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I just tell it like it is, blunt and to the point. . . I don't think we should be rude but at the same time I'm not going to tip toe around someone just because they're new. If someone has a goldfish in a bowl, I'm going to tell them the fish will quickly die in that environment, period. If someone has poor water quality from not taking care of their tank well enough, I will say so. If someone has a sick fish that will probably not survive, I tell them. I always back it up with facts, and try to word it well so that it won't sound condescending but at the same time I think it's very important to tell them how it is! Any time I post a question up, I want a good honest answer, whether it's one that I'm going to like or not.

In my opinion a lot of this "rudeness" that some newbies complain about is only their reaction to bad news. I know there have been a few cases of people being hostile to the newbs, but most of the time I have seen this it happens because the newer member (and even sometimes older ones) gets some good advice that they just weren't prepared to hear. Nobody wants to know that they have been abusing their pets, or that they have made a mistake, but like anything else in life there are always mistakes made in this hobby. You deal with it, solve the problem and move on to be a much better fishkeeper. I don't agree with short posts that don't offer any solution, only criticism, but sometimes constructive criticism is necessary to solve a problem.

What is more important? Making sure newbies have the facts or making sure they won't be offended by them? I think that's an individual thing that we all need to decide for ourselves but I know what my answer is.

I think what decides it for me is that fishkeeping is a hobby that deals with living creatures that have the same right to be healthy as we do (in my opinion), and that as fishkeepers that is our main responsibility. If we fail that we fail as hobbyists. There is also no recreation in staring at dead fish and stinky tanks. Having seen a good number of sick and dead fish over the course of 15 years in the hobby I can assure you that is not anecdotal.

We need to be helpful and understanding but we also need to be honest, and even blunt at times. It is EXTREMELY frustrating, seeing hundreds of bad excuses for the abuse of creatures in tanks and being accused of being "harsh" for telling it like it is. I know not every person in this hobby is going to be as caring and passionate about the wellbeing of the fish we keep, but am I wrong to think they should be?

Personally I think that if people aren't going to take the time, money, effort and care required to do well in this hobby, they need to find something else to do with their time or decorate their living room.

Anyway, enough ranting, here's what I suggest:

Above all, be honest.
Try to understand that not everybody has the same level of experience and that there are no stupid questions.
As long as the newbies are willing to listen, let's share our knowledge and teach them how to have butt kicking tanks!

Maybe the mods could have a policy for dealing with the repeat posters that are only looking for validation of mistreatment of their fish. . . Stepping in to say: The judges have spoken, you have your answer, now deal with it! ]

This is really not what I had in mind for this thread... Lock it please....

Please don't use these threads as a personal slanging match! That's just childish
Enough people have started them to surely make us realise that there is a problem.

Attacking some poor person that cares enough about their fish to even bother asking for help and is honest but making some crucial mistakes then Callatya's advice works much better

If it is to educate fishkeepers, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

I've also seen a couple of newbs that come in here and you get the feeling pretty quickly that they're really not going to listen to anything they're told, then it's a good idea to use Tim's good advice and

Just be polite.. if you have nothing good to say, don't say it. That's what the report post option is for

I think the answer to the original post in this thread is to ******** be kind ******** be kind ******** be kind ******** be kind ******** be kind ******** be kind.

Kindness no. 1 priority
Information no. 2 priority

seems backwards but if people are kind you want to know more. If they overwhelm people with info and make people feel like a bad fishkeeper because they didn't know any better yet then the person will slink off with their tail between their legs and not post ever again.

Just be kind.
How about making the most important thing that the person feels good about themselves
and that you are knowledgable the second most important thing?????

Last edited by wish-ga at 03-Jan-2005 18:24

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~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

*sigh* It's a lot harder to be a mod, then people think. I wish others would cut them some slack.
If you have an issue with a post or a poster, then discuss it with one of the mods, don't just assume the mods are doing or not doing something to peeve certain types of people off.

This thread is going in the wrong direction now.

Bottom Line: Just play nice!

hmmmmm *pulls my skeptical face* When the mdoeration team clearly agrees with inflammatory opinions posted on threads, then reporting posts loses it's effect.....

Well yes, it is at our discretion. And you do not know our reasons for leaving a reported post alone. And no, we don't have to report to everyone our reasons.

We may know what is going on, and there may be a specific reason that we are leaving the post alone. It may be that there is another thread from the same person, on the same subject, that you have not read. And this may just be a continued debate. You may not have read/seen the other thread. Another thing, that happens quite often, and is usally directly related to what you are inquiring there, is that some people go into chat and ask the same exact questions in there before they post the thread. All the answers they recieve are telling them not to do something, and they don't like what they are hearing. So, they go and start a thread about it. Then, all the persons that were in chat, see the thread and answer directly and sometimes it is harsh or inflammatory. I have personally seen this many times. And I have gotten reported posts about them. Why do I not delete the responses? Because all answers yes or no, should be left. So that the person and any others that may read the thread, can get the ideas/information they are looking for. The thing you should be thinking about, is "why are are they posting such inflammitory responses?" I know of one person just recently, that posted in one forum about the pure meaness of overstocking a tank, with large fish in a too small of tank. Then turned right around a week later, and placed 7 aggressive and territorial fish that all get 5+ inches and three that get 12+ inches, in a 55 gal tank. Out of which 3 pairs of which are each highly territorial, and would require the entire bottom of the tank as their territory. Talked about them in chat, and was told the dangers of doing what they had done. And, while in chat, was telling everyone about how they were fighting for territories. Then they went on to post a thread, in a different forum, telling everyone what they have in their tanks now, and how "well" they were doing. Needless to say, there were several inflammitory responses in that thread. Do we remove them? It would be nice to do so, as others may think bad of the site, because they are there. But, then the person starting the thread only gets a few posts about them maybe doing OK. So now it looks like the mixture is a good one to anyone else that reads it. Then newbies will read it, with only good posts in it, and think it is OK. So now we have sent the wrong message. Some threads and posts need to stay, even if they are somewhat inflammitory. As it may be the only way to get the point across.

We do look at all reported post, and yes, as a priority. What may appear inflammatory to you, may not be inflammatory at all. It may just be a hard discussion that has been carried over from one post to another. We may know what's going on, while you may not. If we did what everyone wanted us to do with each and every post, then there would be no threads in the end. Maybe someone posts a question, and does not like the first few answers. Then they report the thread, and want those answers removed from their thread, because they don't like them, and to that individual, they think them to be inflammatory/condensending, because maybe that person believes they are right and the others are wrong. Believe me when I tell you that we do get reports just like this. And it is actually quite often. Usually in the stocking threads. As someone will post against a certain stock of fish listed, and someone else will post for the listed stock. Then we will get a reported post that says, "Post reported for following reason; This guy does not know what he is doing. That fish stock will be just fine. I kept the exact fish stock in the same size tank, for over a year. Can you please delete their post!" Who is right, and who is wrong? So, do we delete the post, just because someone says so? Do we determine who is write and delete the wrong post? NO. As all fish keeping is not an exact science. And as such, what works for one person, may not work for another. If it was truely this easy in fish keeping, that everything worked the same, then there would be no need for this website. As you would only need an article website to tell you the exacts. But, we need input, experiences, knowledge about others experiences, ect ect, and that is why everyone comes to this website, for info.

So please, don't question the mods if they don't delete something you reported to them. They may have a very good reason for leaving it be. But, they will be keeping an eye on the thread, just to make sure it does not get out of hand. So yes, it is a good thing to report all posts you find that may be ill natured and such, as they will be looked at. There just may be a reason you don't know about, as to wether we leave them alone, and don't delete it.

What is more important? Making sure newbies have the facts or making sure they won't be offended by them? I think that's an individual thing that we all need to decide for ourselves but I know what my answer is.

I have to agree.... with Callatya. Why can't you do both? There is no need to be condensending or offensive when answering a thread. Give reasons why your facts are facts. Explain things to the newbies, in a way that they can understand. Take the time to listen to them as well, as they may not have the knowledge to understand what you are trying to say.

Because, if you offend someone, then your facts mean nothing to them, as they will not want to listen to you any more, and probably/most likely won't take your advice either. So then, why post at all, if there is a chance they won't even bother to listed to you. There is a difference between stating the facts, and doing it in a condensending/offensive way.

Another thing, what makes your experiences and facts any better than someone else that has posted contradicting you. Most people, especially newbies to the site, will listen to others that take the time to be friendly, and caring to the query at hand. And usually not listen to those who are condesending. And, as has many times happened, they will leave the site, and go to another that is more acceptable to them.



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There is always a bigger fish...

Uh huh, and since you know us all so well you would know.

I dont know any of you, but I can read between the lines of whatis edited and what isnt, and that tells its own story.

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I like to think that whoever designed marine life was thinking of it as basically an entertainment medium. That would explain some of the things down there, some of the unearthly biological contraptions

I think message boards are fluid things, sometimes they are friendly - when every one agrees or is at the same level, and sometimes they aren't. A couple other boards i read have more new people so there aren't as many telling you straight posts so to speak. here there is a great deal of experience and information and experts who genuinely deserve the title. When i first came here i kept goldfish, now i don't cos i simply didn't have the room. i learnt that from here - but no one has ever been really mean to me.

I haven't been here lately cos i dont feel it is that friendly. I am sure it will come back though, the membership changes people spend more or less time on the boards. i do think it would help if new people read the information on the site about the basics, and used the compatabilty suggestions before asking questions that have been asked a thousand times before. or if experts directed people to the information. i know i came here from the hospital forum and didn't look at the rest of the site!other that i don't know how you could enforce guidelines? newbies already have that long list of info to provide in the hospital forum and that gets ignored a fair bit!

I don't envy the mods thats for sure.

GFG



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Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

What is more important? Making sure newbies have the facts or making sure they won't be offended by them? I think that's an individual thing that we all need to decide for ourselves but I know what my answer is.

Can it not be both tho Tryst?

Telling them the facts is great, but if you offend them in the process, you only get the one shot, and even then they aren't that receptive.

don't sugar-coat it, but do be understanding about it. They are excited, the LFS guy has said go for it, and we have to be the pin that pops that merry little balloon! you can understand why we get so jaded and why they dont like our responses.

I don't know, i know how i was treated when i came here, but the feel has changed now, as have most of the members. There is a different atmosphere.

I don't even know what the goal is.

If it is to educate fishkeepers, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

If it is to discuss advanced topics, we are sadly lacking in topics and discussion.

If it is a social group, why do we bother with the fish?

If it is fish rights, again, honey people!


I know a lot of you are feeling disheartened. does this need to be addressed, and if it is, and ideas are pt forward, would you be willing to put in some serious effort to try to bring FP back from the brink?


We need our old comfy feel back, and that needs to be across the board, not just with newbies.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Uh huh, and since you know us all so well you would know.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Reported posts are a priority to all of the moderators.

hmmmmm *pulls my skeptical face* When the mdoeration team clearly agrees with inflammatory opinions posted on threads, then reporting posts loses it's effect.....

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I like to think that whoever designed marine life was thinking of it as basically an entertainment medium. That would explain some of the things down there, some of the unearthly biological contraptions

ACIDRAIN

I was a trade teacher not an English teacher. My hands were my trade not my spellen.

This is what we need a correction comment with some fun in it. OR a spell checker.

Keith



Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Another thing, is to do things in a fun way as well. Just like I am going to correct that retired teacher above me, lol. As I am an RN I have patients all the time in my job. But what I think kiethgh is trying to say is "patience", not patients. roflmao. I just have to laugh at that one, as I do it all the time, as when documenting I use the word patient a hundred times a day, lol.

And see how that was taken into a comical way. And not a condensending way. This is a hobby, and hobbys are meant to be enjoyable and fun. So lets have fun!

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There is always a bigger fish...

I don't usually get involved with type of topic for many personal reasons.

Has any one mentioned here we were all beginners once.

In latter years infomation is very easy to obtain. Certainly not when I started 30+ years ago. You had to locate a Aquarium/s that were prepared to assist you and not just sell, sell as many did and still do today. Books were hard to obtain and most of the books were European orientated and just out of this world with their tank concepts.

I try to be helpful where ever possible (being a retired teacher) I think I have more patience than most as you are used to trying to get through to students who know every thing about everthing except life. Some young newbees today want the answer yesterday and if not sooner and rearly a please or thank you. Saying that there are a few young members who are the totally opposite, patient, polite, and well mannered. I will not say any more along those lines, but many should be able to read between the lines.

Some times it gets very hard to get through to a beginner when they are so fixed in their ideas.

I will never comment on a topic if I am not 100% sure of my answer but I will often comment where they can get that info or who to contact.

Well that my two cents worth.

PS I have corrected the spellen
Keith

Last edited by keithgh at 03-Jan-2005 21:30

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Fallout Said "Good man. Just be polite.. if you have nothing good to say, don't say it..."

I can think of at least one person here who indeed needs to follow this advice. Running into said person on a thread, where they offer nothing but hatefull words does myself no good, and it CERTAINLY doesn't do a newbie any good.

If we as regulars, are not here to help others, and to learn, then what in the world ARE we here for?

There is no happy medium for this sort of problem, if you try to do anything about it, then some people are going to view those people as facist jerks.
But if we don't do anything about a problem post, then some people are going to question why it's acceptable to be a arrogent meany to others.

Simply put, there isn't much we can do about this. I've seen people try, and it always upsets at least one crowd, and then things just go downhill from there.
Be your best, be nice, and share your knowledge. Rest assured, that the kind posters out there, also know who the other good members are.

Last edited by AngelZoo at 02-Jan-2005 21:33

We need to put our heads together and come up with a plan on how to break it to newbies that their tank is horribly overstocked... Right now everyones got their own way... Personally I like telling them... Then explaining why... Then yelling like a banshee. But there has to be a better way... Perhaps we could come up with a step by step guide to dealing with them.... I don't know... It just seems a little chaotic now... We're scaring them off left and right...

do you realise that if every post that needed to be reported because of rude posts, you would need to quadruple the mod force and then some?

Report Posts please! If there are not enough of us to keep up the team can easily be expanded. The first thing I deal with is the things in my mailbox. Reported posts are a priority to all of the moderators.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

No you wouldn't. The mod could just delete the post. You might need to add a new reason, instead of flame/troll or pointless it should be RUDE. After their posts got deleted a few times they'd clean up their act.

Mike

Its all good and well for us to decide on a way to handle newbies, but if they dont want to listen we are wasting our time no matter what sort of show we put on.

I do think though that some people need to relax a little. Yelling at a newbie that has for example 3 cories, none of the same species, 1 clown loach and 2 bala sharks in a 20g is not necessary. These people are excited that they have fish and want to share it with people. Its up to us to tackle the subject and educate them best we can without scaring them away.

If I come across someone that hasnt received any help on the forums or someone in the chatroom I tell them what I think and leave it up to them to decide. Thats all you can do really. I also think that you can guage which ones are eager to learn more and its those that I spend most of my time helping.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

do you realise that if every post that needed to be reported because of rude posts, you would need to quadruple the mod force and then some?