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I don't post here much cause I'm not great with diseases and don't often see them in my tanks. I set up my 50g planted FW, fishless cycled, and had fish in it at the end of this past August. Filtration is a fluval 204 and a penguin 125. Plus a ton of fast growing plants.

At one point I had 8 preacox rainbows, 10 featherfin rainbows, 6 furcata rainbows, and 4 otos. It was pretty full admittedly, but I never saw NH4 and had to add NO3 for the plants.

The fish have disappeared one at a time over the last 3 or so months with no symptoms. I haven't added any since they started dropping off. I now have 7 praecox, 3 furcatas, and 3 otos. This is the first visible sign of disease I've gotten this whole time, and I've been looking. I saw it yesterday, it's a raised bump and almost looks like something is protruding out of it's side. It doesn't really look fungal...might just be a bacterial infection from a wound though. Like I said I'm not real great with disease ID. I will admit that I've only ever pulled out one of the fish that died because I never found any of the others. There's simply too much plant mass to search for fish bodies. However I've never tested any level of ammonia or nitrite since I cycled the tank in early august. I even cross tested with other kits a couple times.

Before I post up the pics I'll give my parameters, tested just 10 minutes ago:

NH4: 0ppm
NO2: 0ppm
NO3: 5-10ppm (added via KNO3)
pH: 7.0
KH: 9 dkh
Temp: 78F

Water changes approximately 40% once every week or two. I feed very lightly twice a day, once with veggie flakes, and the second is alternately bbs, cyclopeez, brine, or mysis shrimp. They keep a healthy figure, but I try to limit food for algae's sake. He is still eating though, so I guess that's a good sign.

So this is all the same fish, no other fish currently show signs of illness, nor have they in the past.




Lemme know if there's any oter info I need to give.

Mostly I'm just interested in if this could be a symptom of the same thing that's been killing everything else off. I don't have a QT and I'm not willing to treat with anything that will kill off the plants. I'm just interested in knowing what is going on and what would be the normal course of action, if there is one.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi Matt, I dont think I will be much help as we have limited medications available in Aus so am not familiar with most meds available and what would be harmful to plants or not. Is that lump right behind the gill? The first thing that comes to mind is flukes or parasites. Do they flash against anything in the tank?

Hopefully someone will come along with some med savvy to help you out.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Thanks for the reply Lindy.

Do they flash against anything in the tank?

Nope, he's the only one with any visible problem, and he is acting normal and eating well. They all act normal, all chasing and displaying around the tank, trying to figure out the heirarchy. I never see and flashing up against anything.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well this guy is a trooper and made it another day, but unfortunately a previously fat happy looking oto kicked the preverbial bucket.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Any oddities about the otto after death?

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

No I didn't see any parasites or lesions or anything of that nature. The only odd thing was that I found it.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

well seeing that you dont have a qt; a rubbermaid bin makes a good one at a fraction of the cost

*click *flash *click "whered he go???"

The only slowly-progressing fish disease I know that causes ulcers like that is Tuberculosis. Some fish don't show any external symptoms when they die, but others will show any combination of ulcers, bent spines, dark spots, defective fins, and behavioral problems.

You might want to look into fish Tuberculosis and see if it sounds like a possibility. If you want, you could dissect the next fish that dies and see if you can find the telltale granule-like areas of necrotic tissue in the internal organs.

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

Hi there Matt,
I lost all my rainbow fish in the past to this
exact same thing. It occured in the same location
as on your fish, or on the end of the snout near the
mouth.
It kept growing until the fish could no longer
use the fins on the side.
It spread too - to all the other rainbows in the tank,
and I lost them all. (shame boesmanis are very very
expensive here and I had a female too)
A friend in my aquarium club has had the same happen
with his rainbowfish, and is keeping it alive trying all known meds to cure this.
It does not seem to be working.
I do not think it is TB, tb is very rare and usually
has no external symptoms aside from curvation of the
spine and emaciation.
Im thinking its related to Lymphocystitus in some
way - but I dont think that spreads.
I wish you the very best of luck.
I would isolate the fish immediately to avoid spread
to the other fish.

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Great pictures, Matt. It could be TB but I would think that you would see some spinal deformity. If the patch begins to get fuzzy, I would think that it may be columnaris. However, columnaris is a sign of less than pristine water conditions.

The next thoughts would be bacterial infection around a wound, a tumor or cysts. I would not attempt to treat it until you see further indications that would allow you to diagnose the problem.

Interesting loss of inhabitants as all of the featherfins died. Obviously some need was not met or they had problems before they hit your tank. Perhaps the featherfins and furcata acted as canaries in an over stocked environment? Have losses slowed as the population came down?



__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Thanks for the help everybody.

Natalie - I never see any other outward signs of disease, this is still the only thing I have seen. Nobody has bent spines, and the all eat and act normal .

Sneaky - like I said to Natalie, I don't see this on any of the others, or I'd tend to agree with you. Thanks for wishing me luck, but I'm not sure it will help.

Bob - if stocking is measured through waste products, the tank was never overstocked. If they were canaries, I would assume they would have stopped dropping when the right population was hit, but I now have 10 2 inch thin fish in a 50. I don't really think the losses have slowed much, it's been 1 every week or two since this started.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Actually, fish tuberculosis is not a rare disease at all. From what I've been reading, the bacteria can can be found in many aquarium fish (I found numbers anywhere from 5-20% of store-bought fish), but only relatively small numbers of those fish actually become infected. And the fish that do infected can present the illness in many different forms (ulcers, dropsy, bent spines, frayed fins, etc.). Ultimately the symptoms (if any) depend on which organs or organ systems are infected by the bacteria.

Additionally, bent spines are certainly not the only indicator of fish tuberculosis - most infected fish never develop this at all. The bent spine is a result of the infection spreading the fishes' skeletal system, which does not always happen. The key to identifying this disease is to dissect the fish and look for the granulated pockets of necrotic tissue in the fishes' organs.

Interestingly, a quick Google image search for "fish tuberculosis" yielded some rather unexpected results. On the first page there are two pictures of infected Rainbowfish (none are Dwarfs, but they appear to be Melanotaenia). The infection was externally manifested as ulcers on the sides of the fish. They appear similar to Matty's fish, albeit his fish seems to have a more advanced stage of infection. Here are links to the pictures:

http://www.reefs.org/library/aquarium_net/0897/images/cd1img12.jpg

http://www.adelaideaquariums.com.au/siteimages/faqs/fishtb.jpg

In fact, out of the total number of pictures I found of fish with TB (about seven), only two appeared to show bent spines. I believe that tuberculosis is definitely a possibility and should be considered and investigated.

Also, I just did a Yahoo image search, and that brought up more pictures of fish infected with tuberculosis that have no external symptoms other than ulcers on the body:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=Fish+tuberculosis&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&x=wrt

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

So let's say it is TB (though I'm not afraid of slicing a fish open, I'm not sure I'll get the chance before I leave on vacation), as it seems a few people think that's most likely. Is there some type of medication....I thought it was pretty much a death sentence anyways.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

From what I've been reading, most treatments have no effect. Even if that is so, it would definitely be a good idea to seperate the infected fish to prevent the spread of the suspected illness. You might want to treat them with a good antibiotic like Maracyn Plus, just in case it helps.

If a fish dies you can just put it in the freezer and save it for after your vacation.

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

I have read alot of tb too, and it is indeed
very rare. Relatively few fish ever tested
for tb show to have it.
At least in north america anyway.
However, due to the massive use of antibiotics and other chemicals in the fish farms and pet stores, it would be
of no surprise that the incidence of this disease could
be increasing over time.

Remember - people can catch fish TB too. Do not handle
fish infected with bare hands, and wash extremely well with an antibacterial soap after putting hands in the tank.
While it does not transfer to TB in humans, it does cause
an awful respiratory illness in humans.

Id suggest having a fish frozen and taking it for a necropsy. This will tell you for sure what it is.

As for treatment, I have heard there has been limited
success with Tetracycline, and no other product.
You may want to try that, remember, tetracycline can
cause birth defects and affect fertility of animals and humans in only short term use. Avoid contact with this drug and wash well after exposure. Do not use it if you
are pregnant, or someone in your house is and could come
in contact with it.


Come Play Yahtzee With Me!
http://games.atari.com
Http://www.myleague.com/yahtgames

the doctor is in lol. Theres no way to be conclusive about that ulceration being fish tuberculosis, but if it is metronidazole will help. I had something similar many years ago and the cause may surprise you. A batch of rainbows got infected with cauliflower disease, or a similar looking papilloma virus from ingesting flesh from a platy whos lump had exploded . ( this was in the days when i assumed it was cancer, and in a way i wasnt far wrong, i just wasnt aware that some viruses can genetically change tissue to cause cancer.) The ottos that had been in the tank died suddenly with no symptoms, and the other rainbows started getting lumpy. A tested fish corpse revealed no mycobacterial tb infection, but certainly a viral papilloma infection, and a massive immuno response. This was caused by ingestion of infected tissue.

The inflammation and abcessation looks identical to the disease my fish had, which is unfortunate because if it is a papilloma virus, the buds are cancerous , and all infected fish tissue is able to transmit the virus when eaten. Only cure is quarantine and euthanisation of infected individuals.

Try metronidazole treatment, and if it fails then I guess its a papilloma virus.

Good luck with any remaining fish. Either way, strip that tank down.

far out i didnt know that tb could do such damage,ive been following this post,i also would give the metronidazole a go,when my oscars got h.i.t.h,i got some from my local vet and in about a month it was all but gone,it worked wonders for my fish and it was dirt cheap and no prescription was needed,its a over the counter anntibiotic,and it didnt harm ANY of my other fish

Thanks again

If I were to take the remaining fish out of the tank, how long should I keep it up before I can safely stock it with new fish? I assume that eventually anything infectious would die without a host...

Tearing down the tank and bleaching things isn't an option, I don't have $ to get new gravel and plants AND fish.

BTW the fish with the growth is still alive, but 2 others died while I was away.

Is the metro treatment plant/bacterial filter safe?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

as far as i know the metro is plant and filter safe,i used it for well over a month and my plants were fine,as for the filter,when ever i finish useing ANY meds i give the tank a dose with cycle or some sort of bio booster just to be on the safe side

me·tro·ni·da·zole unciation (mtr-nd-zl) n. - A synthetic antimicrobial drug, C6H9N3O3, used in the treatment of vaginal trichomoniasis, anaerobic bacterial infections, and intestinal amebiasis.

Having posted the definition of the drug, I will still state that I have used many times in the past... for my fish. I used it effectively at half the recommended strength as any antibacterial agent should have an impact on your bio-filter.



__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright