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  L# Major replant - finally happened...
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SubscribeMajor replant - finally happened...
LITTLE_FISH
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See, I like dense tenellus. I have it in my 29G and if it wouldn’t be the perfect hiding place for platie fry (just found another 4 yesterday) then I would keep it very dens. I think it looked great when I had that setup.

And no, I didn’t expect the floaters on the apons . But I haven’t had a new one in 2 weeks now and instead 2 of the apons have flowers again .
But another thing I didn’t expect was the length of my crypt retrospirals leaves, they must be 30 inches or so. And these you cannot trim halfway down, you have to remove the whole leaf. Sometime soon I will uproot the plant anyway to separate the youngsters and plant them separately .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Maybe I jumped the gun on the tenellus, but in my case it was on the ugly side, I think because the mother plants that were all grown emersed never made it back - they all had some form of dead or ugly looking growth that never came in right even after pruning. What I just thinned out, I removed all the mother plants and replanted some of the best looking babies. Maybe they'll grow in nicer now.


And good to hear about the apons and crypts! Glad theyre doing better and the weird growth has stopped.


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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NowherMan6,

Do me a favor and try to describe the ugly/dead growth on the original mother plants some more. Some of my older tennellus has browning and thinning leaves but I now can see light green new leaf growth in the center of these plants (all only in the 125).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Sure.

The old (original) plants went through a few stages. First came the die off of emmersed growth. That I picked off easy enough. But, though i picked the stems down as close to the base as possible, there still remained some small stalks poking out of the subtrate. Those began to rot, so it was a pain clealing that out. Then very few new leaves grew out from those mother plants, and what did wasn't very good looking. It was dark and kind of limp looking, and started to grow BBA on it rather quickly, which suggests to me an unhealthy plant, since it appeared nowhere else. They all sent out runners and the runners for the most part look great, no bba, bright green growth very healthy looking. It may have been a complete die off from being emmersed, though slower than the original leaf die off.

Also, when they started to grow too close together, that's when i noticed some of the runners becoming sickly looking as well. I think it's when they bunch up like that, that's when they get ugly looking. That's why i decided to prune them and thin them out. When they have a little room they look great, bunched together they start to suffer. At least that's been my experience with it.


And just on a side note, I think that says something about plant and algae growth in general. It's been my experience that, for the most part, and with some exceptions, algae doesn't just grow out of nowhere on healthy plant leaves. It grows on plants that are unhealthy looking, where growth is stalled or abnormal. In other words, the algae doesnt slow the plants down, the slow plants invite the algae. It can happen in any tank, it's just a matter of giving certain plants the room they need to not become stunted, as is the case with the tenellus, IM(brief )E.


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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NowherMan6,

Thanks for the detailed description on your tenellus problems, doesn’t sound like what I had going on in my tank in the last 2 weeks. I think mine might have been caused by my tinkering with the ferts.

About your generalization approach in the last statement:

So true, but common knowledge
You know I don’t mean it that harsh (right? ), but it is well known that slow growing plants are more e for algae than fast growers. Ergo, a leaf that is sick on a fast grower, and stops fast growth, is a slow grower, and as such more e for algae. Or is that not what you are saying?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Yes yes, i realize it's common knowledge to you Plant Gurus, but that was just an "Aha!" moment for me. Ya know what I'm talking about, you KNOW something is true but for some reason you see it happen and it just makes sense and then you actually GET it? I dunno, it made sense to me. The bottom line is, the tenellus will be weeded once a month, conditions permitting

What do you think happened with yours?


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well,

As you may recall I made this experiment with cutting my ferts really low, in particular I didn't add this Plantex stuff for 2 weeks straight. Guess that could have done it .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Nowher,
I know you said you wanted to see the media compartments of the eheim ecco so here ya go.

This is a pic right out of my manual.
These are the three models, mine is the 2235 to the right.
You could see the baskets with the different media in it.
The blue on the bottom is the coarse pad and then the biomedia (ehfisubstrate), and on the top is the fine pad and then the carbon. My setup is pretty much like this, but without the carbon. At setup eheim recommends the carbon for the first few weeks, until biofilter, etc kick in (Interesting).

Each of those baskets interlock by twisting so the whole thing could be pulled out of the cansister at once. You could see the top and media handle just above the carbon.

When I bought my 2235 it did no come with all that biomedia in the middle baskets, It basically came with 5 or so blue coarse pads, they have changed changed that and now the 2235 is sold as the 2236 with the setup you see in the pic. Big Als I know sells it as the 2236. If you buy the 2235 you just have to by the ehfisubstrate separately or use any media biomedia you want. Pretty much anything will fit in those baskets.




tetratech attached this image:


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Hey tetra, thanks for the pic, that's perfect. I ordered a 2236 the other day - I figure you were right about getting the larger one

1.) because I can always turn the flow rate down

2.) more likely than not i'll wind up getting a larger tank in the future, so i'll have a suitable filter already


My moss came the other day, and it survived the trip from Singapore surprisingly well.

The new DW should be added within a few days, with rearranged rocks and moss added.

After that however, I believe I will be for the most part cutting back heavily on my posting to this log. I know, I know, hold back your tears everyone. I think in general it's run its course, and my heart hasn't been into it for a little while now. Plus I find I'm posting to others' threads far more than my own. I'll still post occasional photos, this isn't a full blown retirement, but it'll be a weekly or bi-weekly thing now, rather than every day or so.

Thanks to everyone who helped me out from the beginning, when this was a "Just a few questions" thread 300+ posts later, here it stands. I learned a great deal through the log method, and I highly reccomend it to others starting up tanks. As I said, pics in a few days. Cheers, and happy planting!

-Rich


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I think in general it's run its course, and my heart hasn't been into it for a little while now
You pulling a Bensaf on us. He is a trend starter - EI, plants, diffusors, beer, occassional poster

I just want you to know that anyone that doesn't post on a regular basis it can be assumed that they are having massive algae problems and are too embarrased to post pics of their tanks.

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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You pulling a Bensaf on us.


Hey now, I'm not pulling a Bensaf - unless you mean, drink heavily, smoke like a chimney and have beautiful planted tanks with no algae... then yes, that's what I'm trying for.

But I'm not emulating the Great Bensaf Blackout of '05. Just cutting back on this one log, that's all. The only posts will be with regards to plant changes/ aquascape changes and problems. Since I move slowly on those fronts, posting will only be closer to weekly rather than daily.

And I will post pics to show that my tank is not embarassingly covered with algae... just slightly covered with algae, thank you very much.


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I knew I could get you to post again

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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But I'm not emulating the Great Bensaf Blackout of '05


Bloody hell a guy goes into rehab for a few days .......

Funny about being a trend setter.... how come I couldn't get anyone else into a skirt and pom poms? But mention beer and diffusers and they all want in

Right I'm off to work on next trend, little leather biker jackets for the fish to wear.... I hear that's hot for the spring season and apparently pink is the new black

Think it might be time for another stint in re-hab.....


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I hear that's hot for the spring season and apparently pink is the new black



:igh:: What would Johnny Cash say if he heard that... ::roll eyes::


That's one trend I'm happy to let you pioneer on your own


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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You guys are getting a little weird.....what have you been drinking?? That stuff can't be good for you.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well NowherMan6,

As sad as it is, I accept your decision to limit your entries to your thread (I have no other choice anyway ).

Getting over 300 entries together that cover all the changes you made and events that happened in just a period of time is not too shabby, come to think of – just a few months ago this would have been considered a reeeaaalllyyyy long thread (and still is if it wasn’t for tetratech and myself).

Just make sure that you cover the immediate enhancements (moss and wood) in the same details as you did before. This way you end this section in your tank’s development homogeneous and then you can start to switch to more sporadic updates. Which, in my opinion, is less of a Bensaf style and more of a Mattyboombatty style.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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So the eheim came yesterday and I'm a bit confused. Was a spraybar supposed to be included or is that something to be put together separately? From what I can see the outflow tube is just that one bent tube that sits just below the surface of the water, nothign attached thereto. What am i missing? Thanks


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 17:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Was a spraybar supposed to be included or is that something to be put together separately

I'm thinking back when I got my eheim. Yes that little bent piece is the standard return tube. I think I remember having a similiar reaction as you. I somewho got the filling the spraybar was included and I'm pretty sure I called Bigals and played "dumb" and said "There was no spraybar" and they sent me one no charge. Yes I definitely recall doing that "Not bad for 40 something"

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 17:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH


(still trying to figure out which smiley is for LOL, as this one says "hyperactive" )

Well, you bought the basic set, that is the problem. I made sure that I bought the upgrade with media (4l bio and 2l mech) and the new spray bar system. Actually, I called Big Al's first to make sure that all of this stuff is in the set.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 17:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Well thanks for the warning guys Hmm, some Planted Tank forum buddies you turned out to be...




I guess I'll give ol' Big Al a call and see if he can hook me up. I can't seem to find the spray bar on the Dr. Foster Smith website (I have a gift certificate for them)

p.s. has anyone else noticed: ROLL EYES IS BACK!!!


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 18:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I know LF has that "fancy" intake and return kit that can be assembled in 50 different configurations. LF you are an animal.

All you need is this http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=24997;category_id=2627

Here is a bad pic of mine with some descriptions on how it's setup. The pipe should come with an endcap to close the flow and make sure you get the one that works with the ecco.

Attached Image:


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 18:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I know LF has that "fancy" intake and return kit that can be assembled in 50 different configurations


Yeah, but what I really need is the 51st configuration, and that one was missing



Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 19:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Well, looks like it's another ride out to absolutely fish for me... they have a pretty good parts department there, I think I'd be able to pick up a spray bar...


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 22:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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All I can say is:



You have to be ready to pay 100% more than at Big Al's.
(I hope Mike, aka Tainted Glory, doesn't read that - he works there)

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 04:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Yeah yeah I know... but I figure mixing in the cost of shipping it works out about even...


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 04:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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NowherMan6,

You might want to give them a call first and see if they have a kit at all.

I went on the Big Al's website and cannot find a separate outlet / spraybar kit in their stock, hm.

I found a similar intake kit, and that was $20.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 12:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Drsfostersmith has this on their website, listed I guess as an upgraded spraybar outfit. See "Installation set 2"

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=9606&Ntt=eheim&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&N=2004&Nty=1


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 16:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Uh,

Do you know which size you would need there?

Set 2 (12/16 mm)

Or

Set 2 (16/22 mm)

?

I think it would be the first one, but be sure to measure first (before going to the LFS or ordering online).

Also, if you go to the LFS (and they have it) be prepared to pay around $40 at least.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 17:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Nowher,
Am I missing something. All you need is that $5.99 piece from BigAls. See if they'll send it to you first for nothing.

BTW you need the 12/16 size for the ecco.

Better yet just go to home depot/lowes and get any piece of rigid tubing. Take that bent return piece with you and see what tubing fits and punch some holes in it - custom spraybar - $0.99

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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 17:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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EditedEdited by nowherman6
Better yet just go to home depot/lowes and get any piece of rigid tubing. Take that bent return piece with you and see what tubing fits and punch some holes in it - custom spraybar -


I may very well do just that, great idea. I'm excited to finally get to install the new canister set up this weekend. I've had it with aquaclears and HOBs in general. That's three bad experiences in a row with them

it's probably better than payign through the nose elsewhere, as LF said. Besides, i don't need anything top of the line, I have a little tank and creating water movement wont be too much of a problem for me.

I also may get to set up my DW piece with moss, finally... /:'


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 19:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I also may get to set up my DW piece with moss, finally


Did you get that on eBay?

You have Java moss, right?

Ingo




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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 19:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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EditedEdited by nowherman6
Actually, I lucked out with this DW piece and found it at an LFS. Good find for a petland discounts...

But I do still routinely peruse ebay because hey, you never know.

Now as for the moss, yes i have java moss. I also have erect moss and mini-moss, which I'm trying to grow out to be used in my 7gal little planted tank sometime in the next month or so. The java looks great, so that'll go in the big tank with the wood, but I'm torn on whether or not to put the erect moss in the big tank just yet.

I originally wanted to put the java on the wood, and the erect near the base of the wood on some stones, but it seems to be PAINFULLY slow growing so I don't know yet. Right now it's in a 10 gal tank, 77 degrees, 28 W lighting, dosing NPK and excel and has shown little growth. The java is a big ball of growth right now.

And don't even get me started on the mini-moss - it looks equally slow growing, unless it's just taking a while to settle in.


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 21:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I still haven't fiqured out moss in terms of growth. I had java moss in a 12g eclipse with a 13watt light, no dosing and a ton of guppies and it grew beautifully. Rich, green and full.

It was growing well in my open-top same tank and light as the guppy tank and then I changed the light and it started getting BGA and very dirty looking. It seems to not have any issues under lowlight. The higher light seems to make the water column "thicker" with a mix of things that interferes with growth.

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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 21:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Interesting about the java moss. I look forward to seeing what happens with it in my set-up.

It's the others - the erect and the mini moss - that I'm more anxious about. Java moss is tried and true, proven to be a good grower - thes eother two are kind of unknown. I should just be patient I guess, but I'm having trouble fidning good info on how to provide optimal conditions for these two.


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 22:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Maybe DaMossMan can help here

You might want to shoot him a PM to point him to this thread, he might know a little about it.

Or we can ask the all- mighty Bensaf

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 22:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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I have a big clump of Erect Moss. No special requirements. It takes a looonnnggg time before it does anything. Wasn't do keen on it at first, but once it settled I really like it. Seems to only grow to a certain height then it spreads outwards, almost like each strand produces a side shoot. So it get wider rather then taller. Makes it very low maintenance , in the 3 months or so I've had it it's never been trimmed. You need to take this growth pattern into account when deciding where to place it.

I've got it tied to a rock sized piece of bogwood placed on the substrate in open light. Seems to be happy with this. Nice light green color, lots of texture, quite brittle so handle with care.

Like all mosses try to keep the temp at about 26-27o. Does just fine with normal EI levels.




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Post InfoPosted 28-Jan-2006 05:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Thanks for the info Bensaf, I'll keep that in mind when arranging it. Nice to know that it'll take off eventually. Love the sig line, by the way


Well, it's been a while since I posted a pic, so here ya go. It's become very clear to me that I have a two tank thing going on, the right side being pretty full, the left side barren. I'm looking into other types of stem plants to help build up the bushyness and height on the left.



Also, if you notice the ludwigia looks pretty crummy and I don't know why. I may have bottomed out on N 2 weeks ago when I went away for 5 days and I think it screwed the plants up a bit.


And finally, I've made a decision on my stocking. I will no longer be adding another schooling fish, and I don't think I'm going for rams just yet. I've decided on Trichopsis pumilus, the Sparkling gourami. Saw some at an LFS, and they were gorgeous, graceful little guys. Like bettas but prettier and smaller. Since they're so small I'm thinking of getting a few, 4-6. Unless there's something I should know about them that would make this a bad idea?


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Post InfoPosted 28-Jan-2006 18:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I'm looking into other types of stem plants to help build up the bushyness and height on the left



I would do just the opposite. Fill the right corner more fully and let it slope down to the left. This has classic corner slope written all over it. This landscape arrangement will make you tank look longer as well.

Nice Job

Attached Image:


My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 28-Jan-2006 20:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I am pretty much with tetratech,

Having a triangular shape mightlook very nice. Or, you could try 2/3rd or heigh plants and then a sharp drop to a meadow.

About the Ludiwigia: I don't know what might be the reason, but here are two thoughts:

- if the bottoms lose leaves then it doesn't get enough light
- second, and more hypothetical as I am just beginning to observe this in my big tank. It seems that some plants (in my case the Rotala Macandra, don't like to be near the CO2 output. My stems are very weak in that area, but in the upper realm, about 10" away from the CO2 Reactor, the plant looks very nice.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Jan-2006 21:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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I also agree with tetra on the 'scaping. The tanks has triangular look written all over it.

Good choice on the sparkling Gouramies. They'll be fine in groups they like company. They'll look sweet in that tank.


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Post InfoPosted 29-Jan-2006 06:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I see what you all are saying, I see it too now, and I think I can make it work. For now my plan is to still add the branchy DW, but I won't plant tall around it. Maybe I'll see if I can get a sort of carpeting effect going over the course of a few months with the moss in that region. Or do you think it would be better to keep the DW out at this point and rpeserve the triangle? I dunno, I guess I'll add it now just to see what it looks like - if it throws everything off too much I can always take it out.


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Post InfoPosted 29-Jan-2006 07:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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NowherMan6,

Yeah, try it with the driftwood. As you say, you can always take it out again.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Jan-2006 13:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I went ahead and ruined a good thing this afternoon.

My tank, as you all have pointed out, had a nice sloping shape developing... but at the same time the rotala - the plant group that helped create that slope - was in desperate need of a trimming. So I went and did a hack job on the rotala. So right now it's kinda shapeless on the right side.

I also added the new branchy driftwood. I cut it down a bit and tied on some java moss on different branches. I'm actually kind of ashamed to post a pic because it looks really awkward right now what with the fishing line knots clearly visable and strands of java moss flailing about. Hopefully in a few days I'll work up the courage to post a pic, once it settles in a bit.

I also set up the new eheim and it works great, I love it already. I dont think Im going to bother with a spray bar, I seem to be getting good flow without one.




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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 03:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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NowherMan6,

Get over your tank not looking super all the time. We all know that these things are works in progresses. Look at my tank. http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/4916.1.htm?107#

The first picture isn't much to look at but people give you a hand and things get better.

On a compleatly different note...someone take this bag of chips away. I just about ate the whole thing!!

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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 04:15Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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NowherMan6,

Why should you be better off than any of us ?

I would encourage you to post a picture anyway as:

- it helps others to avoid the same mistake (if it even was one)
- it can be seen as a new starting point to get a nice aquascape together

The good thing about the fast growing stems is that mistakes of this kind are only a temporary setback that dissapears after only a few days. And you never know, giving it a severe haircut might make the group bushier than ever.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 11:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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yeah I guess you're right. yesterday I just had the same feeling you get when you go to get a haircut and it turns out a lot shorter than you expected and you stare at it in the mirror and go "Good Lord what have i done!! "

I ordered some new plants today, hopefully I'll get to it some time this week and it'll help even things in the the tank out a bit. Pics to come tonight.

And Wings, what can i tell ya. It's impossible to eat just a few chips at a time. My advice is to lower the impact on your heart and arteries by eating corn chips instead of greasy oily potato chips. then you can at least feel a LITTLE better about it... works for me anyway...


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 16:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Yup they were corn chips and I finished the bag off today. Hopefully I don't get a beer gut because I don't even drink the stuff.

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Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 00:05Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I ordered some new plants today

Nowher, where did you order from?

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Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 00:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
I ordered from aquariumplants.com. In the fall I think they were a little behind on some orders because of the hurricanes but I think they're back to normal now. I'm going to call them up tomorrow just to make sure they ship right away.


EDIT: Just checked my order status on their website: order was shipped today. Yup, they're back to normal


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 02:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Yep, they are a good vendor. I got my regulator and my first round of plants from them. Last time I ordered from Aqua Botanic because they just happened to have some plants that I wanted to try.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 04:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I like those guys, I've tried other places but I always go back to them. Like I said, they had some supply problems that affected shipping times but they seem to be back to normal now.

Anyway, here goes nothing: a new tank shot. The DW is covered with a bit of java moss, which I plan on keeping shorn close to the branch once it grows in more. It's pretty wild now. The vals and the tenellus in from will be going once the new plants arrive. My idea is to go along with the right left slope and keep the plants around/below the DW quite low so the slope stays in tact. The DW kind of even keeps the slope shape if you look at it closely. What do ya think?



Attached Image:



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Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 05:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Nowher,
Looks goods You filled in the right corner. I can't get a feel from the pic, but does the new DW piece go from back to front. Also if the tips of the branches were going toward the front of the tank the ends covered with moss won't interfere with the plants crossing thru it.

Not sure why you put so much moss on the wood. Am I missing something here.

Are you going to move the intake? You could really put that in the right corner and put your return on the left or even on the left glass and have the glass diffusor right under it with a clear tubing.

I think your definitely on your way. Looking forward to seeing the new plants.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 05:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
NowherMan6,

You made it sound so much worse than it is when you described the current tank status. But I understand this, as you are the one right in front of the tank with the face pressed against the glass and looking at every tiny imperfection .

I see the rock that holds your wood down and I also see the fresh cuts on the branches. How long did you soak it before you added it to the tank?

I also would suggest you copy tetratech and get his stealth CO2 tubing . I am sure he doesn't mind .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 12:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Hey,

Thanks for the tips and comments.

I can't get a feel from the pic, but does the new DW piece go from back to front.


It goes right to left and back to front. I'll take a picture from the top down so you can get a better idea. Should've done that already

Not sure why you put so much moss on the wood. Am I missing something here


Well i made it very clear in earlier posts that when it comes to 'scaping with moss I'm quite clueless. My logic was, "take strands of moss. flatten them out. tie on with fishing line. rinse and repeat." I mean to eventually go through and trim off the hanging strands, but I figured I'd give it some time to grow in. I put so much moss on to begin with just to give it a good head start I guess. i want the branch to be pretty mossy eventually, that's why there's so much real estate on the wood itself dedicated to the moss. Is that what you meant?

In any case, it shouldn't interfere with plant growth because the plants in that area will be kept low.

Are you going to move the intake? You could really put that in the right corner and put your return on the left or even on the left glass and have the glass diffusor right under it with a clear tubing.


No plans on moving anything right now There's limited space behind and beneath the tank as it is, I had to use all my powers to fit the cannister filter with UV hook-up, plus the CO2 set up in the cabinet, and this way allows me to do it cleanly. Frankly the intake doesn't bother me that much and the diffuser will have rotala growing in front of it so that'll be hidden in no time.

As for the tubing, do you mean clear tubing or "stealth" tubing as LF calls it, like so. If you mean the second one, I'm not sure this is CO2 proof, so I'm wary of trying it...neat idea though.


I see the rock that holds your wood down and I also see the fresh cuts on the branches. How long did you soak it before you added it to the tank?




Yes yes I know, the cut in the branch. It's not really a fresh cut, more like a break. As in, I broke a piece off while taking it out of my closet Hopefully that blemish will be covered in java moss before too long.

I soaked it for a day, drained the tub, scrubbed it in bleach solution, rinsed, soaked for 2 days with a triple dose of Prime. There was also one little piece that I had to cut off, it's on the front poking low branch.


Thanks again for the encouragement.


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 17:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I broke a piece off while taking it out of my closet


At least you didn't buy the wood on eBay for $500 .

I like the idea of having a wood fully covered in moss, as seen often in Amano tanks. But on the other hand, plain wood looks very good as well and sticks out more from the surrounding vegitation .

I guess a rule could be (who am I to make rules ) that driftwood branches surrounded by vegitation should stay blank, branches that are in the open can be covered.

Or something like that

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 18:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I guess a rule could be (who am I to make rules ) that driftwood branches surrounded by vegitation should stay blank, branches that are in the open can be covered.


Actually that makes perfect sense, and it's what i figured anyway. The tall plants will be on the right, sloping downward-ish. The branchy DW the plan is not to have it poking out of vegitation, but have the plants below it/ around it kindof, and semi-cover the branches in moss.


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 18:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Update:

Made some plant additions yesterday. First, remember that little unknown plant that was sprouting up in the front glass? Well, turns out it was a crypt wendtii, rising from the dead I decided to get him a few friends, which are now planted on the left where the tenellus used to be. They look pretty nice with the rocks in the background.

I also added some pennywort to the left corner - probably a temporary move. Once it grows out I may leave it as a floating plant - with the idea being to leave some cover for the sparkling gourami, maybe it'll keep them up in the tank level, since the other plants in that section of the tank will be kept low.

The "make or break" plant I added is Hemianthus micranthemoides. I wasn't sure if my light levels were enough for it (everywhere I read says medium to high light...) But I thought I'd make a go of it anyway. I don't need it to stay all that low, I know I don't have the light to make it creep along the bottom, but if it grows at all and stays healthy I'm going to prune it to keep it 5-6" or so tall. I just noticed Dr. Bonke has some in his tank that's growing the way I'd like mine to (shorter actually) and he has lighting similar to mine, so that gives me some hope for now. In my tank it's planted at the base of and around the branchy driftwood (but I was careful not to put any under the DW, trying to give it max light), giving it a "green meadow" look. It's pretty neat, actually, and if I can get it to grow and stay relatively healthy I may have a nice look on that side of the tank on my hands. If that happens I'd like it to go all the way to the back of the tank, keeping that side low and completing the slope idea you guys have been mentioning. The other bit of encouraging news is that it started pearling nicely after being planted - but I guess all plants do that after being in a dark box for 24 hrs. In the mean time I'm going to stick some seachem root tabs underneath it and keep N up a little higher than normal, like tetra did with his startgrass - I've read HM isn't that great of a competitor for macros, so I'll do all i can to give it a good shot. Pics to come later tonight when I can resize.


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 18:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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NowherMan6,

I like my Amano Pearl Grass a lot, it grows nicely (although not flat either), not too fast, is easy to trim, and doesn't give me any trouble when I have to replant the tops (stays nicely anchored in the substrate). Good move, although now everyone will say that I copied my layout from your as I intend to use it similar than you and the good Dr.

Can't wait for the picture,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 18:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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NowherMan6,

The Hemianthus Micranthemoides is in my tank very easy to grow; even during the times when I didn't take very good care of the tank and had it completely overgrown, the Hemianthus grew like a weed. It grew upwards, not sideways, but growing it did I'm sure it'll do fine in your tank as well. When it starts growing up instead of sideways, just take out the scissors and cut away the offending sprouts

Martin
Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 18:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Thanks LF and Doc. That makes me feel a little better already. I'm excited to see how it grows.

Good move, although now everyone will say that I copied my layout from your as I intend to use it similar than you and the good Dr.


Meh, we're all copying from Amano somehow so it's no big deal... and he's copying from nature so.. everybody does it

But seriously, I think we're going to use it a little differently. since the left side of my tank will be kept low I envision this plant going from front to back, keeping the whole side low. Yours, as with Dr. Bonke, I would think would be put in front of other taller plants, no?


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 19:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Yours, as with Dr. Bonke, I would think would be put in front of other taller plants, no?


I guess so, at least right now I see it somewhere in the new driftwood jungle

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 19:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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It's too pretty to leave out. Such nice small leaves. Now I see why bensaf is sometimes preaching about small leaves on plants, and how it makes the aquarium look better


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 19:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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NowherMan6 is in love, how cute

Small leaved plants are nice, but I would say that larger tanks need larger leaved plants as well in order to come together.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 20:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Small leaved plants are nice, but I would say that larger tanks need larger leaved plants as well in order to come together.


Fair enough, but for those of us without 125s small leaved plants suit us much better

And even in a large tank, a amazon sword would still be a behemoth in terms of root system and the size and width of leaves. I guess it's all relative


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 21:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Now I see why bensaf is sometimes preaching about small leaves on plants


Preaching ???


Educating, my friend, educating

Can I help it if you guys are slow learners

Or maybe you just think Uncle Ben is some old duffer full of hot air who wanders around muttering stuff to himsel while looking for his mis-placed pom poms ?


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Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 04:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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nice looking tank Nowherman

i'm thinking of going for moss on my large piece of bogwood - i'll first see how you get on!

what is the best way to tie it down? without having it wire etc on show?

long long does it take to take hold of the bogwood?

Karl

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LITTLE_FISH
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NowherMan6,

Looking nice. I can see a triangle

Shekoi - I would tie it down with a cotton string, preferrably one that is dark brown or dark green and blends in. The thread is supposed to desintigrate after a few weeks (months), but mine so hasn't done that. Also, check out this rather short thread of My 29G. Here you will be able to see all from the addition of moss to wood, through its haydays, to a recent breakdown and a new start .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 12:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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OK, so i said i was goign to put up pics last night, but who knew beer could taste so good watching a nice hockey game at my local?

Bottom line is, i came home a little under the weather, shall we say, so processing pcitures wasn't as high on my list of priorities as "eat leftovers" and "go to sleep"

So without further blathering, here are some pics.

NOTE: please disregard the green spot algae on the glass, haven't given it a scrub in a few weeks. I guess my phosphates are too high... or not high enough... either way, they're not juuuust right...

This first one I think gives the best shot of the left side layout with the height of the HM etc. I like it



another:



And one more, a pearling shot:

HM.jpg" border="0">

Now for a few harley shots. Most of the males were gorgeous looking, all colored up with great sheen to them:



this one's a little blurry, but you can still see the neat schooling group:





And finally, one of what I think is the dominant male, far more red than anyone else. Compare him to the first harley pic - both are males, but this guy is almost solid red.



Any comments welcome as always.


P.S. holy crapola, that green spot algae is bad!
i didn't realize it til I posted the pics so large Rest assured, a good cleaing is in order tonight


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Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 16:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
I love them

Nice pictures NowherMan6,

I was waiting for you all night to post the pictures so I can add one of mine, but now I am at work and it would have to wait until tonight and by then the thread has probably moved on .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 17:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Thanks LF. I'll try to take a full tank shot tonight so peopel can see how the whole layout looks. But do you see what I mean with the low HM around the wood? I'd eventually like to have it take up the entire area back to the glass to cmplete the "meadow" effect.

And are you mad?!?! Post those pictures of the espei here if you want! I think it would make for a cool comparison of the two closely related species to get pics of them close together. If I remember, there's at least one male of yours who's always lit up very dark red like mine, right?


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Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 17:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Nowher and LF,

You guys should post some of your pictures up in the profiles for your fish. You have great pictures and the profiles are lacking.

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Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 18:15Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Thanks Wings. I was actually toying with the idea of doing that very thing since I noticed now you can just upload your photos straight away rather than sending them to someone to review. Makes it easier to submit them, though I'm sure they still get reviewed before going up there. I really like the first harley pic I posted above, I have to try to PS that spot algae out of there though!


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Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 18:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
NowherMan6,

I don't think I am mad

Will post one tonight then

Wings, I submitted an Espei Picture a few days back, I have no idea what happened to it or how to check.

Ingo

EDIT: And I think you are right on with "who is the boss"


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Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 18:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I have noticed the same thing with my common harlies, one male has deeper coloring, he is also the one usually 'on point'. The rest hang back in the current and watch him, suddenly they'll all swarm over and they'll all be together for a bit then they go back to where they were. It's fascinating to watch!

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Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 19:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Given that my group is a little larger than any mentioned by you folks, I have more than one male who colors up quite a bit. I think there is one though that adds a little bit extra color.

Having them "fight" for the Boss title is a nice thing to observe, I wish people were like that. Never does anyone get hurt, just show off how great you look, compare with the other, and win or lose, it is that easy .

Here is a male on an average day (couln't get him at his best):

Attached Image:

Male Espei



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NowherMan6
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Nice pic, LF thanks for posting it. When they color up like that they look very similar to male cherry barbs, I think.

And now I will counter with a pic of my own -





I got 8 of them last night. One didn't make it through the night, but the rest were very healthy and nicely settled in my morning. They were even eating, so that's a good sign. I'm thinking of getting a few more of these guys eventually. They're so graceful, haven't colored up yet but I saw flashes of it here and there.


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Nice algae NowherMan6

You got 8? Wow, that is quite a load.

I have followed your thread about them rather closely but I don't remember if their sozial behavior was discussed when in such a large group on a rather small space.

Being Gouramies after all, I would have thought that this will cause problems.

Ingo


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Sparkling gourami are actually pretty social for gourami. Everything I've read about them suggests keeping them in groups of at least three. Just from watching them for a few minutes this morning they interact with one another, never any aggression - and they're so small! The only way I could count them all was when i dropped some food in the water - then they all floated up from their spots in the plant mass. They're about the size of my rasboras, I think the harlies actually have more mass to them, and the sparkling gourami only get 1.5 inches, give or take. Plus in that thread I started about them a few people noted they have 5 or 6 in 20gallons tanks - CoryAddict even said she thought that many could go in a well planted 10.

Very very cool fish - I'm even considering using them in my 7 gallon set up instead of those hard to come by dwarf rasbora. We'll see.

As for the algae, I know I said i would clean the glass, but tonight is the night. You know you're a plant nerd when you stay home on a friday night to clean the glass and do a water change

Something funky is going on in my tank right now, everything just seems off. There's bits of BGA popping up, plant growth is very slow, lots of spot algae on the glass, soft green algae growing other places. Nitrates were kind of high on my test kit, which i don't necessarily trust - I think I need another big WC to reset everything.

I can honestly trace this back to that long weekend I took when i didn't dose anything for 4-5 days. Something dropped out and threw everything off. Plants haven't been the same.


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and thanks for the harley pic, shekoi, nice shot

New premie colors there, i see...


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Hm, hope all gets better NowherMan6

Shekoi, congrats on being a premie , I commented on your picture already in your thread

About Harlies of all kinds (regular and espei, at least): as much as I love them and all, don't you guys agree that they have a face that looks like they are really grumpy? Like something it ticking them off and they are muttering some curses that only fish can understand.

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Like so...





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Hillarious

Ingo

PS: I take it you agree with me then


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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH


Attached Image:

Grumpy Old Man



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Completely agree with you. I noticed the same thing - they're not happy and playful, it looks like they're always frowning.


When I saw your second post the first thing i saw was the file name "grumpy old man" and for a second I thought you were going to post a picture of Bensaf





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"grumpy old man" and for a second I thought you were going to post a picture of Bensaf


Oi, less of the old there if you don't mind


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Mine are plotting to take over the world! It's serious business world domination!

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OK, SuperBowl sunday update:


Did a good front glass scrubbing, removed the ludwigia group, which was covered in a bit of BGA. Sparkling gourami continue to to do well and to impress. Great little fish!


Also measured CO2... my ph was around 6.2, maybe under , so CO2 was VERY high, probably far higher than I needed - maybe that's what was causing some algae problems?

Anyway, it just goes to show you how well those glass diffusers work, here I'm running the thing and it's emptying the bubbles straight up, not hitting the filter outflow or anything, or plants for that matter, and I'm getting huge levels of saturation. Amazing.

Here's a pic. As you can see I'm continuing to work with the right side to get the sloping back up. Cath you all after the game!






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Looking like a triangle

Hey, what is your current KH?

You must have loads of CO2 with a ph of 6.2 or less.

Ingo


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Nice pictures LF and Nowher! By the way its about time that you cleaned your glass! Now we can see that your tank is looking pretty darn good.

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bensaf
 
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maybe that's what was causing some algae problems?


Most definately not. Low Co2 yes, high Co2 nope.It's always in favor of the plants.

Tests can be inaccurate, as can the KH/pH table. If the fish aren't stressed it's fine and you more then likely have less co2 then you think.


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Tests can be inaccurate, as can the KH/pH table. If the fish aren't stressed it's fine and you more then likely have less co2 then you think.

That is so true. Do you really think you know exactly what your ph is with a standard test kit? Your PH might be 6.2 but it might also be 6.5. that is big difference in your co2 number and if your kh is off by .5 or 1.0 than you could be way off. As Bensaf said you could really push it and see where it affects the fish. Remember high co2 does not displace o2, so with the co2 going in you should have more o2 coming off the plants.

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Post InfoPosted 06-Feb-2006 16:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Well I have to say, the fish never showed signs of stress. No gasping or anything of that nature. I thought they were OK, but when i saw the test results I kinda freaked.

My other question has to do with EI. I was re-reading the article and I'm not sure what's meant by "Inhibition" on this chart, taken from Tom Barr's website:

http://www.barrreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34

Does this mean that if there's too much N, for example, plant growth will actually slow?


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I think this is what that means, but I can't explain it right (at all).

I would assume for the too much light part: Once you reach really high lights then you would need tremendous amounts of ferts and CO2 to keep up with it. And that would not be feasible in a tank.

And for the Nutrient Part: I think to remember that too many nutrients create a blocking effect on the plants ability to take them up.

That's what I think, at least.

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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And for the Nutrient Part: I think to remember that too many nutrients create a blocking effect on the plants ability to take them up.


Interesting. I think I had been dosing too much KNO3. I may be overthinking here, but a few days back I posted that there was somethign weird about my plants, they just didnt look as lush as they used to. Well before my last WC I measured N (I know, test unreliable etc.) but basically the color was in the neighborhood of bright red, which generally speaking is high. Did the WC and dosed less N than normal and after a day I've noticed a marked growth spurt in every plant, particularly the HM. So whatever was going on, the WC helped take care of it. I wonder if it was too much N, but I guess I'll never know...


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bensaf
 
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Only seeing the chart I can't put in context.

But, yes , some nutrients will cause problems at high levels. Toxicity becomes an issue. How high those levels are is hard to say Mr.Barr thinks they are pretty high , over 100ppm. But these vary from plant to plant. Rotalas can be a bit touchy about high NO3.

High levels of certain nutrients, No3, Mg maybe K will cause issues with the plants uptake of other nutrients. You can end up with a plant looking like it's deficient in conditions where one particular nutrient is very rich.

Some plants don't too well in high GH, ie lots of Ca/Mg.

But I think is point is the range for deficiency is very narrow whereas the range before we hit toxicity problems is very very wide. Much wider then we need with our typical dosing.



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Just to open another door here:

It could also be that your water change added a bunch of goodies (micros and phosphates) that have been missing and that is why it was growing better after the new water was added.

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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But I think is point is the range for deficiency is very narrow whereas the range before we hit toxicity problems is very very wide. Much wider then we need with our typical dosing.


Right, which is why it's probably very unlikely that I slipped into one of those inhibition ranges. It just made me think for a second, that's all. The important thing is the plants seem to be doing better.

LF, I was thinking this myself, but I know I've been adding flourish and the occasional 1ml phosphate (once a week, if that) pretty consistently... if it were the case that the WC helped out then I guess I'm not adding enough of these things It's hard to fight the "be cautious with ferts" bug...


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Pic update time. First, a new full tank shot to show the growth over the past week compared to the week before. The triangle shape is starting to fill in a bit more now, nice!





The white-balance in the second one is off, looks kinda weird, but it is what it is The HM has filled in nicely around the branch, but the wisteria is threatening to pull a tetra on me and spread across the entire bottm

And now, in addition to the shots found in my thread in photobooth, I want to post some sparkling gourami pics. They've really colored up over the past few days, that's what feeding omega one and NLS will do, I guess They really are great fish, fast becoming my favorites. Lots of personality, they can hold their own but they're quite peaceful... and they croak like tiny little frogs after lights out. I hear them when I'm laying in bed, I want to see if I can cath them in the act some time, see if it's territorial or what. Very glad i got them



This one below is my favorite shot, maybe one of my favorite aquarium shots. Shows their personaility real well, how they hang in and around the plants, peeping in and out. Love the beautiful reddish ring around the blue eye as well:




(p.s. - see what I mean about shallow depth of field? The head is in focus, the mid body is not, that's less than a centimeter away!)

And some more, showing the great colors:










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NowherMan6,

Nice growth, but we really have to work on that GREEN filter intake and the oh-so-visible BLUE CO2 tubing .

What is the plant that appears to be floating on the top right?

And nice shots of the frogs, eh - sparklers .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 17:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LIKE THIS:

Attached Image:

Hide Them



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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
Thanks, LF. Growth is coming along nicely after a little hitch. The wisteria leaves and HUGE and lush.

The plant you mention that's floating the Pennywort. The gourami love it, hanging out under the leaves and nibbling on the hanging roots. I'm goign to try to keep it on the opposite side from where it is now, it makes the right side look messy. A floating lily pad type effect would be nice on the open left side.

As for the equipment, let me say this: I'm one of those people who always roots for the wrong people in the movies (I was pro-Jack Nicholson alll the way in "A Few Good Men", for example) thus, I always learn the wrong lesson from a situation. The lesson i learned from your comments and picture isn't to move them so they're less visiable - now I'm just going to photoshop them out of all subsequent update pics so that you and tetra don't complain Everybody wins!


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Nice growth, but we really have to work on that GREEN filter intake and the oh-so-visible BLUE CO2 tubing

Nowher has no interest in coming to the darkside.
I don't understand why they make that co2 tubing in that green color and eheim purposely makes the intake in that color so you buy the super deluxe intake kit that you bought LF.



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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 18:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Seriously, I'll think about moving the intake to the other side. my major concern is that this will create a huge dead zone on the other side as there will be NO movement whatsoever over there down low.

As for the tubing, i've seen black stealth tubing but I don't know if it's CO2 proof. If anyone can confirm this for me I'll be the first to go for it.


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Nowher,

BTW - Tank looks great. It's on it's way to being a real beauty.

I'm actually using you basic "Lee's Black Stealth tubing" with my diffusor right now. You could probably see it in my diffusor pic. It seems to be fine. It will probably breakdown over time. Right now I have a wall of tiny bubbles coming out so I'm not concerned.



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super deluxe intake kit that you bought LF


Actually, I didn't buy any extra kit. I ordered my Eheim from Big Al's and they had a special on a complete setup with extra media and the new filter kits (intake and spraybar). All together was barely more expensive that a plain filter on most other sites.

NowherMan6 - the one thing I see is that your driftwood will very soon be consumed by your plants and become invisible in the tank (maybe except for that one branch that sticks out towards the front). Anyone else sees that?

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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 19:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yes, I noticed this as well. It seems to me more and more that the java moss has to go, which is a shame because it's starting to come in a lot better now. If the branch was bare it would contrast much more with the plants and thus would be more noticable. The moss makes it blend in too much, especially when viewed from the front. The HM covering the base of the branch, if you remember, will be trimmed to keep it at about the same height it is now, so most of the branch will be exposed. Good comment though, LF


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I bet you could play around with the wood alittle so there is enough of a clear spot between the plants and the moss to make it work, especially toward the left end of the tank where the plant mass is less.

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Just one thing to report now, and I started a thread about it in the hospital forum. if anyone has any ideas, let me know. Basically one of my sparkling gourami has developed this lump on the right side. Pics below:







More info in the Hospital thread, so if anyone has ideas feel free to let me know. Thanks


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Wow,

This is quite a big lump.

I will check the Hospital Thread, but probably can't say anything that would help (sorry).

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Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2006 18:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yeah, so far the only thing said is that it could be cancer - which begs the question, should I just put it down?

The wild card in all this is that I have the UV running, so how could it couldn't have been anything free-floating that caused it. That means it came in with the fish, but I didn't notice anything wrong with any when i got them, and they had been at the store for a few weeks under observation.

I'm very confused


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tetratech
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I would think it's bacterial, but the strings throw me off.
Sorry to hear about your fish, but it brings up a question. With a UV running is there any advantage to a quarantine tank.



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NowherMan6
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Sorry to hear about your fish, but it brings up a question. With a UV running is there any advantage to a quarantine tank.


I would think so, for two main reasons:

1.) if the fish dies when I'm not there, whatever parasites/ bacteria could be passed along if the other fish eat the body

2.) any parasites in the fish's droppings could still be "mouthed" and spat back out by the loaches, still transferring the nasties to the fish.

I guess I'll set up a little Q tank. I just wish i knew if it was bacterial/ parasitic. The white thing hanging out of the fish is droppings, it fell off yesterday. White stringy droppings usually mean parasites, but it could just be from any infection. I've been treating with Metro. in case it is parasites, I've never had a problem with metro. affecting other fish negatively. I don't want to just start dosing anything though...


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NowherMan6,

As harsh as it sounds, I am not in the mood anymore to care for severly sick fish. I went through too many worries over my Neons that eventually died anyway. If I see one of my fish having dropsy (happened to some Platies a while back) or beginning to separate from the group and becoming pale (the Neons) then it is Good-Bye.

Your situation is a little different as your Gouramie is, based on your description, active and feeds well. If nodody soon suggests some fail safe treatment (or at least a 100% ID), then you may want to consider going my way.

Sorry,

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Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2006 21:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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As harsh as it sounds, I am not in the mood anymore to care for severly sick fish. I went through too many worries over my Neons that eventually died anyway

Yep, I'm in the same state of mind, although a gourmai is more substantial (from a treating standpoint) than a neon, but I do agree with LF. If I may quote a famous line "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few ".

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NowherMan6
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No, believe me, I'm in your camp, and I appreciate the advice. Right now the gourami isn't hurting anyone else in the tank, and is definetely still feeding/ alert etc. I think the situation deserves at least a few more days of observation and treatment. My biggest concern is that it could be fish TB


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Looks like an ulcer or tumor of some sort. Lost a Blue Gourami to something similar a while back. It started like that and eventually burst and turned into an open sore.

I had to put the fish down, had her over a year and was my favorite fish at the time But never found a way to treat it and she looked really miserable.


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Post InfoPosted 17-Feb-2006 04:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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Nowhere,

One of my sparkling gourami had a similar lump, except it was more centered, right below the gills. He was eating and acting normally otherwise as yours did for a few days, then he was isolating himself more and more before I found him dead one morning. I didn't treat him with anything though (I don't have access to internal medicines). I hope in your case the Metro works. Also, I'm not sure if quarantining will do any good, because if it's internal parasite (which I suspect it is), then it's probably already in the other fishes in the tank. Sad to say, but I've never had a sparkling gourami that last more than a couple of months. All died similarly: fine one day, then suddenly isolating itself/not eating before expiring. The frustrating thing was that I don't think I could've done anything different to prevent the deaths.

Anyways, sorry I didn't mean to be overly pessimistic. Best of luck with yours!


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Thanks bensaf and upikabu. I guess things don't look too good for my little sparkling gourami

upikabu, it's funny you mention that yours went into hiding more and more, because last night I noticed mine was always the last to come out of the plant mass at feeding time, and the first to go back in, seems it's isolating itself a little bit.

Also tried feeding it junglemeds anti-bacterial food. They went after it at first but snubbed it later. Sigh. Spoiled picky fish

I'll see how she looks after the weekend, if it gets worse or no improvement then, well... gourami heaven.


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Post InfoPosted 17-Feb-2006 16:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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NowherMan6,

What's the word on the Gouramie?

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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 12:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hey LF,

I actually just put her down this morning

She didn't respond to any meds, metro., melafix etc. The bulg got bigger and was opening up a sore on her right side. Don't know how to explain it but she just looked unhappy and disoriented. Didn't come a beg at the front glass during feeding, just hung out on top by herself. She looked uncomfortable so I just put her out of her misery. RIP little gourami.


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RIP,

You did well, NowherMan6

As sad as it is, if nothing helps then this is the way to go.

Still sorry though,

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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 18:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks LF, the others seem to be OK for now, by the way.


Anyway, time for another pic update, it's been over a week. Did some trimming of the rotala and the wisteria, little bit of the bacopa. It's still working its way towards a shape right now. The only thing I haven't touched yet is the HM. It's taller than I want it to be right now, but Im waiting juuuust a bit longer before trimming and replanting the tops. The tops will be used to fill out the left side, behind the DW and rocks.

Another tank problem ahs come up, see this thread. Any ideas?




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Post InfoPosted 22-Feb-2006 05:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well, another pic series. Here we see a form of nasty algae that has started taking over. Is this hair algae or staghorn? I know I have plenty of NO3 in the tank, as well as detectable ammonia. Actually, the reason I checked for ammonia was that this stuff started to grow wild... and we know KNO3 doesn't cause algae... CO2 is also quite high. I have been adding some Flourish iron once a week, just a bit though. Does excess iron cause this stuff?





And finally, a shot of the one fish I've never shown before. Yes, that's right - the elusive BN. For some reason he came out yesterday evening, as usual, only cleaning his piece of DW and not touching the rest of the tank. Lousy mooching BN...

Anyway, I always wondered if anyone could give me a definitive yes or no on whether this is a male or female. I know females sometimes have bristles, and even though he is well over a year old - I imagine more like 2, he was big when I got him - his bristles seem small for a male, no branching like you normally see with males. Any input aprpeciated




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NowherMan6,

Looks like Staghorn to me. Hair usually does not branch within the thread and this one seems to do that.

I guess it could be caused by the Ammonia (most likely) and maybe by the Iron. I found all the previous discussion about Iron levels rather vague and non-convincing . While all agree that some raised level would most likely not be bad, nobody seemed to have had a clear idea of how much is safe and what happens after that point is crossed. Plus a reliable and affordable Iron Kit does not seem to exist.

Bristlenose, know nothing about them.

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Post InfoPosted 24-Feb-2006 18:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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They should rename these fish from BN to BM

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Post InfoPosted 24-Feb-2006 18:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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All this is making me realize that I wish I had stocked my tank differently when starting out. I guess I didn't realize how strong the pull of a planted tank would be, as that's the part that comes first now, rather than the fish if I had known I certainly wouldn't have gone after such large waste producing fish such as the yo-yos and BN. Ah well, live and learn I suppose.

LF, you're right about the iron causing hair algae or staghorn, info is sketchy at best. Most of th einfo I've found usually goes something like this: Control your nutrients... as if that means anything to me now I do control my nutrients, thank you very much... lacking a better explanation I'll blame the ammonia, which seems to be climbing my you-know-what list by the month


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Post InfoPosted 24-Feb-2006 20:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
All this is making me realize that I wish I had stocked my tank differently when starting out. I guess I didn't realize how strong the pull of a planted tank

Congrats! Your moving from Mega Fish to Mega Plant!

Most aquarists are into fish first and the plants are the support, but I for us (well for me) now the fish are the support. That's why in certain setups you will only see one big school of small fish because it looks better with that look. I did the same thing. When I started my old 46g planted I started buying al kinds of dwarf plecos and BNs. Then I put in hairgass and they ruined it. Look at Amano, he has little shrimp and little otos. I don't think you even see corys alot, if it all.

More mass and a stronger bio-filter. Add more eheim substrate to the filter if you can. Put in the Purigen if it's not in all ready and yes add more floaters and mass. I wouldn't dose EM to solve the problem. Do water changes twice a week for a while. When I started to get BGA in my 12g I added as much eheim substrate from 72g into my HOB filter on the 12g, keep shoving wisteria into the tank and did twice a week water changes for a while and the tank is completely clean of BGA and the only alage is alittle spot.

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Post InfoPosted 24-Feb-2006 20:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Nowher,
When we were discussing NH3 spikes in my log it made me think of something that might have caused your spike. I think you said you were treating BGA chemically. If it was successful and killed off your BGA. What do you think is released into the water from dead BGA? Yes that's correct, NH3, so even if the EM didn't kill your biofilter there might have been an NH3 spike from alot of dead BGA.

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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 22:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Dang, I didn't even see your first reply, tetra

I have indeed made the transformation to mega-plant. And I have been making plans to find a way to sell and ship my BN, and maybe even the loaches when it gets warmer. Sooo much poop, so little time to clean it all. The other day when I did a vac I lifted up the DW on the right and out came a ton of long green poops, obviously from the pleco. It's tough to manage in this kind of tank.

I think they're great fish, and would work well in a cichlid set-up with minimal substrate, or in a sparsely decorated tank with just enough hiding spots for the BN. But something so intricate as the tank as I want it to look is no good, there are too many little places I can't get to.

Add more eheim substrate to the filter if you can. Put in the Purigen if it's not in all ready and yes add more floaters and mass.


I will, I'm just afraid to open up the cannister at this point. Do they start up easily once they're stopped? And does it drain the water out of the tubes automatically when you stop it?

If it was successful and killed off your BGA. What do you think is released into the water from dead BGA? Yes that's correct, NH3, so even if the EM didn't kill your biofilter there might have been an NH3 spike from alot of dead BGA.


This is actually a good point, though I did do gravel vacs after I had killed it off. There were places I couldn't reach, however. For example, I know some of the BGA was growing under the substrate along the glass. It died off, but I was never able to cleanly remove it, so it's possible the decaying algae was giving off a reading. Good point


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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 23:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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BN, major poop producers, You should see what a sand bottom tank looks like in a few hours. My BN is living in my kids guppy/newt tank and it's loaded with BGA and he seems really happy in there. BTW-Nowher I'm not trying to convience you to get rid of the guy, I happen to like them, but if it's making a problem for you the tank to me is more valuable than one fish. I got rid of mine because it was ruining the dwarf hairgrass I had at the time and I didn't see all the poop on my eco complete, but when he went in my 12g sand bottom I honestly couldn't believe it. If you think your tank could handle him then....

The ecco is really easy. Make sure you close the in and out valves from the tubes to the cansister or you get alot of water down there when you open up the valves. After cleaning etc, don't fill with water. Hook it back up open the valves and raise that big handle into the open position and slowly lock it close. I siphon effect should result and you should hear the canister filling up. Once filled just pluck it in. If it doesn't run smoothly, unplug an raise and lower the handle again to make sure it's completely filled.

BTW - Speaking of equipment maintenance, have you cleaned the ceramic diffusor yet?





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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 00:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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No, believe me I know exactly what you're saying. I've been wanting to move him out for a while now, but I'm really goign to do it. The amoutn of poop is pushing me over the edge, and he just doesn't fit in with where I want the tank to be. Same with the loaches. So eventually they'll be moved.

BTW - Speaking of equipment maintenance, have you cleaned the ceramic diffusor yet?


Yes, three times actually. Every couple weeks, I cant remember how long I've had it. Every three weeks max.

First time I was cautious with the bleach and the cleaning wasn't as deep as I expected. There was still some green spot algae on it.

Second time I said the hell with it, and did it just like Bensaf said. I took a Poland Spring bottle and cut the top off, it was the perfect size to fit the diffuser. Filled it half way with pure bleach and the rest with warm water. Dropped it in, spent 15-20 mins working on trimming the tank etc. by the time I came back to it it was perfectly clean, no algae at all. Dumped out the contents of the bottle, used a cap and a half of Prime (1 capful treats 50 gallons BTW, so this is a LOT of dechlor ) and filled with warm water, let it soak another 20 mins. Rinsed it again in warm water, and by the time my water change and scaping was done it was ready to go back in. Easy as pie


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 02:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Thanks for the info on the diffusor, somewho I missed the Bensaf info. Just to be clear, because I haven't checked are we talking about just the disc or did you drop the entire glass diffusor into the bleach solution.


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 02:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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The whole thing, just drop it right in and forget about it for a while. I find that I do get some algae buildup on various parts of it, so better to clean the whole thing.

I didn't even know you could pull the ceramic disk off of it...


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 03:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks nowher, gonna clean it tonite. I think some have said they removed the disc, but I think it depends on the diffusor. I'd rather not bother.



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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 04:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
The disc can't be removed from the glass diffusers. The plastic Azoo types have removeable discs


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 04:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Just wanted to post another pic. LF has commented in the past - I think - that he likes the way the tank looks when only half filled with water. It pushed everything together, really giving it a jungle like effect. I very much agree. I took this pic during last nights WC and couldn't help thinking - if I had this kind of plant mass when the tank is full, maybe I wouldn't have any algae at all



Also, after the WC I witnessed a strange sight. I glanced at the tank and for a second i thought som ekind of monstrous parasitic sea slug had found its way into my tank because I saw this red, blue and brown thing wriggling in front of the plants. Upon closer inspection it was two of my sparkling gourami... um... doing 'it'

I couldn't get a pic, but they had their bodies wrapped around eachother, looked exactly the same as pics of bettas breeding. I was under the impression that the male would just make a bubble nest and the fem would deposit her eggs there, but aparrently not. I may post this in the Lab. forum and see what they say. Interesting sight, nevertheless.


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Yeah,

The low water level is always a beautiful sight .

Makes one wonder if the conversion of our tanks into palladiums would be a great idea.

Yeah, what you describe sounds like "doing it". I also would have thought that they build nests. Did you see any eggs fall down? My Espei did this once (at least) and I saw eggs sinking down. But they have been eaten before they hit the ground .

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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 18:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Makes one wonder if the conversion of our tanks into palladiums would be a great idea.


Not even palladriums, maybe I'll think of switching to a 40 gallon breeder instead Much shallower, and deeper.

I didn't see any eggs drop. I see my rasboras do similar things but I thought it was fighting. I also see some of them rub their undersides on the bottom of leaves, but nothing ever drops. Interstingly, i read that sparkling gourami don't always build nests on the surface, but also build bubble nests on the underside of plant leaves. It's another thing to keep an eye out for.

I'm taking a wait and see approach with them. As in, wait and see if they do it again, then see what happens.


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When they lay their eggs at the underside of leaves then you will not see anything drop down as the eggs are adhesive and will stick onto the leaf (at least for the Rasboras).

In that case, a good indicator that there are/were any eggs is when you see the fish come back (or others from the gang) and pick at the underside of that leaf. And you know what that means, a healthy snack .

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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 19:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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My two male pencilfish do that as well, but I don't think they are "doing it" They constantly battle for the center of the tank.

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Well, I figure I'm not around enough to notice if they pick at the underside of the leaves. 3 hours a day, tops, is what I see of the tank.

Wow - it's pretty wild when I think of it that way. All that work and thinking and grinding and gnashing of teeth for 1-3 hours a day of viewing, mostly less on the weekends.

Tetra. No no, though. This was different. I've learned well the I'm the boss dance, as LF calls it. The males touch bodies but not like this. The gourmai weren't just gettin' busy - they were gettin busAY!


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All that work and thinking and grinding and gnashing of teeth for 1-3 hours a day of viewing


You are right, I haven't even thought about it this way. I have maybe half an hour during weekdays to admire my beautiful tanks . But I have a little more time on weekends, in particular during the 2 hour maintenance routine for the 125G.

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Post InfoPosted 02-Mar-2006 11:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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they were gettin busAY!


Dirty. That's just wrong.



I like the jungle, and obviously the gouramies do to. Looks good.



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NowherMan6
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Tank update: Awful news on the Fishy front.

So I came back from a long weekend away to find sveral of my fish dying and diseased. Two harleys were swimming very erratically and had patches of white fuzz on their backs and dorsal fins. Not covered, but patches. I took them out and put them down, they seemed beyond help. Then I saw my BN, and HE has the white patches on his head/ side area, but much bigger. I took him out and put him in a Q tank for treatment. Problem is I dont know what to treat with

Maracyn says it can be used to treat body fungus, but I recently used that in my tank and these white patches came about AFTER the treatment. A bunch of stuff has been going wrong these past few weeks, from fish deaths to algae outbreaks etc. I'm trying to pinpoint what coul dhave caused all this mess.

1.) Introduction of sparkling gourami: they coul dhave brought some nasties into my tank, but they had been under observation at the LFS for 2 weeks before I bought them and showed no signs of ailment

2.) New piece of DW: I cleaned it thoroughly with bleach, I doubt it's this.

3.) New food: switched over to feeding them NLS. Not sure but maybe the change of diet upset their immune systems?

Additionally, as you may know I have been getting ammonia readings recently. Not high, but there. I wonder if the ammonia presence is connected to any of the algae problems I've been having, or the fish health. I know ammonia is bad for them, but it's there in very very low levels. Wargh Any ideas?

I feel especially bad about the BN, because I had been preparing to sell him. I can't help but think I gave him some bad Fishy karma...


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Post InfoPosted 06-Mar-2006 17:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Sorry to hear about all the problems. My first reaction is:

1. What happened over the weekend. Was their a power outage, temp fluct, overfeeding, etc.?

2. Are you running the UV 24/7?

3. How are the plants. I know you have some algae, but are they growing fast, etc.



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NowherMan6
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hey tetra,

1.) No, nothing happened over the weekend. Weather was very nice here, no storms to create a a blackout, no tell tale signs like blinking alarm clocks etc.

2.) Yes, the UV is running 24/7. I thought the UV was supposed to protect against something like this I remember reading an argument somewhere for leaving them on during lights on, but i forget what it was.

3.) Plants are doing OK. Not good, I've seen them much better. I can tell they're no doing their best because the wisteria is growing quite slow... for wisteria anyway. I've been dosing the same as normal. I experimented with slowing down N, but stopped and sped back up to normal. But they are growing pretty slow, not as fast as normal. That's the other issue I'm trying to work out, and I'm sure that's connected to the algae issue.

But in the mean time I'm trying to figure out how to stop my fish from dying...


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tetratech
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Obviously no signs of too much co2, doesn't sound like it.
Are you running a stream or what's the bps count.
What are you treating with now.

The UV should deplete the pathogens in the water unless the flow rate thru the UV is too fast to do so. The pathogen kill requires a slower flow than the protist kill.

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NowherMan6
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Well, as many have noted, I've had to lower my bps when i put in the glass diffuser. It's nowhere near a stream, maybe 1-2bps. No signs of classic CO2 stress, but that assumes white body patches are not a sign of too much CO2. No gasping etc.

As for treatment the only thing I've been dosing is melafix because I have no idea what else to use. Like I said, I've used Maracyn in this tank as per the package directions and it's supposed to treat things like body fungus, yet this appeared after that treatment and was used on all the fish presently in the tank. Wouldn't the disease causing bacteria/ fungus be killed durin gthe first treatment?


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Post InfoPosted 06-Mar-2006 21:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
http://www.aquariumpharm.com/pimafix.html
Personally I would use pimafix with the melafix than you have your bases covered.

From what your describing it sounds like an infection from high nh3 or no3.

BTW - Many times when you treating with meds you end up getting a secondary infection. Oh you were treating the BGA with marayacan, right!





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Post InfoPosted 06-Mar-2006 21:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yes, I treated the BGA with maracyn, not for the fish. They weren't even sick at the time.

So you think it's from high NO3 or ammonia? I'm having trouble understanding then. I know my NO3 isn't that high and has been at a fairly consistent level for quite a while now. What would make this stressful to them all of a sudden?


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Post InfoPosted 06-Mar-2006 23:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Yes, I treated the BGA with maracyn, not for the fish. They weren't even sick at the time

Anyone's quess, but the kill off of BGA could have raised nh3 levels in the tank and opened the door to a bacterial infection.

Fish disease is not my strong suit, so maybe other's will chime in. High NH3 can bring out infections in fish.



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Post InfoPosted 07-Mar-2006 00:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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Sorry to hear about your fish, Nowhere.

I definitely don't think it's the food switch (especially to NLS, which is supposedly the "best" food out there). My guess is the ammonia level. Is it possible for the maracyn to kill enough good bacteria for the NH3 to be detectable? Did you notice the ammonia not long after you added maracyn?

It might be worth creating a thread in the Hospital forum. Someone with more experience with diseases can probably help better. Good luck!

-P
Post InfoPosted 07-Mar-2006 03:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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2.) New piece of DW: I cleaned it thoroughly with bleach, I doubt it's this.


Could it maybe be this? Maybe your driftwood has soaked up a lot of bleech during the cleaning process and is now leeching it back into the water? I'm not a fan of using anykind of bleech treatment of things that I am going to use in my tank. Considering that the normal usage of bleech is to kill off any bacteria in your toilet, I do not want anything like it in my tank. Rocks might be alright to clean with it but wood... I'm not saying that this is your definate problem, but the sodium hypochlorite would be on my list of things that may irritate/affect your fish' slimecoat.

Post InfoPosted 07-Mar-2006 06:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Considering that the normal usage of bleech is to kill off any bacteria in your toilet, I do not want anything like it in my tank.




I didn't just soak the wood in bleach and then put it in the tank, I scrubbed it with bleach, but then soaked it for a few days in a tank with 4X dose of Prime. Rinsed, resoak, rinse resoak. I don't think the bleach is leeching out, I was wondering if the bleech didn't kill any micro-organisms etc in the wood... but then the UV should have killed them eventually.

Anyway, I had a hell of a night last night. I did some filter cleaning but couldn't get the damn thing restarted. It just wouldn't fill with water and whenever I plugged it in it sounded like it was running dry. At one point I even electrocuted myself when unplugging the horribly noisy filter after another failed attempt at restarting it. Finally, a few hours after being first unplugged, and well into the AM hours, it started like magic. It probably didn't matter at that point though, most bacteria were probably dead after an hour or so at most. So this was surely a wonderful development considering my already present ammonia problems.

And on top of that, the BN has gotten worse, not eatig, pretty listless.

Anyway, thanks for all your help on the sick fish situation, appreciate the effort


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Post InfoPosted 07-Mar-2006 17:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Anyway, I had a hell of a night last night. I did some filter cleaning but couldn't get the damn thing restarted. It just wouldn't fill with water and whenever I plugged it in it sounded like it was running dry.

Don't hesiate to PM if your having a problem with the Eheim.

Usually that will happen if it's not completely filled with water. You have to open and start the siphon going again.



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Post InfoPosted 07-Mar-2006 17:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
FRANK
 
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Hi Guys,

You might want to read this site:
http://puffernet.tripod.com/maracyn-two.html

Basically, you killed off your bacterial colonies that
were breaking down the ammonia to nitrite to nitrate and
now in addition to the now "bad" water, you are recycling
the tank.

Treating that form of "algae" with any of the "cyn"
drug family will kill off the beneficial bacteria as well
as the "bad" stuff.

Another possibility when trying to eliminate that form
of algae is the use of Hydrogen Peroxide administered to
the infected areas with a syringe or turkey baster.
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/hydrogen-peroxide.html

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--
Post InfoPosted 07-Mar-2006 17:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Notes from Mardel on biological filtration: "Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas are recognized as the primary beneficial bacteria present in the biological filtration system of any aquarium. Some drugs which treat fish diseases and parasitic infestations are harmful to these 'good' bacteria. When the biological filter is upset, there is a buildup of ammonia and nitrite concentrations resulting in fish distress and death. Mardel products have been tested with known strains of these bacteria with no adverse effects noted. When used as directed, they do not interfere with the biological filter."


That site says it does NOT harm the benefical bacteria

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Post InfoPosted 07-Mar-2006 18:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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That site says it does NOT harm the benefical bacteria


Normally I wouldn't believe what's written on these fish medications. Ich medications often claim to be harmless to scaleless fish but in fact are not. I looked around for user information on the stuff and many people have had success using Maracyn for this purpose, including LF, so I had faith in it. I examined my bio-filter last night and it looked good and gunked up, not like it had been depleted at all.

A moot point now, of course, since the filter was left sitting idle for a few hours last night, so the bacteria probably mostly died out.

Tonight I'll go back to the old fail safe - a large water change and partial gravel vac - and hope for the best.


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Post InfoPosted 07-Mar-2006 23:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Nowher,
How are the fish? What's the biggest algae problem right now?

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Post InfoPosted 07-Mar-2006 23:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Well, just to summarize a bit here:

The algae problems started first. Hair algae is the main problem with a bit of staghorn developing as well. The hair algae is most virulent on the bacopa carolina near the filter outflow. It's growing in both green and red varieties. It is easily removed by hand or by python, but grows back quite quickly. It also appears in the HM, though not as much. And for the most part, the hair algae grows up near the light, not so much down the stem.

The growth of all this algae then led me to test for ammonia, which I found to be present in the tank. I've been working to keep it down, but it still registers in traces.

Then recently I noticed the white patches on the fish. It started with two rasboras who had it for a few days while I was away. They were acting quite sick, swimming erratically and occasionally floating - those two I put down. Now my BN is covered on his left side with the white patches. He's now in a Q tank and as of last night was not doing well at all.


That's where things stand with this big tank mess. I assume it was something I screwed up during my EI dosing schedule. I'm not sure what, but it was as follows:

~1/4 tsp KNO3 3X per week, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less

~1/8 or less K2SO4 at the same time

one capful (5ml) Flourish 3X per week on off days

recently 1ml Flourish Iron per week for the Rotala

1ml P dosed with the other macros per week

This is all pretty standard stuff here, the only difference is sometimes I went maybe 8 days without a WC rather than 7.

So that's the situation then. When it rains, it pours




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Post InfoPosted 08-Mar-2006 00:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Having nh3 is definitely a problem. Did you have that much BGA that it would have given you that much when you killed it. Maybe that and it did kill your biofilter and you added more fish. Also I think you said your plants weren't growing as fast, so everything was going in the wrong direction. More fish mass, less plant mass, less biofilter. What is your current lighting schedule by wpg and hours. Your plants should be really sucking up alot of ferts, but it seems like they're not.

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Post InfoPosted 08-Mar-2006 02:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Is it posible to test how much your plants take up? I just got my test kit and I am starting to over think things I think. Once the plants hit a point they are not going to want to take up as much right? Could that be some of the problem?

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Post InfoPosted 08-Mar-2006 03:53Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Once the plants hit a point they are not going to want to take up as much right? Could that be some of the problem?


Why? Nutrients aren't going to make fish sick unless you push nitrate up to really high levels.

After dosing the Maracyn and killing the BGA what did you do. What happened to the BGA ? Maracyn won't make it evaporate ! Killing off a large quantity of any organism in one fell swoop is going to cause problems. Those dead organics are going to cause problems.

From the sounds of the syptoms something has been irritating the fishes skin. A healthy unstressed fish will shake off fungus easily.


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Post InfoPosted 08-Mar-2006 04:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
cynical
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As i was reading the last few posts i was thinking
and about a year ago a lake that i used to ski at had BGA problems.. besides the major list of problems people reported. a common one was irritated skin.

maybe it was the BGA that caused the fish problems, and the maracyn took out your good bacteria.. and the high ammonia levels stressed the fish to the point that it was hard to shake the skin 'infection?' caused the the BGA

-note: i had BGA in my tank a while back, i never used maracyn just turned the lights off few a few days, but i did get fish deaths, my panda corydoras dropped like flies..

buggered if i know what I'm talking about, but other people experiences with things are always handy.

Cynical
Post InfoPosted 08-Mar-2006 05:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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After dosing the Maracyn and killing the BGA what did you do. What happened to the BGA ? Maracyn won't make it evaporate ! Killing off a large quantity of any organism in one fell swoop is going to cause problems. Those dead organics are going to cause problems.



Well, as I've done in the past after blackouts, after doing the indicated dose I did a large water change and sucked up as much of the dead BGA as possible. But you may be on to something with the dead organics thing, I imagine that perhaps my water quality wasn't as good as I thought.

I just did a large water change and got as much algae out as possible, as well as whatever organic mass I could find and dig up. Not sure if it's related or not, but I also bumped up CO2. The slow plant growth is a worry for me, and the only thing I can think of that's slowing it down is CO2. I know exactly how much macros/ micros I'm adding, the CO2 is the only inexact thing so I figure why not push it up some and see if I can get the plants going again. Besides, doesn't staghorn indicate a lack of CO2?

As for fish health, step one has got to be improving WQ. No more harley deaths, and the BN seems to be stable.


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Post InfoPosted 08-Mar-2006 05:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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So far your approach would be what I'd do in the same situation.

Increasing Co2 is always the first place to start with algae, and water changes will improve water quality. Wait it out and hopefully you're over the hump.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 08-Mar-2006 08:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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BGA usually affects new tanks because there is no established bio-filter to purify the water. All the waste is just sitting there. Any huge kill-off BGA will increase nh3 in a tank that already has probably some nh3.

Case In Point:
My son's newt/fish 10g setup has no plants in it (Actually one Mondo Grass) and all rocks. Heavy waste production and it has alot of BGA. I mean the rocks gravel and glass have nice thick dark green/blue sheets. Comes right off when you tuck gently. I recently started adding wisteria clippings to the tank all around the rock pile and I'm telling you there is almost no BGA in the tank.

BGA can be cured by alot of water changes and adding more plantmass and doing whatever you can to increase biofilteration.



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Post InfoPosted 08-Mar-2006 15:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Boy this board is really dead. I guess everyone has algae problems. I guess I'll take a nap.

My knowledge of shrimp is very limited. Can anyone tell me if this shrimp is a pregant female. This shrimp has really grown. You could see how big she/he is compared to those jumbo cardinals swimming by.



Attached Image:


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Post InfoPosted 08-Mar-2006 22:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Life sure is tough when you've got no algae problems to figure out, huh tetra?

I've been busy ona project all day, was going to respond to the original posts soon.

But she does indeed look pregnant, very very pregnant. Is that a cherry, amano or ghost? If it's a cherry you should soon have a nice supply of snacks for those hungry cardinals Who knows maybe a few will survive in the jungle.

You recommended getting them a few pages back and I was actually looking into it. These ammonia/ algae problems are throwing me off, though, so I won't do it any time too soon. I plan on starting up a little tank to breed them, just a little desktop number, maybe use the babies as the occasional live food. But again, I want to make sure I can fix one tank before starting on another

As for the algae, BGA is no longer the problem, now it's this messy hair stuff, but I think you're right that it does in a lot of ways come back to the bio-filter and the presence of a lot of decaying organic matter. Hopefully keeping the tank cleaner and with big water changes will bring things back into balance. The increased CO2 can't hurt either.

And speaking of water changes, I just did a big one last night, and boy do I wish EI allowed you to do them more often. I love how the tank rains bubbles upwards, and the water has a noticable extra crispness to it. The fish really enjoy it as well, they color up like crazy...



Wonder how my old BN is doing right now...


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Post InfoPosted 08-Mar-2006 23:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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It's an amano. I do have a full cherries in there too that I do see occasionally.

I'm really out of it today, I just noticed I put this in your thread so if you want me to move it just give me the word.

I plan on starting up a little tank to breed them, just a little desktop number,

Great minds think alike. When I started up the 5 gallon for my ram fry I kept it going and have 3 cherries in there.

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Post InfoPosted 08-Mar-2006 23:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I was wondering what you were doing tetra, posting random things in his thread....

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Post InfoPosted 08-Mar-2006 23:40Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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If it's an ammano (should've known, it's on the upper DW) I don't think the babies will be born or grow, something like that. I would assume she'll release the eggs at some point, in which case they'll still make a nice treat for the fish. They're the kind that need salinity to develop, cherries can breed in FW.

Great minds think alike. When I started up the 5 gallon for my ram fry I kept it going and have 3 cherries in there.


Mine is just going to be the 2.5, some DW, moss and other cover plants. Right now I'm growing out a few kinds of mosses, still need to scape the thing. All in good time. The cherries are supposed to stay small so I think I could get away with a few in the 2.5

And leave the post here, who cares. There's random rambling in all of our threads


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Post InfoPosted 08-Mar-2006 23:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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was wondering what you were doing tetra, posting random things in his thread....

Isn't a guy allowed a senior moment once in a while. Wait to you get older. You'll be posting fish questions in a curling forum.

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Post InfoPosted 08-Mar-2006 23:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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haha!

Well tetratech, if you need something to do you can either find LF or post something in my thread.

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/27565.1.htm?0.09523547#

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 00:06Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
The cherries are supposed to stay small so I think I could get away with a few in the 2.5


Yep, really like the cherries they also seem very hardy. My 5g has no heater and the tank swings about 10F from night to day with no ill effects.

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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 00:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Interesting about the temp. According to the guy at this website, they can be kept to temps down in the 50's.. not necessarily breeding, but alive and well. Pretty hardy.

He also sells the cherries, if I can't find them locally then I'm going to order from him. He's in NYC so shipping will probably be pretty fast.


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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 00:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Interesting. He says the females are more red, when other sites have said the males are red and the females are pale. Of the three I have one is very pale, almost no red, the other is so so and the third is very red like a cooked lobster.

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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 01:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Here's two of the three I have. Same camera settings and look at the difference in color.



Attached Image:


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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 01:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Wow what a difference! They could be different species the colour's so different. They look very nice too.

I've been afraid to get shrimp again after my homicidal ghost shrimp that figured betta would taste good. Though Buddy's a bit of a thrill seeker, he always had to get just within reach of the long feelers, they could take scales off from quite a distance.

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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 01:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
FRANK
 
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Hi,
I keep reading of folks having all sorts of success with
shrimp. I'd love to have some in my tank and I believe
they might be "happy" munching on what little algae is
in there. However, they simply don't last...
I've got Black Skirt Tetras, and Cherry Barbs.
I've tried Ghost Shrimp, and Cherry Shrimp, and I'm
beginning to think that I'm just serving the shrimp up
to the critters that already live there.
Heck, I even bought a bottle of Iodine with the last
batch I got from Arizona Gardens as they said that the
shrimp needed iodine in their water.

Everyone says that they are very tollerant of water
conditions.. Just dunno.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--
Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 02:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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tetra,

looks like the one on the bottom is the female to me. is it just me or is it carrying eggs on its underside? check that out a little closer dude...

frank,

i think in the presense of possible preditors some ground cover or plant cover in general would do them quite well. i can't see the cherry barbs being the aggressors, the black skirts on the otherhand... like little pirhanas...


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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 02:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I wouldn't be surprised if your fish are the problem. I was near my tank earlier today and my school of cardinals were acting like I had dropped some food in and when I went closer I noticed one of my cherries had come out of hiding and they were almost going into a frenzy. I luckily got the shrimp out in time. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it. I think my cardinals are feeling very good in the water conditions right now.

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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 02:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Maybe you should feed thoughs little things more!

55G Planted tank thread
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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 03:43Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Wow, I've never heard of such aggressive cardinals. Wings, they should still be stuffed from all those ram eggs/ fry tetra has been cultivating.


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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 05:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Oh thats right. Maybe they are crossed with there cuz the pirhna? Taking on stuff much bigger than thereselves only because they are in a big group.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 06:05Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Brief update,

Tested for ammonia last night can came up with absolute 0, was the exact color of 0 on the chart, in other words.

Maybe I didn't kill my biofilter after all... or maybe it just needs a few more days for the ammonia to build up. Regardless, it's the first good sign I've had in a while.

I'm going to do another algae trim and debris vac tonight, then try to get back on the EI regular schedule again beginning next week. The additional WC will make me feel better before I go away this weekend.


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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 17:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Well I'm glad the nh3 is zero. That is important.

BTW - I testing for po4 today just for the hell of it. I honestly haven't tested in months and you know what I got.

5 ppm

Now I do have some bba on glass and dw, plants are growing too well to be bothered by it. So what to do ---- Well I thought about it long enough. I'm going to pretend I never tested and continue to do what I'm doing.

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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 18:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I'm sure you don't have any green spot algae though.

Algae is going to be present in every planted aquarium, it's going to be there somewhere if you look hard enough. The point is to make it nearly invisable, which you have succeeded at. You try make the plants grow, you don't try to get rid of algae - that's the theory that we know is right, even just using you and Bensaf as examples. That's the theory I - and to a much lesser extent LF and matty for example because they tinker so much when a little algae comes up - am trying to put into practice. You're doing a great job as it is, to hell with the test.

Those tests are like the little angel of good sense sitting on your shoulder, telling you to be careful. We all may be better off taking our finger and flicking him off when it comes to planted tanks. I personally stopped testing for ph and phosphate and nitrate. (Now compare this to a few thousand posts back in LF's log, when I wrote up a passionate ode to test kits... Bensaf was right again, it's probably easier to just go by what the plants tell you... GAACK!.. excuse me, just made me gag to admit that)

In other words, good call man, ignorance is bliss /:'


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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 19:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
Yeah, good call forget the test.

BBA on glass ? I've had BBA on everything else I've never seen it on glass.

Some algae is always going to be present. As long as it's unobtrusive and not spreading no need to bother with it.

I still get specks of it on the gravel. Easy to handle, just pull with the tweezers and the little piece of gravel comes up with it. But I haven't seen any on my Anubias, even in full light, for months and months. Compare this to a couple of years ago when the Anubias where smothered in black.

Hardly see green spot anymore, the occasional speck on the glass. I haven't seen any form of hair like algae in well over a year.I'll get a slight grey haze on the glass if I don't clean every couple of weeks.

I've got literally hundreds of Java Fern leaves now. 99.99% algae free, bright bright green.

Never ever tested phosphate. I add a lot though, about 3-5ppm per week.

I'll take it

Bensaf was right again


You're just trying to get out of that butt kicking aren't ye ?


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Post InfoPosted 10-Mar-2006 08:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I've had BBA on everything else I've never seen it on glass.

Definitely on the glass, some selected eco-complete rocks which as you said I just take out and some on a few leaves of the blyxa. It doesn't touch the other plants even when they are pressed against hardscape that might have some bba. I'm 99% sure the blyxa problem is slow growth due to a light issue in the bowfront of the tank.

I know Tom Barr always says bba low co2, but in this case, I can't imagine that. The plants are growing great, pearling, etc. and the co2 is a moving stream with a glass diffusor blowing bubbles right on the plants. Even the riccia is pearling which is located in and around the blyxa.



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Post InfoPosted 10-Mar-2006 16:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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You're just trying to get out of that butt kicking aren't ye


I guess an Irishman never forgives/ forgets a slight made against his skirt. I shall remain on the look-out then.

tetra, definetely have seen BBA on the glass before, particularly in that one guy's tank in your "awful tank" thread, but that was really due to low CO2. Interesting that yours seems to be going against that grain, but in the spirit of your sig line, if it's not a problem, no point testing like a mad man and micromanaging to see what it could be. leave well enough alone

Anway, it's been a while since I've posted any pics, so just thought I'd put a few recent ones up.

This first one was after I did a WC last night (you can tell by the false pearling) but for about 30mins after the fact the harleys were doing this weird thing, where they just kept to this straight line schooling formation right above the tenellus carpet. Every now and then one would jump up to the front, then fall to the back and a bunch more would follow it, then they'd be still again. very strange, never saw this before:



next, just a close-up of the first time I actually got all three kinds of fish in one shot



and finally, a full tank shot using a custom white balance setting. I think it pushes the reds a little too far, but so far this is the most accurate to real life setting I've gotten out of this camera, so I'm happy about that:



You'll notice that the HM bush has really started to fill in, and I've started to move pieces of it over to the left to fill in that side.

Behind the HM bush there is a plant that I never identified, but was too pretty to toss. It's some kind of ludwigia species, the top of the leaves are a reddish green, but the undersides are bright magenta. Grows very slowly. I don'tknow where to put it in the scape, but I don't want to get rid of it.


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Post InfoPosted 10-Mar-2006 16:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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Looking nice, nowhere. I wish my HM was that bushy! What's the green stem plant between the rotala rotundifolia & the bacopa? That's not the wisteria is it? The leaves look a bit too slim to be wisteria. Or maybe it's because they're squished in the middle.

Cheers!

-P
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NowherMan6
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Thanks upikabu,

Your HM will grow in in no time, one it gets going watch out

The plant between the rotala and bacopa is indeed wisteria. I allowed it to grow up, and that's how it looks. It ain't called hygro. difformis for nothin'

The tenellus needs to be thinned out signifcantly, and I think overall the scape looks busy.

Also, I'm looking to replace the bacopa on the right side, i don't really care for it any more. the other area of need is right in front of the rotala, there's a missing space there. I think I may do away with that log altogether, it's kind of big and cumbersome, I dunno. Any ideas?


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Post InfoPosted 10-Mar-2006 18:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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It is really starting to look almost jungle like. Has LF tanken over your tank? Maybe a nice piece of DW coming out of the tall stuff in the back would look nice.

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Post InfoPosted 11-Mar-2006 00:49Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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That's actually a pretty good call Wings. Like I said, im thinking of replacing the low piece of DW anyway. Ill have a look around ebay again

And now, like LF, I'm going to disappear for a few days (just the weekend though )

Take care everyone


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Looking really good nowher Sorry I'm getting abit choked up .....my babies are grown up now They're proper little men

Jusr a rock or piece of wood betwee the Rotala and the little bits of Wisteria in front of it would look sweet


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EditedEdited by tetratech
Loooooking good .

Very full, lush, nice soft colors. Looks like it's time to trim and work with your stems to keep triangle look.

I also agree with "My Master" in the placement of add'l dw or rock inbetween rotala and low growing driftwood.

Also remove that tall "stem plant" on the left.

BTW - That first shot with the HRs is really a beaut.

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About your fish schooling really tight. My dwarf neon Rainbows have been chiling together really tight all weekend. Maybe they don't like my girl being around..

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Post InfoPosted 12-Mar-2006 06:12Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Well thanks for the compliments guys, but things really aren't as good as they seem.

LF isn't the only one with major algae problems: being away this weekend, my hair algae problems EXPLODED. Long green and brown threads, maybe 8 inches long hanging from the bacopa and now rotala. Staghorn here and there. Very nasty looking. I did my best getting the big parts out with a fish net, but there's still stuff hanging here and there.

Reading through LFs thread Bensaf had a lot of helpful things to say (and thank you for not holding out on the answer too much longer!) Mainly that staghorn was the result of low macros. Perhaps with my CO2 bumped up I've been supplying insufficient N with a good amount of P. Remember, after ammonia was present in my tank I lowered my KNO3 dosing because i figured let the plants consume the ammonia first, that form of N is already there. But I was dosing P three times a week to go with the lower N. Ammonia is no longer present - tested last night, the only test I still use - so I think I'll clean out some more stuff and get that N back up.

But that's not the worst part. Whatever disease is going through my fish continues to take a toll. Found another harley DOA, as well as my biggest yo-yo loach. That it's spread to the yo-yos disturbs me, as they've always seemed like my most happy-go-lucky bunch. Thus far it's affected every type of fish in the tank except for the gourami, which makes me think perhaps it was them that brought the disease in. The scary thing about these new deaths is that they weren't covered in white patches, they were just belly up at the surface. I'm really at a loss with this now...


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 16:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Sorry to hear about the fish and plants.

I guess vacations and planted tanks don't mix. Kinda like having a dog. Clean it up, plant densely, run the co2 high, throw in the macros and let's see.

Look on the bright side, more pics for my horrific tank thread . Speaking of horrific I wonder how Chaos is making out with his restart

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 19:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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NowherMan6,

Sorry to hear about your mess with plants and fish.

I still haven't had the time to read through all the entries of your log since I left, you sure added quite a few pages (for someone who declared he will add only very little a while ago ).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 21:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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for someone who declared he will add only very little a while ago


Yeah well, that was when i thought things were running smoothly, and an update every two weeks was all that was needed. I didn't anticipate the hostile takeover by hair/ thread algae.

Sorry to hear you came home to an algae problem as well... but at least you got to enjoy a week in the tropics to prepare for it.

Clean it up, plant densely, run the co2 high, throw in the macros and let's see.


I guess that really is all I can do at this point Wargh. I'm going to take ride to the LFS and pick up some weeds and replace the bacopa. I think I trimmed the tops off the bacopa too many times without replanting, so those stems are going pretty slow which explains why they've attracted the algae growth, as opposed to the wisteria. I don't like their look anyway. I'll see what the LFS has to offer in the weed department.

Re: chaos - yeah, we haven't seen an update to his tank in a while. Wonder how many of his new glass shrimp have survived


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 21:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by upikabu
I guess vacations and planted tanks don't mix.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with this statement, tetra. Vacations and high-tech (high light, CO2 injected) planted tanks definitely don't mix IMO. But IME vacations and low-tech (low light <2wpg, non-CO2) planted tanks get along just fine. As you probably know, I left my 3 planted tanks (all low tech then) for almost 4 weeks without feeding and I only had algae problem in one tank, and it was mostly green spots and diatoms on the glass. Plants grew ok in all tanks, just bottom leaf loss in some plants due to shading. Incidentally, the one tank that had the most problem was the one that had the least amount of fish and highest light (yup, lack of nutrients).

-P
Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 01:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I'd have to respectfully disagree with this statement,

Yeah, that's true. When I made that statement it was a little poke at nowher and LF who both went away and have hi-tech tanks.



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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 03:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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The exodus to the Promised Tank continues. My BN kicked today, along with a gourami. I'm starting to get paranoid, I'm making plans to redo parts of the tank. I'm getting rid of that new DW piece, I don't trust it. And today I pulled up the big long piece of DW and holy crap out poured, well, crap, pleco crap and other organic debris. Did a big gravel vac, tossed the algae ridden bacopa and replaced it with more wisteria (). Also trimmed the rotala and rinsed the clippings under water to get as much algae off as possible. Tank looks much cleaner already, but there's going to be a ways to go. Found staghorn in a few places, so macros are off, going to up those as discussed earlier. Pics to come at the end of the week, hopefully.

This high tech tank is no fun after vacations


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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 05:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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Hey Nowhere - sorry to hear about your entire ordeal, especially with fish loss on top of it all (fish death always bums me out the most - much more than algae). Can't offer anything constructive, except just to wish you luck in getting everything back on track soon! Hope the voodoo crap that visited your tank has now left.

Cheers!

-P
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NowherMan6,

You definately have some serious infection going on in the tank. Are you treating the tank with any medication? Do you remember what bensaf pointed out - the internal parasite issue that befalls Pearls, so maybe the Sparkling brought the same into the tank?

No fun at all

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 11:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Do you remember what bensaf pointed out - the internal parasite issue that befalls Pearls, so maybe the Sparkling brought the same into the tank?

Interesting since bringing in my little gourami I got those dots on my cards - interesting

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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 16:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Part of me thinks it's something the gourami brought in, but not necessarily an internal parasite. I've dealt with internal parasites before - it's usually a slow drawn out process, the fish becomes emaciated and can't eat. This was sudden, with no physical signs except death (well, on the BN and one of the harleys it was some sort of white fungus/ ??? covering) but the loach and the sparkling gourami showed no other physical signs, which makes me think it's not really an internal parasite.


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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 16:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Sounds logical Nowher. I'll tell you if my cardinals still falling I'm filling up my tank with a nice big school of white clouds.

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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 17:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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it's usually a slow drawn out process


Well, maybe not. I also think to remember that bensaf mentioned that there are potentially no signs at all and all of a sudden the fish is dead.

You just may remember when I got the Pearls and one dropped dead after just one day in the QT, showing no signs what-so-ever. That's when bensaf brought up the before mentioned points.

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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 17:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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You just may remember when I got the Pearls and one dropped dead after just one day in the QT, showing no signs what-so-ever. That's when bensaf brought up the before mentioned points.



That's actually a very good point. Maybe I'll shoot him a PM and see if he has any more detailed info. If I come to the conclusion that it's them that introduced something to my tank, that begs the question, how do I go about dealing with them if they're all infected?

I'll tell you if my cardinals still falling I'm filling up my tank with a nice big school of white clouds


No no no! No white clouds! What ya do is, you give your old pal LF a call and you take some of his magical breeding espei off his hands. You have carnivorous pencil fish to pick off the fry so you won't be over-crowded with fry like he was, and he gets to lighted his bio-load. Everybody wins!


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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 17:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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No no no! No white clouds!

Don't worry I'll get some golden ones, long-finned to mix it up a bit.

Actually that probably ain't a bad idea with the espei, but let's see how my school, shoal, herd, pack or whatever reacts. Maybe they bit each other and it wasn't the gourami. Moral of the story for all of us. Fish with "lungs" are bad luck

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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 18:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Moral of the story for all of us. Fish with "lungs" are bad luck


Yes indeed... and rule 1(A) to that Moral should read, If you must have a fish with lungs, ALWAYS use a quarentine tank.


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tetratech,

I currently would be able to supply you with 30 juvenile Espei, but it would have to be soon as I will start to peruse the LFSs for a trade-in.

Yeah, a QT comes in handy sometimes. I am very glad that I can use my 20G for this purpose.

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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 20:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I currently would be able to supply you with 30 juvenile Espei

A very tempting offer, but right now with 20 cardinals it would surely be a free for all if I added those espei, so do what you need to do, but in the future we should definitely try to trade stuff (livestock, plants, etc.) could be a good NY/NJ thing with nowher and others in the area.

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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 21:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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I wouldn't be too quick to blame the gouramies. From the sounds of the syptoms it's more like an infection or something irritating the skin or possibly an external parasite.

With internal parasites it's usually shown in behaviour rather then physical/marks syptoms. The sudden death thing is more attributable to fish with parasites being weakened anyway and the stress of introducing to new tank for example, being too much and they keel over ( a bit like LF's pearl and tetra's Honey).

In your case, where the fish were there for some time and settled, if the gouramies had been infected and it spread I'd expect a more long drawn out death.

Did any of the dead fish have swollen stomachs ?

A prophylactic dose of Metrodizanole will remove any possible internal parasites. It's a very mild med and won't cause any issues with healthy fish or plants.


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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 04:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
NowherMan6,

That is the medicine that I bought for my Pearls when the first one died. You may remember that I couldn't get my hand on it locally as all meds here contained this substance with something else (not pure) and that was too hot for me to handle. I ordered it from the "That Pet Place" website ($50). It arrived almost a week after the Pearl died and because all other fish did fine in that week I never used it. I may still use it in the future as Bensaf suggests it as a preventive treatment on Gouramies.

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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 12:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Not that I'm losing alot of fish, but I did find a dead cardinal today. (The first card lose since I started my UV) I'm still amazed at how my low tech tanks seem to do better. For example my 12 gallon sand bottom tank houses:

8 Gold Tetras
4 Black Neons
3 Otos
2 Kuli Loaches

I think you could say it's well stock and I haven't lost a fish yet (bite my tank) . I think it's been running at least six months, but I don't know because all the dates are screwed up in my thread.

I guess it's not a fair comparison because of the species. In my 72 I haven't lost any pencil fish, any bolivians, I lost one rummy in the first few weeks of setup.

My son's newt tank, no heater, had lot's of BGA and bearily any fish died. I'm also not in the camp that BGA is toxic to fish, because the BN in there was living off the stuff until I added alot of wisteria to get rid of it.



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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 19:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I ordered it from the "That Pet Place" website ($50).


$50 for Metronidazole?!?!? I remember buying it about a year ago and it cost a tenth of that Wonder why the price went up... I've used metro many times myself, as recently as a few weeks ago when one of my sparkling gourami developed a large bulge around her stomache.

The only swollen stomache fish was this sparkling gourami a few weeks ago, I posted a separate thread about it. But that was a big ulcer type thing, it wasn't a symmetrical bulging stomache.

Sorry to hear about your cardinal tetra. Was it one of those with the white spot on the tail?

No more fish loss thus far. My stock is now down to the following:

12 Harlies
5 sparkling gourami
3 yo-yos

But one of the sparkling gourami, i noticed, has one of his eyes bulging out of his head. I assume this is pop-eye?

Ya know, now that I'm looking through different lists of symptoms, it may be possible that they have fish TB. Is there any way to test for this? I know TB is bacterial, but is there a way to diagnose it?


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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 20:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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NowherMan6,

I know nothing about TB, sorry about that.

But Here is a link to my Metronidazole.

Is that what you got for much less money?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 20:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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That's the one. Got it from Drsfostersmith a while ago. Fostersmith actually has a bottle of pure mtro for sale, it's not seachem brand but it is just metro, 20 bucks I think. That still seems high. I can't imagine why it costs so much now...


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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 21:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Bigals has the Hikari Metro+ 3.5 ounces for $4.99

Nowher,
Well I still have two with the dots, so unless another one developed them it was a different one.

Anyone have any success with the Jungle Anti-bacterial food or is it alot of bs

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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 23:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Anyone have any success with the Jungle Anti-bacterial food or is it alot of bs


I have a nearly full bottle of the stuff if you want it, though it's probably not worth the shipping cost... conceivably i could put it in a white envelope but, again, probably not worth the effort

I've used it but I don't know if it works, mainly because I don't know if my fish had a bacterial infection. My fish went after it at first, then wouldn't touch it. Plus the thing with sick fish is, they tend to not compete for food so well, so it's really going to the wrong fish.

That's why I like non-food meds, you just dump some in and the fish take it in no matter what.


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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 00:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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That's why I like non-food meds, you just dump some in and the fish take it in no matter what.

Point taken

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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 02:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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well if you put the fish in a OT then it might have some worth if the fish wants to eat or not....

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NowherMan6,

No posts regarding this tank in over a week. I hope the fish loss has stopped and all is going ok.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 12:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Hey LF,

Yeah, I've been laying low the past few days, just doing some introspection, concentrating on the tank. The tank has gone under some pretty big changes.

But first things first: the fish loss stopped after losing two more gourami. That leaves 12 harlies, 3 gourami and 3 loaches. I have not been able to isolate the cause of the illness, or the algae outbreak for that matter.

I removed that new branch and the rocks around it, and since that time the deaths have stopped. I found it interesting that when I lifted one of those rocks, a sheet on the side of it just melted off. There seemed to be a ton of organic matter attached to it and around it. I don't know where it came from but I sucked it all up. Did a lot of other tank cleaning as well. Fish deaths stopped after that. I know it's specious reasoning to say that the two are linked, so it was probably coincidence. More likely is that the water quality improved drastically after removing the organic gunk. In any case I noticed that the yo-yos stripes became more distinct and they were more active after removing those things and the gunk, which to me indicates health.

That left the algae problem. The outbreak was/ is this long green thread or hair algae on the glass and one or two crypt leaves and this brown algae within the plant leaves that looks almost like diatoms, but threadlike as well.

A few days ago I decided to approach the problem by really looking at the plants. The wisteria told the story this time. The new/ infected leaves were dark green and generally not lush looking. Searching around I found some info indicating overly dark color in leaves was a sign of nutrient deficiencies, and in some cases N. I noticed the dark color in the tenellus leaves as well - usually both plants have bright green leaves when healthy. I know my CO2 was pushing pretty well, so to me that left N, since it seems to effect plant health more than anything else besides CO2 and light. I upped KNO3 to more than 1/4 tsp every other day, a little bit under 1/2 tsp. I also cut back very slightly on Flourish, since I was providing one full capful for my 46g tank, and that turned out to be a little more than necessary. For the past week WC schedule has been regular, once a week, but before that I was doing 2 per week. In addition I upped P dosing, as I believe I was underdosing it. K dosing remained the same.

I have to say, I'm pretty happy with the results over the past few days. Within 2 days new wisteria leaves were coming in bright green and full, not droopy. The algae was still present, but not growing and taking over as much as before, especially the brown stuff. It's still there, but it just needs to be vacuumed out. This will happen over the course of a few water changes. The very very long green thread/ hair stuff still worries me, but I removed as much as I could from the glass last night. We'll see how quickly it comes back this time around.

I still have work to do on the scaping side of things. It needs character again. Right now the tenellus is overgrown and wild. Wisteria is creeping into the tenellus. That big stem plant I have in the back left is starting to take off. Even though I personally like the jungle effect of a slightly overgrown tank, it needs some order. I'm planning out ideas of other plants to add, mainly more crypts and some small anubias nana probably. For some reason in my mind I think of them as "hard" plants - not in difficulty, just in terms of scape placement, because they're fairly static and don't change shape etc all too much. I think I'm lacking those, because the tenellus and wisteria just grow wild once settled, and there need to be some more anchors around the new DW pieces (I replaced all the old DW with self-sinking malaysian DW. Nice color too )

So that's basically where I stand right now. I'm going to lay low again for some more time, need to concentrate on the tanks, I think I was concentrating too much on posting about the tanks before rather than really paying close attention to them. Guess I'm not at the point where I can do both at once like you and tetra

And that's right, I said tanks, plural. I have my little 2.5g desktop tank set up. It features a large piece of DW, and I've got some slow growers in there. Mini-moss, mini-pelia (which looks like it will turn out beautiful ), going to add some petite nana and crypt parva. Probably some stems of HM once I upgrade the light. Have a bunch of floting pennywort to help the tank settle in.

and p.s. I've been around here keeping up on everyone's logs etc. I like the algae growth on your DW. It does the work of moss without you having to buy any of it. Doubt it will spread to the plants, as long as they're growing anyway.


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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 16:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I am glad to hear that things are getting better with your big tank (as I have to call it now, given that you now have a small one as well).

I am not glad to hear that you are planning to cut back on your chatter here at FP though .


Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 18:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I am not glad to hear that you are planning to cut back on your chatter here at FP though


Dude, I'm not joining the foreign legion or anything like that. I just want to follow through on getting the tank back in order and make sure I know what the heck I'm talking about before getting distracted by further chatter again I'll be in and out. With pics, since I haven't posted any in a few weeks (so much for being the photographer)


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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 21:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And that's right, I said tanks, plural. I have my little 2.5g desktop tank set up. It features a large piece of DW, and I've got some slow growers in there


I guess we are both holdouts . Sounds nice, I'm looking forward to seeing it. I hope the extra no3 does the trick for your 46g. We need some fresh pics, I'm sure people are getting tired of mine.



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Post InfoPosted 25-Mar-2006 04:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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OK, did a bunch of cleanup and removed half a shoebox full of tenellus and clipped the bottoms off the HM because it had become so think they weren't really getting enough light. Replanted, rearranged, new wood etc etc. Right now it looks a little empty, but I think once it fills in it'll be nicer than what it was.

First here's a pic of the worst algae in my tank, the looong green thread stuff:



Lovely, eh?

Now a comparison shot - first what it was, now what it is:





There are a few areas of the tank that are still giving me trouble though... Particularly the empty middle section. I was thinking perhaps another kind of tall plant, or some anubias... or both And I think I'm going to break that little hook piece off that tall piece of DW, unless anyon ehas any othe rideas of how it could work I also have a vision of a little HC carpet in front of the HM

Anyway, that's my update for now. Hopefully it's a nice little break from the usual pictures of LF and tetras gorgeous tanks


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Post InfoPosted 28-Mar-2006 14:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Hopefully it's a nice little break from the usual pictures of LF and tetras gorgeous tanks
You know, I wouldn't call this tank shabby either. I like the way it looks now, nice and green. Isn't Pearl Grass one of the easiest plants to replant and to scape? I think so.

I also note that you getting into Wisteria Heaven here . You are for sure looking at way too many pictures from tetratech .

And I think I'm going to break that little hook piece off that tall piece of DW
Why? Do you think it looks ugly? I like the fact that it is not just a plain old stick. If you plan to keep it in the open then maybe adding some moss onto it could be nice.

And HC for the front might work well too, although I have to say that I like the "beachfront" (tetratech term), so keeping it open may work as well.

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Post InfoPosted 28-Mar-2006 15:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Wow, that's some healthy looking algae. If you could grow it on a rock it would look kinda nice. . Is the that algae growing mostly on the glass and other objects because the plants look good from what I could see.

That first pic you looked like you were pretty much there with maybe alittle fine-tuning.

The second pic as you mentioned the dead middle has broken the triangle. Do you not want a triangle? Oh I just noticed it's all wisteria on the right. Did that plant in the first pic (bacopa?) get consumed by algae?

From what I see, get the right as tall as possible. That new piece of dw looks like it should be pointed more toward the front of the tank and have the plants pass thru it half the way up as they go down the triangle. That's too bad about the tenellus that looked really nice.




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Post InfoPosted 28-Mar-2006 15:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I know it certainly is different, but you must udnerstand, much of the tank had bits of dead and living algae throughout, and it was necessary to uproot a lot and remove a lot of plants. That's what happened with the tenellus. You can't really see it in the first pic, but many of the leaves had BBA growing on them and excel treatment wasn't quite working. It was also so dense that I couldn't vac under there, so there was a lot of organic buildup for whatever reason. I'm trying to keep the bottom as clean as possible to improve WQ.

Now, the wisteria on the right is temporary, it's there right now because it's a great filler and great nutrient sucker. It's there until the algae break-out fully subsides, which it appears to be doing as the green thread stuff has shown no signs of coming back. (the rgeen thread stuff, by the way, only grew on the glass. th eonly stuff on the plants was this brown dirty looking stuff that looked suspiciously like diatoms. ) The bacopa sadly would not recover from the algae outbreak, it was sonsumed, and i think I clipped the tops off too many times, the bottom stems just didn't grow out. Add bacopa to the list of plants where you have to replant the tops every time

As for overall shape, I'm not sure if I want the triangle. I don't know what i want, but I'm not sure why there needs to be a defined shape, for example, it seems like I only have a few options: triangle shape, bell curve, or concave. I guess i just want something more random and less defined at the edges, but more defined within the 'scape itself, with room to get a little overgrown. Is that too much to ask?!?! That's what I'm going to experiment with anyway. Right now the plans are to eventually move some of the wisteria out of the right, and move the rotala group further to the right, adding another large stem plant grouping to either the middle or the right. I'd also like to add a few mid-level plants around the big DW on the right, like crypts, and maybe a tropica sword or two, something small. i didn't have success in the past with the tropica swords but that was because of my fert regimen.


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Post InfoPosted 28-Mar-2006 17:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Nowher,

I like the set up of the new tank better. Let things grow in and play arouhd with shapes and I think you will be happy.

What kind of filter are you running?

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Post InfoPosted 28-Mar-2006 17:38Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Thanks Wings,

It's an Eheim ECCO some-number I forget, I think it's the biggest one


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Post InfoPosted 28-Mar-2006 17:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I see... thanks I have the same problem with the bright green hose. I am running a Odyssea aka new jebo on my tank. It really moves some water around compared to the HOB job.

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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 00:28Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I don't mind the hose being in view nearly as much as others here might , the only problem I have with it is that hair algae infected it very badly.

I hear ya on the filter though. After hooking up the eheim my water flow was actually pretty minimal until I hooked up the spraybar. Woosh! That got things going


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 00:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Why did the Rotala change color and become so green ?

I take it you've upped NO3 - what about micros ?


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 03:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I am not running a spray bar on mine. Just having it come out at a right angle. Kind of makes a river system. If I do the spary bar I would have to find a way to hide it better than just having the 90 degree bar hanging there. Bensaf green is not quite might idea of a good time with a black background.

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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 03:59Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Yes, the unfortunate side effect of the upped NO3 has been the green rotala. I upped N to this level because I'm trying to get the plants going the best I can. I've been dosing micros as per the bottled instructions. Because the algae outbreak I've been having is a thread/ hair algae problem - see the pic above - I'm afraid to add extra iron. In addition to the extra N I've also been adding extra P. This has made the wisteria take-off pretty well, and since that's the outcompete the algae plant I'm looking to get going the most, I guess I'll keep this up... unless you suggest another course of action?

Wings - my spraybar runs flat across the top of the tank, paralell to the side, so it flows out across the top of the tank


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 04:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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I guess I could probaby get mine up that high but I woud have to do some chopping of the pipes.

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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 04:45Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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See here for new tank development - http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/28093.1.htm?0.5325311#

Hint: it has to do with these:






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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 16:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Nice NowherMan6

I guess if you want to find out for sure then you will have to take a dive into your tank as well (in case you don't know what I mean, read my log again ).

Great news,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 18:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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No, I read your log, LF, I know exactly what you mean Funny that it happened at roughly the same time, though. Maybe it's something in the Jersey water, or a barametric pressure change in the area, or maybe they just know spring is in the air.

Either way, I think we both need a miniature version of ALVIN (ya know, that deep sea submersible they used to find Titanic ) to confirm.


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 18:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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NowherMan6,



Yup, a mini sub - that is what we need, with lights of course. I checked some toy periscopes that we have at our company (give-aways) but they didn't turn out any good for the task at hand. I guess I at least will have to wait and see if anything will wiggle somewhere at some point.

Are you stocking up on baby food then very soon (just in case)?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 19:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
I think we both need a miniature version of ALVIN

No you don't, you need the Fishgeek:



Attached Image:


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 19:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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OK, I'm looking for advice on how to proceed now.

As you know the tank is still suffering from algae problems. IN LFs log it was suggested that large amounts of turnover and redo's of the tank can lead to mulm and ammonia being stirred up into the water column, allowing different types of algae to appear.

My dilemma is this: many of my plants are affected with the brown algae described in another thread, mostly at the bottom of the stem. I'd like to go through and snip the bottoms off tonight and replant the healthy parts. Before replanting I plan on sucking up any mulm that gets churned up when the stems are pulled out.

In LFs thread, however, bensaf and tetra suggested doing work like this only a little bit at a time.

So my question is, is it better to do it as I originally planned it, or to do one plant group at a time per week?


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Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 21:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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NowherMan6,

I thought I replied to your question above yesterday evening, but then we had a power failure and the modem went out

Anyway, what I said was that I am for sure not the right person to ask as I have the same problem. But as you can see from my tank, overhauls don't seem to help. As such, try the slow approach, trim off heavily affected leaves, add more weeds (aka Wisteria <- bracing for impact from tetratech) and see if this helps. If it does help then let me know so I can approach it the same way . No, actually this is what I am going to do this week (or weekend) anyway.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 17:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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D'oh! That response came one day too late. I already did the overhaul.

But here's the thing. I don't know what it is about my tank or the way I take care of it, but there was so much crap, organic gunk and who knows what under the wisteria pile that I finally understood why the algae was happening. Holy cow, I can't believe I got those gourami to breed under those conditions!

What I did was, I removed one plant group at a time, and when I removed that group I did a gravel vac of the area. So it worked out to three different gravel vacs, one for the wisteria, one for the rotala and one for the HM. Leaf litter under all of them.

I had to do a hack job on the wisteria though. You could tell the healthy parts and the unhealthy parts. Most of the main stems were covered in algae so I took them all off and saved the healthy parts. I meant to take a comparison shot of the old leaves and the new leaves, the old ones being an ugly dark green, the new healthy being a nice bright green.

All in all I took a lot of stuff out of that tank, both old algae covered stems and gunk from the bottom. I'm goign to continue with another WC some time this week to make sure I got as much gunk up as possible, then I'll get back to the once a week routine. The plants do look nice and clean though. And I also cleaned the diffuser. It's vitally important to keep that disc clean. if it clogs up you get bigger bubbles and less CO2 saturation. All clean it comes out in a fine mist, most bubbles don't even make it to the surface.

So I'm pretty happy with this, it gave me a chance to do a good amount of house keeping, hopefully I can maintain this. I plan on adding more weeds ASAP, maybe more wisteria, maybe some hygro or hornwort. My HC is coming in the next day or so, so that should be exciting to plant as well. We'll see how this goes in a few days.


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Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 17:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Sorry about that NowherMan6

Now on to this:
hygro or hornwort
What hygro other than Wisteria? And I personally "hate" hornwort. To me it is the most ugly plant I ever had, and really messy on top of it. Wherever it was shaded it would simply disintegrate and leave a big mess of needles everywhere.

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Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 18:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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What hygro other than Wisteria


I forgot, wisteria is hygro difformis. I was refering to the weed of all weeds, hygro polysperma, even though I tossed a big batch of it a few months ago, it has great value as a nutrient sucker.

I have a love hate relationship with hornwort. I don't really care for the look of it either, just what it can do. I wouldn't place it in the aquascape, just let it float... but i find that it becomes a breeding gorund for green algae when it floats. I certainly share your dislike of its look though.



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Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 19:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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just let it float...
I thought that this is what you would do with it, but even that, IMHO, creates a problem: shading of other plants. If the hornwort would continously cirle on the surface then this would not be an issue, but often the surface current pushes floaters in a particular spot and that this where the plant spends its day, shading all plants below it.

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Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 19:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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It's not even just that. I've found that certain plants don't really do too well when left floating.

Pennywort, which I have as a floater now, does well because once at the surface the leaves adapt to surface life. They become a little thicker and more waxy, like a marsh plant.

Hornwort, on the other hand, just sits there and does not adapt. I've found that it collected a lot of junk in its branches. Plus you also raised an interesting point about its brittleness - with the new spraybar I have creating more current I'm sure the needles would break off easily in the current creating more mess.

Thanks LF for reminding me how much I dislike that plant!

I will think about other plants though.


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Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 20:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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NowherMan6,

How about a trip to AF in two weeks? In case you don't know what I am talking about, Here is the thread that mentions a planted tank discussion.

I signed up over the phone yesterday

I don't think we would get tetratech to come though, he is too scared to venture into Jersey .

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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 11:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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As for hygro's Maybe try some Sunset. It can be pretty pink!

55G Planted tank thread
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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 13:26Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I saw the thread about the meeting but unfortunetely I can't make it that night, have previous plans. Sounds like it could be cool though, nice to see that there are other people in the area that are into the planted scene.

Wings, I don't think hygro polysperma is available anymore. Last I heard it's classified as a federal noxious weed.

I'm currently looking into some other plants, maybe crypt balansae and some more stem plants to work with.


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Wings, I don't think hygro polysperma is available anymore. Last I heard it's classified as a federal noxious weed.


Hmm... Well I have quite a bit of it. We probably shouldn't talk about how much my store has right now... How do you find out whats ok and not ok?

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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 03:00Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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NowherMan6,

Yeah, the fact that a plant is classified as a federal noxious weed doesn't seem to stop its distribution. Just look at Cabomba, same deal. Tetratech may know more about this particular "weed" as I have read that various water ways in Long Island have been heavily infested with it.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 10:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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My wife to be's mom was asking me all sorts of questions if I was part of that problem a while ago....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 14:50Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Well, in some cases I think it does, at least with hygro. AZgardens.com and now aquariumplants.com have stopped selling it. (speaking of aquariumplants.com, have you seen the new website? snazzy)


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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 15:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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The pic below shows a lake near my house. See how thick the water looks. It's completely choked with Cabomba

Attached Image:


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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 16:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks tetratech for the picture

You could make a fortune selling this stuff from that lake illegally, although I am not recommending at all that you do that.

And yes, I have seen the new site of aquariumplants.com, and in fact I have ordered from them twice since the new site is up. There are still some areas that they have blank right now, but I am sure they will fill them in when they have the time to do so (hey, just like FP).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 18:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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EPILOGUE:

It has been a few months since my last post in this log, and, since it went on pretty long and in terms of developing my aquascaping and knowledge of planted tanks was an undoubted success, I thought this log deserved a formal wrap up.

My last ditch attempt to save and redo the tank failed. I couldn't beat back the algae, and most importantly, the disease that was sweeping through my tank earlier continued to kill off most my livestock. When I saw the remaining fish were infected, and knowing I couldn't stop whatever it was, I put them down. Very hard, that was, but to me it was the humane thing to do.

So lately I've just been tearing down the tank. Now, where once stood a developing world of my own creation, there is just an empty tank in need of a cleaning. No longer is it a vibrant piece of living art, just an empty space.

Now it's just time to move forward. I plan on removing the DW and just throwing it out. I could clean and scrub it, but I wouldn't feel right about selling it to someone else in case whatever disease was in the tank still remains inside the wood somewhere. The tank will get a good hard cleaning - bleach it out and get in every crevice. I plan on selling it locally once I feel it's ready. I feel I can sufficiently clean and disinfect it so that it can safely be used by someone else - however, if anyone out there feels it'd be better to just not sell it then please let me know, I'd like to know all opinions on this. I'll sell off the stand and the light hood.

However, I will keep the CO2 set-up and the cannister filter because I will be using them again some time in the near future. Large-ish planted tanks are not out of my future, I know that for sure. I just need to properly plan and think etc and learn from my past mistakes and successes. That's the best I can do, I think.

And so, I thank all of you for your contributions over the past year. LF, tetra, bensaf and others have taught me a lot. It's been tons of fun, and I'll see you on the boards

- Rich


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jun-2006 04:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Rich,

What a sad epilogue

I knew somewhat that your tank wasn't doing too well, but I didn't know that it was so bad, with regards to algae and in particular the fish killing illness. I can deal with algae, but when one fish after the other succumbs to an illness, that eats me up. So sorry for you.

Being a man of caution, I would throw out the wood. Others may recomment to boil it, which may be fine, but that is not my style. Disinfecting the tank and other equipment will work well though, IMHO.

And I find it a good idea that you keep the CO2 unit, an expensive piece of equipment that will remind you that you have to put it to use in a bigger and better tank in the very near future .

Now, don't you dare to dissapear into the nirwana of becoming a lurking reader of our logs, your input is not only a pleasure of communication but your knowledge and experience are valuable assets that I would hate to see lost. More than once has your opinion swayed me into a particular direction (may I say driftwood from EBay).

Last but not least, planning and setting up a new tank is a very exciting task, keep on working on it

Have fun,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jun-2006 10:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Nowher,
Sorry to hear about taking your tank down and the loss of your fish. There are some fish in my tank I am going to cry the day they go because I have had them for about 5 years now.

Best wishes with the new set up soon to come. Keep us updated!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 27-Jun-2006 13:55Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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It's that @#$% Jersey water.

Nowher,

It wasn't too long ago that I had a tank literally blow-up after turning it into the latest L.I. Brewery. I lost about half my fish, including my favorite Snowball Pleco. That tank also had it's share of problems with a slimy coating that seemed to get on all my plants. I learned alot from that experience with the help of Bensaf, LF and you as well.

Sometimes things just happen and are beyond your control, bad piece of DW, corrupted eco-complete, diseased fish.
Even Amano talks about all the fish he killed along the way as he learned about the hobby.

This country is run by a cowboy, so get back on your horse.


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jun-2006 16:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Thanks for the kind words everyone. I've been keeping up with all of your logs and have found them inspiring, but when I ceased to be inspired by my own that's when I knew it was time to tear it down and start over again later.

I guess it's a case of the "46 bowfront curse" striking again. My next move I guess will be to clean everything out and sell it off, and then start planning another tank. I won some money while in AC two weeks ago (kids, don't gamble .... and don't drink ... and certainly don't do both at once ) so I may get a price quote on a custom type tank, or maybe go for an ADG type set-up, something smaller and rimless, we'll see.

And Wings, I hear ya on the fish part. The hardest ones for me were the loaches, they had more personality than any other fish in there. For a while the deaths stopped, then would come again, then stop again etc. This last wave is when I put them down.

Thanks again for th esupport all


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jun-2006 19:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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or maybe go for an ADG type set-up

Now that is pure evil

First making us all sad, and then telling us you go all out and get a super tank. You go, Man

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jun-2006 20:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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The camera does not make the photo, nor does the tank make the aquascape. Just tools my friend, that's all they are.




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Post InfoPosted 28-Jun-2006 05:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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The camera does not make the photo, nor does the tank make the aquascape
Well Rich, not really

If it wouldn't be for you then I probably would make mostly mediocre pictures. Not because I learned so much about how to make pictures from you, but because you recommended the right lense.

And with regrads to the tank: I immediately noticed the silicone borders after I redid the 20G and wished for an ADA tank. It would have made a big difference.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Jun-2006 10:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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