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Hello

If I get the "real deal" C02, do I need a solenoid valve? I'm confused on this. LFS who stock these systems, tell me that if I want to be able to run the bottle on a timer to shut off in sequence with my lights, that I need a solenoid valve. Is that true or are they suggesting something I don't really need? If don't have the solenoid valve, can I still set it up to a timer to turn off when my lights are off?

Also, does it matter if it shuts off when the lights are off, or not? I thought it was important to do this, but I'm probably wrong. I'm wondering what others out there do - if they have a solenoid, or not? If I don't need it, that's one less expense.

My next question is about the size of the pressurised gas bottles. My tank is 43.5G, so how big do you think the bottle should be? I can buy a 500g (1.1 pound) bottle which a LFS can fill. The 500g bottle will cost about $121, plus a stand of around $30. Then I own the bottle & I've been quoted about $12 to fill it. Or I can rent a 6.5kg (14lb) bottle from BOC for around $100 per annum, plus $33 fill. To buy a 6.5kg bottle costs around $299 - in the long run it's cheaper, but bigger outlay - so I don't really want to spend that now.

Is 500g bottle too small to be practical? I'd love to hear opinions of those who use the bottles.

thanks,

Cheers
TW

solenoid valve~ You do not have to have one but it makes life a lot simpler. I want to say that some people just let there system run 24/7 but your plants are making CO2 at night so why give them more of it. If you want to have it shut down with your light system on a timer then you need the solenoid valve.

Bottles~ I think that most of us are running 5 or 10 pound bottles (USA). A 5Lb should last about 6 months I guess so you do the math with a 1.1 Lb or 14Lb.



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Robyn,

Purchase the solenoid valve as both a convenience item and as a safety requirement. The valve may be triggered to open or close by a timer or by a sensor. I would recommend a pH sensor to trigger the solenoid valve.

Adding CO2 will reduce the pH of your aquarium. Uncontrolled CO2 addition leads to an uncontrolled pH reduction and generally dead fish as fish are much more sensitive to a decrease in pH than an increase in pH.

With a pH sensor and controller, you can literally dial in your desired pH. You can determine your desired pH by measuring your KH and determining the level of CO2 that you desire in your tank. I would aim for 21 ppm. The pH/KH/CO2 table will indicate your desired pH.



__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Robyn,

Some bedtime reading to make you more confused:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/night.html

Just wondering, how many people have actually observed their fish gasping overnight when they leave their pressurized CO2 on 24/7 (once it's stabilized of course)? I don't have any personal experience with pressurized CO2, but I leave my DIY CO2 on 24/7 and my fish have been fine. I did not see any measurable drop in pH when I tested at nighttime.

Also keep in mind that while pH controller is nice to have, IMO it's cost prohibitive here in Australia (at least AU$400, much more for good ones). We're not as lucky as some of you in Asia & North America where planted tank equipments can be had for (relatively) cheap. Just putting things in (local) perspective.

Cheers!


-P

Hi,
In a sense, I think perhaps, "we" are mixing apples
and oranges here.

The idea of a solenoid, is to turn on, and off, the
CO2 gas. The reasons for this are varied and will
be explored later in this post.

Before continuing, I believe that one should not attempt
injecting CO2 into a tank, unless that tank is well
maintained.
By well maintained, I mean a tank that is regularly
cleaned, the water changed, and the Carbonate Hardness
(KH) maintained at 3+. IF you are going to inject
bottled CO2, THEN you should always keep your KH at
at least a 3 and preferably slightly higher.

As far as turning the gas on and off is concerned...

I believe that the "gas on gas off" arguments are
based primarily on the cycle that plants go through
during a 24 hour period.

During the "lights off" part of the cycle,
plants switch from consuming CO2 and giving off O2,
to consuming O2 and in a sense compete with the
other living creatures in the tank for oxygen.

This depletion of oxygen can stress fish leaving them
gasping at the surface for O2 as the plants have depleted what was available.
However, for this to happen in a well maintained tank,
you would have to have that tank crammed with fish as if
it were an LFS tank housing a newly arrived batch of
feeders. Not many of us do that.

Another possible problem is that if the KH is too low
then a small about of CO2 gas (which breaks down into
a weak acid) can make a large difference in the pH of the
tank and the result is a large pH swing between lights on
and lights off. Keeping your KH at, at least a 3 would
resolve that problem.

Another reason is to conserve the gas and use it only
when the plants would use it.
"Why waste the CO2 if they aren't going to use it?"



Some of us, myself included, simply set the needle valve
for the desired BPS rate, monitor the pH & KH regularly
and leave things alone, running it 24/7/365.

Others prefer to turn the gas on and off with the lights.

Others prefer to have a computer do it automatically as it
is needed to maintain a near constant pH.

There are two ways to turn on, and off, the gas.

One is to manually shut the needle valve on the regulator
off each night, and then open it again in the morning.
This method leads to wear and tear on the needle valve
its bushings and the seat and will mean that you have to
rebuild the regulator at some interval... Not a good idea.

Or, we can use a solenoid.

We can control the solenoid two ways.
We can use a timer, or we can use a controller.

With a timer we set the solenoid to turn off the gas at
the same time the lights go out. (After all why have
the gas being injected if the plants don't need it?)

We can use a controller. A controller is actually a small
computer with ports for a pH probe and others, and a port
for the solenoid. With a controller you set the desired
pH, and the computer will turn the gas off and on to
maintain that pH within a 0.x point or two. IE, keep the
pH between a 6.8 and a 7.0 or even tighter depending upon
the quality of the probes and controller. Also you can set
the controller to turn off the gas for periods of time.


So the root cause for all this is the cycle of the plants
switching from consuming CO2 to consuming O2, coupled
with that, the "waste of gas" during the "off"
hours, with an added dash of fear...Are we going to
stress the fish with a lack of O2, and or, a large
pH swing, during the night?

Personally, the number of "toys" (pH probe, controller,
solenoid, etc.) depends upon your amount of $$, and
how much you enjoy the technical part of aquarium keeping.
None are really necessary. They are "accessories" and
will help automate your CO2 injection. However, by
keeping my tank lightly populated, heavy with plants,
and my KH at, at least 3, I run my CO2 24/7 and my
pH swing is less than .2 which is well within the
comfort zone of my fish. And, at an injection rate of
around 1-2 bps, my tank lasts about 6 months, and costs
$9 and some change (tax) to refill. My only concession
to the technical part is the purchase of a PinPoint pH
monitor that I leave on 24/7 and glance at each time I
come into the room. It takes a 9V battery that I replace
every few months.

I hope this helps...
Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Personally, the number of "toys" (pH probe, controller,
solenoid, etc.) depends upon your amount of $$, and
how much you enjoy the technical part of aquarium keeping.
None are really necessary. They are "accessories" and
will help automate your CO2 injection.

Well said, Frank. /:'

-P

Thanks, one & all.

Though I like the convenience of being able to set it up to a timer, it sounds like solenoid is something I could add later, if I decide I want it & if I save up a few more dollars. You don't have to get everything all at once - right??? You can add on to these systems later if you want - right???

However, by keeping my tank lightly populated, heavy with plants, and my KH at, at least 3, I run my CO2 24/7 and my pH swing is less than .2 which is well within the comfort zone of my fish. And, at an injection rate of around 1-2 bps, my tank lasts about 6 months

Every time I test my KH, it is consistently 3. So this is the minimum I should have if I start off with it on 24/7? I'm stocking my tank with FP advice - I don't think stocking level is light, but it shouldn't be overstocked, because as said, list was worked out with help of FP members. Here's my list: 4 platys, 6 guppys, 2 rams, 8 harlequin rasboras, 10 panda corys & maybe some ottos (say 3). I do weekly water change & clean & tidy up at that time. So does that fit the crieteria of a well maintained tank that would cope with 24/7?

BTW Frank & Bob, what size bottle do you use? My tank is 43.5G.

As always, thanks Paulus. For some reason I couldn't get the link to work, I'll try on my home computer, as it said something about possible browser problem or that the document might have moved???

I hope I hear from your WA contact soon, as I'd like to put this idea to bed, one way or anther. Either cross it off my list, as too expensive & just go back to Flourish Excel, or start the process. Ebay has brewing regulators for fairly cheap, say $90, some cheaper. Would they be ok to use? Can bubble counters be connected to these brewery ones?

I know you guys must get sick of newby questions, so sorry.

Cheers
TW

Hi,
I have two 5 pound bottles. At first I had one and when
it emptied and I took it in to be refiled, I was told that
I'd have to wait three days to get it back. During that
time my pH went from 6.8 to 7.3 and I did not like that
kind of pH swing. So, I purchased a second bottle. Now
I keep one filled at all times and one hooked up to the
tank. When the one in use empties, I can switch bottles
and can get it refilled at my leisure. No rush, and no
swings of pH.

All you NEED for a bottled CO2 injection system is:
A 2 stage regulator with needle valve.
A bubble counter
A reactor or difuser
A few feet of "CO2" hose.
CO2 passing through regular aquarium airline hose causes
the hose to become brittle and crack (leak). Use only
"CO2" hose. Its the same size but black in color.

All of the other things you can add as you want.
Many of the regulators sold by the fish places now
have solenoids attached but with some hunting you
could fine one without. Or, purchase one with the
solenoid and just not use it, yet.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

"CO2" hose = silicone tubing/airline
(and it comes in clear as well, even green)

The link didn't work because it's a bug in the system. Try copying this onto your browser:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/night.html



-P

Does anyone know where to find different colors of CO2 air line?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Hi Wingsdlc

Here in Australia I have found black at some, but not all, LFS. Also, if you buy a JBL system, it comes with black. Maybe you can source someone who stocks JBL and they might be able to get you the black. It also comes separate to the kit. Hope this helps.

Cheers
TW

Frank pretty much said it all.

But I'll throw in my own $0.02 for what it's worth.

Forget a pH controller. Most anyone I know who had aciidently killed fish with Co2 gas were using ph controllers. They are not a one stop solution. They need to be calibrated and kept clean, the sensor can go askew giving you a false reading on your co2. If it reads the ph too high it'll pump in more gas then you need, if it reads to low not enough gas.

Controlling the gas yourself is not difficult.

A solenoid is defintely not needed. Nice but nowhere near neccessary.

The 24hr / running Co2 at night arguement gets a bit silly. Most starting up are paranoid about harming the fish. You'll have pH swings whether the gas is on at night or not (the swings will just go in different directions), the fish aren't bothered at all by these slight swings.

Certainly the gas is not needed at night but it's not going to cause any harm. So really it just boils down to convenience and saving gas (which is so cheap to be hardly a consideration at all).

If you are not going to use a solenoid just leave the gas on 24/7. If you are still worried about that run an airstone at night after lights out, way cheaper then a solenoid.

A half kilo tank is awfully small, it's only one pound, I'd guess you'd have to fill the tank very month or so, therefore it may not be cheap in the long run.

On the other hand the 6.5 kilo is probably too big, it'll take up a lot of space and be a bit of an eyesore.. A 5 -10 lb (2-4 kilo)is ideal, it's a nice size, the 5lb should fit nicely under the tank and be hidden away, and last long enough that you don't have the dash for a refill too often.

I couldn't agree more with Frank on the maintenance aspect. Sometimes folks see Co2 as a fix all. If not handled properly it can cause more problems then it solves, it's not a switch on walk away deal. Adding co2 is a fair leap in work required. Dosing of ferts needs to almost daily, the increased growth leads to lot more trimming, you got to keep an eye on the gas rates, diffusers to be cleaned etc. The results will be far superior to anything you can achieve without gas but you need to put the effort in to make it work.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks Bensaf

I think I'm pretty much convinced now that a solenoid valve is a luxury and I don't need it. If I do go the real deal, I might run an airstone at night - much cheaper solution & will give me peace of mind. I have a spare pump & airstone - so no out lay cost there at all. Everything else in this exercise is soooo dear here

On the other hand the 6.5 kilo is probably too big, it'll take up a lot of space and be a bit of an eyesore

Agree, that's what putting me off renting one (doesn't come smaller). I can rent a 6.5kg bottle on a monthly direct debit basis for around AU$9 per month - so that eases the pain of not parting with a big bundle of cash at the same time as purchasing my own bottle. I've found a 2lb bottle I can buy, but the price jumps up to AU$286 (just for bottle). So maybe I'll rent a bottle for a while & save up my money for my own down the track further. Still trying to get prices for regulator, bubble counter etc here in Aust. & in the end, I'll still have to figure if I can afford it (or not).

If I do, I'll start another thread about my fert schedule. I'm glad you mentioned this, I didn't realise I'd have to change that. I'm using the fert schedule that you helped me with earlier this year. I don't mind the extra work to clean the diffuser etc - although hubby begrudges the time I spend with my tank. I my tank. I often bring work home at night & the tank is near my home PC. It's nice to glance back at my fishies & plants - but I'm waffling here. Sorry guys.

Very grateful for everyone's $0.02 input. Don't know where I'd be if people didn't give so generously of their time to help out.

Cheers
TW

I didn't realise I'd have to change that. I'm using the fert schedule that you helped me with earlier this year.

That's pretty much what I meant by people having more problems with Co2 then without. Some fall into the trap of thinking jast put in Co2 and all my problems are solved and the plants will grow great.

A co2 injected tank will 9-10 times more growth then a non-co2 tank, about 3-5 times more growth then an Excel tank. It's not just faster growth, it's bigger much more lush growth. That puts a much greater strain on the nutrient supply and you have to adjust accordingly. Dosing will be higher amounts and much more frequent, 6 days out of 7. But in some ways it's easier, you only need a spoon and it only takes 30 secs a day. You'll need plenty of time for trimming though

We can work out a dosing schedule when the gas is ready

EDIT: I've just remembered you are using a type of DIY CO@ at the moment ? If that's the case the dosing schedule I gave before should still be good.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hi Bensaf,

My fert schedule is:-

KH2P04 - 1/8th tspn 3 times a week
KN03 - 1/2 tsp - 3 times a week
Traces - 3 times a week
1/4 tspn Epsom Salt at water change

So will will that stay the same when (and if) I get the gas bottle up & running?

Because I'm not getting much C02 in the tank, I've started using Flourish Excel again, 4ml daily.




Cheers
TW

Hi there

Does anyone know if a "beer brewing" regulator such as this one on sale at ebay, would work for setting up a pressurised C02 system for my tank?

Here is the link http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6259541190

Edit. The seller has told me that it is suitable and that other "fishos" as he call us, have purchased it for this purpose. Does all this seem right? Compared to what I've found so far in both LFS and online sites, seems a good price. With this, my $9per month rented bottle, then I'll only need bubble counter, diffuser & non return valve - right? Do you think a technically challenged person (me) could manage then to set this all up?

Cheers
TW

I think you would be ok with it but I am not 100% sure. One more thing you need to add to your list is a neddle valve.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Oh, ok - thanks Wingsdlc.

Do you know if LFS sell needle valve separately or do they usually come with the regulator? Or do I get them from welding gas supplies? These little things bother me. What if I buy all these separate bits & pieces & then can't get that one last crucial thing that put's it all together. It makes my head spin but, if I can get it to work on a budget, what a buzz that will be.

Cheers
TW

The dosing schedule looks fine - I was asumming you'd get decent output from existing Co2.

The regulator itself is fine, but yrs you would a needle vavle and one that fill fit the barb on the regulator.

Unfortunately needle valves are about the hardest thing to find Usually the regulators sold in LFS will already have one fitted.

I would definately try to source and price a needle valve first before laying out money on a regulator. You may find the LFS regulator kit more convenient and cheaper in the long run.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Oh well, I knew it was too easy that I'd get it that cheap. Knew there'd be a catch. Just as well that I checked with you guys here. Re: the low CO2 in my tank. I'm going to try mixing my brew the same way Paulus does, to see if I get a better results.

thanks Bensaf

Cheers
TW