time run only half the lights anyway (if he doesn’t he will be in trouble). These should be the 6.700K. The light temperature of the second half is not all that important, in my opinion and limited experience, as long as it is not outright useless for the plants (aka actinic). Having a different temperature will make the tank reflect its colors differently depending on how many bulbs are turned on. This makes it visually more interesting to me. I would say because Mike is ordering from Hello Lights he should get 2 additional 10,000K for half the price. Then he can play with them at his leisure.

Ingo

And Mike - in your $$$ math don't forget the cost of the plants, as you will need loads at the point of tank setup.

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Great info thus far guys, I appreciate it! I am on a budget, in the sense that I don't want to spend thousands of dollars. I can get the tank setup, minus lights and filtration for $350. Tack on another $250 for Eheim 2028 and heating element, and I'm looking at $600 before I even get it ready for planting. Another $200 for lighting, $100 on a regulator, Co2 tank, substrate, driftwood, plants, fish, etc, it adds up quick!

For the Co2 go for the best you can afford. Yes there are cheaper regulators out there, way cheaper, like some of the Chinese brands. Do they work ? Yeah. I should know I've gone thru 3 of them in the past couple of years......on one tank !!!!! Their functionality decreases quickly , mainly the needle valves which are very poor quality doesn't take long before they become to unstable to use effectively. Much more expensive in the long run.

Go for a decent regulator and save money elasewhere on the system. Solenoids and pH controllers are luxury add ons , they are not neccessary, nice but the system can work just as well without them. Knocking them out of the equation will save you a lot of bucks !!! The rest of the set up -check valve, glass diffusers are peanuts cheap. A used cylinder might save some cash.

For backgrpund it's pretty much dependent on the set up. I've changed one tank to a white background and it works very well on the other tank it wouldn't work so well.

The white is good if you have dark wood or rocks jutting out into open space, as in the pics you linked. The wood shape and structure would be hard to make out with a black background. But if there is a lot of bright greenery behind the wood then black works better. Light colored wood and grey rock looks better with a black background.

Backgrounds are something that can be added changed later. Set up the tank then you can test which looks best for your set up. Just hold some white paper card behind the tank and look , same with black, see which you like the most, which shows off the wood plants to best effect and go with that.

As for substrate, I've personally only ever used inert substrates. There are some benefits to the specialized substrates in the short term, but they burn out after a while and are no no different to a regular inert gravel. Again it's one of those things that are nice to have but not a neccessity. It's matter of personal choice, if there's a budget the money saved may be better used elsewhere. Depends on the size of the tank, for small tanks even Amano's substrates are very affordable, for larger tanks it may get too pricey for the limited benefits.Everything the plant needs can be added to the water column.

Whatever you choose adding some mulm is highly recommended, gives you instant bacteria and fert in the substrate.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Tainted Glory,
I have the top gun regulator and so does little_fish.
That lighting system should be perfect. I have a coralife as well.

Here's a pic of my co2 tank setup under my tank. It shows a 5lb regulator. You could go with a bigger tank, but it's probably not necessary. The co2 lasts a very long time.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Will any CO2 bottle due? Regulators are something I'm still in the dark about. Ingo recommended a unit in another thread that seemed practical, but was expensive, nearly $100. Can I substitute this with a slightly lesser quality product? Or is this an area I don't want to skimp?

The bottle will depend on where you get it. If you buy from an online vendor the bottle will be brand new looking, if you get one from a beer distributer or welding shop it'll look old. With a tank that size I would guess you want something in the 10-15 pound range. As for quality, as long as it's available for purchase it should be trustworthy, even if beat up looking.

The regulator, I have a JBJ unit, I've seen it for around $80 dollars. I think it's great, comes with built in bubble counter (used to gauge how much CO2 is being pumped) solenoid and check valve. Some have called that unit cheap - it may have been LF who said that - but it's solid, no problems at all. You don't want to completely cheap out on the regulator, it is attached to a big cumbustable bottle of gas afterall...


I'll leave the aquascaping comments to someone who's better at aquascaping than I . The cool thing about a lot of his tanks is that if you notice, a lot of the plants in those two pics aren't exactly high light/ picky plants - lots of moss, ferns, anubias etc. The key is in the hardscape and the design.

As for the background, I like black - lots of people like black. The photos you linked two appear photoshopped to me, either that or using special lighting for the shot. Amano is a photographer afterall, and the point of those pictures is first and foremost to take a great picture, not to show what the tank looks like just sitting around. Take it with a grain of salt.

I've seen this technique used in a lot of Amano's tanks and it seems practical and simple enough.

Yep, right up until you try to do it

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Back in the saddle!

For reference.

This is the regulator I spoke of earlier.
http://www.aquariumplants.com/cgi-bin/cart/pr007.html

This is the lighting setup I will be purchasing.
http://www.hellolights.com/484xcofraq4x.html

On another note, what size CO2 tank will I need?

Wow. Tons of into guys, I appreciate it.

One issue I noticed someone mentioned was CO2. When I initially began planning this project, I was going to go for a semi planted tank at best. However, it quickly evolved into a full blown planted tank. I was going to use Excel initially, but it's not practical. I'm going to run pressurized CO2.

That's actually my next question. Will any CO2 bottle due? Regulators are something I'm still in the dark about. Ingo recommended a unit in another thread that seemed practical, but was expensive, nearly $100. Can I substitute this with a slightly lesser quality product? Or is this an area I don't want to skimp?

Since I'm typing, here are two tanks that I would like to draw from in terms of inspiration.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/ImolaF430/007gallery.gif

I like the densely packed back half with the open front and right. I'm going to have some schooling fish, so it would be nice to give room to do so. I also liked what was done with the substrate. I've seen this technique used in a lot of Amano's tanks and it seems practical and simple enough. The Altums are awesome too.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/ImolaF430/018gallery.gif

I also find the balance in this tank interesting. THe right and left are densely packed with a narrow pathway dividing the two. (similar to Rock Valley (TM lol)). I like the true 3D nature of this setup. The planting does not seem terribly dense, so I can imagine fish weaving in and out.

Lastly, backgrounds have left me dumbfounded. I was set on a black tank background, but Amano's use of white, or misc light colors is great. It gives that illusion of endlessness, something I like.

Frank,

Just for the record, my comment re: the substrate was not to dissuade him from using the special plant substrates - my point was just that they're not necassary, and I've yet to see a heavily planted tank suffer from using only regular pea sized or slightly smaller gravel. As you said, a plant tab can also do the job. Lighting, CO2, supply of macros and using micros - these are the big things. Lack of growing space (shallow substrate) for heavily rooted plants is much more of a killer than not using eco-complete or florabase etc.

I guess it's all aesthetics - if you want a certain look for the tank but none of the plant substrates match that, then you shouldn't feel limited because they're not deal breakers. That said, I'm sure they're highly beneficial as well.

Using a laterite base would probably be a good comprimise

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Back in the saddle!

Hi,
I'm in agreement with NowhereMan as far as the lighting
is concerned. The four 6700K bulbs are balanced and would
give you the right Color Rendering (CRI) to view the fish
and plants, and would also supply the light in the right
spectrum for the plants as well.

As far as the lights coming on in sections is concerned,
I would only do that if with all four bulbs lit, you had
over 3+ watts/gallon, and you don't. For instance, on
my 30G tank, I have two, 65 watt, compact flourscent bulbs.
With one on, I have a "tad" over two watts per gallon.
With both bulbs on, I have 4+ watts per gallon. So I have
my hood on timers. I run one bulb for 10 hours, and the
second bulb for four hours, in the middle of the 10 hour
day. That simulates the noonday sun between 10 and 1400
each day.
With your tank you could run them all at the same time,
for 10 hours and be fine.

I'm in disagreement with the thought of using any old
substrate in the tank. We know that products such as
flourite will provide iron and other nutrients over
a long period of time (years) to the plants. Some
of the newer products loose that ability as they leech
out into the plants. Gravel by itself is inert, it is
SiO2, the same formula as glass. All it does is provide
a medium for plants to anchor themselves in.
The amount of nutrients that are available to plants
that are planted in regular aquarium gravel depends
solely on the output of the fish and amount of waste
fish food and any dead decaying plants in the tank.

Different plants take up nutrients at different rates,
and even different nutrients at different rates.
This can cause areas of depletion
that would need to be attended to with the addition of
solid fertilizers such as plant tablets or plant sticks
as well as the addition of liquid fertilizers. Much of
that can be reduced by the use of substrates such as
Laterite and Flourite.

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 23-Jan-2006 10:15

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

are you going to use some form of CO2 injection? Or maybe you are planning on using Excel for carbonates?

With that amount of light on a tank that large trying to use Excel to keep up with the plants' needs would be a fool's errand. Pressurized CO2 is the way to go, my friend.

As for substrate, just go with whatever you think looks best. You don't NEED any of those to have a gorgeous planted tank, if you find a nice small substrate that looks great to you, go for it, and go for a lot of it. Seachem makes very good plant tabs if you're worried about substrate fertilization, or if you want to stick one under a sword or vals. The plants will get a lot of their nutrition from the water column anyway.

IMO just as important as the kind of substrate is that you use enough of it, especially if you're using a lot of heavy rooted plants like swords or crypts. Nothing will stunt a heavy rooted plant like inadequate substrate.


LF, why wouldn't the 4 6700K lights look good?

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Back in the saddle!

Mike,

As we already discussed I cannot give you good advice on the substrate question.

For the lighting, Frank gave you already the thumbs up, but I have to add one point. A subsequent question arises from the use of this much light: are you going to use some form of CO2 injection? Or maybe you are planning on using Excel for carbonates? I would not use 4 6,700K units, I would try to balance it with 2 6,700K and 2 others (I have 5,500K but I think 10,000K would look good too). The unit you suggest has separate switches for each row of lighting (1 switch for back row, one for front), right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi,
First, congratulations on the 90G tank I bet it will
be a stunner to look at when you are done.

Lighting, that should give you around 2.888888 watts/gallon
and that should be great for low, medium, and some of the
high light plants. In short, yes, it should be fine for
most plants.

Substrate... Personally, I'd use one of the two flourite
products, which - depends on your personal tastes and I
would not scrimp. I'd do it right from the start and go
with 3-4 inches deep of 100% flourite. While I was at it,
I would also purchase a diatom filter such as one of
the larger Vortex brands.

This site will let you calculate how much you need to
purchase for the desired depth of substrate for the
dimensions of the tank.

http://www.plantedtank.net/substratecalculator.html

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 23-Jan-2006 00:39

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Alright, rather than clutter up everyone's threads, I thought I would make my own thread where I post up questions. I'm going to sit down later on tonight and come up with a few. For the time being, don't make any replies. Thanks guys!!

-Mike

Mike,

luvmykrib is right, things can be done differently.

But I guess you wanted to have the challenge of high tech, right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

TG,

I understand the feeling of being overwhelmed with the price of all this, it is quite an expensive hobby to say the least

It's just that there is a phenomenon in planting a tank where someone says, I just want to start out low light... and then a month or so later, Well i want to try out this new plant but Ill need higher light... so then they buy another lighting system, then CO2 etc. etc.

What I'm getting at is, long run it may be better and less expensive to start off with everything rather than build it up over time, going through several rounds of filters, lights and other equipment.

The alternative is, have a very low light 90g set-up, and if you want to experiment with higher light plants set up a 20L - lighting/ CO2 etc will all be less expensive because you'll need less of it than you would with a big 90g

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Back in the saddle!