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you went 100% LF style and messed with the whole tank?

- Well, I can't deny who I am

Yes, I did change everything, except for the substrate and the basic position of the rocks, although they have been elevated a bit to stand out some more.

Right now, I have a load of Wisteria floating in the 20G and even more Hyrgo in the 125G, I didn't have the time to do anything with it, and I didn't want to throw it out either.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok,

So here comes the visual change progress in 16 Acts (brace yourself).

After I came home on Thursday, I grabbed the package and began to unpack. The first one to be unloaded was the Barteri mother plant. Unfortunately, 3 small pieces broke off during shipping. That in itself would not have been all that bad, if it wouldn't be for the fact that all 3 are the growing ends of longer rhizomes of the mother. I am not certain if these 3 rhizomes will ever create new shoots, we will see.

Attached Image:

Mother Anubias Barteri

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Next, I unpacked the Lilaeopsis novae-zelandiae, Nana, and the Java Fern.

As you can see, the fern is rather small and the Anubias Nana is as expected, with about 5 leaves on each of the 10 plants. The Lilaeopsis came in a matt of one square foot, with roots and what not all being a big solid group.

Attached Image:

Nana, Fern, and Lilaeopsis

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Here is a close-up of the Lilaeopsis matt. As I mentioned a few posts back, after I finished adding all plants to the tank I discovered that small red worms, like tubifex, were in the bucket. I have to assume that I have some of them now in the tank.

Reason to worry? What do you think?

Attached Image:

Lilaeopsis Close-Up

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

After the unpacking came the boring and unpleasant task of cleaning the plants. In particular the Mother Barteri was a pain in the neck, all the roots were in this growing sponge stuff. I tried to get off as much as I could, but I am certain that some of it remained on the plant.

Here are the plants after some cleaning, ready for the planting process:

Attached Image:

Post Cleaning

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Then it was time to start messing with the tank, as Wings calls it: 100% LF style .

Before I got started I took one last shot of the tank with the warm-up plants still in place:

Attached Image:

Last Old Picture

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

First I removed all the tall plants, the Star Grass was thrown out and the Hygro was placed in a bucket for replant in maybe this tank or another. In the end, there was no space left for it in this tank and it was so late at night that I just added it to the 125G as a floater, and that is where it still is as I am writing this.

Attached Image:

Stems are Removed

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A scary part of this removal process was the thought that an Oto may decide to hide by clinging to a leaf and I would ultimately throw it away, but it didn't happen. Nevertheless, it means that each plant removed had to be carfully observed before being discarded off.

Next, I removed the Wisteria and the only plants left in the tank are the 3 Blyxas.

Attached Image:

All Plants Gone - Except Blyxa

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Then I removed all the wood from the tank. I used this chance to rinse it off a little as it still had some fungus growing on it.

At this stage, finding the Otos was an easy task, with almost nothing left in the tank for them to hide. And I am glad to report that all 6 original Otos are still around.

Attached Image:

Almost Empty Tank

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Next I performed a 30% water change, partially to remove some floating debris from the water column, partially to vacuum some gunk of the substrate. This was important as I had to do some minor rescaping of the substrate, like raising the rocks a little and reshapng the hills. Without the water change I would have made a major mess of the water column.

During all this time, the Otos were eating on any object that was left in the tank, at this stage pretty much only the glass in itself was there.

Attached Image:

Otos Hanging In

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Next, I repositioned the filter intake, heater, diffuser, and spray bar. The spray bar is now horizontally on the right of the tank, I have not been too happy about the enormous lack of surface movement in the old setup.

Then, all wood had been placed in the tank again to get a vision on how it would look. Here I had to really focus as I then went on to remove the entire right group again, but had to keep in mind where I would like to place the plants on the wood. After quite some time, the right group had 10 Nana and the 3 Ferns tied to it:

Attached Image:

Right Hill Replanted

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Here is a close-up that is of better lighting and a slightly different angle. As you may notice, not all Nanas are tied to the wood, some are tied to a rock in front of it.

The Fern isn't tied too high on the rocks as I expect it to grow higher by itself.

Attached Image:

Right Group Close Up

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Then I had to make a decision.

Obviously, I ran out of Nanas to plant and the left group contains a large area of wood in its center that eliminated the option to plant anything in the substrate there. So, I decided to, at least for now, add that mother Barteri to that section.

What do you think?

Attached Image:

Left Group With Mother Barteri

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

In the meantime, the Otos were happy that the wood was back in and insantly started to munch away on it. Occasionally they still came to the glass though and gave me a chance to count them, as I was still worried that I may have squeezed them under some added wood.

Attached Image:

Otos Hanging In

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The tank at this stage actually does not look all that bad, maybe I should have just kept it that way. The problem would have been the rather small plant mass, with lots of light and CO2, and that would have been asking for trouble.

So, on I went to plant the Lilaeopsis novae-zelandiae, WHAT A PAIN

I had to divide the matt into smaller chunks, and then take these chunks into even smaller plugs that can be planted. Overall, I would estimate that I created anywhere between 70 and 100 of these plugs, although it felt like I made about 1000. It took forever. Planting these plugs though was not all that hard, thanks to the ease with which Eco lets you add plants.

After that planting the tank was complete:

Attached Image:

All Panted

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Here is a closer look at the center area of the tank with the Lilaeopsis novae-zelandiae and the 3 remaining Blyxa in place. It is a very nice plant, altough I have to confess that I know little about its growth pattern, speed, and anything for that matter. Any info is welcome:

Attached Image:

Center Area of Tank

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And last but not least, another full tank shot from last evening, about 19 hours after the setup was completed.

I seem to identify that the Lilaeopsis novae-zelandiae leaves have uprighted themselves to some degree, at least in the picture they seem a little more pointed upwards than in the previous shot.

And that is that, all done for now.

What do you think? Any input? Anything you can see that I messed up? Anything?

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

One Day Later

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I'm thinking.......

My Scapes

Ingo,

I like the way the tank looks now but you now have me throughly confused.

I though that the point of starting the tank out full of fast growers, was because they grow quickly and get established quickly creating a large plant biomass to out compete the algae spores that are always present in air and water.

Ok, jump to this week when you take out all the fast growers and replace them with some slower growing plants.

This is what confuses me. What was the point of the stem plants?

At this point you have basically done a reset of the tank. The algae spores are still present, but instead of a large fast growing established biomass, you have a smaller, non established slow growing biomass. What is stopping the algae from getting establishing now?

My thought would be to remove a section of the stems and plant some of the Anubuias and the Lilaeopsis. Then a couple weeks later do some more, etc. This way you never have a situation where you have no established plants.

Anyway I not trying to be critical, just trying to learn. It does look very nice.

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Anyway I not trying to be critical, just trying to learn.

Hey Rick, I hear you - I am trying to learn myself.

Initially, the idea was to remove only part of the fast growers and plant that section with new, more permanent plants. Over the course of a few weeks or a month or two, the whole tank would have been changed.

That would have been ideally what I wanted to do, but there were some logistical problems:

- If I order all plants at once, what do I do with the remaing plants? My other tanks can only house an additional plant load if I a) either replant each tank to accomondate for the extra load or b) have them float in there and risk a die-off from the shading over weeks.

- If I order them over weeks on a buy-what-you-need-now basis, then a) can I be guaranteed that the plants are available when needed, b) do they sell small masses of the individual plants (no problem on the Anubias, but a no-no on the Lilaeopsis, which comes as half this size as the minimum quantity), and c) I would have to pay a fortune in shipping for small packages that have to be overnighted.

- The addition of the fast growers was not for nothing, at least not in my opinion (and I may be wrong). Water from the tab has nothing to do with tank water in an established tank, loads of natural goodies, like beneficial bacteria etc., are missing, and the tank's filter is "clean". Riding the tank in with fast growers creates a plant friendly environment that will help to keep algae at bay. I hope to have converted the tank into such an environment where new plants still will have an advantage over algae. Plus, the fact that I have the light on for only 8.5 hours per day should help as well.

- As Wings put it nicely, I did a replant LF Style, just check all my other logs if you don't know what that means. For better or worse, most likely worse, my way of doing these things is by removing pretty much all content from the tank and then start to replant. I simply seem to be incapable to remove only parts and not influence the other parts. For me, it is all a chain reaction, a move on one subject causes another having to change, and so forth. I hope this explanation makes sense to you.

Thanks for the comment on the current look

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Looks really nice Ingo.

Everything looks nice and I like the Lilaeopsis & will have to look it up. Knowing my luck, though, it needs high light I bet.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Robyn,

Yeah, I think the Lilaeopsis needs hight light to thrive, although I have to confess that I did one of these "oh - how pretty, I need to have it and will research the details later" kind of purchases. Ususally, that style comes back to haunt you later

Rick - one more thing: I think that I have a rather large plant mass in there right now, with this plant being so dense and all parts exposed to the light (rather than the shaded bottoms of the Star Grass that always wither away, or the rather bare stems of the Hygro that carry only a few leaves each).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

My first reaction is "Sod"
You certainly have an instant lawn and in itself the tank looks nice, but I'm alittle confused about what your trying to accomplish.

Weren't you trying to do two mounds with rock work, etc. The microswords although a foreground plant are very tall and is hiding any kind of hardscape that the plants play off of. The blyxa is really wasted in that spot since it's color and shape is very similiar to the microsword.
Are you planing to reduce the microsword population or do you want a full lawn? I thought you were doing a beachfront in this tank or was that another tank in your "Fishroom"

Don't get me wrong the tank is pleasing to the eye, but I'm not sure what the goal is?



My Scapes

I'm not sure that I like how the lilaeopsis is basically all one level and flat across the tank. It doesn't do much for creating depth, it looks especially flat knowing that this is such a deep tank front to back. I say you either need to do more with the gravel to produce depth or find some taller grasses to mix in with the one you have now.

That said, I do like the plant choices, and you probably already have a plan for creating some interest in the grassy area that I don't know about. It does look nice for doing a 100% change in one day, and will continue to look better, I'm sure.

The barteri will form new shoots from any cutting. I've chopped a nana into about 6 peices before and watched all of them sprout in new directions. It actually seems to encourage branching, like in stem plants.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Gee,

Everyone is a critic

Folks, I worked my lower back off to get this together and you tell me its just another failure?

Ok - the entries by tetratech and Matty:

The beachfront idea was pretty much scrapped when Bensaf mentioned that black substrate doesn't lean itself to a distinct beach appearance and I was unwilling to add another lighter substrate.

I am aware that the Blyxa doesn't stick out, but maybe it will when it grows taller (although color is pretty much the same but may turn more reddish, I hope).

The rocks were never intended to be a focal point of the hardscape, their main purpose is to keep the hills together. And I agree, one cannot see much of hills anymore anyway, that was a design/planning flaw. The hardscape focus is the wood, and unfortunately that doesn't come out in the pictures that well. I am plannning to add a white background that is removable to add just for the pictures so you get a better idea on how the tank looks like when you actually stand in front of it.

Overall, I gave up on the idea on having a detailed vision before I redo one of my tanks and then follow through with that vision at any cost. I rather prefer right now to have some idea and then go with the flow, creating what comes natural during that process. Why - because I am not experienced enough to lay out a clear and suitable vision that actually resembles an implementation without having it in front of me.

Yes, one of the visions was to add some taller plants spread out on the plain to create some highlights, but they are secondary implementations not important for the mass of plants. I may add some red Wendtii or other accent plant much later in the progress, we will see. Crypts or such plants seemed at this time to only have increased the slow growing group and to cause a decrease in water quality because of the almost given melting.

I chopped my Nanas and Barteris in the large tank as well, although only into two pieces each. Thanks for the thums up on the regrowth.

And overall - the goal is to enjoy the ride . So far, all of my tanks have seen overhauls and I srongly believe that I will never be finished with any of them. As I said, I can see that the Barteri Mother will have to go again, then I can mess with that wood area some more. Assuming I plant similar plants than on the other wood group, I will need about 15 to 20 more Anubias to do so.

So, now I would like to hear some more positive feedback, if you don't mind

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey I made sure to throw some positives into my post, I don't even like being critical of other people's work, especially when it looks pretty good. I like the anubias on the wood, you were going to change this? or were you going to just add more anubias? I do think some color would be nice, we get "bronze" wendtii at the store, and it seems to stay more compact than the red does. That was the plant in the front left of my old tank. I always like that one and wished I had made a better place for it.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

The beachfront idea was pretty much scrapped when Bensaf mentioned that black substrate doesn't lean itself to a distinct beach appearance and I was unwilling to add another lighter substrate.


I really don't buy that and I must disagree with my master about the darkside
There are some pretty distinictive beachfronts in nature. Let's see Hawaii and Tahiti come to mind.

It's really about contrast. If the rocks separating the plants from the substrate have a good constrast it really doesn't matter whether the sand is white, black or Bermuda pink.

Why not have a few rocks sticking out of your microsword field and plant the Blyxa in-between them. You need some areas of constrast and depth.



My Scapes

Hey, I really don't mind critics, they are what keeps us going. I think it would be more of a concern if a tank is changes and all that comes back is "looks nice".

Well, I didn't think about far away beaches when looking at a black beachfront, I looked at tetratech's tank . Although it didn't look bad at all, it didn't stick our either. Also, keep in mind that in order to have a beach I probably should have made it all around, with being a tank in the open from all sides.

Matty - The Barteri on the left is simply too big and starts to high up. You should see it from the other side of the tank (will post a picture maybe tomorrow), you can see the huge root mass elevated above the grass plant, it is almost ugly. Also, given good ferts, CO2, and light,the stems of the Barteri will grow so long that the plant will push out of the water. I think I will have to remove it.

tetratech - good idea on the rocks sticking out, I still have some of them available. First though I will try to get this load established before breaking it up again.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

BTW - When Bensaf mentioned the black sand beach wasn't distintive did you confirm he was sober

As far as the beach to each his own. I have both white an black sand beaches and they both work IMHO. The 72g has riccia and petrified wood that both constrast nicely with the eco and the 12g has javamoss meeting the white sand which again is a nice constrast.



My Scapes

The 72g has riccia and petrified wood that both constrast nicely with the eco and the 12g has javamoss meeting the white sand which again is a nice constrast.

Exactly tetratech - and I have neither nor. I envisioned your 72G and deducted the beautiful border to the beach. Which is what my tank would not have, a border, otherwise there would not really have been any space left, considering the all around beach. Border would have met border from the other side with maybe a small strip of "land" in between. That is why the black in itself would not have been such a great idea for me. You know what I mean?

I didn't check if he was sober, and I don't know in what state of mind he has his best ideas either

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I see pretty good constrast with your rocks and the eco. If those were bordering the islands separating the eco fromt the plants with a center area of all eco it would be fine in my hubble opinion.



Attached Image:

Good Contrast

My Scapes

Ok,

So - with the old saying pictures are better than words, here are a few (12) details of the tank.

First off the more ugly side of the Mother Barteri, with loads of roots really visible in the tank. That part is hard to cover up, attempts to do so seemed forced:

Attached Image:

Barteri Roots

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Next up,

A detail of one of the Ferns attached to the driftwood. As you can see, they are still small. I hope that when they grow they will give the right group some additional height.

Attached Image:

Narrow Leaf Java Fern I

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is another Fern shot, from a differnt group. You can even see the black thread with which the fern is attached to the Wood.

The little white spots are there because I just added some Equilibrium to the tank.

Attached Image:

Narrow Leaf Java Fern II

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Tetratech - you referred to the rocks. Well - they are still there, and some of them are quite visible in the tank.

If I am not mistaken then this is exactly the one you were showing. No plants in front of it, still in the open.

Attached Image:

Rocks I

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All rocks have been elevated a little to stick out some more than before. Here is another unhidden one, shot from the left end of the tank.

I agree that this one may dissapear over time, but I can always remove some plant mass to re-show it.

Attached Image:

Rocks II

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All good things come in 3

So here is the rock group that is visible from the backside of the tank, just below the Barteri.

Oh, BTW, the wood that the Barteri sits on forms a wondeful cave below it, you may be able to see that in the picture. I am thinking Apistos

Attached Image:

Rocks III

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a shot from the right side of the tank, the one where all the equipment is coming in. I have the wood sticking out almost to the glass. This will serve as a natural divider for the grassy plant as well and give it some variety.

Attached Image:

Right Side

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And here it is from the left side. Nothing special to see here, maybe even a bit boring.

Attached Image:

Left Side

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

An added bonus of this order was that the Micro Swords were covered in Duck Weed, the plant that I managed to kill (or have all eaten up) in the 125G. I will transfer some of it over there tomorrow to start a new culture.

Attached Image:

Duck Weed

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Here is a detail from the back view, with a little less light, that shows you that the plants are all slightly different, unlike Hair Grass where one sprout looks just like the next. Or at least that is what I can see.

Attached Image:

Close-Up

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Here is a full view of the backside of the tank, with the see-through option into the 125G.

Rocks and even some wood that is placed on the ground (big piece, going all the way through the right Barteri group, serving as the base for that plant) are showing through, although the wood also may dissapear over time.

Attached Image:

Full Back View

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And lastly, although I cannot take any credit for it, a shot of a Barteri flower. I find it a good sign if the Anubias that is coming in already has a flower, makes me more certain that it will have additional ones in the future.

That is it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Barteri Flower

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Weekly Tank Update - Week 5

As has been well documented during the last 2 pages, this week has seen a major change in the tanks plant selection. Albeit the results concluded in mixed reactions, at best, I like the new look and will keep on modifying it as time goes on, but first I will let it settle to see how the plants will grow. The one plant that is more likely than not to be removed soon is the Mother Barteri, it is just too big for this tank and its positioning doesn't help the cause either. In its place should go about 15 to 20 Nanas.

I will spare you from an army of additional pictures, you have seen it all in the last few pages.

Here is a front shot from today,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Week 5 - Full Shot

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well,

Here is one close-up of a change that I just performed. As the CO2 hose came off yet again, by now an almost daily thing, I changed the suction cup and holder. I used a true airline sucktion cup and placed its holder directly at the end piece of the tube, where it is shoved over the diffuser. I was a little worried that I may break the glass, but I was fed up enought to do it anyway.

Ingo

Attached Image:

New Diffuser Holder Position

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I probably missed this somewhere, but why didn't you put the mother barteri on the right DW which is a lower position and the nana on the left (or is that just an illusion)

Well it sounds like we are having the same problem with the tubing. I've done what you are doing now and it still came off or it doesn't necessarily come off but the co2 escapes at the union of tubing and glass and never makes it to the diffusor. I guess I'll try Nowher's suggestion of heat or go back to Lee's Stealth Black Tubing. I never had the issue with that tubing but it wasn't co2 quality so I went to the greenish and blueish silicone type tubing.
I've noticed an increase in BBA due to the fluctating co2 levels because of this.



My Scapes

The rocks have disappeared again ! I understand you want to highlight the wood, but the rocks will only help with that. Especially now.

What's happened now is that there is alawn creating a flat horizon and the wood appears to be sitting on that.

Some rocks or other plants emerging from the lawn will break up that flat horizon.

The Blyxa is in the wrong place, but then it always was. Blyxa is a plant that cries out to be placed in front of wood or rock to highlight the colors. Having it alone at the front was always a waste, more so now has it's simply disappeared.

Shame the Fern was so small. it will change things once it grows in.

Don't be down hearted. It's a very nice tank , just a few little tweaks and it will be even better.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

The black sand can work in some cases. It can work with petrified wood as the wood is a brighter color.

In the tank the ADA old dark wood would simply disappear and fade into the black sand. IMHO. This is not to say I was or was not sober then.....or now

Bear that in mind now. Some the branches resting on the substrate will look real good cutting into the lawn. The dark wood against the bright green. Everybody wins

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Don't be down hearted. It's a very nice tank , just a few little tweaks and it will be even better.

Well, for sure the tank will receive some tweaking, that was in the plan all along. The Barteri (on the left) sits much higher up than the Nanas (on the right) as the long piece of wood (that stretches out over the substrate towards the mid back of the tank) is rather high, with the cave below it and all. The Blyxa may move at some point, right now it is in its current spot because it was one of the few that got some ground light when in the growout phase and I would like it to develop some roots first (darn floater).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

I have been kind of peeking in here every now and then to see what has been going on and trying to come up with something to say about your tank. Right now here are my feelings about it.

Things are gone in the jungle of plants once again as others have already stated. Adding in taller rocks would be nice to get them above the grass. I am not so sure I like the Anubias with your wood. Personaly I think it is too much wideness of leaves which takes away from your very nice branches of DW. Just my two cents. Feel free to stop by my log and beat up on my tank too!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Ingo,

My two cents: I think you're right about the mother barteri, the leaves are too big for this tank and it throws off the perspective. A large plant like this works wonderfully in keithg's 90 gallon tank, but for a low 40 breeder it's too much. A big mass of java ferns may look good in its place.

See, part of the challange of this tank is that it's viewable from all sides, meaning you can't just build up stem plants in the back to highlight the dark wood and show it off. I think it may help do do what Bensaf suggested in my little 4 gallon, tie some moss, java or otherwise, onto that long branch sticking out, that way there'll be some contrast. Maybe some christmas moss, since it'll hang down more than I think java would.

In understand what bensaf is saying about the rocks, but honestly I think it works fine without them, or I should say, it works very well with just wood. Your original layout vision is great, it's just a matter of bring it to life. It's just a matter of creating more "movement" with the substrate level, right now it does look a little flat. I feel like in your original vision you had a deeper valley in mind...

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Back in the saddle!

Weekly Tank Update - Week 6

As you all know, if you follow my 125G log, this week had a 2 day power outage. Plants seemed to have survived ok, I see some dying micro swords and a few Anubias leaves came off. I don't know if the latter is based on the lack of light or shipping and handling, but at least one rhizome seems to be melting.

Here is the tank before the Water Change

Attached Image:

Before Water Change

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Some bad stuff happened during the water change, the entire wood group on the right fell apart. After loads of cursing and a few attempts, I finally managed to create a new one that seems to be a little more stable.

I know it is not the prettiest, but I am too busy overall to care.

Attached Image:

After Water Change

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a look at that new grouping from the other side of the tank. I know, no sign of a hill and what not, also the overwhelming amount of micro swords and what not, but that is what it is for now.

Attached Image:

Back View

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Seems like you came through in this tank ok. You don't mention the otos, but I assume they made it (or you would have mentioned it).

Hope things settle at work.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Robyn,

Yes, all Otos are accounted for, even after my wood structure fell apart

There seems to be some signs of damage to the Anubias, one Nana is on its way out and certain areas (in the region where there was some damage done during transport) of the Barteri are turning brown as well

And the micro sword is not yet sending out any runners, hopefully it will settle soon. I could see this plant as a nice ground cover in the 125G, maybe I will move it there as all of you don't think it fits in this tank anyway .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Sending out runners? Where are they going to go? It looks like your tank is chopped full! Could you take a top down picture for us?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

maybe I will move it there as all of you don't think it fits in this tank anyway .

I actually think it looks good, I just reacted with surprise because it isn't what I thought you were going to do. As Wings stated the Microsword is planted heavily and it will probably need to be thinned out in short order.
What I think would look nice in the tank if you could somehow get those two hills to stay up higher so the rocks show more (maybe bigger rocks) and then have the microsword come down the hill with a rock here and there.

My Scapes

Sounds good tetratech, I am sure there will be plenty more changes to come before we will be all happy with it (and I am not happy, but by far not as unhappy as I am with the 125G).

There are actually quite some gaps between the plugs of micro swords that can be filled up with runners. I think this plant would make a great carpet in the big tank, but of course it may not grow there, given that it likes finer grained substrate.

Ingo

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Ok gang,

If you follow my 125G log then you know that I traded some of my Espei in at the LFS for store credit. And of course, a credit is worth nothing if you don't buy anything for it.

So I did

I announced it a while ago, and now I would like to introduce you to Mr. and Mrs. Apistogramma cacatuoides "Triple-Red".

Here is a picture of the female in the bag in the 20G QT.

Attached Image:

Female cacatuoides

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And here is a picture of the male, also in the bag. I had to pay a little extra to get them, but they are supposedly easy Apistos to have, don't give you too much trouble, and on top of it are nice to look at.

The 40G with the natural cave created by the driftwood on the left will house them well

I don't have any additional shots yet, as I am still acclimating them and the lights in the tank are off already. Once again, they are first going into the QT.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male cacatuoides

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Very nice, Ingo. It's funny I was in the LFS the other day and I had my trigger on the finger and was going to purchase a pair of those and I simply don't have anywhere to put them. I would have to get rid of some fish to accomodate them. Part of me would like to house them in my 12g with about 5 or 6 CRS, but I have that nice school of gold tetras.



My Scapes

LF - did you get them from AF? If you did then you shouldn't have a problem breeding them - last week I witnessed some obvious mating-type behavior by those two...

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Back in the saddle!

They look really nice Ingo. I hope you enjoy them.

Now we can compare cacatuoides notes. Yours are very similar looking to mine. Your female looks bigger than mine, but that may just be the shot. My male is easily twice my female's size. Your male is very similar to mine, except that the black & red pattern shown on the rear of your male's tail, is strongly repeated on my male's anal fin as well. Also my male's dorsal fin is red all the way through - nothing there that is not either red or black (no clear). My male's tail is divided into 2 colour patterns. Close to his body the tail is strongly patterned red/black & as it reaches the 2nd half of his tail it is strongly yellow/black. I wonder if your males colouring will become like mine or if these are the variances. Does your male have a slight blue outline to his lower lip?

Good luck & I hope they are in very soon.

Enjoy.

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

Thanks to all 3 of you for the input, I guess that means that you basically approve of that fish.

NowherMan6 - indeed I bought them at AF, and it must have been the pair that you saw, as they are in the store for about 4 weeks already. They have been in the tank with some younger discus and pencils. Also - when Tom and I went to the tank we first couldn't find the male as he was hiding in the fake plants, which - Tom said - is usually a sign of an agressive female during breeding. So your statement confirms his assumptions, awesome.

Robyn - Well, if mine don't color up some more then I assume that I don't have a pure Triple-Red set here. I was reading up on these fish a few weeks ago and if I remember that right then fry of Triple-Reds are of varying color schemes, the blue print of regular cacs, red, double red, and triple red. Maybe mine are somewhere there in the mix. I guess time will tell
Also, my female is almost as big as my male (or - the male is just a little larger than the female), to me that means that the female is quite a bit older than the male who still has some growing to do while she is all grown up.

Tetratech - I hear you. I wish one could record the thinking process that goes through a hobbyists mind when he/she stands in front of a tank at the LFS that has a nice fish or fishes. In split-seconds, an attempt is made to shuffle existing fish around the tanks, try to see where these new ones could be squeezed in, and what not. Gladly, most of the time we can resist, otherwise all our tanks would be stocked like my 125G at Espei-Hay-Day.

Ingo

Edit: Robyn - Yup - blue line on lower lip, but I only saw it in the LFS, later he was too scared in the bag.

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I guess that means that you basically approve of that fish

Yep

Re: the fry, I've read the fry can be red, double red, triple red or orange flash & a mixture in the one brood, even if the parents are both confirmed as the same type eg double red, triple red, etc.

You wait till you see your male open his mouth. That is one big mouth on a little fish.

Maybe mine are somewhere there in the mix.

Who cares really what mix, as long as they are pretty & give their owner pleasure. Mine were sold as double red, but after reading up, I think they are triple red. Somewhere I read if tail, dorsal & anal fin are all red, then they are triple red. If tail & dorsal only are red, then double red.

But what the heck - they're pretty

Cheers
TW

Awesome Ingo, they are beautiful

When I was watching him it was the female that was hiding at first - he was going after his reflection in the tank like a betta Later she came out and he definetely made a few attempts to wrap his body around hers, and she was pretty accepting of it. Now, I'm pretty sure that's not necessarily the breeding act itself, but it seems like standard courtship behavior. Soon you'll have a harem!

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Back in the saddle!

Hey,

I am rich, rich, rich ( sounds familiar? )

If you saw them in the LFS, NowherMan6, then you remember maybe how much they cost , being not all that much cheaper than my Apisto viejita II pair.

Uh Robyn, we are going to have so much fun comparing notes, and all the arguments about what defines single, double, and triple reds .

Ingo

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I am rich, rich, rich

For the last time, you don't need to be rich to use ADA substrate!



Aaaanyway, that's pretty standard for set-pairs of apistos I think. If you go through a breeder online you'd pay maybe 12-15 for a pair, but then you have to add in 30 or so for shipping. It all evens out, just standard fare. They're hardy enough though, so I dont think it's a wasted investment.

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Back in the saddle!

LF,
What was the price tag on those guys? I was looking at some about a month a go at a fish store up north. I think their price was 14 per fish or 24 for a pair. Just wondering what it is like out your way.

Can't wait to see some more pictures. They are very nice fish. Someday I hope to get my hands on some but that might mean another tank set up. Oh darn....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Let's see Wings,

Trade in 30 Espei for $1 a piece, shell out another $20 = $50.

Interestingly, the two times I traded in Espei I always ended up with using the money to buy Apsitos.

Ingo

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and all the arguments about what defines single, double, and triple reds

Noooo, no arguments, just fun comparing notes. I'm very glad you have this fish, it is like confirming that my choice to buy this fish was a good one, now that you have the same fish.

I would like one or the other of ours to have babies though, to see if it is true that you can get all the different variants from one pair.

For the last time, you don't need to be rich to use ADA substrate

I am living proof of that fact, that's for sure.

Have fun

Cheers
TW

... is like confirming that my choice to buy this fish was a good one, now that you have the same fish

Hey, just because I have the fish doesn't mean that it was a good choice, although I am flattered by your statement.

I selected this one for a few reasons:

- A rather pretty Apisto
- One of the easiest to maintain
- One of the lesser shy ones
- The easiest to breed

At least that is what I was reading about them.

Ingo

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Tetratech - I hear you. I wish one could record the thinking process that goes through a hobbyists mind when he/she stands in front of a tank at the LFS that has a nice fish or fishes. In split-seconds, an attempt is made to shuffle existing fish around the tanks, try to see where these new ones could be squeezed in, and what not. Gladly, most of the time we can resist, otherwise all our tanks would be stocked like my 125G at Espei-Hay-Day.

I would love to put another tank in my "Fish-Kitchen" but I believe the inhabiants would end up on my dinner plate.
My wife has been a good sport allowing two tanks down there. So if I want more fish some will have to go:
On the possible moving list are:

- 4 rummynoses
Great fish only lost one since I started my 72g and that was in the first 2 weeks of setup
- 4 Black Neons
All 4 have been with my since I started the 72g.
- 5 Pencilfish
Great fish, haven't lost any since startup
Problem with all these fish is the kinda blend in and at the same time make the tank look to chaotic. If I move these I might take my 8 gold tetras out of my 12g and use the 12g to house a pair of rams or apistos.




My Scapes

Hm,

I may be wrong tetratech, but I think to remember that the male Apisto's territory requirement is approximately 2 square feet, which would not be given in the 12G. On the other hand, I don't know what the consequence of less space would be, maybe more aggression towards the female, or maybe the complete intolerance of any other moving creature. Also, I don't know if this applies to all Apistos or only to some of them.

Ingo

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Some apistos are more aggressive than others. Borelli's and tri's are smaller and less aggressive - they may work better than cac's.

A pair of cac's would work in a 12, but the way tetra has his set up now, with little breaking up of sightlines and virtually no plant cover (other than on the substrate), may not be the best for them. If it was more jungle like I'm sure it would work.

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Back in the saddle!

Working or not,

Here are a few shots of mine from tonight, just for the giggles. When I came home they both were more or less in hiding on opposite ends of the tank.

Later they came out and scavenged the substrate for snails and other goodies.

Here is the female at work:

Attached Image:

Female I

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As you can see, it appears as even she has blue lips.

Here is a better side shot that also shows off her blue face markings:

Attached Image:

Female II

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In this head-on shot one can clearly see her lower lip. I didn't know that females have that too. Hopefully I did not get a male of a different species by mistake.

That would be a bummer...

Attached Image:

Female III

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And here is a head-on shot of the male.

Also visible is his clearly blue lip.

He is only a bit larger than the female, which in turn has the size of a grown-up, pretty much the one of my female viejita. The male is much smaller than the male viejita.

Attached Image:

Male I

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So, how was that again?

If the anal, dorsal, and caudal fin are red then it is a Triple-Red?

Hm, he has red in all three, but there seems to be at least some yellow at the base of the dorsal and caudal fins. I wonder if that still counts:

Attached Image:

Male II

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Here is another side shot of him, showing off a little more blue on his face.

From the base structure, he is slightly different from my male viejita as he has somewhat of a hump on his forehead. Is that normal?

Attached Image:

Male III

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Last but not least,

Robyn, didn't you mention that they have big mouths? I knew that from my viejita, but I was able to capture it on film (eh, digital image) for the first time. I guess that is what you need when you eat snails in one bite.

Or maybe he is just sleepy

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male IV

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very nice pics i have just plain orange tailed one that i got from a friend. their okay i guess... but yah anyway

Red on all 3 points, now if what I read is right, that makes him a triple. That's what LFS told you too, so it would seem to be right. Everything on him looks redder, now he's not in the bag. Your female is very pretty & has more markings than mine, plus mine is more yellow I think. No blue lips on my female.

That is a great shot of his open mouth. Love it. Your pictures are so good and clear. My tank lights currently off, but I'll check for a slight bump on head, but I've not noticed it previously.

Beautiful looking fish Ingo.

Cheers
TW

he has somewhat of a hump on his forehead. Is that normal

Looked more close at my males head & what I noticed is that above his mouth & up to his eyes he has ridges (looks a bit like when someone raised their eybrows & maybe gets those lines - but more like folds of skin. Then a very slight flattening & rises again after his eyes. I think yours looks normal.

I looked at my females mouth, & maybe I can see just a hint of blue on her lips. Not a solid blue line though - only just parts show a hint of blue (maybe). She has the basic same shape lip as him, but so much smaller that it is hardly noticable.

Did these guys feed easily or you?

Cheers
TW

Thanks bratyboy2 and Robyn,

As I stated in your log, Robyn, your male has more red than mine in the fins. Given that my male is barely larger than the female, there are two things I conclude:

- He is not grown up yet, but she is. So he still has time to color up until adulthood hits.
- Maybe your female isn't all grown up yet and that is why you cannot see the blue lip.

Feeding: I fed them for the first time last night (I don't feed fish on the day they come out of the bag, too stressful for them to digest well).

I started off with a tropical fish flake mixe (I alway crunch the flakes to be smaller). Both fish did not come to the surface where the 3 resident Platies were eating away, but quite a few flakes were sucked under by the current from the HOB and they ate these. Messy eaters, I may say, I would guesstimate that over half of the food is expelled from the gills, maybe a sign that they don't really like it (yet).

Next I added some freeze dried blood worms, but they all floated. I oberseved one piece going down and that one was first eaten by the female (and expelled right after) and then by the male, also expelled. At least that one particular piece was not to their likings.

Ingo

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Thought this link might interest you http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/apistogramma_cacatuoides.php.

Maybe this one too http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1437

But I bet you'll tell me you read these already, right?

Cheers
TW

You know Robyn,

I haven't seen either or link before, thank you very much. Sometime today, if I have an hour or two to spare, I will peruse these links and many others to identify more closely what I exactly have there.

BTW, did you see Theresa's pictures of her Cacs in the photo booth? I find the female to look completely different than mine.

Ingo

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so have you gotten them to breed at all... im waiting for mine to in my pool filter sand tank

Hi bratyboy2,

Well - if you read my entries then you must have seen that I only got them two days ago, so take it easy

Give them some time to settle, I am not in a rush. If they want to breed, then I will let them. If not, fine as well.

Ingo

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Weekly Tank Update - Week 7

A few things have happened during this week, none of which are very dramatic, but worthwhile mentioning anyway. I will get to these points at the appropriate detail shot, so bare with me.

To start, here is a shot from last weekend, for comparison purposes:

Attached Image:

Last Week

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And here is the tank from last night, after maintenance and water change.

The first thing you may notice is a different look of the Barteri, and with it more light to the front left section. The second, and last, thing you may see is a change of parts of the wood positioning of the left group:

Attached Image:

Latest Full Tank Shot

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Before the water change, I notice a small section in the tank, confined to two to three leaves of the micros sword, on which thread algae (the longer kind, maybe staghorn) started to grow.

This area is right next to the spot (the rock to the right in the main shot) where I feed the Otos some cucumbers. I believe this is related. The one slice I added this week was completely eaten within 2 days.

Attached Image:

Some Threads

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I am rather certain that my water quality is currently a little worse than it used to be. The reason for this is that quite a few parts of the micro swords are deteriorating, most likely an unavoidable side effect of forming small plugs of them when planting as some sections of these plugs may get damaged or not planted properly.

Here you may be able to see some brown parts on the lower area of the swords:

Attached Image:

Swords Issue

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The next, and by far biggest issue of this week, was the discovery that the Barteri is disintegrating in two spots where it had sections that broke off during transport to my house.

The first sign was a dying leaf about a week ago, and this week another one followed and required me to take a closer look.

Attached Image:

Dying Barteri Section

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When I touched the area of the rhizome in which the leaf was dying I could feel that it was all mushy. I took the scissors and attempted to cut the rhizome back, under water. Now that was fatal. First of all, the scissors were not sharp enough to get a clean cut. Secondly, the whole Barteri came lose. Third, the wood of that group started to shift in the process

This is, in general, the one thing I don't like about lots of small braches that form a group, they shift all the time. Last week it was the right group, this week the left.

Back to the Barteri, I had to take it out of the tank, trim 2 sections way back, tie it to a rock, and place that one onto the left hill. This concluded in the new look of that area.

I don't know if that was enough to stop the disintegration of the plant, we will see. Here is a close-up of the group:

Attached Image:

Left Group

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And for completion purposes, here is a shot of the right group.

Oh, almost as important, but not captured in a picture, I discovered a life form on the tank glass, approximately 1 to 2 mm long, skinny, white, and moving quite fast. Copepods of some sort? Dangerous? How come?


Attached Image:

Right Group

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I think these animals have come in with the last plant order, I have to say that the micro sword was not the cleanest plant I ever received. Do you remember that I mentioned the mini rain worms that I discovered in the bucket after cleaning the plants (like tubifex worms)? Another passenger group that came in were snails, most likely common pond snails. For now they are not too bad yet, and in a few weeks I will have fish in the tank that will appreciate them as live food.

Attached Image:

Snail

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The last 2 shots are commited to the future residents of this tank, my new Apistos that I purchased as part of a trade in of 30 Espei from the 125G. These Apistos are currently in the 20G QT, but they are displayed here as this is their tank in the long run.

Here is the female:

Attached Image:

Female

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EDIT: Make sure to read the Weekly Update on the previous page, I have a few questions

And here is the male. So far, they stay mostly out of each others way in the QT. Once in a while the male slowly comes closer to the female until he is at her side, then he gives her a nudge and she swims away, not in a rush though. This, I believe, has nothing to do with mating, I believe he would like to occupy the hiding spot that she has at that moment as this never happens in the open water.

Attached Image:

Male

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Algae: Give it a big shot of Excel. Should turn red and go away.

White things: I think there was a thread about this not too long ago.

Female Apisto: Is that a snail on the righthand side eatting the wisteria?



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

did you see Theresa's pictures of her Cacs in the photo booth? I find the female to look completely different than mine.

Yes I did & I don't recognise my female amongst her photos either.

I tried hard to get a good shot of my girl to show you, but all turned out poor. Rather than clutter up your log, they are in my log http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/28921.2.htm?38# if you want to look. There are 3 of them, individually not very good, but maybe after you've viewed all 3, you may get an idea of how my girl looks.

Wish I could help on your other queries, but I know the more knowledge plant nerds will be able to help.

Re: breeding behaviour. I've noticed with both my apistos, that when the female is in the mood she tilts her body sideways at the male, flashing her belly at him. First noticed it with my bita girl, as she quite a passionate girl (either hates her mate or loves him) then watched for the same in the cacs. My female cac is doing it tonight, but the male is not taking the hint at the moment.

I wonder if you will see this tilting to the side movement of the female. Does your other apisto girl do it at all?

Cheers
TW

Wish I could help on your other queries, but I know the more knowledge plant nerds will be able to help

Hey, I'm no nerd. I play softball, coach soccer and bowl on a mens bowling team

Any who. This all started after you removed all those "weed" from the tank. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Sloooow moves. I don't believe in big changes to a tank at once. Tut, tut, none of your feable excuses about floating plants, yada, yada, yada.

Mimic nature, everything happens slowly. Tanks have to adjust to differences in plant mass and fish load. There is wiggle room off center, but there has to be balance.

I doubt if the cucumber feeding caused the algae. I know you and Robyn like to feed the little guys, but I don't think they need anything extra. I noticed alot of droppings in the tank. I do drop algae wafers in my tank from time to time because I'm in short supply of the stuff.



My Scapes

Hey,

I am not complaining about the algae (yet, ), I was simply stating that it was there. And it was in only one spot, too much of a coincidence to be not related to the cucumber (and maybe the bunch of poop that was nearby as all Otos must have eaten at least their own body weight in 2 days).

Wings, the snail is not eating the leaf per say, the leaf just happens to be in bad shape from the replant (didn't get good light before replant, was mixed in with Moss) and a snail just happened to eat on it.

Robyn, yes, my other girl does that as well, at least once in a while. I am not sure if this is a mating thing though. I would assume that the belly area of a fish is one of its most vulnerable areas. I assume that offering this area to another fish is a form of submission in general, showing that the other fish is accepted as the boss. Other animals do the same thing by offering their throat.

Ingo

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Well, that is a true bummer, I am so mad

The male Apisto is dead, I just found him in his cave. I assume his "hiding" was not a sign of mating or what not, he must have been sick. I will call the LFS tomorrow to see what they would have to say as even Tom, the main fish guy, found it a little odd that he was hiding in that tank (but he assumed it was because of mating stuff).

This is the worst nightmare, now I only have a female left, grrrrr

Ingo

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Sorry to hear about your loss. I lost a fish yesterday that has not been recorded in my log yet so I know it sucks. Look at it this way. Maybe the LFS will hook you up with a new male and throw in a female for super cheap? One can only hope though. Best wishes!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I'm so upset for you Ingo. I hope they will offer you another male - you had him for such a short time. Either that, or they refund you & take back the female. My fingers are crossed for another male though.

I felt close to these fish of yours. My heart dropped when I read your post. That really sucks.

Cheers
TW

Sorry to hear about the fish. I'm sure the store will do right by you. I never thought the fish looked great in the pictures, but I couldn't put my finger on it.



My Scapes

Ingo, don't be upset when I say this, but looking closely at pics of the male, I can maybe see what Tetratech is saying. I may be imagining it, but does the male look like his body is too curvy? If you can see what I think I can see (too curvy body) maybe you can take the pics to LFS as justification for a replacement pair.

When I bought mine, each mated pair was in a sep. tank. Was that the same where you bought them? If so, maybe you could argue that they take your female back & replace with a complete new mated pair. If they weren't paired up in this way, put your case forward for a replacment male. If you are a regular cusotmer, hopefully they will value your custom enough to oblige. Those few days you had him - it's just not fair to be now stuck with a lone female.

Cheers
TW

The algae looks like what some folks call carpet plant algae. I think it's a form of Utriculria.

It just seems to get into thick carpets of plants. I always had a problem with it with hairgrass. Never found a way to get rid of it except plucking it out. It never spreads beyond the base of carpet plants.

Sorry but the only cure I found was removing or seriously thinning the hairgrass.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf - thanks for the info on the carpet algae, I will keep that in mind when it starts to spread. The particular section displayed in the photo was the only one in the tank that has been infected so far, and that part was easily pulled out, so right now I am clean again.

All others - thanks for the support on the dead Apisto, it still upsets me. The outlook lof a replacement is rather dim and most likely costly as well, here are some points:

- The LFS has a big sign that says "No guarantee for fish"
- The LFS has at most (if at all) one pair of each species of Apistos (with the occasional exception), and I bought the one Caca pair
- The LFS fought me when I claimed that I got a sick Pearl Gourami a while back, I had to argue like mad over a $5 fish to get it refunded
- Online offers of fish are also for pairs only, I don't know if I am into the idea of using both "hills" in the tank as shelter for 2 females
- Online offers are usually young adults and I have a fully grown female at home

Nevertheless, I will give the LFS a call today and tell them what happens, then I usually get the spiel "bring in the fish and a water sample", and of course I threw out the fish (no freezer entry allowed - wife).

Thanks again,

Ingo

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LF,
Your not exactly a typical customer that loses a fish due to poor water quality and besides your Published
If all this fails tell them one day their gonna get a visit by a mysterious man in a trench coat who goes by the name of NOWHER

Switching to your plants. I had microsword along time ago back when I was probably a "BigFish" or something. You can't trim the tops is the correct. It's like any other sword plant.

My Scapes

Yes tetratech, you are right, I am not a typical customer. Let's see how far this will get me, I will keep you guys posted on the outcome of the phone call.

You know, I was looking at the micro swords yesterday and wondered about the same thing myself: "what would happen if I trimmed off the tops?" I am sure it would look nice, a neatly trimmed lawn in the tank. But seriously, what would be the consequences? Would the whole leaf die?

Ingo

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Funny thing about water testing. O.K. so you bring your sample in like some poor little kid who lost his goldfish and the LFS employee who probably isn't old enough to baby sit your kids let alone your fish, tells you it's high on nitrAtes that's why your fish died. Then you start explaining the who hi-tech, hi-fert, co2 planted tank thing and

My Scapes

The one time when I brought a water sample to the LFS, a long time ago, I measured all values before bringing it in, this was a low tech tank (29G) and all values were 0. I was told that I have a tiny amount of Ammonia (or Nitrite, don't remember) and that was why my Neons died

Tiny, as in not detectable, and they use the same kit (or worse) than I do.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey*shakes fish at LF and Tetratech*!

I'll stand up for the LFS employee, being one myself, and plenty old to babysit a couple of snot nosed kids. First we don't check for nitrAtes, as that is very rarely a cause of death from costomers, seriously. If it is you can tell from the pH which is at like 2. Ammonia, nitrIte, and pH is what we test. We ALWAYS either give cash back to the costomer for their purchase, if the water looks like crap, or get them a new fish. Our guarantee states that you have a week if you bring the receipt, the fish, and a seperate water sample. The water sample shouldn't be used to blame the costomer, but to determine if another fish goes home, that's acceptable. But lets be honest here, try going into wal-mart or something and ask for a refund without the product. That's a nobrainer. They won't give you anything but a laugh. Fish stores however are expected to still give money back. This is silliness, and something I have a beef with our store, because we will give money back without proof that they bought the fish at our store or that the fish even died. Sometimes you get an honest guy like LF that really lost his fish and tossed it, but most of the time I KNOW we are getting screwed.

Sorry this all comes from a year+ of getting harassed by costomers. Once I was even told that I shouldn't work there because I didn't know anything about one of the rarer fish we had in the store(the costomer obviously didn't know either, why ask right?). Like I should know everything about all the fish in all 320 tanks we have.

[/rant]

but still see what you can get them to do, we'd give you money back, or a new fish without even blinking an eye. AND we never sell our apistos as pairs.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

I would love to shop at your store, and to be helped by you would be my pleasure. As to my LFS:

- we'd give you money back, or a new fish without even blinking an eye. No No

- AND we never sell our apistos as pairs. No No

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well first off, my trenchcoat days are over, sorry i can't help you there LF.



But keep in mind Apisto Cac. is a harem breeder. Adding another M/F should work, unless you just don't want the dynamic. The females may fight a bit at first but you have plenty of room in that tank, I don't see it being a problem. The choice is yours, obviously, but a new male would gladly take to the old female for breeding purposes, it's just in their nature.

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Back in the saddle!

I'll stand up for the LFS employee, being one myself, and plenty old to babysit a couple of snot nosed kids. First we don't check for nitrAtes, as that is very rarely a cause of death from costomers, seriously. If it is you can tell from the pH which is at like 2.

Matty, I know you work in a LFS and this was not meant as a blanket statement for all stores so please don't take it personally, but it does happen, because it happened to me. The store was trying anything to not give me credit. And there are at times very young employees working there, but there are also older gentlemen as well. Even very seasoned LFS stores that specialize in saltwater fish, when I tell them I'm adding no3 to my planted tank they look my like I have 3 heads.

I put this in the "With Planted Aquaria throw alot of pricipals out the window (cycling, anerobic bacteria impact, nitrates, etc.)"

My Scapes

The idea of simply getting a second pair, and as such ending up with 1m / 2f, has crossed my mind. In detail, the considerations are:

- both females will set up breeding quarters, I would assume logically that they would be under or around the individual wood groups. As such both breeding spots in the tank are taken and don't leave space for another kind of "herder", like Rams.

- I am not sure about aggression between females when competing for one male. Assuming that a new pair would ultimately conclude in one female being younger than the other, this could become a problem.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK,

I have news:

I just hung up the phone from a talk to the LFS, with their senior fish guy. He remembered that the male was a little strange and had no issues giving me store credit for it. He even gave me options:

- return the female and get $50 credit
- get another pair (when available) and pay only for the female
- get another male only (when available)

Now, that was a nice and almost unexpected move on their end and puts my ranting to shame

So, what to do? I like the female, she has a very nice coloration and markings (except a yellow body though yet), but what if she would be sick too (behaves normal and feeds nicely)?

Thanks for informative input,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club