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i run an established 40gal community tank, i test my water approx once a month on the last test my nitrates are nil the always used to run at 12/15pp i understand lack of nitrates may well be causing my outbreak of green slime algae along the substrate line, the tank is quite heavily planted and my fish stock is no where near its limit for the size of the tank i have also read using tropica plant nutrition + may help as it includes nitrates and phosphates although you have to find the right balance as to much will enhance any algae problems you already have
anyone have any thoughts on this problem

thanks for any help
papasan.

Hi,
My first guess would be to eliminate the obvious...
Take a water sample to a LFS and confirm your findings.
It could be a problem with your test kit.

In a heavily planted, lightly stocked, tank you can have
very low, to no nitrate readings. Generally, as you know,
it should be between 5 and 10. If you confirm that your
tank is running low, then you can add fertilizers to bring
it up. I'd be sure to use one that had 0 for phosphates
though.
The containers give three numbers always in this
order:
Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium:
For instance: 10-10-5
You should find one with a "0" for phosphorus as I
suspect your BGA is due to an abundance of phosphorus.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

thanks for your reply frank,at the moment i am using easy carbo and api leaf zone i also have a bottle of tropica plant nutrition + on order which includes potassium and nitrogen which apparantly can work as long as you get the right balance between plants and fish stock although (and i have opened a can o worms here)i use active carbon in my external filter so the question is: does active carbon affect/remove any metals ie iron or nutrients and if so does this leach back into the system when exhausted or does it just become another sponge to collect bacteria (a big bone of contention in the uk)
sorry for harping on Frank ( i am not the best typer )

i look forward to you thoughts

thanks papasan.

Frank has given you some excellent advice and I fully agree get a full water test done at you LFS also take a water supply sample with you.

What type of filtration system are you using?
You problem could be a feeding one as well.
What are you fish foods are you using, how often and certainly how much?
Carbon why????
Carbon can be used but only for a short time as it can and does start to release the nasties it has collected.
As far as I know Carbon does not remove plant foods but this does not mean it can not and does.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info
Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Hi,
Here is one of many interesting articles about the use
of Carbon in the aquarium:
http://www.fnzas.org.nz/articles/technical/filtration_3/

In summary, its normal life in a tank is about a month.
(I've read that it can be considerably less, but that
depends upon the "quality" of the water that it is
filtering.)

Carbon does leach back into the tank the adsorbed chemicals
once it is "saturated." It seems the "glue" that holds
these chemicals to the carbon "wears out" and the chemicals
can escape back into the circulating water.

The Carbon itself, releases Phosphates into the water.

Carbon adsorbs organic chemicals, and not elements such
as Iron.
(This is why it is not normally used in planted tanks
as it will adsorb much of the fertilizers. And, also why
it should ALWAYS be removed before and during the
medication a tank for some disease.)

You might be causing some of your own problem with all of
the treatments that you are using as Activated Carbon
actually releases Phosphates into the tank.
As in your original comments, an excess of which
will aid the formation and growth of BGA.

THE best way to simply add Nitrate to a tank without any
other complications or interactions, is to add stump
remover to the water. This is HNO3. One of the products
available here in the States is "Grant's Stump Remover."
Be sure to get the "straight" stump remover without any
"extra additives" to speed up the decaying process.

Unless you have some large bodied fish in the tank, the
truth is that you can hardly use the fish to provide what
is needed in the way of fertilizer by the plants.
It's a matter of "perspective." Do you want to create a
tank that is a lush green jungle, with just a few flashes
of color to add some movement, and "life" to the tank, or
do you want a tank full of movement against a lush green
background? It would take a large amount of really messy
eaters to affect a heavily planted tank. Most folks
stick with "tetra sized" fish or, in a 40G tank, less than
5 of the large bodied fish such as Discus. It's sort of
a self limiting process.

In a heavily planted tank, the use of fertilizers becomes
an imperative for a healthy, growing tank. What you use
is up to you, but you need to be careful as there is an
overlap in organic compounds when adding several different
ones all at once.
Sea-Chem Flourish products, properly used will work well.
Chat with Keith sometime as he uses them exclusively and
has had some lengthy discussions with them at the factory.

Purchasing the dry powder fertilizers, and mixing your
own tailored for your tank is another option. You can
purchase them premixed from several locations and are
used by folks who believe in the Estimated Index of Dosing
subscribed to Tom Barr.
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/62-estimative-index-dosing-no-need-test-kits.html

An excellent link to figure out how much of what to add:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm

Or, you can purchase a container of premixed compounds
in just the right ratios and then treat the tank using
just the right amount just for your tank. (Follow the
links on Tom's site for the source.)

Another good article on Aquarium Fertilization which
introduces the "PMDD" method:
http://www.algone.com/fertilizer.php

The Poor Man's Dosing Drops (PMDD) is the "lay persons"
way of managing the complex issue of what to add to the
tank and when. Purchasing all of the compounds, individually
can be quite expensive, then you have to store them and
mix them in quite small quantities to provide "just" the
right mix. Or, you can use Tom Barr's method of EI Dosing.

Hope this helps...
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

thanks for your advice feeding and filtration is not a problem (unless you can overfilter ) as at the moment my 40gal has a jbl cristal profi e 900 ie 900l per hour less the drag of pipes and media and a rena xp2 which is cycling at 1050 lph less the drag again this going to be moved to a another tank as for the carbon issue please visit WWW.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk goto forums then aquarim plants you will see a thread from myself titled active carbon and plant food, then just read on because this way above me

thanks for your help
papasan.

Hi,
After reading the comments in the forum you mentioned,
I can see why you are puzzled. I've found countless
articles on the subject, but in defference to the "Senior
Monitor" of that site, I have placed a couple of inquiries
with SeaChem asking that they help straighten out our
"Old Wives Tales" and bum passdown.
When I hear from them, I will bring it to this thread
and let you know what the Chemists (and therefore - experts)
have to say.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

thanks for your efforts frank seems a good idea to ask the experts, while we are on this subject what are you thoughts on plant food that contain phosphorus as i have taken a delivery that contains nitrogen which may sort out my nil nitrate problem and i can deal with on weekly water changes but is phosphorus in this state the same as phosphate that i struggle with due to the local water

thanks for all your help

papsan.

Hi,
I think that you will find that, generally speaking, your
plants will get all the phosphorous/phosphate that they
need from the water changes and added to that, from the
fish food of which it is a component. I very much doubt
that you need to add any extra to your tank.

You might want to check out this site:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm

Adding fertilizers to the tank can take two general tracks.
One, is to wait and see what the plants tell you, and the
other is to simply fertilize all the time. Some fertilize
the "heck" out of their tanks, and then rely on large
water changes to even things out. Others, fertilize just
enough so that they have good growth, and none of the
symptoms as mention in the above link.
Adding to the complexity of the subject are the
plants themselves. Some plants need more of some
nutrients such as iron than others.
In a sense, if you are going to have a heavily
planted tank, with 3+ watts per gallon, then you
have to add Carbon in some form, and you will have to
furnish the macro nutrients, and trace elements to sustain
that growth.
On the other hand, if you are only going to
have "some" plants, a normal bio-load of fish, and just
a watt or two per gallon of light, then you may get
by with simple weekly water changes and normal
feedings to provide what the plants need.

You might find a book titled "Ecology of the Planted
Aquarium," written by Diana Walstad a most fascinating
read. You will find that it covers just about every
facet of growing plants in an aquarium, with fish,
successfully.

Another book, that will tell you everything you might
want to know about filtration is titled
"Fish and Invertebrate Culture, Water Management
in Closed Systems", by Stephen H. Spotte.
In reading through it you will discover that our
"tiny" aquarium filters are made of "pieces" of
our municipal water treatment systems.
Charcoal filtering, fractionating, layers of various
substrates, "under gravel filtering", even using plants
to take up nutrients and metals from the water.
This book describes it all along with the chemistry and
math to back it all up. If you want, you can skip the
math, and chemistry, and read the information between the
proofs, and still come away with a real appreciation of
our filters.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

thanks again for your efforts frank looks i will have lots of interesting reading

cheers
papasan.