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Hi Country,
I have not seen mention of your cloudy water problem
other than your comment about frustration over it.

In my experience, the cloudiness is caused, initially,
by left over dust & dirt in the gravel. This usually
dissipates over a few hours to a couple of days as
the dirt settles or is filtered out of the water column.

If it occurs a few days/weeks after a new tank is set up
then it is usually just a bacteria bloom and is a stage
in the establishment of the Nitrogen Cycle and maturation
of the tank. I've found that its duration depended upon
several factors, the bio-load, and the size of the tank.
It's going to become a factor in a 10G tank alot faster
than it will in your 240G tank. Logically, there is more
water, and probably, the bio-load is less in your tank
than it is in the 10G tank. In essence it will take longer
to resolve itself in your tank as the bacteria has to
become more "dense" or more populous before it converts
to populations within the gravel, filter, and the other
surfaces within the tank.

You can wage war with the use of a UV filter system, a
diatom filter, or water changes, but I think that will also
prolong the length of time to establish the Nitrogen Cycle
and for the tank to mature.

In case you have not checked here are some sites about
the white cloudy water in a freshwater aquarium:

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/waterconditions/a/cloudywater.htm

http://www.elmersaquarium.com/c107problemchart.htm

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/cloudywt.htm

http://fish.dirtylittle.com/cloudy.html

I'm sure you can see the common thread between these
links. Its bacteria, its common in new tanks, and can
be resolved.

HTH
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Frank, Thanks for the links .
I've read a few different ones to those but they all say the same .
I've kept the Bioload low and the feeding sparse but other than that I'm letting the tank take its course in settling in .
I also haven't done too much about the emersed growth plant die back which will also be contributing to the problem .
I deliberately want to watch and learn from the process . So whilst I know that the bacteria bloom is going to go away , it's still frustrating
Of course some of it is self inflicted which means I'll know better next time .

The only anomaly is I have very high phosphate level due to using Seachems Neutral Regulator , which I now realise was a mistake ( even Seachem don't recommend it for a planted tanks) .
I won't react though, I'll just let the water changes take care of it over time . Of course I've stopped using it .
However I'm still using carbon in my Canister which I realise also leaches phosphate into the water column . Oh well old habits die hard
Will probably give that some thought when I do my first cleaning of the canister in a couple of months.

Thanks for your comments and help as always .

Garry

Matty , Thanks for that info . I'll change my labels for the plants in future . Thanks for your comments
Fishmonster , Thanks for the comments and the interest . I love the idea of logs to retain good ideas as well as see where we all go wrong .
We can all learn . Everyone has something to contribute .

Garry

Garry

Wish i had more to add to your log but everyone has mentioned everything. Keep at it and thanks for all your help with mine.

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Garry,

Like the others say, looking pretty good there

I tried to keep up with your entries over the last two weeks, but that is not an easy task

Very few comments:

- In general, you know where I stand with the "splitting" of the tank into two distinct designs.
- You mention that you hope the kissers will not get too large, but aren't they supposed to be over 10 inches in just a few years?
- What is that talk of carbon in the filter leaches P? Never heard of that. Might be true though, but I would like to know where that came from.

That's it for now,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks , Fishmonster for stoping by. Only to happy to help with my limited knowledge .

In general, you know where I stand with the "splitting" of the tank into two distinct designs.

Ingo , great to hear from you , Thanks for reminding me about the scape no doubt you will keep doing so .
Thats ok I love peoples opinions that are different to mine , it keeps me on my toes

You mention that you hope the kissers will not get too large, but aren't they supposed to be over 10 inches in just a few years?

Yes Kissers can get very big , they are already about 5in now . They are 2years old and IME most fish like humans don't grow much more after a certain age. I think they may be reaching that age . We will see if they grow any more .

What is that talk of carbon in the filter leaches P? Never heard of that. Might be true though, but I would like to know where that came from

Your last point got me searching my saved links to try and point you to where I read this . I think that I've seen it a few times on different sites but I can't find one quickly .
I will keep looking and let you know when I find one .

As always thanks for your comments and insights .
Garry

Week 4 Update .

This week has seen very few changes to the tank .
I've added some new rocks to the river as mentioned last week . Not sure I'm overly happy with them where they are .
May move them around in the coming weeks . any suggestions / opinions would be welcome .

I also thought I would change style this week and put my comments with the photos instead of up front to see if that improves the flow of the log .
Let me know your thoughts .

This week it would be interesting to look back to how the tank started out and compare to where it is today .
The first shot is therefore of the tank on setup day .



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Now a shot of the Full Tank as of this week . A few things to note .
1. New fast growing plants were added to the jungle side
( its not all growth )
2. Airstones were turned off on the advice recieved here.
3. Sponge filter was moved from the centre.
4. New rocks in the River .

However you can see that there is very good growth in all plant groups across the tank .

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The White water bacteria bloom continues even after another Water change. There was a slight improvement but this did not seem to last .
On advice from Frank in another thread I bucket changed the water out to get the levels right . Have now marked the tank with a piece of tape. ( no more buckets Yeah )
I did a 300 ltr (30%) change this week and will probably do that again next week .
I'm also planning to do some trimming of the growth of the Wisteria as well as getting rid of some of the decaying leaf matter that could be contributing to the problem .
The white water from the end of the tank .

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Next the right or jungle side . You can see the tremendous growth of the Wisteria , the Flower spikes of the Amazons , as well as the Giant Hygro nearly reaching the surface .

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The left side , which shows the Tennulus and the Hairgrass doing very well . The Ludwigia and the Hygro at the back also with plenty of growth.

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A shot looking up the River , which shows the new rocks as well as the plants encroaching over the river .
Part of the original plan was to get plants overhanging the river .
I also planted the Ludwigia Ovalis and the Giant Hygro in the river to narrow it down.
I will see how this develops but I think i want it to look a bit like a tunnel .

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Country,
Tank looks good as well as the growth. I'm impressed that the hairgrass is growing well, although I'm not sure how it will do with the Tennulus in and around it.

The white cloudy water is usually caused by a biofilter being insufficient to deal with what's in the tank. You've added some pretty big waste producers pretty quickly which also require a good amount of food. All of this results in a larger organic load that the "immature" biofilter is unable to deal with at this point. Also playing around with the layout,etc stirs more organics into the water column. On a big tank like this especially if your going to be re-scaping it, etc a UV would really be your best friend, trust me on this. Your water will never be cloudy again and you could play around with the layout and not worry as much.

My Scapes

A couple of more Detailed shots of some of the Plants .
Firstly the Ludwigia / Annubia B. group .
The Ludwigia has show very solid growth over the month , so that the Annubias had to moved forward .
The Annubias appear to have got their roots well anchored in the substrate .



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Hi Country,
Actually I tend to agree with the dislike of two separate
landscapes in the same tank, but with yours, I think the
overall "look" is going to be great as the tank and plants
mature. I like the idea of the "jungle" on the right
giving way to the sides of the river and then the "flood
plain" on the left with the lower height plants. As it
is filling in (during the evolution of the pictures) it
is looking nice.

My only comment is that I'd remove the three rocks standing
up in the middle of the "river" in the front of the tank.
There is no cliff face for them to have fallen into
the river from. If you really want to keep them,
I'd suggest burying them in the white gravel on their
long side down so that only a flat surface, maybe a 1/4
to 1/2 inch of the rocks are sticking up out of
the river. Right now the rocks are blockading the
river and obstructing the view.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Now a close up of the Tennulus and Hairgrass .
I'm also very happy about the growth Jeff , they have both exceeded my expectations .
Thanks for that advice on the UV filter to combat the white water, I've been thinking about it .
I'll do some more research .
One question I have is can they be used independantly or do they have to be put on the canister filter line?

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Hi Country,
You can place the UV light in the OUTPUT of the canister
filter, or you can use them as a separate unit with its
own pump. It's your choice. Just run it 24/7,365 and
remember to replace the UV bulb every 6 months. You must
be able to clean the inside of the UV chamber at least
monthly and during that cleaning process DO NOT touch the
bulb with your bare fingers. The body oils will stick to
the bulb, concentrate the heat, and the glass will soften
and bulge making it impossible to remove the bulb later on.

If you use the UV system as a separate unit with its own
pump, you must prefilter the water going into the UV
system or else the glass sleeve through which the water
flows will become cloated with detritus and that will ruin
the efficence of the filter.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Now a shot of the Pennywort area of the tank . I have some major concerns over this area with shading from the Wisteria . This is the area where I've already done a minor trim and will be doing some more trimmimg in the next week .
You can also see that the Ctertopsis and the Water sprite are doing very well .

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Frank, Thanks for the advice on the UV .
I think I agree with you on the rocks in the river , nice idea BTW to bury them .
Not a lot of substrate to play with but I'll play a bit I think .
The idea was to try to make it look like a delta which fits your idea .
Thanks
Last shot of the plants for this week shows the Crypts at the base of the Driftwood .
I was a bit concerned that they were melting away , but as you can see whilst they are still small they are coming back nicely.
You can also see the Tennulus spreading to this area which I will need to address .
As well if you look closely you can see some of the green spot algae on the rocks .
I'm still not overly concerned about the algae I have in the tank . The SAE's and Ottos seem to be keeping it under control .

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Just a couple of shots of the fishies to finish this week .
Firstly more sad news , we lost another Otto .
We've now lost 4 but still have 10 left . I counted 9 together at the water change .

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A shot of the SAE's and some Ottos swimming together.

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Lastly a shot of the Gold Gourami peeking out from his favorite spot near the Driftwood .
Sorry about the standard of the photo's this week the cloudy water has made taking photo's a bit difficult .

The plan for this week is to do some trimming of the plants of the Jungle side as well as work on the rocks in the river .
Will still hold off adding any more fish especially in light of Tetras comments on the Biofilter which I happen to agree with .

Not sure about doing the log this way ( comments with photos ) . Seems a little disjointed to me . Let me know what you think ?

Thanks to everyone for the comments and ideas and keep them coming .

Enjoy
Garry

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Country,
It's much easier to run the UV inline on the output side of your cansister as opposed to setting it up with it's own powerhead. Less equipment the better. There is no harm running it 24/7 or you can put it on a timer or separate valve. I only clean mine twice a year, but that would probably depend on how dirty your tank is.

My Scapes

Garry,

The tank looks amazing! Plants look great. That is quite a jungle of wisteria you have there. Its not dying off underneath? Hows the baby molly hitchhiker doing?
I hope you can find a solution to your murky water.
All plants look great!

wow, such a lot of growth. The comparison with the earlier shot really shows how it's coming along. Agree with Frank about moving the rocks - perhaps flattening them, but if not, finding another spot for them altogether.

I tried the idea of running a UV from a separate pump & went off the idea completely. With a cannister, you don't need to put a pump in the tank - also prefiltering it was difficult. Go with the cannister, IMO.

I'm enjoying all your pics and hope you keep them up. /:'

Cheers
TW

Garry,

Growth looks good, here are a few comments:

- White cloud vs. green cloud. I have a different opinion on the white cloud than tetratech(darn hobby where everybody has a different point, LOL). I think that one has a 50/50 chance of having a white bacterial bloom when setting up a tank, and that white could once maxed out will go away within a week on its own simply because the food for this kind of bacteria is gone, it ate itself to death. Green water, aka algae, is different and tetratech knows how to deal with it first hand, aka UV.

- That filter on the left looks disturbing to the plants below. It seems as they have been cut to grow around them.

- The rocks in the river are too strong and tall. If you want to have them there then I would suggest to lay them flat and to even partially bury them. Right now they block the view to the depth of the river.

Enough for now,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Jeff & Robyn for the advice on the UV . I've decided to get it for both tanks . Now just have to decide which type , how many watts , flow rate , zig zag . etc etc .
The different types are mind boggling .
Just one question which I can't seem to get an answer for : How many watts should I get . I see Jeff has a 9w on his 72 g. Robyn was going for 18 to 25w .
Is there a rule or a guideline .
The ratings appear to be all over the place .

Ingo ,Thanks for the info on white water , its been going for 3 weeks now , occasionally I think its got a green tinge but I convince myself its the reflection from the plants .
When I look at the water in a glass it looks clear to white .
I've read a couple of threads that suggest exactly what you said and also say that decaying plant matter will contribute to prolonging the bacteria 's life .
I've got a fair bit of that from the emersed growth stuff dying off.

So what am I going to do I hear you say . Well I'm going to trim up all the decaying leaves and get a UV .

The rocks in the river are too strong and tall.

I agree , they are going tomorrow.

That filter on the left looks disturbing to the plants below. It seems as they have been cut to grow around them.

They are actually growing that way naturally . I only moved the filter there recently . I haven't trimmed them at all .
I hope they will grow to hide the filter . Having said that they may not stay there forever , who knows
Thanks again for your thoughts .

Ryan , The hithchiker , Miss Molly, is going from strength to strength and has doubled in size
Yes there is some die back at the bottom of the Wisteria . I expected it because I have it planted so thickly .
Will see how it goes after I trim tomorrow .
Thanks for stopping by.

Thanks again to eveyone for the interest and help .
Much appreciated

Garry

Garry:

Re the white water. This qustion might sound silly but I have a reason to ask: are you sure that you are dosing sufficient amounts of water conditioner when you are doing your water changes? I have no idea if you use well water, water that is chlorinated or contains chloramines, though.

catdancer, Mate I use Town Water , and I dose Prime for the whole tank volume .
I'm very cautious when it comes to these things .
I test my water every 2 days and have tested the tap water a few times in the last week or so .
Nothing out of the ordinary .
As expected in a heavily planted tank there are no signs of a cycle , and Nitrates are at 5ppm a couple of times ( I am dosing Seachem Nitrogen twice a week )but mostly at 0 .
So mostly I think its a harmless Bacteria bloom which is being extended by decaying plant matter .

You said you had a reason for asking

Garry

You said you had a reason for asking

Oh yes! here it goes: when I performed water changes (30 - 40%) on my 72 G the water turned extremely cloudy over night. Always and the tank was well established. Sometimes so bad that the fish were gasping for air. I noticed the smell of cheap window cleaner and performed a test for NH3 and bingo! My fish were in acute distress. More water changes and it got worse. Finally I took tap water and tested for NH3 - -negative. I added the so-called tap water condtioner I was using ("removes chlorine and chloramines to make water safe for your fish" and performed the test again: NH3!

My LFS was in shock, they use a different brand which I am using ever since w/o any problems. On Bob Fenner's wet web media web site I found finally also a comment from one of the advisors: not all conditioners do really remove chloramines entirely, he did not say which ones for liability but hinted that conditioners containing pyrollidones will do the job for sure.

NH3 + HOCL gives NH2CL (Chloramine) + H2O. you can imagine what happened in my tank ...

After inquiring at city water works I learned that they dose high levels of chloramine after a nasty bacteria outbreak they had experienced in the past which had which killed several people.

I was thinking that small amounts of ammonia together with decaying plant matter might shift the bacterial balance in your tank resulting in cloudy water. Trace levels required to do this can be quite small and not picked up by the typically available kits.

Just my thoughts!

Thanks Jeff & Robyn for the advice on the UV . I've decided to get it for both tanks . Now just have to decide which type , how many watts , flow rate , zig zag . etc etc. Just one question which I can't seem to get an answer for : How many watts should I get. I see Jeff has a 9w on his 72g. Robyn was going for 18 to 25w

Hi Gary, the research I've done here in Aus (mainly reading other Aussie hobbyist threads on the subject of UV's) it seems that lower watt is for algae kill, higher watts is for parasite kill. I want it for parasite kill (apistos & discus). The most important thing is to make sure the max flow rate for UV is not exceeded by flow rate of filter you attach it to. Water contact time against UV tube is important & if water passes through too quickly, then nothing is killed & your money is wasted. As UV's are expensive in AUS, you don't want that. The twisty type are good, because this means that water passes over a longer UV light source than it would if the light was just straight up & down. I think many of them are twisty. As mentioned, quality UV's in Aus aren't cheap. I have a Du Barry 11W with elecontric ballast $359.95 (purchased before I knew the high watt = parasite kill) & have just purchased 2 X Pentair Aqustep 25W (electronic ballast) for around same price on special - they're now back to usual price $429. These are on-line prices too. Ben has some good prices, but didn't have these brands. I have heard good things about Pondmaster and they're cheaper (36W for around $200). Ben has a 36W on introductory special for under $200, but I don't know the brand. I had a thread here asking if FP members had experience with the brand, but no response, so I got scared & didn't buy it. As you know though, I like dealing with Ben so in retrospect, I'm sure it would have been ok. As for a lot of the other cheaper ones here, the threads I've read all point to there being reasons for them being cheaper (eg cheap plastic parts that break & leak easily).

If you're looking at it for algae, then lower watt should do the trick. IMO matching UV & filter flow rate is the most important thing. Each UV unit will advise what the max flow rate is for effective kill rate. As you have a really good filter (Fluval FX5 - 536 g per hour)that in it itself may force you to go for a higher watt UV unit, as I found the higher the watt, the higher flow rate it can handle. Just my opinions, but I hope they help.

Cheers
TW

beautiful tank

Folks , Thanks so much for all the advice on UV's , Especially Robyn.

I went out today and got a 36 w Boyu at at really good price from my local guy .
Gives me the peace of mind because they will fix it if I have a problem.
So will install today .

Yesterday I did a major trim and rearranged some of the rocks .
Really like the result .
Photos later in the week with hopefully clear water .

Garry

Catdancer , welllll, interesting but I think I'm ok .
Always good to have others experiences to use and learn from though .
Thanks for that .

antman,
Thanks for stopping by .

Garry

Week 5 Update

This week has seen lots of changes in the tank . As mentioned in the previous posts I picked up a UV steriliser
as suggested by Tetratech and others and this has made a huge difference to the water quality .
It took about 3 days to clear the water .
It's not what I would call perfect yet , but there is no longer a bacteria bloom problem ( white or green ) .
Unfortunatley the Fluval does not lend itself to plumbing a UV into its outline .
Mostly thats due to the size of my cabinet and how I've positioned it.
So I had to use my sponge as the pump for the UV .
This has lead to some ugly equipment in the far left back of the tank which I'm not very happy with .
This will only be temporary until I can find a better solution .

Next I did a major trim of the Wisteria or jungle side of the tank and also removed a lot of decaying leaves
on the Chain swords( emersed growth ) and some of the worst affected leaves on the Amazons .
I also chopped of the baby chains that were floating and planted them in the 60 g .

I removed all but one of the rocks in the front of the river . I buried this one to give it a low profile .
I moved one of the rocks to the other rock group that has been covered by the Wisteria growth up until the trim .

Lastly I moved in some new residents in the form of my Angel group and 1 of my Sharks.
Only did this yeasterday well after the water had cleared .

Growth in the tank has continued with the hairgrass continuing to spread , the chains are spreading as well with runners criscrossing each other .
The Java fern and both lots of Hygro's are doing very well with the 2 Giant Hygro reaching the surface and the other 3 catching up quickly .
The Ludwiga both Ovals and Narrow leaf seem to be doing ok , both show some colour
although from my reading they may be lacking something as they should be showing more red I think ???
The Crypts seem to continue to do well but no startling growth .
The Amazon swords which I was most concerned about seem to be doing very well with lots of new leaves at the base and many spikes reaching for the surface .
On these spikes some babys have developed . I cut of one the spikes and planted in the 60g to see if they would grow .
Does anyone know what you are supposed to do with these as I have some fairly large ones now ??????

There continues to be some green spot algae in the tank and there was quite a bit on the glass this week .
I cleaned the glass on three sides but have left the rest for the Otto's & SAE's to handle .
I think I've noticed some BBA as well , but again the SAE's appear to be taking care of it .

All of which means I still probably haven't quite got the ferts right .I will be looking at that over the next couple of weeks.
I picked up Flourish Trace this week and have added that to my regime .Will see if that also makes a difference .

I didn't plan to make this many changes to the tank in one week ,just got a bit carried away I think
Anyway the plan for this week is stability

On to the photos ,Firstly the full tank as of last week before the trim .


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Full Tank this week .

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The Right side showing the major Trim

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The pennywort area with the new rock.

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The Amazon swords with lots of spikes

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Next the Giant Hygro reaching the surface

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Baby Amazons on the spikes

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A shot looking up the river past the driftwood .

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A shot of the Java Fern on the driftwood

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I also moved 3 plants that were not doing very well in my 60g to see if they would do better here .
Planted them in the river next to the driftwood . No idea what they are called .
Heres a shot , anyone know what they are ?

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Last Plant shot for this week is the Hairgrass spreading

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Couple of shots of the new residents inspecting their new abode . Seem to be enjoying all the room .
First the Angels

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The Albino Redfin

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An SAE conference called to discuss the algae problem on the rocks

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Last shot for this update is of our Hithchiker " Miss Molly " who has at least trippled in size in the last couple of weeks .

Thanks again to everyone for the suggestions and comment .

Appreciate all of those who have taken the time to stop by and help .

Enjoy
Garry

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Great shots Gary. Thanks looks is looking really good. Never seen an Albino Redfin before - he looks great.

Cheers
TW

I think it looks great after the trim and i guess the UV sterelizer is working.
Also, you have some beautiful angels, and I also have never seen an albino redfin.
The spikes serve as a stalk for the flowers and also small plantlests grow off of it. I would wait until they have 6-8 leaves and some roots before removing them. The plants in the rver look like some kind of sword.

-Vincent

Garry,

Yup looking nice, seems like the cloud is gone, 3 days is for sure fast to clear such a huge tank.

Here are some thoughts:

- When trimming your right side, how did the lower parts look like? Where they decaying or still ok? And how did you trim it, by cutting off tops and disposing of them or by disposing of the old bottoms? I probably would have done the prior rather than the latter, but with such fast growers it does not really matter I think.

- Removing and burying the remaining rock was a good move.

- Nice fishies in there by now (not little fish, so not my style ), is it stocked now?

- I would trim the giant hygro soon, about two thirds down, and keeping the lower parts in there while adding the trimmings next to it.

- The Ludwigia would probably need loads of light (and probably quite some iron) to be really red, your color seems pretty much in line for what I would expect in this tank.

- Crypts need quite a while to settle, but once done they can grow rather fast.

- Baby swords can be cut of the spikes and then be replanted in the substrate, as long as they have developed sufficient roots already. You did the right thing.

- Adjustments to changes in ferts are showing themselves mostly very slowly, only extreme changes show themselves fast and most often for the worse. Look at your fast growers for changes first.

And that is it for now, again, looking nice, keep it up,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Awesome, awesome Garry!

I admire the spikes on the swords. How many angels did you get and how big are they already?

Are your Angels new additions, or did they transfer across from your other tank?

I must say I'm glad we have another good photographer on the forums now, as I enjoy your pics. Though I've been at this planted tank caper for over 12mths now, don't think I'll ever feel knowledgeable enough to say much about planting choices other than "how pretty" - which is true, but probably gets very boring & doesn't help much. I do enjoy your detail though. My camera can't capture movement of fish, nor cope with close ups very well. Moving objects are a blur (lucky discus move slow & apistos jerky style allows me to capture them) but even closeups of still objects (eg plants) don't come out well.

Keep up the photos

Cheers
TW

Unfortunatley the Fluval does not lend itself to plumbing a UV into its outline .

Not sure I follow. Why can't you just cut the output tubing and place the UV inbetween, but than again I'm not familiar with the UV you have.

Things look good with the tank, although I think the Chain swords are going to completely overun your hairgrass.


My Scapes

Never seen an Albino Redfin before - he looks great.

Thanks Robyn & Vincent for you comments . I've had the Albino and my other sharks for 2 years .
They are quite common in the LFS around here .He is a beauty and very tame as well as good tempered .
He's really enjoying being away from the other Sharks who were always bullying him .

Vincent , thanks for your advice on the Amazons , I've got a couple of babys that are close to what you describe .
I'll give them a little longer then plant .

Robyn , wish I could accept the compliment on the photography , but I fear I have a long way to go yet .
The camera is the wifes( she's the expert in photography ) and its a Canon EOS 350D Digital SLR which helps a lot .
It has settings for taking fast action shots etc as well as adjusting White balance and depth of field .
I've just learned a bit more about Jpeg files and compression ratio's which should help me get better more consistent results in the future .

Catdancer , The Angels are from my over crowded 60g and were in the plan for this tank from the start .
They are about 2 years old and hopefully fully grown at about 4-5inches each .

Tetra , well the fluval is a huge piece of gear and it does not give me a lot of room to bend pipes underneath the top of the cabinet if that makes sense .
The pipe is also a lot fatter than other filter pipe so I have to get some attachments to fix it in place . I've not given up on doing it .
I did it on my other tank with the Eheim and its working a treat .

I think the Chain swords are going to completely overun your hairgrass.

You've warned me about the Chains overpowering the Hairgrass before and I've been watching them closely .
I'll not let it happen believe me . If it looks like thats going to occur one or the other will end up in the redo of the 60g .

Thanks everone for your comments , compliments and help .
Much appreciated .

Garry

Ingo , Thanks for your help once again .
You always give me so much to think about

- When trimming your right side, how did the lower parts look like? Where they decaying or still ok?

The Wisteria ( which was the major trim plant ) was mainly stalks down below . I tried to thin out the top of that area that you pointed out a few weeks ago looked very dark, to encourage some regrowth . Will see how it goes . The amazons down below were fine lots of new growth .

And how did you trim it, by cutting off tops and disposing of them or by disposing of the old bottoms?

I trimmed the top of the Wisteria and disposed of it . I thought about doing it the other way but it seemed a lot of work and substrate disturbance for a weed that in the long run will not be in the tank .

Removing and burying the remaining rock was a good move.

Thanks for that , I was never happy with the original addition and am pretty pleased with the result now .

Nice fishies in there by now (not little fish, so not my style ), is it stocked now?

Yes I know its not your style , but it is mine . I don't subscribe to the empty tank look , "Vive le Difference" my friend . And no it's not stocked yet, there is many more to come .

- I would trim the giant hygro soon, about two thirds down, and keeping the lower parts in there while adding the trimmings next to it.

Thats very interesting , why do you say that ? I've no problem doing it , just interested in the rationale ?

The Ludwigia would probably need loads of light (and probably quite some iron) to be really red, your color seems pretty much in line for what I would expect in this tank.

Thats reassuring , I am dosing Seachems Iron twice a week , as well as Flourish and Flourish Traces . I assume by the light you mean my 2.4 WPG V over 3 wpg if I turned on the other light .
I may do that in the future if I decide to add C02.

- Crypts need quite a while to settle, but once done they can grow rather fast

Thanks for that ,when I look back at the photos of when I put them in , there has been a lot of dieback and melting and they were very small to start with . They seem to be coming back ok now .

Adjustments to changes in ferts are showing themselves mostly very slowly, only extreme changes show themselves fast and most often for the worse. Look at your fast growers for changes first.

Thanks for that advice , I'm very much trying to follow that and make changes slowly .
As you can tell from this week I sometimes get carried away
But this is one area where I've listened to all the advice and attempted to keep it very stable .
I'm not really that worried by the algae I have in the tank , its really quite minor .
I do need some food for all the Algae eaters after all

Thanks again Ingo for all you help and advice .
Very much appreciated .

Garry

Garry,

Some info:

"I would trim the giant hygro soon, about two thirds down, and keeping the lower parts in there while adding the trimmings next to it."
Why, you ask, would I do that. Well, Once they reach the surface they got nowhere to go and as such don't do you any good with regards to eating up more and more of the nutrients that are available to algae. As such, I would try to increase the group. If you trim so that only the lower third will remain then you cannot see that short piece from the front anymore, but it would most likely create two or more new shoots from it, giving it a bushy appearance (aka full without too many stems in the substrate). the trimmed tops I would add just to increase the group, nutrient sucking at this stage is important.

You say "I assume by the light you mean my 2.4 WPG V over 3 wpg if I turned on the other light ."
Well, not quite what I meant, but I have no personal experience with it. I know a guy with the reddest plants I have seen in a tank (at least at some point, as this tank no longer exists). That was a 125G, so not a small tank. He ran - hold on tight - about 6wpg on it

Hope this explains,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Folks ,2 of our Angels have decided they like the conditions in their new home and have spawned .
They chose the Sponge filter at the left hand end of the tank .
We woke this morning to a bunch of eggs on the filter and the Male making runs up and down presumably fertilising the eggs .
They are being good parents so far and protecting that end of the tank .
Quite facinating to watch the behaviour , the female goes over to inspect the eggs after each time the Male makes a run .
We are facinated to see if we get any hatchings . Will get a fry trap just in case .
Couple of shots , firstly the Male making a run .


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The Female inspecting the eggs after the Male has finished a run .
Will keep you posted .
Garry

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breeding fish is always a good sign, and great pictures. The two types will make an interseting pattern if you get fry.

-Vincent

Congratulations Garry!

this is very exciting, I hope you will have hatchlings

Week 6 Update

This week I have stayed out of the tank except for the water change (as promised)
I took Ingo's advice and trimmed & replanted 2 Giant Hygro stems that had reached the surface .
I will have to do the same again this week as the other 3 stems have now reached as well .
The Hairgrass is showing some die off in the centre of the plants , however it continues to spread,even underneath the Tennulus.
It has also sent out what appear to be seeds from a number of plants .
The Water Sprite has taken off this week and will require a trim very shortly .
The Wisteria has sent out a lot of different shaped leaves from the area that has been trimmed , which I've seen reported in other peoples logs .

On the fish front , no new additions this week and the only major interest was from the Angels .
The Breeders were not succesfull in getting any of their brood to wriggler stage . It appears they have a lot to learn .
They certainly defended the area very well however , even when I tried to get a couple of eggs .
I've never been bitten by one of my fish before . Quite an experience .

Thats it for this week , the plan for next week is to trim a few more plants and to add a few more fish .

On to the photos , firstly the tank as it was last week

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Full Tank this Week

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The Right Side of the tank , which shows Giant Hygro reaching the surface again , and the other Hygro in the centre reaching as well .

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Left side

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Down the river under the driftwood

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The Water Sprite , also showing the Pennywort growing well now its not shaded .

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The Hairgrass spreading under the Tennulus

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The Hairgrass sending off seeds ?? I think .

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Thats it for the plants this week . A couple of fish shots to finish . First one of the Gold Angels .

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And of course one of "Miss Molly" who continues to grow very fast . Best shot yet .

Thanks again for all your contributions and Help.

Garry

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Those "hairgrass seeds" are actually weed. They will overtake the tank if you arent careful.
I noticed some in one of my tanks a couple of months ago and now pull out handfuls on a weekly basis.
It is a pain because it anchors itself and breaks apart very easily.

Get rid of it quickly.

Good luck

Hi Country,
My only comment is that it's time to "get rid" of that
apparatus in the background. Some stem plants or something
that will grow to hide that ugly stuff...

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

You've had a lot of growth this week and your Angels (even if they do need more practice) have signalled their approval by laying. Better luck next time.

Cheers
TW

Dangerous Dave , Interesting . Do you mean that the Hairgrass grew like a weed ? I'm not sure that would be a problem
Can you expand a bit ?

Frank , yes I know . Its a temporary solution so I suppose you are right I should put up a screen of temporary stems
untill I can get time to fix up the UV to the cannister.
Thanks for reminding me .

Thanks Robyn, Hopefully they will keep their enthusism untill I get my breeding tanks set up next year

Unlike activated carbon, Purigen does not leach out phosphate or remove trace elements

Ingo , One for you . You asked where I saw the comments on Carbon leaching P . Above is a comment from the Seachem site .
I've also seen it on several other forums which I can't seem to locate now .
I've still got high P readings (+10ppm)even after not using Neutral regulator for 6 weeks. Only used at set up, not since and I do have carbon in the Cannister.
May be right ?
I'm not doing anything out of the ordinary to reduce the P levels . Just going to wait it out .
I'm not using any buffers at all at the moment and interestingly my KH is remaining fairly stable around 4 or 5
and the PH has reduced slightly from 7.2 to 7.0 over the 6 weeks .
I'm not drawing any conclusions as yet , just observations .

Garry

What I am saying is that what you have a photo of is not hairgrass seed. It is just a weed that has hooked itself on to your hairgrass.
In fact, it will hook itself on any plant and grow in clumps.
I would get rid of it ASAP before it gets right through your tank.
Be careful when you pull it out as it will break apart easily.

Garry,

DangerousDave is right. I have the same myerious growth in one of my tanks and there is absolutely no hairgrass in it! The plant is very resistant to abusive treatment like pulling out and it prospers there for several months now (happily growing ...). No idea where it came from

I also used to have this stuff in my tank. At one point I had a link that told me what it was. If I remember right it was a type of algae.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks Guys , I will search & destroy .

Garry

Garry,

I did spend a little (that I did not really have) on the Seachem website and searched for the quote above with regards to the Phosphate leaching. I could not find it, please link to the page directly. I checked the Purigen product page and it's FAQ page, not a word about activated carbon leaching P (but you quoted it so it must be there somewhere). I found some reference on the Matrix Carbon product page, in detail:

"While all carbons contain phosphate, regardless of false claims to the contrary, MatrixCarbon has the lowest detectable leachable phosphate content of all major carbon brands tested."

And

"Leachable Phosphate <0.00001 g/cc"

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Week 7 Update .

Not a lot of activity of the good kind this week . Unfortunatley I ran out of Pottassium this week so the Fert Schedule went slightly out of wack .
Seems to be a lack of Seachem ferts in this part of the world at the moment ( I'm sick of the word's "Back Order".)

Algae growth ,both Green and Black is starting to get to be more than I would like .
Still haven't made any changes to lighting or Ferts to address it .
My Phospate level is still too high which could be the problem ,I haven't added any phosphate to the tank.
It appears to be lightening off by the colour of the test solutions .
I know these things are hardly very accurate, but I'm reluctant to add more phosphate when the test tells me that the level is +10ppm.
The Fert Schedule is Excel everyday, N, P, K twice a week , Flourish twice a week , Iron 3 times aweek and Traces once a week.
Light is 11/ 12 Hours per day .
If anyone has any suggestions , they would be appreciated .

As far as plant growth is concerned , most the fast growers ( Giant Highgrow, Highgrow, Water Sprite )were trimmed during the week .
As you will see from the photos they look like nothing was done so the growth has been substantial again .
The Crypts are very pleasing as they all look very healthy .
The Tennulus and Hairgrass are powering ahead and I have added a whole field of Tennulus to the 60g .
The Amazons continue to put out lots of new leaves as well as spikes with babies ( Most of which I'm putting in the 60g until they get some more size ).
I've let some of the Ceratopteris Pteroides float to the surface . It has powered on both there and in the substrate.
Both Ludwigia's appear to be colouring up as the weeks go on although growth is quite slow .
The Java Fern and the Anubia's continue to be very slow as expected but the Annubia Barteri appear to be starting to put on some growth .
The Unknown plants in the river seem to be recovering as well . Older leaves are dying off but some new leaves appearing and doing well .

I cleaned the Fluval and the Sponge this week which is always a mistake . Dumb me .
The Fluval was putting out micro bubbles which was annoying me greatly .
So I pulled it apart and gave it the once over . Of course all the media was cleaned in Tank water .
I must say that the pump out function and the arrangement of the baskets made this much easier than with the Eheim on the other tank.

On the Fish front , we have 2 pairs of Angels breeding this week , none of the eggs survived for more than a day .
No fish were added and all seem very healthy .
Have not seen the BN for a week but there are plenty of places to hide .

On to the Photos , firstly the tank as of last week .

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Full Tank , this week

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The Right Side

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The Left Side

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Down the River

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On to some detail shots of the plants .
First the Annubia B.

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Amazon Baby

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The Ceratopteris Pteroides floating . The Gouramis like to hide under it .
Obviously gives them a feeling of safety from above .

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The Crypts and Unknown plants both doing well

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Giant Highgrow , some of those stems are the trimmed ones from a couple of weeks ago reaching the surface again .

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Hairgrass area showing great spread , but the centre of each plant can easily seen to be black from either Algae or die back . Its hard to tell which , only time will tell .

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Highgrow in the centre of the tank taking off again after trimming

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Ludwigia on the Left colouring up

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The Tennulus Field . I am thinking of pulling the Hairgrass out of this area as suggested by Tetra .
Its growing ok but you have to look closly to see it . Might move it to another spot .
Will be a difficult job as it has spread quite a lot in spite of the tennulus over growing it .

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The Water Sprite , growing again after trimming

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Close up of the Ludwigia Ovalis , showing good colour as well as some new growth

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Last Plant shot for this week showing the Pennywort getting squeesed between the Water Sprite and Wisteria . Will need to trim both again this week

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On to the Wildlife . First a couple of shots of the biggest group in the tank . Snails

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Another, showing a group working on Algae . I Hope!!!!!

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A few Fishies , firstly showing some facinating Angel Breeding behaviour .
First the Female Angel depositing eggs

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Another of the Female Angel at work

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The Male following up

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The Male in full flight protecting the breeding site

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One of the other Males who doesn't have a partner . Looks a little sad to me .??!!!!

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Gold Female from the other pair protecting the other end of the tank

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The SAE's showing off again

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An Otto working over the Unknown plant . Still have 10 out of 14 of these little fellas . They all have fat bellys!

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Last shot for this week of the Female Angel looking a little forlorn after lossing all of her second lot of eggs.

Next week will see some more trimming of the fast growers as well as moving of the Hairgrass .
I will probably introduce some more residents from the other tank .

Thanks again .

Garry

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As always, great pictures, Garry. What happened t othe second batch of eggs? Got eaten by the other inhabitants?

Garry,

Looks like your plants are filling in really well. Quite fast for not doing any CO2. Though I know you are doing Excel which I have seen help the growth factor a lot myself.

Wonderful pictures too! I think you are giving LF a run for his money!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Garry,

All seems to be ok with the tank, that is good news.

Just two quick comments:

- Your fish shots are really nice, in particular the one with the Oto seems very 3 dimensional, great. Also, having caught the Angels while laying eggs is very special (to me, at least).

- Somehow I am a little uncertain about the plant you call Pennywort. Mine for sure looks different, larger leaves and growing up towards the surface much faster. Pennywort is in the family of Hydrocotyle and I have seen it labeled as Hydrocotyle ranunculoides and Hydrocotyle leucocephyla. Your plant though seems to me more like some form of Bacopa, or am I looking at the wrong plant?

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

What happened t othe second batch of eggs? Got eaten by the other inhabitants?

Cat ,Just dissappeared overnight . Not sure that the others could get near the way both pairs were defending their areas . So it may have been the parents . Who knows ?

Wonderful pictures too! I think you are giving LF a run for his money!

Thanks Wings , not sure I'll ever be in that class.

Somehow I am a little uncertain about the plant you call Pennywort,Your plant though seems to me more like some form of Bacopa, or am I looking at the wrong plant?

Ingo , you are looking at the right plant and you could be right . It's not the plant I ordered (substituted by the plant supplier) but it came labeled as "Green Pennywort"
That was one of the reasons I asked about the plants at the back corner of your tank as your Pennywort seemed to have much bigger leaves than mine .
LFS's around here are lucky to know if they are aquatic plants let alone the name ??????
When I look on line some Pennyworts and Bacopa look very similar ,Not sure myself ????

Thanks everyone for the compliments on the photo's .
We seem to have got the white balance & exposure pretty right now .
Just going to try to improve the depth of field with some tips Cassielia gave the other night .

Enjoy
Garry

Garry

Im in shock, that is a beautiful tank you have there. I cant believe how far it has come along. I hope that my 35 gallon will get looking like that at some point. Wow again.

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

beautiful photos mate- especially the angels. i love the river!

As always, enjoyed the pics. Agree with Ingo, the parents laying eggs is a special shot indeed.

Better luck next time wiht survivors.

Cheers
TW

Thanks folks for the nice comments .
Week 8 Update
This week as per my comments last week , I trimmed the Water Sprite , Wisteria &
Hygro quite hard. I also pulled most of the hairgrass out from under the Tennulus .
This left me the problem of where to put it .
I decided to let the Ceratopteris Pteroides just exist as a floater and replaced it in
the substrate at the front left with the hairgrass .
I placed some of the trimmed Giant Hygro Stems at the rear under the equipment .
All of the other plants continue to perform as expected except for the Amazons
whose new leaves are not getting the same height as the original leaves which are
all showing signs of rotting away .
I will probably trim a lot of the taller leaves in the next week or two.

As far as the Algae is concerned , there has been quite a lot of green spot
which I have mostly wiped off the glass and a little black algae on some of the plants .
Nothing that I'm overly concerned about at this stage .It does not seem to be growing
at an increased rate .I'm still interested in adjusting my Fert Schedule
( I posted it last week)if anyone has any ideas on anything that I haven't got quite right .


As I said last week, I introduced some new residents this week , most transfered from
the 60g .They are 2 Rainbows , 3 Golden Barbs and 2 Sharks . I also happened on
some Dwarf Loaches at one of my LFS's and I couldn't resist . They are such cute little guys .

The only sad news is we lost another Otto and still have not seen the BN ,he maybe gone as well .

On to the photos , the Full Tank as of last week .

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Full Tank this week

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Some detail shots of the plants , Firstly the Annubia Barteri which has some new leaves and looks to be coming on nicely .
But you can see some black algae .

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One of the Annubias on at the base of the Driftwood , also showing some black algae .

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THe Chain Sword field which looks pretty disturbed , the unavoidable result of removing the Hairgrass.

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Giant Hygro Stems planted to hide the Equipment for the time being

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The Giant Hygro reaching the surface again , I swear this stuff grows in the dark

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The New Hairgrass Area

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The Trimmed Wisteria

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The Water Sprite trimmed and showing the Bacopia/ Pennywort ?? and Ovalis growing nicely

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Just realised that I didn't post the Right and left side shots .
So here they are : Right Side

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The Left Side .
Thats it for the plants this week , next a few shots of the new residents .

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A few Fishy Photo's , The New Dwarf Loaches

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One of the Golden Barbs

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The Rainbow Shark

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The Red Tail Shark

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Lastly a couple of shots of the Rainbows , First one taken with the flash .

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This shot showing their more normal colours .

Thats it for this week , Thanks to everyone for the comments and if anyone has any ideas or suggestions please don't hesitate to let me know .

Enjoy
Garry

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Garry,

Sorry I havent visited in a while. I have been busy. But I am back to admire your log and work on my panda log

Anyway, the tank seems to be doing great, not sure what your algae problem is, seems the hairgrass is being affected the worst by it?

You have some great fish shots there! The barb shot was my favorite. Congrats on the loaches too, I want some.
What kind of camera do you have?(Lol you knwo how much I ned a new one, just seeing the kinds I like)

You arent afraid the floating plants will be shading the plants below it?

Any other plans for fish other than the ones in your 60? Or do you think they will just be a suprise like the loaches?

The chain sword seems to be proving itself a nice groundcover, I have been looking for a groundcover for my tank. Hairgrass is nice too.

Congrats on the angel spawns! Great pics of them too!

Looks great! Keep up the good work./:'

Ryan , Thanks for stopping by.

not sure what your algae problem is, seems the hairgrass is being affected the worst by it?

Yes well it appears so , not sure its a major issue as yet as that bit of Hairgrass is spreading well . We will see in time .

What kind of camera do you have?

Its a Cannon EOS 350D Digitial SLR.

You arent afraid the floating plants will be shading the plants below it?

I thought about that and did some pretty serious culling tonight actually . Will just have to keep on top of it I guess .
The Gourami's love to hide under it. So its good for them to feel safe

Any other plans for fish other than the ones in your 60?

No not at this stage . Once I get the Tigers , Big shark & George the Cockoo Cat out of the 60g I plan to redo the 60 as a small fish haven with a couple of big schools in a revised scape .
So I'll probably just let the big tank sit and settle for a few months .
We will see if I can do that though

Thanks for all your compliments , (I like the Goldy shot as well , looks like he's checking me out )

Garry