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So.....

I bought a 37 gallon aquarium a few weeks ago. I set everything up, making sure to rinse off the "gravel" (I'm using glass accent decorative "stones" that the bag did say was OK for aquariums, as they're also good for floral vases), the two dragons I bought from the pet store, and a variety of plastic plants. I added the water, a tank thermometer, a heater (which the pet store recommended and I set it to the level they recommended).

Unfortunately I didn't wait a week to buy the fish. I bought 5 zebra danios and a beautiful orange beta. They did fine the first few days, and then the beta died, and I found out they all have ich. So I went back to the pet store, talked to the owner/manager, he gave me some nox-ich, and I followed the instructions. The ich cleared up, only to be followed by a combination of mouth fungus, dropsy, and apparently a form of fin and tail rot...

Lovely.

I lost the rest of them.

Then, after talking to the fish guy again, he gave me another product called Maracyn Plus to take care of any remaining bacteria and told me to change 40% of the water prior to treatment, and also sold me some stuff to help with the raised ammonia levels thanks to the dead fish. So, I started the water change, only to find these weird worm-like things that apparently were from the 1 live plant I bought from P**s***t, and that explains why the plant had been rapidly decaying, and also three baby danios... two dead, one alive. I managed to get the live baby danio out of the bucket and into a jar, only to have it die about an hour later.

*sigh*

So, now I have nothing but the water and the decorations in the tank, and I'm treating it for remaining bad bacteria and bad parasites. I'm then supposed to do another 40% water change, and then wait two weeks before attempting to add any new fish.

So, OK, fine. I can do that.

My question is, what kind of fish can I get that won't kill each other, will be hardy, and are of the semi-agressive side, because I want really cool fish. I'm tired of danios and tetras.

I really want some Bala Sharks, but I was told by the fish guy (not from P*t***r*, but a really knowledgeable guy from a smaller chain store, who also told me of this site) that my tank isn't big enough to support Bala Sharks because they can grow to be huge in size.

What I'd love is this cool looking long black fish that has these fluttering sides (sorry, I don't know the name of it). I'd also love some sort of shark. Basically, I want really awesome looking fish that aren't delicate (as in, NOT Angelfish!!!!!!!!!)

I'll post a picture of my tank in the photo section in a minute. I just love my tank. I love the fact that I was able to use the glass accent stones instead of gravel. It really adds depth and beauty to the tank. So do the dragons (which also have air stones and provide more oxygen to the tank).

Thank you in advance for your help!

Ok a few things first
welcome to the site! Glad your LFS managed to direct you here. Most chain pet store employees don't know a thing about fish, and are really interested in selling you things... so before you do anything research it here, we'll be glad to answer any questions.

Next, seems everyones out of the 37 gallon yes? Easiest thing is to keep doing what you're doing to treat for parasites. Do a 50% water change once you're finished.

After that, you need to cycle the tank. I see nothing in your post about going through the cycling process before dumping fish into your tank.
Here is a link on the Cycling Process

Read it before you do anything else, then read it again and let us know if there are any questions about it.

The tank needs to be cycled before you add fish, or you need to select fish that can handle the cycling process. Fish that can handle the cycling process is very limited, and as you've already ruled out danios you should look into doing a fishless cycle. You can use pure unscented uncolored ammonia that you buy at a drug store. Or you can buy Cycle from your LFS. Cycle is one of the few bacterial additives that really does help. It wont cycle the tank over night but if you feel you must put the fish through the stress of cycling a tank it can ease the pressure they are under. Cycling a tank is very stressful on the fish and can result in injuries and death such as you've seen.


It seems you really havent decided which fish you want for your tank. Balas as you've already been told are way out. They are active schooling fish and need a 75 gallon as a minimum tank. From what I've seen from your photos in photo booth this looks to be a tall tank, in which case you need to be very careful that you do not overstock it. Stocking should be considered by surface area, and from the photos I'm guessing your tank has the same footprint as a 20 gallon tank, and therefore the same surface area, and should therefore not be stocked more then you would stock a 20 gallon tank. Gas exchange happens on the surface, which is why surface area is so important, and not just gallonage.





Once of course you know what fish you want the next thing to address is where you buy your fish is very important. You MUST carefully inspect all tanks in the store where you are buying from and most importantly the tank from which you want to buy fish. If any of the fish look ill, are diseased or battered looking, are gasping for breath and generally looking poorly do NOT buy from that store.

When you go to a LFS, do not plan on buying whatever fish you like the looks of until you have come back here to research it fully in the profiles section

Black fish with fluttery sides makes me think black ghost knife which is not a starter fish, nor suitable for the tank you have. If this is the fish you were thinking of, it's a good example of why research into your choices is best done before a fish is bought!


One final issue that I'll mention now, is that when any fish or plant is brought home it is imperative that you do a quarantine period. At the very least, you should not let any of the water from the LFS into your tank. There is a slow and careful acclimatization that is suggested for any new acquisition. Basically, the fish is left in the bag of water from the LFS, or placed in a small bucket, then water from your tank is slowly added over a few hours and removing water from the LFS till the water that the fish is in is the same temp, chemistry and most importantly carrying as few of the LFS nasties as possible. After a few hours of small water changes in this manner it is ok to net the fish carefully and to place it in the main tank. If you have a quarantine tank and can do a 2-3 week quarantine process even better! The acclimatization process remains the same. Slow, and gentle. Transport from the fish store can greatly stress out your new fish so the best care while acclimatizing them can ensure that they survive. When I get new fish I generally try to lay them in a cardboard or styro box, and keep them covered (dark is more restful to fish).


I know I've put a lot out there, since you're new and had so many things go wrong (bettas and danios really don't mix btw) that I thought it'd be best to try and get as much answered as possible. If anythings confusing feel free to ask for clarification, it's what we're here for!....Clarification that is, not confusing you .


^_^

also sold me some stuff to help with the raised ammonia levels thanks to the dead fish

From the sounds of it, you never cycled the tank. The ammonia levels were probably a combination of dead fish and the cycle starting. You need to purchase a freshwater test kit. Avoid the test strips, they are not very accurate. When you tank is cycling, you will have elevated ammonia and nitrIte levels. This is why it is stressful to have fish in the tank. As the cycle winds down, your nitrAtes will climb and the ammonia and nitrItes will lower. Once you reach 0 ammonia and nitrIte, your cycle is complete. With plants you can maintain a level of nitrAte up to 20 with out ill effect on most fish. But if you are going with fake plants, you should be ZERO across the board. (Ammonia, NitrIte, and NitrAte.) I wouldn't chemically treat the ammonia levels until I am sure the cycle has completed. (In the beginning of the cycle you actually want to see ammonia.)

As Babel said you are on the right track.
1. Treat all remaining nasties in the tank.
2. Do a 50% water change
3. Start CYCLE process (could take a few weeks to month and a half.)
4. As tank is cycling, RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH. Look at all the fish you like, look them up, check here to see if they are compatible, check to see if they are available at you LFS!, make a plan for introduction into the tank (you should NEVER dump a boat load of fish in a tank at once.)
5. Slowly introduce each species to their new home!

Delenn not to pry but what country are you located in? It makes it a little easier to suggest purchase locations.

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Hi,
Welcome to FP!
Once you have conquered the current problems, you have
one remaining and that is your choice of "gravel."
Yes, you can use it in an aquarium, but, the problem is
that the gaps between the stones is so large that excess
fish food, and fish poop, falls down between the stones
and just sits there and rots. I would not use the glass
beads as gravel, instead I'd use it as decorations
scattered about the gravel and never one against the other.

Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hi, thank you for the welcome and the advice.

Yes! The Black Ghost Knife fish is the one I saw! Why can't I put it in my tank? It was in a small tank at the store.

As for cycling, that's why I'm waiting two weeks after I finish the treatment. There is already cycling happening from the betas and danios, at least, that's what the pet store indicated. Frankly, I'm not a patient person, and waiting even the two weeks (three including the treatment now, and five weeks from the time I initially bought and set up the tank) is driving me up a wall. I have an empty tank sitting in my living/dining room now and I want to see fish swimming in it!

This particular pet store I do trust. They have been very helpful with all my fish questions, but suggested that you all could help me with particular fish selections/combinations.

I want larger fish, and was only planning on putting about ten or so fish in at the MOST. I do NOT want tropical fish such as danios and tetras anymore. I'm sick of them. I want cool fish!

As for using the glass stones as gravel? Too late. They're already in the tank, and I spent a fortune on them, and I love the look of them (sorry, I tend to be a bit stubborn on things). If this means I need to vaccuum the tank every week, so be it. I'll do it.

I have a good filtration system and a bio wheel, so things seem to be getting back on track.

I would also love to add some shrimp or frogs or crabs if that is possible.

And yes, I found out from the good pet store that the bad pet store steered me wrong. The bad pet store told me I could start adding fish after twenty four hours of setting up the tank... The good pet store said I need to wait a MINIMUM of two weeks, and that a month is preferable (I wasn't thrilled to hear that).

And no, I HATE live plants. All they do is decay and make the tank filmy and icky. Any time I have EVER tried to stupidly add live plants to a tank, they've all decayed and then died. YUCK!

Anyway, I'm from the U.S. so I have **t****t (the bad pet store) and *e* **p***e* **u* (the good pet store) as well as a few very local fish stores in my area which I am very unfamiliar with.

I would love, love, LOVE to have some sort of shark in my tank too. I think sharks are awesome (and that black ghost knife fish)!!!

Oh, and the good pet store (*e* ***pli** **u*) also told me that ideally what I want is a mix of top feeders, middle feeders, and bottom feeders (I'd love to have a loach or two).

Good news: You can buy what your heart desires!
Bad news: It will probably die a horrible death.

Good news: You can get a ghost knife fish.
Bad news: It will out grow the tank.

Good news: You can check with either chain store if they allow trade backs for credit.
Bad news: I doubt they will.

Good news: You can have a beautiful community tank.
Bad news: It's very hard (but not impossible) to do with semi-aggressive to aggressive fish. (They tend to eat each other---> Hint aggression!)

YOU need to do research on what you want!

The gravel *eh, shrugs* that's not ideal, but as long as you are willing to clean the tank... We all understand about money. But you are headed down a very expensive road, if you don't use some patience. Plants are a personal preference. You can actually have a tank devoid of anything but decorations or rocks or driftwood. The live plants just help naturally with the chemical balances of your tank. You most likely have been buying the most colorful plants, which are high light, high up-keep. Again a little research would point you to the low light, low up-keep plants. But that's neither here nor there, since you don't like them...

Okay, enough with the rambling, it's time to go to bed. Good nite!

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Lol. Thanks Kelly.

Yeah, I looked at the stats on the photo you showed me the link for and saw the total length of the fish. Then I measured out the 19.7" and my eyes popped out of my head.

*sigh*

It's just very frustrating.

And yeah, like I said, I'm not at all a patient person, and I get flustered very easily.

But I want a good tank with good fish, just something other than danios, tetras, etc.

As for the plants? I bought what they said was a moneywart. Just a plain green plant. All I've ever bought was plain green plants. And always from **t****t, and they ALWAYS die. So, I learned to hate live plants because all they do is decay and die.

So, OK, as for researching the fish, that's why I came here. But so far, all I've seen people talk about in the fish section is betas, danios, and tetras.

So, what about semi-aggresives? I mean, I've seen lots of cool fish at P***m**t, but the people there don't seem to know much, so when I talked to the guy at **t ***p**e* ***s, he sent me here to learn about and research different fish.

Kelly you just made me

Yah, the 19" is a bit much for that sized tank. Remember you have a TALL tank, and being tall you are going to have to stock it more conservatively.

What constitutes a "cool" fish? why are you bored with danios? I can understand being bored with most tetras, I find them a tad boring as they're rather low on activity unless they're being chased and eaten (an expensive road to go down ).

I'd say look into the barbs. A small school of rosy barbs may do good, though they get big, and I'd rather have them in a long tank instead of a tall tank. Gold barbs and raspboras would also work. They're active fish that are also on the small side (and therefor wont push your stocking levels). Get some of the smaller corys for the bottom and a few plants and driftwood and you'd be golden. Since you're so against live plants I wont push you on the issue. However there are a few that are almost guaranteed not to die. Java fern is really easy, just tie it to a piece of driftwood with some cotton thread and you're done. It doesn't get planted in the substrate, and can grow in very low light conditions.
Anyway, you're against live plants and that's fine. Silk or plastic work fine. We've got a mix of silk and plastic in one of our tanks (the silver dollars insist on eating everything, even java fern which most fish don't touch!) and it's fooled plenty of people into thinking they're live.

Personally I'd stay away from p3t$m@rt. I've never been happy with the cleanliness of their tanks (once I went in and most every fish in every tank was dead, and yet they were still doing brisk business in the fish dept ). Stick with your local store, take a notebook and write down the names of the fish that you like the looks of, even better is if they have the sci name as well. Also write a brief description as most stores won't let you photograph their tanks. THEN come back here and check into their profile information you'll find a link to the profiles up therein the banner. Just type in the name you wrote down. Of course then once you have an idea of the fish you want to stock you can post your suggested stocking list in this thread and we'll double check it for you including our own personal experiences.

Keep in mind, almost any fish you see at your LFS is going to be small. Just like pet stores don't sell adult cats and dogs, they don't sell adult fish. Many times they don't care what sized tank the fish is going into, just so long as they make a sale. I've seen plenty of good stores that sell tank busters. Fish that under no normal circumstance would end up in a tank that could house them as most people don't have aquarium sized tanks to hold fish that get as large as an adult human!


^_^

Thank you Babelfish!

Actually, lol, I just finished some online research and posted a link on the following fish:

http://fishprofiles.com/forums/General_Freshwater/Would_This_Combo_of_Fish_Work_/39182/

because I wanted to know if that combo would work since the max length of the fish is around 5" (except the silver dollars which I have no idea how big they get, so if they're over 5" then I won't do it).

But yeah, I noticed that about *3t-n0t-so-**@r* too. Not in all the tanks, but some.

The other store is very good. If they see something wrong with a tank, they "shut it down" and refuse to sell from the infected tank until it's cleared up again. Hence why I trust them. But, their selection is small.

I don't want danios/tetras/bettas/barbs/etc. because I've had them all before. Tiger barbs are just way too aggressive, and the others are all I've ever had, and I'm overly bored with them. I want something new and different. Fish that I've always wanted before, but couldn't have for whatever reason.

*sigh*

Believe me, if I could have done a bigger and longer tank than the 37 gallon, I would have. I think I *might* have been able to squeeze a 45 gallon into the space the current one is in, but the problem is, I had to set up the tank myself, and the 37 gallon was almost too heavy to lift from my car into the house, and the stand almost made me throw out my back.

So.... yeah, I've got the 37 gallon, which is the biggest tank I've ever had.

So, I'm really hoping that the list of fish I came up with is a good one because I really like the look of all those fish. I mean, if the silver dollar fish are too big for the tank, I can live without them. I just thought the Black Bar Silver Dollar looked awesome!

And they all have the PH range tolerance that my tank water tested out at (the good pet store tested my water and everything on levels was fine except the ammonia and he said the ammonia was only high because of the fish that had so recently died)

And he said that the betta and danios should have helped begin the cycling process even though they all died because they gave off bacteria, etc. and said that I just need to wait a week or two before I can begin adding new fish.

And while patience is not my virtue, I will wait longer if I absolutely have to because I do not want to keep replacing fish.

Anyway, thank you to you Babelfish and Kelly for your help. I do apologize Kelly if I seemed at all snippy before. I am just really frustrated by it all, and I feel like nothing ever seems to go my way in things, but everyone else has no problems. Ex. I have a friend who has a 10 gallon tank... she has a plecostomus (sp?) a frog, and several other fish... she's NEVER had problems.

Meanwhile, I try getting a tank, do everything I'm supposed to, and my fish still die (not including this current tank. I'm referring to my previous 20 gallon. The tiger barbs I had continuously got sick. I would treat them for one thing, get them fixed, and days later they'd get sick again. Where's the fairness in this?!).

So, now I get the 37 gallon and thought I was doing what I was supposed to, and I lose all my stock. It just kind of sucks.

Edit:

Sorry this post keeps getting longer. I don't know the rules about double posting, so I didn't want to do it.

I just finally found the species profile section here and found some possible alternatives (I hope) if you all tell me I can't go with my first choices from the link provided above.

The new list is as follows:

2-3 Honey Gourami
1-2 Blue Gourami
2 Neon Dwarf Gourami (I thought the fish in the picture looked incredibly neat! And I looked at what they eat and the temp needed, etc. and it seemed like something I either already have in the tank or something I could provide)
1 Dwarf Puffer (I figured I'd get your advice on this one. I LOVE puffers and my only concern is that this little guy seems aggressive in spite of his small size so I wanted to know if he'd be alright with the Gourami)
and if possible, 1-2 Amazon leaf fish (or are these fish too delicate to go with the Gourami?)

I chose all these fish because of their small to medium size, and if I do them in the amounts listed above, that gives me a total of 10 fish. I think that's a good amount for the size tank I have.

OK, so can I do either of the groupings I'm looking at? Please?

To be honest? I am liking the look of the second list better than the first....

I responded to your other post. Silver dollars are great but only in a 55 gallon or larger.

Dont' rule out other barbs or rasboras just because of tiger barbs. Gold barbs are some of my favorites, ruby barbs as well. They're both hardy colorful and active without the aggression you see in tigers.

Never kept gouramies or puffers, but I'm pretty sure puffers tend to be kept in species only tanks.

That friend with the 10, just because the fish are alive still, does NOT mean they're happy OR healthy.


^_^

Hi,
Just a caution... "We" don't mention actual names of
stores on this site. Earlier (a few years ago) one of the
large warehouse type stores took a site, its owners, and
those who posted their comments, to court and won.
Since then this site has refrained from naming names,
whether "good or bad" in our posts.

Please edit your post, removing the store names.

Thanks,
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I'm glad you saw the comedy intended and was not offended. When it comes to patience, I've been there, done that. I have the patience, but my family (husband and kids) do NOT. If you follow my earlier threads, you will definitely see it.

You have me a little lost. Have you given up on the semi-aggressive to aggressive tank idea? I said it will be difficult to pull off but not impossible. The biggest limitation is your tank size.

I have a semi aggressive tank with only a few casualties. I know you are not interested in the ordinary but that is what we have in our 55 gal: Angelfishs, neon tetras, black ruby barbs, and yo-yo loaches. The Angelfish tend to be aggressive with each other the most, with the exception of a mated pair. The barbs just want to swim, and by that I mean, race up and down the length of the tank. The neons try to keep out of everyones way. The loaches are the instigaters. They usually pester everyone into some action or another. If the Angels are being to aggressive with each other, I've seen the loaches swim up and put a stop to it.

Like Babel said, most every fish they sell will be a baby or juvie fish. Most people want to watch the fish grow, but have no idea, how MUCH it will grow! I took my family to the store and let them look at all the fish. They got to write them down. I would ask the store clerk about the fish and possibly nix the idea right there. I came here and listed my ideas. Boy!, did I get it! I was even told a thing or two about my plants, which slowly died and turned to mush. So we now have cabomba, anubia, java fern, java moss, frill, swords and anacharis. I would, if I could, get rid of the java moss, but my fish LOVE it to much. It's always on the filter intake and grows like mad.

I noticed in a different post you thought of inverts, like shrimp. Just be careful, most inverts tend to be expensive food for bottom dwellers. I found out the hard way that my loaches love them. Also remember most inverts breed like crazy too.

I think the Gouramis may become cramped with the numbers you are suggesting. Puffers are very aggressive and are usually species only tanks. I'm not familiar with the leaf fish. Have you thought of German rams? I have to take a look at your first list, but no time right now. Maybe this evening, after work.

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Hi Frank, thank you. I didn't know that, and I've edited the names as best I can.


Kelly, I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by a species only tank.

All fish are some sort of species, right, so aren't all tanks species tanks???

Semi-aggressive - aggressive, is there a difference? I was just looking at the profile list here that I stumbled upon (no offence, but it would have been helpful if someone could have told me please, where it was and that there even was one on this site, lol) and I was reading up on what fish seemed compatible with what fish and what their ideal temps were and what they ate (I still don't understand what "hardness" means) and which seemed the most colorful and cool and in some cases (the puffer and Amazon Leaf Fish) a bit unique.

I tried Angel fish once. They were overly difficult to keep. They were too delicate and kept dying, so I have vowed that while they're beautiful, I don't want to deal with them again.

And yeah, I've been reading here about the problems with including shrimp in a tank with other fish, and have decided to nix that idea, lol.

Babel, I've seen the other barbs. They just don't "do anything" for me. I see them in the stores, and my reaction to them is, "Um, yeah, OK..." and then I move on to the gouramis, elephant noses, black ghost knife (still my favorite!!!!), puffers (when they're available), and I think, "Ohhhhhhhhh yeah!!!!!!!!!!!! COOOOOOOOLLLLLL!!!!!!"

And yeah, I had a feeling by the lack of mention of how big they are that they'd be too big for my tank, so I tried not to get too attached to the idea, lol.

But yeah, so the two lists I put together were because of the look of the fish, the setup they "require" (heat, PH balance, food, etc.) and because based upon the profiles and size, seem to be a pretty simple and hardy types of fish to care for. And seemed like they'd be fun to have.

I do have a strong lid on the tank, so I'm not worried about jumpers.

And I'd really love to be able to have a puffer or two. I saw one once (a big one) alone in a tank, and he was soooo cute! A kind of smile on his face, and beautiful eyes, and when I put my finger up to the glass (gently) and moved it, he kept following it... I fell in love with all puffers then and there, lol.

Anyway, is there anything seriously wrong with the two lists I put together (aside from the puffer idea. Although, will he for sure be too aggressive with the other fish? They'd all be bigger than him)? (I'm going to go check your post Babel, so maybe I'll get my answer on that list there, lol)

Thanks again!

OH, and Kelly, regarding the "numbers game", if I did 1 honey gourami, 2 blue gourami, 2 neon dwarf gourami, 1 puffer?, and 1 Amazon Leaf fish (and this is assuming that I can find a pet store that has these fish, especially the last two on my list and that it would be possible to have a puffer), that would put me at 7 fish total instead of 10, so would that be a better fit for the tank?

The pet store told me I could do up to 15 fish in my tank, but honestly? I'd rather only have 7 of the fish I want if it means that this would keep them from being cramped, then 15 of a fish that I'm only settling for that "fit". I want to love my tank, not just be tolerant of it.

Man, I go away for a day and we have people posting up a total storm. I'm not going to read this whole topic, but I'll throw in a few ideas on that most recent post.

I just had to interject that I'm a little surprised that anyone is plugging this site...

A species or species-only tank means a tank with only one species in it.

Semi-aggressive is something that can be kept with most other fish, but you have to be a bit choosy in who to put them with; the most delicate fish probably shouldn't be put with them, and usually they'll be "peaceful" if you just put them with certain types of fish they won't pick on. Aggressive, by contrast, include fish that will try to pound the tar out of any other fish they come across that doesn't fight back. Aggressive cichlids can virtually only be kept with other aggressive fish, or a select few types of fish that they won't pay attention to. Many cichlids are in the aggressive territory.

Haha, wow, you certainly like oddballs. As one of the resident oddball lovers here, I think I can help ya out a little.

Unfortunately, puffers can't really be kept with anything else. They are in the category of aggressive. A puffer will, for no reason at all, pull all the fins off of just about any other fish in the tank with their razor-sharp beaks. Just about the only fish that escape are certain bottom feeders.

You want way too many gourami. Gourami are peaceful with everything except other gourami. I haven't kept dwarf gourami and they may be more peaceful than the other gourami, but I haven't had success with more than one male per tank. I've had success with multiple females of different species, however I've never tried females of the same species. It is easy to tell gender in the three-spot gourami and its breeds (the male has a pointed dorsal fin and the female has a round one) and the pearl gourami (males may have a red chest, and the pelvic fin and dorsal fin rays may be extended). The dwarf gourami is often sold as just males as the females are dull and unattractive, which is unfortunate.

Unfortunately, you won't be able to get a South American Leaf Fish and actually keep it with anything. Firstly, they have enormous mouths; I can't confirm it, but I imagine an adult SA leaf fish would be able to take down your average dwarf gourami. Secondly, I'm fairly certain they only eat live food, so you'd have to provide the fish or insects regularly. I've seen a couple SA Leaf Fish, but their coolness factor has never validated me devoting a tank to one.

--------------------------------------------
The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian.

Species only tanks, means just the one type of fish is in the tank. Semi-aggressive and aggressive is just the degree of meanness you get from the fish. Some fish being semi-aggressive will not pick fights with every little thing in the tank all the time. Aggressive fish tend to want to fight everything, all the time, including it's own species (kind). There a some fish that are so mean, they can't stand themselves, much less something else in the tank!

I think hardness is something you really pay attention to if you go with a Rift Lake or African setup. So in general, you don't need to pay too close an eye on that. The biggies to look at in the tank is: AMMONIA, NITRATE, NITRITE, AND PH.

The quick rule of thumb to look at how many fish COULD possibly live comfortably in the tank is: One inch of fish per gallon. But remember your surface area is closer to a 20 gallon. Add the future adult size of the fish up to give you an idea of how many gourami and amazon leaf fish you could possibly keep in relatively good health.

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Wow, thank you very much Shinigami. Bummer. I was all set for the gourami tank because I went to the pet store today to pick up more plants (fake) and a bit of driftwood deco (fake), and while I was there I asked about cichlids and gourami. The gal told me that cichlids are very aggressive (which you just reiterated, though the three blue ones I saw were so beautiful), and she said that the gourami they have at the store are very peaceful. She showed me the honey sunset gourami, and the dwarf neon gourami, and some emerald dwarf gourami. I didn't see the blue gourami.

She agreed with all of you regarding the dwarf puffer, so, *mega sigh* I've taken him off my list.

I was definitely hoping to find an Amazon Leaf fish, but with what you've just said, I guess I need to steer clear of that one too.

And then I saw the dwarf frogs.....

OMG! They were so cute!!!!! Lazy, lol, but cute.

Anyway, as I really like the look of the gourami, I'm really leaning in that direction, and I guess the only way I'll know for sure if it will work, is to try it out, right?

Oh, and I did buy that Cycle stuff to use after my final water change when I'm done with the medical treatment for the tank (only two days left and I can do the water change!!!!)

Oh, and I'm very glad that the store did tell me about your site because you've all been very helpful, and I've learned a lot, and I hope to learn more through time!


Edit:

Just saw your post, Kelly. Thank you!

Yeah, so, like I said, I didn't see any blue gourami, so for now I am thinking of just having the honey sunset gourami and the dwarf neon gourami, and two or three dwarf frogs (I'm sorry, I'm squeeing here. They were just too cute. The gal did tell me that they're very lazy and just hide, and so I asked if people just get them as a kind of live decoration, and she thought about it for a sec, and then said, "Yeah, I guess they do." OK, I can live with that, lol)

So, until/unless I find the blue gourami, I'm leaning toward 3 honey sunset gourami, 2 dwarf neon gourami, and 1 -2 dwarf frogs, and I'm still looking for bottom feeders, so I welcome any suggestions there. They had clown loaches, and about three different types of cory catfish, but I'm still really curious about kuhlii loaches.

Edit 2:

OK, so my question about kuhlii loaches got answered, and that excites me because I've seen pictures of them and they look neat!

However, if anyone thinks that something else would work better for a bottom feeder, then please, by all means tell me so I can think about it and make a decision from there.

I'm so excited now! Thank you again everyone!

Oh, and of the "bad" pet store? Well, there's two in my area, and I'm starting to think that only one of them is really bad. The other one actually has a pretty knowledgeable person working the fish section, and so I am pretty happy with that store on the whole. It's the other "bad" store that I don't think I'll be going back to. And then there's the really good store from a different chain whom I just LOVE and trust implicitly. Unfortunately, their choice of fish is just very small.

Edit 3 *ducks head at making another edit and blushes sheepishly* :

OK...... So, I was in the profile section (again)... And I found the following:

Clown Killifish; Pakistani Loach, Yoyo Loach; Bronze Catfish, Bronze Cory, Bronze Corydoras, Green Cory; Lightspot Corydoras; Wavy Catfish; Arched Cory, Skunk Cory (this is the cory catfish I've had before! I LOVED him!), False Blochi Catfish (I have some reservations about this one), and of course, the kuhlii loach.

Now, after reading everything on these bottom feeders, the kuhlii is still by far (aside from the arched/skunk cory) my favorite. I think what I like best about him is that he burrows, which I think in terms of the gravel I have in my tank, perfect for him and me because he/they (considering getting a few of them) would then be able to reach the absolute bottom of my tank and pick at the waste and food waste, etc. and help keep my tank clean... yes? And while I like the look of all the kuhlii loaches, I think I like the spotted one I saw here best because his temp needs seem to fit in with the other fish I'm looking at.

Thoughts?

Edit 4:

I almost forgot.... I know the bottom feeders would need to be added last, after the other fish have been in the tank for a while (I'm assuming a few months?), but which fish should I add first, and about how many at a time?

*wonders what spam shini is talking about*

all I saw are posts, remember that??? when we used to POST on this site

Delenn, yoyo loaches IME are pretty darn cool. I got some from a member here that had to go overseas. Depending on the fish you do end up with, and how much cover they have they'd work for the smaller sized tank that you have. They stay on the small side, and made me realize just how big our clown loaches were ! Whatever you do pick for your bottom feeder, remember again that you have a small sized tank, that bottom feeders usually want to be in a school too, and that they add to your total fish count. In other words, stick with the smallest ones that are reasonable. Often when it comes to the corys the smaller they are the more sensitive they are. And you don't even really NEED fish as a bottom feeder. Snails and shrimp are other options. Remember that no fish is going to eat waste, so you'll still be doing weekly maintenance on the tank removing any fallen food along with the waste. So, yeah...basically, they're not needed, but if something does catch your eye stick with the smaller of the varieties.

On the subject of stocking, I was told once, years ago to stock from the top down. It sort of makes sense but not really. Obviously you're going to add the hardiest fish first, then wait a week or two, make sure that ammonia, and nitrIte are both zero before adding any new fish. The longer you can wait between adding fish the better the bacteria population can catch up with the bio load. Cycle won't fully cycle the tank (unless they changed the formula since I last used it ) it'll simply help the tank along. In your case I'd say do a fishless cycle using no fish (obvious I know considering it's called fishless) and either a few drops of clear unscented uncolored ammonia, or a few flakes of fishfood a day until they start to decompose and turn into ammonia.
Even using Cycle I'm not sure you want any of your fish cycling the tank for you. From the looks of your lists none of them are what I'd consider all that hardy.


^_^

OK, thank you Babel. I can do the Cycle, and then a few flakes a day. But then, how much ammonia do I want/need in the tank?

Do I wait a week? Two weeks?

And yeah, clown loaches are big, and from what the gal in the store said, aggressive, so not good with gourami (did I put them on my list? I didn't mean to, if I did. Or, is that what a clown killifish is?).

I did read in the profile section that most of the loaches did seem to prefer at least a small school, so I was thinking of three or 4 kuhlii loaches if that's what I end up with. I was definitely intrigued with the yoyo/pakistani loach (is there a difference between the two, or is that just two different names for the one fish?). I also saw a picture of a zebra pleco, but saw that it's A. hard to get them, and B. are not ideal for my tank, which is sad because it was really pretty! Also, I now remember what my question about the False Blochi Catfish was... what is Barbel Erosion? I noticed that, not just on this species, but a few of them, it was warning about Barbel Erosion, and I have no idea what that is.

Thanks!

Oh, and I am trying to add more plants and deco cover to the tank, while attempting not to make it look weird/overcrowded.

Also, even if the bottom feeders aren't necessarily "needed", I do remember from seeing other people's tanks, who had them, that I thought it was really neat the way they burrowed into and under things, and I kind of really want them.

As far as bottom fish not eating the waste? Yeah, I think deep down I knew that, lol, but was just kind of hoping, you know? Such a shame tilapia are too big for my tank. They'd be ideal for that. It's why some zoos keep schools of tilapia in with hippos... they'll eat the waste that the hippos produce... If you're a fish eater, that will make you think twice about eating tilapia again, huh? Lol. That's about the only fish "trivia" I know because I watched a documentary on something once that was covering zoos and captive animals, and they talked about the hippos, and then showed the tilapia and explained why they were kept in with the hippos, lol. I've never eaten tilapia since, lol.

Thanks again!

OK, so I think the final list goes as follows:

3 honey sunset gourami

2 neon dwarf gourami

3 kuhlii or yoyo loach (if I can find them)

and 1 - 3 dwarf african frogs

And so that still leaves me wondering how many of the gourami I can add at once. Do I add the honey gourami first, and wait a few weeks to add the neon gourami? Or do I start with the neon gourami first since there will only be two of them?

Haha Babel, YOU said spam, not me! But certainly, it is nice to see some activity.

Clown loaches are peaceful if there was ever a peaceful fish. This isn't a rule for all loaches though; skunk loaches I have heard can be fairly nippy.

You sure picked a lot of bottom feeders, but in your tank I'm not seeing how you have more room for maybe two species, especially as the fish types you chose are social and should be kept in groups. 3 kuhli loaches and 6 corys of one species wouldn't be a bad thing, though. I don't recommend mixing cory species; some people say they school, but personally I think they'll be much happier together with the same species.

You'll want to add your gourami all at the same time. This goes against what people normally say; normally you don't want to put too much pressure on your bacteria colony by adding too many fish at a time. The reason to add all the gourami at once is that gourami are territorial, and you don't want any of them taking over the whole tank as their own territory before you add the next ones. I've never kept that many gourami together so I don't know if it'll work. The most gourami I ever had in a tank was three, way back when I first started out. This was in a 55 gallon; I had a three-spot, a moonlight, and a pearl, and they were more or less okay. I would keep an eye on your fish to make sure they are not fighting; if they are, then you will have to remove some, which may mean returning them to the store.

The way around having to worry about the bioload is to do an effective fishless cycle. Get the ammonia high enough so you can feed a good, healthy bacteria colony that'll be able to handle the addition of 5 gourami at the same time. This is why I prefer doing fishless cycles with clear ammonia (ammonia with just water and no fragrances, dyes, or other additives), as you can adjust the amount of ammonia directly without having to wait for the food to decompose.

Kuhli loaches aren't too hard to find, although I'm consistently surprised that they are not more common than they are. Even the national chains should carry them.

My experience is that a kuhli loach will not dig through gravel, at least not very much. Most fish that dig or bury themselves do it in sand, not gravel. I can say this with certainty because I am a bottom feeder keeper, and I have only ever had ONE species dig past the very top layer of gravel (a species of Akysis catfish, but I've only ever seen them sold once in over a decade of fishkeeping). My recommendation for relying on bottom feeders to clean your gravel and mix up your substrate is this: don't. I've got two tanks with almost only catfish I still have to do just as much maintenance as the next fishkeeper.

Haha, you saw the zebra plec? Let me hit you with a fun fact: they cost at least $100 each nowadays; I haven't been paying attention to the prices since it's really just not worth it. Brazil has banned the export of zebra plecs from their waters for the time being, making the supply stop while the demand for them is as high as ever. I would not recommend any of these ornamental plecos because of their expense.

Barbel erosion happens often to corys that are kept in less-than-great conditions OR if their substrate is sharp and will cut their barbels. Thus, you want to make sure to keep your substrate clean, which is ironic because you think that the bottom feeders will clean them for you. But as I mentioned before, you can't rely on bottom feeders to clean the tank for you. Otherwise, my bottom-feeder only tanks would be such a breeze to take care of, haha.

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The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian.

ERRR
the AFP planted a probe in my eyeballs
That is all


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