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*nodsnods* Yeah, that's why I wanted to make sure it was a good thing to buy before buying it. The price he gave me is for the whole thing - the lightstrip and a set of bulbs. He said that because they're T5s, there would be a larger spectrum of light that would help the plants.
So, would you recommend just doing the power compact lights?

______________
Cake or death?

Well dropping back to an old post of the same basic discussion back when I was still really green instead of just a medium green the only way to know is to actually get a light meter, and I may be doing so here really soon because I want to put this to bed. Math is my thing it is what I do, now I don't know as much as a lot of you in a lot of things but I still am trying to contribute something to the cause. This is my way hehe. About the actual mesurments per inch or what have you, the bulbs are rated at X lumes per square meter, but I have a few assumptions on why the addition of bulbs makes things grow better and it has to do with deflection, water as a medium reflects a percentage of light shot at it. I know this ammount but dont really remember it right now, however, I think that reflectors on bulbs are not the only thing we need to start looking at when dealing with light, we need to start dealing with loss of light, this is our real problem.

What I propose to do is chart light absorbtion and reflection per square inch or so. What I am thinking will be the problem is if your lights are not optimally placed that you will get bleeding problems because most hoods are black they absorb the light simply making them white or fully lined with aluminum or something like that may decrease the ammount of light lost due to reflection by redirecting it back at the water. Logically this is the only hypothisis that I can derive as to why your lighting didnt work if I have all the information correct.

The next thing I intend to work out is light pennetration at depths based on differnt water chemestry. I think the more soluble agents in the water the more light it will absorb on the way to the gravel. There isnt anything that can be done about this variable so knowing about it can allow for adjusting for the absorbed agents.

All in all lighting is a very complicated task, I think that some people would rather breed puffers in a 2.5 gallon tank then try to figure out what is what when it comes to lighting and I do not blame them. But this is what I call fun!

Wiz,

Nice to see someone willing to take the time and do the work. You're to be applauded for that.

Nobody is going to take offence, we're just having a friendly debate here.

But, I'm not buying it. Sorry. I've no scientific back up, just experience, but the chart doesn't make sense to me.

You're showing that I can use half the wattage of T8 to get the same effect as t12. That 1.5 wpg of T8 will qualify as high light. Sorry nope can't swallow that.

Give you an example when I first started out I used t8 bulbs. Now using you table for my 65gal tank i'd need 92 watts of t8 bulbs. Now if I rememeber correctly I had 90watts at the time I couldn't grow squat, apart from crypts and anubias.A few others but they looked real scrawny. And believe me I tried a lot of plants.
I canged over to 144watts of PC and did much better. Still a bit tight for some of the stuff I wanted to grow and getting a decent spread of light on a wide tank. Added another 60 watts of T5 for a total of 204 watts, now I can grow any plant out there.

So no real engineering back up just experience.

I feel something is missing in your calculations but I don't know what. Maybe lumens per square inch of surface area is a better calculation. Maybe something else. I know that you'll get better results using 1 20 watt bulb then 2 10 watt bulbs.

It could just be that you are using 3 wpg of T12 as "high light". Some of the old literature will tell you 3 wpg is the upper end of "moderate" and that 4-5 wpg (of t12) was "high"

The other option is to try it. Get 2 tanks , put the high light equivilant of T12 over one and the amount of t8 as on your table over the other , put identical plants and each tank (something light lovin' like Macrandra) and see which does best.

Until then I stand by "simplistic" answer, for the simple reason that I know it works. I can't see it working with half the light but I'm willing to be proved wrong.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Ok, here is simplicity. Conversion charts]http://www.cityofmist.com/aquaria/conversiontable.html[/link] I have generated a table giving total watts of T12 lights (to follow basic wpg principal) to attain the low, medium, and high values. The respective lumens generated by that much wattage of T12 for each respective light level. This information is provided for the tank sizes that the company [link=All Glass Aquarium produces. After someone has descided there tank size and the level of light they wish to have for there plants they can then take the ammount of watts (and lumens if they care to know that part of the "science" and go to the second table for the convesion of T12 Total Watts Needed(TWN) to MH, hoT5 and T8 Total Watts Needed. Then they just need to descide the configuration of lamps they want to use to get there desired lighting effect.

It doesnt get much simpler than charts given the higher accuracy. If you want high light and you use 3wpg of hoT5 on a 40 gallon tank I will look up 40 gallon tank, high light and I need 120watts of T12 or 4500lumens. So now I go down to the Conversion chart and look up 120watts and see how many wats of hoT5 I need and find I only need 60 watts. That is only 1.5 watts per gallon instead of three, so your recomending twice the required ammount. Now granted 3wpg is still fine for high light plants however you have just suggested that someone go out and buy twice the wattage then needed.

So now they can go to here and get one of these fixtures to get to 78watts in the two bulbs that reside in this fixture for 45 dollars instead of getting two so that they can get to the 120 that you suggested they used to get to 3wpg.

I hope that this clears up all questions about the differnces in the types of lighting availible. So I am not leaving the testing and work for the others, I am hoping that my research helps the people that are curious. If I have hurt anyones feelings in making this point I apologize. Its just in my opinion the watts per gallon being universally applied accross the board with very little tweaking and tweaking without understanding what the differnces are can prove to be disasterous imho. So I hope that this helps take it or not, if you want sources pm me and I can send you to the sights that I visited to come to this conclusion

Hi,
This has been interesting and could draw a crowd.

Actually watts per gallon goes back to the days of
incandescent light bulbs. Everyone of us knows that
a 100 watt bulb is brighter than a 15 watt bulb.
Regardless of the science behind it, or the power consumed,
we all know that difference. So, when talking about
Aquariums and how bright the light should be for various
plants, we tend to stick with terms or things we can all
relate to. We are deliberately omitting lumen's, CRI,
and sometimes the "temperature of the light" given off
(Degrees Kelvin) in much of our replies. We all know
that light and lighting is a science.

For those who want to go past the WPG this is a good
article [link=http://www.vengers.com/faq/faq14sec41.htm]http://www.vengers.com/faq/faq14sec41.htm" style="COLOR: #FF00FF[/link]

Here is a link that deals with lighting in Amano's tanks:
[link=http://www.fitchfamily.com/lighting.html]http://www.fitchfamily.com/lighting.html" style="COLOR: #FF00FF[/link]

Even more detailed:
[link=http://www.aquabotanic.com/lightcompare.htm]http://www.aquabotanic.com/lightcompare.htm" style="COLOR: #FF00FF[/link]

Also, there is, on the Internet, a British site that shows
a couple of dozen tanks, all the same size and capacity
lit by various aquarium light bulbs from the major
manufacturers that graphically depicts the perceived
differences between Temperature and wattages.
Unfortunately, I lost the site to a computer crash and
cannot link it here. Perhaps another reader might have
that site and post it.

There are dozens and dozens of sites on the Internet that
deal with Aquarium Light, and Lighting for everything
from looking at fish only tanks to Saltwater tanks with
specific invertebrates, to lush planted jungles. Some are
easy to read, and others nearly require a degree in Physics
and Math to comprehend.

WPG is, IMO, a good general rule of thumb for the beginner.
Low, medium, and high light furnished to match low, medium,
and high demand plants. It gets us started in talking
about the same thing and the same goal, a lush planted
tank.

I had someone mention that their understanding of Geology
and Chemistry was somewhat non existent after reading one
of my replies about carbonate rocks and high pH. My
comment back was that keeping an aquarium will soon expose
the owner to all sorts of science(s) and math and logic.
How deep they care to dig is up to them.

(Steps off soap box)
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Basically, someone needs to come up with a guide based on LUMENS

Well go right ahead. Can't keep leaving the testing and work to other folks

and people need to start calling/emailing the companies that make these lights and demanding lumen ratings.

Lets get real and re-join the rest of the non-aquarium population of the world. The vast vast majority of the bulbs market is for folks to stick bulbs in their living room, they could care less.

Then you can pretty easily come up with an average for anmy given type of bulb and start telling people you need XYZ number of lumens and ABC bulbs will provide this number of lumens.

Heck we can do that now ! What's so difficult ? 3 watts per gallon of water of T5 or PC lighting with decent reflectors will grow any darn plant you want. Go a bit higher if using t12 or t8. Use good old daylight bulbs, they're cheap and easy to find, and do as good a job as any fancy specialised bulbs. Spectrum, unless you get into the lower and higher extremes, doesn't mean squat for plant growth, it's a visual aesthetic issue.
What's so difficult ?
Maybe you don't like using watts, but it's a given that more watts is generally going to give more lumens. Folks can grab the watt concept and apply it much more easily.

bensaf - It's noble of you to want to give every single person who asks a simple question a simple answer, but the fact of the matter is that if they have to ask in the first place it's probably because we, the fish keeping community, have not done a good enough job of putting what we know out there.

Hell, unless you're a blonde supermodel, I don't have a noble bone in my body
We, "the community, are too good at putting what "we know" out there. The problem is too often what we think we "know" is rubbish. For years we've struggled to get past the high nitrate/phosphate causes algae baloney. And not often enough is a straight question given a straight answer.And all too infrequently is the phrase "I don't know" used.
Most want a simple protocol they follow to get started. As they progress in the hobby they may or may not get interested in the intricacies.

How many websites and forum posts are there that repeat the WPG mantra? A lot.

And whats wrong with that ? It works, it's simple, it's something people without an electrical engineering background can pick up and run with. It goes a bit wonky with very small and very large tanks, but you can adjust your answer reccomendation quite easy when dealing with those type of tanks.

How many are there that explain the quantity of light needed? VERY few.

The quantity of light needed is quite well covered in using wpg guidelines. I know I've mentioned before that the WPG guides most follow needs to be adjusted. But only in terms of the numbers. Lighting has increased in efficiency, most commercial fixtures use newer T5 or PC bulbs,and have reflectors built in so we just need to lower the numbers a bit when talking about these bulbs. The prinicple of using watts as a guideline is in itself fine, IMO, for the reasons I mention above. Most folks think they need more light then they actually do.

Also, T5 HO have a lower Lpw output than T5 NO :-) If you have the surface area for it you can get the same light output with about 3/4 the total wattage of T5 NO but it takes more bulbs.

Now see this is an example of how you can confuse the heck out of people. It certainly confuses me. Using HO T5 you need less watts but more bulbs ??? Doesn't more bulbs usually equal more watts ? I'm probably missing something, but if I can't get it , what's a beginner going to make of it ?

There are a number of factors in running a successful planted tank. Light is critical, but it's also the easiest to handle. Far easier to cater for , supply and keep stable then nutrients and Co2.

Lets keep it easy.

Just a good natured debate

Last edited by bensaf at 22-Dec-2005 20:55

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

mrwizerd - I think you said it pretty well. Basically, we need to get rid of this sill WPG myth once and for all and come up with a better guide for people who are new to the hobby.

Basically, someone needs to come up with a guide based on LUMENS and people need to start calling/emailing the companies that make these lights and demanding lumen ratings. Then you can pretty easily come up with an average for anmy given type of bulb and start telling people you need XYZ number of lumens and ABC bulbs will provide this number of lumens.

I got so fed up trying to figure out how much T5 I needed on my tank I very nearly ripped up all my plants and gave up. The only thing saving that saved me was some obscure information I found fom office lighting manufacturers after spending many days reading aobut lighting.

bensaf - It's noble of you to want to give every single person who asks a simple question a simple answer, but the fact of the matter is that if they have to ask in the first place it's probably because we, the fish keeping community, have not done a good enough job of putting what we know out there.

How many websites and forum posts are there that repeat the WPG mantra? A lot. How many are there that explain the quantity of light needed? VERY few. We should be working to reverse this trend. Times change, and we give people plenty of modern information about every other aspect of aquaria, so we shoudl do the same for lighting.

Also, T5 HO have a lower Lpw output than T5 NO :-) If you have the surface area for it you can get the same light output with about 3/4 the total wattage of T5 NO but it takes more bulbs.

Actually I think your correct on the way off topic. The topic was never how much light for my tank, very specifically the question is what is the differnce. I wrote what I wrote from just what you said and only what you said from the post I read here no where else, and also attempted to sumerise what others has said and that isnt high school science. However, now that I have actually done the leg work I think that I can not only answer her actual question but actually put in place the whole WPG myth that you have already admitted was created for the old t12 bulbs.

Firstly for non high school science here is a link for those of us who want to compaire side by side the differnces in MH and T5 AND T8.


http://www.aboutlightingcontrols.org/education/papers/high-low-bay-table.shtml

This all being said, watts per gallon is a falacy, if you tell someone they need 4-5 watts per gallon for there tank for high light plants and they get 4-5 wpg in metal halide they are going WAAAAAAAY overboard. My idea of helping someone isnt giving them a over simplified and often wrong answer for a more complicated question so, Here is the answer to this threads topic.

my 24" t12 20w Grow light puts out 750 lumens it is made by GE
though I dont have answers for t8 i understand they are similar to t5 and i do have that information.
24" t5 39w Bulbs which are HO are 3500 lumens
metal halide is a little differnt.

So here are the Lumens Per Watt (lpw) for each type of bulb (MH differ so i will use an average)

T12 = 37.5LpW
MH = 62.5LpW (average)
T5 = 73LpW 4 to get 20k lumens
T8 = 81LpW (t8's have less lumens per bulb than t5's)6 to get 18.6k lumens

So as it can be seen not all watts are equal. And though I may be new to this board, I do realize the importance of ease so for ease there shouldbe a new table so people understand equivilants. If anyone wants one please pm me and i will send you one in pdf format.

Last edited by mrwizerd at 22-Dec-2005 15:20

Last edited by mrwizerd at 22-Dec-2005 15:53

Ok, Bensaf your seeming contradicting. In one post you stated that the T5's are brighter in terms of lumens then the T12's, thus needing less.

mrwizerd,
I never said that if you use T5's you need less. That may be your assumption but it's not what I said.

You're also bringing in statements I made in other posts, which will only confuse matters.Yes the WPG guideline usually refers to NO T12 flourescents, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Whats the wpg of the Sun ?????? How much light of at a depth of 18-24" ?????
I don't know. I don't need to know. I don't particularly want to know.

Is a bulbs lumens a more important measurment then watts ? Yes. Watts is just a measurement of the power used not the amount of light produced. We just assume more watts=more lumens. But every bulb has the watts used stated on it , very few have the amount of lumens produced.

You missing the point, I'm not being contradictory. What I AM doing is trying to keep it simple !
We have a poster here who obviously knows very little about lights or lighting requirements as they apply to a planted aquarium but is savvy enough to ask the question before handing over her money. I could blind her with pseudo science and confuse the hell out of her OR I can give a quick simple answer which is what shes wants.

How many watts do I need to grow high light plants

On a tank her size, 2.5 -3 wpg = 100-120 total of light, preferably T5 or PC will grow any plant I know of. If the T5 is slightly more efficient then the PC or vice versa, great, but she'll be fine either way.
Chances are somebody going to buy a fixture today, the only ones available are using PC or T5 bulbs. Don't know of anyone, outside the really cheap Chinese brands, that are using T12 bulbs in their fixtures.

The short, simple answer she needs. It's always better just to let a beginner know many watts will do the job. It's quick, easy to understand.

I keep the more complicated stuff for different threads.

There's too much half baked mumbo jumbo in the planted tank hobby. That confuses people and scares them away. There's a very simple set of limited requirements that are needed to grow any plant sucessfully and problem free.We know how to meet this requirements and what needs to be added to do so. It's easy, real easy.

I try to keep things very simple, especially with people who are new to the hobby. I can give anybody a very simple problem free method that will grow pretty much anything in a number of different circumstances. That's what I try to do. They don't need to the understand the science or why it works. If they do fine, go ahead knock yourself out. But most just want a recipe that's going to work with the least amount of problems.

I've tried to do this with people many times. But you know what, the damndest thing happens. They or somebody else pops up with a half baked reason or poorly thought out piece of high school science and bam ! there's an overcomplicated mess. They start running around in circles 'til they wear themselves out.

Fine, their tank, their money. I'm not going to try to twist anybodies arm to believe me, I'm not going to defend what I reccomend, I'll anwser questions if there's confusion, but I'd prefer to spend the time looking at my tanks full of healthy algae free plants and happy fish

Way off topic I know, but I got out of the wrong side of the bed today.

Last edited by bensaf at 21-Dec-2005 21:19

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Ok, Bensaf your seeming contradicting. In one post you stated that the T5's are brighter in terms of lumens then the T12's, thus needing less. However, you also state that the only thing that matters is watts per gallon, which you state was only made for the NO T12's and not for any of the other lights. This is what it looks like to me, and I may be very wrong here but here it goes.

1. What is the wattage of the sun, and corrosponding wattage per gallon of water for the world? (this question is silly because the sun's light can not be messured in terms of wattage because wattage is characteristic of the ammount of electricity flowing thru the light at any given time.)

2. At any given circumstance what ammount of light described in lumens is delivered to plants 18-24" from the water's serface. (this is actually messurable and in my humble opinion should be the mesurment that we consider for setting up lighting for aquarium plants.)

*all questions are retorical.

Ok, now that being said, if a person currently is at 100w over a 40g tank we should actually be looking at lumen characteristics, if a normal t12 gives off 55lumens of "light power" and a t5 is giving off 105 then logic dictates that you only need 2-3 bulbs with t5's then with t12's which means depending on light requirements of the plants you may only need 1 to 3 of them over your tank to get to the equivalent of 100w of t12. Here is a comparison chart if the lumen information is correct that has been givin.

Q t12 t5
1 55 105
2 110 210
3 165 315
4 220 420
5 275 525
etc...

now considering that the t5's are smaller not only would you be able to pack more light in terms of watts over the tank but most importantly your packing more light in terms of lumens which is what matters most not watts per gallon. With my 5 t12's over my thirty I have packed them in as tight as possible and I have 275ish lumens over my tank if i convert them i will end up with 525 and if i change the fixtures i may be able to pack 5 more in and get 1050lumens over my tank which would probably give me a sun burn and I dont burn easily. Without a lumen monitor we cannot messure actual lumens ourselves, if anyone out there has a lumen monitor and would like to confirm my thoughts on this please let me know but for now I will stand on the hypotheticals given in this thread.

So, would you recommend just doing the power compact lights?

It doesn't really matter what type of bulb you use, it's the total wattage that matters most.

T5 bulbs are just as good as power compacts , you just need more then 1 or 2.

Try to get 100-120 watts of any light other then incandescent. The advantage of T5's and PC's is that the smaller size makes it easier to get a high amount of watts in a limited amount of space over the tank.

Nothing wrong with the fixture he was eager to sell you, you just need more then one.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

What are the differences in the different types of flourescent lighting? For example, whats the difference between 100 watts of T8 flourescent, 100 watts of compact flourescent, and 100 watts of T5 flourescent?

How many watts should I have over a 40 gallon tank (36 inches) for high-light plants if I'm using a T5 lighting system?

You need to aim for about 100-120 watts total.

28 watts is just not going to cut it, even for low light plants.

4 36" T5 bulbs will do nicely.

Trying to use the fixture that came with a tank, no matter what bulb you change to almost never works. You'll always need more bulbs, either through new fixtures or retro fitting the hood.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Err sorry, I didn't finish my last post before I posted it... Anyway, installing T5 lights in a T12 fixture is probably not a good idea for a reef tank (depending on the tank dimensions). You need substantially more light for a reef tank than a FW planted tank and so you need to cram the T5 bulbs very close together to get as many in there as possible if you want to use T5. T12 fixtures are going to leave too much space between bulbs. A better option would be to go to a local lighting supply store and buy a T5 fixture that has the bulbs spaced very closely.

Warning: I am new to this lighting business myself so my advice may not be 100% correct.

How many watts should I have over a 40 gallon tank (36 inches) for high-light plants if I'm using a T5 lighting system?

The 36 inch T5 lights are 24 watts. I think that the T12 lights were 30 watts. Given the higher light output of the T5, 2 of the 25 watts should equal about 3 1/2 od the old T12s. That might be enough for a 40 gal with high light plants but you might be a bit short. I dunno, I'm new to this myself.

could I put a T8 or T5 bulb in a T12 fixture?

Yes. T8 and T12 use the same fixture IIRC and there are adapters for turning a T12 fixture into a T5 fixture (See http://www.brittronic.com/?page=productinfo.html T5 lights are built a couple inches shorter for this reason). You would actually decrease your WPG but you would increase your light output.

This is probably not a very good option for a reef tank

Ok, I have to jump in here and ask a few questions myself abotu all this.

Say you have th store bought fluorescent lights that came with the tank in a set up. i assume these are T12 lights, right? Well, if you want to "up" the wpg in your tank could you do this buy buyign a T8 of T5 bulb without replacing the fixture? In other words, could I put a T8 or T5 bulb in a T12 fixture? I need more wpg in my tanks but I wanted to find an alternative to buying new fixtures if there is a way. I am a female. I have to look for a bargain if there is one ya know? If I can't do that I guess I will have to hold off even longer on my Reef tank until I can upgrade my current tanks lighting for my plants. Please let me know!!!


Christina

(Just a quick question.)
How many watts should I have over a 40 gallon tank (36 inches) for high-light plants if I'm using a T5 lighting system? A LFS over here has the T5 setup for $55 and he said it would work. I think it was something like 21-28 watts.
(I'm done now. )

______________
Cake or death?

P.S. There are other factors that affect the suitability of one bulb type vs. another in your application (bulb life, cost of setup, available bulbs/spectrums, namount of light required vs. area to mount the light etc).

HO/VHO also changes the output per watt.

Also, I don't know about the light output of power compacts because they are more expensive than I want to spend.

T12 is actually 12/8 of an inch (1 1/2 inch). T8 is 8/8 (1 inch) and T5 is 5/8 of an inch.

I've been digging into this a lot lately. My reading tells me that a 28 watt t5 has about 95-105 lumens per watt as opposed to t8 which is 90-100 and t12 which is something like 55.

So it seems that for the same length bulb, t5 and t8 are about equal in terms of light output but t5 is lower energy consumption. They are both brighter than a t12 of the same length. I've also read that t5s are designed to have their peak light output at 90 something degrees whereas t8 and t12 are 70 something degrees. This means that in the confined spaces of an aquarium hood you may get better light output with a t5 than a t12.

This information is INCREDIBLY hard ot come by.

T12, T8 and T5, the numbers refer to the diameter of the bulb. T12 for example is 12mm diameter. T12 is your bog standard flourescent tube. So in fact T5 is the thinnest not the thickest.

Where the thinner bulbs have an advantage is that they have the same power in a smaller package = more intense light. The light from a T5 bulb is able to penetrate the water better.Another big advantage, thinner bulbs mean we can pack more in the limited space over our tanks, again increasing intensity.

T12 are available in VHO versions.

T5 are available in HO versions. i.e a normal 3 foot T5 bulb will be 21 watts. A HO will be 39watts for the same size.

T12 and T5 can run off the same ballast, but not the VHO type bulbs. T5 needs a different ballast.

PC bulbs are basically a tube bent into a U shape. Again the smaller shape means more intensity and less space needed. PC's run cooler then flourscent tubes and last longer they don't lose much intensity over time.

Bear in mind the WPG "rule" was in reference to NO T12 flourescent. Using the new lighting technology and good reflectors now available you can get away with less WPG then most of the literature on the net would have you believe.

3 wpg will grow even the most light demanding plants.

Basically the new smaller thinner bulbs offer more intense light and their size makes it easy to provide enough light to pretty much any tank.



Last edited by bensaf at 16-Dec-2005 22:05

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.