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Today just as I finished doing the water change on the 5ft tank, I started to do a bit of gardening trimming up some dead and burnt Anubias leaves, and under one leaf I saw the last of the three Pictus dead. Not repeating of what I said but it was more than dam. Then I noticed one of the medium sized 6ins Clown Loach a very pale colour. I quickly added more of the Live Bacteria, and some Melafix.

About 15 min later all CLs swimming OK.
Knowing what can and is happening with our water supply I added more live bacteria. Naturally I emptied the bottle. I finally located some about 25min freeway drive away. I also added two more air stones. I took a big water sample with me and to my amazement the PH was way out 6.
As soon as I came home I dosed the tank with a PH adjuster and the reading is now about 6.5 I will adding more PH adjuster in about 18 hrs time

All other readings perfect.
Could the drop in the PH be caused by all the new DW being added about one month ago this is when I started loosing the Pictus and hope not the Yoyos and the spotted BNs

If I am not correct what has caused the PH problem. I tested the water supply and it was OK.

As could not the same Live bacteria I am now using Stress Zyme Made by the same company only it does not have to be kept in fridge (any comments on this product will be helpful)

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
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Hi Keith,
In knowing your aquarium maintenance routines, I very much
doubt that the extra driftwood is the cause of your
problems. I'm confident that you would have noticed the
change in pH many days earlier. A dead fish can lead to
increased bacteria, some not desired, and an increase in
the nitrate reading. Unless one of the less desirable
bacteria was infecting the other fish, I don't think that
one dead fish would make that big an impact on that
large a tank.

I'm suspecting that its your water going wacky, that is
the source of your problems. This is not the first time
and I thought you were QT'ing your water in barrels just
for water changes. I also thought that you were testing
that water when you first store it and just before using
it.

I dunno.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

sorry to hear bout the pictus keithgh. i dont know anything about the stress zyme but what were you using before that?

The true test of character is not how much we know how to do, but how we behave when we dont know what to do.

The water supply is OK today but the water is 7 days old the problem could be way back.

I was using Amtrite down A USA product and it must be kept in the fridge.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

I am using Stress Zyme for the cycle that happened in my tank. Apparantly, it is awesome! It had my cycle out and through in a week! Of course, i did have it already cycling for two weeks, but i believe it is great. I am also cycling a tiny betta tank and its progress is stunningly good! Since it dosent need to be refrigderated, it is better, and cheaper. I dont think it works as well as the refridgerated ones, but it is good to have on hand!

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Update Mon pm
On Sunday after dinner I found a dead CL 7ins -18cm not the largest one. It was this CL that alerted me something was wrong as it went a very pale colouring as soon as I changed the water. I located some Stress Zyme (made by the same company) the previous product is no longer made.

I double dosed the tank with the Stress Zyme (Day one only) in three days time Wed another dose this time standard dose.

I also double dosed with Melafix

OK say it is an over kill, but the last time this happened I lost several of my big CLs, plus all my Pictus

Mon morning no deaths and the PH is back to 7 I used the Melafix again.

I have also turned the light off and kept the extra air stones going. Tue more Melafix and a light feeding, Wed 2nd dose of the Stress Zyme.

One LFS explained to me the standard cycle stuff sold was totally useless for my situation as it is way too weak and would not do the job any way.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Ah keith.......soooooo sorry!
This must be terribly frustrating for you!
I hope the problem was your water & not a bacteria going around in there. The bacteria might be harder to identify & cure than the water. I'll keep my fingers crossed for the remaining fish.

If your water is tap water, have it checked for excess Aluminium Sulphate.

I was hit with this a while back (the thread should still be around somewhere in which I lament my losses) and the losses were ALL attributed to an excess of Aluminium Sulphate being added to the water at the treatment plant by the water company.

Basically, Aluminium Sulphate is used as a flocculating agent (it causes suspended particulate matter to clump together and precipitate out) but if used in excess, whereupon that excess reaches your aquarium, BOOM - fish deaths by the truckload. ESPECIALLY scaleless fishes such as Catfishes and Loaches - they're the first to go.

Aluminium Sulphate even in small quantities in an aquarium is LETHAL to fish. Takes time to deliver its killer blow (and a tough fish can last up to 14 days before finally succumbing) but the killer blow will be delivered in pretty short order. It's why I NEVER change my water on a Friday if I can help it now, because I know that if the local water company is likely to overdose the Aluminium Sulphate, it'll be on a Friday.

Incidentally, we had an ecological incident here in the UK with respect to this - A town called Camelford in Cornwall had its local water supply contaminated with 20 tons of Aluminium Sulphate due to incompetence on someone's part at the local water treatment plant. It wiped out all the fish downstream in the local river, and caused serious health problems among a number of the population. If the water 'burns' to the taste, it's Aluminium Sulphate contamination you're dealing with, and the only fix is a RAPID replacement of the contaminated water with uncontaminated water. Even that won't save all your fish if they've been hit with a big dose.

More on Camelford here]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelford[/link], and more on Aluminium Sulphate [link=here]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_sulphate[/link] and [link=here]http://www.ilo.org/public/english/protection/safework/cis/products/icsc/dtasht/_icsc11/icsc1191.htm[/link]. In addition, [link=this safety data sheet (it's a PDF document) explains why Aluminium Sulphate is so dangerous - it hydrolyses on contact with water to produce Sulphuric Acid and gelatinous Aluminium Hydroxide, and the Sulphuric Acid will basically burn the fish's skin and gill tissues lethally.

The sudden pH drop provided me with a clue to what might have hit you.

Save a sample of the water, see if you can arrange for a public analyst test, and ask specifically for tests to determine Aluminium Sulphate contamination. If you get a positive result from that, that's what's killing your fish, and believe me, when it hit me, it did so badly. My original thread is here where I had a similar mass dieoff.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

DOUBLE POST.

I think some means of making this information permanent should be provided. Just in case anyone else is hit with the same disaster.

Signs to look for are:

[1] Fish begin keeling over for no apparent reason in a tank that was previously healthy, and this coincides with a water change;

[2] The pH level in the aquarium is significantly below normal parameters;

[3] Scaleless fishes such as Catfishes and Loaches are particularly badly hit first, with scaled fishes following afterwards;

[4] Fishes sometimes develop pop-eye like symptoms but no antibacterial treatment works, even antibiotics.

If the above criteria are met, suspect Aluminium Sulphate contamination of the water supply, and act FAST to replace the water with uncontaminated water if at all possible. If you have a particularly prized collection of fishes, acquire an RO unit for the emergency water change even if it costs you an arm and a leg to get one in a hurry, because if you have, say, £1,000 worth of Discus going to the great fish tank in the sky at a rate of knots, replacing those is going to be a LOT more costly than buying the RO unit.

Oh, and an additional pointer to look out for in the case of a saltwater aquarium is this - Triggerfishes are extremely sensitive to excess Aluminium salts of ANY kind in the water, and they will start shedding large sheets of greyish mucus upon exposure. Death follows in under 24 hours.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Even though that was not my problem that was a fantastic reply and I hope it is saved by many members and placed some where it can be easy accessed.

After receiving this info I contacted an importer he told me there is no Aluminium Sulphate in the water and the same problem is happening every year about the same time(at the moment he is getting about 10 calls a day with the same problem) from late spring to early summer Aust Nov to late Dec.

He recommends using only water from your hot water service and make sure it is set to a high temperature This will kill the very nasty bacteria. The MUST be cooled or use it the next day (at the moment no need to rest water for a week)
It is exactly the same problem I had several years ago.

I am not 100% sure what this bacteria is or does but I am sure it kills the good bacteria in your filter/tank.

My treatment is to:-
Day 1 double dose with Stress Zyme as per instructions.
Day 6 single dose.

As I do a weekly water change I will be doing this for at least one month.

Melafix double dose on water change and every day until the next water change. This also for at least one month.

My total loss looks like 5 baby Yoyos 5 baby BNs 3 large Pictus, and 1 big clown loach. Note all scaleless

Not bad for one stinking microscopic bacteria.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

I followed your posts keith! I feel a sense of loss also. I'm so sorry.

Glad you were able to trace it and it WASN'T Aluminium Sulphate contamination, because that would have been a PIG to deal with. As I found out to my cost a while back.

It was the pH drop that got me thinking about Aluminium Sulphate contamination ... and thinking about this, I'm wondering if the bacteria that are responsible produce an acidic toxin as part of their pathogenic activity, because in the absence of something like Aluminium Sulphate contamination, a sudden drop of pH such as the one you described is very unusual, particularly in a long running and well maintained aquarium such as yours. And let's face it, quite a few people here would probably regard your big 5ft aquarium as one of FishProfiles star freshwater tanks in that regard.

So, the hunt is now on for the bacteria responsible. Any clues been handed out either by the sources you've contacted directly, or online? Only if you can get a handle on the species implicated, I can go ferreting around on Google Scholar looking for appropriate scientific papers to see what the likely cause of pathogenesis is.

A quick web search yields that some bacteria species could produce lactic acid, which shouldn't be a major problem, but others produce butyric acid, which would be serious if you had a bloom of those in the aquarium. However, you would know pretty quickly if you had, because butyric acid stinks something awful - it's one of the primary odoriferous ingredients in vomit.

Trouble is though, most of the acid producing bacteria I'm finding even brief information about online are lactic acid producers, and they would have to produce a fair amount of lactic acid to drop the pH of your aquarium to the levels you measured. Hence this announcement of yours is turning into quite a puzzle for me to solve, not least because I want to be forearmed in case any of these turn up here! Though given the water treatment régimes used here in the UK, I can't see may bacteria surviving our chlorination, Aluminium Sulphate and other treatment processes, but it would be nice to know what these bacteria were so that I could find out more about them, especially if it transpires they're a Legionella species, as several of those have human health implications.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

When it last happened several years ago I had no idea of what it was or how to fix the problem. This time I got onto it quickly and from the death of the CL on Sunday not a problem at all. All the CLs are out of their caves, eating, swimming all over the tank, their colours are good except the largest/oldest CL.

When I did a water change for the Betta tank on Mon10th Dec I quickly noticed the 5 Kuhli Loaches began to behave strangely swimming all over the tank and coming to the surface. I quickly double strength with the Stress Zyme and double strength with Melafix and with in minutes all settled down. I also used the meds today today Wed12th

From now on it is water from the hot water service. It is an instantaneous unit and does not store water. I am also going to boost the temp up a bit in the HW service. I will continuously to do this until late Jan 08

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW