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I know a typical total tank clean is to be done 2-3 months depending on alot. Now the gravel substrate holds alot of healthy bacteria and even some of those tiny black worms I see.. I tend to wash my substrate totally in clean neutral water and let it pass through a sieve before replacing into the clean tank.. Wont this kill all the bacteria in the substrate? Is one suppose to leave some bacteria in the substrate?

Thanks!

Hobbyists

Hi,
First, dispel the "myth" you do not have to tear apart
your tank every 2 or 3 months! Now, having said that,
many do simply because of dissatisfaction, or they are
too impetuous and saw another "look" that they want to
use.

My current tank has been set up, continuously, for
over 14 years. In my case I use a small HOB and a
UGF for filtration. Every 10 days I change out about
10% of my tank water, and clean 1/4 of the aquarium gravel
with a Python brand siphon. That is all I do, and really,
that is all that needs to be done.

Every time you tear that tank down you are nearly destroying
the bacteria colonies that maintain the Nitrogen Cycle and
the tank will, in essence, recycle itself.

Now, my tank is heavily planted, and very lightly stocked
so I only change out about 10%, if you are more moderately
stocked, then I'd change out 20-30% of the water regularly.
To clean the substrate, look at your tank and mentally
divide the non-planted parts of the tank into four sections.
Then with each water change, vacuum a different section.
That way, within a month, the entire tank will have been
cleaned, and also, you have given each section a period of
time to recover before cleaning it again.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

With my setup, I can reach about 50% without removing the canopy top. I can get to about 80% of my gravel without moving plants and rock. I do 30% WCs every 10 days or so. I leave the top on for two changes and do what I can reach. Every third change (approx once a month) I remove the top, clean the back wall, and vacuum the full 80%. My fish are carnivorous and if I'm not aggressive with the gravel, nitrates start creeping up. I know a better solution would be more frequent, lighter cleaning but I'm not willing to clean the tank more than 2-3x / mo and will stock lighter if it it doesn't work out. I'm relying on my 600 gph biowheels - so far so good.

Is it necessary to ever clean the gravel immediately around plants? Do they use the waste? How critical is it to clean areas under large structures that cannot be accessed without a major effort?

It is not necessary to do a total tank clean where gravel has to be removed from the tank. Regularly siphoning the gravel should keep it clean well enough, but you have to remember to keep up with it or the mess will pile up.

Cleaning the gravel immediately around plants is to protect plant roots; some plants can actually have pretty extensive root systems, such as Swords. I don't think plants use detritus directly; they probably must wait for decomposing bacteria in the substrate to break waste down into more soluble particles that they can utilize, such as ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates.

If wastes can get under large structures, it is possible anaerobic pockets form while the waste decomposes. I can't imagine people with huge rock piles taking the rocks out regularly, so I'd say that it's probably safe to leave such areas alone as long as wastes don't pile up. Otherwise the next time you move stuff you could get rotton egg smell from the products of anaerobic bacteria.

--------------------------------------------
The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian.

well me personally the only manual cleaning i do is a weekly water change. i dont bucket out water the only reason the water comes out is the gravel siphon. all that does is get the crap left on bottom that your bacteria, and cleaning fish cant take care of. if your freshwater, put some mysterys in and a bottom feeding fish like corys.
if marine, turbo snails and red legged hermit crabs will help keep your gravel rid of the bad stuff. and leave in the good.

i like feesh

i agree with the other posters - why the heck tear down a tank so regularly? my 6 footer has been running for 6 years with a break to move house - and even then i didn't clean the gravel, just loaded it into buckets and put it straight back in. if you do regular vacuuming of the gravel (i do half the tank per week, and the water change is only the amount i take through the gravel vacuum) you should be absolutely fine.

as regards plants, no it's not essential to clean right around them - and depending on the species, vigourous cleaning could damage the root system.

re: large rocks/driftwood/structures, gravel vac close to the base of them, but what you can't get, you can't get. i doubt the ammonia build-up would be toxic if you can access most of your gravel.

maybe more details if you want better answers? how big is said tank? how much of the footprint can't you access with a gravel vac? what kind of plants? how heavily stocked?

I was asking purely out of curiousity but I might as well provide details for the greater good. My main concearn is the cave I have made for my channel catfish. I can fit the siphon in part of the cave but can't get it all.

As far as my plants go, I regularily replace them. The only ones that have lasted are the Vals(?) in the gravel on the left. The bluegill is hornery to say the least. I'm ok with it. I've found some that he won't touch. Not sure of all of the names of the plants I've gathered. They seem to help with controlling the nitrates though.

I have a 75g cold water tank - (3) 6-8" carnivores. 600 gph biowheel. There is a 600gph power head behind the cave rock and it is on my light timer.

Last test:
72F
7.2 pH
0 Ammonia
0 Nitrite
20 Nitrate

Latest pics (tonight). Will be cleaning the back two walls on next WC. Blocking out right wall in winter - direct sunlight.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u305/Krash7172/Aquarium/75g2-4a.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u305/Krash7172/Aquarium/75g2-4b.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u305/Krash7172/Aquarium/75g2-4.jpg

krash, because your gravel is so big, it won't trap gasses, like fine sand/gravel can - which is good. i reckon just gravel vacuuming would be fine to clear up yr fish waste - as for the cave, maybe pull it apart every once in a while, but it shouldn't present too much of a problem if all the other areas are vacuumed.

sorry for the hijacked thread, stealth.

Not a problem guys... Mcuh appreciated! Makes alot of sense. Alot of great stuff here... I dont have a gravel vac.. All I use is a regular flexible hose which I syphon from.. I place it near the gravel bed and it sucks up... BUt I aggigtae the gravel a bit to get some of the stuff from below it that the bottom dwelling loaches cant reach... Just sometimes, some of the gravel gets scooped up too so i got to be careful and watch that..

Its a community tank, 3 feet long, 1 feet high, 1 feet wide for someone who asked...

Hobbyists

You really should get a gravel attachment. It will do a better job witout releasing debris into the surrounding water and it won't remove any gravel. Not much $ for a simple one.

Didn't mean to hijack I was pointing out (like Frank) that with a reasonable maintenance schedule, you shouldn't have to do anything that drastic. Just monitor your fish behavior, pH and Nitrates.

stealth, buy a vacuum attachment!! it is a fishkeeper's must-have! they are really quite cheap - you can get a good one for about $12 australian, and if you're a DIY kinda person you could probably make one.

I had to pull the 5ft down only because it cracked the full depth of the front glass panel. It had been set up for 5+ years. I also have a full UGF plus an Eheim canister I gravel vac a section weekly plus about a 30% water change.

If you have to do a full pull down for some reason all the substrate can be kept alive with out too much difficulty it can also be washed in the tank water to remove all the dirt but not the good bacteria.

I had no choice this time but there are several good products on the market which will help in resetting up and help you through a very small mini cycle.

I will be writing up about my change over and how easy it can be done if planned out corectly.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
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Hey Krash If your worried about the cave building up wastes, Here is what I am doing for a project that I am putting together. The project is a enclosed cave that will be completely buried in the substrata, with no way to access it for any type of cleaning. to keep it free of debris I will be running a home fountain pump in the tank with a bit of hose down into the cave, this will cause a positive water pressure which will blow the wastes out of the cave itself. (Keith gave me that bit) Cheap and just powerful enough to work without disturbing anything.

I now return you to your regular thread.



mts.gif" border="0"> I vote do you?
My Tanks at Photobucket

Good luck with the cave. Will it have gravel for the floor?

My cave is simply a large clam shell shaped rock that is laying on a piece of wood. The foot print is approx 20"x10" so there is a large area that I can't clean. I can reach about 25% of it including a spot dead center where I can fit the vac between the rock and wood. There are essentially 4 passages and water flow isn't an issue. I have a large gravel substrate. So far, so good. It's been 3 months since I've moved the rock. My only concern is slightly cloudy water but I'm not sure it is related. All params are in check.

I've used things like glass milk bottles in the past for a quick cave. They have a large smooth opening. I had a loach that loved a Mickey's big mouth beer bottle. Easy to remove and clean