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I will try to be as brief as possible. I am still in the process of cycling my tank and it has been over 2 1/2 months. I want newbies to read this in the hope that it will save them great frustration on many levels. To start, my local pet store (not a chain) never advised the use of hardy fish. They did say start out with only a few but that was it. After limited online research, I learned of the cycle process on my own. I did this the best I could but soon realized that I was doing too much. Here are my mistakes.

1. Chemicals:
I used ammolock. The helpdesk for Aquarium pharmaceuticals was very friendly and took time to explain this product to me. I was worried about the high level of ammonia in the tank. I knew it was necessary to cycle the tank but wanted to know if this product would alleviate the toxicity without interrupting the nitrogen cycle. He swore up and down that this product would in deed convert the ammonia to a non-toxic form but would not adversely affect the cycle process. Well, 8 weeks went by and I was frustrated by the fact that A) there were still no nitrites present 2) I believe the ammonia bound up and created a crusty coating to all parts of the filter that got pretty thick. 3) Water quality was very poor. Started losing fish. Some had eye cloud and white spots. This forced me to use yet another one of their products called Melafix. This cleared up the problem, but forced me to start the process all over again. In the last 6 weeks I have used no Ammolock and have lost less fish and I am already showing increasing level of nitrites. I also do not have that crusty substance building up anymore. I am sure these guys know about these effects. But hey, they are selling even more product to fix problems caused by another one of thier products. Brilliant! Do not use these types of chemicals to try and make the cycle process more comfortable for your fish. Mine suffered more than need be because of this trash. Ammolock should read, "Do not use on new tanks" and if you need this product there is something wrong with your tank that needs to be corrected. There should be no ammonia present in an established tank. If you do, find the cause. Don't mask it with something else and let the problem get worse.

2. Water changing mistakes:
My Ammonia has gone through the roof, but I am now doing 15% water changes now that the nitrites are going up. I plan on doing this until the Ammonia begins to fall on its own. Before (last six weeks) I have only been doing 10% every week. In the beginning I made the mistake of doing 25% or so every week which was also preventing the bacteria from getting going. Too much new water will stress any new bacteria and possibly wipe it out. I do condition my city water to remove chlorine and other contaminates.

3. Cycle accelerating bacteria
I purchased Bio Spira. First of all, they sold me this when they knew my tank was just filled. I now know what they should have. And that is that there were no nutrients for the bacteria to feed on and simply died off. $13 down the drain. I tried bio-spira again a few weeks later and this did not seem to do any good. Who knows if this stuff stayed refrigerated or what? I think it is a marketing ploy and unnecessary. I have read from many others that have noticed no benefit from it either.

4. Over-feeding
I went by what my trusty pet shop idiot told me and fed my fish twice a day. Someone from the same shop later told me that once every two or three days was appropriate and that hungry fish are healthy fish. The later seems to hold true. Particularly during the cycle process. I was overfeeding for sure. I drop a small pinch of flake food every two days and half a shrimp pellet for my bottom feeder and they have been fine.

5. Trusted my pet shop
Everyone I spoke to had a different answer to every question. Just last week I was speaking to one of the guys that I was relying on to guide me through this process and he out of the blue said, "There is no cycle for fresh water tanks. That is for salt water tanks". My jaw dropped at that point realizing that I had been relying on the biggest idiot in the world who acted like he was the Mr. Miagy of fish. Of the 4 people at this shop, not one of them agreed on anything. In the same conversation, the other guy jumps in and says, "Yes, freshwater tanks do cycle" but followed that statement with " Fish can become immune to nitrites and lowering the PH will make Ammonia completely non-toxic". I can understand less toxic, but wow. Any way, this is my story, I hope it helps someone.

BTW, I also have some live plants now and they are awesome. In one month they have thrived and really add to the tank. I highly recommend them. Research them first as there are many different kinds.

My equipment:
18 Gallon tall tank
Penguin 200 Bio-wheel HOB power filter
Generic pump with small air stone
Single-bulb hood. Unsure wattage

Stock:
1 Angel
2 Platys
1 Bottom Feeder
1 Neon Tetra (were 4) will go to 6 after cycle completes
2 Rasbora Tetras (were 4) will go to 6 after cycle completes

Lost several Tetras during cycle. I strongly advise not adding these kinds of fish until cycle is completed.

Top, I am so sorry for your loss and the trouble you had. You are right to not fall into the trap that so many new ppl do, trusting the lfs guy. These ppl, who are often(BUT NOT ALWAYS) poorly trained and misguided. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of very knowledgable and trustable fish people out there in the stores, many of them are here in FP quite often. But there are also those just out to sell products.
This site, and others like it contain a great wealth of information, and these forums are visited and moderated by some very nice, knowledgable and helpful people. Many of them have helped me several times.
As for Aquarium Pharm, I'd give them the benefit of doubt, they do sell a line of fine products that many of us use daily. If you would have just asked the folks here they would have explained all about the cycling process, advised not to use any chemicals such as ammo lock, which binds ammonia together to be caught easier in your filter or something loke that.
We would have even advised you about your stock, the use of hardy fish and even suggested fishless cycling.
Yes, hindsight is 20/20, and no, I am not trying to in any manner. I am glad that you have sought the help you needed and learned from any mistakes you may have made, and delighted that you want to help others. I am just saying that, research, research, research is the answer to many problems, and should be done before they arise.
So, that being said, welcome to Fish Profiles and happy... aquariuming?
p.s. some here may say the angel should be in a bigger tank

One very important lesson you have learnt is never go to that LFS again. I think we have all been through that at the very begining of fish keeping. Today there is so much info around you just have to sort it out. Thank goodness for the WWW and Fish profiles I wish something like this was around when I started 35+ yeras ago.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith:

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Yeah, I know the angel may outgrow my tank. He is still pretty small and at this point next year I may be into movin on up in tank size. I am not so much a fan of the little fish but have a tank that kind of forces them on me. I think he will be OK for a while. If he gets too big and I keep my tank, I may bring him back to the store. They will take him. I hate to do that to him but felt that maybe he would be OK in this tank for quite some time. We'll see. Thanks for the reply.

Hi Topper,
There are some very valuable lessons is what you write for a newbie. Although it has been a very fustrating process for you, you are now equipped with the knowledge you need for future setups.

As far as ammolock is concerned, I feel it is a good product but personally would only recommend it for an established tank that has a mysterious ammonia spike and the fish appear distressed.. using ammonia neutralising products will give false ammonia readings and it becomes difficult to tell when there is truley a problem that you need to tend to. Many people fall into the trap of using a big list of chemicals in an effort to care for their fishie buddies when really most are not needed.

In experience I have found all lfs employees have differing opinions on fishkeeping methods. Many times I have scoffed at the advise I have overheard given to an unsuspecting hobbyist. The best you can do is ask then go away and research yourself. Never rush into a purchase.



Welcome to Fishprofiles.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

I posted this in the other thread but that is now locked. I'm repeating the posting here because this thread is active and will still be contributed to.

Fishless Cycling

Welcome to the world of fishless cycling. Or, how not to lose prized and much loved fishes.

Fishless cycling, as the phrase suggests, involves finding a means of building up a colony of filter bacteria in your chosen filter medium that doesn't involve having fishes present. How is this done? Well, there are several ways, but all of them, ultimately, converge upon one basic idea, namely providing nutrients for the bacteria to feed upon and develop.

Of course, the bacteria of interest - the ones that perform the Ammonia->Nitrite->Nitrate conversion steps - aren't the only ones that will be needed. They're of vital importance from the standpoint of the fishes that will live in the aquarium, but they require other bacteria to provide them with some nutrients in the first place. And those bacteria - the ones further back in the chain - are the ones responsible for decomposition.

So, a source of organic matter to decompose is needed. Fish food is a nice handy source - your everyday flakes that will, in time, feed the fishes once they're established. But, in a fishless cycling setup, that food is also used initially to feed the bacteria.

Now here's the fun part. In the past, people have dumped a quantity of fish food into the aquarium and let it rot - far more in one go than they would feed to any fishes present. Yes, you end up with decomposing organic matter if you do this, but you end up with other problems too - such as bacterial blooms.

The way I approached this with the Panda Nursery was to add fish food to the empty aquarium as if I was feeding some resident fishes. Why did I do this? Simple.

Allow me to compare the two thus. Dumping a sizeable quantity of organic matter in one go into the aquarium is a bit like dumping a dead buffalo in your living room. You'll have a lot of meat, but pretty soon that living room is going to be a festering, stinking hovel. Pretty soon, the only creatures that WILL want to live there will be lots of flies. Adding fish food in small, measured quantities each day, on the other hand, is more akin to putting bacon rashers in your freezer. The house stays habitable, and you get to have a nice bacon breakfast each morning.

Likewise, adding small, measured quantities of food daily to the aquarium provides the bacteria, as they grow, with a constant food source. They are not overwhelmed at the start of the operation, and gradually grow to colonise the filter. Eventually, a complete colony of ALL the requisite bacteria needed for a functioning biological filter will appear - and will do so because they've been fed properly. No need for additives.

As the colony develops, the amount of food can be gradually increased. Start off with a tiny quantity each day initially, and gradually work up to the amount that would be fed to a tankful of real live fishes. About 4 weeks should be the requisite time over which this is done.

Once the filter colony has settled, and the Ammonia and Nitrite readings are zero, the first fishes can be added. This again is an incremental process. In a community aquarium, which is intended to contain multiple species, start off with the bottom feeders first (Corys etc), then add the middle and top feeders about 4 weeks or so, again in controlled numbers, after the bottom feeders have become established.

This takes time. Because the bacteria take time to multiply to the point where they are capable of processing the wastes produced by the incoming fishes. There is no 'fast' way of doing this. Anyone who tells you otherwise has his eye on your wallet, and some snake oil to sell you. Exercise patience, cultivate the colony of bacteria, and stock incrementally once the bacteria colony is established, so that the colony isn't overwhelmed by a sudden jump in nutrients (i.e., fish wastes).

People may look strangely at you adding food to an 'empty' aquarium, but that's the point - it isn't empty. The first living things - the bacteria - are preparing to gain a foothold from the moment you first add water. Your job is to give the bacteria a nice comfortable home, so that eventually, they in turn will provide a nice comfortable home for the fishes. And, by cultivating the colony with gradually increasing nutrient levels, you will give the bacteria a comfortable home.

Remember, you can't rush Nature. If you try to, Nature will bite back. Steady does it all the way.

UPDATE : Some basic facts that you need to know about Ammonia etc.

[1] Ammonia actually exists in equilibrium in aqueous solution with a compound called Ammonium hydroxide. The equilibrium point shifts with pH. More acidic water shifts the balance toward Ammonium Hydroxide, which is slightly (but only very slightly) less toxic than free Ammonia, while alkaline pH shifts the balance toward free Ammonia. This is why nitrogen cycle management is more critical in saltwater and Rift Lake setups than in Amazonian-type freshwater setups, because Amazonian setups are acidic (and shift the equilibrium toward more Ammonium Hydroxide, which is slightly easier for the filter bacteria to metabolise), while SW and Rift setups are alkaline, and shift the balance toward more free Ammonia (which is slightly harder for the bacteria to metabolise than Ammonium Hydroxide).

[2] Both Ammonia and Nitrites (NO2) are dangerous in small quantities. Fish do NOT (as that fool you spoke to said) become 'immune' to nitrites, because Nitrites bind to the fishes' haemoglobin, rendering it useless for oxygen transport within their bodies. Nitrites act like Cyanides in this respect, and are almost as dangerous to your fishes! Ammonia is dangerous for a different reason - it shuts down the functioning of the gill tissues and precipitates slow suffocation via that route. Levels of these two compounds should be zero, because Ammonia is lethally toxic at concentrations as low as 0.25 parts per million, and Nitrites at around 0.5 parts per million.

[3] Nitrates (NO3) are less toxic to fishes, but levels above 40 parts per million should be avoided. However, Nitrates are taken up by green plants, ranging from microscopi algae all the way up to advanced higher plants such as Amazon Swords. Hornwort, Ceratophyllum demersum, soaks up Nitrates at a rate of knots, and is an excellent plant to use in a fry rearing aquarium where you're prevented from using a high-capacity power filter because you don't want the fry to be sucked into the filter (fry tanks usually have sponge filters which are useful, but limited in capacity). You should be aiming at keeping Nitrates around 10 parts per million to keep your fishes happy - much lower than that and you might not have sufficient nutrients for the plants if your aquarium is heavily planted (and if so, they'll help stabilise the nitrate levels anyway, but water changes and gravel vacs will still be needed).





Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002