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I've got a 30 gallon, which I plan on putting live plants in. I've read that other post about being new to plants and I'm not 100% sure if I understand. I want to first put live plants in and keep them stable and healthy before I put any fish in at all.

What is a suggested wattage bulb for a 30gal?

What type of substrate should I use? Alfagrog?

Would making my own CO2 tank be a better idea than buying a system?

How will the CO2 affect my water chemistry?

Right now my pH is 7.0 and my KH is somewhere between 0 and 30 and my Nitrites, Nitrates, and Ammonia are 0 since I have no fish in it yet.

What kind of plant food/nutrients would you suggest?

Please ask/tell me other things that will help my planted tank be a success.

Basically, if you had a 30 gallon tank with nothing but a filter and a heater how would you go around planting it.

What is a suggested wattage bulb for a 30gal?

A planted tank is usually considered 2-3 watts per US Gal.
It is not necessarily the watts it is the type of lights used I always have two on my tanks one plant and one daylight. Depending on their cost will depend on their useful life span it can be from months to two years for a high quality unit.

What type of substrate should I use? Alfagrog?

Never heard of that at all. I would always recommend at least 3-4ins of a good quality 1-3mm natural coloured river pebbles.

Would making my own CO2 tank be a better idea than buying a system?

To this one I would say yes unless you know exactly what you are doing

How will the CO2 affect my water chemistry?

I will leave that one for Frank I have never used CO2 at all.

What kind of plant food/nutrients would you suggest?

I only use Seachem liquid ferts and plant tabs in the 45lt Cardinal & Cherry Red shrimp tank.
The 5ft Anubias I only use a locally made liquid fert.

Please ask/tell me other things that will help my planted tank be a success.

First I would say a lot of research and thought as to what to buy and where to plant it. This can vary a lot depending on the fish you have as well. Also remember plants are not cheap be prepared.
This is one thing that can not be rushed. It took me two years to locate one plant I wanted and I have been waiting another 12months for more to arrive from the grower.

Basically, if you had a 30 gallon tank with nothing but a filter and a heater how would you go around planting it.

First do a lot of research on what plants you can buy.
Locate the suitable substrate.
Look at as many planted tank you can find.
Research aquascapeing that's the fun part.
Do you want Drift Wood and/or rocks?
Now start planing on what and where.
All of this will take time if you want some thing good be prepared to wait and do all the research first.

I hope this helps you and not confuses you

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info
Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Hi,
I'm glad that you read the "New to Plants" article at the
top of the Planted Aquaria Forum. There is a lot of
information in that article for both the beginner and even
the expert.

First you need to decide how much money you can afford to
put into this tank. Plants can be expensive and usually
the LFS will have a scattered assortment. Read the
article again, plants come in three light demand categories.
Low, medium, and high. They also can be floating,
or bunched, or stem types.

For the average tank, with many different types of plants,
2-3 watts of light per gallon is a good starting point.
I'd stick with no more than 2.5 wpg to start with. With
3 or more watts per gallon, you will need to add carbon
to the tank in either liquid or gaseous form.
If you opt to use gas, then with a 30G tank you will need
two DIY CO2 generators connected in series, and you will
need two more ready to mix to replace the expired ones.
With a 30G tank, it would be much easier to use the liquid
forms of carbon.
http://www.aquatic-eden.com/2006/10/build-your-own-yeast-co2-generator.html

In reference to your "Alfagrog" question:

Add the alfagrog. Having completed the basic design , fill the actual bog garden part with alfagrog. This is a ceramic filter media used in Koi fish ponds to filter the water. It contains a huge amount of surface area in which our bacteria will live and clean up the water.

This is not a substrate, it is a filter medium. It's
designed to be used inside an aquarium or hydroponic
filter.

You have several choices for substrate. Which ever you
decide on (again read the article for information on
aquarium substrates) or this one:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_substrate.htm

The average depth is 3-4 inches thick. This gives plenty
of room for virtually any rooted plant to grow. Some
could actually grow in less, but 3-4 inches is allows
anything from a shallow rooted, ground coverage plant,
to a large Amazon Sword plant to thrive.

I'd advise you to stay away from sand of any kind until
you have some more experience. Sand has a whole bunch
of other problems associated with its use.

You will need to get an accurate test kit for both the
pH and KH tests. Don't use strips, and do be sure that
the kits are new. Old out dated reagents will give faulty
readings, and those will cause all sorts of confusion.

You want your KH to be around a 4, and no lower than a 3.
You want your pH in the area for the comfort of the fish
you intend to house in the tank. When you add CO2 to the
tank, the pH will drop. How much, depends upon how much
CO2 you add, and what the KH is.
The Carbonate Hardness (KH) is a measure of the
water's ability to buffer the acids formed by
organic waste products and the CO2 which mixes with
the H2O and also forms a weak acid (called Carbolic
Acid [C6H5OH]) in the tank.
Too little a reading and a small amount of acid will
cause the pH to plummet. Too high a KH and it will take
a huge amount of acid to make any change in the pH.

Unless you are planning on the pH extremes, 6.0 or 8.0
pH's, plants are actually pretty forgiving as far as the
pH values are concerned. Once you decide on a specific
plant, then look it up to see its ideal pH range.

You can, and should cycle the tank with plants in it.
You can either do a "Fish-less" cycle:
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article14.html
or cycle with fish. If you insist on using fish to cycle
the tank then stick with some really hardy fish such as
the Zebra Danios as they will have to survive some pretty
horrific water conditions lasting for up to two months
before the tank is fully cycled.

Hope this helps...
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Just adding my 2 cents. If you go with driftwood, remember, it will release tannins in the water. This will change the color of your water for a few weeks to a yellow to tea brown. Once the wood has "matured" you "may" not have the the color change. If you don't like the color you will have to do 30-40% water changes weekly until it stops leaching. BUT if you get a fish that likes to nibble on wood... you will almost always have to do your water changes because of the "look/color". I've not gone with DW so I can't advise on preparing the wood. But, I do know you have to scrub it, boil it, soak it. You'll have to dig about the forum for the specifics. (Or just outright ask.)

On the subject of the fish... research which plants are good with which fish. No sense in buying a plant that will kill the fish and vice versa. Some fish are notorious for tearing up plants, i.e. Oscars. (that's just naming one of many.) Your tank is much too small for an Oscar but you should get where I'm going with my example.

Take note of the temperature the plants can tolerate. You don't want to waste money on a plant that will turn to mush if the water is too warm, or just die because the water is too cold.

The key is and always will be... RESEARCH, RESEARCH, ASK and RESEARCH some more! You'll see it time and again here.

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Thank you! This is all starting to make a lot more sense to me!

So for my tank a 60-90watt light is a good start?

On the other post you mention having two different fluorescent bulbs. Why do you have two different ones? My tank hood only has a spot for one bulb on it...

...So you suggest using a store bought liquid CO2 tank and system. I agree, because I think two of the homemade ones would be too much of a hassle for me.

Lets say I get my CO2 system set up, whether it be made or bought,and my KH is around 4. Is it possible that the pH could drop below 7.0 in those conditions? If so should I, stop the CO2 tank for a while to increase the pH or do water changes to restore a neutral pH then increase my KH to buffer from the CO2?

Also, I believe I have this substrate:
http://www.petco.com/product/107329/PETCO-Pebble-Beach-Mix-Aquarium-Gravel.aspx
Is this a suitable substrate or would I want something on that link you provided like fluorite? It appears to me that a high CEC can only be a good thing.

Made of non-toxic fish safe materials and colors.

That link not working

From another link same substrate.
Frank is that stuff artificial?
Or is it the way they write it over there.

As for the two lights one is a Daylight and the other a Plant light. If you only have one light then you will have to go for the plant light. Again Frank might know of a suitable one light unit for you.

With any Co2 units you want as little water surface movement as possible, this means no air stones and the return filter should be below the water surface to the full benefit of your Co2

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info
Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Hi,
For your tank a 60-90 watt light would be appropriate and
give you between 2-3 watts per gallon. For beginners, I
would suggest sticking to 2 watts but 3 would be fine.

The reason Keith has two bulbs, a daylight, and a plant
grow bulb is because of the second bulb. A "plant grow"
bulb produces a pink to purplish light and this discolors
the greens of the plants and the fish as well. By adding
the "Daylight" bulb the white light negates the
effect of the pink/purple light.
He could have the same plant growth with two
daylight bulbs, but he has found a perfect
solution for his tanks and should stick with what works
for him, his plants, and tanks.

I would not use that gravel that you linked us to. It is
for decorative purposes only. The pieces are too large to
provide a good base for plants to anchor (root) in. With
"grain" size that large, it leaves too much space between
the individual pieces and excess food and fish waste will
settle in within the pieces of rock and rot.

Use a gravel that is either a number 2 or 3 size. You keep
showing Pet Co links, is that the only pet store in town?
Get a bag of natural river gravel and wash it and use it.
It will cost far less.


Your problem with DIY CO2 injection is that you have no
way to control the production of CO2. It will surge when
new and put out a tremendous amount of CO2 and then as the
solution of yeast and sugar ferment and produce alcohol,
the CO2 production drops off as the alcohol dilutes the
mix. Soon nothing is produced and you have to redo the
system all over again. It's a royal pain in the butt.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

In my area there are a few private dealers and the big Petco and Petsmart. I got that gravel for my first time with an aquarium and it was for fake plants and decorations. I plan on getting my equipment, plants, etc, for my planted tank, from the private dealers because they seem to have more knowledge about what they are doing.

I googled natural creek gravel and came up with this:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+10741+12134&pcatid=12134
If that's what I'm looking for then I'll probably try and locate it at one of my LFS... You mentioned sizes 2 or 3, is that displayed on the bag of most gravels? I didn't know they had a scale system I thought it was looks.

So will I need to have just a plant grow light? Or will I be fine with a daylight bulb or is there a hybrid bulb?

My filter is external, is that going to be a problem with the CO2 since it disturbs the water? Or will I need to put the filter and CO2 unit as far away as possible? Which may not be that far since my tank is acrylic and only has a golf ball size hole for each back corner and a 1.5ft middle area for the filter.

My tank is a 29gal SeaClear Rectangular Aquarium.

Oh and another few things:

If I cycle my tank with just plants in it and I provide them with the nutrients they need when I finally put fish in will I have to change an ways I feed the plants? Like less liquid fertilizer or a different kind?

And, do you put nutrients in the substrate before adding water and also feed them liquid fertilizer? The guy in my book, "Setting up a Tropical Aquarium Week-by-week" puts nutrients (Laterite) in his substrate before he fills the tank with plants, rocks, fish, and water and then 8 weeks later he pours liquid nutrients in the tank for the plants when everything has been put in. What I'm asking is whether or not putting the nutrients in the substrate is necessary if you are going to feed the plants with liquid nutrients anyway?

Hi,
Go back and read the thread (sticky note) at the top of
the forum. If you use lights labeled "DAYLIGHT" or
"SUNLIGHT" your plants will grow and thrive. You do not
need bulbs labeled "GrowLux" or "plant grow." Those bulbs
give off a pink or purplish color that, to the human eye,
washes out the greens of the plants and in some cases those
of the fish as well.. The Daylight and Sunlight are "white"
light bulbs of a particular Kelvin rating that is the
perfect mesh between the human eye, and the needs of the
plants.

Gravel is sized by the cross section width of a sieve.
Number 2 and number 3 size sieves will pass 2mm and 3mm
(respectively) size grains.
https://www.enasco.com/prod/images/products/37/NC1367Cl.jpg
Yes, the gravel size will be marked on the bags.
You don't want pebble size gravel for the reasons I
mentioned earlier.

Normal aquarium gravel is a quartz based gravel. Quartz is
inert and does not affect the water. It is natural in
color and is great for aquariums. However, because it is
inert all it does is provide a medium for the plants to
grow roots in and anchor themselves. It does not provide
any nutrients for the plants. All the nutrients that plants
need must be furnished either by waste products from the
fish, or by you adding fertilizer to the tank.
Several products are on the market now that are substrates
providing the opportunity for plant roots and for them
to anchor themselves, and also give off nutrients for the
plants. In general, these are man made, and some are only
designed to last a year. After that they need to be
removed and replaced. Some will last nearly a lifetime
and constantly leech out nutrients for the plants.

This is what I use in my tank:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+10741+4870&pcatid=4870
This would be another good choice:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+10741+9087&pcatid=9087
As you can see, the "fancy substrates" are much more
expensive than are the regular gravel substrates.

One way to use regular gravel (no nutrients) and take care
of the plants is to do as that author suggests. You place
a layer of clay, in this case Laterite, on the bottom of
the tank, and then "cap" or cover that layer with a layer
of regular gravel. This "layered" method will provide
much of the nutrients, especially Iron (Fe), that the
plants need for years and years.
THE DRAWBACK (problem) with this type of tank is that
you have to be VERY CAREFUL when filling the tank, vacuuming
the tank, or planting the tank. The plants will grow the
roots through the gravel layer into the clay layer and then
spread out throughout the entire tank. When you uproot a
plant, vacuum the gravel too roughly, or pour the water in
too hard, you will disrupt the layers and pull the clay
particles up into the water column. It will turn the water
into muddy water, and can take even months for it to clear
up. The only filter that will remove the clay particles
is a diatom filter.
http://www.aquariumguys.com/diatomfilter.html
They are expensive, and only designed to run for a
couple of hours, they are not designed for 24/7 operation.

Unless you are using a bottled gas CO2 injection system,
where you simply increase the amount of CO2 injected to
compensate for loss due to a riled surface, you need to
keep the surface of the water as close to perfectly calm
as possible.

With the DIY and other forms of CO2 injection you rely on
the surface tension to keep the excess CO2 in the water.
If you run an air stone, or the water return from your
filter dumps onto the surface from above, then you are
breaking the surface tension and the excess CO2 will
be exchanged with the atmosphere. Normal, ambient CO2
saturation is around 5 milligrams per liter (mg/l).
Through CO2 injection we bring that saturation up to around
30mg/l. Thats a huge imbalance. Riling the surface allows
that "extra" CO2 to escape.

As far as adding nutrients to the water is concerned,
it is going to depend up on how densely planted your tank
is.
If it is planted like this 26G tank, then YES, you will
need to add nutrients.
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2007.cgi?&op=showcase&category=0&vol=1&id=121

If you have just a few plants then you won't need much and
in many cases the fish, alone, will supply what you need.
You need to cycle the tank. You can cycle the tank with
or without plants - BUT - you need a source of organic
waste. You can use pure, unscented, ammonia, OR, you can
add some hardy fish as was mentioned in an earlier post
for cycling the tank. The breakdown of the ammonia either
from the store or from the fish waste, and fish food, will
initially take care of the plants.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

How long do you think that Fluorite and Eco-complete substrate will last before it needs to be replaced?

Thank you for taking the time to help me out Frank, I really appreciate it

Another Plant Person!!

How long do you think that Fluorite and Eco-complete substrate will last before it needs to be replaced?

I have been using regular flourite since I got started about 4 years ago. My plants are still going strong. I also fertilize using the estimated index.

Here is something else you can look into.
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/62-estimative-index-dosing-no-need-test-kits.html
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/2819-ei-light-those-less-techy-folks.html

This method of fertilizing has worked rather well for me.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I'm terribly sorry but all that makes almost absolutely no sense. I am person who learns best through trial and error and doing it on my own, so a bunch of graphs and paragraphs just confuse me I think its because I haven't been doing this long enough

I am person who learns best through trial and error and doing it on my own,

All fish keeping and plant growing these days there is no need for trial and error. You have Google on the Internet lots of books, helpful groups like FP and many more each having their own speciality areas they cover in great detail .

When Frank and myself started I am sure Bill Gates was not even born let alone the words WWW. In my case books were scarce most of the information was not always related as it was too old or new information from Europe.

LFS were far and few and you were lucky if you could find a good one and even then you had to rely on them and as today too many were nothing but sharks. We never had the availability of the equipment like today.
There was only one to learn in those days and it often became very expensive when you lost fish and plants.
Equipment shocking compared to today's standards.

When you have had years of experience you can try different things to see how they work and you have the know how or know where to get the information to make sure it does not grow wrong.

When I started my first 45lt small tank about 5 years ago my smallest tank before that was a 4ft 40+ years ago, I must have driven some people mad trying to get all the correct information I required. I would have done easily 6 months research and I would say 90% of that was on the Internet.
I experimented a bit but it was certainly no where near "trial and error" every thing was well planned out and that tank is not finished yet.

I think I have raved enough.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info
Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Hi,
As you are starting to realize, "serious" fish-keeping is
a very involved hobby. It's not just a matter of buying
a fishbowl or tank, tossing in some gravel, pouring in
the water, and dropping in a few fish. It is a hobby that
can be very expensive, or not, and spans many of the
sciences. Math, geology, chemistry, biology, are but a
few of the sciences that a good, successful, fish-keeper
gets involved in.

There are a couple of general ways to add fertilizer to a
tank. One is Tom Barr's way of Estimated dosing which
Wings has become a proponent of. Another is one that
Keith uses, where he wrote SeaChem a detailed letter in
which he described his tank, his plants, his substrate,
and his lighting. They wrote him back and suggested a
fertilization routine using their liquid fertilizers
which he follows to the letter. His tanks are beautiful
as well.
Actually both are essentially the same, One uses dry
powder chemicals, and the other uses already prepared
liquids.
To read about Wing's tanks, look at this thread:
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/35345.8.htm?191#
They are beautiful tanks.

Even more variety - some only fertilize when the plants
tell them that they need it, and then they use only what
the plant needs.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm

As the saying goes, "there is more than one way to skin
a cat." It is up to you to read "our" advice and comments
and ask more questions, as needed and then start "doing."
When problems arise, ask more questions. It is a
continual learning process. Some folks can look at an
equation and know instantly what that math is saying
Others can look at graphs and quickly grasp the most
intricate details behind the presented information. Others
would rather read detailed descriptions. Others would
rather someone said, "follow me, do what I do, add what I
add, and put plants where I put them."

We are all different and when someone asks for help or
information, we have no idea how old someone is, how much
money they have available, or how much education they have.
We make assumptions, many based upon their grammar,
sentence construction, questions asked, and many of
those assumptions can be wrong.

Wings and I both use SeaChem's Flourite for a substrate.
His tank is 4 years old and mine is 15 years old.
The Flourite will last a lifetime. It is an ancient clay,
millions of years old, that was dug up, wetted, and then
fired (baked). Next, it was ground up into #2 & #3
grain size and bagged for use in aquariums.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

That first link is pretty hot and heavy. The second one is as Frank put it "Do as I do". I pretty much stick with this for my 55G:

40-60 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/8 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 3/4 tsp GH booster once a week(water change only)
+/- 1/8 (10ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

For your tank you would want to look at something more like this:
20-40 Gallon Aquariums
+/- ¼ tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/2 tsp GH booster once a week(water change only)
+/- 1/16 tsp (5ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

One of the reasons I like the EI (Estimative Index) method is because of the dry fertilizers. You buy them in pound quantities and they last at least a year for about $20. If you go the liquid way then you will probably spend far more.

I got my last couple of batches from this place.
http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/Store.php

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Keith, what I meant by "trial and error" and "doing it on my own" is that I learn best by physically doing something, like having a teacher who will do something with you to help you learn it. Asking you all, reading books, and researching helps me a lot, but it all boils down to whether or not I can actually do it correctly. I don't want to mess up

...Now I feel like I'm stealing your method of taking care of your tanks

...Wings, so each of those nutrients you have listed come as separate bags and you distribute them according to that chart based off of the EI? On the chart it has +\-, I assume the minus means not to distribute, depending on the levels of "that" nutrient currently in the tank?

Will a tank with no fish and just plants need supplemental nitrate?

I use these for my macro-nutrients:

Mono Potassium Phosphate
Potassium Nitrate
Potassium Sulfate

Then for the trace or micro-nutrients I use Seachems Flourish Comprehensive

The +/- means a little more or a little less than the amount listed. With my tank I have played around with the amounts a bit just to see if my plants grow better or get better colors. For the most part it hasn't changed much.

Will a tank with no fish and just plants need supplemental nitrate?

I think you would. If you don't have fish then there will not be any supply of Nitrate other than plants breaking down.

...Now I feel like I'm stealing your method of taking care of your tanks

I wouldn't worry about that. I am of the philosophy of not reinventing the wheel unless there is something wrong with it.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric