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Babs,

The reactor will have an opening at the top and bottom (as well as a place to attach the tubing carrying the C02). The outlet from the powerhead is attached to the top of the reactor. This is done thru either a connecting pipe or tubing, so the flow of water from the powerhead is redirected into the reactor where it will then come out the bottom. Of course to facilitate the mixing of Co2 into the water there will be some form of media between the top and bottom of the reactor to break up the bubbles, this also break up the flow from the power head.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

What kind of trouble have you heard about the Hagen bubble ladders?

EDIT: I just did some checking on the web and found some other threads on the topic. One lady set hers up about 10 days ago and is giving blow by blow . It took hers a couple days to really get going.

I measured the temp in my basement and it is 69F so at that temp, it will take longer. I know from baking and testing yeast, it goes faster at warmer temps and slower at cooler temps.

I do hope I can save my last remaining tiger val. I had won several bunches on aquabid just over a year ago and I loved it. My first mistake was that I trimmed the really long leaves to fit in my tank . Bad mistake as they wilted down. They had periods where they made new shoots and did well, then the young ones would die off. It has always done a little better with Excel so I'm hoping a steady supply of co2 will help it.

As unsightly as it is, I put the bubble ladder direclty next to the val . It should get the most co2 :88)


Last edited by Cory_Di at 06-Feb-2005 21:59

I've heard of people having trouble with the hagen ladders. I'm currently using the tubing into the intake" system, and while it seems to do a decent enough job, it does create microbubbles when it comes out of the outlet.

I might try something different, later.

Sounds good. I'm contemplating DIY, but may opt for the Hagen system for my 20 long.

As far as I know the Hagen system uses a "ladder" system. The diffuser is a long container where the bubble has to travel down thru a snaking enclosed tube. The theory being by the time the bubble reaches the bottom of the "ladder" it will have dissolved into the water. The ladder is to keep the bubble in contact with the water for as long as possible. I think I'm right in saying no power is required.

Another method that does NOT require power is an atomizer. This is a small bell like piece of glass or plastic. The airline tube delivering the co2 is connected to the atomizer. The co2 entering is crushed into tiny bubbles by the atomizer and then float out and up where they are trapped by the the "bell" to stop them from floating to the surface, again the theory is by keeping the bubbles in contact with the water for as long as possible they will dissolve into the water.

Maybe somebody has more diagrams as visual aids to my poor describtion.

There are literally hundreds of diffusers/reactors on the market and a few different ways that they can be DIY'ed easily and cheaply.I have some links that show how to make your own reactor easily and cheaply I'll dig them out.

Sorry edit typo:Atomizer should read does not require power.


Last edited by bensaf at 05-Feb-2005 23:49

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

What method of diffusing the bubbles does Hagen use in its co2 delivery system?

Does anyone know if the Hagen system requires any kind of electricity. I'm kind of maxed out on outlets and have been thinking of getting one. I kind of like to take stuff out of the box and run with it.

http://www.petguys.com/-015561176900.html



Last edited by Cory_Di at 04-Feb-2005 10:44

Cory,

If co2 is injected directly the bubbles simply rise to the surface and pop - bye bye c02.

There are a number of ways to do this. The most efficient is to use a reactor such as the one Bonke shows.

The metod you saw in the magazine is the simplest and cheapest and probably the least effective (although it does work). The tube is inserted to the inlet and the bubbles are sucked up into the filter where the impeelor will break the bubbles into tiny bubbles which are then dissolved in the water. The water coming out from the filter is now co2 enriched. This is the easiest and cheapest way to it as no extra equipment is needed. If using a canister filter it can be quite efficient as the canister system is a closed loop. If using a a HOB it will be less so as the water coming out is in contact with air for a brief period and there is some surface agitation, but it will still retain some Co2 -every little bit helps

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Since we're on the subject

I just saw a diagram in an old Aquatic Gardener Assoc magazine that showed a DIY using a pop bottle and they had the airline going up into the filter intake of the power filter.

I don't get it - wouldn't that dissipate the co2?

Babel, here is a schematic of what Bensaf is talking about, whne the CO2 bubbles enter the reactor, they want to go upwards. They then get into the water stream coming from the powerhead outlet, which forces them down, breaking up the larger bubbles into smaller ones, as these bubbles still want to go up a circular stream of CO2 bubbles forms within the reactor, allowing for high adsorbsion of CO2 into the water.

Dr. Bonke attached this image:

I've actually set up my 55g as a river tank, with powerhead outlets blowing, very low, across the tank (unidirectional flow) back towards the filter, the flow in the forward part of the tank is broken up by rocks and driftwood, with java fern, and lillaeopsis around the place, behind a wall of driftwood I have the most enormous ludwigia and Hygrophilia, and Limno.

Anything is possible if you se it up right

After gutting my 20 long of pretty bad looking plants today (sooo much debris on them), I couldn't help thinking about flow throughout the tank.

In a planted tank, do you want reasonable current hitting most plants? How do you achieve this without causing too much surface current and losing precious co2?

I'm concerning myself because I may actually consider a cannister filter since it allows you to position things to direct current.

How do the fish deal with it? Do they like it?

Last edited by Cory_Di at 04-Feb-2005 10:43

Okay not to steal the thread from Cory_Di, but I cant visualize the powerhead joined to the co2 unit, I'll make another thread if necessary .

An idea if you have a larger powerhead just lying around that you want to use would be to go to home depot or the like and get acrylic hose that could be attached to the output of the powerhead, then a series of holes to allow the water to flow out evenly...I supposed this is the idea behind these spraybars I keep hearing refered to .

^_^[hr width='40%']
"The rain is falling down like silence in a shroud"

Babel you are correct (as always !) plants do indeed enjoy some current although by no means a neccessity. But it needs to be very gentle, as Frank mentioned.

No plant will survive parked right in front of a powerhead of even a relatively low output.

There are a number of ways around this such as aiming the output at the sides or walls of the tank to break up the current or using a couple of weak power heads rather then one stronger one. Like moondog mine is linked to the Co2 reactor so this breaks up the output nicely leaving a gentle flow coming from the reactor.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I was thinking of a a somewhat gentle current, but something to keep debris from settling on top of delicate leaves. The hornwort was absolutely covered in it. Yet, the piece by the outflow of my filter remains free of debris and as pretty as the day I put it there. This is what had me thinking about current - just a way to keep that stuff floating and out of the plants so the filter can pick it up.

IM(limited)O, moondog has one of the best solutions for a CO2 added tank in the powerhead to move the water without breaking the surface. I have a small powerhead in my 20 which is turned on from time to time for movement, the AC 150 then picking up much more than it would have otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but just like some fish like more current don't some plants appreaciate it as well I thought I remembered somewhere that java ferns have been known to cling to the side of a waterfall, and that some plants actually appreaciate water flow among the roots (can't remember which plant on that last one).
Either daily surface sweeps with a gravel vac or a powerhead deflected by aiming it @rocks wood or the tank walls, or the spray bar would help I'd think.

^_^
[hr width='40%']
"The rain is falling down like silence in a shroud"

Interesting.

I know some of that debris is just my tank being out of balance. My nitrates have tanked to zero again (after being high), and my phospates are out of control. I discovered some is coming from the tap water, the rest is likely coming from some medicated food pellets I drop in for the barbel-less cories. I have to go another week on them. All of my plants had like ugly fuzz all over them - not green either. More like dirty. I'm also thinking it could have been dead algae as I've been dosing with Excel more vigorously and my algae's been disappearing.

Hi,
Actually, I think we are giving a bit too much consideration
to water flow within a planted tank.

At equilibrium, CO2 in the tank is running around 5mg/l.

With the spray bar working, or the biowheels paddling,
you increase the O2 levels, slightly within the tank and
you disrupt the surface tension allowing any excess CO2 to
escape.

I mentioned "excess" CO2. If you are injecting DIY
CO2, then you would want low currents within the tank.
They should be enough to circulate the neutrients around
throughout the tank for the plants, and you would not
want to agitiate the surface.

If you are injecting CO2 with a bottled system, then
you can, within reason, always increase the rate of
injection to compensate for any losses due to "some"
surface agitation. You tank might runout of CO2,
maybe, a month earlier at the higher rate.

As for the fish themselves, look at the shape of them.
You would not find a Discus or Angel fish in a high
current stream. However zebras and the like love to
frolic in high currents. In any tank that has high
currents, there should be decorations (rocks, driftwood,
something) to disrupt the currents and give the fish a
place to rest out of the currents.

None of the plants that I know of will survive in a tank
with high currents. The constant battering of the leaves
and stalks will eventually kill them. Even the long thin
leafed ones like Val or Sag, while they will lengthen out
with the currents are rather fragile and will break off
after a while of fluttering in the "breeze."


Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 02-Feb-2005 10:00

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Cory_Di

I dont have Co2 but I do have an Eheim Canister it has a bar which I can change the direction of the out flow three ways. I have two going across the surface a shallow angle and one going deep

It is situated across the opposite end to the intake. It does not seem to have any effect on the plants or the fish.

With a bar like that I think you could have it at a depth that would give you a good directional current without altering the water surface.


Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
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what kind of fish do you have? most schooling fish should like some current, but other fish may not. i use a sponge filter/powerhead (which mixes my co2 for me) and a HOB whisper for my tank. i can tell from the way the food floats around that i don't quite have a current all the way around my 50g, but i just try to keep the water levels at a manageable level to prevent co2 loss from surface agitation.

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"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman