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Garry:

thanks for checking in! I ordered a CO2 tank today as it was impossible to get a decnetly priced used one locally!

I will spend the rest of the evening reading the manual of my camera to finally take reasonable shots of the entire tank. I will post them ASAP. Tomorrow I will attempt to complete the 'refurbishing', may have to pick up some additional plants as I would really like to get a front cover in some parts. Do you have Lilaeopsis in your tank?

CatDancer

What kind of camera you got? I would suggest that if you set the camera up on its highest image, then take the shot at a slight angle you wont get any light reflections. Hopefully that will give ya a start. I have a Cannon Rebel Xti and im still getting the hang of it hehe.

Shane

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

hey cat dancer i pm'ed you about spare co2 but then i noticed that frank already mentioned having a spare. just in case you dont get that message, i stated that paintball gun bottles are cheap and direct matches. the only problem is paintball bottles are only 1Lb bottles so they would be severly short term bottle (backup only) unless on a reall small tank

*click *flash *click "whered he go???"

catdancer,

Long time no entry, but here I am:

What is wrong with L. repens? I used to have it in my 29G and it can be a nice plant as a background to midground group.

L. grandulosa raises the water hardness? How would it go about doing that? Hardness is mostly calcium (for GH) or carbonates (for KH) and this would mean that the plant releases eiter or into the water column. Sounds like bull to me, but one never finishes to learn.

I am not so fond of your redo procedure , very risky. In particular with the Laterite in the old substrate. I would suggest loads of water changes, maybe 40% every other day at least. You released loads of iron into the water column with the laterite being exposed to the water, and stirred up. Adding the Eco may also have caused some leaching of ferts from it into the water when passing through the remaining 30% of water.

Well, I sure hope I am making something out of nothing here and all will settle just nicely.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi,
Running the CO2 24/7 or turning it off with the lights...
It's a debate that has been going on for years. Mostly
the advocates are folks who are trying to conserve money.

If you turn off the CO2 with the lights, then the pH will
change, as the CO2 saturation shifts downward toward the
normal 15mg/l level. Now, this happens in nature,
but possibly not as much in a lake or stream as it
would in a small aquarium. In an aquarium the
effect could be a larger swing.

The gas is not that expensive. A 5 pound bottle lasts me
nearly 6 months at 2 bubbles per second, and the refill is
only $9 and some change for tax.

Folks who turn the gas off and on with the lights use a
valve (Cut off valve) that is connected to the light timer.
Not a true "Controller."

A "Controller" has inputs (jacks) that are connected to
various probes. One of them is a pH probe. The probe is
immersed in the tank water, and the controller is set to
maintain a specific pH, +/- a small amount. For instance
you could set your controller to, say, 6.6 and the
controller will, through the use of the cut off valve,
turn the gas on to reach the 6.6 pH setting, and then turn
the gas off when 6.6 is reached. As the water gives up its
CO2 and the pH rises, the probe will sense that rise, and
the controller will turn the gas on again to bring the pH
back down to the desired setting. You control the amount
of "swing" that occurs between the pH High and Low values
by adjusting the controller tolerance.

Some folks will use a timer to turn off the CO2 and turn
on an air pump and air stone when the lights go out, and
then reverse the process when the lights come on.

The whole discussion is based on the plants themselves.
During the night period, plants shift from giving off O2
to using O2. The fear (mostly, really unjustified)
is that the fish using O2 and giving off CO2 combined
with the plants now using O2, will deprive the fish of
the necessary O2 to live and they (the fish) could die of
suffocation. Rather than risk this, and to conserve CO2
gas, they turn off the tanks at night and/or they turn on
an air pump and air stone at night.

It's all really unnecessary. The only way the fish will
"suffer" is if that tank is so crammed with fish that it
resembles a tank full of "feeders" at your LFS that has
just been stocked with a new order and they are all gasping
at the surface for air. I dare say that none of us stock
our tanks that heavily. The plants simply do not use that
much O2 that the fish will be deprived. That leaves the
old $$$ as the reason for purchasing a very expensive piece
of equipment and accessories, just to save pennies on a
tank of gas.

The way to tell if the fish are distressed by the overnight
lack of O2 is to come down to the tank first thing in the
morning. If the fish are at the surface gasping for air
then the O2 is depleted and you should move some fish to
make room, or add an air pump and air stone. Be sure that
they don't know you are there and are simply begging for
food.

Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hi Ingo:

Nice to hear from you again! Regular water changes are exactly what I did and I started with a rigorous cleaning of the gravel a while ago knowing that it would have to go anyway. Water changes were done every other day to remove 'dust particles', thankfully the water never turned cloudy. Would I do it this way again? Certainly not! It was a decision on the spur of the moment based on my coleagues description of his recent redo, plsu I remembered the tantrum two of my discus threw when I netted them out of the quarantine tank.
Today I will continue with the 'mudslide'. For the remaining portion of the tank I know by now where the laterite is located and will leave this part untouched to keep it as a thin layer underneath the Eco. You think this will be okay?

What is wrong with L. repens?

Nothing, I am very fond of this plant and think about getting some more.. or do you think thee is something wrong with mine in the photo?

L. grandulosa raises the water hardness? How would it go about doing that?

My point, when I read this first I thought 'what a bunch of BS", then I came across an 'experiment' someone had performed placing this plant and a different one in separate but identical set ups and noticed a raise in hardness. I am with you, does not make any sense at all. The plants I got were freebies and pretty chewed up, however, there are already new leaves! One thing that I do not like about them is the description of shrub like appearance when bigger with stems that appear wood-like...

The plant I am not so fond of is the R. indica, it looked quite different in the dealers tank so I did not make the connection to R. rotundifolia, which I personally do not consider this attractive. On theother hand, it might turn into a pleasant surprise with my lighhting and CO2.

Thanks and looking forward to getting more input!

Hi fishmonster (shane):

I have a Sony Cybershot 5.0 DSC-V1 and for quite a while. It works great for most applications but the 'decent photos of aquarium' project is unsatisfactory at the moment. My problem is being reluctant to read manuals ... or any manuals to be precise

Hi Frank and sodaaddict:

thanks again for your input! I just ordered a 10 lb bottle and will get a used smaller one as a back up to prevent CO2 deficiency during refilling time (it takes at least one day). I hope that the 10 lb will last me for quite a while. The pH where I am is 7.4 when it comes out of the tab, but it decreased to 6.6 - 6.8 when I supplemented the 72 g with the Hagen Nutrafin system (2x). My tanks are not heavily stocked and I will test for pH swings during the initial set up period. BTW, got all the equipment to shut off (was included in the combo set up). No reasonable priced used tanks available hee but several refill stations close by, i guess that is not too bad.

What is wrong with L. repens?

See, I had too much to read to catch up, LOL.

Yeah, I typed wrong but meant R. indica/rotundifolia. If the pics are still there then you can see it in early shots of my 29 log. Tetratech also used it, or still does, in his 72G.

L. grandulosa - if you can, put a link up to that site where someone makes the hardness statement. Not that I don't trust you, but I would like to see what else this person has to say

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Not that I don't trust you,

Watch it!

this is the first link, will try to find the other one as well, it is on APC, held in such high esteem... I read it again and it is not entirely clear to me how different the set ups were, there is also no follow up on this

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plant-physiology-emersed-culture/40799-ludwigia-peruensis-raises-kh.html

The posting is pretty recent and I was tempted to ask this member about the final result and his conclusion as to the source of carbonate in his set up

catdancer,

Once in a while I am in an argumentative mood, but currently I am not. If I were then I would add some entries to that bartoli guy's threads, but as I am not I am only going to rant here .

That is a lot of BS. Here is the typical case of someone advancing in the hobby and desperately trying to leave a footprint. Unfortunately, what he says is mostly unfounded. He uses Black Earth mixed with dolomite lime. There is your reason. I got this info by looking into other threads he participated in. That one is from HERE. Obviously, he has a lot of chemical reactions going on in his tank, he ain't Ms. Walstad.

In one more THREAD he mentions the KH raising discovery again, but gets shut down right away .

Anyway, just my opinion.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Gee thanks!

Admittedly, I don't even have the nerve and energy to follow up with someone like that. Dolomite lime ... and it leached more in one tank than the other, great!

The 'mudslide' is over and the Eco Complete has replaced the old gravel/laterite substrate. Over the last couple of weeks I added several more plants and removed the vast majority of Vals which had taken over the entire tank. I also removed two pieces of driftwood to have more room for plants and swimming for the inhabitants of the tank. The first 'invasive procedure' was bleach treatment of two anubias. Acknowledgements to Mike F. and his nice description on the NJAGC web site!

The second invasive procedure was removal of the Vals (>200 !), these plants had taken over the entire tank as they adapted readily to the 'nightlight' conditions (64 W for 72 G ... thanks again to the LFS who sold me this as sufficient for a planted tank ), most other plants did not adapt and the rapid accumulation of degraded biomaterial led to a situation that was very becoming to the frowth aof organisms a little bit lower on the evolutionary ladder. The first picture shall serve as a nice example!

Everything is in place except the CO2 set up - I will receive the tank next week. The lights are on for 8 hours with 130 W with a burst of 4 hours with full power of 260 W for the time w/o CO2.

I promise to post more pics of the entire tank (admittedly NO scape at all at the moment!)



and after treatment:

and a 'round fish'

Acknowledgements to Mike F. and his nice description on the NJAGC web site!

LOL, are you following our entries over there?

So you must have seen pictures of my tank setups in the event section, right?

Glad to hear that the bleaching seems to have worked, I remember that I overdid it once and although all looked good initially all leaves of the anubias eventually died

Be careful with the high light and no addition of CO2, or are you adding Excel daily?

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So you must have seen pictures of my tank setups in the event section, right

Yup! I went there after seeing your display "Proud member ..." I greatly admire your set ups, although I hardly ever reply on fishprofiles - simply because I feel I do not have much to contribute aside from "Great, beautiful, etc" and that gets boring quickly. I lack the imagination for improvement of already sophisticated tanks. So here you have my praise for all of them!

or are you adding Excel daily?

Every day for quite a while already, even before I found out that the major source of the plant die off was weak lighting.

catdancer, Glad to hear everything is going well . Can't wait to see some full tank shots

Garry

Garry thanks!

I finally read my camera's manual (all 112 pages!) and got some first full shots of the tank yesterday. A little bit mre playing around and I will post them. Your time as aquascape judge will come soon

Some household chores in the tank: dusting of plants and filters, there was a fine film of left over laterite covering all surfaces. Sucked it out to prevent the formation of a 'sticky bottom' for organic growth. The tank looks pretty empty without the loads of Vals. Especially height is missing. Removed one stem (better: stick) of the chewed up L. glandulosa, all the other plants look healthy and the stem plants are definitely growing.

I remember that I overdid it once and although all looked good initially all leaves of the anubias eventually died

a little trick: I used an already damaged leave (unsuccessful manual removal of algae) as 'indicator': excessive bleaching (time wise) becomes quickly apparent in damaged tissue as the chloroplasts containing the chlorophyll are faster accessed than in healthy leaves. At the first sight of discoloring I removed the plants and started with the rinsing and neutralization. Sofar so good, but of courses, only time will tell

Hi catdancer. Wow, that bleaching seemed to work a treat. Would you mind either expanding on how you do it, including the trick "indicator of excessive bleaching" or maybe giving the link for the info? Several of my anubias could do with a good dunk too. Had considered getting some cherry shrimp to do the job, but apparently, our round fish would make short work of them. I can't quite see them doing it though somehow - they are such bad shots when it comes to aiming for food. I'm sure the cherry's would have time to get away. What do you think?

Anxiously waiting to see the new pics, now that you've read your manual

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

here is the link :
http://www.njagc.net/articles/mikes38gmakeover.htm

The little trick works this way: your anubias has a leave that appears to be damaged (a little hole, damaged surface, tears with light browning or otherwise disintegration around the edges). You place the plant in the bath and watch. It will take several minutes (~ 3) before you notice any effects at all. Finally the algae will turn grayish or slightly yellow, depending on the type you are dealing with. You may wonna scrup a leave lightly to see if the algae comes off. If not, watch for discoloration of the damaged leave! As soon as you see the first signs of yellowing, you take the plant out and start rinsing it under fresh water. Follow with several baths of fresh tap water and add generous swigs of dechlorinator. Mike F. describes it pretty well. I mostly followed his suggestions.

Cherry Shrimps: I do not trust my discus! 3 of them aren't bad shots at all, only the Primadonna is ... you should see a 4.5 inch discus balancing in almost horizontal position under a tenellus leave just to get to a wafer that dropped there! Not to mention the feeding frenzy on Bloodworm-Day. Amano shrimp however are bigger and they might stand a chance. BTW, I got two SAE and they are busy hunting algae

Yep, I am improving with the camera, stay tuned



If you need conversion "cup" to metric I can provide it

That is a great link, thanks for that.

If you need conversion "cup" to metric I can provide it

Thanks, that would be great. Or even, if you know how many metric mls are in your US cup. I've been caught out before, 'cause I think even our tspn's are different. We have 20ml to a teaspoon, but I think you have 15ml (or do I still have that wrong)

Oh well, guess there's no cherry shrimp in my future. You confirm what everyone else has said about discus & cherry's

EDIT - So your discus are good shot? Mine must need to be fitted with glasses

Cheers
TW

Ok, let the German explain you the American volume,

2 cups = 1 pint
2 pints = 1 quart
4 quarts = 1 gallon
1 gallon (US) = 3785 mL

Ergo: 1 gallon = 16 cups
And: 1 cup = 3785 / 16 = 236.56 mL

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Ingo.

Our cup = 250ml, so there is a difference between your "cup" and ours.

Cheers
TW

Thanks for the conversion, Ingo! What's driving me up the wall is the fact that there is not even consistence with the conversion!! Anyway, it does not matter as long as the same (accurate or inaccurate) measure is applied for the substance to be diluted and the diluent.
BTW, you are still the world record holder (at least to me) with your "less than 1/16 of a tsp"

Mine must need to be fitted with glasses

Well, inbreeding and all that ...
I am also the proud owner of the subspecies "flying discus". Mine jump frequently out of the water to get food - including the primadonna.

Back to plants: picked up some wisteria, Ludwigia repens red (love the color) and some Hemianthus micranthemoides. L_F (Ingo) got me worried re excessive nutrients floating freely through the tank due to left over laterite and Eco Complete so I figured some fast growers might be helpful. I did my usual water change before the planting and 'dusted' leaves followed by a generous swig from the Excel bottle (STILL no CO2 tank !!!). There is definitively growth, while the chewed up L. glandulosa stems have lost all larger leaves, small new ones are sprouting along the stems and the R. indica is growing as well. The tank looks like an ill-designed flower bed by now ... photos tomorrow!

you are still the world record holder (at least to me) with your "less than 1/16 of a tsp

Who? Me?

Nah, many people do that. I actually don't take exact measurements anymore when adding such small quantities. Instead I use the 1/8 tsp and fill it only a tiny bit (for the 20G) or a less than tiny bit (for the 29G), or an almost medium bit (for the 40G) or an almost full (for the 125G) when adding P to my tanks.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

catdancer, Sounds like you've got lots of plants now , so its time to show us the tank !
Look forward to the Photo's

Garry

Yep,
I got lots of new plants. Some pics for starters (I work late and have to rush to take some photos while all the lights , meaning 260 W are on). Also, finally got my CO2 tank today so there is hope that I will not substitute this tank with Excel all the time. Front shot


right side

Some more detail
and my 'round fish'

I have to play around with the light a bit more, so please accept my apologies for the quality

catdancer,

looking very nice, are you interested in detailed analysis at this point or should we hold off for a while?

Overall though, you can use some more plants, you are about medium planted, IMHO.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

L_F:

Go ahead, that's what I am here for!! It is already very interesting to learn that in your opinion the tank is only medium planted, I thought it was stuffed

Looking forward to constructive criticism and learning

Hey, that looks like a really nice set up & much more roomy looking than my 43G. Your full shot shows a good mix of plants Vs free swimming space, which I think is needed for your larger fish.

Maybe some more ground cover - though I also like to see a little open gravel.

BTW, I found this link & thought you might be interested. You may already have read it though. http://aquaticconcepts.thekrib.com/Articles/PAM_Discus.htm

Sounds & looks like it is all coming together for you. Glad you finally have the C02 tank.

Cheers
TW

The tank looks really nice. I love the flat peice of wood. Nice contours. The plants all look real healthy. The 'round fish' are beautiful too. Great work!

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Robyn:

thanks for the link! I did not come across this one and will check it out

much more roomy looking than my 43G

Keep in mind that it is a 72 G the tank does look much more roomy since I completed the redo. Before, the vals had taken over the entire tank and I had two additional pieces of driftwood, which took up a lot of swimming room for the fish. Which, BTW, have nothing better to do than sticking to the front glass begging for food ...

Maybe some more ground cover

I like to have that but I guess I have to be patient .. Lilaeopsis does not appear to be a fast grower.

Hey, where is the critcism? Don't be shy

Matty,

thanks! Don't hesitate to criticise - I want to improve my aquascaping skills, though I know I have to be patient as I just finished the new set up

It is already very interesting to learn that in your opinion the tank is only medium planted, I thought it was stuffed

As I have 5 min between meetings, I will respond briefly now to just this point.

The most obvious part is that the entire front of the tank is pretty much open, as in "not planted at all", that is at least 1/4 of the entire available space.
Then, when looking to the midground, one can see quite a few open spaces between the individual plant groups, sure not as much as the foreground, but never-the-less.
And the background sees rather large gaps between the individual plant species and within the stem group between the single stems.

And that's why

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Cat , Gotta go along with Ingo . More is better with one reservation in that you could wait till things grow in to see where you need more plants .
But if it were me , I'd follow Ingo's advice and get the mid ground and background stuffed with plants and worry about the foreground later .
Up to you though and the look you want .
Have you got some idea on where you want to take the scape .? Lots of great sites out there with plenty of good ideas if you want some help.

Good looking tank with lots of potential .
Well done .

Garry

L_F 9Ingo)

thanks for popping in between meetings I see what you mean. Well, I hope that the plants will spread and plan to fill the gaps in the background with cuttings, I also asked the plant lady at my LFS to look for some specific plants they do not have on their regular order list to get the midground filled in. I am not opposed to have the gravel exposed (partially) as I like the color and looks of the Eco. Jus saw that two of the dwarf sags have formed runners and the tenellus start feeling better as well. they are located right corner front. Lilaeopsis is apparently a painstakingly slow grower but it ws the only forground plant that was available in stores and in decent condition. I did not want to try the expensive little pots of HC ...
The tall bacjground plant to the right (I am embarrased to admit that I always forget the name of this plant) has grown considerably and touches almost the surface ... to trim or not to trim?

Enough of the rambling, I am happy to get input and suggestions, looking forward to more. Also, I will start asking questions re fertilizer, right now I am anxious to do in this department

Have you got some idea on where you want to take the scape

I know it is embarrasing, but I have to admit "not really ... yet". All my imagination is spend on work and this is the first time that I can grow plants (submersed)! All my previous attempts failed due to lack of lighting. I thought I let the plants grow in and (hopefully) will get an idea as the tank comes along. Nevertheless, I am open to suggestions and looking around.

thanks for your input!

I am also the proud owner of the subspecies "flying discus". Mine jump frequently out of the water to get food - including the primadonna.

Do you mean they jump right out & you've had to rescue them. Mine have certainly splashed me & the carpet, but not jumped right out. I have been warned that discus are jumpers & jump right out of the tank, so wondered if you mean yours have done the same.

Cheers
TW

update week 2 after redo:

there is growth, mainly of stem plants and I did some trimming following L_Fs advice to fill gaps. trimmed tops were lanted inot the substrate and the rummies are hiding in the thicket ...Picture before

and after


Unfortunately, there is some other growth as well not that I am completely surprised ...

Did an ddditional water change and will perform another one during the week, also got 5 tiny otos, they are hanging out in the QT. BTW, the SAE are very talented in catching thawed brine shrimp .

My bachelor M. ramirezi met his new bride, she is still only half his size, below the object of his newfound affection:

and the admirer

hanging out together , sorry for the blurriness of the last photo.

Cat , love the shots of the M. ramirezi . Very nice fish , trust they will fall in love .

Like what you have done with the trimming .
Still think you need a big bunch of Swords or Vals in the rear . I would fill up the left side.
You could get a very nice look with Vals or Large Crypts in groups in the Mid ground as well .
Check out this site's Gallery .
http://www.aquariumdesigngroup.com/
Some great ideas here .

Hope this helps

Garry

Hi Garry,

I am getting better taking shots of fish, apparently not with the tank and plants. The right side and the middle back portion of the tank are stuffed. Really, I planted all the cut off tops there. The right side is still sparse but that is due to several big swords and I am reluctant to plant very dense because of them. I added some more plants that are not in the tank shot when the photo was taken, here they are
Nice Windelov to the left next to HM. I hope it will grow!
Bronze Crypt in front section middle/right with an SAE giving it a first cleaning


Unfortunately, there were no forground plants in decent condition available. I guess I have to be patient with Lilaeopsis, it is a VERY slow grower! Any suggestions here? Tenellus is sending out runners and so do dwarf sags but L is just hanging in there

Well, the aquascape might be an eyesore to some, but the rams like it and they spawned already! I am not holding my breath for surviving wrigglers as the other inhabitants are already watching ...

The rams were supposed to go to the 10 G for breeding - I had many successful spawns as well as hatching in the past in this tank. They will move soon as they will spawn again soon.

On a sad note: I lost one of the two surviving cories , as usual without any signs of ill health

Well, the aqua scape might be an eyesore to some

Why do you say that? I like what you've done with it

Good luck with the spawn.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Robyn, this is very kind of you!
I am a bit annoyed with myself (and the lack of a grand layout idea), plus the lack of growth of the foregound plants is getting on my nerves. Wisteria could also do a bit better ... on the other hand, and of course, the lower life forms are perking up!!!

On top of this, my SAE decided to forget about their middle initial and to go by SE instead. Brine shrimps and pellets are so much more to their liking!

(and their is an 'Error on page' which does not allow me to insert any smilies and pictures!). Not that I am in the mood for a traditional smilie, the grumpy and upset version would be a more appropriate choice ...

Oh well, the first spawn of the little female ram and her eager spouse turned into a much welcomed meal - as expected. I did another 30% water change during the week followed by the ususal one yesterday. Apparently, I introduced the "discus rage" virus as the primadonna discus who is lowest on the totem pole decided that enough is enough and started kicking back with a vengeance. By now, the tail fin of my smallest blue diamond is nipped and the fish is still on a rampage!! I might as well head for the medicine cabinet for prophylactic treatment against infection.

Cat , Hope I didn't give you the impression that your tank doesn't look good .
Sorry if thats the case.
It looks fantastic , my suggestions are just that .
I got a lot of advice ,ideas and help from this forum but I didn't take it all on board .
I like Robyn think you're doing a fantastic job and it will only look even better with time .

Keep your chin up !!!!!

Garry

Ahhhhh!

Garry, please! I WANT criticism, what are you apologizing for!

Due to the aforementioned change in diet of the SAE another trip to the LFS was in order:


These little guys are right now the riot of the tank, constantly up and down. They look like offspring of the SAE. They appear a bit oiverwhelmed by the culinary possibilities


I decided not to trim the stem plants this weekend but allow them to grow a bit more. The rotala is getting bushy and there are nice side shots visible, L. repens is also stretching. The foregound, however, is still pretty bare. A picture of the 'mobbing victim' at the end:

CD

A Fabulous tank you have here. I have no idea how you get the rams to live. i really need some help on that. Anyways I love the tank and the colors of the plants and fish.

Shane

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Shane,

thanks for your kind words. I have kept and spawned M. ramirezi (the 'German' ram) for many years during the first phase of my fish addiction and now again. I find them actually not difficult to keep, however, there are a few things to pay attention to:

1) These fish can be heavily inbred rendering them very susceptible to disease. I have seen plenty of washed out looking, slightly deformed fish at stores. Stay away from those! What you want is a fish that has a bright yellow color with black, blue and pinkish (if it is a female) undertones. If the fish are more yellowish-white, pass them on. The stomach of the fish should not be curved in and the fish should appear inquisitive and lively.

2) Rams do best in planted tanks with fairly soft, slightly acidic water. I say 'fairly' as they can live in moderately hard water very well. One of my canister filters contains peat. The water temperature should be relatively high, low to mid 80s. My fish spawn regularly in a 10 gallonpartially filled with RO water.

3) These fish are senstitive to nitrates. You want to keep the nitrate between 10 - 20. If you notice changes in behaviour (for example hiding of otherwise actively swimming fish) get the test kit out and get redy for a water change.

4) They can live well on flakes, but will be so much hardier if provided with frozen foods. These little guys are carnivores. Mine eat frozen brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, bloodworms and beefheart aside from pellets.

Hope this helps and good luck!

CD

That helps alot. I think it was the nitrates that have killed them in the past. What kind of peat are we talking about in the Filter and how do you know how much to use to lower the PH. I had my rams live for about 3-4 weeks before they passed on last time which is longer than any other time. I may try again after i can get some of the fish out of my 35 Gallon

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Shane:

I have an Eheim filter and am using the Eheim filter moss. One package goes per filter, I never noticed that this peat colors the water. Basically, you can use one pack for your tank as well. Now, I know that some of the commercial breeder/importer in my area use the Hagen peat granules, which supposedly are much more efficient to lower the pH. However, they color the water, a NO if you are concerned about light getting to demanding plants (Ingo's experience with his Alternanthera reineckii as an example). What is the pH of your water? it is quite possible that you do not have to do anything!

PH is 7.6 - 7.8 depending on which tank i use because the parents have a water softener which lowers the PH

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Week 5 after makeover:

I did not trim the plants last week. The tank before trimming:


The hygrophila polysperma (what a shock when I found out that it is considered an intrusive plant ) has reached the surface and I am suspecting that it added to the lack of growth problem of the wisteria next to it. Here is the tank after the 'cut':


What else: I changed the lighting cycle from 9 hours without a break (4.5 hours with 260 W, the remaining time 130 W only) to 5 hours in the morning, starting with 2 hours at 130, 2.5 hours full power and 0.5 hour 130 W followed by 3 hours of lights out. Then another light cycle of 0.5 hour 130, 4 hours full power and 0.5 hours 130 W again.

Some more plants were added: R. wallichii, another C. wendtii, this time the bronze colored cariety. A couple of weeks ago I had place a request for L. repens 'rubin' or Alternanthera reineckii with my LFS. Well, something went wrong and they got R. macrandra!!!

As soon as I entered the store a sales person jumped at me to ask me take those plants of their hands ... I ended up with 3 x of them, paid for only two. Half of the plants were mush when I got home ... and 50% of the R. wallichii had lost ALL leaves! Not to mention that these plants are not exactly easy to keep and I am a newbie at planted tanks

Here is a pic of the Crypt and the 'Red Butterfly'
These are the shortest ones (I had to cut most of the stems due to condition of leaves and stems)
The Indian intruder cuttings will make their way to the LFS tomorrow - apparently it is okay to sell as long as one does not transport across state lines. The plant is also sold by various companies and Amano uses it in some of his set ups. No problem here if some blooming ... releases it into the wild, the winter will take care of it...

catdancer, Tank looks fantastic . Like the look of the red plants as well , even if they are not the right ones
(Don't you hate it when LFS's get it wrong).
You have got C02 and plenty of light so they might be ok , hope so .
So it take it from what you said about the Hygro that you are pulling it out . What are you going to replace it with ?
You need some fast growers, if not Hygro are you going to rely on the Wisteria or get something else for the Hygro?

Does the Angel get along with the Discus btw?

Love the Photos well done , love to see some shots of the other inhabitants .

Garry

Tank looks fantastic . Like the look of the red plants as well , even if they are not the right ones

Like an exploded flower bed!

(Don't you hate it when LFS's get it wrong).

What upset me the most is the fact that they were waiting for me to show up instead of calling to let me know that they got them in! When I finally did they've been tightly wrapped with plant weights in a low light tank for almost 3 weeks (Past experience told me to wait for a phone call, plus the store is located in a suburb)
The discus and the angel get along very well. There is no aggression between these fish despite the fact that the angel is fully grown. Thinking about getting some 'round fish' yourself?

I am not replacing the hygro - the cuttings will go to the LFS, I would not dare to take out these fast growers, at least not at this point. Besides, I think this is a nice plant. Now, if only the Wisteria, Ludwigia and Rotala would grow faster ... Stargrass would be nice and C. balansae to replace the Vals, but I don't want to place another order with the LFS.

Despite the light and CO2 I am concerned about the Macrandra, I read that this is a notoriously difficult plant to keep!

Pics of other inhabitants coming soon! Any layout suggestions?

Wow, your tank is really coming along. Looks beautiful. Those splashes of red really brighten it up. Hope the Macrandra works out for you, as Gary says, you have the light & the C02 so all might be ok.

Just curious - what is your water change routine (eg, how much / how often).



Cheers
TW

CD

You never did tell me about my PH and the RAMs lol. I would love to have some of your giant HYgro if you can send me some. I have also noticed that the Wysteria has slowed down its growth in my tank.

Also i would suggest maybe

http://www.azgardens.com

&

http://www.floridadriftwood.com

instead of your local LFS for plants.

Shane

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Fishmonster,

sorry that I left you in the dark re the rams - without any intention! I am a bit confused reading your log: are you having trouble with the Blue "German" ram or the Bolivian ram? Your pH is too high for the blue ram, they really prefer slightly acidic water! The Bolivian is considered to be a bit more tolerant, however, I do not have any experience with this fish myself. If I were you I would get the Hagen peat granules and test what they do to the water. Discus breeders in my area praise them!

Thanks for your suggestions re plants - I arrived at this conclusion when it comes to plants that are a little bit out of the ordinary. LFS do not carry them and if they do, usually you get them in pretty bad condition beyond the point of return. However, I got a deal with my LFS (the sales person responsible for plants): they get my trimmings and in return they try to order what I want for free. Not bad, I think. Aside from this I am waiting for Robyn's report re plants from aquaticmagic, an eBay seller in Malaysia who sells also hard ware at very good prices. Other members have also ordered from this guy and have only good things to say (he has very nice and hard to come buy needle leaf java fern, etc). Problem with most online companies are shipment charges, I used to order with very good experience from www.aquariumplants.com, but it is worth only if you order a lot.

I do not have giant hygro, what you see is hygrophilia polysperma which is considered an invasive weed. You are allowed to sell within the state but not across state lines. Personally, I would not mind to send some trimmings at all ... tell you what, try to get it locally, I got mine without realizing what it is from an aquarium society (across state line)