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I'm contemplating getting a pair of rams. I want German but may settle for Bolivian. I know about the water requirements. Anyway, If I get a pair I don't want them to be the Singapore bad type. I want a healthy quality pair. I live a ways from a big city & don't know any LFS personally & don't want the hassle of trying to find out where their rams come from.

So I want to order on line. Does anyone know a good breeder I could order from?
Also I looked at aqua bid, but did not see a shipping price? I have never ordered fish before. Approximately what would the shipping be for a pair of rams?

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I would order them from LiveAquaria.com It's a Dr.s' Foster's & Smith's site so they have great quality. They are a tad expensive but REALLY great. I ordered a fish from them once. Lived for a while but then Count Ick-ula came and killed my fish.

10G- 6 Zebra Danios, 1 Upside Down Catfish
20G- 1 Goldfish
72G(maybe95)- Need Stock suggestions

Check Aquabid.com too as there are some good deals on there. Shipping on there will depend on where the seller lives. Some have flat rates that they charge and they're usually not bad.

*Kristin*

Whats that about Singapore?

20 Gallon Long:
Aquaclear 300
2 Bolivian Rams, Mikrogeophagus altispinosus: Gumby and Pokey

They arent managed for population strength or genetic variability, and the inappropriate water values the singapore stock are raised in, plus the insane amount of import travel they go through makes them incredibly fragile, short-lived , and low on disease resistance and water quality values.

Its the way the fry are raised thats the problem, its better to get your rams from people who breed them in the correct water values locally to you. The damage to the fish is quite literally done while its in the egg and in its first few weeks of life. Theres often nothing you can do to make up for the damage done in their formative weeks.That and excessive nitrates and low temperatures is why probably 90% of rams seem to die in their first year, rather than living for the full three or four.

Bolivians by comparison, are much more stable, less overbred and much tougher, and if your not used to providing true water quality excellence, a much better choice generally.

Its one of those things about LFS 's, if you dont ask you dont get. Its only a question, and it has to do with the health and provenance of a living creature you want to buy. You have every right to ask.

I just checked out aquabid & liveaquaria. The least they want for shipping is around $45.00! I had no idea fish shipping was that high!

So I think I'll go on a local search. I'll check our small town newspaper. Look for a local aquarium club & then check the ph. book & internet in the bigger city about an. hr. drive away & see if there is a private breeder or at least ask the stores where their rams come from. Maybe I can find a smaller store that will know.

Anyway, thanks for the reply's guys!



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Ordering fish online is very, very expensive, but it can definitely be worth it. I purchased about half of my fish online, and 9 times out of 10, the fish are healthier, color up brighter, and live longer than the fish I bought from my LFS. That isn't always the case, and it's important to be picky about who you order from, since if you're going to pay that much for shipping, you want to make sure you're going to get a great fish that reaches you alive and healthy.
$45 is a bit high, even for overnight shipping. Usually I don't pay more than $30, and that's even when I'm buying from people on the other side of the country.

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...

These fish were coming from Florida.......just a few states away from me. I talked to someone in chat last night & they got African cichlids off of aqua bid, about 8 of them for $5. apiece & free shipping! Maybe they were young & unsexed.......I didn't ask. But if I watch long enough I may come across a good deal.

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don’t forget about craigslist. I see them from time to time. I am also waiting for some my self. Happy Hunting

"No whammy, No whammy, No whammy, STOP!!"

1984-Michael Larsen On Press Your Luck

Patty,

You can check for local fish clubs in the back of any issue of "Tropical Fish Hobbyist". Many of the clubs now have websites with "Buy/Sell" sections.

I would also check the "Buy/Sell" section of Simply Discus]http://forum.simplydiscus.com/[/link] and [link=Discus As A Hobby. It seems that discus keepers like "difficult" fish. I have a "species" tank of the little critters.

Anyhow, don't buy a "pair". Try to buy 2 males and 5 females particularly if they are young and difficult to sex. The more you buy, the better chance that you have of getting two sexes. Unless, of course, the shipment is from the Far East. It seems that those shipments are generally males.

The 2:5 ratio is also good if you are looking to have a pair. It seems that the ladies like choices and the men are entertaining to watch.

Tips for mikrogeophagus ramirezi:
- Acclimate very slowly (sensitive to abrupt changes in pH and hardness),
- Minimum temperature of 82F (avoids ich),
- Best in a species tank (avoids stress),
- Frequent water changes (maintain nitrates below 20 ppm)

Remember that these fish are "annual" fish in the Orinoco basin. If they live more than a couple of years, you have done very well!



__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

www.mainlycichlids.com is a great site for cichlids and some plecos.

I tried craigslist & Mainly Cichlids & the ones you suggested Bob. Been on the internet all day. Finally got the ph. book & called the pet stores in a big town about an. hr. from here, cause we don't have one. One store said they got their rams from a guy that breeds them in a neighboring city. The next shipment is supposed to be in next month. They will cost me $9. apiece.

Bob, you want me to buy 2 males & 5 females at $9. each. That's $63.. While I appreciate the suggestion, we can't do that. I will just get two, guess at the sex & go on from there. lol

Bob, (or anyone else) I know you're experienced in fish related things, so I'd like to ask you a question. If I did manage to raise about 200 fry & sold them back to this store where they sell for $9. each, how much could I expect to get for these fry? Just a ball park figure will be fine. If I'm contimplating doing this for fun, if I could make decent money at it, I would attempt it more serously! lol

Thanks for all the reply's everybody! I do appreciate it!

This site is so helpful!

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The problem with LiveAquaria.com is that they have a $29.99 minimum order and charge $34.99 for shipping.

Search for Apistodave on Aquabid (I used to have his site bookmarked but can't find it ). I recently purchased an apisto and rummynoses from TwoFishGuyz. They sell from their site as well as having auctions on Aquabid. They brought fish to the last two meetings of the club I belong to and I personally give them a good recommendation.

The bottom line with purchasing fish online is that shipping makes it expensive.

What Bob wrote is actually frequently suggested with purchasing cichlids. Many of these fish are small and can't be accurately sexed. You also can't force a pair, so even if you can choose a male and female from a tank there's no guarantee that they will be compatible. Find a proven pair and the cost goes up.

Fish clubs are a good source, a cichlid club even better.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is water at the bottom of the ocean

Patty,

The LFS generally marks up its fish 3 to 4 times their cost. That means that they pay a fully loaded cost of $2.25 to $3.00 for those rams that you were considering at $9. Given the risk of shipment, cost of acclimatization, holding cost for inventory, probable mortalities and the warranty to the unknown fishkeeper, the cost to you is reasonable.

Now if you raise 200 fry to one inch size, it is likely that the LFS owner will initially give you store credit at $2 per fish. If you become a reliable supplier with good stock, you get cash and market rates for the fish.

Send me an email with your city and state. I may be able to run down a hobbyist or fish club for you.



__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Yeah Theresa, that's what I read about rams.......... but I was hoping for good luck.

And then I would speak sweetly to them, explaining how they needed to like each other & how they needed to lay eggs & raise the fry for me, etc., etc.,.


...................

Bob-





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ive never bought fish from the net but i came across this site when i was looking for informaton on bolivian rams, http://www.azgardens.com/cichlids.php this site has good prices and the fish look great.

Thanks coop, I checked out that site. The fish ARE cheap, but there is a minimum of a $20. order. And they said they don't sex the fish. You just get what you get. And they admitted that fish shipping is not for those that pinch pennies. That's me! lol
I will just wait for that shipment of rams to come into that store in that town not far from here. That will give me time to work out my issues I have with my water anyway. BUT those fish were beautiful!

Also I sent a PM to Bob. If there are any fish clubs around here, he may know of them & let me know.