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I have a 72G tank that I am prepping for African Cichlids. I added some rock formations to the tank 2 days ago, and checked the pH - came back between 6.5-7.0. According to the specs for the fish I want, I need a pH around 8.0.

I figured the rocks would raise the pH, but I am not sure how long I need to wait for the rocks to affect the pH of the tank?

If the rocks do not raise the pH considerably, what other solutions can I implement?(apart from chemicals, I want to establish this without them, so its stable)

I should mention that I do have a piece of driftwood, which was in the tank before the rocks - so it probably softened the water a bit.

Advice?

72G Bowfront. 1 Sunshine Peacock, 2 Yellow Labs, 1 Ps. Elongatus, 1 Blue Ahli, 1 Red Kadanga, 1 Mel. Exasperatus, 1 metriaclima emmiltos, 1 Ancistrus.

14.5G 4 Neon Tetras.

You can up the ph with a little bicarb or some shop purchased ph balancers, but to be honest the rocks probably arent leaching much carbonate hardness into the water or raising the ph as yet because there isnt fish in there and the byproduct co2 and hydrogen sulphide of bacterial decomposition isnt etching the rocks as yet. Might find that once the fish go in the ph goes up after a couple of weeks. As long as theres quite a few limestones in there, high ph and hardness will win out in the end. Often acids have to be produced before minerals are released from the rocks.

So would it be safe to start introducing some cichlids to the tank?

Or should I introduce another species first (I was planning on getting a Sydonitis Multipunctatus)?

I also have no idea what kind of rock is in my tank....I found them in the woodlot near my house. (I boiled them down, and scrubbed 'em up).



72G Bowfront. 1 Sunshine Peacock, 2 Yellow Labs, 1 Ps. Elongatus, 1 Blue Ahli, 1 Red Kadanga, 1 Mel. Exasperatus, 1 metriaclima emmiltos, 1 Ancistrus.

14.5G 4 Neon Tetras.

I also have no idea what kind of rock is in my tank....I found them in the woodlot near my house. (I boiled them down, and scrubbed 'em up).

Best way to test if they'll up your pH and hardness is the vinegar test. Scratch the rock and put a few drops of vinegar on it. If it fizzes, there's carbonates in the rocks and they'll increase pH and hardness. If it doesn't fizz, it's probably inert.

Hi,
It sounds like you are going to be keeping African Rift
Fish. They, or any other fish that require a high pH,
should use gravel that is a crushed carbonate - NOT
regular aquarium gravel.
Use crushed limestone, crushed dolomite, or
crushed coral. Use crushed coral as your last choice.
It's expensive, and is only Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3).
You will also need the other minerals such as
Magnesium and others that are found in Limestones
and Dolomites for good fish and plant health.

You can also mix the substrate with crushed oyster shells
that you can get from any feed & seed store for a
unique looking substrate.

Do not use any regular aquarium gravel, use only the
crushed stuff at 100%.

For caves or rock hard scape, use any carbonate rock
Such as limestone, or dolomite (they are the most
plentiful and least expensive).

Massive water changes will lower the pH while the
carbonates work on the water but in a day or so the tank
should be back to, and holding at, a good pH of 8.
Small changes such as 10% should have little or no effect
on the pH.

You can pick up this stuff from any large LFS, though that
would be expensive, or you can get it from any landscaper
that sells rocks, or from a large Hardware store with a
good lawn/garden section.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks Frank....most helpful.

I used flourite for my substrate, I will have to look up the chem. composition to see if it is a Carbonate.

I'm gonna try these suggestions out and post the results, undoubtedly I will have more questions and I want to get them resolved before I stock the tank.




72G Bowfront. 1 Sunshine Peacock, 2 Yellow Labs, 1 Ps. Elongatus, 1 Blue Ahli, 1 Red Kadanga, 1 Mel. Exasperatus, 1 metriaclima emmiltos, 1 Ancistrus.

14.5G 4 Neon Tetras.

No, flourite isn't a carbonate. It's actually a clay mixture of minerals that are beneficial for plants. It should have a negligible effect on pH.

You can do the tank with flourite(kinda pointless since most cichlids destroy plants) but the rocks may or may not be enough so you will probably end up either mixing something into the water or adding crushed coral. You can place crushed coral in your filter or hang it in front of the filter but it will need to be changed regularly. There are also lots of mixes of powdered minerals out there to create the correct water conditions for hardwater cichlids. You can make your own mix if your interested in doing so: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/buffer_recipe.php but if you don't have much experience altering water parameters your probably better off buying an already made mix. I've used several of seachem's products to buffer and add minerals back into RO water with good results. http://seachem.com/products/cichlids.html

You can place the crushed coral and or shell grit in the toe of a panty hose and place it in the filter or hide it in the tank. By doing this method you can add or decrease the amount as required also it is easy to top up as it will break down over a period of time.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

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Hi,
Flourite is an ancient (millions of years old),
iron rich, fractionated, clay. There are no carbonates
in it and it will not raise your pH. You will need to
move it to another tank for other fish.

The thing is with those fish you need to "lock" your pH
in the 8.xx range and keep it there. Stuff in a sock
or chemicals will not keep the pH where you want it and,
in the case of chemicals, it is expensive. It would be
kinda like having a salt water tank in that you would have
to mix up a fresh batch of water for each water change.
And, as the tank matures, the organic waste products form
organic acids that will lower your tank's pH "eating up"
the chemicals that you would be adding.

You will need to use crushed limestone, or crushed
dolomite as the substrate along with limestone or dolomite
rocks to bring your pH into the 8.xx range and hold it
there despite what goes on in the tank.

You arn't just trying to move the pH a point or two and
can monitor it constantly, you want to know that the pH
will always be at 8.xx. Don't scrimp, or try make shift
solutions. Change out the substrate and succeed.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks everyone for the advice.

Frank...as much as I don't like what it entails - you're right. I have to get rid of the flourite - fun, fun, fun .

I fully understand your point. I want my pH to be something that is stable, so that I don't have to constantly tinker with the chems, or additives to obtain the right level - that seems like a lot of work over the life of the tank vs a litte extra work up front that'll save me headaches later.

Boy am I glad I did not stock the tank

Anybody need flourite?

72G Bowfront. 1 Sunshine Peacock, 2 Yellow Labs, 1 Ps. Elongatus, 1 Blue Ahli, 1 Red Kadanga, 1 Mel. Exasperatus, 1 metriaclima emmiltos, 1 Ancistrus.

14.5G 4 Neon Tetras.

Just to update:

I was able to drive my pH up by simply adding my rock formations (limestone).

THANKFULLY - I did not have to change the substrate. I added a few yellow labs and they seem to be quite comfortable.

My pH has been steadily climbing for 1 week now with the additions of the rocks, and I think it'll peak out at about 8.0 - 8.5. If need be, I'll lay down a layer of limestone substrate over my flourite, to push the pH over the top.

Now the question of stocking.....?

72G Bowfront. 1 Sunshine Peacock, 2 Yellow Labs, 1 Ps. Elongatus, 1 Blue Ahli, 1 Red Kadanga, 1 Mel. Exasperatus, 1 metriaclima emmiltos, 1 Ancistrus.

14.5G 4 Neon Tetras.

Hi,
The rocks will do it. However, if you do a large water
change, then the pH will drop for a bit till the rocks can
counteract the new water. The more carbonates that you can
add, the better. I don't think you need to go so far as
to cap the flourite. That could lead to problems with
anaerobic bacteria and their toxic output.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Limestone rocks don't break down very fast as shown by the fact it took a week for the ph to go up and it's still not done. It will stop at least at 7.8 and probably closer to 8.0. The rocks break down slower as the ph gets higher so it won't go up as fast soon. You may find as more acids are produced in the tank that even small water changes become tricky unless you buffer the water before adding it to the tank.

If you add something to the flourite make sure it is of similar size so that it can be handled the same. For example you can't gravel vac sand the same as gravel so if you add something fine grain you will either suck it all out or not get the substrate clean. You also need to stir the substrate so expect both to get mixed together completely. You can't have a layer of one on top of the other. layered substrates are a disaster unless you follow specific setup and handling.

Thanks Frank and Sham.

You've both given me something to think about. I am hopeful that my water changes don't dramatically alter my pH. based on experience, what kind of a drop am I looking at? 1-2 points?

What are the side effects to the fish if it does drop, and subsequently takes 1 week to get back to normal?

As for the layer of gravel, I am 90% sure I am not going that route, I still want to add some more rocks to the tank, as I am having a blast creating little nooks and crannies for the fish. Plus, I want to get some height on my formations, right now most of my rocks create caves and crevaces around 5-6 inches in height. So the upper portion of my tank has room for growth.

But that's another post!

72G Bowfront. 1 Sunshine Peacock, 2 Yellow Labs, 1 Ps. Elongatus, 1 Blue Ahli, 1 Red Kadanga, 1 Mel. Exasperatus, 1 metriaclima emmiltos, 1 Ancistrus.

14.5G 4 Neon Tetras.

Hi,
THE KEY to it is the "Surface Area" that is involved.
Believe it or not, the surface area of a "chunk" of
limestone, is much smaller than the surface area of crushed
limestone. The larger the surface area, the more influence
it will have on the water chemistries. That's the reason
granulated charcoal is used in filters instead of a chunk
of charcoal shaped for the filter basket.

If you stick with 10% and a max of 20% water changes once
a week, then the pH and hardness should not change that
much between changes. If you go larger, then chances are
that the water won't quite recover before the next change.

Removing the flourite and replacing it a little at a time
might work, but that is a time consuming job and one that
is actually better done all at once.
If you are not going to have plants in the tank or only
a few, you could consider "pockets" of flourite with
the plants in them, or even potted plants (actual
terra cotta flower pots).

But the key is the surface area.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

At a waterchange of 25% about .2ph change based on the results I've had with my water. It won't take a week to go back up only a day or 2. Really hardy fish won't care too much if that happens every 2 weeks but alot of fish will be stressed. Stress will weaken the immune system so they are more likely to come down with things like ich and bacterial infections. Frequent enough water changes like weekly or more could cause death. 10-20% changes might be fine most of the time but there are situations where you will need to change more. In that case it's better to already have an idea how much baking soda you need to add to buffer the water and easily raise the ph so if necessary you can do a large water change. Another option that is used alot especially on marine tanks would be to setup some plastic containers with a small water pump or powerhead and adjust the water in there. Line it with some crushed coral or limestone and let the water circulate for at least a day or 2 before using. I always have enough plastic storage containers around that I can hold at least half the volume of my largest tank when necessary. It's saved me from quite a few disasters.

Hi,
Unless you two are drawing water from the same source,
it is unrealistic to cite what a 25% water change does
to your pH and expect comparable results.

With a posted 6.5 to 7.0 pH and the desire to move the
pH into the 8's one has to take into account the KH
and GH of the water in question. Changing out
25% of the tank will make a change in the artificially
inflated pH of the tank, and depending upon the rock
surfaces, they could take a week or more to rebound and
the fish do not need that kind of yo-yo effect.

The quantity of water changed, and the interval, should
depend upon the bio-load of the tank. In any case,
smaller water changes will have a smaller effect on
the overall pH shift.
In this case, with the natural water being at a 6.5-7
pH, smaller water changes, on the order of 10%
(provided the tank is stocked lightly to normally)
should provide minimum swing in pH and not stress the fish.

If the substrate is a crushed carbonate (limestone,
dolomite, coral, or oyster shells) the water will recover
more quickly due to the larger surface area of the carbonate substrate.
All of the nooks and crannies of each grain is
exposed to the water and will leach into the water.
Of the choices, crushed dolomite is probably
the better. It contains carbonate, as well as Magnesium
and other elements that are not found in any quantity
in the others. Coral, for instance is nearly pure
Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) and will not provide the
"extra" minerals necessary for the health of the fish.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I live in an area of solid limestone. I can get it for free and all my water runs over it. I have done so many experiments with different source water including very soft water like bottled or RO and limestone filled tanks. Limestone buffering is fairly predictable. Not controllable since it just tops out near 8.0 no matter what you do but predictable. I don't need exact numbers to have an idea what's going to happen to the ph. If we are using water with low kh and doing water changes with low kh and a ph around 6.8-7.0 that is not just being lowered by co2 like my wellwater you will get a predictable result. After of course the limestone has raised the ph to it's maximum and not on a new tank still stabilizing. At 25% water change you get a ph change of around .2 give or take .1 or so but definitely lower than .5 and because limestone breaks down faster the lower the ph, the faster it will buffer the water so that irregardless of water parameters you almost always end up with the ph back where it was in about 2 days so long as we are still talking about 25% change and no more. Actually since the tank took a week to get to this point I'd say a 50% change would then take around 4-5days to buffer it back to the final ph and will lower it a little above 1/4th of the amount between the original ph and the final buffered ph. Rough numbers granted but not so far off that they aren't useful.

Also note different limestone does not always yield the exact same end ph. It will vary somewhere between 7.8-8.2. Rarely will it make 8.4 without other buffers added as well. With only limestone as a buffer on RO type water it doesn't generally surpass 7.8. Unless I use that really dense crumbly type of limestone but it makes poor rock stacks. Splits and cracks easy so the whole thing falls down while clouding the tank horribly. I don't think that type is ever sold for aquarium use but usually crushed and used to make bases for buildings or driveways. The lighter weight solid stuff is what I see in stores and it has less buffering capacity.

I like the idea of having pockets of flourite for the plants,s as I have noticed the plants thrive in it (as opposed to the gravel I have in my 15G tank..the plants don't root as well)- and I can fill in the rest with the dolomite or limestone.

I don't plan on heavily stocking my tank, as I said, I want to allow each species to establish a territory and exist in a 'neighborhood' - with the odd scuffle here and there. As such, I have only been doing 20-25% changes, and that has been overkill to this point since I have all of 11 fish (all under 2.5 inches).

I gather I could get away with 15% changes, just to keep the water crystal clear.

Once I add the dolomite/limestone, and do my next water change, I'll post the outcome - hopefully everything ends up right in the pocket and is stable.

Thanks guys...as always, VERY insightful!



72G Bowfront. 1 Sunshine Peacock, 2 Yellow Labs, 1 Ps. Elongatus, 1 Blue Ahli, 1 Red Kadanga, 1 Mel. Exasperatus, 1 metriaclima emmiltos, 1 Ancistrus.

14.5G 4 Neon Tetras.