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When you have wisteria as your avatar and taking up 2/3 of your tank bottom your going to be very protective. I might surprise my wife and garnish tonites dinner with some. Great idea right

Last edited by tetratech at 15-Nov-2005 11:04

My Scapes

Fantastic idea, I think! So what did you serve as the main course, filet of clown loach?

CO2 update: I'm glad to say that my DIY set-up is finally starting to produce... my ph has risen significantly since the bottle ran out, but at least there's SOME co2 being pumped in there, which is better than none at all.

The polysperma is the first to show significant growth so far... and I'm starting to notice little bits of brown algae (diatoms) on some of the leaves. I guess that's normal for a new tank like this, but I was hoping to avoid it. Maybe I'll invest in a few otos when I up my stocking in a few weeks...

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

Diatoms come from excess silica, so this must have been contained in your substrate (as the tank = glass is not new). Let me tell you - good food source for fry

Glad to hear that you got some CO2. What do you mean with the ph has risen significantly? How much fro where?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I don't know if anyone stated or not, but your tenellus was grown emersed. It will lose all of the spade shaped leaves eventually and grow more pointy thin leaves in it's place. So don't worry if yours are losing leaves or turning brown. It's going to happen.

EDIT: ah I see now....I'm a little late on the tenellus thing.

Anyways, I like the new look!

Last edited by mattyboombatty at 16-Nov-2005 10:03

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well I'm glad diatoms are a good food source for fry, but unfortunetely I don't think I'll ever have fry in that tank unless i get livebearers, because my yo-yos are sure to eat any eggs that fall on the substrate. A fat lot of good those diatoms are doing me now ]:| All I care about is getting rid of them!

yeah, my ph is usually between 6.8 and 6.6, which puts me between 15 and 22ppm of CO2. last night i checked it and it was around 7.0, maybe a little above (it was a little more blue than the 7.0 indicator). That happened over the couse of a day and a half, so hopefully the swing wasn't too bad. No signs of stress from the fish at all, so I'm not too worried... just about the plants. Tonight they will get their first water change and grooming... and now I'm going back into LFs log to find that info about how to trim certain plants. Wish me luck wading through all that...

And thanks matty, a third opinion never hurts

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Back in the saddle!

Update: bensaf's list of plants that need to be uprooted every trim vs. those that can be snipped is actually on page 9 of tetra's log. I just read through 29 pages of Log for that info. My eyes are bleeding. I need to lay down...

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Good job NowherMan6,

Now I know where I can find it again

I hope it was worth the blood loss.

Ingo

EDIT: I stated

Somewhere buried in tetratech’s or my log (I think) is a nice list of how to prune certain plants

-- If you would have followed it in that order you would have safed yourself from reading 20 pages

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 16-Nov-2005 14:33

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

EDIT: I stated "Somewhere buried in tetratech’s or my log (I think) is a nice list of how to prune certain plants" -- If you would have followed it in that order you would have safed yourself from reading 20 pages

Oh what a fool I've been! Increasing my knowledge by reading all those pages when I didn't have to!

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Back in the saddle!

Did some housekeeping the other day and cleaned some things up. I trimmed the rotala and it's already showing some nice new growth. I switched a section of it around , bunched it up a bit more, something with a few stems of the bacopa. I also gave the tenellus a bit of a trim. Here's a shot of the trimmed section:



I'm still waiting for the bacopa and rotala to grow in more before I start bunching and moving things around to see what looks best, but I like it so far.

Also, here are two shots of "things" that have recently grown in on the tenellus - they look like runners to me, except they're growing straight up in the air, not along the ground. If that's what they are, should i push them into the substrate? If that's not what they are, then anyone have any ideas?





And I've taken your early advice, tetra and LF, and gotten some new rocks. I haven't put them in yet, but they're a lot more natural looking that the white ones I have in there now. [/font][/font][/font]

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 18-Nov-2005 08:46

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NowherMan6,

The more I look at your tenellus the more I think it is something else.

It is giving me way more the impression of being a form of Crypt or Anubias.

Crypt in particular because of the leaf shape,
Anubias because ot the things that you assume are runners, I think they are flowers.

That is very interesting ...

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

NowherMan6,

They are flower sticks. When I first bought my E. tennelus, they look just similar to yours with a couple of those vertical sticks with flowers on top. As a matter of fact, I had no idea they were E. tennelus (labelled "misc. sword" ); I just thought, hey cool, plants with flowers! A few weeks after they've been in my tank, they started growing real (horizontal) runners and eventually the mother plants with the emersed look died.

I found a picture of my tank]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/tank3_wk1.jpg[/link] where you can actually still see the mother plant with its long, broad leaves and flower sticks (sans flowers). It's the plant on the right, in front of the driftwood. A couple of months later they looked like [link=this.

Last edited by upikabu at 18-Nov-2005 09:18

Last edited by upikabu at 18-Nov-2005 09:19

-P

I think I'll have to give aquariumplants.com a call and see if they'll confirm whether they were grown emersed or not, and if not, what kind of plant they gave me. I'm not really mad about it if it was a substitution, I just want real tenellus and I just want to know what the heck this is if it isn't tenellus

But I don't think it's a crypt or anubias.. defintely not anubias, the leaves are very grasslike and thin and there's no rhizome. Possibly a crypt, but i didn't think crypts flowered like that... if anything it's some other species of dwarf sword plant, I just want to KNOW...


EDIT: Ohhh, thanks for the pic! Are those smaller plants around it from the mother plant, or were they put there seprately?

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 18-Nov-2005 09:19

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Nowher,
upikabu's plant definitely looks like your's just the emersed state, just hold tight.

upikabu you tank looks really nice. If you group that plant in front of heater alittle tighter you won't see the heater or you could add some hardscape. You could also by the visi-therm stealth version which is all black. That's what I have in my tank with a black background you barely see it.



My Scapes

Yup, those little plants that you can hardly see on the middle of the tank were from the mother plant. For the longest time I thought I had a new species of sword. The tennelus forest on the second pic is actually from only 2 mother plants. So I bet in a couple of months you'll have a jungle.

-P

Thanks, tetratech. Actually now that things have grown in and I've replaced the Elodea, the tank looks like this. Well, that was last week anyway.

-P

Nice Job, really

Still think some driftwood poking through from the middle of all those plants would really finish it off, but that's me. What's the plant behind the tennelus carpet.

BTW - How do your bolivians get along. I just purchased a second. I'm pretty sure I have two males and the bigger keeps the smaller one to the other side of the tank.

My Scapes

So I bet in a couple of months you'll have a jungle.

here's hoping!



......

And another bit of news i forgot to add, the water seems to be losing the brownish tint... it seems a little cloudy still, but nothing too noticable.

Now I continue to play the waiting game... and stop my mind from drifting off and thinking about what other fish I'm going to add '

EDIT: that seems expected with the bolivians... your older one is sure to have set up a territory already. the good thing is your tank is so large i'm sure the little one has enough room. maybe they would have gotten along better if they were introduced at the same time and not staggered

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 18-Nov-2005 09:46

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Tetratech and his driftwood

Yeah, upikabu is right, it really looks the same. But based on what was said my confusion is understandable, right?

And upikabu – you speak of a Tenellus Garden, have you seen my Tenellus Jungle ? It is [link=Right Here]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Aquascaping/61406_3.html" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link]. (Nice tank, btw.)

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Tetratech and his driftwood
Damn straight.
If you want your tank to look like a tilted vegetable cart than don't put any hardscape in. "I'll take two of those and three of those and those look nice today I'll take a half dozen" Don't get me wrong this is my opinion and everyone must like what they see when they set back and look at their tank. If you tightly group each plant and have contrasting leaf textures next to each other it does have a visual appeal. On the other hand Amanos or let's forget Amano a more natural appearance would take into account all the elements (rock, dw, plants, substrate and build around the hardscape. In nature if you have a big rock on a piece of fertile dirt the plants will grow around it. Some will be tall, some short, maybe moss, etc, I don't think the rocks are placed around the plants. You must build your layout from the foundation, which is the hardscape.

Last edited by tetratech at 18-Nov-2005 09:57

My Scapes

Still think some driftwood poking through from the middle of all those plants would really finish it off, but that's me. What's the plant behind the tennelus carpet.

I totally agree with you, tetratech, especially since I took out the bogwood on the left (it's just too damn big!) early this week. Now the left side lacks focus, just a hodgepodge of plants (sounds familiar, eh LF? ). The problem is finding a piece of driftwood that's big enough but won't overshadow the plants too much, especially the tennelus (I only have 1.7wpg). Hope I'll find something at the local fish auction today.

BTW - How do your bolivians get along. I just purchased a second. I'm pretty sure I have two males and the bigger keeps the smaller one to the other side of the tank.

What makes you think mine get along? The only times they're at peace with each other are were they were spawning and protecting the frys (twice). At all other times they're on opposite sides of the tank mostly, and the alpha male always chases away the female during feeding time so I have to feed them separately. I think it's pretty normal behavior for Bolivians (and most cichlids) no matter what sex.

And upikabu – you speak of a Tenellus Garden, have you seen my Tenellus Jungle ?

LF - you win. BTW, do you have CO2 in your 29G and how much light do you have there? My tennelus don't look so green anymore now that the big background plants are grown in and some are shading it. But I wonder if it's really a lack of light or lack of CO2 (I use Excel). I'm really anal when it comes to messy-looking things (hence my nick); that's why I decided to trim away the tennelus garden a few months ago. Took me a while. In all honesty though, it never looks as good again since that time.

-P

What's the plant behind the tennelus carpet.

Do you mean the green flame sword (the one with reddish leaves)?

-P

Yep, that answers it. Nice plant!

My Scapes

upikabu,

Does the question about lights in my tank imply that you only looked at the pictures in my thread ?

Ok, here is a summary: 65W 6,700K PC, no CO2 except once every two weeks 10ml of Flourish Excel. Plants look very green ever since I got the 6,700K light – that is one side effect of this temperature, everything is soooo much greener.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Nice tank! I tend to just dive in and start rooting around and let my fish fend for themselves. My house is most often too cold to have fish in buckets for too long, they get sick when I warm them up again. But after reading this thread, when I do a major replant of my 25g I will remember to move the poor little fishies first.

I have a question about using CO2, can it be used when one has mostly large fish and not a heavily planted tank? Or would Excell be a better bet? I have never used Co2 and while my plants seem fine they just don't grow like yours do, my amazon swords haven't reached the surface and they'll be a year old in March!
I have learned so much by reading these threads so please keep posting. Tetra I made it through yours last night.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Well, since you read through my long and sometimes bizarre thread I think it only just that I answer your Co2 question.

Its more a matter of light intensity whether co2 would be applicable. Almost all plants grow faster with the addition of c02. Don't want to get too much into it because this is Nowhere's thread about his tank, but if you want to continue in another thread I'm sure the myself and the others would be happy to answer any co2 questions.

My Scapes

My house is most often too cold to have fish in buckets for too long, they get sick when I warm them up again. But after reading this thread, when I do a major replant of my 25g I will remember to move the poor little fishies first.

Yep, just plop the heater in the buckets with them, it's a lot less stressful. Also, keep them in the old tank water in the buckets, that'll keep the stress down too.

Hehe, tetra, if you want to post the long answer that's more than fine with me. These aer all very open threads afterall.

In anycase, what tetra said is true - 99% of the time adding pressurized CO2 will make your plant growth take off, but if light is your limiting factor (the big things plants need are: carbon, N, P AND K and light) then all the CO2 in the world won't help them grow as fast as they can. Feel free to ask any more questions here or elsewhere, we'll help the best we can

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Haven't been keeping up with this log too much, very hectic at work...

Anyway, my tank has now taken on the dreaded white cloudy appearance, so now I'm off to search through tetras thread to see what he did to clear things up.

Also, I'm noticing that there's a green algae forming on my substrate - not BGA, its not loose or slimy, it's just green. Which means one thing - my BN is not doing his/ her job! ]:| I mean, why else would I have that ugly little critter in there if not to clean up some of the easy green algae - it's not like Im asking him/ her to take on staghorn algae...

methinks otos will be a part of my new stocking...

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methinks otos will be a part of my new stocking...

methnks that Shrimp should be part of your new stocking as well as Otos are very picky about their food . I cannot vouch for it, but it appears to me that as soon as algae strands reach a measurable size the Otos are not going to eat it anymore.

Ingo

EDIT: have fun with tetratech's Willow Branches

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 22-Nov-2005 09:59

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Nowher, to save you from reading through my log (unless you really want to) here's what it could be and what I had and did. There are 3 possiblities in order of difficultly.

1. Bacterial Bloom - This will disappear after a few weeks, you really don't have to do anything, maybe big water change. If it doesn't go away by than it's probably number 2. I believe bacterial blooms are caused by decaying plants, overfeeding, etc.

2. Algae Bloom - This is what I had. It will look white at first, seems to get worse during the day and eventually it will take on a greenish tint. I tried almost everything even "dancing around the tank" must see my thread for the full story, including the part with the willow branches. You could clear it with a blackout, diatom filter, or a few products like Seachem Clarity or Hagen P-Clear. I ended up using P-Clear and at first it did clear it. These product clump the bloom so it's big enough for your mechanical filter to grab it, but after the water cleared it did come back a few times. I used the product about 4 times and it eventually cleared for good, but I'm not sure if it's because of the product or because my plant mass got big enough to beat back the algae bloom. The willow branches are a long story, but if you add a bunch of weeds (you know Wisteria) and let them float especially that should help.

3. Since you are running diy co2 I had to mention this, but it's probably not the root of your cloudy water. The yeast mix could have gotten into the tank and started a reaction. This happened to me once when I was running two 1.9 litre bottles into my old 46. When I woke up their was a billowly cloud in my tank and the fish were gasping. The tank smelled like beer. My tank bascially became a co2 bottle. Very ugly, total breakdown of tank to clear it. I think this happened because I didn't have my bottles below the tank, but next to it.



My Scapes

but it appears to me that as soon as algae strands reach a measurable size the Otos are not going to eat it anymore

Well that's the thing, it's not strands, it's just green algae covering certain pieces of gravel... the BN should be feasting on this stuff but he/ shes nowhere to be found. Wait, scratch that, i know exactly where it is - hiding in the DW, like always... lazy mooching BN... ]:|

As for the water, thanks for the summary tetra. I did go back and look some things over... bensaf said green water was a result of ammonia and too much light, but I know I don't have either. I have a diatom filter and it works well for a while, but I know from experience the GW always comes back. last time I fixed it by dropping some hornwort in, which is what I just did yesterday, so we'll see what happens in a few days. Hopefully my other plants will continue to grow in and fight back the uni-cell algae.

I don't know how it could be a bacteria bloom either, it's pretty much a brand new tank, there's nothing to decay yet, except for some old growth on the tenellus.

And no more DIY CO2, btw. Sat. i got my tank refilled and all is well, I have the CO2 pushing pretty hard, but Im thinking of upping it into the 30s (right now it's in the low 20s, fish showing no signs of stress)

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lazy mooching BN
I never realized truly what kind of mess BN's make in a tank until I moved one out of my 72 and into my 12 with a sand bottom. I couldn't see the mess on my eco but on the sand it was unbelievable that one fish could poop that much. They are just constantly ingesting wood and food on it. That's really their mean thing and not the algae on glass, plants, etc. If you take out the DW they will do a better job because it's the next best thing. I have since moved my BN out of my 12 because of the mess and because it was pushing sand all over my javamoss, so now he resides in a 10g with some guppies, wcmf, ramshorn snail and a fire-bellied newt.

Is the water getting cloudier in the evening that's usually a sign that it's GW. My tank seemed to look it's clearest in the morning and got worse as the day progressed.



Last edited by tetratech at 22-Nov-2005 14:40

My Scapes

tetratech's BN




No other comment

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

BN in a ten gallon, eh? :cratches chin, light bulb over head goes from "off" to "on"::

Would you say that's a permanent spot for him, or are you just keeping him there temporarily? I'm seriously considering finding an LFS to try to take mine.

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 22-Nov-2005 15:15

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Gosh, I'm so glad I read this. I've been considering getting a BN for my 15g to take care of the occasional diatoms on the glass. After reading tetra's experience I'm glad I haven't (I have a sand bottom too). I'm going to hunt for a couple of otos this weekend.

Nowherman6 - otos should immediately take care of those soft green algae - they love that stuff! I bought some anubias at an auction over the weekend whose leaves were covered with soft green algae (not green spot). Within a couple of hours after putting it in my tank with 2 otos, the algae was completely gone!

-P

BN in a ten gallon, eh? :cratches chin, light bulb over head goes from "off" to "on"::

Well he was 'bout 2" when I got him, he's probably about 4.5 now. The ten has a series of rocks forming a cave that extend out of the water for the newt. He has been hanging out in one cave upside down since I got him. The tank is near a window and get's lots of algae, so I thing he's pretty happy. I just ran out of options, he might end up back at the LFS like you said. I still have an albino BN in my 72 as well.

upikabu,
As you could see I think you will regret it if you put a BN in that tank and it makes your nice sand look like "crap" literally.


My Scapes

Yeah, I think my BN is going to have to go. The more I get into the plantedness of the tank, the more I want gentler fish that don't hide in caves all day and uproot my rotala

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Finally back from the holiday - and work - with some bad news to report. I think I'll let the pictures do the talking...

Imagine coming home to this:





Now, Ive basically just been trying to ignore the green water, I've been adding ferts as normal trying to increase plant mass... but as you can see the green has definetely gotten worse. I may have to diatom it soon if it doesnt improve...

However, I must say, plant growth looks phenomenal once you get past the green water. The luwigia is showing fantastic color and has really taken off in growth, and the rotala is starting to grow in really well, as with the wisteria. The tenellus is sprouting new shoots every day. I'm sure I have a really nice tank, pity I can't see it [/font][/font]

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However, I must say, plant growth looks phenomenal once you get past the green water. The luwigia is showing fantastic color and has really taken off in growth, and the rotala is starting to grow in really well, as with the wisteria. The tenellus is sprouting new shoots every day. I'm sure I have a really nice tank, pity I can't see it
We'll take your word for it, since we can't see anything.
That is similiar to what happened to me. Great plant growth, but water started to get cloudly. Don't bother with extra water changes it will not do a thing. Curious did you ever start using carbon, I don't remember. I did cut back on ferts and starting to increase plant mass. I still feel the lack of carbon and a good biofilter from the getgo is the genesis of the GW. I don't know if the ferts than feed it.

Increase plant mass and you could try P-Clear or Seachem's Clarifty if you want to use a particulate (clumps the GW so your mechanical filter can grab it) This will clear it but it will come back if you don't change something else or plant mass increases.

BTW - If you use the particulate once it clears, clean out your filter media because it will be green with the GW and then I would add the Purigen to the filter media. The Purigen might make it harder for the GW to get established again.

Last edited by tetratech at 28-Nov-2005 09:24

My Scapes

Wow NowherMan6,

I didn’t know if I should or when I saw the pictures.

Green water is to my knowledge not dangerous to plants and fish, as long as there is enough oxygen in the water for the fish to breath. Actually, if you had fry they would love the soup as it is an excellent food source. Plants seem to show almost no negative effect in growth either.

tetratech is the Green Water Specialist (not wizard, not god ) and his advice is as good as it gets .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Please, by all means all you want, I do. Over the couse of the past few weeks it was basically:

- "hmm, looks a little brownish or cloudy. meh, it's just the laterite"

then, "hmm, still cloudy, more whitish now. nothing to worry about... I can't see green though. nope, definetely no green. can you see green? I can't see green... "

then finally after being away a few days and seeing the pea soup, "d*mmit, that's green water..."

I'll do some research on purigen. Right now it looks like a good diatoming is in the works, just so I can see things again. Ferts will continue as normal, full speed ahead!

Is there any utility to cutting back on my lighting? Right now it's going 11 hrs... would 10 be better? And also, I've been testing for ammonia over and over but can't get any to register... I guess it's in very small ammounts so it's not showing up... but it's there in large enough quantities to start this bloom ]:|

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Looked up Purigen:

"A macro-porous, synthetic polymer that removes proteins, nitrite and nitrate, ammonia, and a broad spectrum of organics at a rate and capacity that exceeds all others by over 500%. It significantly raises redox and polishes water clarity."

Ummm, isn't that not so great for planted tanks...?

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 29-Nov-2005 14:27

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uh,

Wait until you hear tetratech's explanation.

Upfront - it will be ok

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

"A macro-porous, synthetic polymer that removes proteins, nitrite and nitrate, ammonia, and a broad spectrum of organics at a rate and capacity that exceeds all others by over 500%. It significantly raises redox and polishes water clarity."

Nowher

Read it again, Nowher

"Purigen Controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds. Purigen's impact on trace elements is minimal"
What this is saying is it doesn't directly remove nitrate but will remove waste that will eventually turn into nitrate, So if your adding no3 directly it will not remove it. It will help control waste that eventually will release nh3 that will feed the bloom.

Are we there, nowher........



My Scapes

OK, I can vouch for Purigen not removing nitrate in planted tanks (at least not to the detriment of the plants vs. nitrate-sucking plants like Anacharis/Elodea), even if you don't add nitrate in. I use Purigen in my fully stocked tank, and when I had Anacharis the nitrate level never goes above 5ppm. Once I took the Anacharis out, the nitrate level shot up to 20ppm in a week (with the Purigen still in there and just normal feeding).

On the other hand, it also didn't have any effect when I had a cloudy water issue. Although I'm pretty sure that was from a bacterial bloom (it finally went away after I added a bacterial starter), not green water like you have. BTW, you've probably seen this article on green water already, but just in case. Hope the green goes away soon!

-P

Read it again, Nowher

Ahhhh, I seeeeeee. I was hasty in my reading and missed something important. Oh the foolishness of youth!






up. - thanks for the encouragement. I've beaten GW before and I know I can do it again. Now if only i can get out of work in time to come home when my tank lights are on so i can see what's going on in the tanks ]:|

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GW update:

Ran the diatom last night and I experienced something I never have experienced before. It didn't work.

Started it up as normal and ran it for 45 mins. Tank showed some moderate clearing, but then the filter clogged. Took it apart, cleaned it, turned it on again for another 45 mins. Clogged again, this time without making so much as a dent. I've never seen something like this before. usually it works like a charm in an hour. Maybe I'll try again tonight or something. This has got me seriously p*ssed ]:|


I'm going away for the weekend so I'm going to do a blackout and then start with the purigen afterwards if I can find it. Unbelievable.

The only plants I can see are the tenellus, and they're doing very well - new leaves growing out of the old plants, runners growing like crazy, old emmersed leaves dying off. I can also kind of see that the ludwigia is growing out of control. I can't wait to get in there and prune, if only I could find my way around in there ]:|

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NowherMan6,

Not being an expert on diatom filters, so how do you clean them?

Can it be that the diatoms are so stuffed that they cannot be cleaned anymore?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Willow branches anyone? If you don't have them in Jersey I'll sell them to you cheap.

I know how frustating that is Nowher. I actually started to see alittle cloudiness in my tank after messing around with it. It seems I have a very fine line, between clear and cloudy. The purigen I look at as just another feather in your cap. Should help. It won't help clear the current bloom, but if your water is clear it should help with waste that would create another one.

I've actually decided to purchase a UV sterilizer. More in my thread.

My Scapes

Not being an expert on diatom filters, so how do you clean them?

Diatom filters work by basically keeping diatom powder stuck to the surface of an extremely fine mesh bag. The diatom powder is so fine nothing but water passes through. However, as you guessed, if the GW is bad enough it will eventually clog and stop working properly. To unclog it you flush the whole system out with water, then add another dose of clean diatom powder and start over again. I just can't believe that doing this twice didn't help.


tetra, I'll take the willow branches if you promise to throw a bag of fairy dust in with them... then you've got yourself a deal!

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NowherMan6,

Yeah, I guess I wasn’t to clear (or you weren’t) as I actually assumed you “cleaned” the diatoms. But I agree that replacing the batch with a new one should have helped.

BTW, if I am not mistaken, what you describe as diatom power are actually skeletons. Did you know that?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

It's bascially the same stuff they use to clean pools. Many people of DE filters. It stands for Diatomeous Earth which is actually microscopic skeletons of Diatoms. I think the earth is actually microsopic sponges that trap dirt in a size so small you can't see it.

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Well the black out is over. Results? See for yourself below. I've done blackouts before but none were even close to being as hard on my tank as this one.

The first thing I noticed when looking at my fish was that one of the harleys was showing SERIOUS signs of dropsy. Pine-coning, bloated.... i felt so bad, I put her down right away, there was no point trying to treat her, she was so far gone... The other harleys look alright, no outward signs of stress... the loaches are a little schitzo, but I guess that's par for the course with them. I have no idea what the disease that caused the dropsy is... would it be a good idea to use some sort of general treatment? If so, what should I use? Ive never really had to medicate something like this before.

The other thing was that my tenellus pretty much melted and my ludwigia repens decided to shed alllll of its leaves, leaving 20 inch tall bare stalks. I had to cut them and replant everything but the bacopa, basically undoing the past few weeks growth. ]:|]:|

Here's the before pic, before WC and trimming:



Here's some of the melted tenellus:



Some bare stems:



A carpet of shed ludwigia leaves:



Some harleys in memory of the lost little gal :



And finally, here's the after pic, basically looking like it did in the first week...



I'm kind of unsure how to approach fertilizers at this point. I lost a fair amount of plant mass, is it a good idea to dose again, at the same levels or less?

Stupid green water ]:| wish I had a UV sterilizer...[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]

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How does a UV sterilizer clear up green water? Isn't it algae and doesn't it need UV to survive? I thought the sterilizers were for killing off bad bacterias and parasites. And GW was caused by too much light and the wrong amounts of certain ferts? Obviously there will always be some algae in a planted tank, otherwise the plants couldn't survive. Are you possibly overlighting your tank and causing the algae to bloom like crazy? Sorry if I'm way off base, but I have been trying to figure all this out and Bensaf seems to make sense that it isn't necessarily the ferts causing the GW. All I really can say is the low-light tanks don't seem to have as many problems with algae bloom as the high-light tanks. How long are the lights on for? Mine are now on 12 hr timers and even that produces some algae but not the GW. Again sorry but I'm as confused as everyone.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

NowhereMan,

Sorry to hear about your plants' reaction to the blackout and your Harley.
I've had 2 neon rainbows come down with dropsy suddenly in the last 6 months (a few months apart) and I have no idea what caused it or how to treat it. I lost both once I moved them to my hospital tank and tried some medication.

Since your plant mass has now been reduced by quite a bit, I would personally hold off on the ferts, at least not to the same extent as before. IME plants need some time to establish themselves in the beginning or after major pruning exercises. I usually add half the normal amount of ferts after major pruning and wait a few days to a week until I start to see actual growth on the plants. Then again I don't add external CO2 to my tanks (only Excel to some) and they're all low lights (<2wpg), so YMMV. Just my two cents.

Hey at least the GW is gone right?

-P

Plants don't look that bad, wasn't some that tellenous growth the original emerged growth that would have fallen off anyway. Great shot of the Harleys!



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NowherMan6,

I am with you on the removal of any fish that shows serious signs of dropsy, I had to do just that in my 29G with a Platy about 3 days ago. As sad as it is, waiting around and guessing the cause will not help the fish and potentially spread any disease to others.

Your plants look a little sad, but I am sure they will recover just fine. You most likely will have to cut the still good looking tops of the Ludwigia and replant them, disposing of the leafless bottoms. But maybe you would like to hold off for a while, it could be that new branches will come out at the points where the leaves used to be.

Otherwise, the water looks nice and clear, the remaining Harlies look good . Now let’s just hope that the green devil will not return.

Ingo

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luvmykrib - I found this on a website re: UV sterilizers:

"It's actually a very simple process using ultra violet (UV) light for rendering sterile unwanted free floating bacteria, algae and parasitic organisms, like ich. The UV Sterilizer light affects the living cells by altering the structure of the cell's nuclear material. The end result is the organisms fail to reproduce, eradicating your aquarium or pond water of these unwanted nuisances"

It basically kills off any free floating single celled organisms that float through the UV chamber.

upikabu - thanks for the advice on the ferts and sorry to hear about your rainbows.

dropsy is a new one to me. from what i've read it's not a disease itself, it's just what we call the symptoms of an unknown bacterial or viral infection. That little harley was so pathetic looking, i couldn't stand just letting her waddle-swim along like that

I still don't know if it's a good idea to treat the tank just in case... I'll ask around in The Hospital forum, see what the experts have to say...

tetra - you're right about the tenellus and the old emersed leaves, and for the most part all of those are gone. But there was new growth coming on on those plants, and some of it turned clear and mushy... other new leaves turned brown. While the green water was booming they were putting out runenrs like crazy, but they turned brown, had to remove them too. :igh:: back to the drawing board.

But maybe you would like to hold off for a while, it could be that new branches will come out at the points where the leaves used to be.

Well this is certainly what I'm hoping for. I'll give it time though. They've been without light or CO2 for several days, I'll see where they are after the weekend.

I think I'm going to have to order new plants though, because I had to throw out so many of the dead stems. I don't have nearly as much of the ludwidia or rotala as when i started... I smell a replant on the horizon

And as for the green devil, well, as tetra can testify, the green devil never really goes. Even now I can see a slight tint in the water still, even after the blackout. I'm going to use some purigen in the filter to see if I can knock out any ammonia traces and hopefully beat this thing back before it starts. CHARGE!!! ]:|



edit: oh, and that harley pic was taken with... you guessed it... the 90/2.8 macro

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 08-Dec-2005 09:08

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to further discuss the UV issue, UVB light particularly resonates with thymine, exciting the bonds in the nucleic acid and causing it to entirely dissociate. as such it opens holes in the double stranded DNA strand which can then be be replaced with another nucleic acid, or cause a frameshift mutation.

UVB isn't good for any organism.

Last edited by Megil Tel'Zeke at 08-Dec-2005 09:21

Wow, great explanation Megil... that's very helpful.


So what you're saying is, if I ran down a hallway that was lined with big UV lights, I'd die too, right?

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if I ran down a hallway that was lined with big UV lights, I'd die too, right

And why would you want to do that

Your plant situation is not even remotely that bad that you would have to end your life .

Getting new plants is always a great idea, I love to mess with plants, add more, move them, remove them again, and so forth. But - be warned - it might be a cause of GW as substrate matter gets into the water column.

Ingo

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GW as substrate matter gets into the water column
Yes, I believe that to be very true, especially if you don't have the plant mass to suck it right up. If the UV will prevent GW or get rid of it quickly after I mess with the tank it's worth the $75 bucks, the value-add here is if it prevents disease in the fish as well.



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Agreed.. but then where does that leave one in terms of planting a tank? We all like to change our setups around every now and then. Hell, LF does it every two weeks How do certain people avoid green water when they uproot and replant? it's not as if you can gravel vac right down on the roots of the plants to suck up all that bio-matter...

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When you stir up all that gravel, what's getting into the water column, nh3, other waste, etc. So the light, combining with an imbalance of nh3 that is now in the water column and not the substrate. This then causes algae or GW. Definitely makes sense more what Bensaf always says. The amount of plant mass and/or growth plus the amount of waste stirred up will probably determine how bad the algae is. When we move things around the water always get's alittle cloudy, but it ususally clears up. But with alot of light, etc, the algae will grow.

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I recently pulled out the remains of the UGF and released all kinds of matter into the water column and didn't get GW, So it may not be the floaties caused by replanting but the fact that nutrients aren't being used as quickly after a replant. The plants go into root producing mode and use much less of the ferts. This can take a long time for some plants and be quicker for others. I think adjusting the fert level down after replanting then gradually incresing when growth resumes may be the key. I still have never had a GW outbreak and I rearrange fairly often. I also don't use the same amounts of ferts because of my low-light.
Just an idea and one I think I've seen before.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

still have never had a GW outbreak and I rearrange fairly often. I also don't use the same amounts of ferts because of my low-light.
That's not much debate with light, the intensity of light has a huge influence on algae growth. In lowlight tanks you will have far fewer if any real algae issues.

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How do certain people avoid green water when they uproot and replant

Simple. You should do a decent water change after every major uproot and replant. Ideally you should do this type of work before your normal weekly 50% water change.

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You should do a decent water change after every major uproot and replant

Didn't think about that specifically, but that is naturally what I do. Every one of my replants (and not every 2 weeks – more like every week ) was followed by either the normal weekly water change or a special occasion water change. Except maybe for one time when it was too late at night, but I didn’t get green water then either.

Ingo

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You should do a decent water change after every major uproot and replant. Ideally you should do this type of work before your normal weekly 50% water change.

Ohhhh. This explains a lot. usually when i uproot and replant I've taken about 25% or so out BEFORE the uproot. To me it's easier to do that kind of work when there's less water in the tank.


Next time I think I'll try the method that... ya know... makes sense...

Thanks


Fish look good today, so do the plants. Got some great shots of the harleys... man I love my new DSLR


Oh yeah, I got a new camrea by the way. No LF style guessing games, just wanted to shout it out

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Got some great shots of the harleys

And where are these pictures that you speak of?

Man, I guess I cannot keep up with the speed with which you get new stuff.

Ingo

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the speed with which you get new stuff.

Que?

hey, I waited over a year to get this camera, it finally came down enough in price for me to justify to myself buying it. All my nice SLR lenses were sitting until I took them out every now and then to prevent them from collecting dust. And now I can use them again. Hoorah!

And my other major recent purchase thus far has been a glass diffuser because, well -

1.) i made a lot of overtime the past few weeks
2.) i'm young and i don't have a mortgage, so i can spend money on such things
3.) that big reactor is taking up alotta space in my little 46 gallon tank and it would look purdy (and also works well, apparently.. not that that matters all that much )

I forgot to put the pics on photobucket this morning before work, too busy looking at the snow and cursing to myself that I still had to go into work ]:|

All that aside, they were basically of my big male and my big female. They're both over a year old now, so I'm thinking of setting up a little breeding set-up for them.

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Nowher you seem to know something about cameras. I have a Canon S2 IS. It does have the ability to change lenses. How would you classify that camera. Main reason I bought it was the combination of 12x Optical Zoom and image stablizer, but I don't think it's an SLR.

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hey tetra,

From what i've read, great camera but not an SLR. SLR means single lens reflex - the designation (as far as I know - please someone correct me if I'm wrong) has to do with the mechanics of the camera. Light goes through a lens and is reflected onto a mirror, which reflects up through a prism, which then reflects into an eyepiece. When we take a picture the mirror flips up, the shutter opens and exposes the light to a film plane or a digital image sensor.

The S2 and cameras like it dont use mirrors and other such mechanical parts; that's why digicams are nearly silent. In a few years electronic viewfinders and whatnot will become detailed and smooth enough to replace all this mirror/ mechanical business and the traditional SLR will probably become obsolete.

I remember when the S2 came out, it was a pretty big deal. IS is a fantastic feature to have.

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NowherMan6,

If it is of any help, I had to go to work today as well .

I am simply too busy to afford a day off (although I really would like one).

I really have to start to take more pictures, I haven't added any to my thread in at least 2 days .

Ingo

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Nowher,

So do you know what the major drawback is in my camera vs one that is an SLR? I know I can change lenses, it has a macro and super macro mode. Also I believe a polarizing type filter is benefical when taking pictures through glass, water, etc.

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So do you know what the major drawback is in my camera vs one that is an SLR? I know I can change lenses, it has a macro and super macro mode. Also I believe a polarizing type filter is benefical when taking pictures through glass, water, etc.

There were two deal breakers for me. (BTW, I have a KM A200, a camera similar to yours - have had it a year, couldn't get used to it)

1.) Autofocus - AF is slower and less precise on digicams, I've found. In daylight conditions this usually isnt a problem, but in lower light situations - like taking tank pics - I've foudn ti very prohibitive. When your fish are darting across the tank it's much easier to focus quickly on one with an SLR than with a digicam. The same can be said for kids running across a yard, or any other moving subject situation. In those cases it needs to be pretty quick and accurate, plus you can confirm it with your own eye rather than just trust the computer.

2.) ISO quality - This is related to the size of the camera's image sensor. Digicams use smaller sensors than DSLRs. That means there are mor emegapixels packed into a smaller space - the result is very "noisy" images at high ISO settings. You can try this out yourself - set your camrea on the hgihest ISO setting possible - what is it, ISO 800? Then take a picture of something black, e.g. bring up a black webpage with a little bit of color on it for contrast on the comp and take a picture of the screen. Zoom in a little bit and you'll notice that the image looks quite grainy. On a DSLR it would appear smooth and normal. The pics on page 5 were taken at at least ISO 800, maybe 1600 and there's no noticable difference. i tried to do the same with my A200 and the results were pretty unusable.

this is important to me because higher ISO values allow you to use faster shutter speeds in low light conditions without having to use flash. The faster the shutter speed the better you're able to freeze action and avoid motion blur in pictures.


All that said i think there are advantages to digicams. There are no real mechanical parts, so they allow incredibly quick series of pictures to be taken silently. Taking 10 frames per second is something my A200 can do, but to get that feature on a DSLR you'd pay through the nose. I don't think I've even seen that high yet...

So yeah, there are other things about SLRs that I PREFER, but those are the two big things that seal the deal for me. They're just overall more flexible IMO.

edit: LF. yeah I just noticed that. There's too much talk going on in your thread, break it up a little

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 09-Dec-2005 12:27

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Thanks Nowher, well said!

Your right about the ISO setting, even if I go to 400 I know that pic looks grainy and it's almost impossible to capture moving tank images with the slower speed.

The one thing I've noticed that helps is if you put alot of light on the tank. It's a pain, but if you move strong light right above the tank and behind it, you can shot in faster shutter speeds without the tank looking dark.

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The one thing I've noticed that helps is if you put alot of light on the tank. It's a pain, but if you move strong light right above the tank and behind it, you can shot in faster shutter speeds without the tank looking dark.

Yep, i've done this before too. It beats using flash IMO though I haven't tried out using wireless flash on the tank yet, maybe I'll give it a try this weekend.

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Nowher,

You know anything about a filter to make the pics clearer in macro setting? Sorry to be off topic a bit, but the photograpy is definitely related to the tank.

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Hmmm...

would you be able to post a pic of an example you'd like to make clearer? And what do you mean by "clearer"? Do they look out of focus?

In general I find pictures look a bit sharper and clearer when i underexpose the shot just a bit, maybe by a third, no more than one full stop.

I've noticed that a number of my macro tank shots look slightly out of focus sometimes. I have no way of proving this, but I really feel like it has something to do with the bend of the glass on the bow front, it somehow distorts things, or throws the camera off. I notice that I get much better shots from the side. I never did a full side by side comparison, it'd be interesting to see though.

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Nowher,
I don't have a specific picture, but sometimes in macro setting I guess there's not enough light to get the image in focus. The S2 even has a supermacro, but again let is a big issue.

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