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Garry,

That is a very nice aquarium and one that most would love to have adorn their homes. Upon reviewing the tank and one reason I asked for the specs is to see what you were currently doing planted-wise. Your 60G basically has a large fish load, with medium lighting and little ferts till now. The reason it works in terms of growing plants and algae is just for those reasons. The high fish load is providing the plants with macros, while the medium light is keeping algae away, but giving the low-light level plants enough to grow.

If I had your two tanks this is what I would do. And again it's just my opinion and you of course will do what makes you happy and everyone here I'm sure will help you just the same. I would switch tanks. What I mean by that is put your existing plants and fish in the 240g and use medium lighting. Maybe increase your schools some, etc.

In the 60g I would convert this one to your high light tank with all the bells and whistles.

The main reason is the plants and for algae control. If you keep the lighting moderate on the 240g it will be very difficult to grow plants like glosso or for that matter any foreground/carpet type plant. If you increase the light to try and do this you will probably have explosive algae growth based on the size of those fish and the food and waste they will produce. Also the fish you list will probably destroy many of the plants you wish to grow. In addition, it will be very difficult to trim the foreground without a few Oompa Loompa doning scuba gear.

It sounds like the 60g has the ability to add more light and will be easier to grow the plants you want with a nice large school of tetras, shrimp and otos for algae control. It will also be must easier to get a handle on a high-light tank in terms of trimming, fert adjustments, etc.

Anyway just thought I'd throw it out there, nothing is impossible and you could certainly attempt it in the larger tank, but in an effort to minimize frustration along the lines of with LF was saying I think this would work better to that end.

My Scapes

Ly , Don't worry mate , Its my fault for not saying that I was transferring from my other tank . Its cool I appreciate any input and you weren't the first to warn me off Black Sharks and Tigers. Trust you will keep commenting as every opinion is a chance to learn

Ingo , Thanks for being kind about the fish load.

Interesting point on the wpg . Ive found in my admittedly short time of experimenting with these things ( Ferts & fish loads included ) that EI or any method is a means to an end .

The end being an attractive tank which one can continually tinker with to improve .

With more information and knowledge comes the ability to improvise further and to learn more from personal experience which I think enhances the the whole experience of fish keeping .

What excites me most about the hobby today is being able to converse and learn from other people like yourself but then to adapt that to your own world .

Every setback is a chance to learn and people who don't make mistakes don't learn .Whew enough philosophy for one day .

The plan for this week is to get the plants and new lights about Wed and hopefully early enough in the day to get the planting done and get the tank filled.

Then I will probably let the tank sit & stabilise for a few days with a fert regime in place before I add my 4 Kissers and the sponge from my filter in the 60g to kick start the cycle .

Pictures by the end of the week .

Thanks
Garry

Thanks for being kind about the fish load

That's not what I meant, I simply meant not to comment on it. My FP name of LITTLE_FISH does not only mean that I am no big fish in this hobby, it also indicates my preference for fish size in my tanks

Whew enough philosophy for one day

That was a good reflection on the approach, remember this entry at moments of frustration (there always will be some of these).

... and the sponge from my filter in the 60g to kick start the cycle

Good idea! I don't know how you started the 60G, but just a reminder: well planted tanks don't really have a cycle, so don't be surprised if you should not see the common cycle readings on your test kits. Most of the time, you will not get any readings at all, except the Nitrates that your add as ferts. The Ammonia will be sucked up by the plants first. Any cycle that may occur should be so minor that it is almost unmeasurable. This is, if you have a well planted tank with sufficient nutrient uptake.

Looking forward to the next pictures and updates,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Tetratech, Wow what can I say . That ceratinly is a different approach and something I haven't thought about in that way

I really appreciate your thoughts and the attempts to make my efforts easier and less frustating . You are much more experienced in the planted world than me and I really should do it that way .

But ( you knew there was going to be a but ) I really want to see what I can do with the big tank . I want to have a go at some things that may not work . We'll see how it goes and I reserve you the right to say I told you so if it all goes pear shaped in the future

On the subject of the 60g thanks for you nice comments . I am going to go back to scratch and redesign it after Ive got the big one up and running . I really want to go with an elegant simple design and Ill probably take your advice and go hi tech in this tank which will give me a fallback for some of the plants that may not work in the big tank .Ill start a log on it as well.

Thanks for your insightfull comments and while I may not take them all exactly as read , Im very much better armed for having heard them .

Please keep them coming over the next few months as both tanks develop .
Garry

My FP name of LITTLE_FISH does not only mean that I am no big fish in this hobby, it also indicates my preference for fish size in my tanks

Ingo , yes I knew that , but don't underestimate you influence on people like me !!!!

Any cycle that may occur should be so minor that it is almost unmeasurable. This is, if you have a well planted tank with sufficient nutrient uptake.

Yes thats what Im hoping for . I didnt work for me when I started the 60g but I made a lot of mistakes which I wont make this time thanks to all the sage advice

Oh by the way , I have had the driftwood soaking for a couple of days and you'll be happy to know that it does'nt appear to be a floater but boy has it leached some tannins I read somewhere that you should boil the stuff .Is that just to get rid of any critters or should I do that to help get rid of the tannins .
I think I remember reading that you had some issues with this , what would you do ?
Garry

Hi folks , Just a quick update.

The plants & extra lights arrived late today As usual not everything I ordered was supplied
No Glosso or Rotala which based on your advice may not be all that bad

However no Stargrass or Pearl Grass , so looks like Im going to have to find some fast growers quickly .
Quess I'll be doing the rounds of the LFS's in town tomorrow looking for Water Sprite / Wisteria /Giant Hygro.

Also recieved some suprises in the form of Certopteris Pteroides which I can't find out much about .
Anybody got any idea about how large etc . ???
Got another suprise in a plant that wasn't on their list, could be the Rotala but I'm not sure . Its the red & green Leaf on the top right of the photo .
Anyone ID it ? I'll get a better photo tomorrow .

Anyway all plants recieved seem to be in good shape and have floated them for the night ( Photo Attached ) .

Big day tomorrow , should be fun
Garry

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Garry,

First off: Certopteris Pteroides is really called Ceratopteris pteroides. Google this name and you will find quite a bit of info. Upfront, it is a floating plant for the surface.

The red plant in your picture does not look like Rotala to me, seems to be maybe some form of Ludwigia, like broad leaf. I just received a few weeks ago a plant named obelia cardinalis 'Small Form'. That plant had been grown emersed and has in that state red undersides and green tops with a similar leaf shape. Given the size of your leaves, it may be obelia cardinalis, but that is just a wild guess.

Otherwise: Happy Planting

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Update of the Planting of the tank .

Firstly a shot of the tank with a new Background . Unfortunatley the LFS was unable to get one the correct size so they gave me a smaller one to tide me over until the correct one comes in . Better than the cartoon I think

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Next the plants laid out ready to start.

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The Amazon Swords & the mystery freebie which turned out to be Purple Waffle , which is not even an aquarium plant so that went into the bin

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A shot of the setup ready to start adding water and begin planting

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The Driftwood after attaching the Anubia's & some Java Fern

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Now some shots of the tank after completion of planting and filling . Firstly the complete tank

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The right side

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The left Side

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The "River"

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A few close ups of the Plants in the tank . Firstly the Anubias Barteri on the left with the Ludwigia ( which was not the variety I ordered by the way

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The Hairgrass & Chain Sword

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The brown Crypts near the base of the Driftwood

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The Driftwood from slightly above

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A shot from the end of the tank

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Lastly a shot under low light.

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So a few issues I will need to address .
1. No Red plants supplied and a quick run round the LFS's on Sat saw none with any stock . The Scape needs some I think in the jungle on the right and perhaps around the Driftwood .
2. Not enough fast growers only managed to pick up some Water Sprite Will try again tomorrow ). I want to make the jungle denser to reinforce the wild look of that side. Plus I need more nutrient guzzlers .
3. Need to get someting to cover up the Sponge filter in the middle . Its placed there for water flow reasons and I'm reluctant to move it .? Will have to see if I can find some thing that suits

The whole planting process took about 9 hours all up. The fert regime that I've worked out is as follows.
Excel 25ml and Flourish 20ml 3 times a week Nitrogen 15ml , Pottasium 35ml & Phosphate 2 times a week . I don't have the Phosphate yet, hasn't arrived . However I used Seachems PH7 which is phospate based so I hope that holds the plants until the Phosphate arrives hopefully this week .

The fert regime is worked out roughly on the Seachem instructions . I would appreciate any input into if I should increase / decrease any of the above .?

Also I would appreciate any thoughts on the scape and any ways it could be improved . The concept was to have a wild area and an ordered area on each side of the river . The non delivery of certain plants has mucked that up a bit and I will have to add to it as I can .

Any thoughts at all will be greatly appreciated .

Thanks
Garry

Better than the cartoon I think

Garry - anything looks better than the cartoon
Much better, btw

On to the planting log:

When I saw the shot where you laid out the plants I thought "that's not gonna be remotely enough". Either I was fooled by the picture, or you actually had more plants than displayed, the overall planting seems to be so much more.

As much as I know, the Purple Waffle would have stayed ok submersed for a while (but I don't know how long a while is) and started to die off. I think it is better that you disposed of it, otherwise you may have worked your scape around it with eventually having a hole right there (and bad water as of die offs).

The latter shot is pretty cool, makes one understand the size of that tank so much better. I think though we would have needed a shot of you on the latter, bending over into the tank with 3 feet long tweezers during planting

How did the fixing of the anubias and fern on the wood work out? Was it easy? Sometimes I get lucky and it goes without a hitch, other times I have to try it a few times before all are in the position where I want them, cursing included!

How long did the planting and filling take? All seems to be nicely in place and I like the density on the right side in particular.

The Hairgrass & Chain Sword look like they have been grown emersed, I would expect a rather strong die off of the chain sword leaves in the initial settle down phase. Submersed tenellus doesn't have the spoon shaped leaves. I hope you made sure that the rhizome of the barteri is not touching the substrate (or even worse, partially or fully buried) as it would rot away. I can't really tell by the picture.

River and placement of driftwood look nice. I would assume that over time, as the plants start to grow some more, you may want to add more wood. That wood should be of the same type than the existing one, so you can start now looking for it (if you haven't done so already).

Low light shot is very nice as well. Does that mean that your tank will have this light for a few hours per day? If so, then the plants in the right front seem to be in the dark, is that only because of the camera adjustment?

One last thing: Don't tell me that the bubbles that come up there is air bublles, or is it? I assumed the hoses are for CO2, not air. If air, then - what is it good for? Come to think of it, you mentioned that you use Excel for now, so it must be air . Well, I hope you get over that phase once you inject CO2 as it is counter-productive. But in the meantime, if you really wish to keep it, was there no other way of feeding in the tubing? Like coming in from the left and right back corner and then running it just above the substrate to where you want it?

Enough for now, overall an excellent job in planting this baby, my back is hurting just from looking at the pictures,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ah Garry,

It took me so long to write my input that I didn't even see your last entry. Probably you will have responded by the time I post this one

Anyway, to your plan:

1. No Red plants supplied and a quick run round the LFS's on Sat saw none with any stock .

And who cares? Take your time with plants that you want to have in the long run. Don't fall into the trap that you "need" to have a beautiful tank right now. Take your time. Trust me, I know what I am talking about

2. Not enough fast growers only managed to pick up some Water Sprite

There you go, that is what you are after right now. Focus on these types for the time being.

3. Need to get someting to cover up the Sponge filter in the middle . Its placed there for water flow reasons

I would say that a power head on both (or either) side of the tank should provide all the flow you need. They come in various sizes (gph) and you should find the one(s) that is/are just right for you.

The fert regime that I've worked out is as follows...

- Excel 25ml and Flourish 20ml 3 times a week --> What are you going for? Something like the Estimative Index or a rather lean fertilizer regiment? Excel seems in any case way too low. If I am not mistaken, then even my large tank needs at least that amount, and that is 125G. Also, I add 3x30ml of my micros 3 times a week.
- Nitrogen 15ml , Pottasium 35ml & Phosphate 2 times a week . --> Garry, ml is the same than ppm, right? I would up to 3x per week, maybe starting off with 10ppm of N, 10ppm of K, and 1ppm of P, later you can modify this depending on your tank specific uptakes.
- And of course, all my values mean 50% water changes weekly

However I used Seachems PH7 ...

I hope you know that such products throw off all measurement kits. Refresh my mind, why do you do that?

The concept was to have a wild area and an ordered area on each side of the river

- Not so good, as one day I will see an entry in your log somewhat like this: "My tank seems to have no cohersion (is that the right word? ), it looks like two separate tanks". I think, in particular because you have a river separating the sides, the styles and even overall used plants should not be different on each side. Do you know what I mean?

K, that's it,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The tank looks really interesting and it seems to have potential. The left side with the terrace looks almost like an asian farm so neat and orginized. Also, the fish will enjoy the jungly side for hiding.
The thing is that I agree with little fish. Eventually it won't look that good when they grow in completely different on different sides. But maybe you will like having the tank that way its up to you.

-Vincent

I think though we would have needed a shot of you on the latter, bending over into the tank with 3 feet long tweezers during planting

I don't think so Don't want anyone to throw up

How did the fixing of the anubias and fern on the wood work out? Was it easy?

I started out that way until I tried to put it in the tank and then it all fell over . I soon learned that nylon cotton does not hold knots very well . Managed to get most to hold eventually . Got a little frustrated at times

How long did the planting and filling take?

Took about 9 hours all up

The Hairgrass & Chain Sword look like they have been grown emersed

Well we will see , BTW the plant supplier called the Chain Sword " Broad Leaf " . Maybe a con

Low light shot is very nice as well

Thanks for thatI wanted to get a shot without the river flaring because of lights , so yes its just a camera thing .
The Airstone thing is just me I'm old fashioned I love the look I understand the CO2 thing . Can always turn off later.

Enough for now, overall an excellent job in planting this baby, my back is hurting just from looking at the pictures

Thank you for that , and yes I was very tired after but very satisfied . That only lasted 1 day however

Thanks Ingo for you interest and nice comments
Garry

Ingo , The Fert regime is not EI thats for sure . I'm unable to do 50 % water changes every week due to water restrictions .
So I'm trying to keep the Ferts a little more conserative compared to what you use . Hopefully there won't be any nutrient shortages because of this?
I do 25 % water change a week btw. I realise that this will effect growth and I'll need to manage that and the possibility of Algae getting a hold .

We will see as I go along how well I can manage this.

Garry, ml is the same than ppm, right

Not sure on this one ???? Seachems Ferts are all liquid and the ml I refer to is the liquid amount recommended by Seachem ???
As I said will have to see how I go .

Refresh my mind, why do you do that?

Well this comes from my experience of not being able to stabilse PH . I have found over the last year or so that this product gives me a very stable buffering of my PH . I understand that this will throw off KH readings and therefore the ability to work out CO2 numbers from the relationship between KH & PH . But I'm prepared to put up with that to have a stable system. From my reaserch it should not throw off the other measurements like Nitrates etc ????? Not 100% sure on that, but on my other tank it seems to work alright .

Not so good, as one day I will see an entry in your log somewhat like this: "My tank seems to have no cohersion (is that the right word? ), it looks like two separate tanks".

Well actually the concept I had in mind was exactly that because of the size of the tank . I pretty pleased at how the concept has turned out. I will add a little more wildness to the ordered side as I get my hands on some more plants . We will see how it develops over the next few months .
Like you I find it hard to keep my hands out of the tank
Well thanks again for your interest and comments . I learn something every time
Garry

Vincent , you have picked the concept exactly . The farm look came up as I had envisaged .
I do like it , but as Ingo pointed out it may not last forever
Thanks for your comments and thoughts .
Garry

Garry,

Look at you, already one gold star - was that there already yesterday in the morning (US time)?

Anyway, I think you get my point about two distinct tanks in one, but I couldn't come up with the right word describing my thoughts until now: A tank should be homogeneous. Nature does not create two distinct habitats right next to each other, only man does.

And, if you don't mind, I would like to know more about your issues establishing a stable ph. Not that I have an answer for you, but I would learn from it.

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi Countryfish

I've been away for a bit & come home to find a new log . I'm looking forward to seeing the progress of this tank.

I have ordered a dark blue one and it might be here in a week or so

The reverse of the blue background will be black. Blue will be nice, but IMO, black will be better. To my eye, black gives a real depth & gives me the impression of dark caves extending back forever (well, to me anyway). Everyone is giving you good advice and there's nothing really for me to add, other than sit back, watch the growth & enjoy. I agree with the suggestion to get C02 though. There is nothing to worry about in jumping in too fast. It is much easier than remembering to add excel daily. If ever you're interested, I can let you know the cheapest I found it - but as you are in QLD & have bought a PC, which aren't that easy to find in AUS (at least not NSW), you may have found my source already. Did you buy on-line from Ben?

Your tank is 24" tall - I know that this isn't the favourite height of some posters here, but that's the height of my new tank - another reason why I'm keen to watch your work here. I am still several weeks away from setting it up, so I will watch the progression of yours with great interest. I think I will have a sandy beach sith dark gravel to each side, but I don't have a clear picture in mind yet & I'm limited by some of my hardscrape which must transfer across from the old tank. It seems that tetratech has inspired a few of us with this 2 substrate look.

I'm going away again for a few days & be sure to see what you're up to when I get back. It's already looking very nice.

Have fun

Cheers
TW

Ingo , Yes I get the point about the scape Lets see how it progresses
I just realised I could do the quiz properly as I have got to 50 posts. So I don't think it was there when you posted last .

And, if you don't mind, I would like to know more about your issues establishing a stable ph. Not that I have an answer for you, but I would learn from it.

Well the PH story , lets see when I first got back into fish keeping about 18 mths ago , I was amazed with all the new knowledge and a little overwhelmed and so I believed most of what I was told by my LFS . Especially about PH being critical to fish survival and health . But typically I was given a very abridged version of things and became very frustrated when for reasons unknown to me I kept having PH crashes from around 7 to as low as 5 in a week . And yes I did lose some fish which just frustrated me even more . Especially when the stuff the LFS gave me (PH Down & PH Up) seemed not to give me any long term stability .
I started to look around for other products that might do a better job and found the Seachem site . So after some searching in Brisbane I found Neutral 7 and started to use it . I wouldn't say that my PH crashes went away over night but they certainly became much less in value so that I was only having about 6.9 to 6.0 initially . After a couple of months of adding to my water change water only ( never did the whole tank ) lo and behold I no longer had much movement in PH at all .I always measure at the same time of day btw as I understand that PH varies at different times in the day . My range now is about 6.9 - 6.8 . That was about 6mts ago and its been steady since .
Now of course I realise after much more research on many different sites what I've done and also what the problem with my water is . Low KH which means the water has little buffering capacity coupled with a high fish load = PH crashes . Neutral 7 uses Phosphate buffers which make up for the lack of KH .

Now you might say , now you know the reasons for the PH crashes why don't you just increase your KH and dispense with the artifical buffers . The answer to that is simple , it works and I'm sick of loosing my little buddies . I have now got a very stable system , no MFD and happy healthy fishies . I don't really want to muck that up experimenting and go back to creating massive change in their environment. I like most others have little faith in test kits although I have them and use them every week , I just don't entirely rely on them . I rely more on observation to tell me if I've got it right .
There are many other things I've learned ( mainly from FP) about Filter's, Bacteria , Gravel Vacs etc that I'm sure have helped in gaining stability in the tank as well as probably just the tank settling down.

Interestingly not long after starting to use Neutral 7 I started to get some BBA . Not much because I only had low light. Didn't worry me too much but when I started to experiment with ferts & lights I got a lot more . Maybe lots of Phospates in the system ??? Who knows , but I had a major cleanup and got the fert regime of all Macros & Micros going and so far the algae seems not to have returned ( still no Phospate other than Neutral 7 though).

Anyway hope that gives you an idea of why I use the product . I don't chase a number on PH just stability .

Garry

Yeeeeaaaahhhh Garry,

I don't know

I sure see why you use it, at least your explanation makes perfect sense from a logical perspective ("don't fix it if it ain't broken".

But I am not so sure about the overall goodness of Up and Down and Neutral products. Phosphate based you say, right? So, what is your phosphate ppm in the tank then right now? Oh, that's right, the test kits are off now!!!

Plant uptake of nutrients depends on a balance between the latter. How high will you have to dose K and N in order to match your P? Oh yeah, again you cannot tell, as the kit is off!!!

What else is in that Neutral 7? Phosphates do nothing with regards to KH, it is carbonate hardness, not phosphate based. So maybe it buffers with its other ingredients, or maybe it just buffers the GH, or both, but because of what stuff in it?

I know people with almost no KH and GH (although attempts are made to buffer the latter with calcium), injecting enough CO2 to have strong plant growth (with ferts and high lights), but still they do not crash. Real crashes are rare and you are the first person I know (not that I know too many people) that speak of having had a crash.

But again, I see your point,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi Robyn , nice to hear from you .

If ever you're interested, I can let you know the cheapest I found it - but as you are in QLD & have bought a PC, which aren't that easy to find in AUS (at least not NSW), you may have found my source already. Did you buy on-line from Ben?

A PC ? not sure what that is ? I have not bought much online and have only used Aquarium Suplies Australia so far . So I would be interested to know of any reasonable place to purchase supplies as I get a little frustrated with the service here in the country.

Your tank is 24" tall

Actually its 32 in tall and yes Tetratech has a lot to answer for ( in a good way )

Thanks again for your nice comments and encouragement and I look forward to lots more .
Garry

Ingo , yep agree with everthing you say and your right could be for lots of reasons . I do use my test kits just not sure I can trust them .
They report KH has gone from 3 to 7 not sure that is right because all my research says these type of buffers throw the tests off .
GH of 9 has remained stable however .
One interesting thing that has happened since I started ferts is my Nitrate has dropped from 40ppm to 10ppm , which suggests to me that the plants have started using the Nitrate since I have started using all Macros & Micros .
All this of course is in the 60g which is a very stable tank in which the plants are really starting to grow
Thanks again Ingo for your interest and support .

Anyway back to the 240g , and Ive been out scouting for new plants . I found some more Water sprite and a couple of others . One called a Spath which I have no idea on but I liked the look. The other one is also a mystery but I was told it grows fairly fast . Anyway I like the result .
The first photo is of the tank before the new plants .

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Now a shot of the full tank after adding the new plants

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A closer shot of the right side jungle

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A shot of the Driftwood and River

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The Left side .

I think the mass on the jungle side is now what I envisaged with the river being more closed in .
The added plants behind the driftwood gives more height to that area .
I'm pretty happy with the overall effect at this stage of the tanks development .

If anyone can ID the plant behind the driftwood I'd be most grateful .
Thanks
Garry

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Garry,

Looking good, I like the fact that you added more plants, although I don't know what the plant behind the driftwood is, sorry about that.

One of my constant shortcomings is that I forget to write down the name of a plant that I acquire for my tanks, may it be from the LFS or through "buddies". Later on then do I discover that the plant is not aquatic, or grows enormous, or has special needs (as in high N, for example, or high light). Granted, I am getting better at it, but I advise you to try from the beginning to take a pen with you when you go to the LFS to buy stuff, and if it is not labeled then ask the sales guy for the name. More often than not they only have a common name, but most of the time that name gives some clue to the real name, like "Funky Ludwigia" - at least you know to look at ludwigias in specific, that limits the search for an ID to maybe 50 plants. On the other hand, even LFSs sometimes have no clue what they are selling (in particular if the plant guy - how orders - is out that day) and name it whatever, then you are where you are right now with that plant in your tank.

Anyway, rambling is over now

About the KH and GH - if you have time (or maybe you did this already), you could go and test your tab water for GH, KH, and ph by putting it in a bucket. Do 2 tests, one right after you added the water and one 24h later, just let the bucket sit in the meantime. I would be curious what these values are.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Garry,

Looking really good I would love to see how it looks with all the hair grass grown in. All I can tell you is that you are doing a great job and the plants look great.

Hey, lookin' good Garry. Your plant behind the DW is in fact Spath. Spathiphyllum wallisii to be specific. Can get about 20in high, and very large. Undemanding, and wait for it, not a true aquarium plant. However, I guess it can live submersed for many months or sometimes years. Give it a shot I guess.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Very nice effort, especially for such a big tank.

If your looking for a natural, somewhat wild look the rocks lining the river don't look natural. They are two similiar to each in size and it looks like they are standing up. I would try to lay them down and have different size rocks with some jutting into the river from the edge.

The wood with the cut off branch, is that real driftwood. Either way it doesn't look natural I would remove it or find another piece. The other larger piece over the river looks really nice.

I must have missed something with the bubbles, cause I don't get it. Not only are the bubbles counterproductive (as LF said) to planted aquaria, but it looks unnatural and you have the tubing to boot. I would also remove the powerhead in the middle and move the double-headed return more to the middle if possible. I'm sure you'll have plenty of flow with that monster fluval. Flow is extremely overrated in planted aquaria.

My Scapes

Hey folks, thanks for all the nice compliments , really appreciated .

Ingo , I have tested my tap water before but didn't do the 24hr thing which is interesting .
I'm redoing it as we speak and I'll let you know the results .
And yes I should carry a pen as my memory is getting worse and worse.

Ryan , thanks for that . I just realised you changed your name , was trying to work out who it was ?

Matty , I should have known got sucked in again by someone who should know better Aw well its my own fault, too trusting by half
I got to find a decent supplier of plants , someone who knows their stuff . Any Aussies out there know someone ?
Thanks Matty for the ID .


Tetra , thank you , your comments are always insightfull ,now that I look at the river I agree and will now be redoing with some new rocks .
Thanks for the input.

You read my mind though I don't like that bit of driftwood either.
It's all from the same piece , and the bottom piece supports the top bit .
The idea was to perhaps add a more brancey ( is that a word ) bit later on as the tank grows in .
I still think the scape lacks height so hopefully that piece will be a base that won't be seen much .
Driftwood is very hard to come by here and that was the best I could find, but I will keep looking .

I know you guys don't get the airstone thing which is fair enough but I am suprised at your flow comment.
Could you please enlarge on that thought?

Enough for now , thanks again for all the help and suggestions . All are greatly appreciated .
Garry

Could you please enlarge on that thought?

Yeah tetratech, I am curious as to what you have to say there as well

I guess one thing that should be kept in mind is that flow does not equal filtration, right?
And flow should be everywhere (as otherwise = BGA and - no CO2 distribution), but doesn't have to be in force, right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yeah tetratech, I am curious as to what you have to say there as well

So let's see, what are you trying to accomplish with increased flow (scratches head)? Are you trying to remove solid particle matter at a quicker rate. Let's say the answer is yes? In most planted tanks especially big ones, most of the filtration is in the tank. Adding more biological media(more surface area) will certainly help depending upon your tanks load, feeding, etc, but this is not IMO dependent on flow, but more importantly an issue of media contact efficency and size.

Are you trying to distribute Co2? Is your co2 readings higher on the left size versus the right side of your tank. In my 72g (4 foot tank) I'm running about 70-80gph, so I'm only turning over my water once an hour. I see no difference in the plants on the left side near the spraybar and co2 diffusor and those on the right. They all grow and pearl the same.

Are you trying to distribute ferts evenly? Give me a break (See co2 above) How much flow do you need to move around dissolved gas and ferts?

Are you trying to prevent algae? Well I've seen algae grow in people's tanks right in the return outlet, spraybar, etc. Why are some nano tanks so pristine with no flow, no filter?







My Scapes

Garry, tank's looking good!

Just my two cents on the flow discussion - in some cases, water flow is as much for the fish' benefit as it is for the water column and plants. For example, rainbows (at least my aussie rainbows do) and most river loaches (yoyo, angelicus, skunk, sumo) prefer a good strong current as it replicates their natural environment.

Just my thought on the matter. During my experimenting with having my spraybar vertical in the tank, the rainbows and loaches would spend hours swimming in the flow from it, which was a completely different area of the tank than they normally stayed in. So for some fish species, a good flow is practical fishkeeping.

Listen! Do you smell that?

<-- not in reference to lysaer's entry which wasn't there when I initially types the response

well, I would have to read through both of our logs to find the section where in particular you and the Grand-Master, aka Bensaf, talk about an observation with regards to CO2. It went something like that:

"It seems that the plants have a better growth when the CO2 is reaching them in tiny bubbles rather than in dissolved form"

That was also around the time when Tom Barr came out with the idea of having the CO2 injected via a venturi valve thingy to reach exactly the above mentioned behavior.

As such, having enough flow in the tank to have all areas reached with CO2 bubbles should have some merit.

Of course this could be achieved with less overall flow (as in turnover through filters or masses of power heads just pushing stuff around) by placing power heads at strategic positions that make sure that otherwise neglected areas would be reached. Actually, that may be better anyway as your mentioning of flow and algae is something I brought up a while ago, in specific with relation to high flow = BBA.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

It seems that the plants have a better growth when the CO2 is reaching them in tiny bubbles rather than in dissolved form

LF,
Well that was so many moons ago, but are we talking pearling or plant growth/health. Planted tank gurus use various methods to get co2 into the water. (inline, diffusors, reactors) and guess what they all work. I personally had thought that the "mist" effect resulting in more pearling in my tank. Now does that mean one has to physically see those bubbles for the plant to still be benefiting from the "mist" effect. I could tell you even with my 70/80gph in my 72g I could see micro bubbles making it to the other side of the tank. What you bring up is not a matter of plant health, but a pearling effect. My rotala in my 5g is just as healthy looking as my rotala in my 72g, but it never pearls. Is that quote from Bensaf or me. If Bensaf, perhaps you could try tracking him down. He was last spotted in Dubai.

Lysaer,
No doubt some fish like flow, but the context of the discussion is flow and how it affects planted aquaria since this is the forum we are in. Regardless the fish you mentioned can hang out near the outflow of the Fluval and be knocked silly by flow if this is what they so desired.

EDIT:
Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying. You generally need flow, I'm saying I don't thing it's something you need to enhance if there is some flow. I'm looking at my 72g right now, and I could see the wisteria leaves on the far right side of the tank (opposite side from the spraybar) swaying in the current. So if there is enough current to do that don't you think there's enough current to move dissolved ferts and co2 around the tank?

My Scapes

but are we talking pearling or plant growth/health.

I don't want to drive Garry's log way off topic here, but we were talking about plant growth. We have established that pearling in itself is not an indicator for health, but an indicator for the water's oxygen saturation. But it seemed like the common experience was that small bubbles of CO2 resulted in stronger growth of the plants, as if they were to prefer that bubble size when sucking up the CO2.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

don't want to drive Garry's log way off topic here, but we were talking about plant growth. We have established that pearling in itself is not an indicator for health, but an indicator for the water's oxygen saturation. But it seemed like the common experience was that small bubbles of CO2 resulted in stronger growth of the plants, as if they were to prefer that bubble size when sucking up the CO2.

We'll not only are we driving the discussion off topic from Garry's log, but we aren't even really discussing the original post that lead us here. My post had to do with Garry's tank not needing the extra flow from the powerhead and I suggested moving the return more center. Your now assuming that even if Garry (who isn't currently even injecting co2) was injecting co2 it wouldn't get to the far end of the tank to maximize plant growth As I said there are gorgeous tanks that win contests, etc that have never been exposed to the mist method. Also the flow issue wasn't necessarily related to co2, but also to algae, cleaniness, etc.

My Scapes

Hey Garry,

Glad you stuffed it full of plants, looks like a good start.

Only thing I want to add is, I think you're going to see two very different growth patterns on the different sides of the river. Left side is going to be slower and sparse, the right side will get big fairly quickly. Just something to keep an eye out for when your thoughts turn to scaping and not just growing.

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Back in the saddle!

Well guys a fantastic discussion and don't worry Ingo , I love when you and Tetra swap points on any topic .
I think we all learn something . As usual it has made me review my thoughts on what the tank needs .
Haven't made a decision yet but it got me thinking .

Lysar & Nowher , thanks for contributing , both of you made good points and I'll certainly take them on board .

Sorry Ingo it took me 2 days to get back to testing my Tap water , life got in the road .
Don't know if that makes a diff , but here are the results .
Tap water
7.30pm 13/06/2007 PH 7.2 KH 5 GH 7
9.30pm 15/06/2007 PH 7.6 KH 6 GH 6

Strange results in my view , the pH was tested with a liquid and electronic test . Can't understand why it went up ?????? Kh and Gh look to me to be about the same based on the margin of error of these drip one at a time tests .

Any thoughts . ?

I will have an update on the tank in a little while as it has been a week and the cleanup crew has arrived . Yea
Just sorting thru some Pics .
Garry

Garry,

Makes sense to me, but I wouldn't mind if someone seconds my opinion or makes a counter factual entry.

"7.30pm 13/06/2007 PH 7.2 KH 5 GH 7
9.30pm 15/06/2007 PH 7.6 KH 6 GH 6"

At a ph of 7.2 and a KH of around 5, your tab would have had a CO2 of about 9.5ppm. I think the atmospheric CO2 concentration is somewhere around 4ppm. Over time, both media (sample water and air) have equalized the level of CO2, aka degassing. Checking on what your ph would be with about 4ppm, having a KH of around 5 to 6 (measuring weakness of simple test kits), leads to a level of ph of 7.6. All these values are derived from Chuck Gadd's excellent chart (scroll down on linked page).

Overall, this means that your water is still in the soft range, which is a good thing. To me, it also means that you neither have to care with extra measures for KH (as in "no need to add Baking Soda" ) or GH (as in "no need to add extra calcium via Seachem Equilibrium, for example" ).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Week 1 Update .

Firstly I spent the week after getting enough ? fast growing plants looking for a clean up crew for the tank with no success untill today .
More on that Later

The Plants for the most part seemed to settle reasonable well with some solid growth on the Water Sprite as well as it putting out lots of roots .
The Hairgrass has some dark and some light coloured parts ( could be new growth ) not sure will have to wait and see.
Chain Swords have seen the best growth with new leaves ,runners and a Baby
I have some concern about the Echin Amazonicus as they are showing some leaf degredation but also some new leaves appearing , again will have to see how they go ?
The Narrow Ludwiga has spread out nicely with some new growth at the tips .
The Ceratopteris pteroides has degraded badly but has some new growth .
The Crypts and Anubias have shown very little which is to be expected I suppose.
Over all reasonable first week , with the exception of the white water bacteria bloom which is making the taking of photos difficult and is always frustrating .

So onto the photo's , firstly the tank as it was after setup last friday evening .

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Next the Shot after the new plants were added on Tuesday .

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Now the Full tank as it stands after the first week .

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Now onto some detail shots of some of the plants . Firstly the Chain Sword and its Baby .

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