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  L# LITTLE_FISH 40G Breeder Log
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superlion
 
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That looks like something from the nightmare I had last night...

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Post InfoPosted 27-Sep-2006 01:19Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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What is your CO2 at? Might be a good idea to bump it up a bit more. I know that tetra and I really push it on our fish.

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Post InfoPosted 27-Sep-2006 01:27Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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That looks like something from the nightmare I had last night
- good comment, pretty much sums up my feelings about it as well, superlion

Wings - and all the others on the same wave length - I guess I will have to get the measuring tools out then. I will let you know what I find out.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Sep-2006 14:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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I am really intrested to see where you are at with the CO2. I keep my over 30ppm almost all the time.

I am really sorry to see that stuff in your tank. It is really not that pretty.

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Post InfoPosted 27-Sep-2006 15:00Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Quick Update on the Bolbitis and its algae.

The first action of tonight was a complete trim of all infected bolbitis leaves, which are pretty much all the plant had when I got it (coincidence, I don't think so).

Here is the full tank afterwards (in an angle, right Matty?)

Attached Image:

Full Tank



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Post InfoPosted 27-Sep-2006 23:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
See Last Page For Full Tank Shot After Tonights Trimming

Here is a close-up of the new trimmed area. As you can see, some new growth is still there, actually that one does not look infested at all.

Also, you may notice the first visible Crypt Wndtii leaves in the background:

Attached Image:

Closer Look



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Post InfoPosted 28-Sep-2006 00:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Home early today?

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Post InfoPosted 28-Sep-2006 00:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Then I did some water testing for N, ph, and KH

NO3 = above 40ppm
ph = less than 6.6, but more than 6.4 - so let's assume 6.6
KH = 5DH

So, this is after only 7.5h of lights on, way not the end of the light cycle.

And it means -->>> at least a CO2 of 38ppm, and that is on the safe side of measuring.

Any thoughts?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Sep-2006 00:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
I never really had a problem with BBA. I got it when I didn't take care of the tank, and when I trimmed it all out, it never came back after I started paying attention to it again. I'd just make sure all the nutrients were there and it wouldn't grow anymore. What I didn't get would stay there, kinda in limbo I guess.

EDIT: I always forget something I mean to say. It was, yep, I like the angle shots. It shows the depth off well. Especially in a tank with wood blocking a lot of the smaller plants from view.



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Post InfoPosted 28-Sep-2006 01:37Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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And it means -->>> at least a CO2 of 38ppm, and that is on the safe side of measuring.


LF,
Take a sample of your water and aerate it for an hour or so and then test it. This should bring your co2 in line with the atmosphere. You can't go by your tap because it could come out with high co2. The true PH of your tank without co2 injection is what it would be in your tank after it's exposed to the air for awhile. Whatever the PH is after you aerate (or let stand for 24hrs) you should use your co2 to target one full point lower.



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Post InfoPosted 28-Sep-2006 02:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
This is the PH reading from my 72g (yellow) and from my nano (dark green) The nano reading basically represents a degassed sample from the 72g. You could see the difference in the readings. Hard to tell exactly what the difference is but I think the 72g sample is off the chart and the nano sample is quite dark. But you really can't tell exactly what the ph is. This is why you must test the limits of your co2 and then stop when the fish show signs of distress. This would probably be the most beneficial level of co2 for your tank. Why not slowly up it everyday until you see a problem? Of course you have to be able to live the lifestyle

Attached Image:


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Post InfoPosted 28-Sep-2006 03:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Tetratech,

I don't have too much time, gotta go and read the kids a bedtime story.

Anyway, quick update on the tank, two fold:

1) I just took a tab water sample to let it degas for 24h. The current tab reading has a ph of 7.2

2) Strange things are happening in the tank. When I came home I could not find either or female. A few minutes later I saw one emerge on the left tank side. As soon as the male saw her he chased her away aggressively. Another few minutes later I saw the other female emerge from a small gap in the right hill. Here, the male was displaying to her, and she did the same to him, turning her body 90 degrees sideways when close to him. Soon after she went back into that gap. During the next maybe 25 min the chasing of one and the display with the other repeated itself about 3 times each. He doesn't let the other female to the right side of the tank at all.

I guess we got something going here, albeit I have to say that the selected female is not bright yellow, more of a pale yellow (while the chased one is not yellow at all).

Now its story time,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Sep-2006 01:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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1) I just took a tab water sample to let it degas for 24h. The current tab reading has a ph of 7.2

That makes perfect sense. Since there is co2 coming right out of the tap it would makes sense that degassed your ph is 7.2. So you should be shooting for a ph of around 6.2, which is lower than you current ph which is telling me your co2 is too low.

Hope the kiddies enjoyed their story. Does it the story have a little fish in it?/:'

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Post InfoPosted 29-Sep-2006 01:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Does it the story have a little fish in it?
Yeah, the one who reads it is LITTLE_FISH

But no tetratech - I think you misunderstood. Or maybe I don't get it. I just took the sample from the tab last night, it was not degassed yet. I will have to measure the sample again tonight to find out what the degassed value is.

Also, this sample does not contain any baking soda that I add to my tank to raise the KH. When you say it should be in the end around 6.2 in the tank, how can this be completely independent of the KH as I would have a much higher CO2 at 5DH than at 2DH?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Sep-2006 09:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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But no tetratech - I think you misunderstood. Or maybe I don't get it. I just took the sample from the tab last night, it was not degassed yet. I will have to measure the sample again tonight to find out what the degassed value is.

I guess we misunderstood each other Take a waster sample from the tank and let it degass for 24hrs or aerate it for a few hours. Now you will have the PH of your tank without the co2. Whatever it is, try for a 1 pt drop by adjusting your co2 rate.


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Post InfoPosted 29-Sep-2006 13:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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try for a 1 pt drop by adjusting your co2 rate
Call me a silly old man, or anything, but I still don't get that part.

Isn't the KH the component in the water that defines how much CO2 can be bound to the water (sorry, probably not the right Chemical terms here)? Meaning - Having a sample degas that has a Kh of 2 should result in a higher ph after 24h than a sample with a KH of 5?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Sep-2006 14:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

You KH is what fights to keep the PH from droping to fast. Thus the higher the KH the more CO2 you will have to pump in to drop the PH and just the oposit for a lower KH. In my case I have a very high KH of around 16 so it takes me more CO2 to get the PH down far enough to show enough CO2 in the water colum. Does that help? That is my best understandings of how it works. I am probably a bit off though.

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Post InfoPosted 29-Sep-2006 14:49Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
From here: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

Myth: A Low KH results in a larger pH swing when adding CO2.

Many people are under the mistaken impression that a low KH results in large pH swings when adding CO2, while raising the KH will result in smaller pH swings. This is not the case. The KH will move the start and end pH values, but the pH swing will be the same for a given level of CO2. You can see this in the chart below, or using the calculation:

Case 1: Assume a KH of 15 degrees, and a starting CO2 level of 4.5ppm, which would result in a pH of 8.0. If we then add CO2, to increase the CO2 level to 28ppm, that would drop the pH down to 7.2, for a pH shift of .8.

Case 2: Assume a KH of just 1.5 degrees, and a starting CO2 level of 4.5ppm, which would result in a pH of 7.0. If we then add CO2, to increase the CO2 level to 28ppm, that would drop the pH down to 6.2, for a pH shift of .8, the exact same as in case 1.

One possible explanation for this myth is that many copies of this pH chart skip some of the higher pH values, for example, jumping from pH 7.4 to a pH of 8.0. If the reader didn't pay careful attention, they might mis-interpret the size of the pH swing. I specifically made sure to include all pH values, between 6 and 8, in steps of .2.

This relationship will break down at extremely low KH levels (below 1 degree), when there isn't enough carbonate to completely buffer the acids present. In that case, the pH can drop quickly and dramatically. But if the KH is 1 degree or higher, then the size of the pH swing when injecting CO2 will be determined only by the amount of CO2 dissolved in the water.


Tetratech's got the right idea with this degassing thing, though telling someone to drop 1 point pH can be a tiny bit inaccurate like I pointed out earlier in some cases depending on starting pH and CO2. However, in most cases 1 full point of pH will be about 30 ppm of CO2. This goes for all values of KH except for those under 1KH. Other than at very small values(when it can't buffer), KH has no effect except moving the starting and ending values of pH.



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Post InfoPosted 29-Sep-2006 17:49Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
OK Matty,

So here is then what I should do:

- Take a water sample from the tank tonight, best would be just before lights out (that is also when the CO2 shuts off)
- Measure its ph
- Wait 24h
- Measure its ph

I can completely neglect the KH in the sample, right? Also, given that I had measured a ph of at max 6.6 and a KH of around 5, which by the chart should bring me to a CO2 level of around 38ppm, I should see after 24h a ph of at least 7.6. Right? And what is wrong if I see a lower ph value? Most likely the KH test kit? Maybe the ph test kit? Anything else?

Ingo

EDIT: Matty, did you read a few posts up news regarding the Apistos?


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Post InfoPosted 29-Sep-2006 20:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
DeletedPosted 29-Sep-2006 21:38
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mattyboombatty
 
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GEAARG!!

I just deleted my post on accident.

Errmm lesse if I can remember what I just posted. Yes you got it right about the Degassing method now. I think your other test was a bit skewed because you used tap, and you alter your tank water. That's not the right way to test. You gotta test the tank water twice, once before and once after 24 hrs. Or test the degassed waterafter 24 hrs and then take a sample from your tank at the same time to compare side by side.

In regards to the apistos, I think the females are still young. Not small, but really too young to breed successfully. The male is trying to court one of them and that's why he doesn't really want the other around. If I remember right the harem breeders will take turns with the females. Not all at once but one after the other. So I don't think it's anything to worry about it such a large tank, unless it's disrupting meals for the odd female out.

Oh yea and please go vote for my new plant profile; E. tenellus.



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Post InfoPosted 29-Sep-2006 21:49Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,
Just test the damn water and drop it by about 1 pt ph by slowing adjusting your co2 output. make sure your watch your fish by living the lifestyle for one weekend

BTW - Aquarium Adventure just got in Agazzi double-red, orange hi-fin cacs (looked just like yours) and your viejia. I don't know if the viejia were 1,2 or 3, they are not that sophicated. There's a note on the tank that says consult cichlid book which you could find in the store's library. Yes all the aquarium has a library with a couch.

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Post InfoPosted 29-Sep-2006 23:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks to both of you

I tested the sample water from the tank last night, just before lights out. I had a ph of 6.4. so we will see what the ph of that sample is tonight.

On the Apisto frontier: The "selected" female is clearly defending some area in the right hill. She comes out sparely and when she does she is all dark. The only time she shifts colors to a more pale yellow (within 1 to 2 seconds, btw) is when the male is really near by. Unfortunately, during feeding she ventured off and I saw the other female sneak into that cave twice . The third time around she was there and chased her away. Looks like breeding to me, albeit I have no idea if this is only a training session or the real deal.

Ingo

EDIT: Tetratech - yeah, I have seen their library, very nice touch. Did you feel the urge to buy more apistos?


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Post InfoPosted 30-Sep-2006 13:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Quick Update:

Because of scheduling issues, I took made the second ph test 23h after the initial one. I don't think it will make much of a difference, right?

Anyway, I got a blue color that I would place between 7.2 and 7.6, there are no color steps on the chart between these two values.

Let us assume it is 7.4, ok? Means one above what it was last night. That means now 30ppm, right? Sounds good to me. When I measured my CO2 directly I came up with about 38ppm minimum. Sounds about the same.

Opinions?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Oct-2006 01:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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It wouldn't hurt to bump it up just a little bit. I think I am running mine at around 48 or a bit higher for my night time target. Fish seem to be fine.

For you I am guess a Ph of 6.4 or 6.5 would be fine.

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Post InfoPosted 01-Oct-2006 03:25Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hi LF, that will be exciting if you have eggs already. If she's young, don't worry if the first bunch don't make it though.

Keep us posted on the plants & the romance in your tank.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 01-Oct-2006 13:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wings - my ph at night is 6.4, so I would be right on, right?

Robyn - Yeah, I am not getting my hopes on fry up as of yet, although the female is for sure defending something in that hill and barely comes out at all, usually only to chase the other female away or to grab a quick bit of food.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 16

This week has seen the major cutting back of the bolbitis. I am not convinced that the issues with it came from bad water parameters, although all signs of algae on it indicate so. Bolbitis is known to take quite a while to settle. I assume that the unsettled plant was not able to provide the leaves with whatever they need as the plant in itself used it all up to settle on the wood. Time will tell, so far the new growth looks still good.

Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Last Weekend



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Post InfoPosted 01-Oct-2006 15:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And here is the tank now. As you may notice, I did a few more minor changes to the plants. I removed all micro swords from the front left and replaced them with the last Blyxa I had in the 125G (was always intended to end up in the 40G), and two stems of Wisteria.

Attached Image:

Now



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Post InfoPosted 01-Oct-2006 15:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a closer look at this group. Notice the Oto in the center of the picture on the substrate. If you have any idea how large Blyxa is then you can imagine how small the Oto still is. I have been very lucky with them so far, I would have never thought that I can manage to keep them all alive.

Attached Image:

Closer Look



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Post InfoPosted 01-Oct-2006 15:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I wish I could show you a picture of the "breeding" female (or whatever she is doing in that hill), but she barely comes out. When she does she is almost all black, the warning or scared color of the Apistos that I have. And usually she is chasing the other female away at high speed.

The male now begins to switch between chasing that female and courting her. Here she is, showing some yellowing as well:

Attached Image:

Other Female



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Post InfoPosted 01-Oct-2006 15:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH

Look at bottom of previous page to view small changes in the scape

One of the best things of having females in the tank is that the male really likes to spread his finnage. This makes him so much more handsome looking

Here he is:

Attached Image:

Male Cac



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Post InfoPosted 01-Oct-2006 15:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here he is, discovering that the "other" female is coming very close to the "nest" of the breeding female. He sneaks up on her very slowly. As you may see, when you compare her coloration in this shot to the one two above, the black markings on her side are gone. I am amazed how fast they can change their looks.

Attached Image:

Watch Out Where You Are Going



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Post InfoPosted 01-Oct-2006 15:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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On the other hand, here he is, but this time it is more courtship than chase. There, her black side area is visible again.

This is it for this weeks update,

Have Fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Hello There, Honey



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Post InfoPosted 01-Oct-2006 15:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Ingo,
The tank looks much better with the removal of the microswords. I like the different texures of leaves, etc around the wood. I'm not sure about the blyxa center, yet. It might be too tall and take away from the wood focals.

Your male cac sure is flaming Not that there's anything wrong with that.

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LITTLE_FISH
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I'm not sure about the blyxa center, yet.
Good point tetratech, and thanks for the input.

I am glad that this tank allows me to perform small changes without having to mess with the rest of the tank (unlike the big tank). I can imagine that the one Blyxa right in the center might be the culprit for the fusing of the two groups (see picture), maybe I will move it in a while, when I know better how the rest of the tank will be structured. I come more and more to the conclusion that the micro sword was not a good choice for this tank.

About the Apisto: I am curious, did the one that they sell as a high fin in your LFS have an even longer dorsal fin?

Ingo

Attached Image:

Remove This One?



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Post InfoPosted 01-Oct-2006 16:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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6.4 ph with a Kh of 5 gives you 60ppm CO2. I think that is pretty good. How are your fish with it? I don't know if you would want to push it much more.

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Post InfoPosted 02-Oct-2006 03:16Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Your male cac sure is flaming


I think you mean metrosexual, he likes females, but likes to look pretty too.

Nice update on the cacs, LF. It looks like they are starting to settle in nicely. Soon they'll all have their own positions in the heirarchy and everything will go smoothly, hopefully even the breeding.

From what I can tell it looks like the bolbitus does have some nice new growth on it. Those are nice when they settle in and get healthy. I hope they make it for you.

Sounds like the CO2 is up where it should be. I guess that leaves the NJ tap water.



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Post InfoPosted 02-Oct-2006 05:10Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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How are your fish with it? I don't know if you would want to push it much more.
Yeah, I think I have enough evidence to show that I am at least at 30ppm, if not more. Fish so far are fine, but I would like to test the "not-so-settled-plant --- and-therefore-algae" theory a little longer. If all else fails then I could maybe try other things.

Matty - yes, the new bolbitis growth is looking good so far. I really hope that the plant will do better now, but one thing I will have to wait out a for a while is to see what happens to leaves once they reach the hight of the original ones. Thanks for the thumbs up on the Cacs ,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-Oct-2006 16:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Last night, I studied the behavior of the Apistos some more. Now I am thinking that there may not be any actual breeding.

The second female made the left hill her home now. Whenever the male swims by she comes out and presents herself sideways to him, and as soon as he comes close she seem to try to lure him into the cave under the hill.

Sometimes, when he is over the right hill, the first female shows similar behavior, although she seems to be more eager to get back into the cave.

Now I assume that this is how female Cacs behave in general, finding their spot for a potential spawn and then trying to get a male to come.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 03-Oct-2006 13:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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I didn't really think they would already be breeding, but it seems like everybody is getting ready and settled in. I say give them some time. It's also very important they are fed well, with food almost always available. This is kind of opposite of what you want in a nice planted tank though. Situations like this always make me wish that protein skimmers worked on FW tanks. So maybe if they don't breed with regular feedings after a couple months then maybe kick it up a bit if you don't mind the possibility of extra algae from the increased feedings. Maybe even go to the live baby brine shrimp. That usually gets fish pretty perky.



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Post InfoPosted 03-Oct-2006 16:18Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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I think it was Ben that was talking about some people using skimmers on their FW planted tanks. I would have to do some digging around to find out what exacly it was about but I think it had to do with the scum layer you sometimes get on the tank. Right now I don't really have to time or energy to look it up but I thought I would throw it out there.



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Post InfoPosted 05-Oct-2006 13:58Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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That's a surface skimmer. It pulls water off the top instead of taking water from the middle of the column. Yep, it's used to get rid of that surface scum. A protein skimmer is a totally different story and operates on increased surface tension of salt water. It makes lots of little bubbles and proteins rideon those bubbles into a collection cup. The proteins will contain nitrogenous wastes and Phosphates and things not yet broken down into ammonia and other simple wastes.



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Post InfoPosted 05-Oct-2006 16:05Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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That's a surface skimmer ... A protein skimmer ...
That is why it is good to have a dark side person here in the forum

On the tank side, there is nothing new to report. The right hill female barely comes out of her cave while the left hill female is obviously trying to get the male to come into the cave with her, which he doesn't. She switched colors really quickly from a drab gray to a medium yellow (not as bright as my viejita female is all the time) when the male is near by.

Ingo


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That's a surface skimmer.


Thanks Mr. Darkside! What would we do with out you!

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Post InfoPosted 06-Oct-2006 13:56Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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What would we do with out you!


Try to get rid of surface scum with a $100 SW contraption?





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Post InfoPosted 06-Oct-2006 15:19Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
Try to get rid of surface scum with a $100 SW contraption?





:: calls BigAls to cancel order ::









Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 06-Oct-2006 15:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well,

I am a father again



When I came home tonight the female of the right hill was out more often than before, but mostly active all the way to the right of the tank. Upon closer inspections I found her hovering over a group of wigglers. Hard to tell how many are there, I think to have seen maybe 5

I know, it will be hard for these little guys to make it, but at least my guessing on what is going on was correct. The little ones are maybe 1mm long and white, occasionally lifting themselves off the ground about an half an inch or so. This is also the first time for me that I see a mother fish in action, picking up one guy that strayed too far from the spot where the others where and then spitting him back out into the center of the group.

I tried to get a shot of it, but it is really hard. Here is a picture as good as it gets for the time being. The white thing in the circle is one fry.

Question:
Should I do a water change on the tank tomorrow?

Ingo

Attached Image:

Fry in Circle



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Post InfoPosted 06-Oct-2006 23:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hi,
I'd pass on the water change. Many times the parents
perceive the ruckus as a threat and they actually eat
their fry.

Frank


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Post InfoPosted 07-Oct-2006 00:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Congratulations grandpa. I had a sneaky feeling this was what was going on. My female became scarce during the egg guarding period too. Came out for food & short appearances, but mainly was unseen till she brought her brood out. It makes the tank really interesting when you are watching her with them. I could watch mum & fry for ages - but then, maybe I need to get a life.

The advice I got when I had my apisto fry was that they require really clean water & that you do frequent small changes, but take it from the top water column. No gravel vacuuming & such. If you are not target feeding with BBS, the water issue may not be so crucial for you. Usually, if you are target feeding them BBS 3 times a day, there is waste & you need to clean it. If you are just going to let things happen, as they happen & let the fry try to find food in the tank, I don't think frequent cleaning is required. My females never ate their fry (that I saw) but I know that it does happen. Some say even the sudden turning on & off of the lights can spook her into making such a mistake. That was why I put a little moon light there. You can either have it going the whole time the other lights are off (it helps her to keep away the other female, if she is a fry eater). Or you could just have it go on for a little bit before & after the main lights turn on & off. The change over then is not so sudden.

5 or 6 was all I got from my girl's 1st try, but her next try was just over 20.

Fingers crossed for you Ingo. Keep us posted on this exciting development. I hope some make it.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 07-Oct-2006 08:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Frank and Robyn,

I will take a closer look at the situation today and decide on the fly if I should do a water change or not. I certainly would not like to risk algae issues just because there may be a chance that some fry are still alive. If I do a water change then I will get the water from the top of the tank.

I am also thinking about soaking some flakes in water to almost dissolve them and then use a dropper to spot feed the mix.

I will keep you posted,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Oct-2006 12:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hey congrats Ingo. Looks like the females were a little older than I thought. I agree that frequent water changes are the way to go. BBS just fed in general would be a good idea IMO. The adults will eat it too. For the planted tank, I'd just feed it sparsely though, like you said overfeeding is going to cause algae, unless you want to go ahead with the breeding that is.

So I don't know if we got an answer of if you were going to let them try to find food on thier own or if you were going to pamper them?



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Post InfoPosted 07-Oct-2006 16:21Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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So I don't know if we got an answer of if you were going to let them try to find food on thier own or if you were going to pamper them?
Given that I am not in posession of BBS, the answer is simple, they are on their own .

It worked with the Espei, but of course I saw the major population explosion in that tank when there was still some diatoms available to munch on.

We will see what happens, and yes, I will do a water change today. Maybe I even continue some replanting on the opposite side of the tank, this may stir up some eatable gunk for the fry. But I think I have currently no more plants available to replace the micro sword. I will see.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Oct-2006 16:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well, here is the good news and the bad news:

Good: the water change went well, I could not see any issues with the female.

Bad: now I see that the male has found the fry and he finds them tasty

I only see 5 left where there were at least around 10 a few hours ago.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Oct-2006 23:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Naughty daddy

Did the mum give him "what for" for his error. Usually both are good parents, so that's a shame. Are you sure dad ate them - did you see it? These fry are very fragile & not easy to raise from what I've been told & what I've found by experience. If you saw him red handed having a snack there can be no doubt, but if not, he may not be to blame. Remember, in the end all of mine were removed to grow out tanks (by the fish guy & some by me). One by one, they just died.

Also, do you have frozen BBS over there? I have found one brand that sells it & have used it. I think live BBS stimulates fry more with their swimming, but the frozen will still move around a little with the current - but the waste does tend to sink.

Re softening the flakes. You'll still need to crumble the flakes really well before you soak them. These guys have tiny, tiny mouths.

Don't be downhearted if none of the remaining 5 make it. Didn't take long for this batch to arrive, so I'm sure it won't take long for the next batch either.

Good luck & keep us posted.

Cheers
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Post InfoPosted 08-Oct-2006 01:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Robyn,

Yeah, I have seen it . The female did flash him to go away, but when he intruded anyway she was overwhelmed and let him have his pickings. Just before dinner last night I did not see any fry anymore

Weekly Tank Update - Week 17

Not much has happend with this tank during the last week, except that my theory on breeding activity has been validated. But, as stated above, it went as fast as it came. On a positive note, the other female stays now mostly inside the hill on the left, making me believe she is only a few days behind the one on the right. How many batches will the male eat? I am considering removing him if he keeps on doing that.

I did some minor changes to the tank during the maintenance though, you will see them in a later picture.

Here is the full tank now:

Attached Image:

Now



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Post InfoPosted 08-Oct-2006 12:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a close-up of the nest of the fry, with the female over it. At this point there were still a few fry in there, but they are sooooo small that they don't show in the shot. BTW, this is not the spot where the eggs were, they were hidden much deeper inside the hill. She brought the fry out there for whatever reason.

Attached Image:

Female



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Post InfoPosted 08-Oct-2006 12:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is the part that I changed this weekend. I removed even more micro swords and replaced them with some very small klippings of Hygro that I had left from the 125G trimming. They are now lined up on the left short tank side:

BTW, behind the rock is the cave of the other female.

Attached Image:

New Area



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Post InfoPosted 08-Oct-2006 12:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a full shot of the tank in a slight angle to show the depth a little better. BTW, algae has this week not been a major issue, the new bolbitis growth still seems fine, although it is not as high as the old one yet.

Attached Image:

Front Angle



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Post InfoPosted 08-Oct-2006 12:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is the center area of the tank from the front, with the one fish in it that makes me a little angry these days. As pretty as he is, seems like his belly has more to say than his parental istincts. I wonder if the water change had something to do with it as before he never got close to the fry.

Attached Image:

Male in Center



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Post InfoPosted 08-Oct-2006 12:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Last picture, a look from the back of the tank, also showing the 125 and the 29

I think within the next few weeks I will keep on reducing the micro swords until there are none left. For this tank it was certainly the wrong plant.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Back and Other Tanks



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Post InfoPosted 08-Oct-2006 12:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
That is too bad that he is a fry eater, instead of working as a team with wife no. 1. Maybe as the female matures, she will become confident enough not to allow him to do this. Matty believes she is young I think, so she probably needs to mature a bit more & get used to the idea of defending - even against her larger mate.

Lets see how he does with wife no. 2.

My favourite shot is the tank's frontal angle. I like the little triangle of space in between --- what are they --- the micro swords? If so, I hope you leave these ones in the tank. This is a really nice looking tank.

Cheers
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Thanks Robyn,

Yeah, let us hope they will beat the crap out of him if he tries that again.
what are they --- the micro swords?
That would be blyxa, you have it as well

Thanks for the compliments,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 08-Oct-2006 13:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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That would be blyxa, you have it as well


So the micro swords are to the left & right?

Cheers
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Robyn,

If you look at the last picture, labeled "Back and Other Tanks", you will see the micro swords on the left third and the right-most areas. The blyxa in the middle is separating the swords.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 08-Oct-2006 14:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
I like all the angles Ingo . The one with the other tanks behind it is really cool.

I'd say give them a few tries, maybe don't try to sneak in a water change this time and see what happens.

As for the new scape, I'm not sure that the hygro will be the best on the open veiwable side, that stuff can get so hairy as to block out the view from that side. But I'm sure it will fill that space functionally as it's a fast grower. Maybe if you keep it cut short like it is now, it could continue to look great there. You're right about the microswords. They look to me like they keep growing up as well. Weird plant, I can't say I ever cared for it, not just in your tank, in mine too. Mine was even starting to spread out and I still took it out. Blah.

I agree about the blyxa. I still need to get myself some of that. I'm just going to wait until I kick the algae.

Your tank on the other hand, looks very algae free. Very nice.



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Post InfoPosted 08-Oct-2006 16:26Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Just wrote a whole post and then deleted it

Basically - Tank looks FABULOUS. ]


please can I have your permission to print off some of the photos in this thread to show the guy at my LFS?

I won't copy it but its looks so nice and well can I please?

Its a little bigger then my tank but it gives me a vague plan.

GFG

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Post InfoPosted 08-Oct-2006 16:56Profile Homepage Yahoo PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks everybody,

Matty - yeah, the hygro will not look good over time in that spot, I am 100% with you. But, having had some clippings from the 125G I thought it looks for the time better than the micro sword does. Yes, when I pulled out my sword I had up to maybe 8 inches of runners hanging on it.

The female Apisto has abandoned the breeding spot and is courting the male again. I guess this means that I can be certain that there are no survivors. The other female is trying now, we will see how that goes.

GFG - Thanks for the compliments. Sure, go ahead and show off my tank But you will have to write more to my thread than "Tank looks FABULOUS."

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 08-Oct-2006 22:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I had typed loads! and then the stupid internet froze.




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Post InfoPosted 08-Oct-2006 23:44Profile Homepage Yahoo PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
you will see the micro swords on the left third and the right-most areas
Thanks LF. These micro swords remind me a little of my hair grass or lilly grass I have. I'm glad that it's not the blyxa that you are going to remove. I like the little separations you've made with them.

Yeah, I agree maybe try it without the water changes this time. I don't think water quality issues are quite as important, if you aren't target feeding. The target feeding does cause extra waste, which you need to deal with. I was doing small water changes every 2nd day when I was feeding with BBS. You're not doing that, so miss a weekly water change & see if it makes a difference to his behaviour. If he still snacks (and I've heard that it can become a habit) maybe temporarily removing him may be the only option, if you want to save fry & the female is not yet able to defend against him.

Cheers
TW
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks GFG and Robyn,

The issue with water changes is less one of pollution from fish waste and food, as the tank is now really lightly stocked, but more of a problem of plant fertilization. I have higher N and P values in my tank that rely on weekly water changes for being reset. I would have to lower my dosages in advance so I don't drive Nitrates up too high.

Ingo

PS: did a 20G Ingo-Style overhaul, gonna go and post the pictures there now


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Long time no post, so here is one:

The second female did indeed breed under the hill on the left of the tank. I guess moving fry once hetched is a common thing among Apistos, at least in my time. This female moved them all the way to the middle of the tank, between the center group of Blyxa and the extended arm of a piece of driftwood. Again, it is a rather open spot.

She seems to have more resolve in defending that spot, she chases all Otos away and even nudged a snail so many times that it changed direction and moved somewhere else. The male is coming close once in a while and she holds him off so far, we will see for how long.

I have only seen one wiggler in there, so not much hope for more.

I know it is a crappy photo, but it is the best I got. She is sitting in there and watches for intruders.

Ingo

Attached Image:

Nest



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NowherMan6
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Congrats on the breeding again

If this is the first time for them they may not get it yet. After a few spawns the male will eventually figure it out, or so I've read. In the mean time, enjoy the guarding behavior - I always got a good laugh out of my brevis pair pitcking up MTS nearly the size of them and spitting them out on the other side of the tank


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TW
 
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Finger crossed, Ingo. Congratulations again.

Cheers
TW
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goldfishgeek
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oooo exciting.

Good Luck Ingo.
GFG

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LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks NowherMan6, Robyn, and GFG for the good luck wishes, but you are too late already.

When I came home last night the female was perusing the tank again, not paying attention to the "nest" she was protecting so carefully a day earlier.

At least we know one thing for sure by now, both females and the male are fertile.

And I can do my water change today without worrying.

Have fun,

Ingo


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TW
 
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Bummer. Me thinks these apisto babies are not so easy to raise.

Better luck next time.

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TW
Post InfoPosted 14-Oct-2006 13:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Can't expect much from first clutches. All cichlids are like that. They'll learn, give 'em a few tries.



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LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks folks,

Don't worry too much for me, I see the fry as a nice side-effect of the tank and not its main purpose. If I will have fry growing up then this would be awesome, but if not then I will be ok as well.

On to the main topic:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 18

Nothing happened this week, kinda boring I have to say. The only event was the breeding attempt of the second female, producing wigglers but nothing more.

Here is the tank two weeks ago, for comparison:

Attached Image:

2 Weeks Ago



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LITTLE_FISH
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And here is the tank today, some things have changed a little since then. For one thing, the micros on the way left have been replaced with hygro. One can also see how much the Pearl Grass on the right front has grown. I did perform a little trimming on the left part of it and planted some on the left side of the tank.

Here is the tank now:

Attached Image:

Now



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LITTLE_FISH
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Forgot to mention, you may also have noticed the duck weed on the top. I have it now in my 29, 125, and this one. It didn't work on the 20 though as it got sucked into the filter intakes too much.

Here is an angle shot from the front:

Attached Image:

Angle Front



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Look At The Full Frontal Shot On The Last Page, Please

And here is the angle shot from the back. If you look carfully at the middle of the tank you may see the fins of the male Apisto. That is the spot where the second female brought her fry this week:


Attached Image:

Back Angle



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A few plant details, if you don't mind.

Here is the small Pearl Grass planting on the left of the tank that I trimmed off the right group. Also note the snails on the botton

Attached Image:

Pearl Grass



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LITTLE_FISH
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The snails are serving as a nice live snack for the Apistos, although only the really small ones are eaten. So some large ones are good to keep the food source going

And these are working on that:

Attached Image:

Snails Making Out



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LITTLE_FISH
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The last pure plant shot is, of course, another Anubias flower. If I have any success with something at all then it is the constant production of them. Currently, I have at least 4 of them in the tank, in various stages.

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Nana



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Here is a plant shot with Apistos way out of focus

The Blyxa sits in the middle of the tank and is partially shaded by the wood branches above. I assume that is why it is much greener that the others. In the back you can make out the male Apisto showing off to the female (that you may notice) in the front.

Attached Image:

Blyxa With Apistos



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LITTLE_FISH
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Talking about Apistos, I have not shown the females in quite a while as both were busy with the fry stuff. Here is the one that owns the left hill, the one that bred second. She seems to dominate the tank now, except for the male of course

Attached Image:

Left Hill Female



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And here is the female that lives in the right hill. She is having a hard time right now with the male, he is chasing her away pretty badly. I don't know why that is though as she was the first one he mated with.

I guess it will get better at some point.

Attached Image:

Right Hill Female



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The last two picturs are for the other fish in the tank,the Otos of which I have not lost even one. This to me is the greatest surprise I have to say, I must have gotten really lucky.

Attached Image:

Oto



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LITTLE_FISH
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You may remember that I initially supplemented their food with cucumber slices, but I have not done this in quite a while. I am sure that by now the tank has enough small algae for them to eat, otherwise I would not know where this belly would be coming from.

That's it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Oto Belly



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Sounds like things are going well in there & the apisto gang are learning their place in the hierarchy of the tank.

Interesting shot of the snails. Do you actually see the apistos eat the snails? I never saw mine eat them & I always wished they would. Maybe they ate them in some obscure corner.

I haven't fed my otos cucumbers in a while either - been too lazy to do it - but they also don't seem to be suffering for it. I might give them one soon - just as a treat.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 16-Oct-2006 00:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Lots of nice plant growth there Ingo, especially the bolbitus. Gotta keep the pearl grass in check though. It looks like it grew about 3 inches upwards. Mine tends to stay low and spread out. I think it's a lighting difference, but might have to do with trimming too. And I have to say that as it is right now, the hygro looks wonderful in the tank. I'm not sure if you want to try to keep it low like that, but if you did, I think it would work out well.

The females both are yellowing up a bit it seems to me. Even the female who is chased away is tellow and doesn't seem skinny or anything, so it appears to be working out alright. I'm sure the male will switch back and forth between the two. I'm really glad those feamles have worked out for you, it seems they were well worth it.

I'm not sure why everyone wants to get rid of those types of snails, they don't do any harm. I'm basically infested with them and I see no signs of herbivory. I assume they feed on detritus and/or algae. They sound pretty favorable to me. There are some plant eating snails, but those aren't that type.



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Post InfoPosted 16-Oct-2006 02:41Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Robyn and Matty,

To answer your questions/comments:

Yes, I have seen the Apistos eat snails, but they must be very small. They pick them up and munch them in their mouths, then they spit out the crushed shells

Yeah, the Pearl Grass is growing upwards quite a bit, probably a light issue. I will have to trim it probably no later than in 2 weeks.

The hygro will not stay that small and constant cutting back will not do the plant to good. I may have to switch to some smaller plant, but for the time being it is ok.

The yellowing of the females is very different than the viejita style. Here, the females turn yellowish when coming out in the open and after a positive (as in not being chased) encounter with the male. The viejita on the other hand is almost always bright yellow, much brighter than the cacs.

The problem with snails is their numbers. Not because of plant eating, but because of waste production. So, too many are not good, some are just fine.

Guess that's it for now,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 16-Oct-2006 09:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

Your tank is looking quite sharp! It reminds me of this place that I trout fish often back home.

Great flower shot too! The only flowers I have right now are on my spider plant!

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Post InfoPosted 16-Oct-2006 14:09Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Wings,I appreciate the input

Weekly Tank Update - Week 19

Really not much has happened during this week and during this weekends maintenance. I added some of the NL Java Fern from the 125G makeover to the right group, just smushed it in there as deep as I can without removing any anubias (not in the substrate, in the hill cover).

And that is all, I was way too busy with all other tanks to do anything else.

Attached Image:

Tank This Weekend



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LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a closeup of the right hill with the maybe 10 leaves (on 2 roots) of NL Java Fern addition.

You can also the the Pearl Grass on the right, in need of a trimming, but that will have to wait until next weekend:

Attached Image:

NL Java Fern



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Post InfoPosted 22-Oct-2006 19:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Also in need of trimming very soon is the Hygro on the way left tank side. Actually, maybe a replacement with a more permanent plant will have to happen instead. How about some trimmings of the Pearl Grass from the other side of the tank?

Attached Image:

Hygro Getting Too Tall



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LITTLE_FISH
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Last but not least, here is a shot of the bolbitis. I think it is beginning to become very dense. After the major cutting that I did a few weeks back it is doing much better and has almost no algae anymore. Also note the Crypts towards the right.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Bolbitis



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LITTLE_FISH
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Oh Oh,

That does not look good

Tonight, while getting ready to feed the fish, I saw the male hovering above the substrate, just at the entrance into one of the hills. Both females were out and about, but he did not show to either, nor did he chase them.

Furthermore, once feeding started he did not come to eat his share. Usually, this is the beginning of the end.

I may have had the CO2 a little higher, but not so high that it influenced the other fish in the tank, the females seem fine.

Not good,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 23-Oct-2006 00:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a shot of him, albeit not very good, that I just got. Since the last entry he has moved to another spot and then back to this one. Just in case, I reduced the CO2 to previous levels, I may have overdone it a little as all plants have bubbles which is not normally the case in my tank. At the same time, I also added a little less baking soda, so maybe I pushed the limit. But, wouldn't he be up and gasping for air if that would be the case?

Attached Image:

Not so good



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When I had my CO2 issue my fish were swimming circles and doing weird flips and rolls. All were breathing really hard. I think they were past the point of being able to gasp at the top.

How is he doing today? I hope he will be fine!

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Post InfoPosted 23-Oct-2006 14:51Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Yeah, normally they gasp at the surface. Maybe he's just in the "doghouse" for eating the eggs/fry. I hope he's doing better for you soon.



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Post InfoPosted 23-Oct-2006 14:56Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks guys,

I have not seen him today yet as I am leaving for work when it is still total darkness in my basement.

He kept his position until lights out last night, but it sure does not look good. I expect him to go to fish heaven, unfortunately

Ingo


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Well,

As of last night, the male Apisto was still alive. When I finally got home from work (another 12 hour workday he was in the same spot than the night before (as seen in picture above). After I fed the tank he moved once around the right hill, slowly with taking breaks to sit down on the substrate. I can see white very thin poop hanging on him (about 1.5 inches long), a very bad sign

My current thoughts are concerned with either waiting it out until he cannot move anymore or with releasing him from his misery.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 24-Oct-2006 14:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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You aren't going to try to isolate and medicate him? May be internal parasites or something though, usually tough to treat. Sorry LF .



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Post InfoPosted 24-Oct-2006 15:11Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Why not break out the Metro and see if you can get him better? You can treat the water of the main tank directly, it won't hurt the other apisto females.

Sorry LF, fishy troubles are no good


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Post InfoPosted 24-Oct-2006 15:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks guys,

Last thing I have heard is that if you see the signs (and I think for sure I do now) then it is too late anyway.

On the other hand, I might be able to safe the females (which don't show any signs yet) if I used the meds.

Decisions, decisions, decisions

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 24-Oct-2006 16:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,

Update on the Flash?

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Post InfoPosted 25-Oct-2006 13:50Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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I haven't checked in for a few days, as I've been really busy with work. I'm sorry to hear your male may be sick - just let me say I know what you are going through. I hear metro is easier to get a hold of in the US, so why not try it. I agree with the comments that internal parasites are hard to treat - I tried several times without success, but I have read of others who have treated successfully.

Let us know how things are going.

Cheers
TW
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Thanks for the input

Last night, the behavior of the male has been the same as it was the two nights before, mostly sitting still on the substrate somewhere around the right hill. The females, as usual, were swimming around.

The one difference I saw was that he had his normal body color, a medium gray with the few horizontal stripes. The two days before he was all light gray only. I thought it was a good sign first, but then concluded that this must be the "untainted" coloration of the fish and all other shades are "handmade" to show either aggression, or affection, or to blend in.

I have metro at home, I bought it once about a year ago for my pearls in the QT when one died, but I never used it. I am not much of a medicator though and given that there may be a small chance only for him (if he has parasites) to survive I am still struggeling with a decision if I should use it or not.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 25-Oct-2006 15:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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IMO LF, it may not be as late as you think. I've seen scrawny, emaciated, grey colored fish hovering behind the heater recover using metro - considering how safe it is for a med I don't see what you have to lose.

If he's eating, you can target him by mixing it with some frozen food, if he isn't then you can still add it to the water.


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Post InfoPosted 25-Oct-2006 15:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Hi LF, if it were me, I would try the metro. What is there to lose? If he doesn't make it anyway, you have lost nothing - but it just might help him out. You won't know unless you try. If he is still eating, NowherMan6 gives you good advice. From what I've been told, the most chance of success comes if you can get him to eat food that has been soaked in metro. If he has already given up food, then the only choice is to medicate the water.

Good luck with him.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 25-Oct-2006 16:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Very valid point that you two are making there. I guess I will dose tonight.

This is the product that I have at home. Anyone dissagree with the suggested dosing on that site? I have to add it to the water column as the fish hasn't eaten in 3 days .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 25-Oct-2006 20:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Toooooo Laaaaaate

Attached Image:

Sorry for the Graphics



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Post InfoPosted 25-Oct-2006 23:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Sorry LF. Hopefully the females will still do well until you can find a replacement male.



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Post InfoPosted 25-Oct-2006 23:48Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Oh, I'm so sorry LF. He was such a gorgeous fish & I know how sad it is when this happens. I hope your girls will be ok.

BTW, I'm amazed - you get metro from seachem? Over here you have to get a prescription & not many vets are willing to give a script for fish, as they say they don't know too much about them. I found one eventually that would write a script, but I got the tablet form. I think it also comes in liquid - which I think would have been better.

Anyway, once again I'm sorry for your loss.

Cheers
TW
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Thanks Matty and Robyn,

I will see how this all progresses. My thoughts now are if I should treat the tank anyway, not knowing 100% for sure what killed the fish, but all indications are for parasites.

If it was a given that the male had to go then at least he could have done so before he ate all the fry

The females seem still ok and very active, but their behavior has completely changes. They are now after each other and show to each other all the time, barely finding time in between to feed.

Yeah Robyn, the metro can be bought here from online vendors, in case someone cares - I got mine from "That Fish Place". The 100g tube costs over $50 plus shipping.

Matty, I will have to see what I will do next with regards to a male. Should I wait a while and then take action? Should I take action now and have the LFS order me one (which can take up to 4 weeks)? Should I just give up on them as so far they have caused quite a string of issues (remember my all male club?)? I don't know...

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Well, I know you are not one that likes to medicate - but I think in your circumstances, I would try to get them to eat some metro soaked food, as a precaution. I have been told by several people, that by the time these apistos show symptoms, it is already too late. So treating them now may give you an advantage.

As a contradiction to what I say above, a part of me believes that once the parasite sickness has taken hold, it is a hard disease to beat, no matter even if you medicate. But the medication at least gives a chance of cure, whereas not treating a sick fish can be no help. If we get cancer which may be terminal, we still go through the treatment, hopeful of a cure. I think more chance of success if treatment is given early - before symptoms.

One LFS over here (he was talking about discus - also sensitive fish) said he runs a UV sterilizer, plus on a regular basis (maybe every month - can't recall exactly what he said) he feeds them a metro soaked meal, as a precaution. If metro was easy to get here, I would do the same with any new apisto I buy. He apparently has a chemist friend, who gives it to him on the sly. I just don't understand why in the US you can buy it on-line (not even from a chemist) but we need a prescription. Grrrr

About getting another male. At least you have a QT to house him in, while you watch how things go with your girls. These parasites seem to take a long long time to show up though - you had him for quite a while before you saw a problem - how long was it? So what I am trying to say is, as the girls weren't with the male for all that long, if he did pass anything along, it might take a good while for it to show up. Therefore, I wouldn't add the male to that tank for at least 6 weeks, probably longer. What do you think Matty - even longer. If you saw a nice male, you could always leave him in QT for a longer than usual stint - but then, what to do with him if something happens to your girls?

Ah, it is not an easy decision. Probably, if I saw an especially nice male that I couldn't resist, I'd do the QT thing & just wait even a couple of months to join them, but I probably wouldn't actively look for a male. I'd let time pass first.

Cheers
TW
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RIP pretty fishy

><>
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Thanks Ladies

Yeah, the last thing I want right now is to get into a cycle of replacing fish all the time, buying a male now, then have the females die and buy new ones, then the male again ... and so forth.

BTW, Bensaf once said that he treats his tank (or used to) for parasites on a (I believe) 6 months interval as a precautionary measure.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
That's exactly what I was meaning to say, in my long winded waffle.

1. That treating apistos as a precaution with metro for internal parasites could be a good option. If I had easy access to metro, that's what I'd do

2. That you don't want a nice new male in QT, only to have problems with the females in the Breeder.

Cheers
TW
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So sorry LF. He's beautiful, even in that state.

As I said, treat the tank, and then treat the new guy whenever he comes around. It sounds like he only gave you a few days notice before he went. If you see any of the first signs, like a concave tummy or greying and darkening of color, it's time to treat.

Good luck with the catfights


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Good luck with the catfights
You know, all last night that was what the girls were doing . One standoff followed the other.

Good that you mentioned the signs that I should keep an eye open for. Not because I didn't know them, but because this is the one and only reason why I hesitated to med the tank. Neither did my male have a concave tummy nor did he darken (actually he got lighter in color). The lack of these signs makes me wonder if parasites are actually the reason for his demise.

Just hypothetically: given that cichlids from SA are not doing too well in high N, could it be that his exposure to values of maybe up to 40ppm over an extended period was the reason for his death? The females are in the tank maybe a little over half the time that he was in it. How does a fish behave when dying of too much N over time (vs extreme overdose of N at once)?

Ingo


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I don't know if too much N will kill the fish directly. When my Rams started showing signs of Hole in the Head, I found plenty of info online pointing to poor water quality. When I checked my N it was way high (Bright Red! ).

From what I read it is more of contributing factor. If SA cichlids don't like high N in the water, it probably puts their bodies under stress. This leads to secondary infections of stuff that may have been dormant in the fish.

In the case of my Rams the male died within a couple days of showing symptoms. When I got wise to the High N I began doing 50% water changes which hold my N at about 15 ppm. The female was able to last for about 2 weeks before she passed. They both went in the tank at the same.

Just a thought.


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Post InfoPosted 26-Oct-2006 18:34Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Rick for sharing your thoughts, and I believe that they at least partially line up with my thinking.

I may have to add a little less N to the tank as its values seem way to high. I know the test kits are not accurate, but even if I lower the N I would still be above the 20ppm mark (by far).

On the Med Frontier: I used the metro last night and have one question. It says in the instructions that I should repeat every 2 days until the symptoms go away. Well, I have no symptoms, so how often do you think I should repeat? My thoughts are to do it at least one more time tomorrow after the water change.

Ingo


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I think your nitrates would need to be around 80ppm to cause serious enough problems to kill a fish in a short period of time(less than a couple years). Most Nittrate problems happen slowly. I think anything over 20ppm starts to get a bit stressful for mildly sensitive fish, personally. That's why I don't dose up to EI levels and am labelled a critical fertilator. I like to keep nitrates hovering around 10ppm.

As far as the meds. I'm no fish doctor. I don't usually medicate fish and try to stay out of medication discussions(which is hard when you work at an LFS). But I also know that dosing for short periods of time does nobody any good. I'd repeat at least once or twice, since you decided to go with it. And I'm not blaming you for doing so, not medicating is just something I do out of ignorance of disease and treatment.



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Matty,

Thanks for the input. I am usually with you on the "non-med" team as I treat only what I can identify, and that has been Ich. My thoughts here were that I either could just wait and see how the girls will be doing or to dose meds for the most likely cause of death of the male. In the end, my social contience won as I just cannot handle that, if they should have become sick in the future, I could have done something about it.

The N discussion is only to make sure that I am not thinking up some illness when the culprit may be much more obvious (as in overferting).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Oct-2006 09:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I agree with Matty, repeat at least once - maybe a third. Are you treating the tank, or dosing their food?

I hope all goes well for them.

Cheers
TW
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Robyn,

I am treating the tank. I put some thought into medicating the food but then decided against it. Reason: the Otos. If it is a parasite and if it would be able to spread to the Otos then treating the food would not help them as they don't eat flakes and I don't give them any other form of food then what grows naturally in the tank.

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Good point LF. The only thing is that for some reason, my otos never were affected by whatever killed off both sets of apistos. Whatever it was, they seem to be immune. There were 2 in each tank & I can still account for all - who have nice fat bellys.

Good luck with the girls. Keep us posted.

Cheers
TW
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hey LF,

sorry to hear about the little fella - he was gorgeous and you looked after him very well.

give it a week, and then just go and get a new boy! just do it! you know you want to!!

i'm just in the process of deciding on another species to join my cacs in my 6 foot tank....

justin
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Thanks Robyn and Justin

I will wait a little longer than just a week, although the constant bickering between the girls may make me change my mind soon

Weekly Tank Update - Week 20

The sole highlight of this week was a negative one, the death of my male Apisto. What a bummer, but I will move on.

Let's use this chance of a round weekly update to reflect on the tank in 5 week intervals. Here is the tank in week 1 (meaning one week after setup) after setup:

Attached Image:

Week 1



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Aready by week 5, all the fast growers had been replaced with a more permanent plant selection, although only some of the plants are actually still in the tank today. Here you see the whole surface covered with Micro Swords:

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Week 5



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Within the next 5 weeks, the tank had not seen many changes, mostly the wood had been moved around a little as it took me quite a while to figure out how to affix individual branches so they don't fall over all the time while doing a water change:

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Week 10



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By week 15, the actual scaping process that leads to today's setup was well under way. As you can see, the bolbitis, more anubias, various blyxas, and some pearl grass are already in place.

The wood by then also had found its more permanent position.

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Week 15



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And here is the full tank now after yesterday's water change and a few minor trimmings and replantings. It appears as if the Pearl Grass had not grown too much, but this is because I cut it back. Also, I don't think the Hygro will be able to stay for much longer as it begins to grow too tall:

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Tank Last Night



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Here is a closer look at the Pearl Grass before I trimmed it yesterday. Usually, I pull out the entire plant and the cut off the bottom and replant the top. But once in a while, like yesterday, I cut off individual tops and leave the rest of the plant in the tank. This is rather time consuming, but I wanted to use the tops somewhere else while still having enough left of this group.

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Pearl Grass Before Trim



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Here is the backside of the tank, and that is where you can see what I did with the Pearl Grass trimmings. I am still working on the removal of the micro sword, and little by little I will get rid of it all. This time, the left most part had been removed:

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Back View



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Here is a closer look at the new pearl grass group, with Oto and Apisto, and snails and what not . As you can see, the plants are rather short and will take a while to fill in nicely.

Pearl Grass grows fast enough to allow trimming and re-propagation on a rather frequent base, but not too fast to become a pain in the neck. Nice!

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New Pearl Grass Group



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Also from the backview, here is a closer look at the bolbitis. I think it is setteling in nicely by now and I see various new shoots. I only rarely now have to trim away an older shoot that gets some staghorn algae on it, nothing compared to the issues I had with the plant a few weeks back.

Also, the crypts to the right are setteling in nicely.

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Bolbitis and Crypts



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The last two shots are about the widows of the tank, the Apistos. They both seem to be fine and eat ok. They have been eating better though when the male was around, but it is not a lack of interest why they don't eat, it is the constant stalking of each other that distracts them too much.

Here is one peeking out from the right hill:

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One Apisto



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Last but not least, here is the other one in the open. I treated the tank with metro again after yesterday's water change and I will spend the next day and a half thinking if I should treat one more time.

That's it for this tank and this update, I hope you like to time travel, have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Other Female



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This tank is really coming along nicely LF, I can't wait to see how it looks 3 months down the road, I think it'll be a stunner.

That pearl grass is one of the few plants that truely respond well to trimming their tops. The one thing I'm really enjoying about my tank right now is how nice a carpet that stuff makes by just hacking off the tops every couple weeks. Cool plant.



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EditedEdited by FRANK
Hi LF,
In looking at your logs, and your comments about algae,
I'm having a thought or two on the causes/cures for the
problem.

We all know that algae is an opportunistic critter. By
that I mean that if it finds a niche, it takes advantage
of that niche and fills it. Now that niche can be an
over abundance of some element, say iron, or nitrogen,
or it can be a lack of some element as well. Or, it can
simply be the lack of a competitor (too few plants).

In your cases, you are adding fertilizer regularly, and
changing water regularly. But, in looking at the plants
in your pictures, specifically the close up ones of your
foreground, carpet, plants, I'm wondering about
the circulation between the leaves, and down near the
substrate. The same thought with the mosses on the drift
wood. Despite being up in the water column, they have
grown so thick, I wonder about the circulation through
the individual leaves.

I'm beginning to think that they might be
"nutrient sumps."
Places where the lack of circulation could
cause concentrations of nutrients and thus, the
growth of algae.

Just a thought. It seems to happen whenever the carpet
plant becomes too thick. Then, when it becomes unsightly,
we tear out the carpet plant and a few weeks later the
algae is back under control, or gone.

Frank


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Hi LF

Enjoyed watching the 5 week transition snapshots of the tank. Thanks for sharing that.

Don't know whether I should say this LF, or not. But I will & ask you to remember what an amateur I am with apistos, put that together with being being a worrier after my recents deaths and then add a grain of salt before you even start to take any notice of me. I spend a fair bit of time looking at the belly shape of my dwarfs now & I looked closely at your 2nd apisto female. When I trace along the underside of her belly from her anal fin, to me she has an ever so slight bump where her anus is. It is bearly there and is probably nothing at all - just the angle of the shot & what not. But I mention it only so that you can watch what is happening there. I's sure she is fine & I hesitated to mention, as I didn't wanted to worry you for no reason. Matty didn't mention it, and he would have spotted it if it were a problem.

Apart from that, you have a pair of really nice looking girls there.

Cheers
TW
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Thanks all for the input

Matty - yeah, I hope that the tank will just keep on improving. I am glad that it gives me so little trouble and that I am able to change little bits here and there without upsetting the whole system.

Frank - I assume you are talking more about My 29G Tank, right? Your pointers are for sure correct, but I guess my issues there are related more to none or very irregular fertilization as this used to work in the past with gravel and laterite and now just doesn't fly anymore with Eco. This stuff is too good to be neglected

Robyn - good point, and ever since you described the symptoms on your Apistos I am keeping an eye open for similar issues on mine. I have to say that I have not noticed anything on the females in this tank until you pointed it out (and it really seems strange in the picture), but I guess the fact that I treat the tank now should help.

Thanks to all yet once again,

Ingo


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hey ingo - i just want to point out (because i'm a glass half-full kinda guy) that there is a lot more good going on with that second female than bad - clear eyes, great colouring, open, clean finnage, good red colouring of the flesh visible near the gills (highly oxygenated). i hardly think you need worry about that bump - it could be that she's hungry, has just aborted eggs, or a dozen other benign problems.

no disrespect to robyn, but i think when we worry TOO much about our babies, and treat them with kid-gloves, we actually have more troubles....

justin
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Thanks Justin,

You know, I was wondering myself how the females will fare now with regards to egg production. They must have gotten used to the idea that having eggs is ok, given that the male was present.

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 21

Not much has happened during this week, I am still debating with myself when and if I should get another male Apisto. I treated the tank with Metro 3 times, I think that should be enough.

Here is the tank before the water change:

Attached Image:

Just Before Water Change



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And here is the tank after the water change. As you may notice, the hygro is still there but I trimmed it down a little (cut off the bottom). I just did not have any other plant that I could place there.

Do you have an idea what I could use in its place?

Attached Image:

After Water Change



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Here is the tank straight from the back. I removed some more of the micro swords on the left (added them to the 20G) and added some more Pearl Grass:

Attached Image:

Back View



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And here is, for the fun of it and to interest Matty in my tank, the back view in an angle.

You can see how crowded the way right side is, with the hygro being blown by the current over the micro sword group.

Attached Image:

Back Angle



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
And here is another closer look at the Bolbitis. As you may notice, there are quite a few bubbles under the leaves. These are obviously from the water change, but during the week in the evenings I have even more bubbles there as well. Unfortunately, I think they come from the CO2 that is being blown throughout the tank and collects there.

Anyway, that's it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:



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OK,

I saw them already last week in the LFS, but they are labled Double Red. So this afternoon I went back and asked, and without me giving a hint I was informed that they are Orange (I guess Flash).

Should I treat the tank with Metro?????

Here is the male

Attached Image:

Male Apisto



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And here is the female. Should I worry about having 3 females now? I could not resist. But that's it, all better goes well.

That's it for right now, more later.

Ingo

Attached Image:

Female Apisto



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Here is the last shot of the couple in the bag. As you may notice, she has lost all yellow and now has an almost white base coloration. I am sure that once she gets settled the color will come back.

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Apisto Couple



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Please Look At Previous Page For Weekly Tank Update

And here is a shot of her after she has been released into the QT. She was exploring the tank and the smaller male Platy actually swims onto her side once in a while and seems to make mating attempts

Attached Image:

Female I



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And here she is from the side. I hope that the experts amongst you (Justin ? ) will ok her as healthy. She seemed not shy in the tank at the LFS and so far she is not shy in this tank either. But, she is smaller than the two in the 40G. Should I worry about her as the third female in that tank?

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Female II



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And here is a first look of the male after release. I have to say that now his fin coloration seems more red than it did at the LFS and in the bag. Maybe it is a double red after all?

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Male I



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Last shot of tonight, male from the side. Again, could the experts please tell me if they think the fish is ok?

And one more time:

Should I treat the tank with Metro???

That's it for now,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male II



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Ingo you dog! Way to resist the urge
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Thanks Mike,

Yeah, I could not resist, what can I say

I sure hope it doesn't come back to haunt me. I don't know how many additional setbacks I am willing to take with Cacs. Somehow I thought they are easier than viejitas, but they never gave me trouble (ok, having 3 males where 2 should be females is not the fish's fault )

Ingo


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That's nice that they finally gave you a female along with your male. I'm not sure that I'd treat with metro or not. Since it can't hurt anything, and you already have it, why not right? They do look a bit skinny, but it could be that they just need to be fed a bit. It's nothing drastic or indicative of parasites IMO. They look pretty healthy by my eye.



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Thanks Matty for the heads up on the Apistos. I think I have seen another male/male pair of other Apistos in a different tank at the LFS as both fish looked totally alike . Well, maybe they had 2 pairs in the tank and I only saw the boys, but usually they don't do that.

So, what do you think about the 40G being able to handle 3 females and the male?

Ingo


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LF,

1.) Yes, treat with metro

2.) 1m, 3f - That sounds perfect, actually - that's a real harem now Nice pick up!


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Thanks NowherMan6

Yeah, I know that 3 is a good number, but I am wondering:

2 hills and 3 girls

That might lead to some fighting as previously both girls had fry within one week and each needed a hill for protection. So, what if that happens now with 3?

Well, maybe I should be more concerned with the health of the new pair in the first place.

Ingo


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gorgeous looking pair, ingo!

as already stated, 3:1 is a great ratio FOR THE MALE - you may find a bit of bickering between the two lesser-ranked females. and, they definitely need more potential breeding spots. i always try to have one more nest than there are females. so, get those film canisters out!!! hehehe.

good luck with them all - a couple of feeds of live food if you've got it to beef them up and all should be well.

justin
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks Justin,

I was wondering when you will peek in

Glad to hear that you think they are ok. Now, where do I get film canisters from? I haven't bought a conventional film in quite some time.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
I have a ton that I could mail to you but they smell like chemicals. I dont think I'd use them.

Maybe get one of those coconut caves and cover it in bolbitus? Just disguise it. It's more natural than matty's PVC pipe paradise...


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Very nice LF

He still looks like an orange flash, rather than a red to me. I can see nothing that looks unhealthy, they look really nice & the male should enjoy his harem.

Re the metro. Who really knows the answer to that. Like Nowhere said, it can't hurt. I think you said the great Bensaf once said to treat apistos every 6 months as a precaution.

BTW Justin, no disrespect taken. Yes I may worry too much, but all 4 of my apistos died in short order - 3 of them with parasites (at times you could even see the tip of the worm hanging out). They weren't even in the same tank & never had been together. The 4th had suspected TB It has left me a bit nervous of them.

Cheers
TW
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*Shakes fish at nowherman*



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Has someone gotten a little offended?

Anyway, no space for coconut huts in the 40G, would look somewhat out of place. I will use the Metro tonight, for 3 sessions until Friday. Then I can clean it out on Saturday with the water change.

Ingo


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OK,

Ready for your daily dose of Apisto News?

Here is the female tonight. She has colored back up quite a bit. Her finnage also looks like she is in good shape.

Attached Image:

Female Hunting For Food



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And here is the male. He seemed a little picky during feeding. He neglected almost all freeze dried brime shrimp and freeze dried bloodworms. Eventually he had eaten a few bites. I see him roaming the tank quite frequently and picking up stuff, so I guess he doesn't like what I have on the menu

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male



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Offended, Hope you didn't mean me. I am happy as larry at the moment, with about 30-40 krib fry in my tank

Hope that once your harem is joined up, you here the flipper, flapper of little fins too

All looks to be going well for you. Nice looking apistos (and tank too)

Cheers
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No, he meant me, shaking fish. I'm not really offended, it's all in good fun



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Ingo I really regret not getting that pair myself. I must have walked past that tank a dozen times and peeked in everytime. Ah well!!! Seriously PM me for my number. Next time you're at the store, let me know. I've got friends that will take care of you. Retail prices are for the insane!
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I've got friends that will take care of you
Now that sounds scary

Will they make me an offer that I can't refuse?

I will keep your connections in mind, thanks Mike. Oh - btw - I am actually fooling myself into thinking that I got this pair for free as I bought it with my store credit. The fact that I received the credit for the males that I purchased a while back (thinking they were females seems to slip my mind

Robyn - Thanks for the compliments, when can we see more about your fry and the lost fin?

Ingo


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I'm going to update the 23.7G tank now. Thanks for asking.

Cheers
TW
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Robyn,

Your fry looks good, there must be at least 20 of them.

With regards to the new Apisto in my QT, the male makes me worried a little. He seems to be a picky eater. During the last two days he barely touched the food, maybe eating 3 bites of whatever I feed (last night was flakes). I know how it looks when a fish is sick and does this "pretend eating" in order not to be detected as sick by the other fish in the tank, but he does not do that either. He is picking "stuff" of the ground and eats it, but that is - as far as I can tell - not part of the food I add to the tank. Maybe I have so many little critters in there that he is too full to eat. Or he really does not like my offerings. I would hate to have to go to a special menu just for him.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Yeah, the special menu is a pain. I had to to that for my bitas. No matter how I tried to disguise the pellets or flakes (by soaking first in blood worms) they would never eat them. If one accidentally went in their mouths, they either spat it out or expelled it out their gills.

For some strange reason, my female krib is doing the same. I cannot get her to take flake or pellets. The male will take them, but not her. All the nigerian reds take pellet with no problem. These finicky eaters are a pain.

I hope you don't have to go the special menu route, but if you do, I found frozen easier than fresh. Others swear you can wean them onto pellets, by soaking the pellets or flakes in defrosted bloodworms. Maybe give it a try. Didn't work for me, but apparently worked for some others. Good luck.

Cheers
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
My problem with food that is frozen, or even still alive, is called "my wife" . I probably would have to buy my own freezer for it (which I have been thinking about, some small mini freezer).

Ingo

EDIT: how do you feed frozen food in the first place? Do you put it in the microwave to defrost?


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Wait - you've never fed frozen food?

Well I take out the amount I am going to use for feeding and put the rest back in the freezer, then defrost in some warm water. Once thawed I like to strain it out. Along with my own concerns, I've read an article in one of the more popular fish related magazines about how the juices contain nasty fish killing bacteria sometimes, even in the major brands of frozen foods. My other problem is the amount of nutrients in that liquid which obviously goes uneaten can lead to problems, especially in the SW tanks, but also in the FW planted setups. So after I strain and rinse with tap I either put it right into the tank or put it back into some water to feed intermittently.



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Wait - you've never fed frozen food?

Shocking



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Well, tetratech had at least something to say.

Sounds like a major hassle for some frozen worms there,

I will see for one more day if he eats or not.

Ingo


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It's no hassle whatsoever.

You take the frozen block of whatever then place it in a plastic cup. Run some warm water into the cup. Slosh the block around until it's all broken up. Drain out the water so that only the worms/ brine shrimp/ larvae or what have you remain. Suck them up in your aquarium designated turkey baster and feed to fish.

The water is a nutrient broth that only harms WQ. Frankly, there will be enough nutrient broth coming out the rear ends of our fish friends after they gobble up all those yummy frozen foods - no more is needed!


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
It's really not hard.

I take a cube out & while still frozen cut some off, as a whole cube is far too much. I put it in one of those little measuring cups that sometimes come with fish medicines. For brine shrimp & daphnia, I don't rinse these at all. I think you would probably wash away some goodness too by doing that. I do rinse blood worms in a net first, just because I don't like red liquid that comes out. Takes about 20 - 30secs to rinse away, so it's no biggie. Incidently, before you wash the red liquid out, this is what you can soak your dry foods in, to try to wean them back onto them. Anyhow, I then add some tank water to the little cup & wait until it is fully thawed & at room temp. If you use tank water, you don't need to drain it again, as the water is safe. Plus for the next step in feeding process, I need a little water in the mix.

You could just dump it in the tank, but I have less waste if I take up a small portion of the mixture in a child's medicine dropper & release the food in controlled amounts. Once they have eaten the 3 or so pieces, I squirt out some more. Takes longer, but I'm also interacting with them & I enjoy it really. They recognise the dropper & come running when they see it being lowered into the tank. They even yank food out of the dropper. They become used to my hand & don't run from it, especially when I have to lower the dropper deep in the tank to feed fry near the bottom. So I can put my hand right up close to mum & bubs & they aren't bothered at all.

About the freezer issue. I wrap each package tightly with gladwrap (I have 3 varieties) & then they all sit inside one tupperware container of just the right size. The container is labelled. If you packed it up this way, are you sure you couldn't put it safely in the freezer?

Cheers
TW
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Well, tetratech had at least something to say.

Go to Matty's planted tank log for Round II of:


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VS

The Self Proclaimed King of Protist Destruction








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In this corner we have.....

I like conversating...I hope nobody takes it the wrong way(especially the Protist Destructonator ) It's all in good fun right?



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It's all in good fun right?
Of course. LF and I have had a few over the 8,000 or so posts we both share.

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Actually,

I enjoy it once in a while when I am only on the sidelines of such discussions. Unsually I am right in there . And yes, of course it is all fun and games

Anyway, thanks all for the additional info on frozen food, I am sure it will come in handy. In the meantime, the male Apisto decided that he is ok with freeze dried blodworms. After having denied them once before, it was the third course that I served two evenings ago, after flakes and freeze dried tubifex (turned down, as usual). Last night he tried one flake first , but then went on to eat quite a load of bloodworms. I have to say, he is not the smartest entity in fish land. He expects the food to be exactly where I add it to the tank. If the current carries it away then he is not going after it. Lazy bum

Ingo


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Wow,

I have quite a few pictures to post, so on with the show.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 22

Not much to report, except that I continued with the gradual replacement of some of the plants.

Here is the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Last Weekend



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And here is the tank today.

As you may notice, the hygro is gone by now and the middle section had been opened a little more.

Besides the hygro, additional bushels of micro swords have been removed.

Attached Image:

Today



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Here is a closeup of the corner to the short end that housed the hygro before the makeover. As you may see, the whole bottom area is pretty dark. When the plants were lower a female Cac used to hang out there once in a while, but with this growth she didn't do this anymore.

Attached Image:

Hygro



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And here is pretty much the full short end before the changes were applied. Again, all is pretty dark back there and not a fun place to be

Attached Image:

Old Short Side



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And here is the same area after the redo. Hygro and micro swords are gone and Bylxa has been put in its place. The plants have been created by separation of the one that I had in the middle of the tank (in the unplanted section).

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New Short Side



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Blyxa is a very graceful plant, I think. Here is one of the plants, the one that is in the corner of the short side. It even has bubbles tonight but I don't know if they are CO2 or O bubbles

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Blyxa



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As I mentioned bubbles, this is how the Bolitis looks every evening. Here again, I don't know if the plant collects the CO2 bubbles that are blown around the tank or if it actually creates oxygen. In either case, it looks nice.

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Bolbitis



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A plant that will need some trimming rather sooner than later is the Pearl Grass in the front of the tank. Now with the left side so low it seems odd that the right side is so high with all the tall Pearl Grass there. Maybe next weekend.

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Pearl Grass



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Here is the only real trouble spot in the tank, the area behind the open spot in the middle of the tank. This spot seems to be the toilet of the tank and it host quite a bit of hair algae.

This shot has been taken before the cleaning and trimming.

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Trouble Spot



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And here is the same spot after I removed most of the hair algae. It is hard to reach.

By now it served as meeting spot for snails to have an orgy . Or maybe they just play cho-cho train.

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Snails



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Here is a closer look into the open spot and the anubias that is behind it. That plant was previously not visible as it was blocked by a blyxa that I removed. This anubias was pretty much dead and lost all leaves, but now it has quite a few new ones.

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Anubias



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Here is another shot of the full front of the tank, in an angle to hopefully show you better the improved open section.

I guess the blyxa on the right of the open area could be thinned out as well.

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And here is the tank from the back head on. As you may notice, I also added a few more blyxas to the left and did not only modify the right side.

I guess you will tell me that the blyxa is too lined up, right?

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Back View



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On to the fish.

Here is one of the two resident Cacs. They both seem to be doing ok, although there is always a chase going on when the bossy one comes close to the other one. Interestingly, the weaker one was the one the previous male selected for mating first.

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Female Cac



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And here is the new female hanging out in the QT. I don't know why, but she is mostly whitish and not any longer displays any yellow. She doesn't seem ill and eats well, so I don't really understand this. Even the females in the 40G are somewhat yellowish.

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Female Cac



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Check Out The Loads Of Pictures On The Previous Page



Here she is again, this time checking out if I may be having some food in my hand

She is very cute though, right?


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Female Again



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Here is the male now, hanging out in the front left corner of the QT. He is most of the time somewhere between the plants and looks for some food. Oh, one reason why he may not have eaten in the first few days was maybe because he was full. I found some platy fry in the filter and none in the tank. I wonder where they went ?

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Male Cac



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And here he is checking out the girl.

Every day I am worried that he will not make it. This would be my worst mightmare, as I would end up with 3 females and no male. But so far so good.

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Check Her Out



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Last but not least, here is a shot of something I have no idea on what was going on

In any case, it is one of the females in the 40G hanging with her friends, the Otos.

Have fun,

Ingo

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Strange Group



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I won't tell you that the blyxa looks too lined up anymore cause I think I know where you are going with it. It just needs some more time to fill in and it will look great. I like how this tank is evolving. It seems to be getting a bit simpler compared to right after you changed it, but not quite as simple as before you changed it from all the microswords.

I still think the one female looks a bit skinny, but as long as she's acting ok, she looks healthy otherwise.



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Post InfoPosted 13-Nov-2006 05:46Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Your male looks more colourful here, than the pic in the other log. I love the front on shot of your girl, and yes, she is very cute.

I got very excited when my blxya was 1st ready to separate into 2 plants (particularly as it shouldn't even grow in my low light) but that is probably all pretty "ho hum" & common place for you. Still, a 2nd plant for free is good. Blxya is hard to find & expensive here (I have seen it for $30 a plant in LFS).

I don't mind you blyxa lined up like that at all. In the front, I really like the opening too.

Interesting shot of the snail, plus the strange playmates in your final shot.

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This tank is looking better, but there are a few things I would change.

The mound on the left with the Bolitis looks great, but the mound on the right looks alittle messy and not as defined. I still think in this type of setup you should have the two mounds very similiar and let the Bolitis be the dominant plant on both sides. Doesn't mean you can't have another species as support, but the same plant should dominate.

The Blyxa is too tall and distracts from the mounds. IMO the front foreground should be a low moss or other plant that will add some color but allow you to see the hardscape of the defined mounds.

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I really hope the male makes it for you! It is a really nice fish.. as was your last one too!

You have done a really nice job with the Anubias and ferns in this tank. I love the feel of it.

How long did it take for your African fern to take off? Mine hasn't done anything in the week or two I have had it.

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... cause I think I know where you are going with it
Well Matty, then you know more than I do . Maybe I have some vision for it in the back of my head, but I cannot pull it forward into my conscious thinking area

Yeah, I like where the tank is going as well, in particular because all can be done slowly and in simple processes. No major upset is needed to keep on going.

Robyn - You should commit a tank to grow out Blyxa only. At $30 you should be able to finance your whole hobby . Yeah, the male looks better here, that is because I post better pictures here than in the QT section .

Tetratech - complain, complain, complain . Now the nitpicking came full circle . Anyway, you are at least somewhat in sink with me. I completley agree that the right mound does not look defined. But I believe it has more to do with the tall Pearl Grass group and the plants on the right short side of the tank. Next weekend I will trim the Pearl grass there and then I will have a better idea on how defined the mound is.

I also don't know if I am into the idea of having two equal mounds, with regards to general structure (wood/rocks) and plants. Somehow I think it may make the tank a little more boring as in "when you have seen one mound then you have seen them all."

I don't think my Blyxa is all that tall . Actually, it never grew tall for me, even if I tried. Mosses on the substrate are too dangerous for me, too high of a chance to get gunk underneath and as such algae issues. Plus, let's not forget the spreading into undesired areas.

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Wings - didn't see your entry until right now, thanks for the friendly comments.

2 weeks seems to be nothing for Bolbitis, it took quite some time for that plant to finally settle. I don't think it is really taking off yet even now. After 2 weeks I had mostly dying old leaves and I trimmed them away, the new growth was much healthier. Also, keep in mind that Bolbitis likes current.

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Tetratech - complain, complain, complain

Don't worry you'll have a chance soon to rate my 72g revision. You better be nice

I also don't know if I am into the idea of having two equal mounds, with regards to general structure (wood/rocks) and plants.

Just for the record, I don't mean two "identical" mounds just ones that the main elements are the same but are flavored with different supporting plants.

I don't think my Blyxa is all that tall . Actually, it never grew tall for me, even if I tried.

I guess I'm still trying to get you to show us your hardscape . The original premise was mounds with those nice rocks. I don't think the height of the blyxa lends itself to that.

Moss on rocks

Moss on rocks is pretty easy to maintain. You pick up the rock trim and put it back. Am I missing something here?

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You better be nice
I will try , but I am most certain that it will look pretty good anyway.
but are flavored with different supporting plants
The problem is that there is not much space for supporting plants. The only other plants besides ferns that I know would lean themselves to be anchored on wood/rock are anubias, and as such they would be the same
The original premise was mounds with those nice rocks. I don't think the height of the blyxa lends itself to that.
Agreed, but take another look at the picture on the previous page showing the new left short side after I removed the hygro. Can you see the rocks? Once the plant mass on top of the mounds has grown some more I will leave gaps in the surrounding territory to show off these rocks.
Moss on rocks is pretty easy to maintain. You pick up the rock trim and put it back. Am I missing something here?
Maybe that the rock would block the view onto the main groups as well, just as some of the Blyxa does. Or do you mean using moss on the existing rocks there? That would be impossible as these rocks hold the wood structures in place.

Ingo


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Moss on rocks is pretty easy to maintain. You pick up the rock trim and put it back. Am I missing something here?


Remember LFs big christmas moss rocks from the 125, filled with gunk? Once bitten, twice shy...


I can certainly see where tetra is going with the bolbitus though. Especially in an apisto tank. Territories need not be just hardscape along the ground. Bolbitus is a big fern plant, and letting it grow larger from both ends into a canopy of sorts can help break up sight lines and create mid-water territories.

Remember, this is basically a species tank, being built for the apistos - it may be nice to add elements to it with them in mind and their needs and habitat. A denser look would be very good for them, it would allow them to hide when they want and show themselves when they want. I think the bolbitus can help with that. If you have Amanos first Nature Aquarium book, check out the tnak on pages 122-123 for inspiration.


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Well OK,

I will check out that tank on the mentioned pages.

In order to stall you all on the Bolbitis issue: It still has some growing to do before I would even be able to attempt a re-settlement of parts of the plant

And it really grows slooooow. I know at some point it will just take off, but that has not happened yet.

Ingo


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And I'm sorry if that came off as pushy at all I didn't mean to tell you what to do with the tank or anything like that Just bouncing ideas etc...


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Remember LFs big christmas moss rocks from the 125, filled with gunk? Once bitten, twice shy...

Well that was the old LF, now he's "leaner and meaner" in terms of feed and stocking. Speaking of Amano, LF what is your hesitation of adding amano/yamato shrimp to the mix. Moss and shrimp are just so good together. Not only to watch but for cleaning out the gunk. They do wonders in my 12g in which I have only 2 and 3 CRS. They also ate the monkey skull clean of any BBA tufts that were appearing. It was quite amazing. I also have about 8 in my 72g and watching them crawl along the riccia is really sweet.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Don't worry NowherMan6, I did not think you are pushy, I just ran out of arguments
Speaking of Amano, LF what is your hesitation of adding amano/yamato shrimp to the mix
That would be called Apistos

And that for two reasons:

a) maybe the Apistos will eat the shrimp, or at least their legs, or
b) the shrimp will eat the Apisto fry/eggs

Ingo


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And that for two reasons:

a) maybe the Apistos will eat the shrimp, or at least their legs, or
b) the shrimp will eat the Apisto fry/eggs


a)Amanos are quite large and I don't have a problem in my 72g with a bosemani, apisto and dwarf cichlids. Legless shrimp

b)That I'm not sure about, but as I said before sometimes fishkeeping and algae free planted aquaria don't mix, espeically breeding fish (flower pots)

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If the apistos aren't afraid to shoo off another fish the same size as them when guarding eggs or fry, I can't see why they'd shy away from some shrimpy... err, shrimp.

I understand your uneasiness about them, but they really are great for nipping hair and thread algae in the bud.


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I understand your uneasiness about them, but they really are great for nipping hair and thread algae in the bud

Nowher, to be honest I didn't know Amanos ate BBA, but I had several tufts on my monkey skull and they are all gone since putting the amanos in. Probably the less you feed and the limited supply of other algaes have forced them to eat the BBA?

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Hi LF, I understand perfectly why you'd be concerned about the shrimp eating the eggs. I agree apisto would not be scared to shoo off shrimp or other fish, but the fry hunters are opportunist. At some point of time, the parents will leave the fry (even for a few seconds) for food. It only takes a second for a creature (fish or shrimp) to knock off a fry. Before you know it, over a period of two weeks - there may not be too many left.

Just my 2 cents.


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Yeah,

Thanks all for the input, I will keep the Amanos in mind (actually more likely for the hair algae infested 29G).

Anyway, thought you may want to know that the Apistos in the QT are eating pretty well by now, they accept freeze dried foods of all kinds, like tubifex and bloodworms. They also eat some flakes.

The female, nevertheless, still looks pretty skinny.

This weekend they will have been 2 weeks in QT, do you think it would be time to move them "home"?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Nov-2006 14:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wait until the female beefs up a bit IMO. She might have a hard time with the other two.



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Post InfoPosted 15-Nov-2006 15:54Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Ok,

I don't have a lot of time, so on with the important things.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 23

Being very busy with stuff and the 29G this weekend, I didn't do much to this tank. Only some minor changes.

Here is the tank now:

Attached Image:

Tank Full Frontal



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Here is the tank in a Matty-Angle from the front, showing off some of the changes to the right side and the center. More to these details in additional photos.

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Angled



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Here is the tank in a Matty-Angle from the front, showing off some of the changes to the right side and the center. More to these details in additional photos.

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Angled



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Here is a closer look to the new right front section. A blyxa from the center has been split into 3 and one ended up here all the way to the right. In addition, my mini crypts from the 125G have replaced the Pearl Grass that used to be in this corner:

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New Right Front



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And here is the new, and most likely temporary, middel section of the tank.

Yes, that's HC

I got it as a present from one of my local plant guys and just placed it there to see if it even sticks.

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HC



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Here is a closer look at the HC after the water change. I would not have thought that such a tiny plant can pearl, but it does (at least right after the water change).

I will see how it goes and if it is working great then I will try to create a lawn with it. If not, no loss.

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HC Again



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
And here is one of the two resident Apisto females. I followed Matty's advice and did not add the new pair yet, although I doubt that the new female will catch up with Matty's fat girls any time soon. Eventually I will need to add them though, probably next weekend.

That's it for this weekend, on to the 125G.

Have fun,

Ingo

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Female Apisto



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Post InfoPosted 20-Nov-2006 03:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,
Tank is looking great. I think the HC will look nice in the middle if you can get it to fill out. I also think that some sort of moss rock or wood would look nice as a border around the Anubias.

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?liveplants&1164128978
or Riccia or Pella.

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19G Container Pond
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tetratech
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I really like the look of the two mounds and the contrasting leaf shapes, but I'm gonna stick to my original statement from a 11/13:

The Blyxa is too tall and distracts from the mounds. IMO the front foreground should be a low moss or other plant that will add some color but allow you to see the hardscape of the defined mounds.
.

Which it looks like Wings has echoed the other day:

LF,
Tank is looking great. I think the HC will look nice in the middle if you can get it to fill out. I also think that some sort of moss rock or wood would look nice as a border around the Anubias.


For example the wisteria on the left front takes away from the mound defintion on the left.

Overall the tank looks great

My Scapes
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Thanks guys
For example the wisteria on the left front takes away from the mound defintion on the left
- What did I say? Small changes slowly!!!

tetratech - the wisteria is only there as a filler until I have more of the permanent plants. Better an ugly filler than not enough plant mass, right? Not even the Pearl Grass on the back side will be there in some time, but not now.

Ingo


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hey ingo -

as always i am delighted and amazed by the growth and change in your tanks. mine is a far more settled tank!! i've just added four more ozelot swords, though, making nine, plus 14 amazon swords and about 8 tiger lotus - the bloody things won't stop sending off pups!! and in cacatuoide land, my beta female has just laid her eggs on the top of an ozelot sword leaf, and on the bottom of a leaf which drapes over the first!! it's right at the front of the tank, so i can see the whole process - but i don't think she's going to be able to defend them against the sturisoma panamense. i hadn't read of cacs laying on leaves, nor so high in the water column (about 8 inches). the alpha female has a brood of about ten babies, from about 30, (layed and hatched and protected in a film canister - hehehe!!)and the gamma female is just moping around looking grey and a little put out. my boy doesn't like her and her superiors just chase her around. poor thing. even in a six foot tank she can't find many places to call her own...

hope you and the fish are well,

justin
Post InfoPosted 23-Nov-2006 10:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Justin,

Thanks for the input and I am glad to read that you have babies en masse.

But if I interpret your input right, with reference to my Apistos, then you basically say that I will see at least one female being "left out" and not so happy? Currently, the male in the QT seems to be getting along with the female just well, I hope he doesn't forget about this once they are in the real tank.

Ingo


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hi ingo,

as with all situations involving other living things, we have no real idea as to the outcomes or posibilities - there are too many variables, and we are only ever theorising, then reporting things as they come to be. your three females and your male all have hard-wiring which is going to make them entirely different to mine. i think if i had three boyfriends in my house i might have favourites from time to time too - and i'm pretty sure their status would change depending on an infinite variety of things.

just get your pair into the tank and see what happens. i for one can't wait to see what goes on!

regards,

justin
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Love the current look, Ing; the bolbotis looks imposing .
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I for one can't wait to see what goes on
Me neither Justin

I will add the fish on Sunday, if nothing bad happens in between. Both are eating well by now and seem to get along just fine, although I think the female may even be still too young to breed.

Cup - Thanks for stopping by and for the nice comments. The bolbitis is just beginning to show some nice and speedy growth, I can see various new leaves coming straight up. Actually (supposedly), at some point this may cause a problem as I have heard that once the plant is settled it reaaalllly takes off. As such it may require very frequent trimming in form of thinnning out.

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Weekly Tank Update - Week 24

Nothing much has happened during this week with the tank, it just keeps on doing what it is doing best, growing slowly.

Before I get into the tank details of this weekend, here is a preview of what I want to do today, add the pair of Apistos.

If you think it is a bad idea, speak now

Attached Image:

Apisto Pair



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Here is a closer look at the female. She has grown a little, but one cannot label her as "fattened up" just yet. She may have a hard time in this tank, but I don't want to leave her behind in the QT either. Right now the male knows only her so I hope he takes a little care of her once he established the tank as his.

Attached Image:

Female Apisto



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And here is the male, screaming "get me outta here"

He for sure is ready for the main tank. He is not quite as handsome as the original was, but still pretty good. If he dies then I don't know what to do anymore, I cannot continue to buy new pairs and may have to make a special "male only" order at the LFS.

Attached Image:

Male Apisto



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On to the tank in itself:

Here is a comparison shot from 4 weeks ago, with some temp plants (hygro and pearl grass) still in place. Since then, small changes have been made every weekend:

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4 Weeks Ago



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And here is the tank now last night. It shows nicely how much the bolbitis has grown. I think it will reach the point where it really takes off very soon.

Also, based on tetratech's special request, the Wisteria on the left has been removed and some Blyxa was put in its place.

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Tank Last Night



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Here is a look at the tank from the left side, without Wisteria. BTW, I used the plant to fill in the left side of the 125G some more.

Before I forget, this tank, like the 125G requires weekly thinning out of the duck weed on the surface. That stuff currently grows like mad in my tanks.

Attached Image:

Left Side



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And here is the front again, in the classic Matty-Angle.

The Anubias seem to form a W in this shot, from the top of the left island, down to the foreground, then lining the open space, and back onto the top of the right island. That wasn't planned, but could have been

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Angled



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If you were wondering about the small specs next to the HC in the tank center, well - here is a closer look at them before I added them into the tank.

Yup, I finally broke down and payed some $$$ and got me 7 Amano Shrimpsters.

Attached Image:

Amano



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Here is one of them floating in the bag. I selected the 7 largest they had in the store and I would assume they are all adults. In length they are larger than my Otos in the tank.

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Amano I



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Here is the first shot I took after adding them to the tank. They immediately went to work and started eating away. I acclimated them for 2 hours and I am pretty sure they didn't need any longer. Or, at least that is what I hope for as I haven't checked on them today yet.

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Amano II



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Here is another one of the group, labeled "The White Ground Diggers" by my daughter. Even the wife came downstairs and looked at them for a while (and seemed rather pleased with them).

Anyone knows what the white speckles on his/her back are?

Attached Image:

Amano III



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Of course it did not take too long before the resident female Apistos became aware of the new entries to the tank. Here is one of them peaking through the leaves and checking out the situation, probably thinking "Can I eat them?"

Attached Image:

Apisto Looking Out



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
PLEASE VIEW MORE PICTURES AND INFO ON THE LOWER HALF OF THE PREVIOUS PAGE FOR MORE ON THIS WEEKLY TANK UPDATE

And here is one of these "Close Encounters"

I observed quite a few of them, with the female Apisto looking at the shrimp, moving back and forth, and eventually coming so close that the shrimp makes a fast withdrawal. I guess that settles the hierachy


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Close Enough



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Here are a few more shrimp shots, sorry about that but I had never shrimp in my tanks so it makes me very excited and I could not stop myself from taking pictures. Actually, you can be glad that I am posting only a few of the over 200 I took this weekend.

Here is one observing a snail

Attached Image:

Amano IV



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And here is another shot, probably the clearest that I have gotten so far. But you be the judge, I am sure I boring you to death already with them, but hang in there, just a few more

Attached Image:

Amano V



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Here is one climbing around in my Anubias/Crypt/Bolbitis hill. He is more pinkish then some of the others. Does anyone know why that is? I assume it is caused by different stages of the molting process, but what would pinkish mean - pretty new in its current shell?

Attached Image:

Pink Amano



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Ok,

Last Shrimpster shot for now. Here is one climbing around one of the tallest pieces of wodd and muching away on the small algae that can be found on it. This shows me that these guys are not shying away from the light. Maybe he even enjoyed being up there as he most certainly spent about one hour up there:

Attached Image:

Last Amano For Today



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Now, I have shown you how the Apistos reacted to the shrimp, but you may wonder what the other cleaning crew, aka Otos, had to say about such an intrusion. Well, they became a little more active.

Here are 4 of them discussing what to do about this new animal type.

Attached Image:

4 Otos



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
PERSONAL POST No. 6000

And here are the other two, on the opposite side of the tank. I believe they are "holding hands" although it is hard without hands to do so . That's why the fins touch. Just Cute


Attached Image:

2 Otos



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And eventually they all came together and formed a Union, called "The United Ground Crew" and decided to sing their newly composed union song (ok, maybe not all that funny).

Anyway, for real, they seem to have been very busy last night playing chase or something. For sure they were moving around more than usual and seemed to hang tighter as well.

That's it for now, let me know what you think,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

All My Otos



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Post InfoPosted 26-Nov-2006 14:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hey LF, the tank is looking better every week. You'll definitely have to start pruning back that bolbitis soon. The angle from the left and the matty special were great shots.

Actually, you can be glad that I am posting only a few of the over 200 I took this weekend.


Dang. I bet that was a good time though. I enjoy shooting the shrimp in my tank, though the SW ones are a bit more difficult to get, as they like to hang out in under rocks and in holes when someone is around. I thought all the pics of shrimp were very clear, except that pink one, which I would guess is pink because of just having molted. I've never seen that with mine though*shrugs*. My SW shrimp are bright red right after they molt.



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Thanks for the input and comments Matty,

I guess the color must have something to do with the molting. Just about 30 min ago I checked on the tank and tried to account for all shrimpsters. At best, I counted 5 out of 7 , one of which is hanging below a high piece of wood since pretty much midday. He/she is moving a little, but I don't see the feeding motion. It happens to be the largest, I believe. Either it is sick or getting ready to molt (or release babies as there is some undefined thing along the underside of the belly).

Then, to my shock, I found one tangled up in the plants, all bent out of shape. But, it wasn't all that bad as when I removed him it was only an empty shell. Molted!

Attached Image:

Shell



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Post InfoPosted 27-Nov-2006 01:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I wouldn't get worried, I never see all mine at once either. Kinda like the otos. I'm sure they are doing fine. Nice molting BTW.



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Post InfoPosted 27-Nov-2006 01:41Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Kinda like the otos.
Just look two images further up, there are all my Otos

But I know what you mean, Matty. Actually, I was rather surprised having been able to count them during the first day. I actually assumed that they all would dissapear into the plants as soon as I released them.

Ingo


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Also, based on tetratech's special request, the Wisteria on the left has been removed


Oh yeah The tank looks much better especially the right side with the pearlgrass reduced. Now you could see the rock under/in front of the anubias. It would be great if you could get a rock to show on the left more separating the blyxa from the anubias. The constrast is much better with the rocks showing and it defines the mounds better.

I'm glad you added the shrimp. I'm not sure how many I have in the 72g probably around 6 or 7. I'd like to have more like 20. They definitely will put a dent in some of the algae. In my 12g there are 2 Amanos and 3 cherries and they completely cleaned off the big rock of bba and gda. It's really funny when they grab the algae or bottom feeder wafers and make a run for it.

My Scapes
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Thanks tetratech for the input

I will take it slow until I am more certain that there would be enough healthy plant mass even if I remove one or the other Blyxa that is currently blocking the view.

I am also glad that I added the shrimp, they are eating machines.

I almost forgot, this is what else happened yesterday:

Attached Image:

Apisto On The Move



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As announced a few times, I moved the Apistos into the tank. Catching them in the QT wasn't all that hard. Here they are in the bag and you can see the alpha resident female already coming for an inspection:

Attached Image:

Oh Oh



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As soon as I released them from the bag into the tank, the alpha female was busy following the male. He seemed rather interested, although this picture does not quite reflect that notion:

Attached Image:

In the Tank



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This one is more representable of the situation within the first hour of release. A female, yellowing up for the occasion, somewhere around the male. I thought that they may lay eggs right then, but I believe that didn't happen.

Also, I don't think the male looks all that healthy, even my 6 year old daughter identified that he is rather "skinny" when compared to the last male.

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Follow Me



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I couldn't resist, I had to smuggle another Shrimp shot into this set. In this non-edited shot the shrimp looks almost like having a blue hue to it. We have seen them slightly pinkish, but blue is new to me.

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Shrimp



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Here you see the Beta female Apisto, in between yellowing for the guy and darkening as a defensive dress for the other females. She in particular is giving the new girl a hard time.

Attached Image:

Beta Female Apisto



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The male, on the other hand, is showing to any female that is close to him. Here he is with his original female, from now on Gamma.

Attached Image:

Showing



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And here he is with the Alpha female again, although you can only imagine that he is right behind her. But as you can see, there is no blackeing left in her lower body as she is all show.

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Show Off



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Another shot of male/female interaction, this time showing how bright yellow the females can get if they want to. Again, I think the male doesn't look his best though

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Another Showing



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The Gamma female sometimes makes me sad, she is being chased away by the Betta female quite often. She still has enough space in the tank to venture into, but in this shot she looks really sad

Attached Image:

I am sad



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Last but not least, another shrimp shot showing an Amano head on. He is sitting on a Bolbitis leaf and eats away on whatever stuff he may find there. Very nice!

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Eat Away



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Congrates on the 6000 post LF! Some day way done the road I might catch you! A cammera might help the situation a little. That might happen this spring though.

The shrimp are quite nice. I really enjoy mine too. I found that mine tended to hang out with each other for the first month or so. Now they seem to have there own areas in the tank.



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Post InfoPosted 27-Nov-2006 15:17Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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I always thought the W (or at lest the V section of the W) was planned. In any case, I like it - it leads you in.

Loved all the shrimp & apisto shots. So shrimp (amanos & cherry in particular) are good for algae. Maybe I should get some for my 2 smaller tanks - but my guarding female krib would not be happy. Justin, congratualtions on all your babies. Tell me, I know you live in Sydney. Have you seen any amanos or cherry shrimps around? I have only ever seen really large looking shrimps that I don't think would suit.

Ingo, are shrimps egg stealers - or do they like algae & other vege things best?

It is amazing how quickly the apisto girls can change dress. Your gamma female does look sad in that shot, but if the male shows off to both girls, then just watch her change looks if she has eggs to guard.

Cheers
TW
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Robyn,

The V was on purpose, the W a coincidence,

I don't know if they are egg stealers/eaters, it was one of my concerns. But the gang thought that an energetic protecting mom should be able to chase them away and so far the shrimp wouldn't dare to challenge the Apistos in the tank.

In general, last night all inhabitants are still around and the male likes to display to all females, none of which seems to be protecting something, aka no eggs yet. The Alpha female is currently not so receptive to his showings and actually chases him away.

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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My head is spinning from all the pics and posts you and matty and tetra and TW and Wings have been putting up over the past few days. At least the forum is alive again

Anyway, very very nice LF, the tank does look better and congrats on picking up the shrimp. You'll want more, trust me. And I know I'm late on this, but I notice my Amamos are sometimes pink as well, and as you noticed, it has to do with molting. Keep those apistos well fed so they don't decide to have shrimp cocktail one day for an appetizer


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I gotta say that those 2 females I sent you are looking VERY healthy. The yellows are unreal and they have nice full bellies. Great job, and nice pics LF. I sure hope they get along with the new pair.



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Post InfoPosted 28-Nov-2006 17:24Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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I gotta say that those 2 females I sent you are looking VERY healthy
And that is mostly of flake food, can you believe it? Well, they probably eat small snails in the tank like mad, too. But they are for sure some big girls (relative to the male, the viejita is actually longer and bigger than they are).

NowherMan6 - "At least the forum is alive again" And it would be even more so if you would write more
Thanks for the compliments on tank and shrimpsters though.

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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I will surely do my best, but the past few weeks have been dreadful:

1.) In the 8 days before Thanksgiving I worked 4 all-nighters (22 hour days), plus late nights on the nights i was able to sleep

2.) Then thanksgiving with the family etc

Not too much time for posting... or doing water changes etc.

And what's going on with NJAGC? Changing websites?


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Post InfoPosted 29-Nov-2006 00:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Everyone is so busy. Wasn't the technology at all our workplaces supposed to make life easier for us all. Seems everyone (including me) is having to work extra long hours.

Cheers
TW
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In the 8 days before Thanksgiving I worked 4 all-nighters
I don't envy you for this, but I am not too sorry either as I am still sitting in my office right now and I am nowhere (pun intended) near from going home Darn!!!

Yup, the site is being upgraded to a new forum software, be patient. I have seen it tonight as Jay was testing it and I was still here and he asked me to step through to find some errors (or not). But it will be worthwhile for you to find out when and where the next meeting is.

Ingo


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jase101
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a quick note for robyn:

i just saw some very &nbsp; (cherry? blood?) shrimp at slippery little suckers in randwick, but at $50 each i wasn't gonna be buying!! michella told me she expects the price to drop as more are imported, so maybe hold off a while... they were so cool looking!!! or if you think you can breed them, maybe it would be a lucrative purchase....

sorry to hijack, ingo! oh, i just bought a pair of apisto. agassizii - they're settling into my 40-litre cube nicely.

justin
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jase101
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how funny!!! i just got censored!!!! hehehehe!!! it was just the word s then an e then an x then a y....
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The funniest thing is that there really is a shrimp in SW named the &nbsp; shrimp. It does this little dance with it's tail raised up. Pretty &nbsp;.



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jase101
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my my, a &nbsp; shrimp. who would think of calling a shrimp &nbsp;?

justin
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Wow,

What has my log become? A record of censored entries

Kind of funny that even a legitimate name of an aquarium animal would not be able to be mentioned here.

Ingo


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What has my log become? A record of censored entries


What do you expect from a log titled "40G Breeder"
Sounds very &nbsp; to me.

My Scapes
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hahaha

Thanks Justin for the shrimp update. I will wait to see if prices drop - otherwise, these shrimp won't be for me. Did you get your agassizii from SLS? Someone told me they weren't importing them anymore?

How are your shrimp doing LF?



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How are your shrimp doing LF?
This, and more, will be revealed in:

Weekly Tank Updates - Week 25

For the same reason than the one for the 125G (work), I was not able to do the same fert schedule for this tank this week. The weekend maintenance has not seen much action, a little trimming on the back Pearl Grass was all that I did.

Here is the full tank:

Attached Image:

Full Tank - Main View



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And here is the tank from the same direction, just a little angled to reveal the open area a little better.

By now, it is getting very green in there.

Attached Image:

Angled Front View



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And here is the tank from the other side.

I will probably start soon with replacing this group of Pear Grass with some more Blyxa, although the Blyxa doesn't grow tall it for sure creates quite some side shoots.

Attached Image:

Back View



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Here is a closer look at the one small group of Pearl Grass that I still have in the front of the tank. Interestingly, at least for me, is the growth pattern of this group, with stems growing in all directions like the crown of a tree.

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Pearl Grass



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The 3 pieces of Java Fern (narrow leaf) that I purchased for this tank when I moved towards the current setup are becoming quite bushy. Unlike the NL Java Fern from the 125, these leaves seem way more compact. Maybe because they are closer to the light.

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NL Java Fern



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The HC that I have in the open is still there, but it is not doing to well. Besides the fact that a few pieces have been floating up, the rest looks like it barely can hang on. I doubt that it will make it in this tank, bummer.

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HC



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The Bolbitis, on the other hand, is doing just great. I am glad that I decided to trim the ugly and algae befallen leaves of it quite a while back instead of removing it completely. It now is a solid arrangement, with tall leaves of a Wendtii peaking through in the back.

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Bolbitis



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All fish in the tank are doing fine as well, including the new female. She is not confined to the worst spot either, but if she comes to close to another female then she is being chased away. Her time will come later

Attached Image:

Bad Shot of Younger Female



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Here is a shot of one of the older females. The other one is squeezing into some gap of the right hill most of the time, usually a sign that she has eggs or fry. But then again, she is coming out too often.

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Older Female



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The male also seems to get his act together, I think he is looking a little better now. Or maybe I just go used to his looks. He is still smaller than the first male was, so maybe he will perk up as he gets older.

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Male



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
VIEW MORE OF THIS TANK UPDATE ON PREVIOUS PAGE

Here is the male again, this time flaring off a female that is not in the picture. He seems to try to protect that gap in the right hill where the second female is. But he also is not consequent enough in this routine.


Attached Image:

Male Flaring



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The shrimpsters are doing fine as well, although I am never able to count more than 5 instead of the 7 that should be there.

Here is one sitting right on top of a small bushel of BBA on one of the woods. I thought he may go and eat it, but he kept on marching over it and ate something else instead.

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Shrimpster



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And here is another shrimp, eating on top of a bolbitis leaf. Note the bubbles on the bottom of the leave as this plant is pearling every night (shot taken tonight, one day after water change).

That's it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Amano on Bolbitis



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LF,

I think your younger female is starting to fill out a bit, same with your male. If you give them the food they need I think they will be just fine.

Were you planing on adding any other fish to the tank? School of something?



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Were you planing on adding any other fish to the tank? School of something?
Actually, not really. Although I sometimes think about it, I find the tank interesting enough as it is right now.

I already have 17 critters in there - 6 Otos, 4 Apistos, 7 Amanos.

In addition, what if I ever have Apisto babies? They need their space as well.

Ingo


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Wingsdlc
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Yeah simple is often much better. I am always tempted to add some other fish to my tank but I kind of like how it is. Plus who knows where I will end up after next semester.

55G Planted tank thread
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Oh,

Every day I think about an entry that I want to make here, and every day I either forget or get way too busy at work:

One female has manned the right hill, defending it against any intruder, male or female, fish or shrimp. The breeding has started.

At the same time, the male is supporting the defense of the hill.

Ingo


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TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher

Keep us posted

EDIT: Forgot to say, nice pics too.

Cheers
TW
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yay!! great news! i, on the other hand, have just lost my beautiful cac male, (i think he shagged himself to death) but i have about 20 fry still between the alpha and beta female...gamma female missed out! also just took delivery of some bolbitus fern, which i'm very keen to get growing - my sturisomas love lying on the wood under it already. wait till you see your first brood, ingo, you'll fall in love with them - but it means less cleaning and less fiddling in the tank too - can you control yourself? justin
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Sorry to read that your male died, but if your reasoning for his death is proper then it is a nice way to go

I will still have to do water changes, but replanting is limited anyway these days because most plants are pretty stable right now. The male is perking up as well and his body color is way more yellow than the old male ever was.

Ingo


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Gang,

As mentioned in length in my 125G log, I didn't find a lot of time to stay on top of things concerning the logs and tanks.

I have been very busy getting all ready for an NJAGC meeting at my place (see siggie).

So quickly,

Weekly Tank Updated - Week 26 and 27

Not much has happened to this tank anyway, so here is last weeks shot:

Attached Image:

Week 26



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Growth is good, and I am very tempted to do the first trimmings of the bolbitis (but not in the mood).

The one thing the club suggested was to remove the tall Crypt from the tank, I am thinking about it for a while before I make up my mind.

Here is the tank after water change this week:

Attached Image:

This Weekend



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As a side result from our meeting I got a little more HC and planted it this weekend. Some of the older HC seems to have settled and I think I see some tiny new growth on it. But it may be wishful thinking.

Here is the HC field now:

Attached Image:

HC



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I have been quite concerned with both of my older Apisto females in the tank, I barely get to see them. Actually - one of them I haven't seen all week (wasn't home too often either) and I thought she died. But finally she came out from the right hill last night.

The males seems to chase both of them as soon as he sees them. I don't know why . Justin - any info on this being normal?

Here is the "lost" female:

Attached Image:

Apisto Female



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The male is all over the tank, and currently seems to seriously court the younger female. She seems receptive, but I don't know if she is ready to breed yet.

Here is a not-so-good shot of the male:

Attached Image:

Male Apisto



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Oh - forgot to mention, he is much more yellowish that the previous male ever was. Not in the fins, but the body. The other male was either pale or dark (when threatened).

Here is the tank from the back:

That concludes it for today,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Back View



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one of them I haven't seen all week (wasn't home too often either) and I thought she died
Could she be guarding, either eggs or wrigglers. Not seeing them for a week will sometimes mean that she is busy providing care.

This happened with mine & also with krib mum too. In the case of the krib, even the dad remained hidden during that period.

Cheers
TW
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i agree with robyn - whenever i don't see my females it's usually them guarding eggs or hiding their young. your male will court whoever is ready for him and will chase other females in an effort to show off his size/strength - treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen. well, that's how i interpret it. i've never had a male who had just one favourite - his favourite happens to be whichever female will have him!!

hope you see babies soon - i just bought a new triple-red boy - he's young but so hot!! he's gonna colour up beautifully, and my females are chasing him all over the tank.

note for robyn - have you been to B and C aquarium in matraville?? i'm in love - best range of dwarf cichlids i've seen in sydney.
Post InfoPosted 18-Dec-2006 10:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
note for robyn - have you been to B and C aquarium in matraville?? i'm in love - best range of dwarf cichlids I've seen in Sydney.
Grrr, I have no room now. But maybe I will go and have a look anyway. Maybe I could squeeze a pair into my community, at least until my krib fry are big enough to do something with. Then I could transfer them to the breeding tank.

By the way, that's where my bita came from (see my aviator)

Thanks for the heads up Jason

BTW, who is Jason
I guess my error (sorry Justin). I jumped to some silly conclusion that jase101 was somehow derived from the name Jason.

Cheers
TW
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Thanks for the input

I think it could be guarding of something, but it is different than it was the last time around. It never took that long for the females to come out with the wigglers to another spot.

BTW, who is Jason ?

Thanks again, Justin and Robyn,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Dec-2006 16:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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This tank has really filled in beautifully, it's my favorite of your tanks. I especially like your use of the bolbitus. I may borrow your usage of it when i set up my own big tank


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Post InfoPosted 18-Dec-2006 17:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks NowherMan6,
I may borrow your usage of it when i set up my own big tank

This can be done, if you show up at one of the meetings

I appreciate the comments on the tank, albeit there is still work that needs to be done to it. The NJAGC gang suggested to use Nana Petites instead of the Nanas, but that would be $$$

Ingo


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I appreciate the comments on the tank, albeit there is still work that needs to be done to it. The NJAGC gang suggested to use Nana Petites instead of the Nanas, but that would be $$$
Didn't I say the same thing a while back? The Nana does however look much better than the normal Anubias Barteri.

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The NJAGC gang suggested to use Nana Petites instead of the Nanas, but that would be $$$

So you have a whole team working on your tank First Jeff Senske and now Jay Luto.



My Scapes
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Jay took the pictures during our second meeting, the one at my house. One can see these when clicking the link in my siggie (as I assume tetratech did) and then simply click on "Second meeting was held" (as long as it is still available there).

I would have asked tetratech to join as well, but he is living maybe a little too far away, he doesn't like the Jersey water, and he would have to give out his real name

NowherMan6 is a member, or should I not have mentioned that

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
Actually I hadn't seen that. I just saw Jay's name listed as a member. So Nowher is a member. What's the first name. My guess is Cosmo.

Nice pics, I didn't see my name (Wisteria Wizard) mentioned as the Wisteria expert/influence.

BTW the 40g looks much better without all the ground cover. Take out the Blyxa and put it somewhere else.

Looks like a nice bunch of guys. I might be willing to reveal my identity. Would the group make a road trip to L.I. to see "Two sides of Paradise"?

My Scapes
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LF,

I just checked out the NJAGC site with your tanks. I really like the picture of your 125G from the left that also shows your 29G. It sounds like you guys had a good time!

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Post InfoPosted 18-Dec-2006 21:16Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yes, I am proudly also a member of NJAGC I just haven't made it to any meetings yet. I'll have to check when the next one is, hopefully I can make that one. Partially I'm embarrassed to show my face, since I've no clippings to give anyone

I'm waiting for the official FP meeting in LFs basement. if we all chip in can we fly bensaf in from overseas?


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if we all chip in can we fly bensaf in from overseas?
I guess I am on my own coming from MI?

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Post InfoPosted 18-Dec-2006 21:34Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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I really like the picture of your 125G from the left that also shows your 29G.

I am glad it is a little dark, that picture, as I am the dude sitting between the tanks.
I might be willing to reveal my identity. Would the group make a road trip to L.I. to see "Two sides of Paradise"?

Not certain, we have members in NYC and Brooklyn, but not any further out in the depth of the Island. You most likely would have to come to Jersey about once a month if you want to be in the meetings (and that is what this is all about, more so then the forum part of it). I thought of you, but then considered the feasibility and didn't come up with a conclusion.
Partially I'm embarrassed to show my face, since I've no clippings to give anyone ... I'm waiting for the official FP meeting in LFs basement.

Any time my friends, any time.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Dec-2006 21:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well, as mentioned in the 125G, work is keeping me away from the forum for two weeks now already.

Anyway, quick update on the tank:

Weekly Tank Update - Weeks 28 and 29

Not much has happened, tank is doing ok, fish are fine, although the Apistos are all over the place, as sign of non-successful breeding (but that's cool too).

Here is the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Week 28



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And here is the tank today, week 29. As you can see, pretty much looks the same. I did some minor changes, but they are mostly visible on the back side.

Here is the full-on front:

Attached Image:

Week 29



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Here is an angled look, showing the remains of the HC a little better in the center of the tank.

Some stuff seems to have started to grow a little, but it is really tiny, almost as if it is missing something. I would say it is the lack of light. We will see.

Attached Image:

Angled



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Here is a look at the tank from the back, one cannot see all that much as it looks pretty dark. The change I made is that I removed the last group of Pearl Grass, not because I didn't like it but because less (species) is more. Instead, I planted some Blyxa in its place that has been grown in other sections of the tank.

Attached Image:

Back



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This is a really bad shot, but while I actually tried to get a closer look at the new Blyxa group I noticed during the review that there are 3 Otos being followed (or looked at) by a female Apisto,

Here it is:

Attached Image:

Otos - Apisto



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And here is a better look at the new Blyxa group.

Well, that's it for now anyway, hope you like it and hope to have more time soon,

On to the 29 Log,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Blyxa



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Post InfoPosted 01-Jan-2007 23:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
fish patty
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I like this tank better than your big tank. I think it's the fuller look I like plus the archway you have in the middle of this tank.

Just sharing my personal preference.
Post InfoPosted 01-Jan-2007 23:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Tank is looking really nice, even though you continue to be so busy. BTW, I hope you had a nice Christmas and HAPPY NEW YEAR to you.

Cheers
TW
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Really love how the bolbitus has grown in. Looks great LF.

Good luck with work (I read the other log), hope you get a break soon!


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Hi folks,

As mentioned in my 125G log, I have been really busy so far this year. Just like that tank - this one has seen some neglect as well. Nevertheless, things have been pretty good with the tank.

Here it is this weekend, week 33 I think.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Tank in Week 33



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Well,

I guess it doesn't matter that I am busy, nobody has anything to say about the tank anyway

So, here are some more pictures, from this week and some shots from some events over the previous weeks.

First, I got about 10 Cherry Shrimp at our NJAGC meeting and added them to the tank:

Attached Image:

Cherry Shrimp



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One evening in the week after the addition, I came to the tank to feed the fish, but unlike all other days, the male Apisto was a no-show.

Eventually, I found him:

Attached Image:

Darn!!!



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The Apisto survived, but for sure not the shrimp. It took me 30 min to catch the fish, and by then the shrimp was 2 halves, LOL.

Once in a while I kept on seeing one or the other shrimp, but not lately.

Last week, I saw eggs at the edge of my tank, but two days later all were gone. Here they are:

Attached Image:

Apisto Eggs



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The Apistos in the tank are doing fine, and so are all other fish and the Amanos.

Here is the boss of the tank, the eater of fry and shrimp:

Attached Image:

Male Apisto



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Here is the tank from the back as of this weekend, sorry about the glare but the plants are so tall by now that they seem very bright in the shots. Last week I removed the crypt that used to be in the right hill (in this view), it got too tall:

Attached Image:

Back View



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And here is the main view, as you can see - there is not much left of the valley between the hills, the Bolbitis and the NL Java Fern have grown pretty big.

I think I will need to mess with the tank in not too far of a future:

Attached Image:

Main View



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Last shot

Here is a closer look at one of the 3 NL Java Ferns that I attached to the driftwood. It has grown very well and if I judge the situation right then it is about to take off and get out of control.

I just cannot get my act together these days (aka no time) to trim it.

Anyway, have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

NL Java Fern



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Post InfoPosted 04-Feb-2007 14:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Nice pics LF. Good to see you back in action. Other than being a little extra hairy, the tank looks really good. If it weren't the dead of winter I'd ask you to send some of your clippings my way.

Too bad about the cherry shrimp. I wouldn't trust apistos with them or amanos really. Like any other cichlid, they'll eat whatever they can.

Neat egg shots. I'm sure they'll get it right eventually. They seem to be learning anyways.



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Thanks Matty for the input.

I am sure I will still (or again, probably) have some clippings left that I can send your when once it gets warmer again.

The Amanos seem to be too big for the Apisto, I guess buying only the ones that were already grown up was a good call.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 04-Feb-2007 17:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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i love this tank and the male apisto. do you think an angelfish would eat an amano or cherry shrimp?
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Seeing the shot of the Male Apisto with a Cherry Red hanging out of it's mouth brought back memories of my Kribs scarfing down my Cherries. Their colors went nuts after eatting them though....

The tank has really filled out for you. It is almost out of control but it still looks good.

Did you happen to get a batch of both male and female shrip? If so you might be able to keep them going in there just by breeding.

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Thanks coop for the compliments

Hm, I would not know and answer to your question for sure, but I would say "why not?"

A grown-up angel can eat fish the size of neons, so a cherry shrimp should not be a problem. And as such, younger Amanos fit right in (pun intended, LOL). An adult Amano may be around 2 inches though.

Ingo


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Wings - didn't see your reply until now, so here are some comments to what you wrote:

The tank has really filled out for you. It is almost out of control but it still looks good.


Yeah - my feeling as well, almost out of control. I hope I find some time soon to think about how I can whip it back in shape without destroying the scape.

Did you happen to get a batch of both male and female shrip?


I don't know what I got, I didn't inspect them before I added them to the tank (got them at an auction). And by now I cannot find any anymore anyway (lots of any here, LOL).

Thanks for the comments,

Ingo


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Week 35

Not much has happened during this week, with the exception that I saw a female cherry shrimp with spasms as she was bouncing on the substrate, filled with eggs. Do the mothers die when they release the babies?

Here is a shot of one of Matty's Apisto females:

Attached Image:

Female Cac



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And here is the tank straight on. As you can see, the jungle is becoming larger and larger. Maybe next weekend I will find some time for some more serious trimming.

Attached Image:

Tank Now



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And here is the tank in a slight angle. As you can see, the valley between the hills is barely noticable anymore. But there is some HC left in there, but it doesn't grow quite well. I assume the light is not strong enough, not to mention the deeper parts of the valley are for sure too shaded.

That's it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Now Angled



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Do the mothers die when they release the babies?
Nope. It should take about 28 days for the eggs to become babies. Soon you may have many CRS. How cool would that be?

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Here is a shot of one of Matty's Apisto females


I'm super glad these are doing so well for you. They look terrific.

I almost want to disagree about the needing of a trimming. Has anyone been in an old growth forest, that's got a little walking trail? It gets really dark, the plants are creeping in on the trail and you feel like sumpin's gunna JUMP out. Yep, it looks alot like that. I like it a lot.



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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2007 04:53Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Soon you may have many CRS. How cool would that be?


That would be quite all-right, although I think that the Apistos would see them as a nice variety in their menu.

Has anyone been in an old growth forest, that's got a little walking trail?


In the words of "The Cure" : "Lost in the forest, all alone"

- If it wouldn't be for the shading that is generated by the tree-covers I would not mind it, but the lower plants, like Blyxa, HC, and even the Anubias, will soon be shaded way too much for their own good.

Ingo


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Stunning LF. By far this is my favorite of your tanks. I know I've mentioned this before, but I love that the layout allows the apistos to be themselves, giving them tons of broken sightlines and hiding spots.

You've turned me on to bolbitus big time as well!


Back in the saddle!
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You've turned me on to bolbitus big time as well!


Well, if you manage to make it to next weekend's meeting then I promise you that I will bring in some Bolbitis just for you

There is actually one downside to Bolbitis:

Removing part of a rhizome is rather hard when the fine roots off it are attached to wood/rock/other plants. This plant sticks like glue and one has to be careful not to rip the whole hardware apart (as in destroying arrangements).

Ingo


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It's looking really beautiful and natural

><>
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LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks superlion,

I appreciate the comment, not only because it is positive () but also because it is not happening too often that someone justs pops into my logs and makes an entry.

Feel free to criticize as well,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 13-Feb-2007 14:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Well, if you manage to make it to next weekend's meeting then I promise you that I will bring in some Bolbitis just for you


Where in the world would I put it?!? I only have a little 4G running at the moment. Plus, at the risk of getting kicked out of the club, I'm going to Cooperstown NY this weekend - if it doesn't get destroyed in this week's blizzard, that is Thanks for the offer though

Removing part of a rhizome is rather hard when the fine roots off it are attached to wood/rock/other plants. This plant sticks like glue and one has to be careful not to rip the whole hardware apart (as in destroying arrangements).


Same thing with Java fern. Tried to thin it out in the 4 last week and I almost tore the DW out of the tank. Those rhizomes can really hang on.


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 13-Feb-2007 23:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I'm going to Cooperstown NY this weekend


Sure, the baseball Hall Of Fame is much more important than seeing a rimless high gadget ADA tank being set up

But you are right, the Bolbitis would be way too big in a 4G, at least once it settles in.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 14-Feb-2007 13:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Sure, the baseball Hall Of Fame is much more important than seeing a rimless high gadget ADA tank being set up

Hall of Fame baseball Players or Hall of Fame N.J. Aquascapers, well that's a toss up. I guess it depends on how big the rimless tank is. If 120cm or larger I would go to the meeting

Who would have thung it? So much money for rimless tanks. I'm holding out for "Force Field Tanks" Don't tell the boys at ADG.

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Post InfoPosted 14-Feb-2007 16:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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If 120cm or larger I would go to the meeting


Yup, 48x18x18 - I think, or even deeper and higher

I'm holding out for "Force Field Tanks"




Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 14-Feb-2007 16:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Who would have thung it? So much money for rimless tanks. I'm holding out for "Force Field Tanks" Don't tell the boys at ADG.


I ran into this problem last fall. I wanted a larger tank but I wanted rimless and clear seals. ADA was the only option, but their version of a 65 gallon is over 300 dollars, and I just can't justify spending that on a tank, no matter how beautiful - especially when you add in the cost of filter, lights, substrate, stand, DW and let's not forget - enough plants to fill the thing from the start, which could easily be another 300!

And it's not so much about the HoF, it's more about visiting the GF's family up there, so i don't realyl have a choice...


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Post InfoPosted 14-Feb-2007 16:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I ran into this problem last fall. I wanted a larger tank but I wanted rimless and clear seals. ADA was the only option, but their version of a 65 gallon is over 300 dollars, and I just can't justify spending that on a tank, no matter how beautiful - especially when you add in the cost of filter, lights, substrate, stand, DW and let's not forget - enough plants to fill the thing from the start, which could easily be another 300!

I hear ye! ..And I don't think the $300 includes shipping which almost doubles the price. You did buy a 60g from Glass Cages didn't you?

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Post InfoPosted 14-Feb-2007 17:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Yeah, it's acrylic, but it's the shape and dimensions I want. It was pretty cheap too, even including shipping. And it doesn't scratch as easily as I thought it would, I've put it through some rigors already. They can make rimless glass tanks custom but 1.) for pick up only, somewhere upstate NY I think and 2.) maybe for a small tank, but if I'm going to put 700 lbs of water in something without top bracing I damn well want the best quality I can get, and ADA tanks are proven. Not sure about glass cages.

Have you been looking at upgrading, or changing styles?


p.s. apologies to LF for thread hijacking...


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Post InfoPosted 14-Feb-2007 20:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
I was just about to say something about thread hijacking, but you beat me to it. I think we all have been through enough here and have respect for each other that gives us some leverage to hijack alittle here and there. Please let me know if I'm out of line LF.

Have you been looking at upgrading, or changing styles?

Well I'm definitely looking into doing an ADA style open top tank. It will not replace the 72, but be added. That's one of the reasons I took down my 12g. Also the saltwater tank and equipment is in the garage and will hopefully one day be placed in the den (sorry Matty), but the open top can definitely go in the bedroom. I'm deciding whether it's worth it to go all out and do 100% ADA (tank, ferts, substrate) or should I just get the open-tank style and go ECO & EI within.


My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 14-Feb-2007 21:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
DeletedPosted 16-Feb-2007 14:55
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Really great looking tank - really liking the "walk in the forest look".

The apistos must love being in charge of such a home. Shame about the male snacking on fry & shrimp, but that sure was an interesting picture of the last moments of that poor cherry red

Sorry LF for joining the hijack. I guess rimmless means no black edges anywhere to be seen? If so, my 2 new tanks I'm planning will be rimmless - but I will have a middle brace in them.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2007 14:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Gang,

Don't worry about the hijacking thing, it's all good. Hey - who says that it doesn't have anything to do with this log anyway? How knows if I one day may decide on ending this log to start a new one because I replace the tank with a rimless one? I don't.

Robyn, haven't read anything from you in a while . Usually, when we talk rimless it means a tank that has an all open top and the upper limits of the tank are the side panels of the glass (or acrylic), no braces either. Have you seen the ADA tanks - that's it.

The male Apsito is giving me trouble these days, he has started to "eat" the CO2 bubbles from the diffuser. I know it sounds funny, but it is serious as he seems to eat less and to be more static (as in not moving around and hanging in one spot) that before. I think he likes the buzz that he gets from the CO2.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2007 15:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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The male Apsito is giving me trouble these days, he has started to "eat" the CO2 bubbles from the diffuser. I know it sounds funny, but it is serious as he seems to eat less and to be more static (as in not moving around and hanging in one spot) that before. I think he likes the buzz that he gets from the CO2.


An apisto that gets high? Far out man

Only in LF's tank...


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2007 17:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Oh,

Just now did I see that this post would make it 1000 entries, so here it is.

Congratulations to myself and all participants to help in the creation of this tank and associated log.

Thanks all,

Ingo

EDIT: AND WHILE I TYPED, NOWHERMAN6 STOLE NO 1000


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Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2007 17:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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hello ingo,

long time, no post - i think the tank looks great!! i am sure the apistos just love living in it.

i've recently set up a new tank (600mm x 400mm footprint, 100 litres) for a pair of rams, 20 cardinals and 2 sturisoma panamense, all doing well.

and i've also diversified, with a trio of the most magnificent fish i think i've owned - triple red agasizii. even the females are so pretty, but the boy really is special. first batch of eggs hatched but were eaten. hopefully better luck next time.

hope all is well in your life and in tank-land.

justin
Post InfoPosted 17-Feb-2007 05:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Justin

Hey - 100 liters - that's like 26 US gallons, right? That is quite some fish load that you have in there

But if you say all is well then so be it

I think tetratech has the triple red agasizii (or double?). They sure are nice, but from what I have heard a little more aggressive than the cacs and for sure more than the viejitas.

All is well, basically, in my life and tanks, thanks for asking,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2007 14:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 36

Not much to report on the tank this week, all is pretty much the same than it was last week.

The only thing that happened was that I was really low on CO2 and got a refill on Saturday. Upon hooking up the bottle I could not get any bubbles to flow. I was concerned that I broke the needle valve but when I opened the bubble counter the bubbles started to flow again. Long story short, the diffuser was so dirty that it stopped the bubbles from coming out. I have never cleaned it in all 36 weeks. I took it out, put some Excel on top of the ceramic plate, and let it sit like this for about 20 min. Then I placed it back into the tank and all is good.

Here is a full tank shot:

Attached Image:

Tank Now



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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2007 14:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a closer look at the right group in the tank, mostly composed of Narrow Leaf Java Fern.

I am thinking about removing this group entirely and instead just have a small group with rocks and Anubias Nana.

Attached Image:

Right Group



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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2007 14:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And here is a closer look at the Bolbitis group on the left hill. During the water changes I usually clip one to three leaves of this plant as they are either too long and grow out of the water or they are old and get a layer of brown on top of them (I think it is algae, but nothing bad).

That's it for this week,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Left Group



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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2007 14:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Looks good LF, congrats on the >1K posts in this thread.

What's flaotin in the top right?



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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2007 14:39Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Matty,

The floating plant on the top right is a group of duck weed. The current filling of the tank and its resulting current pushes all these plants to the area just above the spraybar.

I used to have the duckweed also in the 125 (and still have some left), but the Water Lettuce there is more efficient in eating nutrients and doesn't leave much for the duckweed.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2007 14:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 37

Not much to report except to show a full tank shot from this weekend. I tried to make it a little lighter than last weeks shot, maybe one can see the plants below the tree tops a little better.

I am still contemplating when and what I should do to trim these tops a little more than the occasional removal of a leaf or two.

Here is the tank,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Week 37



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Post InfoPosted 25-Feb-2007 18:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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It's hard to make out the tank. Have you tried throwing more light over the tank just to take a pic.

From what I can see it looks like the two main plants compete to much with other. One one the left, one on the right. IMO let one be dominate, probably the fern and reduce the othe one and make sure it's not lined up side by side with the fern. Again it's hard to see.

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Post InfoPosted 25-Feb-2007 18:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Have you tried throwing more light over the tank just to take a pic


Actually, I am considering more light over the tank in general. I am wondering if I should get the double unit and have the 2 lights on for maybe 2 hours to start with.

IMO let one be dominate, probably the fern


Hm, I am thinking about removing the entire right group, keeping there only the rocks with Blyxa focussed in and around them. Then, I hope the HC would get more light and become a better ground cover. The problem I could see with such an arrangement would be that I don't have enough plant mass left for a healthy tank.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 25-Feb-2007 19:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Hm, I am thinking about removing the entire right group, keeping there only the rocks with Blyxa focussed in and around them. Then, I hope the HC would get more light and become a better ground cover. The problem I could see with such an arrangement would be that I don't have enough plant mass left for a healthy tank.


I see what you're thinking about here, but I think the same problem would still apply. It still may give the impression of one tank on the left, one on the right. What tetra suggested - growing out the bolbitus on the right as well as the left - may give it a more cohesive appearance overall. Unfortunately it may also mean that this tank may not be right for HC. They're your tanks of course, and I don't want to sound too pushy or anything, but maybe try the HC carpet in the 29? I'm having great success with HC in average light but high CO2. As long as there's CO2 and direct light, it will do well.

and sorry for taking post 1,000 by the way I think I ruined someone else's log that way too, by saying some stupid thing or another in the 1,000 or 2,000 post...


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2007 20:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No problem NowherMan6

Hey, the 29G is low tech, no CO2 is added

That eliminates the option to put the HC in there. Also - I think the Platies would take it as food.

If I had bolbitis on both hills then the tank may be too boring for words, but I see what you mean with 2 tanks. I guess I will have to think about it a while longer then.

Thanks for the input NowherMan6,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2007 00:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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If I had bolbitis on both hills then the tank may be too boring for words, but I see what you mean with 2 tanks. I guess I will have to think about it a while longer then


Just for the record, I wasn't suggesting having the fern on both hills, just leaving the one fern as your main plant and supporting it with other plants and hardscape.

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Post InfoPosted 02-Mar-2007 22:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Just for the record, I wasn't suggesting having the fern on both hills, just leaving the one fern as your main plant and supporting it with other plants and hardscape


Sounds good to me, so I should remove one hill?


Anyway:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 38

Again, not much change since last week, except for additional growth in the forest. I really have to take action soon as the shading for the lower level plants is getting too much.

That's it,

Have Fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Week 38



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Post InfoPosted 04-Mar-2007 13:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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It does look like a very nice healthy forest in there - with heaps of hiding places for apisto & shrimp (I think you have shrimp in this tank???).

How do your apistos go now. No breeding action - or is it just that someone keeps eating the eggs?

Cheers
TW
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LITTLE_FISH
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Robyn,

The tank has breeding action, I even show pictures of eggs on page 39. But I am certain all is eaten.

Yes, the tank has shrimp, 7 Amanos (counted 6 the other day). I also added Cherry Shrimp a while back, but they have become Apisto food

The male Apisto is strange these days, he is still eating CO2 bubbles.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 04-Mar-2007 15:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Yep, I think it's definitely time to trim now. The pic is too dark to make out a lot of the other plants. I'm not sure that I would like the tank with only one hill, but I'd have to see to find out.

If you do take out a bunch of NL fern, keep me in mind



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Post InfoPosted 04-Mar-2007 16:44Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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I think I would have to take a whole day off from work in order to properly redo the tank, in particular if I should decide on removing one of the hills.

Matty - I will keep you in mind for the NL Fern, I had no idea that it is so hard to get up there where you live. I will try to add a shot sometime soon that shows the fern a little closer as I am not quite certain that it is NL Fern in the first place. I added some from my 125G and placed it in the middle of the hill. It is much narrower than the ones growing on the sticks but it could be because their roots are closer to the light.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 04-Mar-2007 17:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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It's hard to get any plants up here that haven't been established in the hobby for quite some time. Blyxa, nana petite, NL fern....just anything that's new. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the western new york that's seen nana petite in person. Our supplier is great for everything that's been around a while, though. My boss just doesn't want to order through anyone else, I would guess because he's lazy or doesn't want to fix what isn't broken or somesuch. So anything interesting and new I have to get online. I can't afford the real internet stores on my poor college student budget, so I have to bug other hobbyists like you, sorry LF. Oh, and that doesn't mean I'm not willing to pay.....I do have some fish money set aside.



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Post InfoPosted 04-Mar-2007 17:31Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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It's hard to get any plants up here that haven't been established in the hobby for quite some time. Blyxa, nana petite, NL fern....just anything that's new. .... I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the western new york that's seen nana petite in person
I didn't realise some of you guys in US suffer from lack of availability as well. These plants are rarely seen here. I've never found NL Java fern in LFS, on-line or on ebay. Found blyxa in LFS once (at $30 a plant & broke the budget & bought 2). I've seen blyxa listed on-line, but if you try to buy it, it's always out of stock. Riccia - I've only ever found that on ebay and it's pricey. Example, here's a batch recently sold http://cgi.ebay.com.au/RICCIA-8x12cm-on-glass_W0QQitemZ290084674964QQihZ019QQcategoryZ66794QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemIt's a 4" x 3" patch @ $9.95 + postage $8.50). Now that's why I'm so excited that my blyxa & riccia have multiplied - no need to buy more (unless I kill it during my tank move). I've never seen nana petite in person either.

Until I read your post Matty, I thought how lucky you guys in the US are, with everything fishy at your finger tips & cheap (compared to Aus anyway).

LF, I wish I lived somewhere you could sell / post me some NL Java fern, even if it was just to see the plant in real life - but our customs wouldn't like that idea much

Cheers
TW
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Matty,

Once when you have a tank in which not everything dies then I will send you some NL Java Fern

Robyn,

The patch of Riccia does not seem that expensive to me. It should be enough to cover a few smaller rocks and then you grow out the rest yourself. The Blyxa, on the other hand, seems outrageously expensive to me, at $30 one plant. Now here is your opportunity to convince the hubby completely that your hobby is profitable. You are doing really well with your blyxa so go ahead and auction some off. You should make enough money to buy some lights or a canister filter, or a present for the husband's reef tank

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 05-Mar-2007 15:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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So riccia costs about the same for you in the US too? Seemed dear to me (although without the postage costs, it wouldn't be so bad).

I have thought about the whole selling on ebay thing, but that means having to time the trimming to when someone wins the auction - then finding the time to go to the post office the very next day. Life is just way too busy for that hassle.

Like you, my work keeps me up all hours (it's 12.21am & I'm still working). The only good thing is that I can sign on remotely from home into my work's computer system - so at least I am at home & my planted tank is sitting next to me). The replies to threads email advice goes to my work email address - so while I was working here at home - I received the email advising of your post - so I'm taking a quick break to read what you say & reply.

If ever I find more time in my life, I might do it though, as in theory, it is an excellent idea

Cheers
TW
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If ever I find more time in my life, I might do it though, as in theory, it is an excellent idea


I hear you, and I am in the same boat, way too busy (or lazy, LOL) to pull something like this off. But there is a problem with waiting. You are probably not the only one with success in Blyxa culturing. I would assume that rather sooner than later the marked will go down as more and more Blyxa is homegrown Down Under. And then I would wish I had taken the chance when it was there to make at least some money.

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 39

Before I talk about the tank I will spend a little time on the male Apisto. I think he is not gonna be around that much longer. He still eats CO2 bubbles once in a while, but mostly hangs in one or the other spot, motionless, for longer durations. He prefers dark places. Today, I found him like this:

(sorry, bad focus)

Attached Image:

Apisto Tail In Center



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I didn't even think he can get out of this narrow ap between rock, plants, and wood by himself, but after turning off the light briefly he came out.

Here he is afterwards, and bad focus again.

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Apisto



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On to the tank:

Just to have a good comparison, and because I don't remember if the shot from last week is right above or on a previous page, here is the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Last Week



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And,

With the explanation coming in the next entry, here is the tank from this weekend.

Attached Image:

This Weekend



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So,

For one thing, I trimmed off some Bolbitis and some Fern that was approaching the middle of the tank, this made the gap a little more visible again.

As another measure, and as a result of me not using the PC on the 20G anymore (see that thread for details), I added a second glass over the top, placed the 96w PC closer to the one side of the tank (the front in this view) and added the 65w PC from the 20G more towards the other side of the tank.

I don't know how well this will work out, but it is worth a try.

That's it,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Do You See The Light?



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Sorry to hear about your male. I hope all turns out well.

The tank looks much better with the trim.

I don't think you will have any problems with the extra light. After running 5.26wpg on my tank I don't have much fear of high light any more. My next step is going to be MH lights. Some day down the road.

55G Planted tank thread
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
So sorry to hear the male apisto isn't doing so well. I hope he comes good for you. These seem to be such sensitive fish (I've had several deaths, tetratech lost his & your beautiful male orange flash is in fish heaven now too. I may have shared this quote I found on another forum before, but it seems to me so true of these fish.
I may be more cynical than most but certain generalities seem to apply to Apistogramma. One partner of a pair always dies if you have spawned them and not salvaged any fry. One partner of a pair often kills the other, because no replacements are available. Something they eat disagrees with them and some die. If you really like a certain species and lavish it with the best of everything, it will die. These fish are perverse; sometimes those you ignore the most live the longest.

I like the tank so much better after it's trim & especially like the tunnel that has formed in the middle.

Good luck with your light experiment.


Cheers
TW
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Thanks Wings and Robyn for the comments on the tank

Yeah, I am not certain what I will do when the male gives up. I am somewhat reluctant to search for another male and keep this cycle going. On the other hand, I feel sorry for the 3 girls. I doubt that I could put them with the viejitas.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
You won't know if putting the girls with the viejitas would work or not, without trying. I looked them up here http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=416 The Temperament is described as

Temperament toward other tankmates that are of a different species: Peaceful
Conspecific Temperament: (describes overall demeanor toward other tank-mates of the same species - mildly aggressive

I think it would depend if the female cac's look sufficiently different to the female viejita, so that they recognise each other as a different species.

But still, lets hope it does not come to that and your male pulls through. Is he still eating?

BTW, forgot to mention that besides liking that tunnel through the middle of the tanks, I also like how your rocks are much more visible now, since the trim.

Cheers
TW
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Thanks Robyn,

I did not see him eat last night, instead he was all the way inside one of the hills for the entire time of feeding and staring at the tank (like 10 to 15 min), almost motionless. I had to shine a flashlight in there to even make sure that he is still alive. I can tell you one thing - if he dies in there it is going to be really hard to get him out

Ingo


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I have to say it does not sound good for the poor little guy. This not eating & being motionless usually brings nothing good with it.

Cheers
TW
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Looks good with the increased light LF. Sorry to hear about the male, but we all know what eventually happens to substance abusers.



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but we all know what eventually happens to substance abusers


So true Matty



Maybe the girls were too much for him, and their constant bickering drove him to succumb to the CO2 hell.

Ingo


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I know I couldn't handle 2.....1 is tough enough (hides post from gf).



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Same here


Aaaaaanyway - last night after feeding the male came out from the darkest cave and his first trip was straight to the diffuser. He took in a few bubbles and then went to look for any food that was left (although the 3 females ate most already).

He is a nutcase

Ingo


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This is a very attractive tank and I think it could be really amazing if your up for a makeover (I know you like them).

I like the right mound because I could see more rocks, but on the other hand I like the wood and the bobitus, so I think you need to cut back the fern more to expose more wood. For the bigger part of the makeover I would add more rock to both mounds enough to hold back the eco. I would then remove everything from the foregound. Everything, the eco, the plants, everything. I would then fill with sand. A few random placed rocks mabye some with moss and possibility. This would give really good contrast to the green. Right now I think the Blyxa and the other foregrounds distract from the beauty of the mounds.
Just the way I see it from New York

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He is a nutcase
That seems so. One minute, he has no energy to do anything, but stay near the bottom almost motionless. That is until his next fix of C02

Anyway, you guys have so much energy - always talking of makeover's & what not. Yet, your tanks are all so nice as they are

Cheers
TW
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Yet, your tanks are all so nice as they are


And so is yours. The difference is:

The owner of the tank sees it in 3D, with all the ugly sides exposed. And he/she sees the tank 24/7 and as such the tank looses its interest much faster.

Thanks tetratech for the suggestion on what to do - basically you ask me to do a major makeover, something I haven't done on the larger tanks in quite a while. Once concern of removing the surrounding plants is the removal of plants per se, meaning the reduction of plant mass to the point where the tank becomes less stable. And right now it is pretty stable.

The current light construct cannot be a permanent installation either. It does not look great, it is a pain in the neck to get water out of the tank to mix ferts (just a small gap on one side left, the rest is covered with glass), and overall the light is not even. I may go with a Teck light afterall, just hanging it a little higher should reduce the intensity. Will see ...

Ingo


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EditedEdited by imrandy85
Hey LF, I try to keep an eye on all of your logs but this is my first time posting I think. Looking at your tanks a couple of months back is what has made me want to try keeping plants. I really hope your male apisto gets better. Apistogramma seem like really great fish and the pair in your other tank has made me want to get some but they're VERY hard to find around here. But all around many to you.
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Looking at your tanks a couple of months back is what has made me want to try keeping plants.


Oh thank you so much, imrandy85

I am always happy when I can help in any shape or fashion with getting someone into this side of the hobby. It is not easy, but it for sure extends the activities someone performs with his/her tank(s) and as such is an enrichment in experience.

Have fun,

Thanks for the input with regards to the tank as well,

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 40

Nothing special happened with this tank during this week. I don't know if I mentioned it before, but since weeks I am down to 2 fertilizer rounds per week, from the initial 3. So far so good, but I can imagine that with the additional light I may need to go back up to 3.

Here is the tank this week:

Attached Image:

Week 40



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Oh - did you spot the male Apisto in the top left corner of the tank in the last shot? I have not seen him perusing the tank in at least two weeks, so this was a surprise to me.

Here is the last shot of this tank for today, showing the change in coloration of the Blyxa in just one week of direct light. The new leaves are a nice orange/brownish color.

That's it,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Blyxa Changes Color



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Beautiful as always LF.
The new leaves are a nice orange/brownish color.
So is that how blyxa is meant to be with sufficient light. Mine are all bright green?

Cheers
TW
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Here is the last shot of this tank for today, showing the change in coloration of the Blyxa in just one week of direct light. The new leaves are a nice orange/brownish color


Nice LF, I forget are you just dosing TMG for FE, or are you adding something else. I don't understand my Blyxa. It's got 3.6wpg on a 72g it's in open space and I could barely get the stuff to grow. I'm not dosing alot of FE, I'm wondering if my water is to acidic or soft.

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tetratech,

my water is very soft, with 0 Dh for KH and GH naturally. I add some baking soda and equilibirum to get these values up a little, to maybe 3 or so (don't know exactly as I don't measure ).

I only add TMG, or its new replacement (plant nutrition or something) by Tropica, and only twice a week about 15ml each.

The difference in color came when I moved the light pretty much directly over the blyxa, so about 16 or less inches away from it, vs. the maybe 20" it was before.

Ingo


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Thanks LF. Well the Flourish only gives me about .10ppm FE at 10ml, but I do that 3 times a week, so I should be alright. Maybe the 65watt bulb is too weak to reach the 22" or so to where the Blyxa is. I swear this stuff grow better with the two 96watt bulbs at 2.7 then at 3.6wpg.

My aromatica is also not well and does coincide with me changin the light. I might try putting back the 192watt 3ft strip and see if anything changes. Very strange. Also I have two very deep thick groups of rotala and they are looking good all the way down, no melting or blackness on the steams even though the groups are very thick, which doesn't make sense if the light wasn't penetrating.

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Hi LF

Sorry, this is a question for tetratech - hope you don't mind.
too weak to reach the 22" or so to where the Blyxa is
How deep is your tank?

Cheers
TW
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How deep is your tank?


Hi Robyn, the 72g is 22" deep.

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Weekly Tank Update - Week 41

No major action this week with this tank either, except for some "above normal" trimming of the Bolbitis during maintenance this weekend. I took quite a few leaves out that were beginning to show some brown algae coating, that happens to them in my tank once they are around for a while.

Here is the full tank:

Attached Image:

This Week



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And here is a look at the tank from the other side, the one that has only the 65W lighting over it. You may notice the much greener color of the Blyxa.

Also, the male Apisto is on the left in one of his favorite "non-hiding" spots.

Attached Image:

Back View



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He like to be in that area as it is only a short swim to get his fix, aka CO2 bubbles.

Granted, this shot is not the best, but the light in that area is not favorable for taking photos.

Attached Image:

Drug Addict



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Here is a shot of one of Matty's hostages, eh female Apistos

I don't think that any more breeding is going on in the tank as the females have taken over the role of aggressors against each other. This used to be the case when there was no male in the tank (when the first male died and the second was in QT).

And - there is an Oto as well

Attached Image:

Apisto and Oto



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Last shot for now, another close-up of the Blyxa that is getting the most light in this tank, the one on the right entry of the gap between the hills.

I am most sure that light is the key ingredient to Blyxa coloration, as simply the fact of moving the light and maintaining all other tank parameters made the difference.

That's it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Blyxa "Light"



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LF,
Your tank looks, good. Almost makes me want to try a fern-type tank. I could see the discussion now with my wife.

Me: Can I do another tank?
Wife: &#$%
Me: But it's going to be a fern tank
Wife: I'm calling the doctor
Me: You'll never understand will you
wife: I'm calling my attorney


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Thanks tetratech for the compliment on the tank. I find the right group too strong, btw, and I am considering making it much smaller.

Your conversation with your wife should be more like this:

tetratech: I found a great way to make money
She: let me hear
tetratech: we could sell load of easy to ship aquarium plants on the internet
She: really?
tetratech: yeah, and the best thing is, all we need is a grow-out tank



Ingo


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Ah,

Albeit of not-so-good quality, I finally caught him in the act. Here he is, the crazy guy, eating his bubbles

Attached Image:

Bubble Mania



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EditedEdited by FRANK


I already tried that one...
Susan instantly asked, with some hesitation in
her voice.. "How big a tank?"

Oh, not big.. maybe 240 gallons.

And Susan looking at my 30 gallon tank and instantly
doing the math, and knowing how manipulative the three
boys had been.. Instantly responded with "NO!"

Maybe I was thinking too big?

Frank


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And here he is again, chasing the youngest female away as she got way too close to his source of free dope.

All girls in the tank are clearly showing interest in him, but he has nothing else in mind than bubbles, mad man!!!

Attached Image:

Go Away



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Frank,

Just saw your entry.

Yeah, you may have pushed it a little too far, with the 240G

You should have said 50G, and then worked your way up reasoning that a 125G is more profitable, and then showed up with the 240 claiming the 125 was no longer in stock

Ingo


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Frank


Beautiful tanks, and it sounds like the
cories are going to settle in quite nicely..


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The drug addict seems quite recovered from his sickness?

Cheers
TW
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The drug addict seems quite recovered from his sickness?


I don't know, it really depends on the moment. Some time I think he is doing all right as he peruses the tank, other times he has me worried again as he is hiding or eating bubbles. I am most certain though that he doesn't make a good "male" anymore, I see zero courtship behavior from him although all females show willingness when he gets near them (or they get near him, which is more often the case).

Ingo


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Hi,
I was just wondering... What would happen if a competitor
suddenly appeared on the scene? Or, perhaps it is time
to put him "out to pasture" (a different tank) and bring
a younger bull into the field?

Perhaps a shift to a different tank for a month or two
and then returning him at a later date?

Frank


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LITTLE_FISH
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Perhaps a shift to a different tank for a month or two and then returning him at a later date?


I was thinking about that, like sending him to Rehab

But the problem is that all other tanks would not allow me to re-catch him when trying to put him back, and the QT is housing new fish, plus Platy fry.

I saw a fully grown male of his species in the LFS this week and I have to say that he most certainly would "eliminate" the current male, so that is not an option either.

In addition, I don't know how many more times I would like to go through the cycle of buying "replacements" for failures or fish that died off

Ingo


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tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Thanks tetratech for the compliment on the tank. I find the right group too strong, btw, and I am considering making it much smaller.


Duh! I believe that's what I was telling you.

Your conversation with your wife should be more like this:

tetratech: I found a great way to make money
She: let me hear
tetratech: we could sell load of easy to ship aquarium plants on the internet
She: really?
tetratech: yeah, and the best thing is, all we need is a grow-out tank



My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2007 17:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
ImRandy85
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I finally convinced my girlfriend to let me buy a 20 gallon tank for our apartment so we went out to the local fish stores looking at 20's and stands and all the equipment. We got to one store and acted unsure about the 20 and then he told us the 29 was only $15 more and then he gave me a really good deal on a 38 so we ended up bringing the 38 home.

LF, could you take a look at my post in the cichlid forum about sexing apistos. I know you had some trouble with yours a while back so I thought maybe you could offer some insight. Hope your male keeps getting better.
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Nice story on how to double the original size of a tank there, imrandy85

We all know that the best tanks are the largest one can afford (in size and cost).

I also added an entry to your thread, but I am not sure if it helps.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2007 20:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Budzilla
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Looking at the front and back pics, i have to say i'm not sure which side is better looking. Which is a good thing. I would just send the apisto to quarintine after the new fish have left, so that he can experience a CO2 Free zone.

-Vincent
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Vincent,

Thanks for the comments and compliments on the tank and fish. I personally prefer the front view as I like the valley opening between the hills and the fact that all equipment is on the other side. Overall, I am rather pleased with the fact that not even one side of the tank is really ugly.

Thanks,

Ingo


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LF,

The tank really looks nice. This is by far my favorit tank of yours. The Flash looks like he is doing better but still looks a little funny. Kind of thin looking I guess.

Hope all is well.=!

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Thanks Wings for the compliment on the tank.

Yeah, he is rather thin (not skinny yet) and rather small for the time that I have him already. Actually, the female I bought with him (the pair) is also smaller than Matty's females, by quite a bit.

Ingo


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Maybe you should start feeding frozen food or even live black worms. That will thicken them up!

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 42

Nothing at all to report about the tank, all is the same bla bla, meaning fish eats bubbles, growth is good, considering redo, ergo nothing new.

Here is the one and only shot for this week:

Attached Image:

Week 42



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ergo nothing new.


Looks good though , eh? I'm a big fan of this tank I've decided.



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I'm a big fan of this tank I've decided

Oh no, , just in time when I decided that it needs change

During the water change I only had the 96w unit on in the middle of the tank. It seems sooooo dark now as the tops are really tall and wide.

Ingo


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It's ok, It will live on in the pictures.

I think it's neat because it's really contrasty. Super bright green, almost black in the dark areas. Just neat. It would probably bug me though if I had to take care of it. Just knowing that the darkness keeps encroaching on everything else.



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Like the tank too, but still want to see the right side reduced

My Scapes
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I seem to remember a couple/three years ago commenting
about what one does when a tank reaches this point.

You and Tetra seem to have postponed the dilemma by
simply putting your energy into creating more and
more beautiful tanks rather than having just one.

If the scuttlebutt holds true that some of these plant
friendly substrates wear out over a year or two, then
you guys are all set. About the time the tank reaches
maturity and you grow "bored" with it, it would be time
to tear it apart and start anew.

Actually, you are probably right. As the tank unfolded
over these months, I personally lost track of the fact
that it is supposed to be a "Breeder Tank" and not just
another beautiful show tank. If you were to breed some
fish in this tank that eventually required you move the
parents to another tank, rear the fry, and then you had
to catch the fry to sell them, or move them, you would
have the devils own time trying to net any fish in that
beautiful, planted tank.

Frank


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Like the tank too, but still want to see the right side reduced


That's what I would be going for, but it is a major undertaking. The ferns on the 3 main branches, plus the NL Fern that I just tossed into the middle between them, plus the various Anubias Nanas in there have all formed one major major major net of rhizomes and roots. If you pull on one end the whole hill comes alive with movement, all interconnected.


Frank, Breeder is just the name of the tank shape, like Long for another shape. I am not too much hung up on the idea of using it specifically for this purpose, although it would be nice if the Apisto would show some productivity. I selected this tank shape because it has the greates depth compared to the lenght and height of an standard tanks that do not cost a fortune. Depth is very important for scaping, just think about front- middle- and background. The fact that this tank is a walkaround makes the depth even more important as each side (at least the long ones) is a front. This would have been impossible to do in a 55 with its lousy 12" of depth.

If I had a choice, I would have a tank of 36" long, 24" deep, and 18" heigh. That would be awesome

Ingo


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TW
 
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I would have a tank of 36" long, 24" deep, and 18" high
I know it's on the dark side, a place where we usually venture not - but that is almost the size of hubby's marine.

It is 36" long, 24" deep, and 24" high - perfect for building nice coral reefs - although we are not as talented as Matty & the others, it still looks quite nice.

Cheers
TW
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I should try and take a picture of our reef tanks from work sometime. LxWxH : 48x36x18 I would love to have them take one down so I could set it up as a planted tank! Odds of that happening any time soon?

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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You guys are too much, trying to get me to get a bigger tank, aren't you?

Anyway:

Robyn - your husband's tank is too high for me, 24 inches don't lean themselves to pruning maintenance etc. Plus - you need quite some light over that baby.
Wings - that is a whopping 135G, . 36" deep is awesome though, but overall way too large.

Ingo


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TW
 
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Yes, but his corals don't need pruning & the height & depth mean that a nice reef reef could be built on a gentle slope, ensuring good light to all the corals.

Still, I may go 22" in my 3ft planted (not yet ordered - still undecided). Yes, yes, I know - not your favourite height. But that's the height of tetratech's 72G & his tank always looks pretty darn good to me.

Decisions, decisions - I hate them.

Cheers
TW
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If I had a choice, I would have a tank of 36" long, 24" deep, and 18" high. That would be awesome


LF, check it out:

http://www.glasscages.com/?sAction=ViewCat&lCatID=2

It's called the 65 wide, 36 X 24 X 17, available in glass or acrylic. It's pictured with euro bracing, but I'm sure you could get it with standard bracing. About $300 will get the acrylic shipped right to your door, the glass would have to be picked up somewhere.

Now I'll be on my merry way...


Back in the saddle!
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Oh NowherMan6,

Now you get me fantasizing about a new tank again

I have seen that site before and looked at several of their tanks, but never could convince myself that going to some pickup place is the right thing to do.

Plus, the tank in the picture is really ugly, with that glass bracing being in the way like mad, .

That is Eurot**** bracing,

I am very concerned about an Acrylic tank though, it is like owning a new car and getting the first scratch in it, just horrible. And I will get scratches, with kids and stuff (the cats died).

Also, I didn't find a stand for this tank on their site, I guess I would have to call Matty down from the mountains to help me with the handy work and built one myself (BTW, an object that is wider than 20" in its narrowest dimension would have to be assembled in the basement, the walkway - and door - would not permit larger stuff).

I noticed that some of their dimensions seem to be off when referring to their supposed volume. Like the one they call 40 Long with 36 x 18 x 13. That doesn't seem right at all as my 40 Breeder is 36 x 18 x 16. And what exactly would make theirs a 40 Long? I find it rather short

Ingo


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Their volumes are off, for the most part they're approximations (my 65 is technically 63.6) - they mention at the top of the page to go by the dimensions, not the listed volume.

And yes, that eurobracing is god awful But I don't think it's standard, thankfully.

As for the acrylic, it's not as bad as some make it out to be. It's VERY clear for one thing, and whatever kind they use to make their tanks, it's better than the stuff those little 2.5 G bowfronts are made off. I've been tinkering around in my tank with driftwood for a few months now, without a scratch.

Anyway, it's just an idea - the tank of your dreams is out there.


Back in the saddle!
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Anyway, it's just an idea

It is a great idea, NowherMan6

I didn't want to give you the impression that it did not strike me as an option, just have to get my act together first.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by FRANK


Hi.
Must be the old age... Ever since you started this thread
I've taken the title literally and as the tank progressed
you kept speaking of the fish and their fry. Ah well, at
least that explains (to me) why your "breeder" tank is so
lushly planted.

Isn't that a neat site Glass cages? Such a variety.

I wonder... how does one get that 400G tank off the truck?


You'd have to have a block party, several "6 packs" and
a boat load of pizzas to move that critter, not to mention
a special, extra wide, door.

Frank


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Frank,

I can clearly see where the confusion is coming from, as you are right, I always talk about the Apisto fry that does not happen

I think I actually would prefer a lush breeding tank as I like what happened in my 125G when my Espei population jumped from 12 to about 100, all in a natural setting. Granted, the number of survivors is probably less, but it appeals more to me.

Ingo


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TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
My baby kribs were born in a fairly heavily planted tank - although their home now has been thinned & changed quite a bit from that look. Frank - it is the tank with the offensive silver heater - which I must do something about.

Cheers
TW
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Weekly Tank Update - Week 43

Well, I feel like a little review of this tank over the last 30 weeks is in place, only to show the growth that happened over that time period.

Here you can see the tank in week 13, still containing the Micro Sword ground cover. Have a closer look at the Bolbitis leaves that you can see coming out on the left. Also, note the tiny 3 bunches of Narrow Leaf Java Fern (which may or may not be the Phillipine type). 2 are clearly visible, the 3rd is more or less hidden all the way on the right behind a branch. All 3 have been tied a little upwards onto the driftwood.

Attached Image:

Week 13



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10 weeks later, in week 23, the ground cover had been mostly replaced with some other plants, mostly Blyxa. You can see the Java Fern has grown a bit, I also added some "true" Narrow Leaf Java Fern from the 125 into the middle of that hill. You can note its really slim appearance.

The Bolbitis is beginning to grow, it took a little for it to settle.

Attached Image:

Week 23



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By week 33, both ferns, the Java and the Bolbitis, had truly settled and began to grow on a faster pace. No longer can one make out the individual bushels of Narrow Leaf on the branches, it all has become a unit.

And the Bolbits just keeps on growing.

Attached Image:

Week 33



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And here is the tank now from this weekend, week 43.

As you can see, the Bolbits and Java Fern have grown even more in the last 10 weeks, now both reaching the surface. A trim may be needed, but I know it will require some major action to do so.

In general, the week was calm and not much happened to the tank.

Attached Image:

Week 43 - This Weekend



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
PLEASE MAKE SURE TO HAVE A LOOK AT THE SMALL TANK HISTORY REVIEW ON BOTTOM OF PREVIOUS PAGE

Ok,

On to some detail shots. The first one is also from a few weeks back, from 3/18 to be exact. It shows the Blyxa in the front of the tank after it received more light for one week. You may note the newest leaves turning yellow/red/brownish.

Attached Image:

Blyxa 3/18



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And here is the same plant now, 3 weeks later. As you can see, it is much more yellow/red/brownish than it was in the last shot.

I am actually not so sure if I like it this way, the individual leaves seem also to be more curled up than they were when being green, almost as if they were wilting.

Attached Image:

Blyxa Now



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And just to show Matty that I am taking good care of his girls, here is the less dominant one looking for food on the side of the tank. She is being chased by the more dominant one whenever that one gets the chance to do so.

Attached Image:

Female I



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And here is a shot of the dominant one, as you can see she is a little more yellow than the other one. Unfortunately it all is for nothing as the male shows no interest in mating, he chases her away all the time.

Attached Image:

Dominant Female



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I didn't get a shot this time around of the smallest, non-Matty, female. She is actually the yellowest of all, and hangs most often in the male's area (but not too close, or if so then sideways laying flat in a very devot position).

Here is the male, a little out from his usual hang-out spot close to the diffuser. That spot is the one he is defending, his source of drugs

Attached Image:

Male



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Here is a shot of the cleaner crew of the tank, or at least a few representatives of each. The Amanos actually hold their ground against the Otos, when one of the latter comes to close then it almost appears as if they attack them. The end result is that the Otos flee the battle field.

Attached Image:

Otos and Amano



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Last shot for today is a look at the most disturbing place of the tank, the area behind the gap from the front (viewed from the back). Here, some form of very slow spreading algae has spread all over the wood that closes the gap. It looks rather decorative when contained, I could imagine a whole ground cover of this stuff, if it wouldn't spread all over the plants that is.

That's it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Algae Carpet



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Looking good. Love the bobitus. When I look at this tank, it reminds me of two people meeting on the dance floor and one has to eventually lead, if you get my meaning.

Have you ever giving dropped a wafer in the tank and watched the fish chase the shrimp all over the place for it? It's really funny?

Alot of waste probably accumulates in the middle area, just suck stuff out more often.



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Yeah, that algae you can see is feeding directly on detritus it's collected. Otherwise I doubt it would persist. I have a little spot like that in my 50.

Glad to see the females are doing well. I would think that even if the males didn't look so fantastic, I'd still want to keep the females. What other fish is that yellow and so often overlooked?

Anyhow, I really like the progression of this tank. but I think it will most definitely need a trim, just to be able to continue growing. It's like that with the HM in my tank. Every two weeks I throw out about a pound or so.



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Post InfoPosted 08-Apr-2007 17:13Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Have you ever giving dropped a wafer in the tank and watched the fish chase the shrimp all over the place for it?

You know, I never added any wafers into this tank. Who would they be for? The Otos? The Amanos?

it reminds me of two people meeting on the dance floor and one has to eventually lead, if you get my meaning.

- Absolutely

What other fish is that yellow and so often overlooked?

Well, when there was no male around, all the females did was squabble with each other and none was yellow at all.



Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2007 00:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Very interesting recap of the tank LF. It all looks so beautiful.
Well, when there was no male around, all the females did was squabble with each other and none was yellow at all.
Yep, in my experience an apisto girl without a male = a dirty brown looking girl. Add a male and that's when you'll see the yellow.

There seem to be a lot of reluctant dwarf cichlid romeos. I have one tank with agassizii male & 3 girls & another has nigerian red pair. In both tanks it seems the girls are keen but the males don't seem interested. What's up with these boys.

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Hmm...I had a maleless apisto female that was beautifully yellow for quite a while without...too bad I had to take her back to the store when I moved.



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EditedEdited by tankwatcher
Lucky Matty - my females have sometimes even gone brown if the male is there. Yellow showed me she was either in the "mood" or she was guarding. This was with my cac & my bita. You'd swear they were 2 different fish - depending on their mood. My agassizii girls, who I've only had a couple of weeks are always yellow - so it would be interesting to see what happened if the male left the scene (if they'd stay yellow or not).

The Amanos actually hold their ground against the Otos, when one of the latter comes to close then it almost appears as if they attack them. The end result is that the Otos flee the battle field.
That's surprising. My otos held their ground against all my guarding female apistos (cac, bita) and also held their ground against the krib mum too. With the krib mum, it cost them their tails (which have grown back) but they never seemed to care & usually the guarding mum was the one to get frustrated & give up, sick of of her "attack" being basically ignored.

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With the krib mum, it cost them their tails

I guess mine are a little smarter than

Mine are actually still rather young and not yet fully grown (2/3rd the size of the ones in the 125G).

They have been well groomed by me, flight is better than loosing your tail could be one of my "rules on live"

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EditedEdited by tankwatcher
Agreed, yours are MUCH smarter. Mine are just plain stubborn and if they didn't want to move, they wouldn't - although you would think 2 otos, 1 mum krib & fry in 20G could find plenty of space without getting in each other's way.

Just plain stubborn.

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Weekly Tank Update - Week 45

Well, there was no update last week as I went on vacation and did not have time to take a shot of the tank. I took one this weekend though, but I did not perform a water change (as I will do one during the week before our next club meeting - at my place).

The only thing to note is that I am not so certain I like the new Blyxa color and leaf shape, it seems to cause quite a few of them to grow rather smallish leaves and they come loose (the whole plant) much more often.

I cannot find one of the Apisto females (one of Matty's) either, even when looking at the tank with a flash light shining in the caves.

That's it for today, here is the tank,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Week 45



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Post InfoPosted 23-Apr-2007 02:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Can't imagine how you could lose a fish in there :

I'm sure she'll show up.



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No, seriously Matty,

I think I spent about 30min just searching, and that was right after feeding. Doesn't look good I have to say.

Ingo


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Has she turned up? How long has it been? Could she be guarding? If that's not the reason for her absence at dinner time, I agree, doesn't sound good.

I commonly didn't see my female when guarding, particularly in a heavily planted tank. Hope she turns up.

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Thanks for asking Robyn,

I believe I have seen her two nights ago, but I cannot be certain. Both of Matty's females look alike and I never see two of them at the same time. So my challenge is to know exactly where one is while I search for the other, and in this heavily planted tank that is not easy as the visible female is always on the move.

What I found last night though, when searching in the underwoods with my flashlight, was a Cherry Shrimp. That was kind of a surprise to me.

Ingo


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With regards to my last entry and the Shrimp that I found:

It gets even better

Last night I found a baby shrimp, maybe 1/3 of an inch long and reddish. I could not take a picture of it as it was in the root system of an Anubias, a wise position as the shrimp would make an excellent snack for an Apisto.

Ingo


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If you have one, there's bound to be more. Cool, LF!



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Weekly Tank Update - Week 45

I had to do a water change earlier during the week as I hosted the NJAGC meeting yesterday. I used that chance to clean the glass really well, something I haven't done in quite a while and it showed. The result was that people believed my water to be very clear, maybe it always was but I couldn't see it that well through the dirty glass .

I finally had it with the Blyxa, the floating and stunted growth drove me nuts. I removed all remaining stems and now have an almost non-planted surrounding of the hills, something that tetratech suggested all along.

Here is the tank,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Week 45



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Post InfoPosted 29-Apr-2007 14:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hi Ingo,
I started with this thread, and worked my way "upward"
through the rest of yours... I suspect that it is a good
thing that you don't host the club meeting every month!
If so, you would be one tuckered puppy.
The tanks all look beautiful
and yes clean glass does help!

Frank

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I had to do a water change earlier during the week as I hosted the NJAGC meeting yesterday
and I didn't get an invite. Imagine introducing me to the NJAGC. "And all the way from Long Island. The Self Proclaimed King of Protist Destruction"

Anyway yeah I think it looks better without the distracting Blyxa. I of course would like to see the mounds firmed up with the rockwork and of course the trimming of the right group, but one could only dream.
Funny thing, I took my Blyxa out of my 72G yesterday. I was tired of it. I think you had a similiar issue as I did in that the Blyxa did not put out a big root system. It just wasn't adding anything to me tank. I'll probably try it again in a different setup at some point.

My Scapes
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and I didn't get an invite


You never asked to be invited

I think technically you would have to be a member (but for sure you could have been my personal guest) to attend a meeting.

Yeah, it looks "cleaner" with less plants around the hills, but maybe it will not look that good anymore when I trim the right group (someday).

Frank - You read all the logs? Very much appreciated
I am also glad that I don't host all our meetings, my wife would for sure not like this as I would spend way more time than usual on preparation and maintenance than usual.

Ingo


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I got some pictures to add, some nice and some rather sad I have to say.

Let's start of neutral. Yes the tank still has some HC, but it doesn't do much. It neither grows nor shrinks, it is just there. But the pieces that are there seem settled though.

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HC



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In addition, and actually what started this photo session tonight, was the discovery of this thing in the Bolbitis. BTW, I see some of you writing it Bolbitus, where does that come from? Tropica uses my version.

Anyway, this is what I saw:

Attached Image:

???



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In case you can't make out what it is, I got a better shot a little later on.

The RCS must have been born in the tank. It is about 2/3 of an inch long. They must be good hiders, I have to say.

Attached Image:

RCS



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Now it gets a little sadder, if that is a word.

Look at this constellation. Here you have the male Apisto coming in from the back, a female on the right posing, and in the middle the female that I could not find for the longest.

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Warfare I



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Now, the male came forward, and the middle female does try to get out of the way of the other female, probably not looking for the male from the other side.

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Warfare II



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And here we go, the male attacks. Just in the last second was the female able to dash out of the male's way.

BTW, all shots were taken at the dark area on the left short end of the tank, that is why they are rather shabby in quality.

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Warfare III



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Here is the male. He is not friendly to any of the females, the one he tolerates the most is the youngest (not pictured in this series), but even she is not safe.

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Male Apisto



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Here is the female that was first on the right of the Warfare series. She is in pretty good shape and sometimes offers herself to the male, but he is more into chasing her than taking the offer.

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Female I



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And here is the saddest of all, the female from the middle. When I saw her for the first time since she dissapeared on me I was in shock.

She is smaller now than the other female (both from Matty and about the same age), looks rather pale and spotty all over the body, and is just a very sad looking fishy.

I don't know what is wrong with her, maybe she guarded fry seriously and lost a lot of weight and strenght in the process. She is out more often now.

The picture shows her and her reflection in the side panel.

That's it for now,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Female II



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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Nice to see all the females still there. Too bad about all the aggression from the male. It doesn't seem to wear too bad on the females though, they have full bellies, and decent color. It's probably because they are able to disappear in the fern for a while.

I guess I don't have much help on why the male behaves how he does. I would just guess it's an individual thing.

Nice pics

EDIT: Just saw the last post....that one does look a bit skinny. Couldn't tell from the other pics. Maybe she's out and will eat a bit more now. I hope she pulls though alright.



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EditedEdited by wingsdlc
The RCS must have been born in the tank. It is about 2/3 of an inch long. They must be good hiders, I have to say.
As thick as your tank is with all the ferns, I am not that shocked that you are now finding RCS babies. I know from my tank that they are great hiders. Though, now that I have overpopulation going on with them I can always see some shrimp around. Do you have Amanos in this tank too?

As for the Apistos. It is good to know that they are all still alive. Though, it's too bad that they don't play nice. What types of food are you feeding these guys? It probably wouldn't hurt to try a live or frozen food to beef them up a bit. Your wife probably wouldn't like that though...


EDIT: So LF! Why haven't you been over to see my new pictures?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Yeah, she does look skinny and somewhat out of shape colorwise as well

Frozen food means I have to buy a mini-fridge just for it, as you identified right, Wings

And I will be off looking at your new pictures right now, if I find them.

Ingo


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Nice HC and rcs Ingo, wish I could have the HC in my tank, but I have too low wattage . Pretty little stuff though.

Too bad about the "Apisto Wars". Maybe if you ask them nicely (and bribe them with live food) then they might stop .

Keep it up !


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Thanks Morgan for the input,

Yeah - I don't know what this HC needs, I have a 96W unit right on top of it and it still doesn't take off, although it is in there since maybe around 5 months (if I remember that right). I would assume it cannot be a lack of ferts, I use the dosing and have EC as a substrate.

I pretty much give up on the Apistos and just let them be. I have a female that seems all sad and a male that is CO2 addicted, just the 2 other females seem normal (but I begin to doubt that they are of the same kind, as Matty's females look different - size and detail coloration - than the smaller one that I got with the male).

Oh - Wings - yeah, there are Amanos in the tank as well.

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 47

Well, today I had enough of the totally overgrown tank - and albeit I didn't have the time to do a full Ingo-Redo, I at least completely dismanteled the right group, including the removal of all wood on the hill.

I took out all the needle fern that I stuck in there from the 125G (which I thought was narrow fern, but the gang told me otherwise). Then I removed all the narrow fern and placed a smaller batch in the center of the hill, rather than on the woods half way up as they were before.

Here is the tank:

Attached Image:

Week 47



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
To me, it feels rather naked now, I guess I will have to give it some time to fill in a little more.

Here is a closer look at the new right side. Some of the Anubias have been removed as well and placed in the 125G.

Also, note the Apisto and Amano in front

Attached Image:

New Group



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Here is a look at the same group from the back, again with an Apisto in the picture.

In general (as you will see in more shots), the wildlife of the tank is more visible for now

Attached Image:

Back New Group



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And here is a shot of the whole tank from the back, again with an Apisto - this time the male.

I assume that sooner or later the right side will need a redo as well, but I will hold off for a while until the tank is more settled again.

Attached Image:

Full Back



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One animal that I thought was gone from this tank was the cherry shrimp group, but recently I found one or two. During the redo I saw at least 4, of different sizes.

Here is a bad shot of the adult one:

Attached Image:

Cherry Shrimp



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Here is a clearer shot of a young one, maybe 1/2 an inch in length.

Most that I have seen are about that size, maybe up to 2/3rd of an inch:

Attached Image:

More Shrimp



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And later on, when doing the full tank shot, I found this one in the Bolbitis.

He is also in the first picture of the full tank, but only visible as a red spot in the top right part of the Bolbitis:

Attached Image:

Shrimp In Plant



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And yes, Amanos are also still in the tank, although I haven't counted 7 (the initial load) in quite a while. Either some died or they hide too well.

Once in a while I can count 5.

Attached Image:

Amano



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On the other hand, I have a much easier time counting the Otos, and as of last Wednesday they have all been accounted for.

This was a surprise as I bought them way too young and as soon as they were in the LFS. I for sure assumed that I will loose one or the other.

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Oto



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And because she was not in the photo series from this week - she prefers to stay out of the way when fighting is going on - here is a look at the younger female Apisto.

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Female Apisto



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH


LOOK AT THE PICTURES ON PREVIOUS PAGE FOR UPDATES ON TANK LAYOUT AND MORE PHOTOS



I don't think she is a double-orange, or an orange at all. She has a rather plain yellow black dress, unlike Matty's that have some orange in the fins.

Nevertheless, I like her.

That's it for today,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Female Again



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Nice pics Ingo, and nice storytelling as well

That right side did need some housekeeping, looks good


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Pretty nice shrimp shots. The tank was in need of some trimming. I am sure it will be back to over grown in no time. Right now I kind of feel like this tank is missing something. It doesn't seem tied altogether any more.

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It doesn't seem tied altogether any more.

I agree, and I think it is the fact that the hills have no connection with each other. Maybe the HC will finally start to grow in some more and connect the 2 blocks.

There is also the need for a trim on the left hill though.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
I agree, and I think it is the fact that the hills have no connection with each other.

You've created to separate groupings and have two distinct focal groups. You need to push the entire right side more to the center so it's not left vs right and have some more blending with "BOB" dominating. Right now it's a battle.

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Who is BOB? I'm confused.

I think it looks like a tank that just got overhauled, so I don't think I can say what could to be done, except to let it grow out a bit. It sure looks a lot brighter in that tank though. I think that the bolbitis and java could easily mesh again to make a cohesive group, bu moving them closer together would help that.



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BOB - must be BO-l-B-itis

Yeah, I could start moving things around, but I am into waiting a little. In particular because the left side will need some trimming as well, given that all new Bolbitis leaves are floating on the surface.

And what is wrong with a battle anyway,

Ingo


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Seems I'm out voted, but I like the less is more look of your tank after the trim. I see more detail of each plant, plus as you point out, we can more easily spot your occupants. But then again, I'm not such an artist at planting as the rest of you.

The plants will grow so quickly, that any filling out that might be needed, will happen all too soon.

Enjoyed all the shrimp & fish shots too. These shrimps are not easy to find here, but I'm thinking of getting some cherry reds, if I can find them. I thought apistos would eat them - but yours seem to do okay together?

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Robyn,

LOL, you are not outnumbered - you have 4 votes

Anyway:

I thought apistos would eat them - but yours seem to do okay together?

You may not have seen this photo a while back then, right?

Ingo

Attached Image:




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mmmmmmmnumnumnum.

This is why I'm hesitating to put even the adults in my 50. I think they would get munched on by the pearl gourami. Oh well I guess. I still like them in the 5.5.



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Matty,

The one in his mouth was an adult and not one of the juveniles. I chased down the Apisto and tried to remove it as I was worried he will choke to death (he was breathing hard). But, after I finally got the Apisto like 30min later, I only could recover the back half of the shrimp as it fell out of his mouth. The rest was on its way to his stomach

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Ok,

On to my horror story from this week. While planning to update my first frozen food feeding documentation in the 20G QT log, I had to change my mind as Thursday evening turned into a High Tech Nightmare. But from the beginning:

I decided to go to my fishroom, aka basement, around 7PM to feed the fishies. I haven't seen them all day as I was at work.

So once I come down there, the first thing I see is an Oto on its side on the substrate of the 40G. So naturally, I think he died, once in a while fish die. Upon closer inspection, I notice that he is still breathing, and soon after I see an Amano also on its side kicking its legs. Now this seems odd and I look to see if I find more of this kind. But instead, I cannot find any other fish at all.

After a few seconds, I noticed the diffuser going like mad. I check on the bubble counter below the tank and bubbles are rushing through like crazy, for some reason, the low pressure gauge went from 8psi to 14psi, aka all the way up. I had a new CO2 bottle hooked up on Monday and it was almost empty, Panick!!!

I removed the lights and glass cover, put one light back on and hunted for fish. Overall, I collected 5 of the 6 Otos, and the weakest (not because of this, just in genenral) of all Apisto Females. I could take them out by hand as neither had the strenght to swim away. I placed them in a small net and without adjustment phase placed the net in the 125G, but in a way that the fish cannot swim or fall out.

Once completed, I lowered the water level about 20% and had the spraybar above the water line to create as much oxygination spelling) as possible, furthermore I added a small air pump to the tank. And this is when I had the time to take the first picture:

Attached Image:

Tank In Danger



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In this picture you can see the rescues fishies in the net in the 125G, there was no danger of them jumping out as they barely moved. They stayed in there for maybe an hour.

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Rescued Fish



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Here you can see another shot of the spraybar pumping water into the tank. By that time I had found the other two female Apistos, which where hiding behind the heater at the surface and because I lowered the surface they came into view.

I also found the male, but I had to remove the entire right group to get him out from underneath the wood.

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Spray Bar



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About an hour after I stared the airation the situation seemed to have gotten better, the Amano that was on its side was uptright again, but didn't move otherwise yet.

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Amano



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And another hour later the Apistos were swimming again. Here is the female that is in best shape. Now the other ones were also back in the tank.

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Female Apisto One



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And here is a shot of the youngest female, she actually seemed to have made it through the event the best of the 3 females.

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Apisto Female Two



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Here is a look at the male, once he recovered he sure did not look happy. I don't know what upset him more, the fact that he almost died or the fact that the CO2 was turned off completely now.

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Apisto Male



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And here is the only Oto that I could find in the tank after I added them back in, he was just sitting on the ground. I think they in particular took it pretty hard.

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Oto



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And, for what it is worth, by chance I got the best shot ever of the male Apisto after the situation was back under control. Do you agree?

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Apisto Ingo



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
And even better, my buddy Joe from the NJAGC took exactly the picture above and ran it through some photo software. The result shows me that I think I have to learn more about that aspect of photo taking.

Now I will take a short break, feed the fish, and then continue with some shots from the next day.

Attached Image:

Apisto Male Joe



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OK,

On with the story. BTW, feeding now concluded in me seeing all the 6 Otos, so all are still there.

Here is closer look at the strongest female the following day, as if nothing had happened.

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Apisto



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I actually ran the tank without CO2 from Thursday to Saturday afternoon, it seems like it did ok.

Morgan, we just talked about this in your log, the air bubble producing algae. Here is some hair algae on my HC that produced the only air bubble in the tank without CO2 injection:

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Air Bubble



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The Amanos seem to have recovered as well, although I never find them all anyway. I have supposedly 7 but at most I counted 5.

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Amano



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Ha, did you notice the small patch of BBA next to it? One should not assume that my tank is spotless, LOL.

Here is another Amanon, showing why it is so hard to find them. He is in the middle of the Bolbitis Fern bush.

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Amano Again



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
PLEASE MAKE SURE TO VIEW THE PREVIOUS PAGE FOR A REVUE OF THE CRISIS I HAD LAST WEEK, WITH LOADS OF PICTURES

Now, we talked of all the fish and critters that were suffering, but there was one that seemed to be thriving. As if it would be the best day of their lives, maybe because of the lack of pretadors, these guys were out and about during the entire event.


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Cherry



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I counted at least one adult and 5 juveniles, most were pretty red, aka girls.

That concludes the horror story, I seem to have made it through ok. Long term effects will show themselves later. On with one more Shrimp shot, and then follows the weekly update.

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Red Baron(ess)



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Weekly Tank Update - Week 48

What a week it was, if you read the previous posts then you know what I mean.

Well, this weekend all was back to normal, the CO2 was hooked up again (and yes, the first action of the male Apisto was to get a good hit).

Here is the tank after the water change and some trimming of the Bolbitis:

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Week 48



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I want to show you the 3 Apisto females in comparison, as you sure will notice some differences between them. And this is not CO2 crisis related.

First off, here is the young female that came with the male.

Attached Image:

Young



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And here in comparison is the strongest female that I got from Matty. As you can see, she has some red in her fin while the young one does not at all. Ergo - she (the young one) is not a double-orange. But she is nice anyway.

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Female Strong



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And now check out the weak one of the adult females. She is another one I got from Matty and not too long ago she looked just like the other one. But then she went into hiding and only recently came back out and is visible more often. This would not be the after-effects of fry care, or would it be that way?

Also, note the much stronger red in the gills.

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Weak Female



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Last but not least, a shot of the HC under the influence of CO2 and a water change.

As you can see, there are many more bubbles on it and this time they don't come from any algae. I actually removed most of the hair algae that was surrounding it. In the background you may be able to notice an Amano.

Puh, that was a long log update (as I also updated the 20, 29, and 125 logs - go check them out), but now I am done,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

HC Bubbler



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That's a drama you could have done without Glad all have recovered, including the otos.

I had this same thing happen to me much earlier last year and I think it seems that as long as you catch it before they die and then start aerating the water, recovery is good. Mine all recovered by taking same action as you.

Lucky you did not pull an all nighter in the office on that particular day/night. Otherwise, by morning it may have all been too late.

Very nice shot of the male, as well as your other fishies too.

Cheers
TW
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Sorry to hear about the Co2 mishap. If your in this hobby long enough especially with multiple tanks something will eventually go wrong as you can probably recall the Tetratech Brewery

I was as lucky, many of my fish succumbed to it.



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Yeah good thing they all recovered, that would have been horrible if all of your Apistos died (and of course your ottos and shrimp)

About the algea: so it must be true then, that algea can bubble (now if only my plants might follow suit )


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wow, what a story. I've been pretty dang lucky so far, to have my CO2 act properly, especially when I was running DIY for quite a while, no check valves or any of that business. I'm glad to see the fish made it out ok for the most part. The tank looks good btw.



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Thanks folks for the input,

I am as glad as I can be that I made it through that event without any further damage, but - at least for the time being - I am paramoid about the regulator going crazy again. I was checking the gauges hourly yesterday,

Matty, any idea about the "weak" female thing (see pictures above)?

Ingo


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Ingo , Hi I've been reading this log and your 125g log . Wow , I'm amazed at your ability to scape tanks . They both look fantastic . My wife tells me I've become addicted .
I've just come back to the hobby after 30 years . I love planted tanks and have a 60g with which I have been relearning and trying to catch up with all the advancements . I came onto this site looking for advice as I'm setting up a 6 ft tank and reading your logs have taught me so much . Thank you for all your efforts in keeping the posts going for so long .
I have a lot of questions that I would like to ask you , however I don't want to hijack your thread so I will try to ask them in context . One that I need to resolve , as I'm in the purchase stage for my new tank , did you guys ever resolve the flow rate discussion you had re canister filters ???
Looking forward to further instalments .
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Well I'd want to get her into a tank of her own, away from the male and other females, if you can. That will definitely help her eat if she's not now. I'd doubt it's parasites or something since you've had her so long now.

Sorry for the late reply....I'm out of town.



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Could you put her in the 20 or 29?

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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First off, thanks Garry for the nice compliments. Believe me, I sure learned a lot during the last 2 years as a member of FP (where is my second bar as today is 2 years?), but I am still far far away from being an excellent scaper.

Wings and Matty, I haven't been reading my thread in a few days either so I didn't see your suggestion until now. The female Apisto is very elusive and I rarely see her, maybe once every other day. I doub't that I can catch her, with all the hiding places and stuff, without ripping it all apart or waiting until she is too weak to "run away".

Anyway:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 49

Not much has happened during this week, all is the same. I added some plants, or maybe I should say I parked them as they will eventually go somewhere else.

Here is a full tank shot:

Attached Image:

Week 49



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The additions are on the back side of the tank, namely a group of Nana Petites.

Oh did you notice in the last shot the red dot on the front rightish hand of the tank? That would be a cherry shrimp. And maybe you saw the yellowish small plant dead center - that is a Eriocaulon cinereum, but so weak and tiny that it probably will not make it.

Here are 6 Petites:

Attached Image:

6 Petites



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And only one more shot for now, another 4 petites in the back right corner of the tank, all out of focus

In the shot is also the male Apisto and the youngest female.

That's it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Group Shot



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Oh goodie,

Nobody has anything to say about this tank. Well, just let me know if you had enough and I will end the entries.

In the meantime:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 50

Not much happened this week, with the exception that my Amanos were in one spot all over each other for an entire week. I assume it is breeding related.

On another note, I haven't seen the weak Apisto female in at least 5 days, I have to assume she is gone.

Tank is really overgrown in the Bolbitis area right now, but I am too busy () to do a major redo at this time. As a result, fern leaves are starting to grown out of the water.

Attached Image:

Bolbitis



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And here is the full tank, not much to see there. Oh, the Nana Petites from the shots from last week are no longer in the tank, they are now part of the 125G layout.

That's it,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Week 50



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Ingo , fishing for compliments . I don't feel up to making too many comments on your tanks , but I read your logs and updates avidly . Please please don't stop posting to this or your other logs. We would all be that much poorer . By the way I have read all your logs all the way thru and I do not believe the
but I am too busy () to do a major redo at this time
comment . I'm sure you are already thinking of what to do Look forward to some thoughts from you when I start my log in the next week or so .
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Well Garry,

I am actually at a loss when it comes to a redo of this tank at this point, my inspiration was just good enough for the big one.

I will not stop posting (just renewed my premie) when I know that people actually read what I write, this is not some ego-trip that I am on, just simply a matter of time wasted or not.

I am looking forward to your log, if you have read all my logs (this was a major job on your end, thumbs up to you for that ) then you pretty much will know what I have to say:

- loads of plants, right substrate and light, not toooo many fish, know your ferts ... and so forth

Thanks for letting me know that someone is looking,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by Platy_Punk
Out of all your tanks this one may be my favorite .
Mainly because you have some of the same plants I have so I can always look at yours to see what mine should look like. I have a small bolbitis fern also that I just attached to my large piece of driftwood. I was guessing it was a slow grower but after seeing yours I started contimplating that . Anyway my tanks floor is all micro sword, I noticed you had that as your ground cover but took it out, why? Aslo what ferts do you use? I use some from the Seachem line.
Well I really like you log so dont stop it!
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
That stinks about the female, sorry to hear.

This tank currently looks a bit lopsided, so I can't hardly comment on it in its current condition. I'm sure you'll get a plan for it after you've moved on past the 125.

Nice pics, and obviously don't stop updating You think it's bad in here.....try having a SW tank



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Platy_Punk - thanks for stopping by, here are some answers for you:

- Bolbitis in general takes a while to settle in, but once it does it usually grows rather fast. I have some of it (clippings, so to speak) in my 29G, that is a low tech tank with 65W and almost no ferts, and it hasn't grown much at all in about 2 months (I think, maybe you want to check that log to see the date when I added it).

- I took out the micro sword as it didn't work for me. Not that it didn't grow, but I found it too "unorganized", as in not so pretty, and too tall (3 to 4 inches).

- I use dry ferts for the macros and Tropicas Plant Nutrient for the micros.


Matty - Once my back is better again (12 hours of bending over plant buckets left their mark) and once I can convice the wife that I need to spend another entire day on a tank I will change this one as well. I think one main hill in the middle may be the better thing to do here. And the Bolbitis may actually be too large for the tank. But I am currently only thinking out loud.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-May-2007 21:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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haven't seen the weak Apisto female in at least 5 days, I have to assume she is gone.
sorry to hear that Your male is an orange flash, isn't he? I had forgotten - but can see differences between him & my new double red (or tripple - who knows) & I expect that's because your's is an orange flash? I think he has another 2 wives, or is he down to one now?

Don't stop posting. Even though I have been at this hobby just over a year, I don't think I'll ever feel knowledgable enough about the plants to contribute much in the way of comments, other than to admire what I like and try to learn from what I read. I also have no talent when it comes to scaping a tank - so wouldn't dare to suggest that you move this to right or that to the left.

Anyway, I think it's a nice record for yourself of the life of your tank. I hardly ever have responses in my logs - although I can always count on you LF for a visit and countryfish has also popped in lately (thanks guys). It's a good pictorial record of the tank. Although - a word of warning - a moderator in another forum has explained to me that if a thread has not received a reply for a period of time, then the premie pictures disappear. So, LF - another incentive to not stop posting if you want all your historical pictures to hang around on-line.

You don't have much of it, but I thought I noticed some black spot on the anubia leaves. I have the same & try scratching or rubbing, as someone suggested to me. Doesn't really seem to work. Do you have some trick to get rid of the black spots, by chance?

Cheers
TW
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Do you have some trick to get rid of the black spots, by chance?

Cut off the leaf

Actually, that is the only way that I know.

Thanks Robin for the encouraging words, as long as others look I will keep on posting, except if I don't have the tank anymore. Maybe Matty can shed some light on how long that period of no activity would have to be before Adam erases all the images. He does that to preserve server space though.

My Apisto is an Orange Flash, or Double Orange, which I think is the same (or maybe the flash would be a triple). He still has two females, but he hasn't been in a breeding mood in ages. He rather eats CO2 bubbles and Cherry Shrimp, his version of Champagne and Lobster, .

Ingo


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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Actually I was just informed of this when I recently replied erroneously to one of robyn's threads....see I do post in your threads robyn.

I was informed that it takes a few weeks or more to happen. I've found the most reliable way to keep images up on any site is to host them elsewhere and bring them in with the [img] tag. It would be rough going to redo all your previous pics (wouldn't recommend ), but it's a piece of cake to do it starting now.

Server space and whatnot is at a premium (pun intended?) because there aren't enough of us premies to cover costs. I need to get on tetratech about that.

Oh....just thought about the black spot. A tank full of cherry shrimp is a good tool IMO for slow growing plants. I removed my petite nana covered in green and black spot to the 5.5 and the leaves are literally pristine again. I highly recommend it.



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Post InfoPosted 29-May-2007 04:47Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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see I do post in your threads robyn
I know you do Matty and you've helped with some of my more technical questions eg. testing of filter flow rate etc. (I might come back to that question again soon.) You, tetratch, nowhereman & (in the early days at least) Bensaf have all been invaluable help to me.

Cherry's are hard to come by, but I have found a LFS who promises within 4 weeks he will have some stock. I'd love to get some and hope my fish don't eat them (Lobster without the Champagne). I guess you have to be more gentle with gravel vac too - hate to squash one of the shrimpsters during a vigorous clean.

Re the linking. Seems I remember visiting people's threads, where they have links that no longer work. Wouldn't that also be a problem with the links dropping out.
how long that period of no activity would have to be before Adam erases all the images
The moderator told me 2-4 weeks, but I know that my logs are often not updated for that period of time and the pics are still there. I have been thinking now I will not stop posting in my current logs, when I shut some tanks down & replace with new tanks. I'll just rename the logs to reflect the new tank size.

Cheers
TW
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If I am not mistaken then the "removal" of images is a manual process by Adam, right Matty?

The problem with linking to a separate host is that it adds more work to the Logger as I have to maintain a separate site with images. Once that gets out of hand then all is messed up. That even happened to Matty when he lost all his images for a brief period.

Uploading images to FP directly takes the burden of maintenance from the individual poster. I think it would be a smart move by the Site Admins to discriminate between what threads should be "cleaned" vs. which ones should be kept. Take my 125G log, for example. One one side, there is quite a bit of "Off-Topic" stuff included (may I remind you of the Brady Bunch phase), but on the other side there is a wealth of info, best explained with the attached images, that would be a great loss for the FP community if wiped out. Not to mention that it is probably the longest and best documented tank log out there (in the public world). Enough about me

Ingo


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Removal of images is an automatic process. In Robyn's case the thread had not been posted in for 6 months.

Re the linking. Seems I remember visiting people's threads, where they have links that no longer work. Wouldn't that also be a problem with the links dropping out.


This would only be because they removed the image off the host site themselves. You can still see the images on my reef tank log even though it's been inactive for over a month and the first images are from october 2005.

It's true there's that one time my images got messed up, and got me nervous, but all were back with no effort on my end in a day or so. That sort of thing doesn't happen often.

Myself, I don't feel too overwhelmed or anything keeping a photobucket site for my pics. It's really easy and since I don't live near any of my family, they appreciate being able to see pics of my tanks and other stuff too. You can click my www below to see all the good stuff there, even some pics from my recent vacation.



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Weekly Tank Update - Week 51

Not much happened to the tank this week, the female apisto has still not been seen, I am as such most certain that she is MIA.

Trimming this weekend was only performed on the Bolbitis, pretty much any new leaf that is coming is now of a size that causes it to grow out of the water. I would say that this is no longer working this way, but I am not certain if a major trim would do or if even then new leaves would be too big for this tank.

Here is a full shot of the tank:

Attached Image:

Full Tank



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As I haven't shown any shots from a different angle in quite a while, here is the tank from the main front looking downwards.

You can see in the open center gap the HC. As you may note, it sure gets a lot of light.

Attached Image:

Front Angled



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Ingo, sorry to hear about you Apisto female Are you planning to repace her ? Tank looks fantastic as usual .
Garry
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And here is the tank from the other front, also in an angle.

Visible is the male Apisto in the center front, and a cherry shrimp on the leftmost branch. Also, compared to earlier stages of this tank, this side has no ground cover anymore at all.

Attached Image:

Back Angled



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A shot for Matty and his newly aquired HC, here is mine. I don't think it ever was really shaded and since quite a while now has the 96w lighting straight above. So, what keeps it from exploding ?

Attached Image:

HC



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Last night, it was time to do the following:

As you can see, these are a set of new Amano shrimp for the tank, not because the others are no longer there but to increase the clean-up group.

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Amanos



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So, in addition to the existing 6 adult Amanos, I added these 8 juveniles. They (and about 22 more) have been in the QT for the last two weeks and sure cleaned up that tank (including snacking on the Najas indica .

That's it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

2 Amanos



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A shot for Matty and his newly aquired HC, here is mine. I don't think it ever was really shaded and since quite a while now has the 96w lighting straight above. So, what keeps it from exploding ?


My mistake then, I thought for sure that everything in the tank had been shaded before you pruned the java fern.



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I checked back when I got the HC, that was on Nov 15th last year. This means that I added it probably on the following weekend.

At that stage, the Bolbitis and the Narrow Leaf Fern were still way too small to create a shade. Once they became taller it may have been possible, but I think to remember that I always tried to keep the HC in full light, knowing that this (supposedly) is their single most important requitement for growth.

Ingo


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Here is a small piece of bad news, one of the newly added shrimp was found dead in the tank this morning. I first assumed that it was only a shell, but it was actually the whole animal.

Given that all others are fine (as much as I can tell, as I only see maybe 4 of them, but that is rather normal) I have to assume that I maybe injured it when fishing it out of the QT.

On to write some good news about the new shrimp in the 125G,

Ingo


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Well you for sure know your tank better than I, sir.

Sorry to hear about the shrimp. It happens to the best of us.



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Well you for sure know your tank better than I, sir.

Well I am glad it is that way . I raised the question just a few minutes ago in the NJAGC forum and so far what I have gotten back indicates a need for a better growth substrate (speak AquaSoil Amazonia) and more light (speak up to MH)

Not to helpful for my tank,

Ingo


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Well I am glad it is that way . I raised the question just a few minutes ago in the NJAGC forum


Does that mean you will be on APC more often? Well I plan on growing HC in my 46g with cf lighting and aquasoil. I hope the 96watt cf bulbs have enough to penetrate 18" and keep the HC low.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Does that mean you will be on APC more often?

Probably not, as I mentioned I posted at my local club, the NJAGC.

APC, for some reason, is not really what I am after. I find that people there are somewhat strange, to some degree arrogant, and it takes forever to get a constructive response.

Sure would I enter some contest or something along these lines, but some of the members over there should come down from their pedestal first.

I am sure that the hard core gang here seems to behave superior to others (newer) as well, but somehow it seems different to me, even when I try to put myself in the shoes of a newbie, as I have been like 2 years ago and found great support here.

Also, APC appears to me as having something of a politicalyl motivated reply structure, and I don't need that either, I have that every day at work.

So, for sure you gonna see me post there more often as soon as I am finished bashing them here

Ingo

EDIT: Oh - almost forgot - they don't seem to have a sense of humor either,


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EditedEdited by tetratech
APC, for some reason, is not really what I am after. I find that people there are somewhat strange, to some degree arrogant, and it takes forever to get a constructive response

Oops sorry I asked Well the two sites are completely different that's for sure. I don't even consider it the same hobby. This site of course is much more about fish or at most growing plants, while at APC it's more about using those fish and plants in an artistic expression of nature. I guess it depends what your looking for. I have grown to really like the APC website and the information sharing of so many very dedicated planted tank enthusiasts is really unparalled IMO.

Plus you don't have to be a paying member to show some pics.

EDIT: Doesn't your club have it's forum over at APC?

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... while at APC it's more about using those fish and plants in an artistic expression of nature ... I have grown to really like the APC website and the information sharing of so many very dedicated planted tank enthusiasts is really unparalled IMO.


OMG - they have brainwashed tetratech

I know that we have something like an "Announcement" and "Sales" section in the Planted Tank Forum (actually one of our guys is a Mod there), but I don't know about having our own block at APC, maybe I should ask or even better - go on the site and look for it. Without a doubt, quite a few of our members frequent APC and probably are well known there.

Ingo


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OMG - they have brainwashed tetratech



Isn't this your club's forum
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/new-jersey-aquatic-gardeners-club/



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I'ma go ahead and jump in on LFs side here. APC isn't for me.

And about paying......it's 1.50 a month. I'm sure that's a pittance for anyone living in or around NYC.

But back on track....MH for HC? Are we just talking about penetration....or actual intensity? Cause PCs penetrate just fine to the bottom of my relatively short tank. Hearing that made me plug back in the second 96w bulb on my 50g tank. I've still had it off since I left for vacation.



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Well, I guess it's good that there are all sorts of different sites, to suit the needs of various posters. I may have a bit of a sticky beak at the APC site, but it does sound like the expertise of the members will be above me. I have enough trouble keeping up & following you guys here . Don't get me wrong, I love my plants and need to keep learning about them. I love looking at all the beautiful planted tanks that all you guys create, but equally, I love Ingo's fish pictures and I love reading about the fish in the tank.

Even though this tank of Ingo's here is really about the plants, I like hearing about his resident drug addict & other occupants - more so that I do reading the random posts. I get to know Ingo's fish, just a bit, by his pics & his little bits of narrative about them.

I love my own fish too - particularly my apistos. When they have fry, I could sit & watch them for ages.

tetratech, I hope you don't vacate this site for good in favour of APC. You've helped a lot over the time of my membership & your input would be missed.

Cheers
TW
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I think tetratech appreciates the intensity with which the folks over there are working towards the higher goals of the hobby. I very often get the impression though that "lighten up guys" would be a proper reminder to all involved that this is just a hobby. Although, on the other hand, some of the guys there depend on this hobby as it is their business.

Anyway, to move on with other stuff:

Isn't this your club's forum --> yeah, indeed it is, I guess we are all over the place as well. So one can see the summary of our meetings at APC then. If you wish to see more details of our meetings then you should go to our site directly and look at the events section. There are quite a few ugly mug shots of me (and my balding head, LOL).

Matty - you may not remember this, or you may have never known this, but by now I have 96w plus 65w over the 40G, and even that in itself is not enough for the HC to explode. hey, in addition, I heard in my club forum that HC grows really fast, when EMERSED. Maybe it would be worthwhile culturing it emersed first until one has a large amount and then planting it in the tank, who cares how fast it grows then in the tank? The only thing that would be needed to be figured out is "what does it do during the acclimatization process?"

Ingo


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I think tetratech appreciates the intensity with which the folks over there are working towards the higher goals of the hobby. I very often get the impression though that "lighten up guys" would be a proper reminder to all involved that this is just a hobby. Although, on the other hand, some of the guys there depend on this hobby as it is their business.


I think that is is very accurate as well. But like most things in life, the population falls into a bell curve, where you have some extremists on one end who might appear as LF describes, but most are in the middle of the bell and don't have as much experience as you think.



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Ingo,

I don't know if I'd say AS would necessarily make your HC grow. The big thing IME is CO2 - lots of it. Without it there's no point even trying. I started out a 2.5G with a few clumps of HC and now the bottom is completely covered. For a while it was stagnant, then added co2 and it took off. Granted, it does seem to enjoy the AS, but I really think you can substitute "AS" with "enriched substrate of your choice"

As for APC, it's different than this place. There are lots of serious 'scapers over there and you can learn a ton just by reading what they write and looking at their scapes. The worst thing about APC IMO is that the more time I spend browsing over there, the more I feel the urge to buy ADA products I mean, lots of people there spend $$$ on custom rimless tanks, high tech lighting etc. I'll admit, it's easy to get envious of all that, and at least for me anyway, I start to think "it's so gorgeous, maybe I should look into that too..." Makes me lose sight of doing things my own way and finding my own way, which is part of the fun of the hobby in the first place

Nevertheless, I'll keep reading and lurking there because there's so much useful info to go around. I'm sure it's more fun posting there if you're talented enough to roll with the big boys, but I'm not quite comfortable with it yet.


Back in the saddle!
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 52

Well this weeks update is a little different, a series of 13 ( lucky number? ) shots, celebrating:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TANK

Yup, today a year ago I set up this tank, so without too much rambling, here is the first shot, taken right after the setup was completed. As you can see, only fast growers are in the tank:

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Week 0



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3 weeks later, the fast growers did what they do best, namely grow fast. By then the tank had seen some trimmings and the addition of Otos (all still there, btw).

Without a doubt, having only fast growers to begin the tank sure helped settle it A LOT!!!

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Week 3



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Of course, this fast grower business could not go on forever, so here is a shot from week 7 showing the first attempt to plant the tank more permanent. Look at this lovely lawn of Micro Swords , the barteri that eventually outgrew even the 125G , and the small group of Nanas and Narrow Leaf Java Fern.

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Week 7



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By week 11, the barteri had been replaced with the Bolbitis fern that is still in the tank today. I cannot even remember this plant ever being this small, kinda glad I made all these pictures just because of that.

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Week 11



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By week 14 became fed up with the untidy and boooooring Micro Swords. I started to add more Blyxa and emptying out other areas to leave them open in the future. Also, a second order of Nanas came in, overall I think there were over 20 of them.

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Week 14



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By week 20, pretty much all Micro Swords were out, some fast growers were added (hygro on tank left, for example) simply to keep the tank stable. As one may notice, the Bolbitis hasn't done much at this stage so far, it sure needs its time to settle.

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Week 20



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By week 24, the Bolbitis finally started to show some significant growth. The Narrow Leaf Java Fern on the right hill also started to kick into gear, it has received Needle Leaf Java Fern from the 125G in its center to make it appear fuller as well.

The fast growers in support a few weeks earlier had been removed again.

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Week 24



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Week 27 saw a continuation of that growth on both hills.

Actually, I forgot to mention that already in the last shot the newly added HC is visible in the opening of between the hills.

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Week 27



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By week 33, both planted hills have reached a height and fullness that makes it hard to take pictures of the tank that show all areas in full light, shading of the opening between the hills became a small problem. In real life, the areas did get quite some light, it just didn't show that well in pictures anymore.

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Week 33



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Week 38 shows the problems mentioned in the last post even more clearly, I find the Java Fern hill in particular looks like a lettuce head

No plants on both hills though have yet caused a problem on the surface of the tank.

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Week 38



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By week 42, the lighting on the tank had changed. In addition to the 96w PC, now being moved all the way to the front of the tank, a 65w PC that had been over the 20G had been added for the back of the tank.

The Bolbitis started to pierce the surface of the tank.

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Week 42



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By week 47, I had enough of the Blyxa, somehow I could not manage to keep it down (I know people with the same problems ) and the light addition made it look funky over time as well. So, all had to go.

In addition, and even more obvious, the Fern on the right hill got a major trim, acutally it caused the entire right hill to require a major redo, with sticks and everything.

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Week 47



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And finally, here is the tank from last night, week 52, not a very good shot for its birthday.

Overall, it has been a nice year with this tank, not one major crisis was there because of algae or something like that, except for the one day where the CO2 went crazy.

But, I think it has reached a point where it cannot be maintained easily much longer . The Bolbitis is simply too big for it now and something will have to happen to change that, meaning at least a major redo of the left hill. On the other hand, next years update would then look almost like a repetition of this year's, showing the bolbitis and fern grow tall again. How boring would that be?

Well, enough for now,

Have fun, and I hope you liked the review,

Ingo

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Week 52 - Now



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Ingo , loved the review , the photo story makes it very easy to follow the development of the plants . I'll be very interested with what you do with the left side hill . btw there is nothing boring about you logs , the photos and commentry are always first class . Happy Birthday for the tank . I look forward to reading for another year
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Ingo,

Looks so much better know with the Bolbitus dominating. Ideally if the left were alittle more centered, but it's good.

If I can be so bold, this tank could easily be made into one where the substrate in the front and middle is changed to sand. It would have great contrast with the dark wood. You could build up more rock along the inner and front edge of both islands holding back the eco and then simply siphon out the eco from the front and middle with a hose. If the eco hold you can than fill with sand, if not adjust the rocks some more. This would give you a makeover without totally making over the tank. Sort of what I did for my 72g.

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Just wanted to comment on the HC again. It looked like it was in full light at week 27, then started to get shaded out until your recent trimmings. This is just what I see in the pics, but the HC seemed to grow for you for a few weeks, then die back as it got shaded. Could just be the magic of time lapse though.

Neat summary LF. I think my 50's B-day is coming up. Its summary wouldn't be as interesting as yours though.



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I think my 50's B-day is coming up.

Wow Matty, I had no idea that you are already that old

Anyway, thanks guys for the input

Garry - It is not so much that I find my logs boring (although I would stop them if people stop caring about my ramblings), it is more that a tank that only needs trimming to continue to look the same is boring to me. I have a limited space available for tanks, and as such I increase my number of tanks by redoing them. In this faulty math, I already had at least 10 tanks, if not way more.

tetratech - I think the big challenge when trying to implement your suggestions (and believe me, I like them and I have thought about such changes as well) is the middle section of the tank. It is not "stoned" up at all, Anubias are planted in the Eco, it is hard to access without having the hills collapse, and so forth.

Matty - granted, the area of the HC has not received the high light that it gets since the last trimming, but the images are misleading. This is a trick that the camera plays on you. In order to avoid enormous overexposure of the areas on top the camera made all other areas look really dark, much darker than in real life. BTW, we happen to have an HC expert at our NJAGC, I think you may have seen his time lapse video of HC growing for 6 days. His take on successful growth is a) light and b) Excel (not CO2). I find that interesting.

Ingo


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tetratech - I think the big challenge when trying to implement your suggestions (and believe me, I like them and I have thought about such changes as well) is the middle section of the tank. It is not "stoned" up at all, Anubias are planted in the Eco, it is hard to access without having the hills collapse, and so forth.


You can do it! You just have to get big rocks and...

Place rock, push, siphon, place rock, push, siphon.

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Weekly Tank Updates - Week 53

Well, the tank had been pretty much neglected this week, all concerns where on the tannins in the 125G (read that log for details) and eventually this tank got involved in that issue (more later).

Here is a full tank shot:

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Week 53



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As you can see, there are a few new plants in this tank, they are the cubans that I am making a last ditch rescue effort for by planting the tops in the bright light areas. This angle reveals that there are a few tiny ones in dead center of the tank as well.

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Angled



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As the cubans are in bad shape, I don't really expect them to take off here, it is rather a wishful thinking thing. As soon as I added them into the tank, as in having them float until I was done with the 125G maintenance, the Amanos were all over them, not a sign of a healthy plant. Here are two Amanos on the floating stems:

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Floaters being eaten



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The same continued one the plants were planted, here are more Amanos muching away.

Hey - doesn't it remind you of bees collecting honey from flowers?

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Amanos Eating Cubans



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH


SEE PREVIOUS PAGE FOR FULL TANK AND HOW THE CUBANS GOT HERE

Here is a closer look at the Cuban line-up on the right tank side. All stems are really short now, I tried to trim off as much old growth as possible. The tallest stem is maybe 4 inches.


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Cubans Lined Up



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Here is another look at the cubans (with an unfocussed Amano on top of one of them) and the HC, taken straight from above. Under non-maintenance conditions this shot is not possible as the light is sitting right up there.

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Top Shot



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The HC has grown a little this week, at least that is what I tell myself

Here is a slightly-out-of-focus shot showing it from the side of the tank. You can see the little green dots coming up here and there, I assume there is an underground connection between the groups.

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HC



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And with all this Amano here and Amano there, I still have some Cherries, or at least one. Actually, once this week I saw two at once.

Here is one on the Bolbitis:

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Cherry



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Speaking of Bolbitis:

That plant is becoming a problem. Its new growth is waaay to large for this tank, the individal leaves on the stems don't even start to open up within the water column. This weekend I had to trim off 5 strong stems that were pushing against the top glass. Open top is not an option these days though, I would damage the light (help may be coming soon though).


Here is a stem that grew out of the small open area that I have there for feeding fish and adding ferts during the week.

And that is it for now,

Have fun, thanks for watching,

Ingo

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Bolbitis on the Run



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Tanks looks very nice, despite the issues with the Cubans.

Open top is not an option these days though, I would damage the light (help may be coming soon though).
In terms of what, a new light? BTW I plan on running my 46g with the 192watt coralife without a glass top. I don't think it will be a problem if it's raised up on the mounting legs.

P.S. Happy Father's Day

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Your non-glass top thing may work, or it may not . One thing seems certain though, without a top you will have quite a bit of evaporation. The 40G managed to evaporate about 2 inches (depending on surrounding humidity in the air) within 7 days, to the point where the spray bar was almost exposed. I have a shot of my setup from a while back on page 4 in this log, you can see the small glass plate that I had under the light unit. In the morning, that glass was full of drops (under side, of course).

Anyway, yeah, I am thinking of a new light, but not before the end of August, maybe.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
Your non-glass top thing may work, or it may not . One thing seems certain though, without a top you will have quite a bit of evaporation. The 40G managed to evaporate about 2 inches (depending on surrounding humidity in the air) within 7 days, to the point where the spray bar was almost exposed. I have a shot of my setup from a while back on page 4 in this log, you can see the small glass plate that I had under the light unit. In the morning, that glass was full of drops (under side, of course).


Well you just made me think of an advantage other than looks for the lily pipe. The large size of the funnel allows it to be way under the water line. The water returns back to the tank through the bottom part of the funnel. Since the co2 can be located below the funnel it sprays the co2 throughout the tank and their is little surface break caused by the funnel. In other words it would take alot of evaporation, before the funnel bottom was exposed. Of course if you want to raise the funnel higher to remove surface scum that can be done as well.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Yeah,

The high tech guy in our club adjusted the pipe return level when he had a crisis once, that's how I know that this is a feature,

Can't wait to see that log, I just hope that you don't let us hang until all is already established

Ingo

Oh yeah, Happy Father's Day to you as well. Turns out to be more of a Children's day as I could not resist and gave mine a Nintendo DS. Now I have to read all the in-game instructions for them

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
Can't wait to see that log, I just hope that you don't let us hang until all is already established

I guess I'll have to decide what I'm gonna do. Got the rep and all now

The high tech guy in our club adjusted the pipe return level when he had a crisis once, that's how I know that this is a feature

What was the crisis?

Oh yeah, Happy Father's Day to you as well. Turns out to be more of a Children's day as I could not resist and gave mine a Nintendo DS. Now I have to read all the in-game instructions for them

Yeah I spent my Father's Day mowing the lawn doing alittle emersed scaping and taking my kid to soccer training. I feel for you with the DS, you mean your kids don't want a Wii got up for in the morning last December to wait in line and get a Wii for them.

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