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So say you go with the bio-balls idea.
Drill a bunch of holes in the acrylic. Fill the think with the bio balls. Add a powerhead to pull the water into "biofilter" then with the powerhead have it piped up to stream out behind a rock or something of the sort. Thus simulated a natural spring? Ahh just my 2 cents!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Ok, just a bit of an update. I've finished with attaching the screen to the pvc structure, and bought some rocks to attach to it. I busted up one rock pretty well into smaller peices, but the 2 other rocks have taken chips out of my hammer and put dents into the sidewalk two stories below my bedroom window. The rocks are just fine - no worries there. So aside from breaking up rocks(any ideas?) I'm coming across problems with attaching them to the pvc structure. I bought some masonry bits to drill through some of the peices, but after 20 minutes I gave up with a hole of about 1 cm deep. The smallest peices I can silicone to the structure, but the larger ones I was hoping to screw into the pvc and silicone over the end of the screw and cover with sand or something to that effect, but I won't be drilling for 6 hours. I'm guessing adhesive or fishing line. I'm leaning towards fishing line only because I don't think an adhesive of any type will work(and continue to be stable for any amount of time). I don't really want the fishing line to be visible in the tank, but that might be the only way to do it. Maybe I can paint it the same color as the rock or maybe I can score the rock so the fishing line will fit down into the rock, effectively making it invisible. That might work, and it won't take so long to score it as it would to drill it.

Anyways, some pics of stuff. I think it's turning out ok so far. I had to make a few cuts and do some sewing. Something my old home-ec teacher might be proud of.

Tools of the trade:


Nearly complete, a bit easier to visualize from this point anyhow:


Mostly this pic is for some of the rock peices visible in the back, and another angle of the pvc structure:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

This is a very interesting thread you've got going here. I can't wait to see this thing in the tank! Keep the pictures coming!

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Thanks rick I'll try to keep up with the picks. Right now I'm a bit stalled out though, as I'm not too sure what to do with the rocks.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matt would you mind taking some picture of the rocks on your contraption? Is the net to tight to hug the rocks?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Matty,

Sorry about my lack of entries, I am being buried with work. But what do I read there - you want to attach the rocks with fisching line? Hm, I wonder if that would be stable enough. I would not go that route, but hey - you are the handy man here, I am only the worrier

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
Is it just you or a German thing to always be playing war?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

... always be playing war?

Only with you Wings

No, I just think out loud and wonder about how things are supposed to work out, it is a very mind-boggeling contraption that Matty is building there.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matt would you mind taking some picture of the rocks on your contraption? Is the net to tight to hug the rocks?

I would love to take picks with rocks on the contraption....however, I have not yet been able to get any rocks onto the contraption long enough to back away and snap a pic. The rocks will have to go on the outside of the netting, so they will be visible. Only gravel will be under the netting, and yes it's pretty tight, I don't want a saggy waterfall. It does crunches. and eats whole grain.

you want to attach the rocks with fisching line? Hm, I wonder if that would be stable enough. I would not go that route

You are only allowed to say stuff like that IF you have a better idea that I can implement. Otherwise, it can only be praise for my dark genious...muwahahaha..haha..heh.... For which(other ideas, not praise) I am still waiting, mainly for my own brain to come up with something because I understand now how handy you guys are. Seriously though...anybody? Or with how to break rocks. I can't be the only one who's had that issue. It's not like I just dropped them from 20 feet, I hurled them with all my measly strength and dented the sidewalk. I think I'll invest in a chisel and big hammer and maybe a guy to hold the chisel.

I'm thinking if they make fishing line to hold a 20LB trout or bass or something it can hold up a 1lb rock for eternity. So I'm not too worried there. It's mostly the visibility issue I'm having with it.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,



What a clever response, if you would be only half as witty when it comes to splittig rock then your problem would already have been solved .

Seriously, isn't fossilized wood one of the most solid rocks out there? I think that the only way to get smaller pieces is to cut them up with one of these fancy slicers. Tetratech and I both tried to throw and hurl rocks before, I think he even tried the fossilized wood type, and all we got were dents all over the place, like driveway, garage, head, and what not.

The fishing line issue is not one of strenght of the line itself, it is a question of assuring that the way you wrap it around the rock and how you secure it onto the contraption does not allow the rock to move, turn, or even wiggle itself out of the line (for example - over time during water changes etc) and fall down.

As for a better idea - Sorry, but you are way more handy with these things.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matt,
Let me get this right. You have two layers of netting? That way you can put the eco inbetween them? My thoughts are that you should make the netting looser thus to create pockets to hold the rocks. That way if you ever want to pull them out you can just pick them up.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Hubby broke rock for me by placing the rock to be broken on an old paver. Then putting some sort of chisel thing on the rock & bashing the chisel with hammer. By the time we were finished, both my rock was broken into the several pieces I wanted & also the paver underneath split in 2 (so we were glad we didn't just try it directly on our paving itself).

I have no ideas for the connecting of rocks to your contraption - but I am very impressed with your concept, contraption & determination so far (so no ideas, but you sure do get my praise)

Cheers
TW

Tetratech and I both tried to throw and hurl rocks before, I think he even tried the fossilized wood type, and all we got were dents all over the place, like driveway, garage, head, and what not.

I'm just imagining tetra driving out to LFs house and bringing his rock collection. The two shake hands and then say, " OK, are we ready?" then start throwing rocks at each other's heads trying to break them

Sorry

Matty, I think 20lb test fishing line will do the trick. It's more a matter of the rocks slipping out of the way they're tied on. Unless I'm picturing this wrong...

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Back in the saddle!

Matt,

How precise do you want to be when breaking the rock? When we were putting in a flowerbed at the house we had to break some rock. I went to HomeDepot and bought their heaviest sledge hammer, put on my steel toed shoes, and proceeded to whack the hell out of it.

Not very precise but I had nice manageable rocks and no stress.


Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

I'm just imagining tetra driving out to LFs house and bringing his rock collection. The two shake hands and then say, " OK, are we ready?" then start throwing rocks at each other's heads trying to break them

Are you tripping man

My Scapes

NowherMan6,

How did you know? You must have been that creepy guy who was hiding behind the hedge when we did that

But I guess you missed the part before the rock splitting attempt, because we had a few beers first. As such, aiming was not our strenght and besides a few broken windows, some dents in the driveway, and one or two scrapes tetratech and I escaped unharmed

Matty - nothing new there?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matty - nothing new there?

Well I won a couple skins in a 2 day golf tourney in Cleveland Ohio.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Great Matty,

Maybe you can use the skins as a cover for the mesh and then the pipes wouldn't show so much (I know, I know, this one was lame).

I am glad that you have the luxury of having time with this project, I guess if you would be in a rush it would have failed already.

Keep us posted, on the tank and golf,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I do plan on using today to try and finish it, but haven't gotten started yet. I meant to tell you Wings, that I really like the pocket idea. If I can't get the fishing line to be mostly invisible, or if it desn't work, I'll use that idea. The pockets would just be difficult to implement, but sounds like it would work great. I'll keep it in mind, thanks.

Well I'm off to HD and wal-mart(can you beleive they don't sell fishing line at Home Depot )Updates later.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi,
My two cents...
Petrified Wood is wood in which the cellulose has been
replaced, usually by silica, and is in essence similar
to a chunk of glass. It won't fracture (break) into
pieces that you want but rather into "chunks." If you
are determined to use what you have, then slicing it
with a rock saw is your only real option.
Check locally to see if there is not a gem or rock club
in your area. At least one of their members would have
access to a saw. Another option is to check with your
local museum of natural history. The resident geologist
should have access to the saw and you could probably talk
him/her into helping.

You would be better off if you were to switch to a
sedimentary rock such as sandstone, mud stone, or shale.
They can be cleaved into pieces with the correct hammer
and chisel. A carpenter's hammer is not appropriate for
working rock. The face is too soft.

This is a link to the appropriate hammer:
http://www.bergsrockshop.com/cgi-bin/product.php?item=Estwing%20Rock%20Hammers
The Estwing hammers are THE best.
I'd choose one of the 22 ounce ones.
You have the option of a "pick" or a "chisel" at one end
along with the flat striking surface at the other.

Be sure to use a chisel designed for stone (masonry) work.
Be sure to wear safety glasses, and gloves as the shards
will cause damage to your flesh and eyes if you are not
protected.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks Frank, that was very informative. I wish I had access to cool tools like that. I ended up buying a 4lb hammer and some carpenters chisels that were cheap, so I didn't care if they got messed up. I strapped on my safety goggles and went to work. I feel that if I were to put some time into it, that it would break, but for now I decided to just go with what I have so far, and use the two large peices as is. I did end up with a major acheivement - first peice of rock attached to structure! This was from the rock that broke easily, and I used fishing line, and it's pretty darn stable. I'll have some pics maybe tomorrow, and I'll try to get some more rock on it as well.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Glad to hear that you are making progress with your approach without having to modify it too much.

I can't wait to see the pictures of it ...

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Alright here's some piccies for ya. I have about all the rocks glued/strung up to this thing as I want, the two leftover rocks may or may not go in along with the waterfall. I paid plenty for them so at the very least we are going to try them out. The rocks were put on the structure in whatever way seemed most stable, so if we don't like it tough. The little rocks are the leftovers, and I thought they were a nice touch that will probably be diminished by the glosso, but might still make an impact, hopefully. So without further ado(I know it's been a while since the last real update):

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Let me know if you think it needs more rocks. If it's in DIRE need of more rocks I can try to bust up another rock, but I'm trying not to. I think it looks ok, and all the pvc and meshwork will be covered by glosso, so you won't be seeing that, in theory. Try to imagine it with the pink highlighter glosso that LF liked. Let me know what you think.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

So far, it looks pretty much like a thing from outer space

OK, let me see if I get this right. The next step would be to fill the area between mesh and inner acrylic block with Eco. Then the process is completed. Sounds good to me.

The hurdles to overcome then would be:

- it may look odd for a while until enough Glosso is covering the waterfall.
- the angle may be too steep for the Glosso to rise up, but I doubt that, as long as it gets enough light from the top.
- Making sure that the Eco stays in the bag
- Overall, number and size of rocks required to make an impact are usually underestimated, at least when I am involved. So, if you have more then I would use them. On the other hand, only healthy and naturally grown Glosso would be able to climb up over the rocks.

That is it for now

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You've certainly got some mad scientist in you, I'll give you that much.

The little rocks will be overgrown in no time. In the end you may only have 4-5 of the big ones showing through.

How are you going to initially plant the glosso through the mesh?

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Back in the saddle!

I think it is a very interesting project you have. I would say that more rocks would look better, but honestly I know what you mean when you say you don't want to bust anymore rocks.

-Vincent

Sooo impressed with the time & effect & the result. Breaking rocks is a pain, but more rocks wouldn't hurt. Can't wait till this is finished & in your tank & we see the end result.

Keep the pics coming.

Cheers
TW

I could definitely start to visual it. It hope it works out, either way it's more DIY under your belt.

PS. I don't know what's gonna happend first your waterfall or my saltwater. I'm still deciding on equipment, but that's another thread.

My Scapes

The next step would be to fill the area between mesh and inner acrylic block with Eco. Then the process is completed. Sounds good to me.

Sounds good to me too. I'll get this all done sunday, along with a wet run.

The hurdles to overcome then would be:

- it may look odd for a while until enough Glosso is covering the waterfall.
- the angle may be too steep for the Glosso to rise up, but I doubt that, as long as it gets enough light from the top.
- Making sure that the Eco stays in the bag
- Overall, number and size of rocks required to make an impact are usually underestimated, at least when I am involved. So, if you have more then I would use them. On the other hand, only healthy and naturally grown Glosso would be able to climb up over the rocks.

hmmm - I'm not sure that I can allow any more lists in my thread....out with ye . but umm, anyways, that sounds about right, and the glosso will be growing down as well as up, hopefully. I have two more rocks, and they are large, and I'm thinking of using them in front of the waterfall and/or on top of the waterfall. That should make an impact.

You've certainly got some mad scientist in you, I'll give you that much.

muwahahahaha

How are you going to initially plant the glosso through the mesh?

I might not have to do this and just let the glosso grow up/down on it's own. If it won't do that for me then I'll try to plant it into the mesh, I haven't figured out how I would do that though.

honestly I know what you mean when you say you don't want to bust anymore rocks

For real. I think it would take a couple hours of pounding away at one of those bad boys to break it up. I'm not up for that, really.

Sooo impressed with the time & effect & the result. Breaking rocks is a pain, but more rocks wouldn't hurt. Can't wait till this is finished & in your tank & we see the end result.

Thanks tankwatcher. I can't wait as well(one reason I'm not busting any more rocks). Should be a good time.

I could definitely start to visual it. It hope it works out, either way it's more DIY under your belt.

True enough. I'll be bummed out if it self destructs though.

PS. I don't know what's gonna happend first your waterfall or my saltwater. I'm still deciding on equipment, but that's another thread.

Dibs on mine.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

This is really turning into a contraption! Right now it looks funny with the rocks all dangling from the mesh but once the gloso grows on it, it should look more natural than hanging rocks.

It seems the race is on!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Ok, finally I'm a bit ahead of schedule. I got a bit of time tonight after work to get things started. Really the only thing to fuss about right now is the position of the two large rocks in the final pic, as for now the netting seems to be holding, and everything looks good as far as leaks and equipment. On to the pics:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I just have to say, that this tank will be amazing if it works out like you plan, I have a bunch of riccia in my 46 bow so I may try to do something like this. Awesome idea!

I like the position of your two rocks. when the tank is finished I think that it will give it a sense of movement.

-Vincent

Well, hats off the the creativity of mattyboombatty. I hope you have time to finish this soon. Will eagerly check this thread. Can't wait to see it all together with water & riccia.

Cheers
TW

All right, we are getting somewhere

I take it that the area between net and center block is also already filled with Eco, right?

And I hope you filled the tank afterwards with water, I doubt that extended exposure to air (or lack of liquid as available in the bag) is good for the goodies in the Eco

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Awesome idea!

well we'll see if it is or not in a few weeks I guess.

I hope you have time to finish this soon.

Well I have to take a week off starting wednesday, so don't get your hopes up. I'm going to visit my sister and her brand new baby, Matt's an uncle for the first time.

I take it that the area between net and center block is also already filled with Eco, right?

And I hope you filled the tank afterwards with water, I doubt that extended exposure to air (or lack of liquid as available in the bag) is good for the goodies in the Eco

Yep and geez....give me a little credit.


So what do people think about the rock placement(glad I have budz approval, thanks )? Should I get another, or two?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

As I have stated before. It seems the rocks are only dangling on there. Once you get the Glosso growing it might help make them look like they are part of the hill. Overall the rocks look like they are in good placement.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Matty,

I would leave it as is, meaning the number of rocks. I could imaging that the glosso will have, at least initially, a hard time climbing over the rocks. So this way, you provide more Eco surface for it to grow in.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I guess there's a bit of confusion, sorry wings. I meant the two large ones that are sitting in the substrate. Those I can easily move around, stand more upright. I could get another large on and throw it up on top of the structure. I was wondering what people thought I should do with those.

Attached Image:

These two, or maybe more?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Sorry about the confusion. It was probably my fault!

The bottom rocks look pretty good. Maybe stand up the back one a bit higher?

On top maybe a medium large rock that is long and narrow?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Matty,
I think they look pretty good as this point, but that's the type of thing you'll have to adjust as the growth comes together.

My Scapes

Thanks guys, so I might want one more rock or two....maybe. I guess we'll see how it grows in.

So I planned well and put about 1ppm of ammonia in the tank before I left to see my neice for the first time(I'm still in Ohio). I also put in some mulm and bio rings from my display tank at work into my filter to start things out because the eco complete didn't seem to be doing anything in the few days it had been up. I'm not so sure that eco complete is actually biologically active. Might still be a great plant substrate though, I guess I'll find out. I'm hoping to come home to a tank halfway through the cycle. That way it will only be a week or so before i put plants and fish in.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well I'm back home today, and I tested for ammonia and nitrite. The ammonia is down from 1ppm to a little more than .1ppm, and there is no nitrite. I guess I need to test for nitrates but I would have to guess that it's all pretty much cycled straight through.

Also, the contraption is holding up well without any rips in the mesh or rocks falling off. So far so good.

So my plans are to take my saltwater light(36" 2X96W PC) and move it to my freshwater(buy new bulbs of course) and buy a new light for my saltwater tank. For anybody interested, I'm probably going to go with T5HO for the salt tank. I'm unsure whether I'm going with an IceCap retrofit or with a Tek Light fixture. So until I get a new light, I'll be maintaining the cycle with a little drop of ammonia every day or two. I estimate a couple weeks. Since my b-day just passed, I think I have enough gift money to cover it.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Good to hear all is going smoothly

Mmm, TEK lighting Those fixtures are gorgeous.

Since my b-day just passed, I think I have enough gift money to cover it.

That's the spirit! Spend every last dime on aquarium supplies!

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Back in the saddle!

Actually I ended up going with the IceCap retrofit kit. I heard they just do a really great job with T5s right now. That's the only setup I've seen actually going on a tank, and all his corals were just popping in color, even the sps. Now I can get myself some acros and actually keep them colorful. The lights were super bright, I'm not sure that I'll be able to run all 4 bulbs on such a small tank like mine. I'll have to get 2 timers and run 2 for 12 hrs and 2 for 6 maybe.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Blah blah blah....dark side stuff........



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

*shakes fish at wings*

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hate when you spray the fish slim all over!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Well I tested out the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate today, they tested out as .025-.1, 0.0, and 25 respectively. I would suppose that this means I'm pretty much cycled, the .1ppm of ammonia is probably just left overs from what I added yesterday, which was about .5ppm in the tank. This really is a great way to kill the time before I get my lights, worked out almost perfect, as I should be getting my SW lights monday(late due to bank error, never changed my billing address like I asked), so I can switch over monday or tuesday and get things started before classes start. Monday or tuesday I'll do near a 100% water change before I get plants and fish, start the CO2 and add macros and micros before I get plants and fish. Sound like a plan?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well, Amano uses little lighting, no ferts and no CO2 the first week or so of a set-up. I believe the Senske brothers do the same, at least very little in terms of ferts right off the bat. Others I guess do differently. I would be inclined to just give it a few days to let the plants settle in before pumping the CO2 and fert dosing. If they're adjusting to a new environment they won't do much in terms of fert uptake anyway. Plant heavy.

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Back in the saddle!

Also no fish for the first 3 or 4 weeks until the plants get going. They also do ALOT of water changes. Well that's the two camps right there. Does no3 and po4 cause algae or not? Will it cause algae in a non-planted tank, etc? Why does Amano and Senske not dose right away. Probably not a problem running co2 right away, especially if there are no fish in the tank.

My Scapes

I think the idea is that algae use N P etc just the same as plants do. When you first plant the aquarium the plants are going to take a few days to settle in before growing in earnest. Algae spores are present everywhere anyway. So if the plants aren't growing you're basically just feeding the algae. There's an interesting thread on APC - tetra, I'm sure you've seen it - about the realtionship between healthy plants and low algae growth, with some people hypothesizing that perhaps healthy plants give off some kind of algaecidal chemicals that keeps the tank algae free so long as the plants are growing well. It's an interesting concept, because it's the only idea ive read so far that reconciles the fact that plants and algae use the same elements for food, yet when plants are healthy and those elements are provided in abundance, algae is still kept at bay.

Amano is a meticulous note taker, and as he's had many years of experience with this I'm sure he's noted how fast plants start to grow and bud after initial set-up, so I'm pretty sure there's a reason for his methods. The Senske brothers set up tanks for clients in conference rooms etc, so they can't afford to have a "messy" period for new tanks. That's why I'm so interested in following their start-up methods. It works so well for them, why not tap their knowledge to start off one's own tank cleanly?

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Back in the saddle!

Yeah I have seen that thread. I've been on their alot talking the talk about light/waste/plantmass.

I see where your going with the algaecide thing, but I don't really buy that. I've seen some very healthy plants under a ton of algae in high-light tanks because IMO there is too much waste in the tank.

There is a thread on APC where someone asked Jeff S. how they keep a clients tank clean from the getgo. Pretty much what we've been talking about.

Shorter light duration
No fish (3 to 4 weeks)
Easy on the ferts
Lots of water changes

If you look at the list 2 of them curtail waste in the water column and the shorter duration would certainly slow any algae growth.

BTW - Jeff S also credits ADA Soil for getting the plants off to a fast start which keeps the algae from getting a foothold. He does mention that he still get's the diatom phase and dumps otos and shrimp a la amano!

My Scapes

Good point, and I'm by no means saying I buy it either, I just find it very interesting and something worth experimenting with and exploring further. No point in discarding a pretty much untested theory. I think it has more to do with having too much organic build-up, which is what bensaf has been saying for a while.

Either way taking things slow has shown to be a successful method for several well known 'scapers, so it's definetely one method worth following. There's one thread about one of jeff's tanks and I asked him a few questions about it, and I was shocked when he said he didn't even dose N or P, that whatever came about from fish stock and food was enough for the plants. That's ok for this tank in particular because it was mostly crypts and anubias, but still, pretty wild.

And yes, the diatom stage is unavoidable. For what it's worth, on my 4G I had diatoms for about 4 days. I wiped the glass clean after a few days, they came back for a few days, wiped it clean again and then they were gone for good. No otos or nothin'! Makes me think back to when I first set up my 46, how I was so worried about diatoms and how they wouldn't go away

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Back in the saddle!

There's one thread about one of jeff's tanks and I asked him a few questions about it, and I was shocked when he said he didn't even dose N or P,

Yeah, that's pretty much Amano as well, but doesn't Jeff S pretty much use ADA soil most of the time.

My Scapes

Yep, pretty sure Jeff uses it just about all the time.

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Back in the saddle!

Good discussion, but I dunno 'bout all that. Sounds like it's one way to do things, but not my way. That's the reason I wanted to fishless cycle my tank. This way I don't have to mess around with all that nonsense. I also have access to plants which are already established in my tank at work. They are already used to pretty bright light, CO2, and the whole bit. I'm going to grab some ceylon hygro, chain swords, ambulia, and some ludwiggia from that tank to speed along the procees. I'll get the ratty bottoms to stick in there, maybe get some baby's tears and glosso whenever we happen to get some in. I agree with you nowherman, about the organic buildup being the problem, mainly ammonia. With a precycled tank, there is no ammonia(and I've never had a diatom phase in a cycled tank). I plan on having fish in there at the most a week (probably a couple days) after the plants. With a cycled tank and healthy plants from the getgo, I see no reason why I should wait on a few fish.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Very interesting thoughts on tank start up theories.

When I set up my 40G I really didn't know what I was doing.
~I first rinsed the Flourite (not well enough)
~Filled the tank
~Placed a brand new filter on it
~Used it as a fish storage as I was moving
~Planted it will Plants from my 20G
~Put the light from my 20G on it(15W)

I was pretty amazed how the plants seemed to take off from what I had in the 20G from just the different Sub.

It was probably at least a week or so before I added the 130W light.

I didn't get into real ferts for even longer and CO2 even longer after that.

I think I had some diatom algea but not for long and for the most part I haven't really had any major problems with aglae.

My worst was green spot but I have set up the lighting break for a couple of hours and I don't seem to be getting the GS any more.

Just my 2 cents. Now don't bug me until I finish my final paper!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

So when does the planting start That mountain is looking awfully bare...

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Back in the saddle!

I hear ya on that. Next week sometime. The light should arrive monday or tuesday, then I need some time to get the salt light up and working before the old one can go on the fw tank. I'm thinking thursday or friday.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well,

A short comment on the fish after plant topic -

With a cycled tank and healthy plants from the getgo, I see no reason why I should wait on a few fish.

I would go so far as to say that as long as there are healthy plants in sufficient numbers in the tank it doesn't matter what-so-ever if the tank is cycled or not if one wants to add "a few fish". In my experience (albeit a limited one, as you all know), cycling a planted tank is not required. Matty, if you are not going to add a large load right away then I would say that your cycling was not required, but I am sure you knew about this opinion.

Ok, different topic. I don't remember, but did you mention any driftwood?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Since you are going to force it out of me Ingo, I was planning on a medium sized school(maybe 6) of each the threadfin and preacox. Just a few, and maybe a couple bottom feeders or something. It's not a large number really to start with, but they are a bit more sensitive a fish than I am used to starting out with. So I'm a bit nervous about that. Then a few weeks down the line, maybe doubling that or adding another 3 or 4 of each.

I'm not sure if I am going to be getting some driftwood or not, LF. I had contemplated some in the back left corner. Not much, and not too high or exposed so as to take away from the structure on the right, but maybe I can find just enough to be a nice touch. I dunno. That's something I can add later in an LF style teardown or somesuch. At first I just plan on getting some plants growing healthy and some fish in there. I'm sure the left side of the tank will go through many different looks before I get one I like. I may just go with a "hotch potch" of grassy plants and buzz cut stems. I have been toying with the idea of cabomba or ambulia cut to about 3-4 inches in the back. I think it would look nice peeking up over the other grasses.

Meh*shrugs* just throwing out some ideas. Feel free to jump in with any you might have. I'm very open to suggestions right now on the plants and hardscape on the left side of the tank. Just don't jump in too late, you guys like to throw out ideas after I've already made up my mind.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

What if you do some branchy DW out of hill and around it?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I've thought about it, though I don't have a good source for branchy DW in the area. Seen any good internet sites selling the branchy stuff?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

That's something I can add later in an LF style teardown or somesuch.

Yeah Baby

How about if you start off your plants with a set of fast growers that you then replace with more permanent plants afterwards. Like some Hygro and what not. Depending how green your hill gets, maybe having some reddish plants closest to it would create some nice contrast. The easiest of these should be some crypts. For the way left corner, I would pick something very green again, maybe the Ambulia. Pearl Grass would look nice as a middle area setup.

That's all plant advice for now, not feeling most confident these days in making good suggestions.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Aww you should feel confident in your planting ability, LF. Everybody gets busy, it happens. I like your advice, but I probably won't go with any crypts, at least at first. I want to try out a bunch of plants that I've never grown before, due to too little light or space, or whatever reason. I''ll probably play around with that for a while, at least until my glossofall looks nice and filled in, then I'll go for the real deal.

Weeeeell, I got my SW lights today and they are up and running, which means that I purchased a new bulb for the planted tank and now have the fixture ready to roll. Plants tomorrow night

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I got some plants in there last night after the 100% water change, and the lights are going to be on today . The water change only took about an hour with my homemade python, so I'm contemplating doing near daily 10-15% water changes for the next couple weeks. Anyway, I got some potomageton, stargrass, chain swords, microswords, baby's tears, cylon hygro, nesea, ambulia, peruvian ludwiggia, and I think there's one I'm forgetting about. I also plan on coming home with some fish tonight, 6-8 of each threadfins and preacox rainbows. I think I'm going to hold out on bottom feeders until we get some dwarf cory cats in.

pH is at 6.7 and KH is 5.5 for upper 20's in CO2. I turned that up a hair this morning. I dosed a bit of nitrate, PO4, and K2SO4 to get the ball rolling, and just a minute amount of traces. The ceylon hygro is established and grows so fast that It will probably take care of all that today while I'm gone.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

So did you go ahead and fully plant last night, or just put them in there to be arranged at a later time? If you planted full out, did you hardscape the left side of the tank at all?

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Back in the saddle!

Where's the pictures my man?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Where's the pictures my man?

I second that notion. Can't wait to see how it looks with plants!


Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

aright aright.







I planted them last night, but in no real order. This isn't an aquascape per se, but I will probably leave as is for a while. I got some fish today as you see, and they(preacox and featherfin rainbows) are currently floating and acclimating cup by cup. They are still freaked out and lacking in color, but I hope they will quickly recolor in a day or so. The plant I forgot about was didiplis in front of the ambulia.

And now I have something special to show you:



On the first day, not from a water change, but real pearling.

Sorry, I'm exhausted, so that's it.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hey matt, looks great, but what's that thing in the back that looks like the DeathStar?

Haha, just kidding. Can't wait to see it with the glosso.

Thanks Nate, Joe is going to order me in some for this week. I'll stop in whatever night he gets it in.

After that comment I'm afraid I might have to do something...

...alike this:

Hangin' in the stars suspended from the dark
Life is long and heavy like a shadow on a spark and it will blow
Massive killer orb hovering around
Looking for a spot to blast the good guys on the ground before they know
What hittem from above

Death star something so incredible
Something indesctructible
Massive and maniacle
Teeny weeny vulnerable hole

Somewhere deep inside shifty to the core
The tank is full and fueled by the
Dark side of the force
That makes it go to and fro killing
Black hearted ball roll the devil's dice
Destroy it one more time cause it's so good they built it twice
But now no more

-"Death Star" The Presidents of the United States of America

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Very nice Matty

And the death star is much smaller than I feared it might be. Not because it is not pretty but because I thought it may overwhelm the tank.

Nice pearl on the baby tears (right?) as well, and even better photograph.

So, if I count that right then you added 10 feathers and 8 preacox at once, thanks to your ammonia cure, right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Good job Matty

Hope you get the glosso soon. Can wait to see that, but it is getting easy now to imagine how nice it will be. /:'

Cheers
TW

Glad to see you packed it with plants from the Getgo. I know you did the ammonia thing, but I'm still wary of all those meaty fish going in at once, although the threadfins are quite small.

I could definitely invision the glosso falls looking really good. Looking forward to seeing more shots as the tank matures. I think the gayli could work nicely near the fall.




My Scapes

Good start Matty Lots of plants, nice.

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks for the comments guys, I was pretty much wiped out last night so I didn't add much.

Not because it is not pretty but because I thought it may overwhelm the tank.

Admit it, you think it's uggs

you added 10 feathers and 8 preacox at once, thanks to your ammonia cure, right?

Yup, and I'm not really afraid of any problems. I'm sure it will be pretty easy. I'm going to do as many water changes as I can this week. I'll feed pretty light once a day. Next sunday I plan on adding more preacox. I can't add any more threadfins cause we have no more females. I only got to take 3, and that was all that was in the tank. I hope to even that out sometime. There's a pretty even mixture of female/males of the preacox at the store, so I can grab a few more of them.

Hope you get the glosso soon. Can wait to see that, but it is getting easy now to imagine how nice it will be.

Thanks Tankwatcher, I should be able to get the glosso tuesday. If I have time(read if labs don't start on the first week) I'll try to carefully plant some into the mesh of the death star so that it will spread faster. That's if I have time. I'll definitely put a lot of it in the tank, on the top of the falls, and the bottom. That section of the tank gets a TON of light, the falls sits right under the light, and it's only maybe 6-8 inches away from it. Might be a good scenario for the glosso, but I can see problems if I don't get things right.

Glad to see you packed it with plants from the Getgo.

You might want to kill me but I really couldn't justify less. All of it only cost $12. A lot of it was free cause I grew it and the stargrass was free cause it was going to get tossed it was in such bad shape. The fish were more though.

I know you did the ammonia thing, but I'm still wary of all those meaty fish going in at once, although the threadfins are quite small.

Oh ye of little faith. I don't think these guys will quite put out 1ppm of ammonia per day like I was adding to the tank towards the end just to keep some ammonia in there. I think after cycling the tank had something like 100-200ppm of nitrate cause I pulled as much water as I could out of the tank, and after I filled it up there was still 5-6 ppm of nitrate in the tank. The most that could have been left in the tank was a couple gallons of water. And what's with "meaty" fish. Rainbows are pretty slender in general. These are dinky fish. A molly is a meaty fish. The threadfins aren't even close to an inch yet, and the preacox barely made that mark.

But like I said I'll probably do some small water changes just because they are a little more sensitive than your average fish. There's some floating plant matter I need to collect anyways.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Alright you filled your tank for 12 bucks? Thats not bad at all. The plants you said that you grew. Did you grow them at home and then bring them to the store or grow them in the store and count them as you growing them?

Looks pretty nice. I can't way to see more!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I grew them in the store in my display tank.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ahh I see! I need one of those. The boss has talked about it a little bit but I figure I will be gone before it turns into more than talk. I have kind of taken over the discus tank but we have to use it to sell fish (the discus) and plants that are too large for the smaller tanks. Someday.... just maybe..it might happen.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I love the way the plants are set now. It looks kind of like a jungle. Those rainbows look pretty stressed out, was it a long ride home? Anyway can't wait to see more pictures of how the tank develops.

-Vincent

Yeah wings, it's kinda nice in situations like these, but I've more(way more) than earned the price of these plants I've taken home by making a nice planted tank(hours of work on it) that people always point at and say "what's that plant?" or "what ferts do you use?" or "what kind of substrate, lights...etc?" That alone sells a lot. Plus we sell trimmings from that tank and make money that way. Display tanks are a wonderful tool to spread knowledge about as well. I may have to hand it over now that school is starting and I will only be at work once a week.

Budz- Thanks, I kinda like it as well, but it's not what I've envisioned for the tank, just what I threw together. I'll keep it this way until I feel things are established, keep a few plants I feel I can use for the final outcome, and sell or give the rest back to my LFS.

The rainbows were stressed, but no more than the thousands of other fish I've seen in bags. They've settled in pretty well now, but still have a little ways to go before I'd call them comfortable.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Yeah that is the basics of our Discus tank too but its hide in the back of the store because discus are shy. The new tank if it ever comes about would be out front some where.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Well I had one casualty with a threadfin, the rest are all accounted for and seem to be settling in well. Plants are growing(hygro has grown about 4 inches already) and pearling every evening. No algae to speak of yet - yet meaning I'm sure I'll get a little eventually.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Sorry to hear about the threadfin. Whenever you buy alot of fish, good chance something happens to at least one. Doesn't matter if you putting them in a 50 or a 500 gallon tank. Looking forward to seeing some glosso.



My Scapes

Yes Matty,

Sorry about the fish. I hope he/she didn't show any signs of illness and simply died of the stress of moving.

I have to say that I am most jealous of your pearling. Why does that not happen in my tanks? Oh - maybe it is the fast growers as now I remember to have had it in the very early stage of the 40G, but not to an extend as one can see in your picture.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sorry about your rainbow. It always sucks to loose a fish.

So right now you have the plants in the tank and a bunch of rainbows. Are there any aglae eaters on the way? Shrimp or Otos? I thought the game plan for planted tanks was aglae eaters then normal fish.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks for the condolences guys, I think one more might go though. It's not eating as the rest are and is hanging out by itself. No signs of disease, just looks bad, skinny and stressed. I expected a couple might go as tetratech said, and lets face it, they were the first group of fish to enter the tank, cycled or not. Threadfins are delicate and all that business.

So in response to wings: I don't have any immediate plans for algae eaters at all. If I absolutely need them I will get them. First, if there's no algae I'll never get them, cause I don't want to feed them. I'm not particularly fond of plecos in planted tanks(but in general I do like plecos, which is unfortunate), and I'm just not fond of ottos and the way they always die on me. That leaves shrimp I guess, which from what I understand, won't do well with dwarf cichlids, and I plan on a couple of those. So if I have an algae problem, I will probably try to manage it myself first.

So far I have completely disregarded the "game plan" for planted tanks. I fishless cycled, I added a non-natural structure, I added non-algae eating fish right away, the lights are on full blast for 12 hrs a day....

In other news, I just recieved my glosso. Joe is a good guy. I'll be spending some time today planting the six bunches of it that I got. If you saw where the stargrass was, I'll be removing that, or maybe moving it if I can find space, and putting a lot of the glosso there, then some on the top, and trying to plant some into the mesh, which is pobably not going to work out.

Here's a pic from I think the day before yesterday:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

Your tank is looking pretty nice. I think as long as the glosso will cover the PVC you will have a very sweet looking hill in your tank too.

The plant in the middle is Pearl Grass right? I need to get my hands on that stuff! Looks like fun!



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I'm pretty sure baby's tears is hemianthus micranthemoides. Whatever pearl grass is, I'm not sure.

I just had the HARDEST time EVER changing the water on this tank. The hose blew up 3 times(hose came off barbed connecter). *shakes fish at hose*. I have 2 large puddles on the rugs. I think I need something to drink.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Pearl Grass, Pearl Weed, Baby Tears.......all the same thing I think.

Aren't common names cool!

Sorry to hear about your water change troubles. Don't drink too much that stuff isn't good for you!



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

All's I got is a couple pictures.

Death Star:


And the boring ol' full frontal:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Wow Matty that's starting to look really good. Funny you took out (plant wise) exactly what I would have taken out to make room for the glosso. It almost reminds me of a valley in yosemite or something. Especially with the "falls"

My Scapes

Looking very nice Matty,

Did you have any issues planting the Glosso?

The only thing that surprises me a little is the very limited number of plugs that you added to the sides of the death star. I would assume that planting a lot of them on the lower parts of it would have generated a faster full cover than trying to populated it from the top.

Otos dying: I don't know why, but I have been very lucky that my latest purchase of Otos for the 40G (a few months back now) turned out excellent. Although I neglected all rules of Oto purchase (larger, for a while in store) I haven't lost even one out of 6. Maybe you want to try them again.

Baby Tears: Well - Pearl Grass is not Baby Tears. Pearl Grass's]http://www.tropica.dk/productcard_1.asp?id=048A[/link] name is Hemianthus micranthemoides, and it has been previously called Micranthemum micranthemoides. In the family of Micranthemum is another plant, [link=Baby Tears, named Micranthemum umbrosum. I just thought I share that with you guys.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Very nice but I'm too impatient. I want to see it all covered in.

Cheers
TW

Baby Tears: Well - Pearl Grass is not Baby Tears. Pearl Grass's name is Hemianthus micranthemoides, and it has been previously called Micranthemum micranthemoides. In the family of Micranthemum is another plant, Baby Tears, named Micranthemum umbrosum. I just thought I share that with you guys.

Shoot! Which one do I really want then?

Matty,

Looks good! Now make it fill in faster!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric