FishProfiles.com Message Forums

I am sooooo looking forward to the end result of this beautiful tank!

I know you have probably looked up info & pics of black sharks already, but I couldn't help remembering a thread on here once that had some pics of one. I will put the link below if you want to take a look, & for those who have never seen a pic of a grown black shark, I don't think you will forget these.

BlackShark

ha,

So there you are, starting the log and I see the first two pictures, then I get busy at work, and before I know it tetratech and NowherMan6 took charge and responded to what I would have said as well

OK, so first of all, welcome to the world of logs

I hope you will have fun here and the gang can help you whenever there is a need.

Now to the tank:

Sure thing, the actinic is not going to work, and sure enough, the height of this tank will become a problem with low foreground plants and light penetration to lower parts of taller stems too. I assume over time you will find out if your light (that would be 4 96 watts between 5,000k and 10,000k) will be enough for the more light - hungry plants.

Which brings me to the topic of the plants. I always recomment to stuff a tank with as many fast growers as possible to get it settled. As you have read in my 125g log, I didn't do that, and as you read then as well, I paid the price for it. And if you have seen the 40G log, there I did it and all was good.

Next up is the background - what were you thinking ? I would advise you to have a plain background, either black or dark blue. I don't want to talk harsh words when someone is in the process of getting started, but this one is brutal (including the fact that it repeats itself twice).

I love the river, it may be a little too wide, but not overly so. The driftwood seems nice as well, maybe not the one that shows the cut in the front, but the more branchy one can work great leaning over the river. Has this wood ever been submersed? If not, then expect a major floater upper. Also, you will find out that once the tank is planted the hardscape begins to look much smaller. I would suggest to add more of the same rocks and wood, in order to compete with the enormous height of the tank you may need to have a rather tall piece of wood.

I like the steps you created on the left, this gives you the option to add even lower growing plants further back. Nevertheless, lower growing in this tank means like 20 inches, .

You may have to be careful when you plant these steps so that the retaining rocks don't get pushed over. How deep do these rocks go into the substrate? If they are in there rather shallow then you will have problems as the whole thing will slide down (over time).

I also would move the heaters in less focal points, the back left and right corners for example.

Overall, I sure envy you for the tank depth, but not for the height. Do you have to climb in there to plant some hairgrass or glosso or do you have exceptionally long arms ? I can imagine that once it is all full and you have to mess with a plant in the back you will need a long pair or tweezers and scissors.

Talking about your equipment, you don't mention CO2, is there anything planned? Some of your plants will probably not work without CO2, I think your Macandra is one of them.

Puh, that was a long entry. Again, I am not interested in turning you off or talking you down, if I gave that impression then I am sorry for it. I am only trying to get you started on the right foot, at least to my best knowledge (and I don't know everything anyway).

Again, welcome to "Log-World"

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi,
Looking good!
The comments on the actinic lights are spot on.
From the first picture, to the last comment, my mind
shouted to get rid of the background. Its cartoonish in
its brilliant colors and will be completely out of place
when the plants are in the tank. It will be a clash like
you won't believe.

Frank



-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Very excited about this log! Lol mainly because unlike all the other amazing planted tank logs on this forum, I am here for the begining of this one!

Anyway, what are your plans for fish?

And, I hate to say it but I agree with LF and FRANK about the background ...sorry.

Good luck and I will definately keep up with this one!

Again, I am not interested in turning you off or talking you down, if I gave that impression then I am sorry for it.

Ingo , you don't have to worry about this , as you know Ive read all your logs so I know your style by now and I love it , I have already learned so much but Im sure you can teach me so much more .

Next up is the background - what were you thinking ? I would advise you to have a plain background, either black or dark blue. I don't want to talk harsh words when someone is in the process of getting started, but this one is brutal (including the fact that it repeats itself twice).

Yes well I knew this would draw some comments (thanks Frank as well ) In my defence I did not have a choice it came with the tank and when I asked for a replacement none were available . It will be replaced in Time I can assure you !

I always recomment to stuff a tank with as many fast growers as possible to get it settled

I thought that I had that covered with the 15 Stargrass & 5 Java Fern but if you don't think thats enough I 'll just get some more?

Has this wood ever been submersed? If not, then expect a major floater upper.

Not sure yet its very old looking and the only decent piece I could get here in the country . Its about to get a soaking over the next couple of days , so we will see

How deep do these rocks go into the substrate? If they are in there rather shallow then you will have problems as the whole thing will slide down (over time).

I hear you on this one, my attempts at scaping in my 60 g just dissappeared over time hence the rock fences . So they have pretty solid bases anchored in the gravel , hope thats enough , Time will tell .

I also would move the heaters in less focal points, the back left and right corners for example.

Done

Do you have to climb in there to plant some hairgrass or glosso or do you have exceptionally long arms ? I can imagine that once it is all full and you have to mess with a plant in the back you will need a long pair or tweezers and scissors.

No I do not have long arms and Im short as well The ladder is permantley stationed next to the tank and I bought these

Attached Image:

Talking about your equipment, you don't mention CO2,

Yes I did mention that I wasnt going to do C02 , I will rely on Excel for the moment , might think about it later .

One question I wanted to ask you Ingo was about some plants melting with Excel . I'm sure I saw that in one of your logs ? Do you have any insight into what plants it affects .?

Lastly the lights . Ive decided to get another unit with 4 daylight 96w 10000 bulbs . That will give me 6 by 96w which will give me 576 w or 2.4w per g.

I plan after listening to all of you to put 1 unit with the 4 daylights over the front for the foreground plants and leave the current one at the back with 2 daylights for the taller plants .

I will keep the blue bulbs for nighttime after the whites are turned off as we like to watch our nocturnal fish .My wifes favourite George only come out at night .
What do you think about that plan, will that be enough light .

Well Ingo , can't tell you how much Im enjoying this ,and Im really gratefull that youve taken the time to help me . Thanks for the insights and keep them coming.
Garry

Attached Image:

George in a rare appearance

Hi Ryan , Thanks for stopping by , glad Ive caught your interest and yes the background is ordinary , it will go
Hope the log gives you some enjoyment and you can learn along with me .
Garry

Ryan , sorry forgot to answer your fish queston , the starting listof fish is in the first post of the thread.
Garry

Garry ,

I am on my way out to work, so just a quick input here:

I would suggest that you rather have no background than this one. This way you would not be distracted when planting the tank. I know that you probably would try to blend out the structure while planting, but sub-contiously (spelling) you may start to try to form some type of harmony between the tank and the pictured plants of the background (or at least the tall/low plant sections of the background).

Also, Star Grass is a fast grower, but Java Fern is not a fast grower at all. Think about Wisteria, some Hygros (Giant Hygro easily fits in your tank), maybe Water Sprite, etc.

I think the right dose of Excel for my larger (compared to yours small) tank is about 50ml daily or at least every other day. That means you need at least 100ml 3 times a week. I know CO2 equipment is more expensive in Australia, but maybe you should start making a cost analysis. Robyn (Tank Watcher) may have some insight, if you have some questions.

K, gotta run for now,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Countryfish,

IME Blyxa japonica has reacted negatively to Excel, and Elodea is known to melt when combined with Excel.

But in a tank of this size Excel is going to be expensive. I would consider just laying out the dough for a pressurized system, if growing stem plants is truly what you're after.

---

Back in the saddle!

Garry, one piece of advice is to reaffirm what everybody's said about the actinics: get rid of them and replace with whites. Go with 8x96 over this tank. That will give you 3.2wpg and you will need that for the plants you have listed, especially the foreground plants at that depth, the pygmy swords, glosso, pearlgrass, pennywort, and most especially the rotala in the back. Oh, and definitely get CO2. With that size a tank, you -need- at least 3wpg, and with 3wpg, you -need- CO2.

You said you were going to keep the blue lights for nocturnal viewing, but that's not what the actinic blue lights are for. They are a very bright blue-white light that is like a daytime light with a blue tint, not a nocturnal blue moonlight type light, that you would get from the "lunar" lights. Lunar lights are made from blue LED lamps.

My two cents on your stocking is to number one do not go with the black shark. They are awesome to watch, but they grow very, very, very large, will eat your other sharks, and quite possibly will strip a good number of your plants.

Number two and at least as important, you do not want to put tiger barbs, sharks, angelfish, and gouramis in the same tank, no matter how big it is. Tiger barbs are fin nippers. In a large enough school the nipping is minimized - until you introduce fish with long flowing fins. For example, angelfish, gouramis, bettas, etc. They are also active, aggressive fighters. This behavior is more noticeable with other aggressive fighter fish, especially territorial ones such as red fin/red tail sharks. Either go with more tiger barbs and not the angels and gouramis, or go with the angels and gouramis and NOT the barbs and sharks. Personally, I would go with a massive school mixed up of regular, gold, and green tiger barbs, and forgoe the angels, guorami, and maybe go with one or two of the sharks (but not the black ).

There are a lot of fish you can mix with the different varieties you've listed, but IME and from my research, you've picked varieties that really do not need to be in the same tank with each other. The angels and gouramis would get along fine, and I think with the red tail/fin sharks would be ok. But the barbs would be adding mayhem. Depending on which fish are your favorite, you should really pick a primary fish as the focal fish of the tank and then add tankmates based on that fish choice.

Listen! Do you smell that?

Oh, sorry Garry. I must have missed that

- Cool pic!

Hi folks , Thanks for all the input . I'm learning quickly in this forum which of course is the idea .

Firstly Ingo , my reason for not going with C02 is not cost as my wife will tell you she says I spend more on the fish than her . I'm just a bit cautious about taking to many jumps at once . I will probably do someting about it down the track a bit after I learn more . Ive only just started experimenting with ferts in my 60g based on what Ive read in your logs and Im already getting tremondous growth compared to what I had before .

About the background well I hope Im better than that at planning , my vison for the planting is pretty strong so I should be alright

Thanks for the tips on plants I will look into geting some more fast growers .

Once again Ingo thanks for taking time to help .

Lysaer , thanks for the fish advice , I seem to have a different opinion on Tigers than most people , I keep them in a school of 12 and dont seem to have the any problems with my Angels or Gourami's .

You can see my thoughts on C02 above , I am listening just a bit reluctant to jump too quickly into things Im not experienced in .

Im quickly learning that no one rates the look of Actinic's in freshwater, I will take that onboard and have a rethink .

Thanks Ly for stopping by and helping with my setup .

NowherMan6 , Thanks for the advice on the melting issue and yes I will consider C02 Crickey ( good old aussie saying ) you guys certainly are persistant about C02 I had hoped to ease my way into going Hitech but Im starting to get the picture that I might have some issues if don't , Ill have to give it some thought . Thanks for taking the time to help .

Anyway thanks to everyone for helping Im learning fast !!!???
Garry

Garry,

From my limited experience, the larger the tank the longer the time it takes to prepare before an actual setup can occur. For example, it takes me maybe a week or so to buy all the equipement for a 20G low tech and 3 hours to set it up, but months to do the same on a 125G high tech.

The reason why we are so persistent is because we would like to see you and your log for a longer period than just a month or so when frustration would cause you to stop posting. You may have noticed in our logs a few other members that participated for a while and then dissapeared (maybe you should try to search for "Log" to find their own records), all because things were either rushed or not thouht out or they simply gave up.

Simply the size of your tank boggles our minds (at least mine) and makes me think of all the things that can be done with it. On the other hand, the same factor (size) is also what concerns us most, in particular the height will cause issues that we a) have not had here before and b) that we would love to tackle with you.

Now, even if you can blend out the background (and I believe you when you say that), I for sure cannot . As such it makes it rather hard for me to give my best advice when looking at your pictures.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The reason why we are so persistent is because we would like to see you and your log for a longer period than just a month or so when frustration would cause you to stop posting. You may have noticed in our logs a few other members that participated for a while and then dissapeared (maybe you should try to search for "Log" to find their own records), all because things were either rushed or not thouht out or they simply gave up.

Excellent point!

Garry,
Just curious, what are the specs on your 60g (light,ferts,flora,fauna)

My Scapes

Ingo , I really appreciate your input , don't worry about that, you have certainly made me think hard about a lot of my choices .

Ive been working on this setup for about 5 weeks now so Im trying not to rush in

The background , the background I wasnt going to say but I have ordered a dark blue one and it might be here in a week or so . But I think the plants will be in first so you may have to put up with one more round of photo's before it arrives

The size of the tank is just the challenge that I was looking for and the reason Im asking for your help . I have had a 60g this time around for around 18 mts and was getting a little bored , by the way when I finish the 240g set up the 60 g is in for an "Ingo style " makeover for which I will also start up a log . Should be interesting .

Anyway I am listening and thinking hard about everything Ive been told .

Should have the plants mid week and will post photo's of the planting late in the week. Oh and I will be around for a long time posting the good as well as the bad.

Garry

Oh and I will be around for a long time posting the good as well as the bad.

That's the spirit, Garry, keep it that way

And about one more week of the fakest red plants I have ever seen: I think we can handle this, as long as we know it is going to turn into something less offensive very soon

Hey, with all the listening what you have been told and are currently are being told by me and others, keep in mind that in the end it is your tank. If you don't like something we suggest, just don't do it. I have no problem with you telling me off

Looking forward to the next round of things to come (anyway - what is the plan for this week, like filling, planting, and what not?)

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi Jeff , welllllll Ive been a bit reluctant to talk about it because I didn't want you guys to think of me as a complete throwback

The tank has 1 55w 10000k daylight and 1 55w pink plant bulb so 110w on nett 55 g about 2w per g . The light fixture holds 4 bulbs so I can crank it up in the future if I want .

Ive only just started on the ferts using the Seachem Flourish range with Excel as my C02 , as well as Potassium, Phosphate , Nitrogen and Flourish for the micro's .

Im dosing 3 times a week for the moment . Ive only been doing it for about 3 weeks and increasing the frequency of dosing slowly and so far so good , had to do a major trim today

The plants are 6 swords , assorted crypts , Too much Ambulia , Hygro ( Giant I think) 2 Anubias on Driftwood and 3 large leaf plants whose name I haven't worked out yet . Still learning a lot about plants ????

Now the fish, this is where Im a bit retro from my involvement in the hobby 30 years ago , The tank is way overstocked by todays standards but they all seem to be getting on fine and I don't seem to be getting any problems other than lots of cleaning Im stalling now , oh well here goes, Kissers , Opaline , Pearl &Gold Gourami's, Angels , Golden & Tiger Barbs , Sharks, Zebra Danios, Harlequins , Cardinals, Sissortails, Tetras and a couple of Catfish .

There I fessed up they say confession is good for the soul



All of the big fish will be going into the 240 g and this tank will then become a Tetra paradise . Well nearly .

I trust you will all be kind to me in your next posts , don't hurt an old mans feelings
Attached is a photo from last week .
Jeff Thanks for stopping by.
Garry

Attached Image:

Hey Garry,

Let me revise what I said earlier a little: I was unaware that these were fish you already had in a tank. If you've already got them in a tank and they're used to each other, then obviously they should do even better in the bigger tank with more room.

Listen! Do you smell that?

I am staying out of the fish discussion

Doesn't look all that bad, the 60. Oh, btw, making a wpg seem larger by using some water quantity derived from substracting substrate, plants, hardscape fish, and what not is not the best way. When one hears about "you need at least ... wpg for some plant" then this usually comes from the tank's overall capacity, and not a net value of water. I tried myself to beef up my wpg by netting a tank, but it didn't convince anybody . In any case, there is not much difference between 2.2 and 2.4 wpg on what you can do with it.

WPG rules in general are rather unimportant once you leave the average tank size (30 to 40 G) and go smaller (needs much more wpg for same result) or larger (needs quite a bit less) or taller (more), or shallower (less).

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Garry,

That is a very nice aquarium and one that most would love to have adorn their homes. Upon reviewing the tank and one reason I asked for the specs is to see what you were currently doing planted-wise. Your 60G basically has a large fish load, with medium lighting and little ferts till now. The reason it works in terms of growing plants and algae is just for those reasons. The high fish load is providing the plants with macros, while the medium light is keeping algae away, but giving the low-light level plants enough to grow.

If I had your two tanks this is what I would do. And again it's just my opinion and you of course will do what makes you happy and everyone here I'm sure will help you just the same. I would switch tanks. What I mean by that is put your existing plants and fish in the 240g and use medium lighting. Maybe increase your schools some, etc.

In the 60g I would convert this one to your high light tank with all the bells and whistles.

The main reason is the plants and for algae control. If you keep the lighting moderate on the 240g it will be very difficult to grow plants like glosso or for that matter any foreground/carpet type plant. If you increase the light to try and do this you will probably have explosive algae growth based on the size of those fish and the food and waste they will produce. Also the fish you list will probably destroy many of the plants you wish to grow. In addition, it will be very difficult to trim the foreground without a few Oompa Loompa doning scuba gear.

It sounds like the 60g has the ability to add more light and will be easier to grow the plants you want with a nice large school of tetras, shrimp and otos for algae control. It will also be must easier to get a handle on a high-light tank in terms of trimming, fert adjustments, etc.

Anyway just thought I'd throw it out there, nothing is impossible and you could certainly attempt it in the larger tank, but in an effort to minimize frustration along the lines of with LF was saying I think this would work better to that end.

My Scapes

Ly , Don't worry mate , Its my fault for not saying that I was transferring from my other tank . Its cool I appreciate any input and you weren't the first to warn me off Black Sharks and Tigers. Trust you will keep commenting as every opinion is a chance to learn

Ingo , Thanks for being kind about the fish load.

Interesting point on the wpg . Ive found in my admittedly short time of experimenting with these things ( Ferts & fish loads included ) that EI or any method is a means to an end .

The end being an attractive tank which one can continually tinker with to improve .

With more information and knowledge comes the ability to improvise further and to learn more from personal experience which I think enhances the the whole experience of fish keeping .

What excites me most about the hobby today is being able to converse and learn from other people like yourself but then to adapt that to your own world .

Every setback is a chance to learn and people who don't make mistakes don't learn .Whew enough philosophy for one day .

The plan for this week is to get the plants and new lights about Wed and hopefully early enough in the day to get the planting done and get the tank filled.

Then I will probably let the tank sit & stabilise for a few days with a fert regime in place before I add my 4 Kissers and the sponge from my filter in the 60g to kick start the cycle .

Pictures by the end of the week .

Thanks
Garry

Thanks for being kind about the fish load

That's not what I meant, I simply meant not to comment on it. My FP name of LITTLE_FISH does not only mean that I am no big fish in this hobby, it also indicates my preference for fish size in my tanks

Whew enough philosophy for one day

That was a good reflection on the approach, remember this entry at moments of frustration (there always will be some of these).

... and the sponge from my filter in the 60g to kick start the cycle

Good idea! I don't know how you started the 60G, but just a reminder: well planted tanks don't really have a cycle, so don't be surprised if you should not see the common cycle readings on your test kits. Most of the time, you will not get any readings at all, except the Nitrates that your add as ferts. The Ammonia will be sucked up by the plants first. Any cycle that may occur should be so minor that it is almost unmeasurable. This is, if you have a well planted tank with sufficient nutrient uptake.

Looking forward to the next pictures and updates,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Tetratech, Wow what can I say . That ceratinly is a different approach and something I haven't thought about in that way

I really appreciate your thoughts and the attempts to make my efforts easier and less frustating . You are much more experienced in the planted world than me and I really should do it that way .

But ( you knew there was going to be a but ) I really want to see what I can do with the big tank . I want to have a go at some things that may not work . We'll see how it goes and I reserve you the right to say I told you so if it all goes pear shaped in the future

On the subject of the 60g thanks for you nice comments . I am going to go back to scratch and redesign it after Ive got the big one up and running . I really want to go with an elegant simple design and Ill probably take your advice and go hi tech in this tank which will give me a fallback for some of the plants that may not work in the big tank .Ill start a log on it as well.

Thanks for your insightfull comments and while I may not take them all exactly as read , Im very much better armed for having heard them .

Please keep them coming over the next few months as both tanks develop .
Garry

My FP name of LITTLE_FISH does not only mean that I am no big fish in this hobby, it also indicates my preference for fish size in my tanks

Ingo , yes I knew that , but don't underestimate you influence on people like me !!!!

Any cycle that may occur should be so minor that it is almost unmeasurable. This is, if you have a well planted tank with sufficient nutrient uptake.

Yes thats what Im hoping for . I didnt work for me when I started the 60g but I made a lot of mistakes which I wont make this time thanks to all the sage advice

Oh by the way , I have had the driftwood soaking for a couple of days and you'll be happy to know that it does'nt appear to be a floater but boy has it leached some tannins I read somewhere that you should boil the stuff .Is that just to get rid of any critters or should I do that to help get rid of the tannins .
I think I remember reading that you had some issues with this , what would you do ?
Garry

Hi folks , Just a quick update.

The plants & extra lights arrived late today As usual not everything I ordered was supplied
No Glosso or Rotala which based on your advice may not be all that bad

However no Stargrass or Pearl Grass , so looks like Im going to have to find some fast growers quickly .
Quess I'll be doing the rounds of the LFS's in town tomorrow looking for Water Sprite / Wisteria /Giant Hygro.

Also recieved some suprises in the form of Certopteris Pteroides which I can't find out much about .
Anybody got any idea about how large etc . ???
Got another suprise in a plant that wasn't on their list, could be the Rotala but I'm not sure . Its the red & green Leaf on the top right of the photo .
Anyone ID it ? I'll get a better photo tomorrow .

Anyway all plants recieved seem to be in good shape and have floated them for the night ( Photo Attached ) .

Big day tomorrow , should be fun
Garry

Attached Image:

Garry,

First off: Certopteris Pteroides is really called Ceratopteris pteroides. Google this name and you will find quite a bit of info. Upfront, it is a floating plant for the surface.

The red plant in your picture does not look like Rotala to me, seems to be maybe some form of Ludwigia, like broad leaf. I just received a few weeks ago a plant named obelia cardinalis 'Small Form'. That plant had been grown emersed and has in that state red undersides and green tops with a similar leaf shape. Given the size of your leaves, it may be obelia cardinalis, but that is just a wild guess.

Otherwise: Happy Planting

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Update of the Planting of the tank .

Firstly a shot of the tank with a new Background . Unfortunatley the LFS was unable to get one the correct size so they gave me a smaller one to tide me over until the correct one comes in . Better than the cartoon I think

Attached Image:

Next the plants laid out ready to start.

Attached Image:

The Amazon Swords & the mystery freebie which turned out to be Purple Waffle , which is not even an aquarium plant so that went into the bin

Attached Image:

A shot of the setup ready to start adding water and begin planting

Attached Image:

The Driftwood after attaching the Anubia's & some Java Fern

Attached Image:

Now some shots of the tank after completion of planting and filling . Firstly the complete tank

Attached Image:

The right side

Attached Image:

The left Side

Attached Image:

The "River"

Attached Image:

A few close ups of the Plants in the tank . Firstly the Anubias Barteri on the left with the Ludwigia ( which was not the variety I ordered by the way

Attached Image:

The Hairgrass & Chain Sword

Attached Image:

The brown Crypts near the base of the Driftwood

Attached Image: