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Hi again!

I was just browsing the LFSs and i seem to have came upon my favorite LFS, when i saw the Eco-Complete & the Flourite. I was considering buying one, but i didnt know which one was best for my 35 hex. I have read that Eco-Complete was the best substrate, but I also seem to have read that flourite is good too. I saw the Eco has a black tint to it, and the Flourite has a gray tint. I personally dont matter, because it is going to be covered with gravel, but which one would be best?

I also saw some laterite clay in the store for $5! I wanted to get it for my 20 gallon, but i didnt know if it was good, or if it was able to be put in an already setup tank. Anyway, i saw in one of my threads that it is good to use. I will use it, if i can get some good feedback.

I have also heard that soil can be used?!?! If so, how effective will it be, and what are the downfalls? Also, what type of soil can i use?

As for the gravel cover up, the smallest i can find is Pea Gravel, and i will get that, but i also seem to have found two types of Pea Gravel. There is one that is coated with acrylic, sold by Topfin, and another that is just plain and regular gravel with no coat and an un-uniform size. Which one should i get?

I am looking to find a hood with 1.5+ lighting for my tank, but since it is going to be a hex, i will have to find a coralife fixture. Can i use a bluish light, so that it will penatrate deeply? I have read that somewhere.......

My plant stockings are as follows:

-Java Fern
-Anubias
-Some Crypts
-Amazon Sword
-Vallisneria american
-Onion Plants
-Banana Plants (Nymphoides aquatica)
-Aponogeton Hybrid ulvaceus and crispus
-Wisteria
-Any other suggestions?

Also, shall i put in some ferts even if i have a nutritious substrate? This will be a no CO2 tank, Maybe. I will be sotcking it with loaches and Cyprinids. Maybe not the loaches, because wont they disturb the substrate and plant roots?

I will be looking into a UGF with a submersable powerhead(maybe), and a Aquaclear Filter(The 300/70). Thats about the most in biological filtration i can get! The aquaclear has a huge media basket for maximum beneficial bacteria. I am also going to get a UV sterilizer for the tank. It is an internal one with a powerhead. Here is a Product Description. UV Steriliser What is the best wattage for my tank?

So overall, i got this whole tank planned out. I just want to know what substrate to get, and which is better.

Thanx sooo much! In advance....

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Hi there,

I don't have a lot of time (work) but I would like to comment on this one line of yours:

"I personally dont matter, because it is going to be covered with gravel, but which one would be best?"

I doubt that this would work. I believe the lighter and smaller components of Eco Complete and Flourite will work their way up to the top of the substrate, either from replanting/rearranging or from vacuuming. It will take some time, but it will happen. Both of these substrates are meant to be full substrates and not mixed with gravel in layers. Laterite, on the other hand, is mixed with gravel (in the bottom third of the substrate). I have in two of my tanks a thin layer of gravel on the bottom, below the Eco Complete. I did this when I equipped the tank with a new substrate (went from Gravel to Eco) to maintain some bio filtration. Within the last year I began to have some gravel on top of the Eco, based on constant messing with the plants.

Just thought you may wanna know this,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Little_fish!

Ok, so no gravel right! That will let me buy more substrate of either eco or flourite. Laterite can be mixed in along with the planting substrate?!? Cool.......

Thanx again!

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Hold on ,

Now, what do you exactly mean with "Laterite can be mixed in along with the planting substrate"? That would apply only to otherwise inert substrates, like gravel. Eco Complete and Flourite are in themselves nutrient enriched substrates and would not appreciate the extra dosage of Laterite (which, btw, is an iron based entity). That would be overkill with - at best - no positive outcome.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I've had the opportunity to use flourite in my ten gallon tank. I no longer have flourite in my ten gallon tank. There is a reason for this.

If you want cloudy water whenever you touch the gravel (no matter how much rinsing you do before adding it to the tank), choose flourite. The resulting cloud of dust settles on everything, looking like it just snowed red snow (I had the red flourite, not the black/gray) all over plants and decor.

Now, don't get me wrong, my plants LOVED flourite. I had crypts taking over my tank and aponogetons growing so big I had to transplant them to another tank. My java fern gained leaves by the handful.

Even when I replaced most of the flourite with gravel, the small pockets of flourite I left around the heavier root-feeders still caused a mess.

I'm sure there's a way to deal with flourite, but I couldn't stand not being able to see my fish every time I did a water change or moved plants around. I rinsed and rinsed and rinsed when I first got it, but still had this problem.

I'm actually in the same boat you are... trying to figure out what substrate to put in a new tank, so I'm interested in what others have to say. My previous thread on the subject can be found here.

~Meow. Thus spoke the cat.~

hi:

I have pure flourite in my smallest tank and there are absolutely no dust particles after the rinsing left. Admittedly, it was a challenge to get rid of it! The only down side to me is that the surface of the individual particles is not very smooth and probably not so great for bottom dwellers like cories. The tint is very red, think of wet terracotta. Because of said bottom dwellers I mixed it with a little bit of fine gravel which works just fine. The plants grow nicely and I do not have to provide them even after more than a year with substrate nourishment. (Unlike my big thank for which I used laterite)

Little_Fish,

Okay, now i understand what you mean. You can mix flourite with gravel in a whole different layer, right? Or is this overkill, like you mentioned? In anycase, i am definately adding laterite to the 20 gallon immediately! Do you know how to put it in, after youe got the tank setup? Im just thinking of pouring it in, then mixing it up. I of course will be taking the fish out while i do this. Now, will a cycle be undertaken, now that the bacteria colonies are gone? If so, is it worth it for the plants?


Kitten,

If what youre saying is true, which i dont doubt it is, then i wont even think about using flourite. Ive heard a LOT of the same complaints before. Now i am deciding to use Eco-Complete, with a small layer of gravel on the bottom. Now, why shouldnt i use a UGF with the enriched substates? I heard someone say this, and i am now quite confused.


Catdancer,

How much did you rinse the flourite? I cant rinse anything too much for now, because the water is sparce now in FL. Dunno why..........

To All-

Will loaches such as dojo or kuhli mess up the substrate and the plants? I heard that they bury themselves...

My decision-

In order of layers(Bottom to top)

-----SUBSTRATE
-2x 5lb(10kg) bags of Gravel
-1x 25lb(50kg) bag of Flourite
-2x 25lb(~50kg) bags of Eco-Complete
-----PLANT STOCKING
-2-3x Java Fern
-3-4x Anubias
-2-3x Crypts
-1-2x Amazon Sword
-3-4x Vallisneria american
-1-2x Onion Plants
-2-3x Banana Plants (Nymphoides aquatica)
-5-6x Aponogeton Hybrid ulvaceus and crispus
-2-3x Wisteria
-----FISH STOCKING
-8x Tiger barbs and their different Morphs
-3x Swordtails, 1m 2f
-4x Platies
-1x 3-Spot Gourami*
-1x Paradise fish*
-6x Ghost Shrimp
-2x Kribenses
-----EQUIPMENT
-1x Aquaclear HOB filter. I find it has way more media storage than any other brand of HOB filter.
-1x 200 watt Heater, Steath Model.

The tank will have A hiding spot of DW, Fake Caves, Rocky Escapes, and Large, broad leaved plants. It will be using a coralife fixture* or just the regular fixture for the lighting.

*=Maybe

Please leave any comments!

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I used a fine mesh strainer to rinse the flourite and rinsed and rinsed a single bag for the better part of an hour. I put it into the tank and slowly started to add water. The water was solid red-brown when I was finished, even though I poured the water slowly onto a plate. I did a gravel vac to remove all the water from the tank and replaced all the water slowly. The resulting tank wasn't as completely opaque-watered as the first attempt, but it was still quite cloudy.

Oh... and my cories barbels became quite eroded after living on this gravel for a while. The edges are quite sharp, and whether or not that was the reason for the barbels, I'm not sure; they recovered nicely when moved to another tank with smooth gravel.

As for UGFs, they're not appropriate for plants in general. I've heard of people using reverse flow UGFs, but I'd think the roots would get entwined in the UGF plates in any case. Honestly, I've never run an undergravel filter, and the last I can remember is my mom complaining about them when she kept fish a dozen years or so ago. I remember something happening to the filter (whether it stopped working or she got tired of it) and she just unconnected it, left the plate in place and got a HOB filter.

Far as I can gather, the UGF would pull the nutrients away from the plant roots. Also, from what I know, eco-complete has a wide range of particle sizes, from gravel down to nearly sand-fine. I don't think that would be conducive to keeping the UGF unclogged.

~Meow. Thus spoke the cat.~

I agree about the Flourite being messy. I had it mixed with gravel in my 55g when I first set it up and it made a mess every time the substrate was moved. Clouded up the tank like something crazy and I even rinsed it over and over and over in the beginning. Its a great substrate, but I won't use it ever again.

Eco Complete is awesome IME. You don't rinse it and if you use it, use it by itself. You don't have to mix anything with it. Definitely don't use Flourite and Eco together....it won't look good IMO. I would use either or....as each of them is a good plant substrate by itself.

Kitten has it right about the UGFs....plant roots usually get tangled up in the plates and with plants like Crypts that have huge root systems....I would toss the UGF out and get a canister or HOB filter.

I've also heard that Dojo and Kuhli loaches like to bury themselves in the substrate. Alot of people keep them in planted tanks, so they must not do too much damage. I'd give them a smallish substrate though, like Eco Complete to bury in. Most of the grain size is like a large grain sand. I have also found Fluorite to be sharp with cories....so I don't think it would be a good substrate for burying loaches. Also, with burying fish, your layers will be messed up.

Is the tank new or do you already have those fish? Good luck keeping shrimp with Kribs and Tiger Barbs. They probably won't last long....especially small Ghost shrimp. Your stocking list seems a bit overstocked IMO. I'd go with either the Paradise or the Gourami and either the Platies or the Swords. Hex tanks don't have as much surface area as rectangular tanks, so you should cut your list down a bit IMO....especially with the Barbs that can reach 3 inches each.

An Amazon sword will take over that tank in a matter of time...

*Kristin*

Thanks Kitten and Girliegirl,

This is still a new tank in planning, and i do not have any of the fish except three TBs and the swordtails and gouramis.

Ok, so no sword. THanks to all! ANy more advice?

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i saw goby asked about how to put laterite in after the tank has been set up. i dont know if this was answered (didnt read everything, kinda just skimmed through) i was wondering about the same thing.
oh one more thing, is there any difference between flourite red, grey and original other than just the color

*click *flash *click "whered he go???"

I've looked at the package of laterite before, but never actually used it. As I recall, it just says to mix it in with the gravel. I'm not sure if it requires rinsing, though I assume so.

I would remove fish and all decor, then gently mix in the laterite into the gravel. No matter what you do, you're going to have a mess (whether it be just stirring up the detritus in the gravel or if the laterite itself is a mess).

I'd be interested to know how it works out if you go that route, though.

~Meow. Thus spoke the cat.~

sodaaddict84 asks about adding Laterite to a tank that is already set up, GobyFan2007 asked about Flourite. I am confused

Anyway, here is my input (some more some less) to both:

- I never added Flourite to any tank, so I know little about it. I only can say that, if someone does not like the fact that it will ultimately show both substrates mixed at the surface (from planting etc.), it may not be a good idea to mix it.
- Laterite: I have used it in the past. There are actually different brands that supposedly require different setups. One should be rinsed, the other one not, one in the bottom 3rd, the other throughout the substrate. I used the one that was recommended as the most efficient Laterite ("First layer Pure Laterite" from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals) and that one needs to be rinsed and is added in the bottom 3rd of the substrate only (mixed with the gravel there). Under no condition would I recommend to add this to a tank that already has water in it. I believe that the amount of released iron etc. into the water column is almost guaranteed to create a major imbalance.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Quite a bit (I think I counted 15 water changes until the water remained clear). but I think you can get away with less if you are willing to tolerate some initial clouding - it is not harmful at all and a good filter will take care of it. This substrate is awesome and I seriously regret that I did not use it in my other tanks. Lat week I put some stem plants into the small tank and one of the bigger ones that has a layer of Sera floredepot with gravel on top. Well, the plants in the small tank are almost twice as high and remember, there is no need to add substrate fertilizer ever after!

Hi,
Initially, Laterite an ancient iron rich clay, was designed
to be laid on the bottom glass of a tank. It should be a
layer about an inch and a half to two inches thick and then
covered with a cap layer of regular aquarium gravel also
an inch and a half thick. This layering brought the total
substrate thickness to between 3 and 4 inches which is
the recommended thickness for most of the aquatic plants
that we keep.

However, a inch and a half layer of Laterite in many tanks,
especially our larger tanks, can be very expensive. So,
folks experimented with "mixes" of laterite and gravel.
"They" decided that a 50/50 mix of laterite and gravel
seemed to give them the same results as a full layer and
so now the directions suggest "mixing."

As with any "layered" substrate, the results are still the
same. The plants are anchored (planted) in the upper,
gravel layer, and grow down into the clay or mixed layer
where they spread like the dickens and the plant thrives.
When you uproot the plant, or vacuum too rigorously,
you bring the clay particles up into the water column and
cloud the water. Depending upon how much you disturb the
cap layer and how much clay you bring into the water
column, it can take weeks, even months to get crystal clear
water again. Unless one uses a diatom filter, then it
takes only an hour or so.

After Laterite, came Flourite. It is designed to be used
as "THE" substrate and thus, needs no cap layer. However,
it is still the same ancient clay, but in this case it was
fractionated (baked to a rock like consistency and
then ground into aquarium gravel size) and it still
causes the same cloudiness as laterite.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

should i empty the tanks out and start over then? or would root tabs be sufficient?

*click *flash *click "whered he go???"

Hi,
Personally, I'd leave them alone and continue on as you
are. Start saving, as many of these "plant friendly"
substrates can be expensive, especially so when filling
a large tank.

Sooner or later, you will be overhauling a tank and at
that time, you could make the change, assuming it will
be a heavily planted tank. If you are only going to have
a few plants, there is no sense in using the newer
substrates, the sticks, plant tablets, and plant balls
would work fine for them.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--