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I'm starting to get a handle on this thanks to you guys!

75 gallon - 2 weeks old
Biowheel canopy 600w w/ T5 lighting
No heater - 72 deg F
pH - 7.2
Ammonia - 2.5 ppm
Nitrate - 60 ppm
6 plants
2 large roots - 10 lb ea
1 large rock - 20 lb
1" deep large size gravel taken from my 29
4 Native fish - all approx 5" (they like neutral pH and ~70 deg F)
Chemicals:
Tetra aquasafe - chlorine,chloramine for regular water changes
Aqueon ammonia neutralizer- ammonia, nitrite,chlorine, chloramine. Bought this after finding ammonia in my tap and tank
Seachem acid buffer and pH reducer - I have hard water. One of the few variables I have under control now
Tests: api - ph, nitrate, ammonia

First of all, about my 29. Major OTS case. Guilty of topping off. I generally understock and rarely cleaned but I've had success with the tank. I kept 3 of my fish in this tank for the last couple of months. Amazing they lived. Never checked water quality. They are very hardy.

I bought my 75 two weeks ago and filled with tap water. I let it sit for a few days while it warmed up to room temp. the T5 lights keep it about 2 deg warmer than room temp I found out. I took about half of the water from my 29 and half of the gravel and put it in the 75 along with 1 fish and a few feeders. I used a small package of biospira but other than that absolutely no other treatment . After a week, all seemed well so I purchased the rock, roots, plants and a catfish. I thought that between the biospira, old gravel and water, and the 600 gph biowheel, I was safe. All 4 fish are in the tank at this point and I still had not tested, de-chlorinated or anything else. I started getting curious about the pH. It is really all I was ever concerned with in previous tanks. Keep the pH up and let nature do the rest was always my philosophy.

My pH was well above the range of the test kit I purchased - 7.6+. The fish all appeared healthy so I started researching before reacting which is how I found this site. I spent a couple of days adjusting the pH to neutral with the acid buffer. Success. By then I had read countless posts here about water quality and realized that I had made some potentially fatal mistakes . I added the Tetra Aquasafe and found 4 ppm ammonia and 160 ppm Nitrate. I have been doing 30% water changes daily using the Aqueon conditioner and the levels have dropped. I think I'm now on the right track and will continue frequent changes with light feeding.

Now for my questions:

After reading other posts, it sounds like nitrate is potentially coming from a source other than the ammonia cycle. The plants are all healthy - no decay. I brought two small pieces of wood from my 29 that are several years old. The rock I purchased from my LFS had stuff growing on it - a type of moss I guess. I soaked the root and rock in a weak bleach solution overnight. I scrubbed them and soaked in tap water for an additional night before putting them in the tank. I couldn't get all of the moss off but I didn't think there would be enough remaining to cause harm. I plan to remove and boil the rock in my turkey fryer to get all of it off. I really like the rock and they said it was safe in freshwater.

Is it safe to assume that the cold water and initial presence of chlorine will prolong the cycling process?

Are any of the chemicals I am using going to give false test results? I read of this happening with other ammonia neutralizers.

My water tests 1.0 ppm Ammonia straight from the tap. Is this something I need to address or will the tank handle it once it cycles? Would it be wise to use a conditioner that treats ammonia for regular water changes? Will plants be enough to take care of the additional nitrate produced?

Is there a need for me to purchase a nitrite test kit? I don't plan to add any more fish. I'm just doing 30% water changes atleast every other day until the ammonia is gone and I have the nitrates figured out.

Hope this experience helps others. I've had atleast 1 tank setup for the last 15+ years and I learned more in the past week than I ever knew. Thanks!

Hi,
First, the rock. I'd leave it alone and allow the plants
that are attached to grow. Folks spend months and months
trying to get plants to attach themselves to rocks and
driftwood. If they are truly plants, (probably a fern
or more likely a moss) and not algae you should leave the
rock alone and enjoy the "look."
Plants that attach to rocks and driftwood get
their nutrients through the roots and leaves.
In other words, they will be drawing the nutrients directly
from the water and will help in maintaining the water.

Second, the water temp and chlorine.
Tanks will season (Cycle) faster in more tropical
temperatures than in cold water for native fish. Chlorine
will leave (degas) the tank over a period of hours, especially
if the water is aerated and circulating. It is the
Chloramine that is the problem. It will not disburse and
will remain in the water. That is why we use water
conditioners to neutralize the chlorine/ammonia compound.
Many of the conditioners will simply change the ammonia
compound to one that is not harmful to fish. In doing that
it still registers as ammonia and more times than not, will
indicate the presence of harmful ammonia when it does not
exist. Read the information on the conditioner. If it does
read both types of ammonia, there will be a caution that
says it will affect any tests for ammonia by giving
increased readings.

Many of us have ammonia in the tap water. It is nothing
to worry about and the bacteria that supports the Nitrogen
Cycle will multiply to take care of the input from the
water supply. The plants will not use ammonia. They use the
end products of the break down of the organic compounds
that result from the output of the Nitrogen Cycle and any
excess food, fish "poop" and any dying plant matter.

Third, The Nitrite test kit.
The Bacteria that supports the Nitrogen Cycle converts
the ammonia (fish urea) to nitrite and other bacteria
converts the nitrite to nitrate. I can't honestly say
that Yes, you need the nitrite test kit - but, you should
be able to account for what is going on in the gap
between an ammonia reading of 2.5 and a nitrate reading of
160.

Nitrate readings should be maintained below 40.
At readings of 40 the indications are that the tank is not
being properly maintained. Water changes are not being
made regularly and the gravel is not being cleaned.
With each water change of 10-20%, a section of gravel
should be cleaned right down to the bottom glass or the
UGF filter plate. I use the Python Brand aquarium siphon
to drain/fill the tank and at the same time I drain the
tank, I clean the gravel with the siphon head.
Mentally divide the non-planted space of the tank
into four sections and with each water change, clean
a section. That way, over a month, the entire tank
has been cleaned, leaving enough time in between
cleanings for the bacteria in the cleaned section
to recover.

Water changes, filter cleanings, and gravel cleanings
should be done weekly with a normal bio-load.

Nitrate readings of 100 or more indicate a tank in serious
condition and maintenance should be started immediately.

Hope this answers your questions...
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks for the input. The growth on the rock us more like a fungus and it actually is deveolping a visible slime coat that I am concerned with. I have seen this on rock that you can purchase for landscaping. I am going to remove it this weekend.

I just realized a possible source of nitrate. I had hornwort in my 29. The light on that tank was very old and I think the shock of moving it to the bright new T5s killed it. I am still finding pieces of it when I clean the gravel.

I'm going to "kill" the rock and continue frequent water changes until it stabilizes.

Edit - Just talked to my landscaper. The rock is covered with Lichens.

Hi,
My bad... I cannot believe your LFS sold you a rock
with lichen on it. I assumed that you got it from
out of one of his tanks, not out of box of rocks.
Yes, do clean it off.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I have seen rocks covered with many mysterious growths and bird droppings etc sold at LFS BUT these are usually for reptiles etc. Either you LFS has no idea or one just slipped through.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Just an update...

I boiled the rock in my turkey fryer for 30 min and it did the trick. Lichen is 99% gone after going over it with a wire brush.

Current tank conditions:

pH 7.2
ammonia .25
nitrite 2.0
nitrate 30
phospate .03

Will nitrites be detectable after the tank has cycled?

I was starting to see considerable algae with slightly green water. What level of phosphate do you want to control algae? The test kit says readings may be unreliable with high carbonate hardness. I don't have a test for that. I verified that my carbon and acid buffer don't contain phosphates, reduced photo period to 10 hrs, increased the number of plants, put phosphate reducing floss in my filter, bought a few mystery snails and it is clearing up.

Got my 29 back under control as well

Edit - I think I found my answers. Nitrites will follow the ammonia trend and drop to zero. Phosphates should be kept under 1.0. Risk of algae bloom with phosphate levels over 2.0. Looks like my maintenance schedule is keeping it low.

28 days into cycling my coldwater 75 and it's slow going. I'm really starting to appreciate why you should wait until the cycle is complete to start loading it. Water changes aren't always enough.

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 3.0
Nitrate 30

Still doing frequent water changes to minimize stress on my fish. My channel cat is showing some Ick spots. Nitrite levels and the pest green sunfish have most likely caused his distress. I moved the sunfish back to my 29 and I got some Ick medication for fish w/o scales and pulled the carbon. Nitrite levels continued to rise as I started treatment and went several days without a water change. My bluegill started showing signs of stress and flicking today. I decided to continue to do water changes and medicate for Ick. I know it makes the treatment less effective but the catfish was improving while the others were starting to show the effects of the high nitrite levels. I changed 30% and the bluegill is happy this eve. Now I notice that the Ick medicine should not be used with snails. Sigh. Nothing near death but I'm juggling several variables while waiting for the tank to finish cycling.

Thought I'd continue posting my progress as an example of what can go wrong when you aren't patient...

Actually, the problem is that I bought my 75 too late in the fishing season!

Not trying to bump this thread but I found some new info regarding the temperature of my "cold water" fish. They are probably best off closer to 70 deg in an aquarium for the long haul but I am going to increase the temp over the next few days to speed the cycle and treat Ick until everything is under control (Ick appears to be under control already). I am changing 30% daily to keep nitrites around 2.0 ppm. Ammonia: 0, Nitrates: 30, pH: 7.0, temp: 73 F. Still feeding lightly every other day.

According to the state of Mass:
http://www.mass.gov/czm/wpcomfsh.htm

Bluegill - "81° F is optimal for growth of adults."

Channel catfish - "Optimal temperature for maximum growth of channel catfish is 85° F."

Largemouth bass - "Optimal temperature for growth of largemouth bass is between 75 and 86° F."

Hi,
From your comments the Nitrate seems to be holding
around 30 with frequent water changes. Are you also
vacuuming a different section of gravel with each
weekly change?

That was a very interesting site, with good information
on your native fish. So, with a cooler, and an air-stone
going and a spray bar on your filter you should be all set.
Just outta curiosity, how long do you plan on keeping them.
I figure the channel cat and the large mouth bass
could soon out grow that tank.
Are you going to turn them loose at that point and start
anew?

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I frequently fish a lake that is overpopulated with bluegill and crappie. You can catch hundreds per day without even trying. You are supposed to kill them even if you do not plan to eat them. I personally don't like to do that but the most environmentally friendly way to correct the situation is to fish them out. I figure since 5% of all fish caught end up dieing, I'm unintentionally doing my small part Anyway, I have a 70 gallon pond with a small waterfall and hardy aquatic plants with no necessary maintenance. I decided to try a small green sunfish to deal with mosquitos and leaches. In Oct after about 6 months, I pulled him out and he had doubled in size. Still alive, I threw him in my 29 that had not had any fish in it for many months. He looked lonely so I brought a couple more friends home for him. I decided to get a 75 and do it right.

To answer your question, I will release all but 1 bluegill this spring when the waters warm up. The original sunfish is overly aggressive. Blue gills and pumpkinseeds don't get very large and are quite attractive. I plan to have 3-4 of them and a cold water pleco.

I'm going to try not using a cooler or any of the other items at first. I've kept these fish before in my 29 with nothing but a small HOB filter and had good luck.

I'm still changing 30% water atleast every 24-48 hrs to control the nitrite. I can easily reach about 50% of the gravel with the canopy top on. Currently, I clean about half that gravel on week 1 and the 2nd half on week 2. On week 3, I remove the top, clean the back glass and get the hard to reach gravel. With a 600 gph biowheel, I am sure this is acceptable. I am using 1" river rock and 1/4" gravel only about 1" deep so there should be plenty of aeration in the gravel.

Hi,
Don't worry about "bumping" the thread. We all can learn
from your questions and statements.
Blue Gills and Pumpkin Seeds are really colorful fish
and would make a great North American tank. I mentioned
the chiller as I thought those fish preferred well
oxygenated water with a temperature in the upper 60s
and low 70s.

My only concern from what you mention, again pertains to
what is to me, higher than should be nitrate readings.
The gravel you have in the tank, with the size of the fish
and their feeding habits, could easily allow the detritus
to work its way down into the spaces between the grains
where it will break down. The outcome of which would be
high nitrate readings and a build up of bacteria
and organic wastes.
With normal size gravel and fish that size, even with
their feeding habits, the detritus would stay on the
surface of the gravel to easily vacuumed up and eliminated.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

And I thought the larger gravel would be easier to keep clean. I'll try smaller if I have problems. Thanks.

Gave up the Ick meds because I cant go more than two days without a water change or the nitrites shoot up. I'm trying the high temp method to deal with Ick (86 F). Should speed up the cycle as well. It has spread to the bass.

Tonight I cleaned the back glass and decided to take a few pix. I included a pic of the rock when it had Lichen on it. You can see the slime it was growing. FYI, the nitrates have been under 40 since I removed the Lichen. Look at the crazy shoot/leaf my banana plant sent up this week.

http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u305/Krash7172/Aquarium/

Don't trust the temp indicator on your heater! I almost made fish soup. It's tough to monitor a large tank that only heats up at about .5 deg per hour. So make small adjustments to the heater and wait for the tank to stabilize. The fish are still doing well and the tank is now stable at 86-87 F. I thought I'd share this regarding using temperature to kill Ick. I have all of next week off for the holidays so I may try increasing the heat to 89.5 F while I am home and can keep a close eye on the fish.


http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_ich2.php

With tropical fish, an increase in temperature to 30°C/86°F is usually very well-tolerated. Since this temperature prevents reproduction of Ich, it can theoretically cure the problem by itself. So the first step would be to increase the temperature slowly, 1°C/2°F per hour until the correct temperature is reached. This temperature should be maintained for 10 days, and then slowly returned to normal. Some fish can tolerate higher temperatures. If your fish are more heat tolerant, try increasing the temperature to 32°C/89.5°F for the first 3-4 days to kill the Ich. Then reduce temperature slowly to 30°C/86°F, and hold it there for an additional 6-7 days, or until a total of 10 days have passed. Gauge the heat tolerance of your fish by observing their reaction.

I also read that nitrification occurs most rapidly between 77 and 95F so there shouldn't be any fear of killing off the bio filter.

Another way to control Ick with heat. Not sure the fish would be too happy about this though.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_FA006

Temperature manipulation is also an effective way to control "Ich" in home aquariums. This technique is often not practical for commercial fish farms, but is advantageous for the hobbyist because expensive products do not have to be purchased and it is safer for some of the delicate species which are popular in community tanks. Water temperature can be gradually raised to 90°F, maintained there for 24 hours, and then gradually dropped to 70°F for 48 hours. The infective juveniles (tomites) will be killed while the water temperature is at 90°. When the temperature is dropped the adult organisms will fall off the fish and begin to reproduce. As the young begin to emerge 48 hours later, the temperature is again raised to 90°F, causing them to die. Repeating this process continuously (24 hours at 90° F followed by 48 hours at 70° F) for two weeks should control the disease. Cleaning the tank every second day will help remove cysts before they rupture and therefore help to prevent completion of the life cycle. If you decide to use temperature to control "Ich" in your home aquarium be sure that the type of fish in your tank can tolerate the temperature extremes involved.

Looks like I may be pulling out of this nose dive

I have a digital thermometer that records highs and lows. My 300w heater has kept the tank between 88.8 and 89.6 F for the last 24 hrs. It is set at the highest possible setting. I have checked it against two mercury thermometers. One was right on while the other was about 1.5 higher showing 91 F.

Now, the good news! All fish and snails are looking great. No visible signs of Ick at all but this does not mean the Ick isn't still lurking. Two fish had a hundred cysts or more last night. All cleared up when I got home from work today. My only concern is a slighly rapid breathing rate with my catfish but the heat may be enough to do that. He is active and finally has an appetite for the first time since I put him in the tank. All 3 fish are hungry but I can't give in until the tank cycles. Still feeding every other day. Rise in temp must get their metabolism going.

Plan is to stay at this temp for 2 more days. Then 1 week at 86. Drop to 80 and wait for the cycle to complete. Slowly fall to 72 F after I'm sure all is good.

It's a drag waiting on the cycle but I'm more optimistic today!

The obligatory paramaters:
pH 6.9
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 2.5
Nitrate 25

72 hrs at 90F and all is well. Decreasing to 86 for a week.

At the end of week 5, nitrites are still at 2.0.

Nitrates have fallen to 15 so it looks like I've eliminated the possible source.

I've found that I need to only use about 1/2 the acid buffer at 90F vs what I used at 72F. If I didn't have two tanks, I'd think something was going on but my 29 hasn't budged from 7.2. I've seen sites that claim temp can affect pH and others that say it can't. I'm putting my money on that it CAN. We are talking a difference of nearly 20F though.

It's a merry xmas (eve)!

Been about 36 hours since my last WC

Temp 86.1
pH 7.2
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0 !!!
Nitrate 10 !!!

No signs of Ick. Fish are happy (and hungry). Blue gill is attacking my vals. 4 more days at 86 and then drop back to 72 F. Then I'll start figuring out realistic feeding and maintenance schedules for this type of fish.

Looks like this thread is done. I think everything is under control now. Hopefully someone can learn from my experience (or lack of).

Thanks again to all of you who have contributed to this forum. My fish wouldn't be alive if it weren't you you!



Merry Xmas!

Hi Krash,
The numbers look good and from your comments
the fish verify them. I'm glad that things worked out
and I appreciate your running log. I hope you did not
think that you were talking to yourself, I know I read
each one, and I'm sure others have as well. As you say
I hope the others learned from your difficulty.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

As a final update, I'm glad to say all turned out well. I went 10 days w/o a WC. All fish & snails are doing fine. I posted regarding a smell but it is gone. Tank is clear and algae is minimal. The bluegill and largemouth are eating cichlid food now and I supplement with other high protein treats like krill. My chanel cat is eating carnivore pellets. Finally reached a point where both the fish and the owner are happy

Params before WC today:

Temp 74
pH 7.1
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20

Hi,
Congratulations!
From the looks of the water parameters, you have things
spot on and under control.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--