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Hi,
Generally speaking...
The speed with which the "brew" gives off CO2 depends
upon several things. The age and viability of the yeast,
the ambient temperature around the container, the ratio
of yeast/sugar and how diluted the mixture is (how much
water to start with).
Yeast contains the additives because it is used primarily
in baking and the additives help control the rising
process for better results and they control the aging
process of the yeast remaining in the container. As I
recall, the container should be stored in a cool/dry
place.

Pure Brewers Yeast is the best, but the additives mean
nothing to the gas (CO2) or the fish... unless, they get
into the tank. Then you will have a mess. They may
inhibit the production of CO2.

Frank



-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hi Robyn,

Just want to share my experience with that Red Sea CO2 system. I've been using it on my 23g tank for the last week and a half. So far I've been getting a pretty consistent reading of around 15ppm CO2 (initial pH drop from 7.8 to 7.0, and remaining constant at 7.0 with KH 5). Plants are responding quite well to it (lots of pearling during the day, stem plants getting huge new leaves compared to before). Since your tank size is twice as large as mine, you may need to add another DIY bottle to get to a decent CO2 level, at least at some point in the future when your plants are more established and/or if you have more plant mass.

BTW, I stopped putting the diffuser pump on the same timer as the light after two days because the pump would make this horrible clicking noise (which annoyed my wife) everytime the timer goes on and refused to work until about 2 hours later (the noise goes away after it works properly). Plus when I compared the pH in the morning after it's been on vs. off all night, the pH stayed the same (i.e. it didn't make any difference). I think the yeast doesn't give off enough CO2 to make a significant difference in CO2 level. Perhaps the bio production of CO2 also tapers off at night due to the cooler temp? Anyways, it's been running 24/7 since the yeast doesn't sleep at nights either.

I'm also going to try making my own DIY mixture after the current one runs out. I'll share the recipe if I find a good one.

Anyways, hope that helps a little!



-P

Hi upikabu

Bottle says sufficient for tank up to 160 Litres, so that's disappointing to hear. What's the name of the test kit you use to get your CO2 & KH levels. I have test kits for ammonia, PH, nitrite & nitrate, but I don't think I've seen other kits in LFS ??? I should do the test and aim to match your results, getting an additional bottle if required. Is that right? I won't be surprised if you're right, because although I'm pretty sure I can see new growth on some of my plants, I have not seen any pearling. It's no point adding CO2 at all, if I'm not adding enough to do the job. So I'm glad you shared the experience with me. If you can, pls let me know the kits I should buy to monitor this.

Thanks for the link to buy my ferts. It was in a suburb I never usually go to & about 40 mins drive away. I followed road directions from "whereis.com.au" - not realising it was one block away from the start of my running club's monthly race. (It gave different directions to way I would have gone, had I realised where it was. I should have checked the old fashioned way in the street directory - I would have know then.) We actually run past the shop each month during our race. Didn't even realise it was there, as the only thing I know in that area is the race course. In the short distance of the block separating race start from ferts shop, the suburb changes from Smithfield to Wetherill Park (location of ferts). So although it is a fair drive from home (and I won't need any more for about 12 months anyway) it is in a really convenient location for me, as I go there once a month anyway. So that was a great co-incidental pick when you gave me the link for that company. BTW It cost me $10 in total, for half kilo of each.

My lights & CO2 are on separate timers, but the on / off time sequence is matched. So far, this has worked without a problem. The 1st timer I bought to run the lights wouldn't work either (it wouldn't turn the lights off). Once I replaced this, & also purchased additional timer for my CO2, all seems to work fine.

BTW, Tom Barr (in a previous thread) gave me this recipe for the CO2 brew.

(6 cups of luke warm water, 1 cup sugar, 1/2 teaspoon baker's yeast).

He also told me to change the bottle at least every 10-14 days, not monthly as the instructions on the packaging.

As I said in my earlier post, I can't find bakers yeast without some included additives, although advice above is that this shouldn't matter. Frank says pure brewers yeast is best - so I'll check that one out at Health Food store.

I'd still be keen to hear any other recipe you find also, so thanks for that.

Cheers
TW

It's no point adding CO2 at all, if I'm not adding enough to do the job. So I'm glad you shared the experience with me. If you can, pls let me know the kits I should buy to monitor this

Not so, really. Any CO2 will help. It's just a matter of adjusting your nutrient dosing to the uptake of the plants. And, as has been said by Bensaf on several occasions thoughout the different logs here, you need not having pearling to have good growth. Look for lushness, fullness and good coloration in older growth to know your plants are doing well. Pearling is pretty, but it doesn't have to be used as the gold standard of good growth.

As for measuring CO2, you need a KH test kit and a pH test kit. Find out the measurments of those two, then plug in the numbers in the calculator at the bottom if this page:

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

---

Back in the saddle!

Not so, really. Any CO2 will help.

I have to disagree with this, although I see where nowhere is coming from.

Low Co2 will aid plant growth somewhat but unfortunately it will also aid algae growth.They need Co2 too. By keeping it high and stable the the advantage goes to the plants to the dis-advantage of algae.

Personally I'd prefer to use a good non Co2 method then poor co2 supplementation.

Follow Tom's advice as it will keep the output higher and more stable. Avoid peaks and troughs on the Co2 levels.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hi Robyn,

The only other test kit you need to measure the CO2 is KH (you already have pH). I have the Sera one I got from overseas, but any brand should work. Although if you don't want to waste money on a KH kit, you could just bring a sample of your water to your LFS to test for KH & GH. If your KH is 4 or above, it shouldn't fluctuate between the weekly water changes (at least mine hasn't - it's stayed stable at 5 dKH).

Glad you were able to find the ferts ok - and cheap too! The store I got mine is quite a drive from where I live, so you're lucky!

Thanks for the tip about the separate timer - perhaps that's why my diffuser acted up. It was on the same timer as the lights. I might get another timer to test. Then again, I may have gotten a defective pump.

As far as yeast, I got instant dry yeast from Woolies that has the 491 additive (stabilizer) too. I'll let you know what happens when I use it.

Nowhere is right about the pearling. I get decent growth on my non-CO2 tanks (with and without Excel addition) and I never see any pearling there. I do see pearling in the tank I have the Red Sea CO2 unit, but that's probably because of my tank volume is half yours. So it might be that the CO2 level in your tank is not enough to cause any pearling. Anyways, since we're talking about it, here's a shot I took tonight of my ludwigia repens pearling:


-P

Thanks guys for such quick replies. Seems I need to buy that test kit for KH and use the calculator link you gave me (thanks NowherMan6). Then I'll know if I have enough Co2 or not. Packing indicated it should be just about be enough (up to 160L, & I have 165L or 43.5G), but probably, it won't be quite enough.

Can't see any algae in my tank, but my twisted vallis looks a little hairy - but I can't remember if it was like that to start with (or not). If that's algae, it seems to be all I have. Can't see any on glass or rocks.

Nice looking plant upikabu.

Thanks for the advice. Helpful as always.

Cheers
TW

Hi guys
Ok, so I bought the GH test kit and the result for KH is 3, PH is 7.5. When I key those figures into the calculator that NowherMan6 gave me, I come up with a dismal 2.86 ppm. So I'll definitely have to add another bottle. I think raising my KH might help too.

Cheers
TW

I come up with a dismal 2.86 ppm.

There's something up other then adding another bottle. That is the kind of level you'd see in a non-co2 tank.

Either the bottle is not producing Co2 or it's not dissolving in the water - what are you using as a reactor ?

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Robyn,

That's pretty strange. Since I'm using the same system as you (and even the same initial solution) and given that I get approx. 15ppm CO2 from it on my 23g, you should be getting at least 7ppm CO2. I wonder if your pH kit is accurate. Which brand do you have? You do see tiny bubbles being spit out of the diffusor pump, right? I would also suggest testing the pH during the day.

-P

Hi guys

That's pretty strange. Since I'm using the same system as you (and even the same initial solution)

upikabu, I hadn't told you all re my C02 setup, 'cause I thought there was no need & thought what I was doing was OK. So, here's a bit of history. Sorry, it's a little long winded, as I can't explain why I think this happened, unless I reveal all. Then see if you agree with my theory of where I went wrong. So if you're brave enough to read this, you'd better grab a coffee first & settle in. Before I got Red Sea C02 system, I bought a JBL C02 system. It's meant to be hooked up to an air stone (included in kit) & runs by a standard air pump. After I got the kit home, reading the instructions revealed it was only sufficient for a 100L (26.4G) tank. My tank is 165L (43.5G). So I decided not to use the JBL for the moment, while I researched further, for a system big enough for my tank. That's when I found the Red Sea system, which claimed to be sufficient for 160L, slightly smaller than my tank, but only missing out by 6L or 1.5G. As you know, upikabu, Red Sea system has a diffusion pump & a venturi system - it claimed to contain one month supply of C02. After I received advice from Tom Barr that I should change it every 10-14 days (not monthly), I thought I'd combine the two systems, alternating the 2 bottles. Time passed & I did my 1st bottle swap about 8 or so days ago. The JBL bottle is now the one in use. I didn't hook it up to it's own equipment, simply hooked up to the Red Sea venturi system - maybe that's my 1st mistake. It probably should've been set up as it was designed to be - but I thought it'd be OK. 2nd Mistake & probably the biggest mistake - rather than waste the initial JBL reactor substance, I used it. That was dumb - the mixture was only sufficient for a 100L tank - so it's 65L (or 17.1G) short. A courier has delivered my 2nd bottle of Red Sea, which comes with a batch of reactor substance.

what are you using as a reactor

Bensaf, the current reactor is as above (the insufficient JBL). Tom gave me this recipe, which I intend to use: 6 cups luke warm water, 1 cup sugar, 1/2 teaspoon baker's yeast. The only change I'm making is to swap brewers yeast for bakers yeast. Only doing the swap because I can get pure brewers yeast, but I can only find bakers yeast with additives.

So tonight, I'll set up the new Red Sea kit & also refill the empty Red Sea bottle with Tom's recipe (both will need 24hrs reaction time). Then I'll replace the JBL bottle with both of these. I'm hoping & thinking the above explains my low C02. I'm planning to use the empty JBL bottle, as my spare change over bottle. I'll need a spare because of the 24hr down time for the reaction to start.

do you see tiny bubbles being spit out of the diffuser pump,

Yes, sometimes I see them easily - particularly as I've moved a tall Cabomba Babelfish suggested I should move to either side of the tank, away from the middle. This plant blocked direct view of the venturi, so an added benefit of following her advice is I can now see it. I sometimes see bubbles clearly as they rise – but sometimes I only see them if I peek under a rock that forms a cave. I can just see the venturi through the cave & yes, I can see the bubbles coming out. Prior to moving the tank & this was when Red Sea was in place, the bubbles would have been coming up behind this plant - so I'm not sure what was happening then.

So after the 2 bottles have both been running for a day or so, I'll re-do KH & pH test & see what I come up with. BTW, is 7.5pH too high?

I would also suggest testing the pH during the day

Does it change depending upon time of day? I'll have to wait till the weekend to try that. There is a lot more to learn in this plant / fish business than I thought

Cheers
TW

BTW upikabu. Where did you get your Red Sea kit. My LFS wanted about $80 for one, but this website sells it for around $52 or thereabouts. Most other products are cheaper than LFS. I'm sure I'm not telling you something you don't know already, having been around this gig longer than me - but just in case, here is the site www.aquaticlifeaquariums.com.au. If you join up, you get a 10% member discount & membership costs nothing. They tell me that are shortly ceasing the membership advantage, but will adjust their prices for everyone & prices should be the same or cheaper.

Cheers
TW

Hi Robyn,

I got my Red Sea kit overseas (Hong Kong) as it was a lot cheaper (only US$25) than here. Yes, I've bought quite a few times from aquatic life aquariums as I find their prices generally cheaper than the local LFS (who also wants around $70 for the Red Sea kit) or other online sources. If I remember correctly though, the member discount is only 10%, unless they've changed that recently (I haven't bought from them in a few months).

Anyways, back to your saga , I got a bit confused. So first you used the whole Red Sea kit (including mixture), then you swapped the bottle with the JBL bottle & mixture after 2 weeks, but still using the Red Sea diffusor? The KH/pH measurement that you did, was that done when you were using the Red Sea mixture or the JBL mixture, or did you do both and compare? What do you mean when you said you kept using the JBL mixture? I thought you started with Red Sea mixture?

Just to share my experience, last night I changed my initial Red Sea mix (that had been running for 16 days) since I noticed that the bubble rate has decreased significantly. I have a bubble counter between the mix bottle and the diffusor to monitor the CO2 bubble rate. For the first 12 or so days, it would be about one bubble per second (bps), but afterwards it's slowed to about one bubble per 3-5 sec. Anyways, here's the recipe I used:
- Dissolved 2 cups of sugar in 1L warm (~40C) water in 1.5L plastic bottle
- Dissolved 1/4 tsp instant dry yeast from Woolies in 1/4 cup warm water
- Added the yeast solution to the sugar solution, mix a little, then pour the whole lot to the Red Sea bottle (had a bit extra leftover).
I left the mix to brew overnight attached to my bubble counter. Initially I had only one bubble per 5 sec, but this morning it was more than 1 bps. We'll see how long this DIY mixture lasts. BTW, if you don't want to put 2 powered diffusors in your tank (esp. with your accountant hubby watching ), you could probably put a T adapter connecting the 2 Red Sea bottles to the one diffusor.

Regarding the diffusor placement, I tried several different locations initially but the one that gave the best result (most pearling throughout the tank) was when it's about 1-2" above the substrate, on the opposite side of the tank from the filter (HOB in my case), with nothing obstructing its output (i.e. no plants etc.).

HTH!

-P

Hi upikabu

Sorry that I wasn't clear. I'll put it in numbered point form in sequence order.

1. Bought JBL C02 system,sufficient for 100L tank

2. Decided not to use JBL system & looked around for a system large enough for my tank.

3. Purchased & set up the Red Sea System in my tank, including the Red Sea mixture. I anticipated changing the mixture monthly.

4. Received advice from Tom Barr, including C02 recipe, that I should replace mixture every 10-14 days - not monthly. Tom suggested I might find it convenient to have 2 bottles, which I could alternate.

4. Red Sea bottle & mixture had been in place about 12 days, so I decided it was time to change over the bottles.

5. Prepared the JBL mixture & placed it in JBL bottle & left it to brew over night.

6. Next day, I unhooked the Red Sea bottle (containing the now used Red Sea mixture) from the tubing that leads to the Red Sea diffuser.

7. Connected JBL bottle to the Red Sea tubing, which leads to the Red Sea diffuser. (I did not use the air stone supplied by JBL.)

The KH/pH measurement that you did, was that done when you were using the Red Sea mixture or the JBL mixture, or did you do both and compare?

No KH test was done while my 1st bottle of CO2 (which was the Red Sea with Red Sea mixture) was in the tank. I did not even own a KH test kit then. The test was only done yesterday, which was day 6 of using the JBL bottle & mixture.

I'm only seeing bubbles every now and then, so I really do think that it's run out already and the JBL mixture was not sufficient. I'm hopeful my tests results will be better in a few days. I'll let you know if it improves.

Thanks for the tip about the T adapter. The accountant hubby is ever watchful. The water rates came in yesterday and there was lots of sighing, which I pretended not to notice. However, the grumbles were loudly heard today.

Regarding the diffuser placement, I think the middle rear wall is the only place for me. The right corner is out, as the filter uptake pipe is there, and the left corner is out, as too much water movement is produced by a quite forceful return of the water into to tank. (It returns about 9 cm under water, so there is not too much water surface disturbance - but there is a little. I don't think there's much I can do about that.) So, the rear wall in the middle is the furtherest point from these 2 areas of higher water movement.

PS. You're right about the 10 discount only. Sorry, my error.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Thanks for clarifying.
How are your plants' growth in response to either mixture? Do you see better growth with the Red Sea mixture or JBL one, or about the same? Do you notice any algae on glass or plants yet?

I can report that my DIY mix is giving out a lot more CO2 (at least on day 1) that the Red Sea mix. When I got home from work yesterday, the buble rate was at least 2-3bps. The Red Sea mix never got above 1bps even in the beginning. I'll give more update in my thread later.

Cheers!

-P

upikabu

How are your plants' growth in response to either mixture? Do you see better growth with the Red Sea mixture or JBL one

I'm positive it was better with Red Sea mixture.

Do you notice any algae on glass or plants yet?

None on the glass, but I think maybe some on the plants. I think my twisted vals have hair on them. It's been there a while & I can't remember if they came like that initially, or not. Is that algae?

I really liked your T adaptor idea, set it up & did a test run. It made a horrible noise when running that way. I'm sure it would have annoyed the fish, as well as me. I wonder if it was similar to the horrible clicking noise you experienced when using the same timer as the lights. So, it's now separate with 2 diffusers in the tank, waiting for the 24hr reaction time to pass. Not really happy about that, as it means 2 air tubes & 2 power point cords leading up from rear middle of tank. Quite unsightly. Don't know what else to do though - can't afford one of the proper C02 systems, which I assume would be neater. .....maybe one day when the kids leave home.

Anyway, maybe in the next week or so, I'll start a new thread & ask for advice on how to make things look a bit better in the tank.

Would you mind telling me about this bubble counter? I'd need two I guess, one for each C02 tube. Are they easy for a simpleton to set up? Is it another power point thing?

I can report that my DIY mix is giving out a lot more CO2 (at least on day 1) that the Red Sea mix.

I used Red Sea Mixture in the new bottle, and made up Tom's receipe for the spare Red Sea Bottle. But if you're getting better results with your recipe, I'll give it a go next time. Your recipe is additional sugar, but less yeast.

Okay, so now I'll check out your thread .....

Cheers
TW

Hi Robyn,

The "hair" on the vals sounds like staghorn algae or BBA. Is it green, individual strands or more reddish/black tufts of short hair?

I really liked your T adaptor idea, set it up & did a test run. It made a horrible noise when running that way.

Did you let it run for a while (at least a couple of hours)? Did it get better over time? The noise I experienced disappeared after a few hours. I wonder if in your case it's just the pump getting used to the amount of gas it's pulling. Then again, it could also be that it's not strong enough to pull gas from 2 bottles at the same time. Another alternative is to use the airstone diffusor that came with your JBL kit instead of the Red Sea diffusor pump. I assume the JBL diffusor is non-powered, so it will simply emit the gas produced by both bottles. That'll make your hubby happy.

Would you mind telling me about this bubble counter?

The bubble counter is basically a small, closed container that you fill with a bit of water and has 2 rigid tubes on the cap. Pretty simple to set up and it's not powered. all you need is a small soda bottle, 2 rigid air tubing, and something to drill 2 holes on the cap with. Or you can buy one for around $20 (much cheaper overseas). You can read more about it here:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/bubble-counter.html

EDIT: not sure why the link above looks weird when posted (it's fine in the preview). I think it's a bug - it's trying to put the "CO2" translation. Just copy the address after the http.


-P

upikabu

The "hair" on the vals sounds like staghorn algae or BBA. Is it green, individual strands or more reddish/black tufts of short hair?

Hmmm, I'll have to get back to you on that.

Did you let it run for a while (at least a couple of hours)? Did it get better over time? The noise I experienced disappeared after a few hours.

No, I didn't leave it running. The noise, which was loudish, was coming from inside the tank & I thought it would scare the fish. I tried to adjust the tubing a couple of times, but then gave up.

Another alternative is to use the airstone diffusor that came with your JBL kit instead of the Red Sea diffusor pump. I assume the JBL diffusor is non-powered, so it will simply emit the gas produced by both bottles. That'll make your hubby happy.

Hmmm, another idea I like. The JBL diffusor (air stone) requires power, via a standard air pump. I do have one that is capable of running 2 air lines, so I see 2 possibilities here:-
1. Use T adaptor & use the JBL airstone, being fed by both bottles. Advantage, 2 air tubes & 2 power cords are replaced by one tidy air tube

2. Try to get a hold of a spare JBL air stone. Means 2 air lines, instead of 1, but still much neater than what I currently have. Advantage: C02 can enter from 2 different locations in tank, which might help with even distribution. Wonder if I can just use a standard air stone? LFS said it is a special one, but I wonder????

Thanks for the bubble counter info. I'll investigate further soon.

Cheers
TW

Wonder if I can just use a standard air stone? LFS said it is a special one, but I wonder????

No, standard air stone doesn't produce fine enough bubbles for a good CO2 diffusion. You'd want a special airstone that gives off super fine microbubbles. Probably one of those limewood diffusers (there are several at aquaticlifeaquariums) would work, except they probably have to be replaced regularly. What kind of air stone does the JBL kit has? And I still wonder why it needs to be connected to an air pump though...wouldn't it just pump air into the tank instead of CO2? Do you have a link for this system?

-P

upikabu

The "hair" on the vals sounds like staghorn algae or BBA. Is it green, individual strands or more reddish/black tufts of short hair?

My vals, in general, aren't doing as well as the other plants. Some of the leaves themselves are starting to go brown - but as far as I can see the "hair" is green. Also seems to only be on green leaves. None on the leaves going brown. Do I need to do anything about this algae? Also, not happy that I've seen a couple of small snails in my tank. I take them out when I see them, as I don't want them there.

wonder why it needs to be connected to an air pump though...wouldn't it just pump air into the tank instead of CO2?

Ok, you're probably right as that makes sense. I will have to go back & read the JBL instructions (haven't re-read since original purchase - my memory is probably at fault here) http://www.jbl.de/index_uk.html The system I have is called "JBL Proflora BioCO2 100". Link doesn't take you right to the product for some reason (reverts back to English homepage) but I expect you'll be able to find it. The downside of no pump means I can't set it up on a timer. I compete in a biathlon on Thursday nights, so no time to fiddle with tanks last night (other than feed the fishies & remove another dead rasbora), but there were no bubbles coming up from the new Red Sea bottles I set up. I probably made some basic error when I wet them up. Will have to check it out tonight.

Cheers
TW

The system I have is called "JBL Proflora BioCO2 100".

Found the picture, but no mention (or pic) of an air pump. Looks just like any DIY CO2 system, except they just use an air stone diffuser at the end. Perhaps the manual will clarify.

IME corkscrew vals need plenty of light and takes a while to get established, especially in a new tank. Make sure it is not shaded by any other plants. I wouldn't worry too much about the hair algae there. Just keep up the fert dosing.

Sorry about the dead rasbora. Have you heard of a store called Slippery Little Suckers in Sydney? They import a lot of rare fish and I've heard really good things about the quality of their fishes. Not sure how far they are from you, but I personally would love to check them out someday.

-P

Thanks upikabu

I knew it wasn't in the pic, 'cause for some reason I was under the impression you had to connect to your own air pump. I thought that I read that in the instructions initially, but maybe I just assumed it because that's what you do with a normal air stones. Most likey the 2nd choice. I'll check it out at home later on.

Thanks for the fish shop link. They are not that close, but not too far away if I can't find someone I trust closer to home. Thanks for the tip.

My Vals are along the back wall, Right below where the filter box is. The lights don't start until after that area - so I guess they wouldn't get any light directly above them, but they are not shaded by other plants.

Guess I'll have to see if they pick up. I don't mind if they grow slowly, but we'll see.

Cheers
TW