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Hey everyone!!

So I finally had a little time to day to do water tests and let me tell you I wasn't pleased with my results. So here's all the info I have to give.

Tank: 20 gall measurements 24"W X 12"D X 16"H

Light: Not sure the wattage I believe around 18 ( the light was to bright for my rainbowshark so I have foil over the light casing of the hood with holes cut out in various spots(not touching water))

Decor: 4 plastic plants and a cave

Aquarium hardware: Aqua clear 20
Top Fin 20 (I've had both a year and the flow rate is not as strong as it used to be(investing in new))
Marineland 100 watt heater

Aqua Clear- Has carbon,biomax,foam
Top Fin- carbon

Fish: 3 albino tiger barbs 1-1.5in
3 green tiger barbs 1-1.5in
1 rainbow shark 4-5in

Results: Fresh lab deluxe test kit
Nitrate- 10-20 (in between both colors)
Nitrite- 0.5
PH- 7.8
Chlorine- 0
Ammonia- 0-0.25 (in between colors)
Iron-0.2
General Hardness-10 drops which reads Medium hard
Carbonate Hardness-18+ which reads extremely hard
Co2- 10 drops which the recommended is 2 so its bad

Temperature:82*

Tank has been active since December 23, 2006, I've had my shark in since January and the 5 of the tiger barbs since February 8th and 1 since April 6th. The tank is located on a stand for tanks not near a window nor heater nor draft.

No real signs of problems on fish but they do scratch on rocks which I believe is called flashing. I am currently treating them with Mardel Maracide which could have an affect on the results but poor water conditions could have caused the problem. There is a water change on Wednesday which is done every week of 15-30%. Every month the 22nd-25th I do a 50% water change and remove all decor and wash down with water. I also clean out and change the carbon on the TopFin and carbon and what ever other media is to be changed that month with the aqua clear(the instructions tell you which to change each month)

That's basically everything. Any and all help to get my fish happier and healthier and swimming in better water will be most appreciated.

THANKS TO ALL,

tigermom

Thats a tricky one, (- nice thorough test results btw.)

Sounds to me like something is kicking in the filter bacteria and causing mini cycles. It could be the maracyn at the moment, but as you say there might have been something triggering it before then.

How do you treat and replace the water you put in that tank, and how much of the filter media do you swop out when you do a clean? If too much media is changed the bacterial colony will be insufficient in size to cope with the task at hand for many days in the month. I never swap out more than 30% of the media at any given time.

If the filter is too reliant on carbon, maybe you could try putting some longer lasting sponge or active media in it instead?

Its a pretty obvious thing to say I know, but is there any chance your overfeeding or blocking the filter with foods?

My first thought was that the big cleaning day of 50% on the 22nd-25th may be too much cleaning. I think this is what Longhairedgit is getting at. You said you remove the decor and wash it down and change out the carbon filters. Try this. With your 50% water change remove half the decor and clean it and only change one filter. A week later change out the other filter and clean the other half of decor. I think you are simply killing off too much bacteria with the big monthly clean. Doing a little more cleaning with each water change may do the trick too. I don't know, what do you think? I may be way off base as I do not know how in depth your cleaning of the decor and filters is.

"Talk is cheap. Action can be almost as affordable"

Hi tigermom...Welcome to FP
As someone who is still learning the ropes, I can give you a noobies point of view.I've had my 42gal tank running for about the same time & I managed to kill all my bacteria in the tank about 6 weeks ago by being too clean. I was only doing a 25% WC every 2 weeks but I was cleaning the filter pads,decor & gravel as well at the same time. I too had to go thru a recycle period. That's done now, my water parameters are all good & all the fishies are well.
I've learnt so much on FP in the last 3 or 4 months...whatever the LFS tells me to do I take with a grain of salt then check with all the very clever people we have on the forums. Good Luck

"if you're goin swimmin,watch out for the noahs"

Okay I finally have time to reply.

Over feeding is a definite possibility, I didn't even realize it until my friend asked me if I was really suppose to feed the fish THAT much. I'm trying to feed less but I guess to me I see it as very little food when really to the fish its like a buffet.

I also took my filters apart and cleaned all the gunk clogging them which could also be a factor. I kept all the same media though, the flow rate is extremely better.

With water changes I really try my best to get every thing I can until it hit my 15-30% mark. I'm in every little corner trying to get as much as I can which I think I do this because I see all the junk coming up which is my fault because I'm feeding to much which makes a lot of food and waste at each water change.

I'm starting to think that overfeeding is a big factor in my problem. And these huge water changes which is starting everything over.

longhairedgit this is my process:

I first use the blue scrapers and rub down the walls of the tank, than I take my python siphon and siphon out as much stuff I see, which includes digging through the rock and siphoning all the way from the bottom (which may be to much)all throughout the tank without really moving to much of the decor. I than take a bucket and fill it with the shower water and treat it with Top Fin water conditioner or aqua plus (which ever I grab) sometimes a little of both(Bad to do??), Top fin Bacteria supplement, and Api Stress coat. Swirl it around then dump it in. Its usually 2.5 to 3 buckets.

For media:

The Top Fin carbon filter, I throw the old one away and put in a completely new carbon filter.

The aqua clear schedule is to change the foam every two months, the carbon every month and bio max every three months. That's what the directions say but it may be too much since I also have the Top Fin filter.

Kunzman96 I'm defiantly going to use the half and half idea that can make a real difference.

Ace thanks for the input you've shown me there's really light at the end of the tunnel.

Is the way I do water treatments wrong, should I be siphoning out less?
Am I treating the water right?
Is only 1-2 pinches of food really sufficient and would it be better if I feed them every other day instead of everyday?

Thanks you all for you quick responses and sorry its taken me so long to reply.

Tigermom

Hi,
Well you are on the right track, and probably just over
doing it a bit.

Definitely do cut back on the fish food. Remember a fish's
stomach is about the size of its eye. And, anything that
hits the bottom is waste.

When cleaning the tank with the siphon, you seem to be
overdoing it as well. Most of the bacteria that supports
the Nitrogen Cycle lives on the surfaces of every grain of
gravel. To preserve the bulk of the colonies, you should
try mentally dividing your non-planted portions of the tank
into four sections, and with each 15-20% water change,
vacuum a different section. This way, over a month, you
have cleaned the tank completely but allowed the bacteria
time to regrow between cleanings.
Keep vacuuming the gravel as you are straight down to the
glass bottom, just do it by sections.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I agree with everyone, I think you're just overdoing it causing mini cycles. only vacuum about a quarter to a third of the gravel at a time. move the decor when it gets in the way, you can just move it over then move it back when you are done. No real need to scrub all the decor. If the need strikes do half at a time. Definitely cut back on the feedings. only put what they can eat within 3-5 minutes once a day. You may want to consider what you're conditioning the water with as well. If memory serves stress coat conditions the water, removing the chlorine. I'd read what all they are and what they do to see if you can eliminate something. I think you're double dosing with water conditioner and stress coat. Also instead of changing the foam just swish them around in used tank water and put them back in. or replace one and clean the other. I know the instructions say replace it but it's un necessary and I think they're just trying to sell more foam. What size filters are they. the top fin is a fine filter on its own, I have both. I like the top fin cause I think it cleans the water better but I also like the customizability of the ac. run two foams and a fine floss material plus the zeo lite I think its called.

Mom,

I love someone who digs in and cleans! At least you are not soaking everything in bleach!

Let me be the contrary voice, not totally contrary, just in terms of your cleaning. I love your water changes, your cleaning schedule and your cleaning routine. I doubt that you can remove enough bacteria with your magic vacuum to upset the bio-filter.

However, STEP AWAY FROM THE FISH FOOD! I just went on vacation for a week. I did your cleaning routine on a bare bottom 125 gallon tank with 22 discus of various sizes. I did a 75% water change for two consecutive days before I left. They also stopped getting food two days before I left! That's right - no munchies for 9 days.

My neighbor who also has discus said he would peek in and feed them. I gave him permission to peek in but strict instructions not to feed the begging little buggers. No problems with the fish after no food for 9 days... but they were happy to see me.

A good rule of thumb is feeding the fish just enough food that they consume it all within a few minutes. In a tank with gravel and no significant bottom feeders, I think that should mean that if food hits the bottom that you have overfed your fish. This is particularly true if you have tiger barbs or a RT shark. Oh and choose not to feed them on Mondays and Fridays, it is a good routine to follow.




__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Tigermom

I was doing a very similar thing to what you are doing. I too have 2 filters in my setup and it works very well. Here is my cleaning in schedule that i have moved to. I hope this helps

Week 1 - Change 10% water, Vacum front left side of tank.
Week 2 - Change 10% water, Vacum back left side of tank, Clean AQ 110 Filter
Week 3 - Change 10% Water, Vacum front right tank
Week 4 - Change 10% water, Vacum back right, Clean Fluval interal Filter.

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Thanks everyone so much for all you replies. I had time to come on and read a few days ago so I got all your input earlier. To day would qualify as a big water change day but I decided to skip this one and now I am going to do the four divide of the tank (thank you for your suggestions fishmonster and frank) this is a great idea that I never would have thought of doing. Until my parameters are in order I'm gonna keep this up and may continue this way. You all have been so helpful.

As for the food I have really been trying my best to feed less and surprisingly enough I have been succeeding. I have been feeding every other day and have been using the suggestion I got on another thread with 1 feeding a day or 3 small feeds equaling the one. They seem to have more energy not being weighed down with all the food in their belly. The frozen blood worms are still a challenge not giving to much but its better.

Again thank you all for all your in put and I'll be sure to update you on the progress of my fish and tank!

always

tigermom

Just wanted to add that i just did my water change and did the divide, only cleaning one portion. Had a another question though to be sure. When i treat the water and the label says the dosage is to treat each 10 U.S. gallons with 10 ml. That means to treat the water im putting in and not treat all the water overall with 20 ml because i have a 20 gallon tank right?


(sorry i accidently deleted the other)

Depends on the product. The following are the directions for Prime:

DIRECTIONS: Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. For smaller doses, please note each cap thread is approx. 1 mL). This removes approximately 0.8 mg/L ammonia, 1.2 mg/L chloramine, or 3.3 mg/L chlorine. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.

Note that you treat for the entire aquarium volume if you add the product directly to the aquarium. However, if you add the product to a container of water that you are going to pour into the aquarium then treat only the container volume.

It is interesting to see that you need 1 ml of your product to treat 1 gallon of water where 1 ml of Prime treats 10 gallons of water.



__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright