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That is a great link, thanks for that.

If you need conversion "cup" to metric I can provide it

Thanks, that would be great. Or even, if you know how many metric mls are in your US cup. I've been caught out before, 'cause I think even our tspn's are different. We have 20ml to a teaspoon, but I think you have 15ml (or do I still have that wrong)

Oh well, guess there's no cherry shrimp in my future. You confirm what everyone else has said about discus & cherry's

EDIT - So your discus are good shot? Mine must need to be fitted with glasses

Cheers
TW

Ok, let the German explain you the American volume,

2 cups = 1 pint
2 pints = 1 quart
4 quarts = 1 gallon
1 gallon (US) = 3785 mL

Ergo: 1 gallon = 16 cups
And: 1 cup = 3785 / 16 = 236.56 mL

Hope this helps,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Ingo.

Our cup = 250ml, so there is a difference between your "cup" and ours.

Cheers
TW

Thanks for the conversion, Ingo! What's driving me up the wall is the fact that there is not even consistence with the conversion!! Anyway, it does not matter as long as the same (accurate or inaccurate) measure is applied for the substance to be diluted and the diluent.
BTW, you are still the world record holder (at least to me) with your "less than 1/16 of a tsp"

Mine must need to be fitted with glasses

Well, inbreeding and all that ...
I am also the proud owner of the subspecies "flying discus". Mine jump frequently out of the water to get food - including the primadonna.

Back to plants: picked up some wisteria, Ludwigia repens red (love the color) and some Hemianthus micranthemoides. L_F (Ingo) got me worried re excessive nutrients floating freely through the tank due to left over laterite and Eco Complete so I figured some fast growers might be helpful. I did my usual water change before the planting and 'dusted' leaves followed by a generous swig from the Excel bottle (STILL no CO2 tank !!!). There is definitively growth, while the chewed up L. glandulosa stems have lost all larger leaves, small new ones are sprouting along the stems and the R. indica is growing as well. The tank looks like an ill-designed flower bed by now ... photos tomorrow!

you are still the world record holder (at least to me) with your "less than 1/16 of a tsp

Who? Me?

Nah, many people do that. I actually don't take exact measurements anymore when adding such small quantities. Instead I use the 1/8 tsp and fill it only a tiny bit (for the 20G) or a less than tiny bit (for the 29G), or an almost medium bit (for the 40G) or an almost full (for the 125G) when adding P to my tanks.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

catdancer, Sounds like you've got lots of plants now , so its time to show us the tank !
Look forward to the Photo's

Garry

Yep,
I got lots of new plants. Some pics for starters (I work late and have to rush to take some photos while all the lights , meaning 260 W are on). Also, finally got my CO2 tank today so there is hope that I will not substitute this tank with Excel all the time. Front shot


right side

Some more detail
and my 'round fish'

I have to play around with the light a bit more, so please accept my apologies for the quality

catdancer,

looking very nice, are you interested in detailed analysis at this point or should we hold off for a while?

Overall though, you can use some more plants, you are about medium planted, IMHO.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

L_F:

Go ahead, that's what I am here for!! It is already very interesting to learn that in your opinion the tank is only medium planted, I thought it was stuffed

Looking forward to constructive criticism and learning

Hey, that looks like a really nice set up & much more roomy looking than my 43G. Your full shot shows a good mix of plants Vs free swimming space, which I think is needed for your larger fish.

Maybe some more ground cover - though I also like to see a little open gravel.

BTW, I found this link & thought you might be interested. You may already have read it though. http://aquaticconcepts.thekrib.com/Articles/PAM_Discus.htm

Sounds & looks like it is all coming together for you. Glad you finally have the C02 tank.

Cheers
TW

The tank looks really nice. I love the flat peice of wood. Nice contours. The plants all look real healthy. The 'round fish' are beautiful too. Great work!

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Robyn:

thanks for the link! I did not come across this one and will check it out

much more roomy looking than my 43G

Keep in mind that it is a 72 G the tank does look much more roomy since I completed the redo. Before, the vals had taken over the entire tank and I had two additional pieces of driftwood, which took up a lot of swimming room for the fish. Which, BTW, have nothing better to do than sticking to the front glass begging for food ...

Maybe some more ground cover

I like to have that but I guess I have to be patient .. Lilaeopsis does not appear to be a fast grower.

Hey, where is the critcism? Don't be shy

Matty,

thanks! Don't hesitate to criticise - I want to improve my aquascaping skills, though I know I have to be patient as I just finished the new set up

It is already very interesting to learn that in your opinion the tank is only medium planted, I thought it was stuffed

As I have 5 min between meetings, I will respond briefly now to just this point.

The most obvious part is that the entire front of the tank is pretty much open, as in "not planted at all", that is at least 1/4 of the entire available space.
Then, when looking to the midground, one can see quite a few open spaces between the individual plant groups, sure not as much as the foreground, but never-the-less.
And the background sees rather large gaps between the individual plant species and within the stem group between the single stems.

And that's why

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Cat , Gotta go along with Ingo . More is better with one reservation in that you could wait till things grow in to see where you need more plants .
But if it were me , I'd follow Ingo's advice and get the mid ground and background stuffed with plants and worry about the foreground later .
Up to you though and the look you want .
Have you got some idea on where you want to take the scape .? Lots of great sites out there with plenty of good ideas if you want some help.

Good looking tank with lots of potential .
Well done .

Garry

L_F 9Ingo)

thanks for popping in between meetings I see what you mean. Well, I hope that the plants will spread and plan to fill the gaps in the background with cuttings, I also asked the plant lady at my LFS to look for some specific plants they do not have on their regular order list to get the midground filled in. I am not opposed to have the gravel exposed (partially) as I like the color and looks of the Eco. Jus saw that two of the dwarf sags have formed runners and the tenellus start feeling better as well. they are located right corner front. Lilaeopsis is apparently a painstakingly slow grower but it ws the only forground plant that was available in stores and in decent condition. I did not want to try the expensive little pots of HC ...
The tall bacjground plant to the right (I am embarrased to admit that I always forget the name of this plant) has grown considerably and touches almost the surface ... to trim or not to trim?

Enough of the rambling, I am happy to get input and suggestions, looking forward to more. Also, I will start asking questions re fertilizer, right now I am anxious to do in this department

Have you got some idea on where you want to take the scape

I know it is embarrasing, but I have to admit "not really ... yet". All my imagination is spend on work and this is the first time that I can grow plants (submersed)! All my previous attempts failed due to lack of lighting. I thought I let the plants grow in and (hopefully) will get an idea as the tank comes along. Nevertheless, I am open to suggestions and looking around.

thanks for your input!

I am also the proud owner of the subspecies "flying discus". Mine jump frequently out of the water to get food - including the primadonna.

Do you mean they jump right out & you've had to rescue them. Mine have certainly splashed me & the carpet, but not jumped right out. I have been warned that discus are jumpers & jump right out of the tank, so wondered if you mean yours have done the same.

Cheers
TW

update week 2 after redo:

there is growth, mainly of stem plants and I did some trimming following L_Fs advice to fill gaps. trimmed tops were lanted inot the substrate and the rummies are hiding in the thicket ...Picture before

and after


Unfortunately, there is some other growth as well not that I am completely surprised ...

Did an ddditional water change and will perform another one during the week, also got 5 tiny otos, they are hanging out in the QT. BTW, the SAE are very talented in catching thawed brine shrimp .

My bachelor M. ramirezi met his new bride, she is still only half his size, below the object of his newfound affection:

and the admirer

hanging out together , sorry for the blurriness of the last photo.

Cat , love the shots of the M. ramirezi . Very nice fish , trust they will fall in love .

Like what you have done with the trimming .
Still think you need a big bunch of Swords or Vals in the rear . I would fill up the left side.
You could get a very nice look with Vals or Large Crypts in groups in the Mid ground as well .
Check out this site's Gallery .
http://www.aquariumdesigngroup.com/
Some great ideas here .

Hope this helps

Garry

Hi Garry,

I am getting better taking shots of fish, apparently not with the tank and plants. The right side and the middle back portion of the tank are stuffed. Really, I planted all the cut off tops there. The right side is still sparse but that is due to several big swords and I am reluctant to plant very dense because of them. I added some more plants that are not in the tank shot when the photo was taken, here they are
Nice Windelov to the left next to HM. I hope it will grow!
Bronze Crypt in front section middle/right with an SAE giving it a first cleaning


Unfortunately, there were no forground plants in decent condition available. I guess I have to be patient with Lilaeopsis, it is a VERY slow grower! Any suggestions here? Tenellus is sending out runners and so do dwarf sags but L is just hanging in there

Well, the aquascape might be an eyesore to some, but the rams like it and they spawned already! I am not holding my breath for surviving wrigglers as the other inhabitants are already watching ...

The rams were supposed to go to the 10 G for breeding - I had many successful spawns as well as hatching in the past in this tank. They will move soon as they will spawn again soon.

On a sad note: I lost one of the two surviving cories , as usual without any signs of ill health

Well, the aqua scape might be an eyesore to some

Why do you say that? I like what you've done with it

Good luck with the spawn.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Robyn, this is very kind of you!
I am a bit annoyed with myself (and the lack of a grand layout idea), plus the lack of growth of the foregound plants is getting on my nerves. Wisteria could also do a bit better ... on the other hand, and of course, the lower life forms are perking up!!!

On top of this, my SAE decided to forget about their middle initial and to go by SE instead. Brine shrimps and pellets are so much more to their liking!

(and their is an 'Error on page' which does not allow me to insert any smilies and pictures!). Not that I am in the mood for a traditional smilie, the grumpy and upset version would be a more appropriate choice ...

Oh well, the first spawn of the little female ram and her eager spouse turned into a much welcomed meal - as expected. I did another 30% water change during the week followed by the ususal one yesterday. Apparently, I introduced the "discus rage" virus as the primadonna discus who is lowest on the totem pole decided that enough is enough and started kicking back with a vengeance. By now, the tail fin of my smallest blue diamond is nipped and the fish is still on a rampage!! I might as well head for the medicine cabinet for prophylactic treatment against infection.

Cat , Hope I didn't give you the impression that your tank doesn't look good .
Sorry if thats the case.
It looks fantastic , my suggestions are just that .
I got a lot of advice ,ideas and help from this forum but I didn't take it all on board .
I like Robyn think you're doing a fantastic job and it will only look even better with time .

Keep your chin up !!!!!

Garry

Ahhhhh!

Garry, please! I WANT criticism, what are you apologizing for!

Due to the aforementioned change in diet of the SAE another trip to the LFS was in order:


These little guys are right now the riot of the tank, constantly up and down. They look like offspring of the SAE. They appear a bit oiverwhelmed by the culinary possibilities


I decided not to trim the stem plants this weekend but allow them to grow a bit more. The rotala is getting bushy and there are nice side shots visible, L. repens is also stretching. The foregound, however, is still pretty bare. A picture of the 'mobbing victim' at the end:

CD

A Fabulous tank you have here. I have no idea how you get the rams to live. i really need some help on that. Anyways I love the tank and the colors of the plants and fish.

Shane

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Shane,

thanks for your kind words. I have kept and spawned M. ramirezi (the 'German' ram) for many years during the first phase of my fish addiction and now again. I find them actually not difficult to keep, however, there are a few things to pay attention to:

1) These fish can be heavily inbred rendering them very susceptible to disease. I have seen plenty of washed out looking, slightly deformed fish at stores. Stay away from those! What you want is a fish that has a bright yellow color with black, blue and pinkish (if it is a female) undertones. If the fish are more yellowish-white, pass them on. The stomach of the fish should not be curved in and the fish should appear inquisitive and lively.

2) Rams do best in planted tanks with fairly soft, slightly acidic water. I say 'fairly' as they can live in moderately hard water very well. One of my canister filters contains peat. The water temperature should be relatively high, low to mid 80s. My fish spawn regularly in a 10 gallonpartially filled with RO water.

3) These fish are senstitive to nitrates. You want to keep the nitrate between 10 - 20. If you notice changes in behaviour (for example hiding of otherwise actively swimming fish) get the test kit out and get redy for a water change.

4) They can live well on flakes, but will be so much hardier if provided with frozen foods. These little guys are carnivores. Mine eat frozen brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, bloodworms and beefheart aside from pellets.

Hope this helps and good luck!

CD

That helps alot. I think it was the nitrates that have killed them in the past. What kind of peat are we talking about in the Filter and how do you know how much to use to lower the PH. I had my rams live for about 3-4 weeks before they passed on last time which is longer than any other time. I may try again after i can get some of the fish out of my 35 Gallon

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Shane:

I have an Eheim filter and am using the Eheim filter moss. One package goes per filter, I never noticed that this peat colors the water. Basically, you can use one pack for your tank as well. Now, I know that some of the commercial breeder/importer in my area use the Hagen peat granules, which supposedly are much more efficient to lower the pH. However, they color the water, a NO if you are concerned about light getting to demanding plants (Ingo's experience with his Alternanthera reineckii as an example). What is the pH of your water? it is quite possible that you do not have to do anything!

PH is 7.6 - 7.8 depending on which tank i use because the parents have a water softener which lowers the PH

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Week 5 after makeover:

I did not trim the plants last week. The tank before trimming:


The hygrophila polysperma (what a shock when I found out that it is considered an intrusive plant ) has reached the surface and I am suspecting that it added to the lack of growth problem of the wisteria next to it. Here is the tank after the 'cut':


What else: I changed the lighting cycle from 9 hours without a break (4.5 hours with 260 W, the remaining time 130 W only) to 5 hours in the morning, starting with 2 hours at 130, 2.5 hours full power and 0.5 hour 130 W followed by 3 hours of lights out. Then another light cycle of 0.5 hour 130, 4 hours full power and 0.5 hours 130 W again.

Some more plants were added: R. wallichii, another C. wendtii, this time the bronze colored cariety. A couple of weeks ago I had place a request for L. repens 'rubin' or Alternanthera reineckii with my LFS. Well, something went wrong and they got R. macrandra!!!

As soon as I entered the store a sales person jumped at me to ask me take those plants of their hands ... I ended up with 3 x of them, paid for only two. Half of the plants were mush when I got home ... and 50% of the R. wallichii had lost ALL leaves! Not to mention that these plants are not exactly easy to keep and I am a newbie at planted tanks

Here is a pic of the Crypt and the 'Red Butterfly'
These are the shortest ones (I had to cut most of the stems due to condition of leaves and stems)
The Indian intruder cuttings will make their way to the LFS tomorrow - apparently it is okay to sell as long as one does not transport across state lines. The plant is also sold by various companies and Amano uses it in some of his set ups. No problem here if some blooming ... releases it into the wild, the winter will take care of it...

catdancer, Tank looks fantastic . Like the look of the red plants as well , even if they are not the right ones
(Don't you hate it when LFS's get it wrong).
You have got C02 and plenty of light so they might be ok , hope so .
So it take it from what you said about the Hygro that you are pulling it out . What are you going to replace it with ?
You need some fast growers, if not Hygro are you going to rely on the Wisteria or get something else for the Hygro?

Does the Angel get along with the Discus btw?

Love the Photos well done , love to see some shots of the other inhabitants .

Garry

Tank looks fantastic . Like the look of the red plants as well , even if they are not the right ones

Like an exploded flower bed!

(Don't you hate it when LFS's get it wrong).

What upset me the most is the fact that they were waiting for me to show up instead of calling to let me know that they got them in! When I finally did they've been tightly wrapped with plant weights in a low light tank for almost 3 weeks (Past experience told me to wait for a phone call, plus the store is located in a suburb)
The discus and the angel get along very well. There is no aggression between these fish despite the fact that the angel is fully grown. Thinking about getting some 'round fish' yourself?

I am not replacing the hygro - the cuttings will go to the LFS, I would not dare to take out these fast growers, at least not at this point. Besides, I think this is a nice plant. Now, if only the Wisteria, Ludwigia and Rotala would grow faster ... Stargrass would be nice and C. balansae to replace the Vals, but I don't want to place another order with the LFS.

Despite the light and CO2 I am concerned about the Macrandra, I read that this is a notoriously difficult plant to keep!

Pics of other inhabitants coming soon! Any layout suggestions?

Wow, your tank is really coming along. Looks beautiful. Those splashes of red really brighten it up. Hope the Macrandra works out for you, as Gary says, you have the light & the C02 so all might be ok.

Just curious - what is your water change routine (eg, how much / how often).



Cheers
TW

CD

You never did tell me about my PH and the RAMs lol. I would love to have some of your giant HYgro if you can send me some. I have also noticed that the Wysteria has slowed down its growth in my tank.

Also i would suggest maybe

http://www.azgardens.com

&

http://www.floridadriftwood.com

instead of your local LFS for plants.

Shane

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Fishmonster,

sorry that I left you in the dark re the rams - without any intention! I am a bit confused reading your log: are you having trouble with the Blue "German" ram or the Bolivian ram? Your pH is too high for the blue ram, they really prefer slightly acidic water! The Bolivian is considered to be a bit more tolerant, however, I do not have any experience with this fish myself. If I were you I would get the Hagen peat granules and test what they do to the water. Discus breeders in my area praise them!

Thanks for your suggestions re plants - I arrived at this conclusion when it comes to plants that are a little bit out of the ordinary. LFS do not carry them and if they do, usually you get them in pretty bad condition beyond the point of return. However, I got a deal with my LFS (the sales person responsible for plants): they get my trimmings and in return they try to order what I want for free. Not bad, I think. Aside from this I am waiting for Robyn's report re plants from aquaticmagic, an eBay seller in Malaysia who sells also hard ware at very good prices. Other members have also ordered from this guy and have only good things to say (he has very nice and hard to come buy needle leaf java fern, etc). Problem with most online companies are shipment charges, I used to order with very good experience from www.aquariumplants.com, but it is worth only if you order a lot.

I do not have giant hygro, what you see is hygrophilia polysperma which is considered an invasive weed. You are allowed to sell within the state but not across state lines. Personally, I would not mind to send some trimmings at all ... tell you what, try to get it locally, I got mine without realizing what it is from an aquarium society (across state line)

Thanks for reply CD, i was just trying to find out what you were wanting to tell me..hehe

Anyways I am currently having troubles with my Bolivian Rams but i have tried to keep German Blues in the past to no avail. The longest i have been able to keep them have been a month. So I was trying to find out ways to keep them. Thats when my troubles with my bolivians started. So I will keep an eye on those. I will also look for the Giant Hygro in my local LFS

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Shane:

Just in case this did not transfer well: the plant in my tank is NOT the giant hygro (Hygrophila corymbosa), but the Indian swamp weed (Hygrophila polysperma). There is a narrow leaf variety of H. corymbosa available, but I have something different! H. corymbosa is not considered an invasive species and should be available at most stores (f not, they can order from their supplier)

Update week 8:

I did not trim last week as I wanted to give the plants a bit more time to fill in and the hygro is wanted by the LFS...
Very positive development since the introduction of my new lighting schedule; almost all algae on plants s gone, I saw it melting away. there is some fluff left on the intake of the Eheim but I do not care much - the algae eaters need something to munch on. The Rotal Indica is finally filling in and the tops are turning a nice pink, the tenellus is sending out runners and the R. wallichii which I acquired in exchange for trimmings is doing surprisingly well! Aside from being 'trimmed' by my one remaining flag fish lady!!! If she continues she will have to relocate.
HM is also growing, I hope to get a nice ground cover on the left side. the only problem is (as expected) the r. macrandra. Further nvestigation re requirements showed that this plant does not like it hot! I had reduced the temperature a bit, but it is still out of the range this plant is considered to be comfortable at. Supposedly higher temperatures will result in melting of the delicate leaves and I can see that taking place. I guess, only time will tell. the primadonne discus is back on the bottom of the totem pole, harrassed by the bigger of the blue discus (only at feeding time, though). Here are the photos, first of the tank before and after trimming

Does anyone know if lily pipes are available in clear plastic instead of glass? The intake of the filstar is a true eyesore.
Now some shots of the plants, first the r. Indica tops and another one

Now the tenellus and the brown wendtii which is also adjusting nicelysome of the plants on the left side of the tank

Cat WOW, the Tank is starting to really look fantastic .
The Tennulus looks set to take off and should provide lots of groundcover .
I'm glad to hear your Algae problems are under control . I've taken your
advice and changed my lighting schedule to something similar to yours .
Thanks for that advice .

The r. Indica looks fantastic as well , hope it continues to go well for you .

Look forward to seeing more shots as the tank grows in .
Well done .

Garry

Garry,

thanks for your encouraging comments. The tenellus is actually looking much better than in the picturse with many shots spreading. There is even an intruder on the left side of the tank which I will put back where it belongs! I had to start with fertilization several times a week (sticking to Seachem for the time being as I am too busy to figure out other fert regimens for the tank). Results were quickly achieved as the tops of the R. Indica turned nicely pink and the leaves strated to grow bigger again.

I am looking for suggestions of plants to replace the vals with? I took out a bunch of them on the weekend for the LFS and they are spreading again like mad (despite excel ...). Two pics of other inhabitants - the first of this brute of SAE and the second of the bravest representative of my school of rummy nose tetras

Guys,

I am beyond excitement: my discus have spawned!

Below a pic of one of the parents guarding the eggs ... no optimism that fry will hatch, a lot of the eggs are already whitish and it is possible that I have two ladies as well! I did not notice the spawn until I did my weekly big water change so I don't have a clue when the couple started with reproduction. Nevertheless, I am HAPPY! Apparently the discus like the conditions in their home and I am doing something right

Claudia , Well done . Its just the biggest thrill As I'm sure your now well aware.
If they are new to parenting it may take them a while to get the hang of it , but you never
know . You may be a proud parent sooner than you think.

Could be very lucrative as well

Anyway good luck

Garry

wow Claudia, that is so great. Be sure to keep us posted. It will be great to see, them hatch, but I guess the parents will have to be execellent guarders, to save them from your other hungry fish in there.

Fingers crossed they are up to the task.

The best thing though is, as you say, they must really like their home. Good job

Cheers
TW

Thanks guys-

my cobalt blue/pigeonblood love birds have to go to parenting school!
In the meanwhile until their graduation I am trying to figure out the dynamics within the discus group to understand the social behavior and what I actually have in the tank with respect to gender distribution. Any input welcome!
Here we go: Currently there are 4 discus in the tank: no1 which is the big red pigeonblood shown guarding the eggs. This fish is the one the remaining 3 are interested in getting close and in its good graces. Nobody challenges this fish.
Primadonna is the small red pigeonblood and lowest ranking on the totem pole. Everybody chases and bites the poor thing who nevertheless, tries and tries again. Large cobalt blue is the fiercest enemy! This is also the one that is frequently swimming with no1 and was participating in fanning of eggs and protection from other fish. However, this guy (?) is still holding its options open! Most of the time with no1 but can be distracted by small cobalt who tries to lure him/her away from no1. Works, once in a while.

1) no1 is female and all others are male with Primadonna being the lowest ranking male

2) no1 is female and so is the small cobalt blue. primadonna and big cobalt are males; would explain their aggressiveness toward each other from early on

3) all are female except the small cobalt who is not at the height of his virility (yet), thus ignored as a potential breeding partner by all the girls


I am clueless

Your tank looks gorgeous

Congrats on the discus spawn! You must be doing everything right!

><>

Aside from discus psychlogy:

the Indian swamp weed was trimmed again and two giant vals went to the LFS in exchange for C. balansae. I also planted another C. wendtii (red) in the foreground and some Pilipis (?) diandra to make up for the majority of the heat sensitive R. macrandra. R. rotundifolia and E. tenellus are growing nicely, the first with pink tops, close to a trimming next weekend, the latter forming a nice carpet in the foregound. The big red C. wendtti is growing one (long) leaf after the other. No algae anymore!

Hey CD you can always send me your trimmins. BTW congrats on your breeding. You are doing an awesome job. I cant wait to see new babies

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Quick update:

exactly 8 days after their first attempt my big pigeonblood discus and the Big Blue one did it again: They spawned!!

The gender mystery is also solved: Pigeonblood is the dad (!) and Big Blue is mom, cute little teenage girl.

Now I will have to substantiate my plan of a 29 G bridal suite for the happy couple as they are serious about each other ... Planted, of course this is supposed to be fun and I have no intention to join the legion of bare bottom semi-commercial fish breeders .
Pics to follow

A little bit more than 24 hours after spawning:

Some of the eggs are affected by fungus (clearly the parents have to learn ...) and 'the heat is on' with the other inhabitants showing increasing interest.

First a pic of the spawn: this picture was actually taken 3 hours after spawning and all eggs look nice!
Mom making sure that everything is okay . Unfortunately, dad is not (yet) up to the task to remove eggs affected by fungus without removing adjacent healthy ones ... just learned from an experienced discus breeder that 'teenage couples' can require 5 to 6 spawns for hatching and mucus development to feed the fry. Way to go

Could be very lucrative as well

Garry, you would think so considering the prices discus fetch. However, it requires a dedicated set up and a lot of time to successfully rear larger batches of fry. I visited a semi-commercial breeder yesterday and was told that it is still not more than a hobby that supports itself and does not provide a real plus (and he has about 30 tanks!) and does some import as well.
I bought two discus from him (a 5.5" blue diamond male and a gorgeous, slightly smaller red turquoise female). They are currently hanging out in the quarantine tank together and appear already very fond of each other

Here is a picture of a inhabitant who managed to avoid the camera for a long time. The only ancistrus in the tank


Plants continue to do well with some of the melting R.macrandra recovering, new growth is bright red




and even the new leaves of the originally dull colored C. wendtii are turning a brighter red

I owe Robyn an apology for not responding to her question in a more timely manner :

Just curious - what is your water change routine (eg, how much / how often).

Nothing special, really. I do 30% every weekend with a thorough siphoning of the substrate (a nightmare thanks to Eco-complete compared to gravel!) and a smaller, about 10% change midweek with siphoning of the gravel as well. What I have increased is fertilization due to plant growth, but again, nothing sophisticated like EI or something like that. I am a dedicated fan of Seachem products and use them as recommended and so far, the plants like it! Any suggestions and constructive criticism welcome.

You were talking earlier of a honeymoon tank for the parents? Any plans on that yet? Also how many pair do you have in this tank?

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Shane:

That's a good question! I just introduced the two discus I bought from the breeder(female blue turquoise and male Cobalt blue; pics to follow) . I know that I have one confirmed pair - the eggs (eaten again) were showing signs of pigmentation. Introduction of Miss Blue Turquoise and of Mr Blue revealed the gender identity of the remaining stock: Primadonna (the little dirty red) is male and so is small cobalt blue. The latter is trying to convince blue turquoise of his charm and good looks. Too cute, he is half her size.
So, if everything works out, I might have two pairs in the tank. The honeymoon suite for my big pigeonblood and his bright blue bride is going to materialize soon. I don't know if a log about breeding would be appreciated, though ...
I already ordered the lighting and the filter, space for the tank is available. I'd say two weeks from now! Thanks for checking in. Need trimmings and how is your tank going???

my tanks is okay now i found the problem with the leeching calcium. But i need to add more plants to the tank. I am currently growing some cuttings and other plants in my 10 gallon ready to transplant to the tank once the have grown some

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

So what was behind the mystery of increasing pH and hardness? I followed your log and am curious to learn.

Hi Claudia

Conditions must be great in your tank, cause for sure romance seems to be going strong

I'm with you on discus being hard work for breeding - that's why my divided tank is for apisto love birds, and not discus. I've bought several recently written discus books & everything I read on discus fry rearing talks of bare bottom tanks, water changes after each feed & it seems all work, work, work. Even with all the work, it seems you still will not make money on your discus - if you are lucky you will break even, but certainly not to expect more.

Thanks for the info on your water change routine.

Your plants are really looking great & your R.macrandra is looking very pretty. Your crypt too.

How do you like the eco complete? I almost went with that in my new tanks. I bought it & it's sitting in the garage, but in the end I went out & bought the ADA asquasoil instead. When I get around to it, I'll sell the eco complete on ebay (I won't be allowed any additional tanks, so it's no point keeping it).

Look forward to checking in next time, to see how the love birds in your tank are doing & what they're up to.

Have fun.

Cheers
TW

Hi Robyn,

thanks for popping in. I think I inflicted mayhem and made the love birds a bit unhappy by introducing the recently purchased discus couple. They are big fish and were extremely cramped in the quarantine tank. As they displayed a healthy appetite and curiosity I decided to move them already. So much for my quarantine principles

I am intend to set up a discus bridal suite based on my previous experience with other cichlids - if the couple is constantly spawning they are a burden to the other inhabitants and in the long run you have unhappy fish as they do not succeed in rearing their young (or maybe it is me who feels for them watching doomed attempt after doomed attempt). I might go with plants in shallow pots to keep the cleaning easy. The breeder I visited had some of his tanks set up like that AND he has a 100 G living room tank with several breeding pairs that is fully planted and raises the fry successfully. This is proof and I believe that it is possible to rear discus fry in planted tanks - just not in large numbers and I have no intention to do so (I have a job ). I wa also told tht the color of the young ones will be 'dirty' pigeonblood (balck markings like dust particles, personally I think this looks attractive).

Eco-Complete: I like it for the look, though it is a bit arteficial (where do you find an all black bottom in the wild?) What I do not like is the difficulty keeping it clean! I siphon uneaten food and you-know-what twice a week and it was soo much easier with gravel! Due to the small grain size of individual particles you always disturb the upper layer even if extremely careful. The plants do very well, though. On the other hand it is hard to tell how much the substrate contributes to it with all the fertilization and light.

What made you decide to go with ADA aquasoil instead of Eco?

Claudia

Wish I could link to that discus forum I visit. If I could, I'd show you some pics of a member's tank who has the perfect compromise between a bare bottom & planted tank. He has great pieces of driftwood, some quite large, others small. He has heaps of plants attached here & there to the driftwood, as well as some potted plants here & there. Actually looked really nice & was something I could consider doing in the future.

I decided on the aquasoil as I've used it before. It's the substrate in my 20G & 23G tank. Love how it keeps the pH buffered low & the water soft - perfect for apisto breeding. Love how it looks too, even if dark substrates aren't natural looking, it's the look I like best. When tetratech showed us his new igwami (spelling???) style tank & he was using aquasoil, that was the final thing that pushed me away from eco & back to ADA.

Good luck with your bridal suite

Cheers
TW

Claudia

Beleive it or not, both the petrified wood and the river rocks were leeching the calcium. So i ended up removing both of them. So now i have just the eco complete in there. I may have to hold off on the tanks for a while as i damaged my car last night and so i have to pay for repairs.

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Wish I could link to that discus forum I visit

right click, save target on your computer nad paste here! It will work

Love how it keeps the pH buffered low & the water soft

this was the only reason I briefly considered buying it for my tank but then I checked the price on the ADA web site and decided otherwise as I got a good price from my LFS for Eco. I was declared borderline insane for paying what I did for the Eco ("for dirt", his words, not mine) Plus, I am still considering getting a real RO/DI installed to replace the cheap mini-version that I purchased for my Apisto breeding tank. An exquisite pain as it produces only minimal amounts over a considerable period of time and requires constant adjustment of flow rate, I also hauled RO water home from the lab.

Love how it looks too,

Hmm, here I have to admit that I never saw Aquasoil live, from the pictures it looks pretty much like Eco to me.

So you think the slowness of my java fern is due to lack of CO2 injection? Maybe I have to be just a bit more patient?

I am not happy with the new discus and consider returning them to my LFS, especially the male! I will post pics and would appreciate a second opinion but these fish compare poorly to the ones I already had.

get going on your new tanks!!!

Gee, Shane!

Sorry to hear about your car. Hope you are alright. What a bummer.
Calcium from petrified wood - who would have thought that. good to know that this is possible - I will check the few pieces that I have in my 20 G breeder.

Hope the repair will not hit you too hard.

Claudia

right click, save target on your computer nad paste here! It will work

It's not that I don't know how to link, but that usually if I try to post a link from an Aussie on-line LFS, or another forum, it get's censored out. Doesn't happen with other links, (eg linking the tropica riccia info last night) Not sure why this happens, but maybe it has changed, so I'll give it a go. Anyway, a proper planted tank is still heaps nicer IMO, but it is a nice compromise & would certainly make keeping a breeding tank spotless much easier. http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=113824&highlight=bare+bottom+planted#113824

Re: the aquasoil. I like it, cause I do like dark substrates, but if you don't like the look of eco, you mightn't like ADA. ADA's more of a uniform colour than from eco complete is, but I haven't seen eco in real life (only pics of tanks here on FP). My bags are unopened, still the cardboard delivery box.

I think Java Ferns, including this type, are generally slow growers, full stop. Mine has probably grown slowly, but I don't really want it to grow at all. Trimming takes away the fancy end pieces.

Shane, bummer about the car news. Hope it isn't too expensive to fix.

Cheers
TW

It's not that I don't know how to link

I don't doubt that, thanks for trying anyway, Robyn. Providing a link is one option but what I meant was right click on the picture and save the picture. You can copy almost any picture from the internet and save it to your computer (isn't that scary?). Exception if it is embedded in PDF. Never wondered what trimming might do to a Windelov leaf - no wonder, so far trimming was not required in my tank!

Claudia

Hi Claudia - did you notice the link does work though.

Cheers
TW

It does, but I am still not deemed worthy enough to enter as a US resident. What I don't understand is why US and UK etc are okay here as it is also Aussie based! Anyway, not this important but thanks for trying!

BTW - my new male discus is in need of an optometrist. Food is flying right into his eyes and he is still clueless

That's a shame you can't get in, but it can't be because you are from the USA. The author of that thread lives in Strasburg, Pennsylvania USA & the site has members worldwide.

It must be still something to do with this site blocking you, or something on your PC doing the same. I recently had a new hard drive installed at work. Since then, I cannot open FP at work, yet I can open the discus one & many others. So it is something in my hard drive returning an error when I try logging onto this site.

Rather than clicking on the link, try copying & pasting in your browser. If this fails, when you are logged out of FP, try typing in www (dot) discusforums (dot) com . Either search for the thread, or continue typing the thread details in your browser, after "com" , of course.

BTW, why don't you like your new discus?

Also, what is your split lighting sequence. I should be turning my lights on in the new tank tonight & I'd like to try your sequence out.

Cheers,

Cheers
TW

Claudia , Sorry to hear that your new fish are causing a few problems . You might just
have to wait untill they sort out the pecking order .

Love to see some shots of the new ones .


Garry

Robyn,

apparently I misunderstood when we discussed the problem with entering the discus forum! Thanks for clarifying. Well, I am denied access upon registration because of my private e-mail adress. This is something I don't understand.

My 'split' or 'siesta' lighting is based on plant physiology: algae require long periods of lighting to efficiently perform photosynthesis for energy, while higher evolved plants get by with blocks of 4 to 5 hours. Here is what I do: 5 hours in the morning interrupted by 3 hours lights off (2 will work as well) and again 5 hours. This schedule is also used by quite a few European planted tank enthusiasts. I had problems with algae for a long time and after changing to Eco it was becoming more and more apparent. Within two weeks after changing to 'siesta' I saw the algae peel away and die! Now I have little to NO algae and substitute the diet of my algae munchers. This schedule is also recommended by Dennerle, next to Tropica the biggest distributor of aquatic plants in Europe.

The new discus: they are simply not as pretty as the ones that I have. Kind of dull colorwise and the face of the male is not so handsome (here I have to admit that this is because he is an 'older teenage' male. I learned from the breeder that sexually mature males all develop this type of 'nose'). I looked at his breeding pairs and liked only the females. So far, my pigeonblood male did not develop it, he is still too young. I will post pictures and will ask you what you think of them, fellow discus lover! Otherwise, they are very nice fish and get along well with the other inhabitants, they are also hearty eaters.

Garry, Robyn, here is a shot of the female discus:

I hope that the red markings will develop a bit more with nutritious, high quality food. The male is still reluctant to pose for the camera.

Hi catdancer. Admittedly I have not been reading this thread, but have peeked in a couple times to look at pics. Many people peek, but never comment. I love your red stripedty discus & the purple colored one too, along with the rams. That red discus is just breathtaking!

I like the "before the trim" look on your tank. Just personal preference I guess.

Anyway, great tank & fish, you should be really proud!

Oh, I did read about the bleach solution for algae. I will keep that in mind. I did try it on a water lettuce plant I got from a pond, just to kill anything bad that might have been on it. I didn't measure, just guessed, & left the plant in it for 10 min. Too much of everything I guess, cause the roots fell off & the plant started being eaten away with the leaves coming off & it looked kinda like a pale green wet noodle. I was sure it was a goner, but against hope, I put it in the tank. New leaves & roots have grown in! That is one tough plant! I will know better next time.

Fish_patty,

Thanks for popping in! You know, the tank before the trim does look better in picture than it does when you are standing in front of it. The hygro covers way too much and I hope to replace it partially with some other plants soon. Stargrass, for example, but the LFS' here in the area never carry it and I have to give myelf a big enough push to order online.

I will forward your compliments to the discus, they will like it as they are quite vain!

The bleaching is a good treatment for otherwise dommed plants but it requires careful watching, glad to hear that it worked out for you as well.

Claudia