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Yes bensaf is right, if you use the foods with metronidazole in, the doses are so low and the application so specific that you will only treat the gastrointestinal tract. If however you buy the pure form and either dose the water or inject the fish you can treat the other tissues , including infections in brain tissue, muscle tissues and the nervous system.

There is one point though, and that is I would not use the drug pre-emptively. If you increase the amount of exposure a particular parasite has to a certain drug, over time , multigenerationally the more resistant to that drug a parasite will become.Thats why doctors and vets can get quite defensive about handing out drugs when they are unsure there is a genuine need.You do however, have a need, so use it.

Metronidazole is a very safe drug generally, but it has been implicated in cases of brain damage (much as other drugs like ivomec have been) and it has also made certain animals sterile. These occurrances are very rare, but you should be aware of them. When you face a disastrous protozoan infection however , your choice becomes very clear. The odds are better using it than not. MUCH better.

As for where to get it, if you havent got time to muck about or wait for mail order, your vet should stock it or be able to get it. You will always pay a premium for buying drugs from a vet though. The choice is yours.

In addition , you still cannot be sure that antibiotics are not needed, theres many, many antibiotics out there for different ailments. Penicillin has a long history of use , as has tetracycline, thusly theres a good chance of bacteria being resistant to it. My personal choice would be baytril (enrofloaxin). Its about the broadest of the broad spectrum antibiotics, and in my time in animal rescue I couldnt help notice it was THE most effective antibiotic for the most different species and the most different bacteria. Im talking literally thousands of cases in which use of the drug was successful, and thats in my personal experience, not just reading off of stats.

Its just a friendly warning that sometimes you may have to try a number of different antibiotics if no sample has been taken for analysis.If you dont know the actual bacteria youre dealing with, take the approach that will give you the most chance of making a successful hit, and sometimes that means multiple attempts with different drugs.


and bensaf... you dont treat ich? What on earth happens to the fish then....just keep the survivors if there are any?

Last edited by longhairedgit at 03-Dec-2005 02:51

Yup, herpetologists are even weirder than aquarists, you dont really want to know what happens in the darkened recesses of our homes

Whats wrong with feeding a 5 foot spectacled caiman chickens? I eat more KFC than he does lol. He's a bit past the cricket and earthwormworm stage. I dont suppose youd want to know that during his life hes eaten baby mice, rats, rabbits, gerbils, hamsters,and several kinds of fish then either.

....and yes I do worry that some nonce will let the cat in his room, hence the wire mesh and double doors. Hes all screened off behind perspex too.

BTW just incase anyone was about to have a bash at me for keeping such an insane animal , it should be noted he was a rescue, and Ive been looking after him for the last 4 years (apparently it does take a wildlife park 4 years to get round to building his enclosure - I was only supposed to take him on for 6 months!) , but his new home is finally finished and he'll be off in a couple of months, Im gonna really miss him. Hes actually always been very gentle with me, never snapped even once.In fact in many ways once the proper precautions were taken I actually found him easier to keep than my damn iguana, who to be honest, is downright vicious.

and before anyone gets any bright ideas, caiman usually require a DWA license or its equivalent before you can own one, and their cites category means you can be held seriously responsible for the animal, and if anyone gets injured youd be liable to the degree you may be bankrupted or imprisoned. The scary thing is, in the uk a petshop licence covers you for short term ownership. Can you imagine petsmart staff handling one? In this case I dont literally own the animal , im holding it for transfer to a zoo with local authority agreement. In a private context, id never choose to own such an animal. I think theyre great, but when hes gone I wont miss the work , the risks , the costs, or having to remain diligent.

Last edited by longhairedgit at 12-Dec-2005 20:25

luvmykrib,

Yeah, I found that the first entry on any new page is not editable. Maybe this will change when we go to the new design (whenever that is).

No, I haven’t replaced the lost Pearl as I cannot rule out that she was chased to death by the other two. It is highly unlikely, but possible. The 2 are just fine, the male is clearly the boss and occupies almost the whole tank as his territory. But sometimes he lets the female come out and they gently nip at each others sides a few times.

Keep an eye on your Harlequin, if he dies remove him as soon as you can, you don’t want to pollute the water.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sorry about the gourami LF, have you replaced it yet? The others looked pretty healthy in the last pic though.
I'm probably going to lose the harly that hit the floor for 5 minutes. I'm not looking forward to it. He seemed so determined to survive. The kids shouldn't leave their books lying around for poor little harlies to fall into when their bags explode! Maybe I should keep kids in tanks!
I tried to edit my last reply and it wouldn't let me, that's why there's two posts.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

You guys are nuts! Was the chicken to feed the Caiman? I like them, but I don't think I'd keep one at home if they eat chickens, my cats may go mysteriously missing. And my chicken of a dog as well, she may cause serious choking though!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Why am I not surprised, longhairedgit?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Oddly enough I have had caiman (live) and chickens (dead) in my aquaria before now.

The chicken was impeded from breeding due to loss of head. Metronidazole was not complicit.

Last edited by longhairedgit at 11-Dec-2005 19:24

Just for reference metronidazole has been implicated with infertility in poultry and reptiles too

Gee, I am glad I don’t have a chicken or an alligator in my tank.



Sorry, I couldn’t resist.

But seriously, thank you all for the comments and inputs of what I have to be on the watch for.

The medication has finally arrived at my house and I might add it to the tank tonight. Both Pearls are doing fine so far, although the male is becoming very territorial.

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 09-Dec-2005 11:05

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Just for reference metronidazole has been implicated with infertility in poultry and reptiles too, especially large boids.It seems to be a confirmed side effect with the drug, but it only happens to a very small proportion of those animals treated with it (less than 1%), I dont personally think its an inbreeding issue, although obviously inbred fish could suffer from breeding depression anyway. Having said that Id rather risk a small chance of a fish becoming infertile than I would have it suffer a lingering death, so I dont think people should be discouraged from using it. Metronidazole can be administered at least three different ways, including an injectable version, ingestible antiparasite foods, and in suspension (ie flagyl 9).The size of the animal limits your options though. The mistake people make is that assuming an antiparasite food will neccesarily treat hexamita,hexamita obviously causes compound symptoms outside of the gut (the head holes for one) and this can be treated with the injectable version much more effectively. Discus are not too small to inject as adults, and adult oscars are easier.

As for not treating ich , it depends on the fish, but letting the infection run for several days untreated can be risky. Whitespot can kill, and does kill. Leaving it untreated is a risk that many keepers may not wish to run. Ive seen it clear up on its own myself, but equally, ive also seen it severe enough to require treatment. If in doubt, get rid of it.



Last edited by longhairedgit at 09-Dec-2005 08:10

Metronidazole has been the drug of choice for some years now with respect to certain fish diseases, most notably Hexamitiasis in Discus (the so-called 'Hole in the Head' disease). In this case, because the parasites inhabit the gut, the metronidazole is administered with food, as well as in the form of a topical administration along with furan antibiotics on any head lesions. The reports of fish sterility have principally emanated from the world of Discus keeping, though I have reason to suspect that some of these reports may have at least some grounding in the fact that the Discus reportedly affected were highly developed fancy strains, and that inbreeding could have been an issue here.

If gastrointestinal parasites are an issue with certain Labyrinth fishes, then I see no reason why administration of metronidazole to deal with said parasites should be problematic. However, administration of metronidazole alongside an antibiotic WILL naturally be problematic in a matured aquarium if this is done by dosing the aquarium rather than dosing the food! If the fishes are 'eating but unhappy' as you say Ingo, then dosing their flakes with metronidazole should clear things up quite nicely without harming your biofilter.



Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I don't treat for ich here either and it sure isn't warm. -1F/-18C and winter just started. I treated the first time I saw it when the room my 29g was in jumped from 78F to 85F while noone was home. All the black neons, angel, and rams got ich but recovered fine. I now keep the tank at 81F so if it happens again it won't be as much of a shock. Since then I've had tons of threadfins come down with ich. Everytime I bring one home or have one shipped to me it gets ich and I've only lost 1 so far. The other time I remember is when all 7 clown plecos got ich right after I added them to the main tank. Not only did they recover without treatment but noone else got it either. Healthy fish in a healthy tank recover just fine from ich if they even manage to get it in the first place.

I wasn't aware baytril was that widely used. It can be used safely with fish? I didn't run into baytril until I had to treat a guinea pig for a major staph infection and trimethoprim sulfa failed to work. Of course I mostly just deal with sick horses and livestock penicillin is extremely easy to get, pretty cheap, and tolerated very well by horses(unlike guinea pigs).

Damn thats lucky,fish infected in this neck of the woods tend to get infected so bad they eventually die unless treated.Ive seen peripheral infections that go away on their own, but Ive had to treat a few times. Depends on the species , my tetras can shake it on their own, but ive had cichlids, rainbows and barbs that couldnt. Since when I get an infection I bump the heat right up to the 80's you cant say its entirely heat related, that just increases the speed of its reproduction and without treatment that can sometimes increase the infestation. Some fish have a legacy of exposure, and that does seem to make them more immune over time. Perhaps your fish had an infection before and arent susceptible to it so much now?

Last edited by longhairedgit at 05-Dec-2005 01:45

and bensaf... you dont treat ich? What on earth happens to the fish then....just keep the survivors if there are any?

Never ever lost a fish to Ich. Ever.

I live in the tropics - warm water, no heater. Ich just doesn't last long. Usually new fish bring it in, completely disappears within a day or two.

Never seen it last longer then 2 days and as I said never seen a fish even act sickly from it much less die.Doesn't come back either. So what's to treat ?

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks longhairedgit for the detailed explanation

I couldn't find the med anywhere locally (didn't have much time after 6 hours of messing with the 125G either).

Both fish look fine (I know Bensaf, that doesn't mean anything), the pair is forming. The male chases the female away but she wants to have his company anyways. So occasionally he lets her swim with him and they nudge gently on each others sides.

I ordered the med online.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Gang,

I purchased yesterday 3 Pearl Gouramies and tonight when I can home from work one of them was dead .

The are currently housed in my QT 20G Long]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Aquascaping/63901.html?200512011440[/link] pictures of them can be seen on [link=This Page.

The tank parameters are Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, and Nitrate around 20ppm (it is a planted tank with fertilizer addition). Tank temp is 80F, ph should be around 7 and GH maybe 2dH.

The last water change was 10 days ago (next one would be this Sunday, but I will do a 50% change as soon as I have finished writing this).

The dead one was a female and did not show any external signs of distress. The 2 remaining ones m/f where hiding in the plants in the left back corner, but came out after I added food to the tank and they ate it. They were a little jumpy but otherwise seemed to be fine, they went back into the plants during feeding but came back out frequently. The tank is also home to 5 Platies (2 adults and 3 juveniles), none of them show physical signs of stress. Neither did I see any aggression between Platies and Gouramies during feeding.

I hope I gave you all the information needed to take a guess. Mine are:

Stress from purchase and new environment (had bag in tank for 30min closed for temp exchange, then 1 hour adding tank water, then release).
Stress between the other female and the dead one.

Both of my thoughts seem possible, but maybe you have a better idea of what append,

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 02-Dec-2005 19:49

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Bensaf,

I am glad I asked first before I added anything to the tank. Now the only question is where I will get the real stuff. I will work on this tomorrow.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

It's obviously got some anti-bacterial stuff in there, hence the warnings about the bacteria colony. Metrodizanole won't do this.

The fact that the fish is eating doesn't mean much when it comes to parasites. I've seen fish with parasites eat like there's no tomorrow and slowly fade away at the same time.

I'd hold off 'til you get hold of some pure Metro. Once you have it, I'd dose with that no matter how well the fish look.

Nobody hates dosing meds more then me. I won't even treat Ich. There's is only 2 meds I've put in my tanks in the past 2 years. Metrodizanole is one of them. Purely because it's is so mild and very specific. It's never affected plants, bacteria colonies or fish, no matter how sensitive. You throw a dose in and forget about it. But it works great on parasites and I've seen some pretty stressed fish bounce back in a day or 2. As I said earlier I use it on every Gourami I buy now.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks Keith

I am not so sure if I am getting on top of the problem that quickly. I have not treated the tank yet. Here is why:

First of all, when I came home both Pearls were out in the open water. When I got close they zoomed away to hide, I think they are a little shy. I added flake food to the tank and, about a minute later, first the male and then the female came out to eat. Both ate well, no flinging this time. After their meal they stayed out (I was a few steps away from the tank not to disturb them). Nothing else to report from the feeding event, no signs of discomfort.

So, off to the LFS I went. First I argued that it is kind of ridiculous to request from me to bring in the dead fish and a water sample so that they believe me that I try not to get a free $5 fish out of them. As the discussion progressed they seemed to understand that I know what I am talking about (QT, water quality, planted, acclimatization, etc) and gave me store credit for the fish. I used it right away to buy plants (story will be I my 125G log in a few minutes) and medicine. The problem with that was that they carry only one kind.

It is called Hex-Out by Aquarium Products. It contains besides Metronidazole also Flagyl, Imidazole-1-Ethanol, and 2-Methyl-5-Nitro. That’s a lot of stuff that I don’t know what it does. The description reads “… does not affect plants and algae, but can affect NITRIFICATION…” And also “… treat separate tank rather than directly in an established biological system.” Scary, plus some info that it has effects on reproduction.

Now, I have fish that seem normal and a medicine that I don’t completely understand.

What do I do?

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

By asking the correct questions quickly it looks like you are getting on top of the problem.

I have concentrated on the Opaline Gourami since I was informed about some of the problems that can occur with the Pearls.

Have a look in [link=My Profile]http://
www.fishprofiles.com/interactive/forums/profile.asp?userid=6741" style="COLOR: #00FF00[/link] for my tank info

[link=Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tanks]http://photobucket.com/albums/b209/keithgh/Betta%20desktop%20tank/" style="COLOR: #00FF00[/link]

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
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Read the seachem blurb. It doesn't HAVE to be fed but it CAN be.

As for the platies, well one of the problems of using an existing tank as a QT is if you do introduce a sick fish the whole tank has to be treated. You will have to assume the Platies are now infected also. Probably not, but that's the approach you have to take.

As I said Metro is very mild. Often used even when theres no obvious symtoms as a precaution. Won't harm the Platies at all even if they are not infected. It'll also knock out most parasites that might be lurking in plants etc.

I've always dosed the water not fed. Works fine. I've seen some pretty miserable fish bounce back real quick.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.