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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks, LF. Growth is coming along nicely after a little hitch. The wisteria leaves and HUGE and lush.

The plant you mention that's floating the Pennywort. The gourami love it, hanging out under the leaves and nibbling on the hanging roots. I'm goign to try to keep it on the opposite side from where it is now, it makes the right side look messy. A floating lily pad type effect would be nice on the open left side.

As for the equipment, let me say this: I'm one of those people who always roots for the wrong people in the movies (I was pro-Jack Nicholson alll the way in "A Few Good Men", for example) thus, I always learn the wrong lesson from a situation. The lesson i learned from your comments and picture isn't to move them so they're less visiable - now I'm just going to photoshop them out of all subsequent update pics so that you and tetra don't complain Everybody wins!

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Back in the saddle!

Nice growth, but we really have to work on that GREEN filter intake and the oh-so-visible BLUE CO2 tubing

Nowher has no interest in coming to the darkside.
I don't understand why they make that co2 tubing in that green color and eheim purposely makes the intake in that color so you buy the super deluxe intake kit that you bought LF.



My Scapes

Seriously, I'll think about moving the intake to the other side. my major concern is that this will create a huge dead zone on the other side as there will be NO movement whatsoever over there down low.

As for the tubing, i've seen black stealth tubing but I don't know if it's CO2 proof. If anyone can confirm this for me I'll be the first to go for it.

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Back in the saddle!

Nowher,

BTW - Tank looks great. It's on it's way to being a real beauty.

I'm actually using you basic "Lee's Black Stealth tubing" with my diffusor right now. You could probably see it in my diffusor pic. It seems to be fine. It will probably breakdown over time. Right now I have a wall of tiny bubbles coming out so I'm not concerned.



My Scapes

super deluxe intake kit that you bought LF

Actually, I didn't buy any extra kit. I ordered my Eheim from Big Al's and they had a special on a complete setup with extra media and the new filter kits (intake and spraybar). All together was barely more expensive that a plain filter on most other sites.

NowherMan6 - the one thing I see is that your driftwood will very soon be consumed by your plants and become invisible in the tank (maybe except for that one branch that sticks out towards the front). Anyone else sees that?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes, I noticed this as well. It seems to me more and more that the java moss has to go, which is a shame because it's starting to come in a lot better now. If the branch was bare it would contrast much more with the plants and thus would be more noticable. The moss makes it blend in too much, especially when viewed from the front. The HM covering the base of the branch, if you remember, will be trimmed to keep it at about the same height it is now, so most of the branch will be exposed. Good comment though, LF

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Back in the saddle!

I bet you could play around with the wood alittle so there is enough of a clear spot between the plants and the moss to make it work, especially toward the left end of the tank where the plant mass is less.

My Scapes

Just one thing to report now, and I started a thread about it in the hospital forum. if anyone has any ideas, let me know. Basically one of my sparkling gourami has developed this lump on the right side. Pics below:







More info in the Hospital thread, so if anyone has ideas feel free to let me know. Thanks

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Wow,

This is quite a big lump.

I will check the Hospital Thread, but probably can't say anything that would help (sorry).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yeah, so far the only thing said is that it could be cancer - which begs the question, should I just put it down?

The wild card in all this is that I have the UV running, so how could it couldn't have been anything free-floating that caused it. That means it came in with the fish, but I didn't notice anything wrong with any when i got them, and they had been at the store for a few weeks under observation.

I'm very confused

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Back in the saddle!

I would think it's bacterial, but the strings throw me off.
Sorry to hear about your fish, but it brings up a question. With a UV running is there any advantage to a quarantine tank.



My Scapes

Sorry to hear about your fish, but it brings up a question. With a UV running is there any advantage to a quarantine tank.

I would think so, for two main reasons:

1.) if the fish dies when I'm not there, whatever parasites/ bacteria could be passed along if the other fish eat the body

2.) any parasites in the fish's droppings could still be "mouthed" and spat back out by the loaches, still transferring the nasties to the fish.

I guess I'll set up a little Q tank. I just wish i knew if it was bacterial/ parasitic. The white thing hanging out of the fish is droppings, it fell off yesterday. White stringy droppings usually mean parasites, but it could just be from any infection. I've been treating with Metro. in case it is parasites, I've never had a problem with metro. affecting other fish negatively. I don't want to just start dosing anything though...

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NowherMan6,

As harsh as it sounds, I am not in the mood anymore to care for severly sick fish. I went through too many worries over my Neons that eventually died anyway. If I see one of my fish having dropsy (happened to some Platies a while back) or beginning to separate from the group and becoming pale (the Neons) then it is Good-Bye.

Your situation is a little different as your Gouramie is, based on your description, active and feeds well. If nodody soon suggests some fail safe treatment (or at least a 100% ID), then you may want to consider going my way.

Sorry,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

As harsh as it sounds, I am not in the mood anymore to care for severly sick fish. I went through too many worries over my Neons that eventually died anyway

Yep, I'm in the same state of mind, although a gourmai is more substantial (from a treating standpoint) than a neon, but I do agree with LF. If I may quote a famous line "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few ".

My Scapes

No, believe me, I'm in your camp, and I appreciate the advice. Right now the gourami isn't hurting anyone else in the tank, and is definetely still feeding/ alert etc. I think the situation deserves at least a few more days of observation and treatment. My biggest concern is that it could be fish TB

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Back in the saddle!

Looks like an ulcer or tumor of some sort. Lost a Blue Gourami to something similar a while back. It started like that and eventually burst and turned into an open sore.

I had to put the fish down, had her over a year and was my favorite fish at the time But never found a way to treat it and she looked really miserable.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Nowhere,

One of my sparkling gourami had a similar lump, except it was more centered, right below the gills. He was eating and acting normally otherwise as yours did for a few days, then he was isolating himself more and more before I found him dead one morning. I didn't treat him with anything though (I don't have access to internal medicines). I hope in your case the Metro works. Also, I'm not sure if quarantining will do any good, because if it's internal parasite (which I suspect it is), then it's probably already in the other fishes in the tank. Sad to say, but I've never had a sparkling gourami that last more than a couple of months. All died similarly: fine one day, then suddenly isolating itself/not eating before expiring. The frustrating thing was that I don't think I could've done anything different to prevent the deaths.

Anyways, sorry I didn't mean to be overly pessimistic. Best of luck with yours!


-P

Thanks bensaf and upikabu. I guess things don't look too good for my little sparkling gourami

upikabu, it's funny you mention that yours went into hiding more and more, because last night I noticed mine was always the last to come out of the plant mass at feeding time, and the first to go back in, seems it's isolating itself a little bit.

Also tried feeding it junglemeds anti-bacterial food. They went after it at first but snubbed it later. Sigh. Spoiled picky fish

I'll see how she looks after the weekend, if it gets worse or no improvement then, well... gourami heaven.

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

What's the word on the Gouramie?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey LF,

I actually just put her down this morning

She didn't respond to any meds, metro., melafix etc. The bulg got bigger and was opening up a sore on her right side. Don't know how to explain it but she just looked unhappy and disoriented. Didn't come a beg at the front glass during feeding, just hung out on top by herself. She looked uncomfortable so I just put her out of her misery. RIP little gourami.

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RIP,

You did well, NowherMan6

As sad as it is, if nothing helps then this is the way to go.

Still sorry though,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks LF, the others seem to be OK for now, by the way.


Anyway, time for another pic update, it's been over a week. Did some trimming of the rotala and the wisteria, little bit of the bacopa. It's still working its way towards a shape right now. The only thing I haven't touched yet is the HM. It's taller than I want it to be right now, but Im waiting juuuust a bit longer before trimming and replanting the tops. The tops will be used to fill out the left side, behind the DW and rocks.

Another tank problem ahs come up, see this thread. Any ideas?

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Back in the saddle!

Well, another pic series. Here we see a form of nasty algae that has started taking over. Is this hair algae or staghorn? I know I have plenty of NO3 in the tank, as well as detectable ammonia. Actually, the reason I checked for ammonia was that this stuff started to grow wild... and we know KNO3 doesn't cause algae... CO2 is also quite high. I have been adding some Flourish iron once a week, just a bit though. Does excess iron cause this stuff?





And finally, a shot of the one fish I've never shown before. Yes, that's right - the elusive BN. For some reason he came out yesterday evening, as usual, only cleaning his piece of DW and not touching the rest of the tank. Lousy mooching BN...

Anyway, I always wondered if anyone could give me a definitive yes or no on whether this is a male or female. I know females sometimes have bristles, and even though he is well over a year old - I imagine more like 2, he was big when I got him - his bristles seem small for a male, no branching like you normally see with males. Any input aprpeciated

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NowherMan6,

Looks like Staghorn to me. Hair usually does not branch within the thread and this one seems to do that.

I guess it could be caused by the Ammonia (most likely) and maybe by the Iron. I found all the previous discussion about Iron levels rather vague and non-convincing . While all agree that some raised level would most likely not be bad, nobody seemed to have had a clear idea of how much is safe and what happens after that point is crossed. Plus a reliable and affordable Iron Kit does not seem to exist.

Bristlenose, know nothing about them.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

They should rename these fish from BN to BM

My Scapes

All this is making me realize that I wish I had stocked my tank differently when starting out. I guess I didn't realize how strong the pull of a planted tank would be, as that's the part that comes first now, rather than the fish if I had known I certainly wouldn't have gone after such large waste producing fish such as the yo-yos and BN. Ah well, live and learn I suppose.

LF, you're right about the iron causing hair algae or staghorn, info is sketchy at best. Most of th einfo I've found usually goes something like this: Control your nutrients... as if that means anything to me now I do control my nutrients, thank you very much... lacking a better explanation I'll blame the ammonia, which seems to be climbing my you-know-what list by the month

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Back in the saddle!

All this is making me realize that I wish I had stocked my tank differently when starting out. I guess I didn't realize how strong the pull of a planted tank

Congrats! Your moving from Mega Fish to Mega Plant!

Most aquarists are into fish first and the plants are the support, but I for us (well for me) now the fish are the support. That's why in certain setups you will only see one big school of small fish because it looks better with that look. I did the same thing. When I started my old 46g planted I started buying al kinds of dwarf plecos and BNs. Then I put in hairgass and they ruined it. Look at Amano, he has little shrimp and little otos. I don't think you even see corys alot, if it all.

More mass and a stronger bio-filter. Add more eheim substrate to the filter if you can. Put in the Purigen if it's not in all ready and yes add more floaters and mass. I wouldn't dose EM to solve the problem. Do water changes twice a week for a while. When I started to get BGA in my 12g I added as much eheim substrate from 72g into my HOB filter on the 12g, keep shoving wisteria into the tank and did twice a week water changes for a while and the tank is completely clean of BGA and the only alage is alittle spot.

My Scapes

Nowher,
When we were discussing NH3 spikes in my log it made me think of something that might have caused your spike. I think you said you were treating BGA chemically. If it was successful and killed off your BGA. What do you think is released into the water from dead BGA? Yes that's correct, NH3, so even if the EM didn't kill your biofilter there might have been an NH3 spike from alot of dead BGA.

My Scapes

Dang, I didn't even see your first reply, tetra

I have indeed made the transformation to mega-plant. And I have been making plans to find a way to sell and ship my BN, and maybe even the loaches when it gets warmer. Sooo much poop, so little time to clean it all. The other day when I did a vac I lifted up the DW on the right and out came a ton of long green poops, obviously from the pleco. It's tough to manage in this kind of tank.

I think they're great fish, and would work well in a cichlid set-up with minimal substrate, or in a sparsely decorated tank with just enough hiding spots for the BN. But something so intricate as the tank as I want it to look is no good, there are too many little places I can't get to.

Add more eheim substrate to the filter if you can. Put in the Purigen if it's not in all ready and yes add more floaters and mass.

I will, I'm just afraid to open up the cannister at this point. Do they start up easily once they're stopped? And does it drain the water out of the tubes automatically when you stop it?

If it was successful and killed off your BGA. What do you think is released into the water from dead BGA? Yes that's correct, NH3, so even if the EM didn't kill your biofilter there might have been an NH3 spike from alot of dead BGA.

This is actually a good point, though I did do gravel vacs after I had killed it off. There were places I couldn't reach, however. For example, I know some of the BGA was growing under the substrate along the glass. It died off, but I was never able to cleanly remove it, so it's possible the decaying algae was giving off a reading. Good point

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Back in the saddle!

BN, major poop producers, You should see what a sand bottom tank looks like in a few hours. My BN is living in my kids guppy/newt tank and it's loaded with BGA and he seems really happy in there. BTW-Nowher I'm not trying to convience you to get rid of the guy, I happen to like them, but if it's making a problem for you the tank to me is more valuable than one fish. I got rid of mine because it was ruining the dwarf hairgrass I had at the time and I didn't see all the poop on my eco complete, but when he went in my 12g sand bottom I honestly couldn't believe it. If you think your tank could handle him then....

The ecco is really easy. Make sure you close the in and out valves from the tubes to the cansister or you get alot of water down there when you open up the valves. After cleaning etc, don't fill with water. Hook it back up open the valves and raise that big handle into the open position and slowly lock it close. I siphon effect should result and you should hear the canister filling up. Once filled just pluck it in. If it doesn't run smoothly, unplug an raise and lower the handle again to make sure it's completely filled.

BTW - Speaking of equipment maintenance, have you cleaned the ceramic diffusor yet?





My Scapes

No, believe me I know exactly what you're saying. I've been wanting to move him out for a while now, but I'm really goign to do it. The amoutn of poop is pushing me over the edge, and he just doesn't fit in with where I want the tank to be. Same with the loaches. So eventually they'll be moved.

BTW - Speaking of equipment maintenance, have you cleaned the ceramic diffusor yet?

Yes, three times actually. Every couple weeks, I cant remember how long I've had it. Every three weeks max.

First time I was cautious with the bleach and the cleaning wasn't as deep as I expected. There was still some green spot algae on it.

Second time I said the hell with it, and did it just like Bensaf said. I took a Poland Spring bottle and cut the top off, it was the perfect size to fit the diffuser. Filled it half way with pure bleach and the rest with warm water. Dropped it in, spent 15-20 mins working on trimming the tank etc. by the time I came back to it it was perfectly clean, no algae at all. Dumped out the contents of the bottle, used a cap and a half of Prime (1 capful treats 50 gallons BTW, so this is a LOT of dechlor ) and filled with warm water, let it soak another 20 mins. Rinsed it again in warm water, and by the time my water change and scaping was done it was ready to go back in. Easy as pie

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks for the info on the diffusor, somewho I missed the Bensaf info. Just to be clear, because I haven't checked are we talking about just the disc or did you drop the entire glass diffusor into the bleach solution.


My Scapes

The whole thing, just drop it right in and forget about it for a while. I find that I do get some algae buildup on various parts of it, so better to clean the whole thing.

I didn't even know you could pull the ceramic disk off of it...

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks nowher, gonna clean it tonite. I think some have said they removed the disc, but I think it depends on the diffusor. I'd rather not bother.



My Scapes

The disc can't be removed from the glass diffusers. The plastic Azoo types have removeable discs

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Just wanted to post another pic. LF has commented in the past - I think - that he likes the way the tank looks when only half filled with water. It pushed everything together, really giving it a jungle like effect. I very much agree. I took this pic during last nights WC and couldn't help thinking - if I had this kind of plant mass when the tank is full, maybe I wouldn't have any algae at all



Also, after the WC I witnessed a strange sight. I glanced at the tank and for a second i thought som ekind of monstrous parasitic sea slug had found its way into my tank because I saw this red, blue and brown thing wriggling in front of the plants. Upon closer inspection it was two of my sparkling gourami... um... doing 'it'

I couldn't get a pic, but they had their bodies wrapped around eachother, looked exactly the same as pics of bettas breeding. I was under the impression that the male would just make a bubble nest and the fem would deposit her eggs there, but aparrently not. I may post this in the Lab. forum and see what they say. Interesting sight, nevertheless.

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Back in the saddle!

Yeah,

The low water level is always a beautiful sight .

Makes one wonder if the conversion of our tanks into palladiums would be a great idea.

Yeah, what you describe sounds like "doing it". I also would have thought that they build nests. Did you see any eggs fall down? My Espei did this once (at least) and I saw eggs sinking down. But they have been eaten before they hit the ground .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Makes one wonder if the conversion of our tanks into palladiums would be a great idea.

Not even palladriums, maybe I'll think of switching to a 40 gallon breeder instead Much shallower, and deeper.

I didn't see any eggs drop. I see my rasboras do similar things but I thought it was fighting. I also see some of them rub their undersides on the bottom of leaves, but nothing ever drops. Interstingly, i read that sparkling gourami don't always build nests on the surface, but also build bubble nests on the underside of plant leaves. It's another thing to keep an eye out for.

I'm taking a wait and see approach with them. As in, wait and see if they do it again, then see what happens.

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Back in the saddle!

When they lay their eggs at the underside of leaves then you will not see anything drop down as the eggs are adhesive and will stick onto the leaf (at least for the Rasboras).

In that case, a good indicator that there are/were any eggs is when you see the fish come back (or others from the gang) and pick at the underside of that leaf. And you know what that means, a healthy snack .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

My two male pencilfish do that as well, but I don't think they are "doing it" They constantly battle for the center of the tank.

My Scapes

Well, I figure I'm not around enough to notice if they pick at the underside of the leaves. 3 hours a day, tops, is what I see of the tank.

Wow - it's pretty wild when I think of it that way. All that work and thinking and grinding and gnashing of teeth for 1-3 hours a day of viewing, mostly less on the weekends.

Tetra. No no, though. This was different. I've learned well the I'm the boss dance, as LF calls it. The males touch bodies but not like this. The gourmai weren't just gettin' busy - they were gettin busAY!

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Back in the saddle!

All that work and thinking and grinding and gnashing of teeth for 1-3 hours a day of viewing

You are right, I haven't even thought about it this way. I have maybe half an hour during weekdays to admire my beautiful tanks . But I have a little more time on weekends, in particular during the 2 hour maintenance routine for the 125G.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

they were gettin busAY!

Dirty. That's just wrong.



I like the jungle, and obviously the gouramies do to. Looks good.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Tank update: Awful news on the Fishy front.

So I came back from a long weekend away to find sveral of my fish dying and diseased. Two harleys were swimming very erratically and had patches of white fuzz on their backs and dorsal fins. Not covered, but patches. I took them out and put them down, they seemed beyond help. Then I saw my BN, and HE has the white patches on his head/ side area, but much bigger. I took him out and put him in a Q tank for treatment. Problem is I dont know what to treat with

Maracyn says it can be used to treat body fungus, but I recently used that in my tank and these white patches came about AFTER the treatment. A bunch of stuff has been going wrong these past few weeks, from fish deaths to algae outbreaks etc. I'm trying to pinpoint what coul dhave caused all this mess.

1.) Introduction of sparkling gourami: they coul dhave brought some nasties into my tank, but they had been under observation at the LFS for 2 weeks before I bought them and showed no signs of ailment

2.) New piece of DW: I cleaned it thoroughly with bleach, I doubt it's this.

3.) New food: switched over to feeding them NLS. Not sure but maybe the change of diet upset their immune systems?

Additionally, as you may know I have been getting ammonia readings recently. Not high, but there. I wonder if the ammonia presence is connected to any of the algae problems I've been having, or the fish health. I know ammonia is bad for them, but it's there in very very low levels. Wargh Any ideas?

I feel especially bad about the BN, because I had been preparing to sell him. I can't help but think I gave him some bad Fishy karma...

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Back in the saddle!

Sorry to hear about all the problems. My first reaction is:

1. What happened over the weekend. Was their a power outage, temp fluct, overfeeding, etc.?

2. Are you running the UV 24/7?

3. How are the plants. I know you have some algae, but are they growing fast, etc.



My Scapes

hey tetra,

1.) No, nothing happened over the weekend. Weather was very nice here, no storms to create a a blackout, no tell tale signs like blinking alarm clocks etc.

2.) Yes, the UV is running 24/7. I thought the UV was supposed to protect against something like this I remember reading an argument somewhere for leaving them on during lights on, but i forget what it was.

3.) Plants are doing OK. Not good, I've seen them much better. I can tell they're no doing their best because the wisteria is growing quite slow... for wisteria anyway. I've been dosing the same as normal. I experimented with slowing down N, but stopped and sped back up to normal. But they are growing pretty slow, not as fast as normal. That's the other issue I'm trying to work out, and I'm sure that's connected to the algae issue.

But in the mean time I'm trying to figure out how to stop my fish from dying...

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Back in the saddle!

Obviously no signs of too much co2, doesn't sound like it.
Are you running a stream or what's the bps count.
What are you treating with now.

The UV should deplete the pathogens in the water unless the flow rate thru the UV is too fast to do so. The pathogen kill requires a slower flow than the protist kill.

My Scapes

Well, as many have noted, I've had to lower my bps when i put in the glass diffuser. It's nowhere near a stream, maybe 1-2bps. No signs of classic CO2 stress, but that assumes white body patches are not a sign of too much CO2. No gasping etc.

As for treatment the only thing I've been dosing is melafix because I have no idea what else to use. Like I said, I've used Maracyn in this tank as per the package directions and it's supposed to treat things like body fungus, yet this appeared after that treatment and was used on all the fish presently in the tank. Wouldn't the disease causing bacteria/ fungus be killed durin gthe first treatment?

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Back in the saddle!

http://www.aquariumpharm.com/pimafix.html
Personally I would use pimafix with the melafix than you have your bases covered.

From what your describing it sounds like an infection from high nh3 or no3.

BTW - Many times when you treating with meds you end up getting a secondary infection. Oh you were treating the BGA with marayacan, right!





My Scapes

Yes, I treated the BGA with maracyn, not for the fish. They weren't even sick at the time.

So you think it's from high NO3 or ammonia? I'm having trouble understanding then. I know my NO3 isn't that high and has been at a fairly consistent level for quite a while now. What would make this stressful to them all of a sudden?

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Back in the saddle!

Yes, I treated the BGA with maracyn, not for the fish. They weren't even sick at the time

Anyone's quess, but the kill off of BGA could have raised nh3 levels in the tank and opened the door to a bacterial infection.

Fish disease is not my strong suit, so maybe other's will chime in. High NH3 can bring out infections in fish.



My Scapes

Sorry to hear about your fish, Nowhere.

I definitely don't think it's the food switch (especially to NLS, which is supposedly the "best" food out there). My guess is the ammonia level. Is it possible for the maracyn to kill enough good bacteria for the NH3 to be detectable? Did you notice the ammonia not long after you added maracyn?

It might be worth creating a thread in the Hospital forum. Someone with more experience with diseases can probably help better. Good luck!

-P

2.) New piece of DW: I cleaned it thoroughly with bleach, I doubt it's this.

Could it maybe be this? Maybe your driftwood has soaked up a lot of bleech during the cleaning process and is now leeching it back into the water? I'm not a fan of using anykind of bleech treatment of things that I am going to use in my tank. Considering that the normal usage of bleech is to kill off any bacteria in your toilet, I do not want anything like it in my tank. Rocks might be alright to clean with it but wood... I'm not saying that this is your definate problem, but the sodium hypochlorite would be on my list of things that may irritate/affect your fish' slimecoat.

Considering that the normal usage of bleech is to kill off any bacteria in your toilet, I do not want anything like it in my tank.

I didn't just soak the wood in bleach and then put it in the tank, I scrubbed it with bleach, but then soaked it for a few days in a tank with 4X dose of Prime. Rinsed, resoak, rinse resoak. I don't think the bleach is leeching out, I was wondering if the bleech didn't kill any micro-organisms etc in the wood... but then the UV should have killed them eventually.

Anyway, I had a hell of a night last night. I did some filter cleaning but couldn't get the damn thing restarted. It just wouldn't fill with water and whenever I plugged it in it sounded like it was running dry. At one point I even electrocuted myself when unplugging the horribly noisy filter after another failed attempt at restarting it. Finally, a few hours after being first unplugged, and well into the AM hours, it started like magic. It probably didn't matter at that point though, most bacteria were probably dead after an hour or so at most. So this was surely a wonderful development considering my already present ammonia problems.

And on top of that, the BN has gotten worse, not eatig, pretty listless.

Anyway, thanks for all your help on the sick fish situation, appreciate the effort

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Back in the saddle!

Anyway, I had a hell of a night last night. I did some filter cleaning but couldn't get the damn thing restarted. It just wouldn't fill with water and whenever I plugged it in it sounded like it was running dry.

Don't hesiate to PM if your having a problem with the Eheim.

Usually that will happen if it's not completely filled with water. You have to open and start the siphon going again.



My Scapes

Hi Guys,

You might want to read this site:
http://puffernet.tripod.com/maracyn-two.html

Basically, you killed off your bacterial colonies that
were breaking down the ammonia to nitrite to nitrate and
now in addition to the now "bad" water, you are recycling
the tank.

Treating that form of "algae" with any of the "cyn"
drug family will kill off the beneficial bacteria as well
as the "bad" stuff.

Another possibility when trying to eliminate that form
of algae is the use of Hydrogen Peroxide administered to
the infected areas with a syringe or turkey baster.
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/hydrogen-peroxide.html

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Notes from Mardel on biological filtration: "Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas are recognized as the primary beneficial bacteria present in the biological filtration system of any aquarium. Some drugs which treat fish diseases and parasitic infestations are harmful to these 'good' bacteria. When the biological filter is upset, there is a buildup of ammonia and nitrite concentrations resulting in fish distress and death. Mardel products have been tested with known strains of these bacteria with no adverse effects noted. When used as directed, they do not interfere with the biological filter."

That site says it does NOT harm the benefical bacteria

My Scapes

That site says it does NOT harm the benefical bacteria

Normally I wouldn't believe what's written on these fish medications. Ich medications often claim to be harmless to scaleless fish but in fact are not. I looked around for user information on the stuff and many people have had success using Maracyn for this purpose, including LF, so I had faith in it. I examined my bio-filter last night and it looked good and gunked up, not like it had been depleted at all.

A moot point now, of course, since the filter was left sitting idle for a few hours last night, so the bacteria probably mostly died out.

Tonight I'll go back to the old fail safe - a large water change and partial gravel vac - and hope for the best.

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Back in the saddle!

Nowher,
How are the fish? What's the biggest algae problem right now?

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Well, just to summarize a bit here:

The algae problems started first. Hair algae is the main problem with a bit of staghorn developing as well. The hair algae is most virulent on the bacopa carolina near the filter outflow. It's growing in both green and red varieties. It is easily removed by hand or by python, but grows back quite quickly. It also appears in the HM, though not as much. And for the most part, the hair algae grows up near the light, not so much down the stem.

The growth of all this algae then led me to test for ammonia, which I found to be present in the tank. I've been working to keep it down, but it still registers in traces.

Then recently I noticed the white patches on the fish. It started with two rasboras who had it for a few days while I was away. They were acting quite sick, swimming erratically and occasionally floating - those two I put down. Now my BN is covered on his left side with the white patches. He's now in a Q tank and as of last night was not doing well at all.


That's where things stand with this big tank mess. I assume it was something I screwed up during my EI dosing schedule. I'm not sure what, but it was as follows:

~1/4 tsp KNO3 3X per week, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less

~1/8 or less K2SO4 at the same time

one capful (5ml) Flourish 3X per week on off days

recently 1ml Flourish Iron per week for the Rotala

1ml P dosed with the other macros per week

This is all pretty standard stuff here, the only difference is sometimes I went maybe 8 days without a WC rather than 7.

So that's the situation then. When it rains, it pours

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Back in the saddle!

Having nh3 is definitely a problem. Did you have that much BGA that it would have given you that much when you killed it. Maybe that and it did kill your biofilter and you added more fish. Also I think you said your plants weren't growing as fast, so everything was going in the wrong direction. More fish mass, less plant mass, less biofilter. What is your current lighting schedule by wpg and hours. Your plants should be really sucking up alot of ferts, but it seems like they're not.

My Scapes

Is it posible to test how much your plants take up? I just got my test kit and I am starting to over think things I think. Once the plants hit a point they are not going to want to take up as much right? Could that be some of the problem?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Once the plants hit a point they are not going to want to take up as much right? Could that be some of the problem?

Why? Nutrients aren't going to make fish sick unless you push nitrate up to really high levels.

After dosing the Maracyn and killing the BGA what did you do. What happened to the BGA ? Maracyn won't make it evaporate ! Killing off a large quantity of any organism in one fell swoop is going to cause problems. Those dead organics are going to cause problems.

From the sounds of the syptoms something has been irritating the fishes skin. A healthy unstressed fish will shake off fungus easily.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

As i was reading the last few posts i was thinking
and about a year ago a lake that i used to ski at had BGA problems.. besides the major list of problems people reported. a common one was irritated skin.

maybe it was the BGA that caused the fish problems, and the maracyn took out your good bacteria.. and the high ammonia levels stressed the fish to the point that it was hard to shake the skin 'infection?' caused the the BGA

-note: i had BGA in my tank a while back, i never used maracyn just turned the lights off few a few days, but i did get fish deaths, my panda corydoras dropped like flies..

buggered if i know what I'm talking about, but other people experiences with things are always handy.

Cynical

After dosing the Maracyn and killing the BGA what did you do. What happened to the BGA ? Maracyn won't make it evaporate ! Killing off a large quantity of any organism in one fell swoop is going to cause problems. Those dead organics are going to cause problems.

Well, as I've done in the past after blackouts, after doing the indicated dose I did a large water change and sucked up as much of the dead BGA as possible. But you may be on to something with the dead organics thing, I imagine that perhaps my water quality wasn't as good as I thought.

I just did a large water change and got as much algae out as possible, as well as whatever organic mass I could find and dig up. Not sure if it's related or not, but I also bumped up CO2. The slow plant growth is a worry for me, and the only thing I can think of that's slowing it down is CO2. I know exactly how much macros/ micros I'm adding, the CO2 is the only inexact thing so I figure why not push it up some and see if I can get the plants going again. Besides, doesn't staghorn indicate a lack of CO2?

As for fish health, step one has got to be improving WQ. No more harley deaths, and the BN seems to be stable.

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Back in the saddle!

So far your approach would be what I'd do in the same situation.

Increasing Co2 is always the first place to start with algae, and water changes will improve water quality. Wait it out and hopefully you're over the hump.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

BGA usually affects new tanks because there is no established bio-filter to purify the water. All the waste is just sitting there. Any huge kill-off BGA will increase nh3 in a tank that already has probably some nh3.

Case In Point:
My son's newt/fish 10g setup has no plants in it (Actually one Mondo Grass) and all rocks. Heavy waste production and it has alot of BGA. I mean the rocks gravel and glass have nice thick dark green/blue sheets. Comes right off when you tuck gently. I recently started adding wisteria clippings to the tank all around the rock pile and I'm telling you there is almost no BGA in the tank.

BGA can be cured by alot of water changes and adding more plantmass and doing whatever you can to increase biofilteration.



My Scapes

Boy this board is really dead. I guess everyone has algae problems. I guess I'll take a nap.

My knowledge of shrimp is very limited. Can anyone tell me if this shrimp is a pregant female. This shrimp has really grown. You could see how big she/he is compared to those jumbo cardinals swimming by.



Attached Image:


My Scapes

Life sure is tough when you've got no algae problems to figure out, huh tetra?

I've been busy ona project all day, was going to respond to the original posts soon.

But she does indeed look pregnant, very very pregnant. Is that a cherry, amano or ghost? If it's a cherry you should soon have a nice supply of snacks for those hungry cardinals Who knows maybe a few will survive in the jungle.

You recommended getting them a few pages back and I was actually looking into it. These ammonia/ algae problems are throwing me off, though, so I won't do it any time too soon. I plan on starting up a little tank to breed them, just a little desktop number, maybe use the babies as the occasional live food. But again, I want to make sure I can fix one tank before starting on another

As for the algae, BGA is no longer the problem, now it's this messy hair stuff, but I think you're right that it does in a lot of ways come back to the bio-filter and the presence of a lot of decaying organic matter. Hopefully keeping the tank cleaner and with big water changes will bring things back into balance. The increased CO2 can't hurt either.

And speaking of water changes, I just did a big one last night, and boy do I wish EI allowed you to do them more often. I love how the tank rains bubbles upwards, and the water has a noticable extra crispness to it. The fish really enjoy it as well, they color up like crazy...



Wonder how my old BN is doing right now...

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Back in the saddle!

It's an amano. I do have a full cherries in there too that I do see occasionally.

I'm really out of it today, I just noticed I put this in your thread so if you want me to move it just give me the word.

I plan on starting up a little tank to breed them, just a little desktop number,

Great minds think alike. When I started up the 5 gallon for my ram fry I kept it going and have 3 cherries in there.

My Scapes

I was wondering what you were doing tetra, posting random things in his thread....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

If it's an ammano (should've known, it's on the upper DW) I don't think the babies will be born or grow, something like that. I would assume she'll release the eggs at some point, in which case they'll still make a nice treat for the fish. They're the kind that need salinity to develop, cherries can breed in FW.

Great minds think alike. When I started up the 5 gallon for my ram fry I kept it going and have 3 cherries in there.

Mine is just going to be the 2.5, some DW, moss and other cover plants. Right now I'm growing out a few kinds of mosses, still need to scape the thing. All in good time. The cherries are supposed to stay small so I think I could get away with a few in the 2.5

And leave the post here, who cares. There's random rambling in all of our threads

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Back in the saddle!

was wondering what you were doing tetra, posting random things in his thread....

Isn't a guy allowed a senior moment once in a while. Wait to you get older. You'll be posting fish questions in a curling forum.

My Scapes

haha!

Well tetratech, if you need something to do you can either find LF or post something in my thread.

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/27565.1.htm?0.09523547#

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

The cherries are supposed to stay small so I think I could get away with a few in the 2.5

Yep, really like the cherries they also seem very hardy. My 5g has no heater and the tank swings about 10F from night to day with no ill effects.

My Scapes

Interesting about the temp. According to the guy at this website, they can be kept to temps down in the 50's.. not necessarily breeding, but alive and well. Pretty hardy.

He also sells the cherries, if I can't find them locally then I'm going to order from him. He's in NYC so shipping will probably be pretty fast.

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Back in the saddle!

Interesting. He says the females are more red, when other sites have said the males are red and the females are pale. Of the three I have one is very pale, almost no red, the other is so so and the third is very red like a cooked lobster.

My Scapes

Here's two of the three I have. Same camera settings and look at the difference in color.



Attached Image:


My Scapes

Wow what a difference! They could be different species the colour's so different. They look very nice too.

I've been afraid to get shrimp again after my homicidal ghost shrimp that figured betta would taste good. Though Buddy's a bit of a thrill seeker, he always had to get just within reach of the long feelers, they could take scales off from quite a distance.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Hi,
I keep reading of folks having all sorts of success with
shrimp. I'd love to have some in my tank and I believe
they might be "happy" munching on what little algae is
in there. However, they simply don't last...
I've got Black Skirt Tetras, and Cherry Barbs.
I've tried Ghost Shrimp, and Cherry Shrimp, and I'm
beginning to think that I'm just serving the shrimp up
to the critters that already live there.
Heck, I even bought a bottle of Iodine with the last
batch I got from Arizona Gardens as they said that the
shrimp needed iodine in their water.

Everyone says that they are very tollerant of water
conditions.. Just dunno.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

tetra,

looks like the one on the bottom is the female to me. is it just me or is it carrying eggs on its underside? check that out a little closer dude...

frank,

i think in the presense of possible preditors some ground cover or plant cover in general would do them quite well. i can't see the cherry barbs being the aggressors, the black skirts on the otherhand... like little pirhanas...

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Back in the saddle!

I wouldn't be surprised if your fish are the problem. I was near my tank earlier today and my school of cardinals were acting like I had dropped some food in and when I went closer I noticed one of my cherries had come out of hiding and they were almost going into a frenzy. I luckily got the shrimp out in time. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it. I think my cardinals are feeling very good in the water conditions right now.

My Scapes

Maybe you should feed thoughs little things more!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wow, I've never heard of such aggressive cardinals. Wings, they should still be stuffed from all those ram eggs/ fry tetra has been cultivating.

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Back in the saddle!

Oh thats right. Maybe they are crossed with there cuz the pirhna? Taking on stuff much bigger than thereselves only because they are in a big group.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Brief update,

Tested for ammonia last night can came up with absolute 0, was the exact color of 0 on the chart, in other words.

Maybe I didn't kill my biofilter after all... or maybe it just needs a few more days for the ammonia to build up. Regardless, it's the first good sign I've had in a while.

I'm going to do another algae trim and debris vac tonight, then try to get back on the EI regular schedule again beginning next week. The additional WC will make me feel better before I go away this weekend.

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Back in the saddle!

Well I'm glad the nh3 is zero. That is important.

BTW - I testing for po4 today just for the hell of it. I honestly haven't tested in months and you know what I got.

5 ppm

Now I do have some bba on glass and dw, plants are growing too well to be bothered by it. So what to do ---- Well I thought about it long enough. I'm going to pretend I never tested and continue to do what I'm doing.

My Scapes

I'm sure you don't have any green spot algae though.

Algae is going to be present in every planted aquarium, it's going to be there somewhere if you look hard enough. The point is to make it nearly invisable, which you have succeeded at. You try make the plants grow, you don't try to get rid of algae - that's the theory that we know is right, even just using you and Bensaf as examples. That's the theory I - and to a much lesser extent LF and matty for example because they tinker so much when a little algae comes up - am trying to put into practice. You're doing a great job as it is, to hell with the test.

Those tests are like the little angel of good sense sitting on your shoulder, telling you to be careful. We all may be better off taking our finger and flicking him off when it comes to planted tanks. I personally stopped testing for ph and phosphate and nitrate. (Now compare this to a few thousand posts back in LF's log, when I wrote up a passionate ode to test kits... Bensaf was right again, it's probably easier to just go by what the plants tell you... GAACK!.. excuse me, just made me gag to admit that)

In other words, good call man, ignorance is bliss /:'

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Back in the saddle!

Yeah, good call forget the test.

BBA on glass ? I've had BBA on everything else I've never seen it on glass.

Some algae is always going to be present. As long as it's unobtrusive and not spreading no need to bother with it.

I still get specks of it on the gravel. Easy to handle, just pull with the tweezers and the little piece of gravel comes up with it. But I haven't seen any on my Anubias, even in full light, for months and months. Compare this to a couple of years ago when the Anubias where smothered in black.

Hardly see green spot anymore, the occasional speck on the glass. I haven't seen any form of hair like algae in well over a year.I'll get a slight grey haze on the glass if I don't clean every couple of weeks.

I've got literally hundreds of Java Fern leaves now. 99.99% algae free, bright bright green.

Never ever tested phosphate. I add a lot though, about 3-5ppm per week.

I'll take it

Bensaf was right again

You're just trying to get out of that butt kicking aren't ye ?

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I've had BBA on everything else I've never seen it on glass.

Definitely on the glass, some selected eco-complete rocks which as you said I just take out and some on a few leaves of the blyxa. It doesn't touch the other plants even when they are pressed against hardscape that might have some bba. I'm 99% sure the blyxa problem is slow growth due to a light issue in the bowfront of the tank.

I know Tom Barr always says bba low co2, but in this case, I can't imagine that. The plants are growing great, pearling, etc. and the co2 is a moving stream with a glass diffusor blowing bubbles right on the plants. Even the riccia is pearling which is located in and around the blyxa.



My Scapes

You're just trying to get out of that butt kicking aren't ye

I guess an Irishman never forgives/ forgets a slight made against his skirt. I shall remain on the look-out then.

tetra, definetely have seen BBA on the glass before, particularly in that one guy's tank in your "awful tank" thread, but that was really due to low CO2. Interesting that yours seems to be going against that grain, but in the spirit of your sig line, if it's not a problem, no point testing like a mad man and micromanaging to see what it could be. leave well enough alone

Anway, it's been a while since I've posted any pics, so just thought I'd put a few recent ones up.

This first one was after I did a WC last night (you can tell by the false pearling) but for about 30mins after the fact the harleys were doing this weird thing, where they just kept to this straight line schooling formation right above the tenellus carpet. Every now and then one would jump up to the front, then fall to the back and a bunch more would follow it, then they'd be still again. very strange, never saw this before:



next, just a close-up of the first time I actually got all three kinds of fish in one shot



and finally, a full tank shot using a custom white balance setting. I think it pushes the reds a little too far, but so far this is the most accurate to real life setting I've gotten out of this camera, so I'm happy about that:



You'll notice that the HM bush has really started to fill in, and I've started to move pieces of it over to the left to fill in that side.

Behind the HM bush there is a plant that I never identified, but was too pretty to toss. It's some kind of ludwigia species, the top of the leaves are a reddish green, but the undersides are bright magenta. Grows very slowly. I don'tknow where to put it in the scape, but I don't want to get rid of it.

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Back in the saddle!

Looking nice, nowhere. I wish my HM was that bushy! What's the green stem plant between the rotala rotundifolia & the bacopa? That's not the wisteria is it? The leaves look a bit too slim to be wisteria. Or maybe it's because they're squished in the middle.

Cheers!

-P

Thanks upikabu,

Your HM will grow in in no time, one it gets going watch out

The plant between the rotala and bacopa is indeed wisteria. I allowed it to grow up, and that's how it looks. It ain't called hygro. difformis for nothin'

The tenellus needs to be thinned out signifcantly, and I think overall the scape looks busy.

Also, I'm looking to replace the bacopa on the right side, i don't really care for it any more. the other area of need is right in front of the rotala, there's a missing space there. I think I may do away with that log altogether, it's kind of big and cumbersome, I dunno. Any ideas?

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Back in the saddle!

It is really starting to look almost jungle like. Has LF tanken over your tank? Maybe a nice piece of DW coming out of the tall stuff in the back would look nice.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

That's actually a pretty good call Wings. Like I said, im thinking of replacing the low piece of DW anyway. Ill have a look around ebay again

And now, like LF, I'm going to disappear for a few days (just the weekend though )

Take care everyone

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Back in the saddle!

Looking really good nowher Sorry I'm getting abit choked up .....my babies are grown up now They're proper little men

Jusr a rock or piece of wood betwee the Rotala and the little bits of Wisteria in front of it would look sweet

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Loooooking good .

Very full, lush, nice soft colors. Looks like it's time to trim and work with your stems to keep triangle look.

I also agree with "My Master" in the placement of add'l dw or rock inbetween rotala and low growing driftwood.

Also remove that tall "stem plant" on the left.

BTW - That first shot with the HRs is really a beaut.

My Scapes

About your fish schooling really tight. My dwarf neon Rainbows have been chiling together really tight all weekend. Maybe they don't like my girl being around..

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Well thanks for the compliments guys, but things really aren't as good as they seem.

LF isn't the only one with major algae problems: being away this weekend, my hair algae problems EXPLODED. Long green and brown threads, maybe 8 inches long hanging from the bacopa and now rotala. Staghorn here and there. Very nasty looking. I did my best getting the big parts out with a fish net, but there's still stuff hanging here and there.

Reading through LFs thread Bensaf had a lot of helpful things to say (and thank you for not holding out on the answer too much longer!) Mainly that staghorn was the result of low macros. Perhaps with my CO2 bumped up I've been supplying insufficient N with a good amount of P. Remember, after ammonia was present in my tank I lowered my KNO3 dosing because i figured let the plants consume the ammonia first, that form of N is already there. But I was dosing P three times a week to go with the lower N. Ammonia is no longer present - tested last night, the only test I still use - so I think I'll clean out some more stuff and get that N back up.

But that's not the worst part. Whatever disease is going through my fish continues to take a toll. Found another harley DOA, as well as my biggest yo-yo loach. That it's spread to the yo-yos disturbs me, as they've always seemed like my most happy-go-lucky bunch. Thus far it's affected every type of fish in the tank except for the gourami, which makes me think perhaps it was them that brought the disease in. The scary thing about these new deaths is that they weren't covered in white patches, they were just belly up at the surface. I'm really at a loss with this now...

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Back in the saddle!

Sorry to hear about the fish and plants.

I guess vacations and planted tanks don't mix. Kinda like having a dog. Clean it up, plant densely, run the co2 high, throw in the macros and let's see.

Look on the bright side, more pics for my horrific tank thread . Speaking of horrific I wonder how Chaos is making out with his restart

My Scapes

NowherMan6,

Sorry to hear about your mess with plants and fish.

I still haven't had the time to read through all the entries of your log since I left, you sure added quite a few pages (for someone who declared he will add only very little a while ago ).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

for someone who declared he will add only very little a while ago

Yeah well, that was when i thought things were running smoothly, and an update every two weeks was all that was needed. I didn't anticipate the hostile takeover by hair/ thread algae.

Sorry to hear you came home to an algae problem as well... but at least you got to enjoy a week in the tropics to prepare for it.

Clean it up, plant densely, run the co2 high, throw in the macros and let's see.

I guess that really is all I can do at this point Wargh. I'm going to take ride to the LFS and pick up some weeds and replace the bacopa. I think I trimmed the tops off the bacopa too many times without replanting, so those stems are going pretty slow which explains why they've attracted the algae growth, as opposed to the wisteria. I don't like their look anyway. I'll see what the LFS has to offer in the weed department.

Re: chaos - yeah, we haven't seen an update to his tank in a while. Wonder how many of his new glass shrimp have survived

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Back in the saddle!

I guess vacations and planted tanks don't mix.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with this statement, tetra. Vacations and high-tech (high light, CO2 injected) planted tanks definitely don't mix IMO. But IME vacations and low-tech (low light <2wpg, non-CO2) planted tanks get along just fine. As you probably know, I left my 3 planted tanks (all low tech then) for almost 4 weeks without feeding and I only had algae problem in one tank, and it was mostly green spots and diatoms on the glass. Plants grew ok in all tanks, just bottom leaf loss in some plants due to shading. Incidentally, the one tank that had the most problem was the one that had the least amount of fish and highest light (yup, lack of nutrients).

-P

I'd have to respectfully disagree with this statement,

Yeah, that's true. When I made that statement it was a little poke at nowher and LF who both went away and have hi-tech tanks.



My Scapes

The exodus to the Promised Tank continues. My BN kicked today, along with a gourami. I'm starting to get paranoid, I'm making plans to redo parts of the tank. I'm getting rid of that new DW piece, I don't trust it. And today I pulled up the big long piece of DW and holy crap out poured, well, crap, pleco crap and other organic debris. Did a big gravel vac, tossed the algae ridden bacopa and replaced it with more wisteria (). Also trimmed the rotala and rinsed the clippings under water to get as much algae off as possible. Tank looks much cleaner already, but there's going to be a ways to go. Found staghorn in a few places, so macros are off, going to up those as discussed earlier. Pics to come at the end of the week, hopefully.

This high tech tank is no fun after vacations

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Back in the saddle!

Hey Nowhere - sorry to hear about your entire ordeal, especially with fish loss on top of it all (fish death always bums me out the most - much more than algae). Can't offer anything constructive, except just to wish you luck in getting everything back on track soon! Hope the voodoo crap that visited your tank has now left.

Cheers!

-P

NowherMan6,

You definately have some serious infection going on in the tank. Are you treating the tank with any medication? Do you remember what bensaf pointed out - the internal parasite issue that befalls Pearls, so maybe the Sparkling brought the same into the tank?

No fun at all

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Do you remember what bensaf pointed out - the internal parasite issue that befalls Pearls, so maybe the Sparkling brought the same into the tank?

Interesting since bringing in my little gourami I got those dots on my cards - interesting

My Scapes

Part of me thinks it's something the gourami brought in, but not necessarily an internal parasite. I've dealt with internal parasites before - it's usually a slow drawn out process, the fish becomes emaciated and can't eat. This was sudden, with no physical signs except death (well, on the BN and one of the harleys it was some sort of white fungus/ ??? covering) but the loach and the sparkling gourami showed no other physical signs, which makes me think it's not really an internal parasite.

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Back in the saddle!

Sounds logical Nowher. I'll tell you if my cardinals still falling I'm filling up my tank with a nice big school of white clouds.

My Scapes

it's usually a slow drawn out process

Well, maybe not. I also think to remember that bensaf mentioned that there are potentially no signs at all and all of a sudden the fish is dead.

You just may remember when I got the Pearls and one dropped dead after just one day in the QT, showing no signs what-so-ever. That's when bensaf brought up the before mentioned points.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You just may remember when I got the Pearls and one dropped dead after just one day in the QT, showing no signs what-so-ever. That's when bensaf brought up the before mentioned points.

That's actually a very good point. Maybe I'll shoot him a PM and see if he has any more detailed info. If I come to the conclusion that it's them that introduced something to my tank, that begs the question, how do I go about dealing with them if they're all infected?

I'll tell you if my cardinals still falling I'm filling up my tank with a nice big school of white clouds

No no no! No white clouds! What ya do is, you give your old pal LF a call and you take some of his magical breeding espei off his hands. You have carnivorous pencil fish to pick off the fry so you won't be over-crowded with fry like he was, and he gets to lighted his bio-load. Everybody wins!

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Back in the saddle!

No no no! No white clouds!

Don't worry I'll get some golden ones, long-finned to mix it up a bit.

Actually that probably ain't a bad idea with the espei, but let's see how my school, shoal, herd, pack or whatever reacts. Maybe they bit each other and it wasn't the gourami. Moral of the story for all of us. Fish with "lungs" are bad luck

My Scapes

Moral of the story for all of us. Fish with "lungs" are bad luck

Yes indeed... and rule 1(A) to that Moral should read, If you must have a fish with lungs, ALWAYS use a quarentine tank.

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Back in the saddle!

tetratech,

I currently would be able to supply you with 30 juvenile Espei, but it would have to be soon as I will start to peruse the LFSs for a trade-in.

Yeah, a QT comes in handy sometimes. I am very glad that I can use my 20G for this purpose.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I currently would be able to supply you with 30 juvenile Espei

A very tempting offer, but right now with 20 cardinals it would surely be a free for all if I added those espei, so do what you need to do, but in the future we should definitely try to trade stuff (livestock, plants, etc.) could be a good NY/NJ thing with nowher and others in the area.

My Scapes

I wouldn't be too quick to blame the gouramies. From the sounds of the syptoms it's more like an infection or something irritating the skin or possibly an external parasite.

With internal parasites it's usually shown in behaviour rather then physical/marks syptoms. The sudden death thing is more attributable to fish with parasites being weakened anyway and the stress of introducing to new tank for example, being too much and they keel over ( a bit like LF's pearl and tetra's Honey).

In your case, where the fish were there for some time and settled, if the gouramies had been infected and it spread I'd expect a more long drawn out death.

Did any of the dead fish have swollen stomachs ?

A prophylactic dose of Metrodizanole will remove any possible internal parasites. It's a very mild med and won't cause any issues with healthy fish or plants.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

NowherMan6,

That is the medicine that I bought for my Pearls when the first one died. You may remember that I couldn't get my hand on it locally as all meds here contained this substance with something else (not pure) and that was too hot for me to handle. I ordered it from the "That Pet Place" website ($50). It arrived almost a week after the Pearl died and because all other fish did fine in that week I never used it. I may still use it in the future as Bensaf suggests it as a preventive treatment on Gouramies.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Not that I'm losing alot of fish, but I did find a dead cardinal today. (The first card lose since I started my UV) I'm still amazed at how my low tech tanks seem to do better. For example my 12 gallon sand bottom tank houses:

8 Gold Tetras
4 Black Neons
3 Otos
2 Kuli Loaches

I think you could say it's well stock and I haven't lost a fish yet (bite my tank) . I think it's been running at least six months, but I don't know because all the dates are screwed up in my thread.

I guess it's not a fair comparison because of the species. In my 72 I haven't lost any pencil fish, any bolivians, I lost one rummy in the first few weeks of setup.

My son's newt tank, no heater, had lot's of BGA and bearily any fish died. I'm also not in the camp that BGA is toxic to fish, because the BN in there was living off the stuff until I added alot of wisteria to get rid of it.



My Scapes

I ordered it from the "That Pet Place" website ($50).

$50 for Metronidazole?!?!? I remember buying it about a year ago and it cost a tenth of that Wonder why the price went up... I've used metro many times myself, as recently as a few weeks ago when one of my sparkling gourami developed a large bulge around her stomache.

The only swollen stomache fish was this sparkling gourami a few weeks ago, I posted a separate thread about it. But that was a big ulcer type thing, it wasn't a symmetrical bulging stomache.

Sorry to hear about your cardinal tetra. Was it one of those with the white spot on the tail?

No more fish loss thus far. My stock is now down to the following:

12 Harlies
5 sparkling gourami
3 yo-yos

But one of the sparkling gourami, i noticed, has one of his eyes bulging out of his head. I assume this is pop-eye?

Ya know, now that I'm looking through different lists of symptoms, it may be possible that they have fish TB. Is there any way to test for this? I know TB is bacterial, but is there a way to diagnose it?

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

I know nothing about TB, sorry about that.

But Here is a link to my Metronidazole.

Is that what you got for much less money?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That's the one. Got it from Drsfostersmith a while ago. Fostersmith actually has a bottle of pure mtro for sale, it's not seachem brand but it is just metro, 20 bucks I think. That still seems high. I can't imagine why it costs so much now...

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Back in the saddle!

Bigals has the Hikari Metro+ 3.5 ounces for $4.99

Nowher,
Well I still have two with the dots, so unless another one developed them it was a different one.

Anyone have any success with the Jungle Anti-bacterial food or is it alot of bs

My Scapes

Anyone have any success with the Jungle Anti-bacterial food or is it alot of bs

I have a nearly full bottle of the stuff if you want it, though it's probably not worth the shipping cost... conceivably i could put it in a white envelope but, again, probably not worth the effort

I've used it but I don't know if it works, mainly because I don't know if my fish had a bacterial infection. My fish went after it at first, then wouldn't touch it. Plus the thing with sick fish is, they tend to not compete for food so well, so it's really going to the wrong fish.

That's why I like non-food meds, you just dump some in and the fish take it in no matter what.

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Back in the saddle!

That's why I like non-food meds, you just dump some in and the fish take it in no matter what.

Point taken

My Scapes

well if you put the fish in a OT then it might have some worth if the fish wants to eat or not....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

NowherMan6,

No posts regarding this tank in over a week. I hope the fish loss has stopped and all is going ok.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey LF,

Yeah, I've been laying low the past few days, just doing some introspection, concentrating on the tank. The tank has gone under some pretty big changes.

But first things first: the fish loss stopped after losing two more gourami. That leaves 12 harlies, 3 gourami and 3 loaches. I have not been able to isolate the cause of the illness, or the algae outbreak for that matter.

I removed that new branch and the rocks around it, and since that time the deaths have stopped. I found it interesting that when I lifted one of those rocks, a sheet on the side of it just melted off. There seemed to be a ton of organic matter attached to it and around it. I don't know where it came from but I sucked it all up. Did a lot of other tank cleaning as well. Fish deaths stopped after that. I know it's specious reasoning to say that the two are linked, so it was probably coincidence. More likely is that the water quality improved drastically after removing the organic gunk. In any case I noticed that the yo-yos stripes became more distinct and they were more active after removing those things and the gunk, which to me indicates health.

That left the algae problem. The outbreak was/ is this long green thread or hair algae on the glass and one or two crypt leaves and this brown algae within the plant leaves that looks almost like diatoms, but threadlike as well.

A few days ago I decided to approach the problem by really looking at the plants. The wisteria told the story this time. The new/ infected leaves were dark green and generally not lush looking. Searching around I found some info indicating overly dark color in leaves was a sign of nutrient deficiencies, and in some cases N. I noticed the dark color in the tenellus leaves as well - usually both plants have bright green leaves when healthy. I know my CO2 was pushing pretty well, so to me that left N, since it seems to effect plant health more than anything else besides CO2 and light. I upped KNO3 to more than 1/4 tsp every other day, a little bit under 1/2 tsp. I also cut back very slightly on Flourish, since I was providing one full capful for my 46g tank, and that turned out to be a little more than necessary. For the past week WC schedule has been regular, once a week, but before that I was doing 2 per week. In addition I upped P dosing, as I believe I was underdosing it. K dosing remained the same.

I have to say, I'm pretty happy with the results over the past few days. Within 2 days new wisteria leaves were coming in bright green and full, not droopy. The algae was still present, but not growing and taking over as much as before, especially the brown stuff. It's still there, but it just needs to be vacuumed out. This will happen over the course of a few water changes. The very very long green thread/ hair stuff still worries me, but I removed as much as I could from the glass last night. We'll see how quickly it comes back this time around.

I still have work to do on the scaping side of things. It needs character again. Right now the tenellus is overgrown and wild. Wisteria is creeping into the tenellus. That big stem plant I have in the back left is starting to take off. Even though I personally like the jungle effect of a slightly overgrown tank, it needs some order. I'm planning out ideas of other plants to add, mainly more crypts and some small anubias nana probably. For some reason in my mind I think of them as "hard" plants - not in difficulty, just in terms of scape placement, because they're fairly static and don't change shape etc all too much. I think I'm lacking those, because the tenellus and wisteria just grow wild once settled, and there need to be some more anchors around the new DW pieces (I replaced all the old DW with self-sinking malaysian DW. Nice color too )

So that's basically where I stand right now. I'm going to lay low again for some more time, need to concentrate on the tanks, I think I was concentrating too much on posting about the tanks before rather than really paying close attention to them. Guess I'm not at the point where I can do both at once like you and tetra

And that's right, I said tanks, plural. I have my little 2.5g desktop tank set up. It features a large piece of DW, and I've got some slow growers in there. Mini-moss, mini-pelia (which looks like it will turn out beautiful ), going to add some petite nana and crypt parva. Probably some stems of HM once I upgrade the light. Have a bunch of floting pennywort to help the tank settle in.

and p.s. I've been around here keeping up on everyone's logs etc. I like the algae growth on your DW. It does the work of moss without you having to buy any of it. Doubt it will spread to the plants, as long as they're growing anyway.

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Back in the saddle!

I am glad to hear that things are getting better with your big tank (as I have to call it now, given that you now have a small one as well).

I am not glad to hear that you are planning to cut back on your chatter here at FP though .


Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I am not glad to hear that you are planning to cut back on your chatter here at FP though

Dude, I'm not joining the foreign legion or anything like that. I just want to follow through on getting the tank back in order and make sure I know what the heck I'm talking about before getting distracted by further chatter again I'll be in and out. With pics, since I haven't posted any in a few weeks (so much for being the photographer)

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Back in the saddle!

And that's right, I said tanks, plural. I have my little 2.5g desktop tank set up. It features a large piece of DW, and I've got some slow growers in there

I guess we are both holdouts . Sounds nice, I'm looking forward to seeing it. I hope the extra no3 does the trick for your 46g. We need some fresh pics, I'm sure people are getting tired of mine.



My Scapes

OK, did a bunch of cleanup and removed half a shoebox full of tenellus and clipped the bottoms off the HM because it had become so think they weren't really getting enough light. Replanted, rearranged, new wood etc etc. Right now it looks a little empty, but I think once it fills in it'll be nicer than what it was.

First here's a pic of the worst algae in my tank, the looong green thread stuff:



Lovely, eh?

Now a comparison shot - first what it was, now what it is:





There are a few areas of the tank that are still giving me trouble though... Particularly the empty middle section. I was thinking perhaps another kind of tall plant, or some anubias... or both And I think I'm going to break that little hook piece off that tall piece of DW, unless anyon ehas any othe rideas of how it could work I also have a vision of a little HC carpet in front of the HM

Anyway, that's my update for now. Hopefully it's a nice little break from the usual pictures of LF and tetras gorgeous tanks

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Back in the saddle!

Hopefully it's a nice little break from the usual pictures of LF and tetras gorgeous tanks

You know, I wouldn't call this tank shabby either. I like the way it looks now, nice and green. Isn't Pearl Grass one of the easiest plants to replant and to scape? I think so.

I also note that you getting into Wisteria Heaven here . You are for sure looking at way too many pictures from tetratech .

And I think I'm going to break that little hook piece off that tall piece of DW

Why? Do you think it looks ugly? I like the fact that it is not just a plain old stick. If you plan to keep it in the open then maybe adding some moss onto it could be nice.

And HC for the front might work well too, although I have to say that I like the "beachfront" (tetratech term), so keeping it open may work as well.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Wow, that's some healthy looking algae. If you could grow it on a rock it would look kinda nice. . Is the that algae growing mostly on the glass and other objects because the plants look good from what I could see.

That first pic you looked like you were pretty much there with maybe alittle fine-tuning.

The second pic as you mentioned the dead middle has broken the triangle. Do you not want a triangle? Oh I just noticed it's all wisteria on the right. Did that plant in the first pic (bacopa?) get consumed by algae?

From what I see, get the right as tall as possible. That new piece of dw looks like it should be pointed more toward the front of the tank and have the plants pass thru it half the way up as they go down the triangle. That's too bad about the tenellus that looked really nice.




My Scapes

I know it certainly is different, but you must udnerstand, much of the tank had bits of dead and living algae throughout, and it was necessary to uproot a lot and remove a lot of plants. That's what happened with the tenellus. You can't really see it in the first pic, but many of the leaves had BBA growing on them and excel treatment wasn't quite working. It was also so dense that I couldn't vac under there, so there was a lot of organic buildup for whatever reason. I'm trying to keep the bottom as clean as possible to improve WQ.

Now, the wisteria on the right is temporary, it's there right now because it's a great filler and great nutrient sucker. It's there until the algae break-out fully subsides, which it appears to be doing as the green thread stuff has shown no signs of coming back. (the rgeen thread stuff, by the way, only grew on the glass. th eonly stuff on the plants was this brown dirty looking stuff that looked suspiciously like diatoms. ) The bacopa sadly would not recover from the algae outbreak, it was sonsumed, and i think I clipped the tops off too many times, the bottom stems just didn't grow out. Add bacopa to the list of plants where you have to replant the tops every time

As for overall shape, I'm not sure if I want the triangle. I don't know what i want, but I'm not sure why there needs to be a defined shape, for example, it seems like I only have a few options: triangle shape, bell curve, or concave. I guess i just want something more random and less defined at the edges, but more defined within the 'scape itself, with room to get a little overgrown. Is that too much to ask?!?! That's what I'm going to experiment with anyway. Right now the plans are to eventually move some of the wisteria out of the right, and move the rotala group further to the right, adding another large stem plant grouping to either the middle or the right. I'd also like to add a few mid-level plants around the big DW on the right, like crypts, and maybe a tropica sword or two, something small. i didn't have success in the past with the tropica swords but that was because of my fert regimen.

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Back in the saddle!

Nowher,

I like the set up of the new tank better. Let things grow in and play arouhd with shapes and I think you will be happy.

What kind of filter are you running?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks Wings,

It's an Eheim ECCO some-number I forget, I think it's the biggest one

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Back in the saddle!

I see... thanks I have the same problem with the bright green hose. I am running a Odyssea aka new jebo on my tank. It really moves some water around compared to the HOB job.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric