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Hi All

Just got my new lights (4 x 65 W) and I am desperately looking for CO2 equipment to match ... Here is my problem: when I talk to the LFS she tells me that I do not need a reactor - it all comes out of the CO2 canister and I need only the regulator with solenoid, bubble counter and ladder to get the CO2 the most efficient way into the tank. When I read Little_Fish's first pages of his 125 G log I see that he is using a reactor!
Eco-Complete is ordered and I am looking forward to get my tank up to the technical challenge (and my own log, hopefully w/o embarrassing myself too much). Could someone clarify this please? I do not want to end up again with some useless piece of equipment. Or shall I say: the wrong type of equipment?

Hi,
I guess I don't know what a "CO2 canister" is. It could
be that it is actually a "reactor" in itself and she is
saying that you don't need a second one, which is correct.

First, to make efficient use of CO2 injection, you have to
keep the CO2 in contact with the water as long as possible.
That allows the water to absorb the CO2.

The two main ways to accomplish is by using a diffuser,
or a reactor. With a diffuser, you force the gas through
a slintered glass disk that breaks the flow into micro
bubbles. These bubbles are so small that they are subject
to the currents within the tank and the currents "blow"
the bubbles all over. This prolongs the contact with the
water as the bubbles make their way to the surface where
they burst and are lost to the atmosphere. The best
diffusers are made of slintered glass while others simply
use a screen with small openings.
A variety of the glass diffuser is to use a
lemmon wood "air stone." Lemmon wood acts as an air
stone and gives off bubbles as an air stone does but
the pores of the wood are much smaller than those of
a normal air stone, and again, the smaller bubbles
are blown about the tank by the currents.

The reactor is a chamber into which the tank water, and the
CO2 are pumped. Properly operated, all the CO2 injected
into a reactor is absorbed by the water and then the
CO2 enriched water is pumped into the tank.

Reactors are either internal or externally mounted in/on
the tank and can be really ugly and hard to hide.
Diffusers are generally small and easily hidden within
background plants. In a manner of speaking, a "ladder" is
a form of reactor although, IMO, it is not as efficent
as other reactors.

With that background, you should be able to discuss CO2
injection knowledgebly with your LFS and make a good
choice.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I guess I don't know what a "CO2 canister" is.

That would be the CO2 bottle, Frank

catdancer

If you read past page (I don't know, ), you may have seen that I switched from the reactor to a glass diffuser, but essentially both do the same, hack up the CO2 bottles into tiny bubbles that stay below the surface longer and also allow a better uptake by the plants.

Yes, you do need some form of "Reactor" - and I use this term loosely here for now. One option is a reactor as I have, another is a diffuser (that glass thingy), and yet another is - tata - the ladder you mentioned. I actually assume you are speaking of the product by Hagen, aka The Hagen Ladder.

Albeit I never had this product, I know it is supposed to work with the whole Hagen CO2 system, in itself very nice (not for me though) but certainly useless for sufficient CO2 injection in a 72G. It is meant for smaller tanks.

General advice, at least IMHO:

- Except if you get a super deal at your LFS, don't buy the CO2 equipment there. The markup of the stores usually brings the total cost way of online prices plus shipping.
- You also should look for a provider locally for the CO2 cannister (Bottle). Check out the prices at some welding supply stores in your area, and how much refilling costs there. Then compare with what the LFS would charge.

K - does that make sense?

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi Frank:

Canister as in " metal container that holds pressurized gas, as one containing tear gas that explodes on impact or one containing oxygen as part of a breathing apparatus" ... sorry for the confusion

L_F is right - I was referring to the cylinder containing CO2. My confusion arose from the fact that several online stores sell reactors together with diffusers and talk about purchasing the CO2 cylinder separately. I just wanted to get clarification. My LFS referred to the ladder as someting that they are using in their huge aquatic gardens to diffuse the gas. Looks quite like the Hagen Nutrafin kit that employs yeast. I will place an order for regulator, solenoid, diffuser and tubing w/o reactor. Thanks for your input!

Ingo:

thanks for your input, it makes sense! I noticed that somewhere between page 1 and page x you switched to the 'glass thingy' but did not find the exact description (when the switch took place), though I have read quite a bit of your logs as well as tetratechs, countryfish and matty's (I apologize to all that have to go without acknowledgment at this point ). I will order online and found the same poduct way less expensive (same reason that I ordered my new light fixtures instead of buying by walk in). It is kind of sad though, as this store does a fantastic job when it comes to livestock, general maintenance and other services.

So, when I finally have the CO2 equipment (probably next week), the Eco-complete(hopefully this weekend) I can order plants and astart to ctually redo the tank. I plan on leaving some of my old gravel on the bottom as I do not want to completely take out everything, but to cover it generously with EC. Is this possible? Currently I am still blanking on the layout (will have to gawk more at other tanks) before I can actually start bothering people here with pics of my tank.

It is a testament to my unsurpassed ability to grow BGA in the presence of nitrates

It is kind of sad though, as this store does a fantastic job when it comes to livestock, general maintenance and other services.

And that is exactly what you should use your LFS for. With all the love that I have for my LFS, I cannot afford to support it by paying at least 1.5 times the online price of hardware. The only hardware I buy at the LFS are tanks and stands, as online shipping would make them overall way more expensive, plus the fact that I get a tank that is not scratched or worse, without the hassle of having to send it back.

Did you already order your CO2 equipment? If so, what is it (in detail, like brand and such)?

as I do not want to completely take out everything, but to cover it generously with EC. Is this possible?

Yes, it is, but I would strongly advise against it. Check out my 20G and 29G logs, much shorter in lenght, to see various examples of a)redoing a tank without changing the substrate andb) with substrate change. I am most certain that you will create a huge mess when attempting to place the Eco in the tank with water and what-not already in there. Not to mention that in the end it will take you longer, IMHO.

Also, if you want to maintain some old gravel (as I did for both 20 and 29 when adding Eco) you should make sure that it is only a thin layer at the bottom, covered by at least 2 inches of Eco. Mixing of both will occur when you plant/replant the tank and some of it will end up on top. The lower the gravel is the less will be visible in the end.

Enough for now,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

thanks again for your input, Ingo!

And that is exactly what you should use your LFS for. With all the love that I have for my LFS, I cannot afford to support it by paying at least 1.5 times the online price of hardware

My softspot for some of the people there ... but you are soo right and it is even more than 1.5 times!

After clarification regarding the necessity for a reactor i did some queries online and basically found three brands that are everywhere: JBJ, Milwaukee and Azoo. All three are offered as a package of Co2 regulator with solenoid, bubble counter, diffuser and sometimes timer (a minor thing in the package). the buble counter that is contained in the Azoo package looks kind of cheap compare to JBJ , though. APC had a poll a year ago and JBJ and Azoo are the most commonly used ones ... there were some compalints about JBJ being 'fixed' and when self adjusted tending to 'leak' which could be easily fzed. Azoo was reported as nice but with limited experience in the use of the piece. I guess it is okay if I go with JBJ?

Decisions, decisions

How important (critical?) is it to include a pH controller? I check water quality frequently with test kits and would like to lower the pH of the water for the discus a bit. Would be another big expensive right now ...

I checked your logs and will continue to do so (very informative for newbies to this part of the hobby and you are doing a great job ). My kudos with respect to this to all frequent loggers!! I saw a pic of one of your tanks stripped bare down to the substrate and that is when I got the idea to do it with my tank. I plan on leaving only a thin layer of my old substrate and to cover it with eco-complete as you suggested.

Hi,
Sorry for the confusion, I've never heard of a tank of
gas, or a Bottle of gas being called a "Canister."
Ah well..

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

catdancer,

I would say that none of the regulators you listed is perfect, but the ones that are are really expensive (like having a needle valve that alone costs between $80 and $100). I can't afford that

I got my regulator from Aquarium Plants Dot Com, they also have other CO2 related equipment, but I would not buy a bottle online ($$$). They sell the "Milwaukee" regulator, but I think you need to order an extra check valve (avoiding tank water back flow), not sure anymore. They used to have a modified version of this regulator with a valve built in (which is on my 125G), but I guess they stopped messing with that one in favor of the new regulator they build, the "AQUARIUMPLANTS.com's Co2 Regulator" which I have on my 40G. Is it worth the extra money? Probably not.

I don't think you would need a ph controller, I have one and don't use it, . I did have a CO2 overload a few weeks ago in the 40G though, and a ph controller would have stopped this from happening. Nevertheless, I still did not hook it up yet. It basically eases your mind (safety) and helps in particular the people in our hobby that work with really high CO2 content in their water, like 60 and more ppm.

Glad to read that you are not planning on replacing the substrate with water in the tank, it would have been really messy.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes, Ingo is right, none are perfect but I have two milwaukee regulators from aquarimplants.com and they are both still working, one I've had almost two years. First time around a bought my bottle from a local supplier, but the second time around a did buy both the regulator and bottle from aquariumplants.com. I received both without a hitch. Just get the regulator that comes with a bubble counter and soleniod (turn off at night) and that's all you need, plus of course a diffusor.

My Scapes

thanks guys
and sorry for not expressing my gratitude earlier - snowed under with work is all I can offer as apology ...

Now - I got the Eco-Complete (after threatening bodily harm to my LFS in order to get it in), youza! Ordered CO2 (JBJ instead of milwaukee, simply because I don't want to add playing around to get the check valve installed to the list of what to do), tubing, timer, fertilizers. Now I have to get a CO2 canister (cylinder) and ...

How many diffusers do I need for a 72 G tank? I am confused as my thoughts are diffusing ... is there a certain size that I need? Some of these tulip-shaped glass structures limit the size of the tank they can provide for... eg the Rhinox series comes in different sizes and I haven't found one yet that is specifically stated for 72 G.

catdancer,

Things are coming together, great

About diffusers and such. There are at least 3 options, probably lots more. The first one would be an internal reactor like this one from Plant Guild]http://www.plantguild.com/Web_DSC01438.jpg[/link]. I had that one for quite a while in my 125G, it did what it had to do, but I found its maintenance to complex and size to bulky. Then there is the option of an external reactor, either DIY (Matty can tell you how to build it) or purchased. I thing Drs Foster and Smith offer one. Last but not least, there is the one that is known in general as a diffuser. [link=Here]http://a1272.g.akamai.net/7/1272/1121/20060224175816/www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/lg_14036_FS21192D.jpg[/link] is a small one from the Drs site, and [link=here]http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8236/comparerhw7.jpg[/link] is the Rhinox, with various sizes of it. Basically the diameter of the ceramic plate defines the tank size in which it should be used (and of course the quality of the product itself). If I understand the info on the Rhinox right then the 5000 is for tanks over 40G and sure will do for you. [link=This is the size that I use on my 125G now, and the 40G has a 3 coil one. the coils do actually nothing, I guess they are supposed to indicate that more coils = larger capacity, .

Hope this helps,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo:

thanks again for your input! Just ordered the Amano style 'tulip' with 9(!) coils (I counted ...) from everybody's favorite auction site. Until it arrives I will do with the 'ladder'. Now I have to decide on the general lay out and plants I want to add to my mix consisting mostly of giant vals, swords, a few E. tenellus that had survived the 'night light' conditions and crypts. Pic of the mess coming soon

Now I have to decide on the general lay out and plants

I don't remember if you already did that, but if not:

First you have to decide on the general layout of the hard scape, aka rocks and wood. And if you are not planning to add any of these, change your mind !

Any planted tank without hardscape will be rather boring after a short while, as if something were missing from the scape (and it is).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo's right. You need something to 'build' around, something to anchor different parts of the scape. Without them your tank will wind up looking flat. Have you considered anything specific?

---

Back in the saddle!

Wellll-

I have this tank up and running for quite a while and it contains 4 large pieces of driftwood as well as some slates (rock). I am not particularly happy with the driftwood pieces as they are mainly useful to provide shelter in form of caves to bottom dwellers (I never see my cories...). Okay - I will upload a pic as soon as I have a minute! No complaints please but constructive criticism - I know that it is in desperate need of improvement

I am considering petrified wood as an addition (not only because of tetratech's glamorous display tank). I am using petrified wood in my 20 g long breeder tank and it looks quite nice

No complaints please but constructive criticism

Well, isn't that what we always give you ?



Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

yes, you do

It is more of a plea for mercy for the things to come (struggling with my awkward aquascaping attempts and silly questions that i will ask). Seriously, I am lookimg forward to all input and the advice I got did help me out a lot already! Looks like my CO2 equipment will not arrive before Monday, which pushes the new set up back to next weekend. I will have to decide on the layout anyway first, plus order some plants for it. I will put up either a pic or a drawing of what I have currently at hand to get some suggetions if possible

hi catcancer

I found your log Glad to see you have your C02 needs all sorted out. You'll enjoy the difference it makes to your tank. I'll be watching your log closely too, as it's similar to the one I'm planning (72G, hi-tech planted tank with pressurised C02 & Discus). What dimensions are your tank?

I look forward to your first pictures. Glad you're a premie, so we should see lots of pics, now won't we

See you for now.

Cheers
TW

Hey Catdancer, great to see another log here at FP . Sounds like you have got things running along nicely . Love to see some more details of your plans . Maybe we can help ?

Pics of the tank and gear etc will help as well .

Good Luck and Enjoy .
Garry