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SubscribeLITTLE_FISH 40G Breeder Log
LITTLE_FISH
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you went 100% LF style and messed with the whole tank?
- Well, I can't deny who I am

Yes, I did change everything, except for the substrate and the basic position of the rocks, although they have been elevated a bit to stand out some more.

Right now, I have a load of Wisteria floating in the 20G and even more Hyrgo in the 125G, I didn't have the time to do anything with it, and I didn't want to throw it out either.

Ingo


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LITTLE_FISH
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Ok,

So here comes the visual change progress in 16 Acts (brace yourself).

After I came home on Thursday, I grabbed the package and began to unpack. The first one to be unloaded was the Barteri mother plant. Unfortunately, 3 small pieces broke off during shipping. That in itself would not have been all that bad, if it wouldn't be for the fact that all 3 are the growing ends of longer rhizomes of the mother. I am not certain if these 3 rhizomes will ever create new shoots, we will see.

Attached Image:

Mother Anubias Barteri



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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 13:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Next, I unpacked the Lilaeopsis novae-zelandiae, Nana, and the Java Fern.

As you can see, the fern is rather small and the Anubias Nana is as expected, with about 5 leaves on each of the 10 plants. The Lilaeopsis came in a matt of one square foot, with roots and what not all being a big solid group.

Attached Image:

Nana, Fern, and Lilaeopsis



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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 13:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a close-up of the Lilaeopsis matt. As I mentioned a few posts back, after I finished adding all plants to the tank I discovered that small red worms, like tubifex, were in the bucket. I have to assume that I have some of them now in the tank.

Reason to worry? What do you think?

Attached Image:

Lilaeopsis Close-Up



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LITTLE_FISH
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After the unpacking came the boring and unpleasant task of cleaning the plants. In particular the Mother Barteri was a pain in the neck, all the roots were in this growing sponge stuff. I tried to get off as much as I could, but I am certain that some of it remained on the plant.

Here are the plants after some cleaning, ready for the planting process:

Attached Image:

Post Cleaning



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LITTLE_FISH
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Then it was time to start messing with the tank, as Wings calls it: 100% LF style .

Before I got started I took one last shot of the tank with the warm-up plants still in place:

Attached Image:

Last Old Picture



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LITTLE_FISH
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First I removed all the tall plants, the Star Grass was thrown out and the Hygro was placed in a bucket for replant in maybe this tank or another. In the end, there was no space left for it in this tank and it was so late at night that I just added it to the 125G as a floater, and that is where it still is as I am writing this.

Attached Image:

Stems are Removed



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LITTLE_FISH
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A scary part of this removal process was the thought that an Oto may decide to hide by clinging to a leaf and I would ultimately throw it away, but it didn't happen. Nevertheless, it means that each plant removed had to be carfully observed before being discarded off.

Next, I removed the Wisteria and the only plants left in the tank are the 3 Blyxas.

Attached Image:

All Plants Gone - Except Blyxa



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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 13:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Then I removed all the wood from the tank. I used this chance to rinse it off a little as it still had some fungus growing on it.

At this stage, finding the Otos was an easy task, with almost nothing left in the tank for them to hide. And I am glad to report that all 6 original Otos are still around.

Attached Image:

Almost Empty Tank



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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 13:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Next I performed a 30% water change, partially to remove some floating debris from the water column, partially to vacuum some gunk of the substrate. This was important as I had to do some minor rescaping of the substrate, like raising the rocks a little and reshapng the hills. Without the water change I would have made a major mess of the water column.

During all this time, the Otos were eating on any object that was left in the tank, at this stage pretty much only the glass in itself was there.

Attached Image:

Otos Hanging In



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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 13:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Next, I repositioned the filter intake, heater, diffuser, and spray bar. The spray bar is now horizontally on the right of the tank, I have not been too happy about the enormous lack of surface movement in the old setup.

Then, all wood had been placed in the tank again to get a vision on how it would look. Here I had to really focus as I then went on to remove the entire right group again, but had to keep in mind where I would like to place the plants on the wood. After quite some time, the right group had 10 Nana and the 3 Ferns tied to it:

Attached Image:

Right Hill Replanted



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LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a close-up that is of better lighting and a slightly different angle. As you may notice, not all Nanas are tied to the wood, some are tied to a rock in front of it.

The Fern isn't tied too high on the rocks as I expect it to grow higher by itself.

Attached Image:

Right Group Close Up



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LITTLE_FISH
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Then I had to make a decision.

Obviously, I ran out of Nanas to plant and the left group contains a large area of wood in its center that eliminated the option to plant anything in the substrate there. So, I decided to, at least for now, add that mother Barteri to that section.

What do you think?

Attached Image:

Left Group With Mother Barteri



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LITTLE_FISH
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In the meantime, the Otos were happy that the wood was back in and insantly started to munch away on it. Occasionally they still came to the glass though and gave me a chance to count them, as I was still worried that I may have squeezed them under some added wood.

Attached Image:

Otos Hanging In



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LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
The tank at this stage actually does not look all that bad, maybe I should have just kept it that way. The problem would have been the rather small plant mass, with lots of light and CO2, and that would have been asking for trouble.

So, on I went to plant the Lilaeopsis novae-zelandiae, WHAT A PAIN

I had to divide the matt into smaller chunks, and then take these chunks into even smaller plugs that can be planted. Overall, I would estimate that I created anywhere between 70 and 100 of these plugs, although it felt like I made about 1000. It took forever. Planting these plugs though was not all that hard, thanks to the ease with which Eco lets you add plants.

After that planting the tank was complete:

Attached Image:

All Panted



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LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a closer look at the center area of the tank with the Lilaeopsis novae-zelandiae and the 3 remaining Blyxa in place. It is a very nice plant, altough I have to confess that I know little about its growth pattern, speed, and anything for that matter. Any info is welcome:

Attached Image:

Center Area of Tank



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LITTLE_FISH
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And last but not least, another full tank shot from last evening, about 19 hours after the setup was completed.

I seem to identify that the Lilaeopsis novae-zelandiae leaves have uprighted themselves to some degree, at least in the picture they seem a little more pointed upwards than in the previous shot.

And that is that, all done for now.

What do you think? Any input? Anything you can see that I messed up? Anything?

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

One Day Later



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tetratech
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I'm thinking.......

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slickrb
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EditedEdited by slickrb
Ingo,

I like the way the tank looks now but you now have me throughly confused.

I though that the point of starting the tank out full of fast growers, was because they grow quickly and get established quickly creating a large plant biomass to out compete the algae spores that are always present in air and water.

Ok, jump to this week when you take out all the fast growers and replace them with some slower growing plants.

This is what confuses me. What was the point of the stem plants?

At this point you have basically done a reset of the tank. The algae spores are still present, but instead of a large fast growing established biomass, you have a smaller, non established slow growing biomass. What is stopping the algae from getting establishing now?

My thought would be to remove a section of the stems and plant some of the Anubuias and the Lilaeopsis. Then a couple weeks later do some more, etc. This way you never have a situation where you have no established plants.

Anyway I not trying to be critical, just trying to learn. It does look very nice.

Rick
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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 15:25Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Anyway I not trying to be critical, just trying to learn.
Hey Rick, I hear you - I am trying to learn myself.

Initially, the idea was to remove only part of the fast growers and plant that section with new, more permanent plants. Over the course of a few weeks or a month or two, the whole tank would have been changed.

That would have been ideally what I wanted to do, but there were some logistical problems:

- If I order all plants at once, what do I do with the remaing plants? My other tanks can only house an additional plant load if I a) either replant each tank to accomondate for the extra load or b) have them float in there and risk a die-off from the shading over weeks.

- If I order them over weeks on a buy-what-you-need-now basis, then a) can I be guaranteed that the plants are available when needed, b) do they sell small masses of the individual plants (no problem on the Anubias, but a no-no on the Lilaeopsis, which comes as half this size as the minimum quantity), and c) I would have to pay a fortune in shipping for small packages that have to be overnighted.

- The addition of the fast growers was not for nothing, at least not in my opinion (and I may be wrong). Water from the tab has nothing to do with tank water in an established tank, loads of natural goodies, like beneficial bacteria etc., are missing, and the tank's filter is "clean". Riding the tank in with fast growers creates a plant friendly environment that will help to keep algae at bay. I hope to have converted the tank into such an environment where new plants still will have an advantage over algae. Plus, the fact that I have the light on for only 8.5 hours per day should help as well.

- As Wings put it nicely, I did a replant LF Style, just check all my other logs if you don't know what that means. For better or worse, most likely worse, my way of doing these things is by removing pretty much all content from the tank and then start to replant. I simply seem to be incapable to remove only parts and not influence the other parts. For me, it is all a chain reaction, a move on one subject causes another having to change, and so forth. I hope this explanation makes sense to you.

Thanks for the comment on the current look

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 15:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Looks really nice Ingo.

Everything looks nice and I like the Lilaeopsis & will have to look it up. Knowing my luck, though, it needs high light I bet.

Cheers
TW
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LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Robyn,

Yeah, I think the Lilaeopsis needs hight light to thrive, although I have to confess that I did one of these "oh - how pretty, I need to have it and will research the details later" kind of purchases. Ususally, that style comes back to haunt you later

Rick - one more thing: I think that I have a rather large plant mass in there right now, with this plant being so dense and all parts exposed to the light (rather than the shaded bottoms of the Star Grass that always wither away, or the rather bare stems of the Hygro that carry only a few leaves each).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 16:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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My first reaction is "Sod"
You certainly have an instant lawn and in itself the tank looks nice, but I'm alittle confused about what your trying to accomplish.

Weren't you trying to do two mounds with rock work, etc. The microswords although a foreground plant are very tall and is hiding any kind of hardscape that the plants play off of. The blyxa is really wasted in that spot since it's color and shape is very similiar to the microsword.
Are you planing to reduce the microsword population or do you want a full lawn? I thought you were doing a beachfront in this tank or was that another tank in your "Fishroom"

Don't get me wrong the tank is pleasing to the eye, but I'm not sure what the goal is?



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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 16:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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I'm not sure that I like how the lilaeopsis is basically all one level and flat across the tank. It doesn't do much for creating depth, it looks especially flat knowing that this is such a deep tank front to back. I say you either need to do more with the gravel to produce depth or find some taller grasses to mix in with the one you have now.

That said, I do like the plant choices, and you probably already have a plan for creating some interest in the grassy area that I don't know about. It does look nice for doing a 100% change in one day, and will continue to look better, I'm sure.

The barteri will form new shoots from any cutting. I've chopped a nana into about 6 peices before and watched all of them sprout in new directions. It actually seems to encourage branching, like in stem plants.



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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 16:19Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Gee,

Everyone is a critic

Folks, I worked my lower back off to get this together and you tell me its just another failure?

Ok - the entries by tetratech and Matty:

The beachfront idea was pretty much scrapped when Bensaf mentioned that black substrate doesn't lean itself to a distinct beach appearance and I was unwilling to add another lighter substrate.

I am aware that the Blyxa doesn't stick out, but maybe it will when it grows taller (although color is pretty much the same but may turn more reddish, I hope).

The rocks were never intended to be a focal point of the hardscape, their main purpose is to keep the hills together. And I agree, one cannot see much of hills anymore anyway, that was a design/planning flaw. The hardscape focus is the wood, and unfortunately that doesn't come out in the pictures that well. I am plannning to add a white background that is removable to add just for the pictures so you get a better idea on how the tank looks like when you actually stand in front of it.

Overall, I gave up on the idea on having a detailed vision before I redo one of my tanks and then follow through with that vision at any cost. I rather prefer right now to have some idea and then go with the flow, creating what comes natural during that process. Why - because I am not experienced enough to lay out a clear and suitable vision that actually resembles an implementation without having it in front of me.

Yes, one of the visions was to add some taller plants spread out on the plain to create some highlights, but they are secondary implementations not important for the mass of plants. I may add some red Wendtii or other accent plant much later in the progress, we will see. Crypts or such plants seemed at this time to only have increased the slow growing group and to cause a decrease in water quality because of the almost given melting.

I chopped my Nanas and Barteris in the large tank as well, although only into two pieces each. Thanks for the thums up on the regrowth.

And overall - the goal is to enjoy the ride . So far, all of my tanks have seen overhauls and I srongly believe that I will never be finished with any of them. As I said, I can see that the Barteri Mother will have to go again, then I can mess with that wood area some more. Assuming I plant similar plants than on the other wood group, I will need about 15 to 20 more Anubias to do so.

So, now I would like to hear some more positive feedback, if you don't mind

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 16:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Hey I made sure to throw some positives into my post, I don't even like being critical of other people's work, especially when it looks pretty good. I like the anubias on the wood, you were going to change this? or were you going to just add more anubias? I do think some color would be nice, we get "bronze" wendtii at the store, and it seems to stay more compact than the red does. That was the plant in the front left of my old tank. I always like that one and wished I had made a better place for it.



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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 17:13Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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The beachfront idea was pretty much scrapped when Bensaf mentioned that black substrate doesn't lean itself to a distinct beach appearance and I was unwilling to add another lighter substrate.


I really don't buy that and I must disagree with my master about the darkside
There are some pretty distinictive beachfronts in nature. Let's see Hawaii and Tahiti come to mind.

It's really about contrast. If the rocks separating the plants from the substrate have a good constrast it really doesn't matter whether the sand is white, black or Bermuda pink.

Why not have a few rocks sticking out of your microsword field and plant the Blyxa in-between them. You need some areas of constrast and depth.



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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 17:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Hey, I really don't mind critics, they are what keeps us going. I think it would be more of a concern if a tank is changes and all that comes back is "looks nice".

Well, I didn't think about far away beaches when looking at a black beachfront, I looked at tetratech's tank . Although it didn't look bad at all, it didn't stick our either. Also, keep in mind that in order to have a beach I probably should have made it all around, with being a tank in the open from all sides.

Matty - The Barteri on the left is simply too big and starts to high up. You should see it from the other side of the tank (will post a picture maybe tomorrow), you can see the huge root mass elevated above the grass plant, it is almost ugly. Also, given good ferts, CO2, and light,the stems of the Barteri will grow so long that the plant will push out of the water. I think I will have to remove it.

tetratech - good idea on the rocks sticking out, I still have some of them available. First though I will try to get this load established before breaking it up again.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 17:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
BTW - When Bensaf mentioned the black sand beach wasn't distintive did you confirm he was sober

As far as the beach to each his own. I have both white an black sand beaches and they both work IMHO. The 72g has riccia and petrified wood that both constrast nicely with the eco and the 12g has javamoss meeting the white sand which again is a nice constrast.



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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 17:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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The 72g has riccia and petrified wood that both constrast nicely with the eco and the 12g has javamoss meeting the white sand which again is a nice constrast.
Exactly tetratech - and I have neither nor. I envisioned your 72G and deducted the beautiful border to the beach. Which is what my tank would not have, a border, otherwise there would not really have been any space left, considering the all around beach. Border would have met border from the other side with maybe a small strip of "land" in between. That is why the black in itself would not have been such a great idea for me. You know what I mean?

I didn't check if he was sober, and I don't know in what state of mind he has his best ideas either

Ingo


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tetratech
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I see pretty good constrast with your rocks and the eco. If those were bordering the islands separating the eco fromt the plants with a center area of all eco it would be fine in my hubble opinion.



Attached Image:

Good Contrast


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Post InfoPosted 15-Jul-2006 18:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Ok,

So - with the old saying pictures are better than words, here are a few (12) details of the tank.

First off the more ugly side of the Mother Barteri, with loads of roots really visible in the tank. That part is hard to cover up, attempts to do so seemed forced:

Attached Image:

Barteri Roots



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Next up,

A detail of one of the Ferns attached to the driftwood. As you can see, they are still small. I hope that when they grow they will give the right group some additional height.

Attached Image:

Narrow Leaf Java Fern I



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Here is another Fern shot, from a differnt group. You can even see the black thread with which the fern is attached to the Wood.

The little white spots are there because I just added some Equilibrium to the tank.

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Narrow Leaf Java Fern II



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Tetratech - you referred to the rocks. Well - they are still there, and some of them are quite visible in the tank.

If I am not mistaken then this is exactly the one you were showing. No plants in front of it, still in the open.

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Rocks I



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All rocks have been elevated a little to stick out some more than before. Here is another unhidden one, shot from the left end of the tank.

I agree that this one may dissapear over time, but I can always remove some plant mass to re-show it.

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Rocks II



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All good things come in 3

So here is the rock group that is visible from the backside of the tank, just below the Barteri.

Oh, BTW, the wood that the Barteri sits on forms a wondeful cave below it, you may be able to see that in the picture. I am thinking Apistos

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Rocks III



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Here is a shot from the right side of the tank, the one where all the equipment is coming in. I have the wood sticking out almost to the glass. This will serve as a natural divider for the grassy plant as well and give it some variety.

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Right Side



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And here it is from the left side. Nothing special to see here, maybe even a bit boring.

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Left Side



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An added bonus of this order was that the Micro Swords were covered in Duck Weed, the plant that I managed to kill (or have all eaten up) in the 125G. I will transfer some of it over there tomorrow to start a new culture.

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Duck Weed



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Here is a detail from the back view, with a little less light, that shows you that the plants are all slightly different, unlike Hair Grass where one sprout looks just like the next. Or at least that is what I can see.

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Close-Up



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Here is a full view of the backside of the tank, with the see-through option into the 125G.

Rocks and even some wood that is placed on the ground (big piece, going all the way through the right Barteri group, serving as the base for that plant) are showing through, although the wood also may dissapear over time.

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Full Back View



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And lastly, although I cannot take any credit for it, a shot of a Barteri flower. I find it a good sign if the Anubias that is coming in already has a flower, makes me more certain that it will have additional ones in the future.

That is it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

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Barteri Flower



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Weekly Tank Update - Week 5

As has been well documented during the last 2 pages, this week has seen a major change in the tanks plant selection. Albeit the results concluded in mixed reactions, at best, I like the new look and will keep on modifying it as time goes on, but first I will let it settle to see how the plants will grow. The one plant that is more likely than not to be removed soon is the Mother Barteri, it is just too big for this tank and its positioning doesn't help the cause either. In its place should go about 15 to 20 Nanas.

I will spare you from an army of additional pictures, you have seen it all in the last few pages.

Here is a front shot from today,

Have fun,

Ingo

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Week 5 - Full Shot



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Well,

Here is one close-up of a change that I just performed. As the CO2 hose came off yet again, by now an almost daily thing, I changed the suction cup and holder. I used a true airline sucktion cup and placed its holder directly at the end piece of the tube, where it is shoved over the diffuser. I was a little worried that I may break the glass, but I was fed up enought to do it anyway.

Ingo

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New Diffuser Holder Position



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tetratech
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I probably missed this somewhere, but why didn't you put the mother barteri on the right DW which is a lower position and the nana on the left (or is that just an illusion)

Well it sounds like we are having the same problem with the tubing. I've done what you are doing now and it still came off or it doesn't necessarily come off but the co2 escapes at the union of tubing and glass and never makes it to the diffusor. I guess I'll try Nowher's suggestion of heat or go back to Lee's Stealth Black Tubing. I never had the issue with that tubing but it wasn't co2 quality so I went to the greenish and blueish silicone type tubing.
I've noticed an increase in BBA due to the fluctating co2 levels because of this.



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Post InfoPosted 17-Jul-2006 02:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The rocks have disappeared again ! I understand you want to highlight the wood, but the rocks will only help with that. Especially now.

What's happened now is that there is alawn creating a flat horizon and the wood appears to be sitting on that.

Some rocks or other plants emerging from the lawn will break up that flat horizon.

The Blyxa is in the wrong place, but then it always was. Blyxa is a plant that cries out to be placed in front of wood or rock to highlight the colors. Having it alone at the front was always a waste, more so now has it's simply disappeared.

Shame the Fern was so small. it will change things once it grows in.

Don't be down hearted. It's a very nice tank , just a few little tweaks and it will be even better.




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Post InfoPosted 17-Jul-2006 04:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The black sand can work in some cases. It can work with petrified wood as the wood is a brighter color.

In the tank the ADA old dark wood would simply disappear and fade into the black sand. IMHO. This is not to say I was or was not sober then.....or now

Bear that in mind now. Some the branches resting on the substrate will look real good cutting into the lawn. The dark wood against the bright green. Everybody wins


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Don't be down hearted. It's a very nice tank , just a few little tweaks and it will be even better.




Well, for sure the tank will receive some tweaking, that was in the plan all along. The Barteri (on the left) sits much higher up than the Nanas (on the right) as the long piece of wood (that stretches out over the substrate towards the mid back of the tank) is rather high, with the cave below it and all. The Blyxa may move at some point, right now it is in its current spot because it was one of the few that got some ground light when in the growout phase and I would like it to develop some roots first (darn floater).

Ingo


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LF,

I have been kind of peeking in here every now and then to see what has been going on and trying to come up with something to say about your tank. Right now here are my feelings about it.

Things are gone in the jungle of plants once again as others have already stated. Adding in taller rocks would be nice to get them above the grass. I am not so sure I like the Anubias with your wood. Personaly I think it is too much wideness of leaves which takes away from your very nice branches of DW. Just my two cents. Feel free to stop by my log and beat up on my tank too!

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Post InfoPosted 18-Jul-2006 14:22Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Ingo,

My two cents: I think you're right about the mother barteri, the leaves are too big for this tank and it throws off the perspective. A large plant like this works wonderfully in keithg's 90 gallon tank, but for a low 40 breeder it's too much. A big mass of java ferns may look good in its place.

See, part of the challange of this tank is that it's viewable from all sides, meaning you can't just build up stem plants in the back to highlight the dark wood and show it off. I think it may help do do what Bensaf suggested in my little 4 gallon, tie some moss, java or otherwise, onto that long branch sticking out, that way there'll be some contrast. Maybe some christmas moss, since it'll hang down more than I think java would.

In understand what bensaf is saying about the rocks, but honestly I think it works fine without them, or I should say, it works very well with just wood. Your original layout vision is great, it's just a matter of bring it to life. It's just a matter of creating more "movement" with the substrate level, right now it does look a little flat. I feel like in your original vision you had a deeper valley in mind...


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Post InfoPosted 18-Jul-2006 15:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 6

As you all know, if you follow my 125G log, this week had a 2 day power outage. Plants seemed to have survived ok, I see some dying micro swords and a few Anubias leaves came off. I don't know if the latter is based on the lack of light or shipping and handling, but at least one rhizome seems to be melting.

Here is the tank before the Water Change

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Before Water Change



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Some bad stuff happened during the water change, the entire wood group on the right fell apart. After loads of cursing and a few attempts, I finally managed to create a new one that seems to be a little more stable.

I know it is not the prettiest, but I am too busy overall to care.

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After Water Change



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Here is a look at that new grouping from the other side of the tank. I know, no sign of a hill and what not, also the overwhelming amount of micro swords and what not, but that is what it is for now.

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Back View



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Post InfoPosted 23-Jul-2006 13:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Seems like you came through in this tank ok. You don't mention the otos, but I assume they made it (or you would have mentioned it).

Hope things settle at work.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 23-Jul-2006 13:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Robyn,

Yes, all Otos are accounted for, even after my wood structure fell apart

There seems to be some signs of damage to the Anubias, one Nana is on its way out and certain areas (in the region where there was some damage done during transport) of the Barteri are turning brown as well

And the micro sword is not yet sending out any runners, hopefully it will settle soon. I could see this plant as a nice ground cover in the 125G, maybe I will move it there as all of you don't think it fits in this tank anyway .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 24-Jul-2006 00:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,

Sending out runners? Where are they going to go? It looks like your tank is chopped full! Could you take a top down picture for us?

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Post InfoPosted 24-Jul-2006 01:56Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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maybe I will move it there as all of you don't think it fits in this tank anyway .

I actually think it looks good, I just reacted with surprise because it isn't what I thought you were going to do. As Wings stated the Microsword is planted heavily and it will probably need to be thinned out in short order.
What I think would look nice in the tank if you could somehow get those two hills to stay up higher so the rocks show more (maybe bigger rocks) and then have the microsword come down the hill with a rock here and there.

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Post InfoPosted 24-Jul-2006 04:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Sounds good tetratech, I am sure there will be plenty more changes to come before we will be all happy with it (and I am not happy, but by far not as unhappy as I am with the 125G).

There are actually quite some gaps between the plugs of micro swords that can be filled up with runners. I think this plant would make a great carpet in the big tank, but of course it may not grow there, given that it likes finer grained substrate.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jul-2006 01:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Ok gang,

If you follow my 125G log then you know that I traded some of my Espei in at the LFS for store credit. And of course, a credit is worth nothing if you don't buy anything for it.

So I did

I announced it a while ago, and now I would like to introduce you to Mr. and Mrs. Apistogramma cacatuoides "Triple-Red".

Here is a picture of the female in the bag in the 20G QT.

Attached Image:

Female cacatuoides



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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 02:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And here is a picture of the male, also in the bag. I had to pay a little extra to get them, but they are supposedly easy Apistos to have, don't give you too much trouble, and on top of it are nice to look at.

The 40G with the natural cave created by the driftwood on the left will house them well

I don't have any additional shots yet, as I am still acclimating them and the lights in the tank are off already. Once again, they are first going into the QT.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male cacatuoides



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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 02:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Very nice, Ingo. It's funny I was in the LFS the other day and I had my trigger on the finger and was going to purchase a pair of those and I simply don't have anywhere to put them. I would have to get rid of some fish to accomodate them. Part of me would like to house them in my 12g with about 5 or 6 CRS, but I have that nice school of gold tetras.



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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 02:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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LF - did you get them from AF? If you did then you shouldn't have a problem breeding them - last week I witnessed some obvious mating-type behavior by those two...


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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 03:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
They look really nice Ingo. I hope you enjoy them.

Now we can compare cacatuoides notes. Yours are very similar looking to mine. Your female looks bigger than mine, but that may just be the shot. My male is easily twice my female's size. Your male is very similar to mine, except that the black & red pattern shown on the rear of your male's tail, is strongly repeated on my male's anal fin as well. Also my male's dorsal fin is red all the way through - nothing there that is not either red or black (no clear). My male's tail is divided into 2 colour patterns. Close to his body the tail is strongly patterned red/black & as it reaches the 2nd half of his tail it is strongly yellow/black. I wonder if your males colouring will become like mine or if these are the variances. Does your male have a slight blue outline to his lower lip?

Good luck & I hope they are in very soon.

Enjoy.

Attached Image:


Cheers
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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 09:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks to all 3 of you for the input, I guess that means that you basically approve of that fish.

NowherMan6 - indeed I bought them at AF, and it must have been the pair that you saw, as they are in the store for about 4 weeks already. They have been in the tank with some younger discus and pencils. Also - when Tom and I went to the tank we first couldn't find the male as he was hiding in the fake plants, which - Tom said - is usually a sign of an agressive female during breeding. So your statement confirms his assumptions, awesome.

Robyn - Well, if mine don't color up some more then I assume that I don't have a pure Triple-Red set here. I was reading up on these fish a few weeks ago and if I remember that right then fry of Triple-Reds are of varying color schemes, the blue print of regular cacs, red, double red, and triple red. Maybe mine are somewhere there in the mix. I guess time will tell
Also, my female is almost as big as my male (or - the male is just a little larger than the female), to me that means that the female is quite a bit older than the male who still has some growing to do while she is all grown up.

Tetratech - I hear you. I wish one could record the thinking process that goes through a hobbyists mind when he/she stands in front of a tank at the LFS that has a nice fish or fishes. In split-seconds, an attempt is made to shuffle existing fish around the tanks, try to see where these new ones could be squeezed in, and what not. Gladly, most of the time we can resist, otherwise all our tanks would be stocked like my 125G at Espei-Hay-Day.

Ingo

Edit: Robyn - Yup - blue line on lower lip, but I only saw it in the LFS, later he was too scared in the bag.


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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 10:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I guess that means that you basically approve of that fish
Yep

Re: the fry, I've read the fry can be red, double red, triple red or orange flash & a mixture in the one brood, even if the parents are both confirmed as the same type eg double red, triple red, etc.

You wait till you see your male open his mouth. That is one big mouth on a little fish.
Maybe mine are somewhere there in the mix.
Who cares really what mix, as long as they are pretty & give their owner pleasure. Mine were sold as double red, but after reading up, I think they are triple red. Somewhere I read if tail, dorsal & anal fin are all red, then they are triple red. If tail & dorsal only are red, then double red.

But what the heck - they're pretty

Cheers
TW
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NowherMan6
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Awesome Ingo, they are beautiful

When I was watching him it was the female that was hiding at first - he was going after his reflection in the tank like a betta Later she came out and he definetely made a few attempts to wrap his body around hers, and she was pretty accepting of it. Now, I'm pretty sure that's not necessarily the breeding act itself, but it seems like standard courtship behavior. Soon you'll have a harem!


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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 13:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Hey,

I am rich, rich, rich ( sounds familiar? )

If you saw them in the LFS, NowherMan6, then you remember maybe how much they cost , being not all that much cheaper than my Apisto viejita II pair.

Uh Robyn, we are going to have so much fun comparing notes, and all the arguments about what defines single, double, and triple reds .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 13:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I am rich, rich, rich


For the last time, you don't need to be rich to use ADA substrate!



Aaaanyway, that's pretty standard for set-pairs of apistos I think. If you go through a breeder online you'd pay maybe 12-15 for a pair, but then you have to add in 30 or so for shipping. It all evens out, just standard fare. They're hardy enough though, so I dont think it's a wasted investment.


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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 13:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,
What was the price tag on those guys? I was looking at some about a month a go at a fish store up north. I think their price was 14 per fish or 24 for a pair. Just wondering what it is like out your way.

Can't wait to see some more pictures. They are very nice fish. Someday I hope to get my hands on some but that might mean another tank set up. Oh darn....

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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 14:06Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Let's see Wings,

Trade in 30 Espei for $1 a piece, shell out another $20 = $50.

Interestingly, the two times I traded in Espei I always ended up with using the money to buy Apsitos.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
and all the arguments about what defines single, double, and triple reds
Noooo, no arguments, just fun comparing notes. I'm very glad you have this fish, it is like confirming that my choice to buy this fish was a good one, now that you have the same fish.

I would like one or the other of ours to have babies though, to see if it is true that you can get all the different variants from one pair.
For the last time, you don't need to be rich to use ADA substrate
I am living proof of that fact, that's for sure.

Have fun

Cheers
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... is like confirming that my choice to buy this fish was a good one, now that you have the same fish
Hey, just because I have the fish doesn't mean that it was a good choice, although I am flattered by your statement.

I selected this one for a few reasons:

- A rather pretty Apisto
- One of the easiest to maintain
- One of the lesser shy ones
- The easiest to breed

At least that is what I was reading about them.

Ingo


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Tetratech - I hear you. I wish one could record the thinking process that goes through a hobbyists mind when he/she stands in front of a tank at the LFS that has a nice fish or fishes. In split-seconds, an attempt is made to shuffle existing fish around the tanks, try to see where these new ones could be squeezed in, and what not. Gladly, most of the time we can resist, otherwise all our tanks would be stocked like my 125G at Espei-Hay-Day.


I would love to put another tank in my "Fish-Kitchen" but I believe the inhabiants would end up on my dinner plate.
My wife has been a good sport allowing two tanks down there. So if I want more fish some will have to go:
On the possible moving list are:

- 4 rummynoses
Great fish only lost one since I started my 72g and that was in the first 2 weeks of setup
- 4 Black Neons
All 4 have been with my since I started the 72g.
- 5 Pencilfish
Great fish, haven't lost any since startup
Problem with all these fish is the kinda blend in and at the same time make the tank look to chaotic. If I move these I might take my 8 gold tetras out of my 12g and use the 12g to house a pair of rams or apistos.




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Hm,

I may be wrong tetratech, but I think to remember that the male Apisto's territory requirement is approximately 2 square feet, which would not be given in the 12G. On the other hand, I don't know what the consequence of less space would be, maybe more aggression towards the female, or maybe the complete intolerance of any other moving creature. Also, I don't know if this applies to all Apistos or only to some of them.

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Some apistos are more aggressive than others. Borelli's and tri's are smaller and less aggressive - they may work better than cac's.

A pair of cac's would work in a 12, but the way tetra has his set up now, with little breaking up of sightlines and virtually no plant cover (other than on the substrate), may not be the best for them. If it was more jungle like I'm sure it would work.


Back in the saddle!
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Working or not,

Here are a few shots of mine from tonight, just for the giggles. When I came home they both were more or less in hiding on opposite ends of the tank.

Later they came out and scavenged the substrate for snails and other goodies.

Here is the female at work:

Attached Image:

Female I



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As you can see, it appears as even she has blue lips.

Here is a better side shot that also shows off her blue face markings:

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Female II



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In this head-on shot one can clearly see her lower lip. I didn't know that females have that too. Hopefully I did not get a male of a different species by mistake.

That would be a bummer...

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Female III



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And here is a head-on shot of the male.

Also visible is his clearly blue lip.

He is only a bit larger than the female, which in turn has the size of a grown-up, pretty much the one of my female viejita. The male is much smaller than the male viejita.

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Male I



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So, how was that again?

If the anal, dorsal, and caudal fin are red then it is a Triple-Red?

Hm, he has red in all three, but there seems to be at least some yellow at the base of the dorsal and caudal fins. I wonder if that still counts:

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Male II



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Here is another side shot of him, showing off a little more blue on his face.

From the base structure, he is slightly different from my male viejita as he has somewhat of a hump on his forehead. Is that normal?

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Male III



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Last but not least,

Robyn, didn't you mention that they have big mouths? I knew that from my viejita, but I was able to capture it on film (eh, digital image) for the first time. I guess that is what you need when you eat snails in one bite.

Or maybe he is just sleepy

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male IV



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very nice pics i have just plain orange tailed one that i got from a friend. their okay i guess... but yah anyway
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Red on all 3 points, now if what I read is right, that makes him a triple. That's what LFS told you too, so it would seem to be right. Everything on him looks redder, now he's not in the bag. Your female is very pretty & has more markings than mine, plus mine is more yellow I think. No blue lips on my female.

That is a great shot of his open mouth. Love it. Your pictures are so good and clear. My tank lights currently off, but I'll check for a slight bump on head, but I've not noticed it previously.

Beautiful looking fish Ingo.

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he has somewhat of a hump on his forehead. Is that normal
Looked more close at my males head & what I noticed is that above his mouth & up to his eyes he has ridges (looks a bit like when someone raised their eybrows & maybe gets those lines - but more like folds of skin. Then a very slight flattening & rises again after his eyes. I think yours looks normal.

I looked at my females mouth, & maybe I can see just a hint of blue on her lips. Not a solid blue line though - only just parts show a hint of blue (maybe). She has the basic same shape lip as him, but so much smaller that it is hardly noticable.

Did these guys feed easily or you?

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Thanks bratyboy2 and Robyn,

As I stated in your log, Robyn, your male has more red than mine in the fins. Given that my male is barely larger than the female, there are two things I conclude:

- He is not grown up yet, but she is. So he still has time to color up until adulthood hits.
- Maybe your female isn't all grown up yet and that is why you cannot see the blue lip.

Feeding: I fed them for the first time last night (I don't feed fish on the day they come out of the bag, too stressful for them to digest well).

I started off with a tropical fish flake mixe (I alway crunch the flakes to be smaller). Both fish did not come to the surface where the 3 resident Platies were eating away, but quite a few flakes were sucked under by the current from the HOB and they ate these. Messy eaters, I may say, I would guesstimate that over half of the food is expelled from the gills, maybe a sign that they don't really like it (yet).

Next I added some freeze dried blood worms, but they all floated. I oberseved one piece going down and that one was first eaten by the female (and expelled right after) and then by the male, also expelled. At least that one particular piece was not to their likings.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Thought this link might interest you http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/apistogramma_cacatuoides.php.

Maybe this one too http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1437

But I bet you'll tell me you read these already, right?

Cheers
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You know Robyn,

I haven't seen either or link before, thank you very much. Sometime today, if I have an hour or two to spare, I will peruse these links and many others to identify more closely what I exactly have there.

BTW, did you see Theresa's pictures of her Cacs in the photo booth? I find the female to look completely different than mine.

Ingo


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so have you gotten them to breed at all... im waiting for mine to in my pool filter sand tank
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Hi bratyboy2,

Well - if you read my entries then you must have seen that I only got them two days ago, so take it easy

Give them some time to settle, I am not in a rush. If they want to breed, then I will let them. If not, fine as well.

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 7

A few things have happened during this week, none of which are very dramatic, but worthwhile mentioning anyway. I will get to these points at the appropriate detail shot, so bare with me.

To start, here is a shot from last weekend, for comparison purposes:

Attached Image:

Last Week



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And here is the tank from last night, after maintenance and water change.

The first thing you may notice is a different look of the Barteri, and with it more light to the front left section. The second, and last, thing you may see is a change of parts of the wood positioning of the left group:

Attached Image:

Latest Full Tank Shot



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Before the water change, I notice a small section in the tank, confined to two to three leaves of the micros sword, on which thread algae (the longer kind, maybe staghorn) started to grow.

This area is right next to the spot (the rock to the right in the main shot) where I feed the Otos some cucumbers. I believe this is related. The one slice I added this week was completely eaten within 2 days.

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Some Threads



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I am rather certain that my water quality is currently a little worse than it used to be. The reason for this is that quite a few parts of the micro swords are deteriorating, most likely an unavoidable side effect of forming small plugs of them when planting as some sections of these plugs may get damaged or not planted properly.

Here you may be able to see some brown parts on the lower area of the swords:

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Swords Issue



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The next, and by far biggest issue of this week, was the discovery that the Barteri is disintegrating in two spots where it had sections that broke off during transport to my house.

The first sign was a dying leaf about a week ago, and this week another one followed and required me to take a closer look.

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Dying Barteri Section



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When I touched the area of the rhizome in which the leaf was dying I could feel that it was all mushy. I took the scissors and attempted to cut the rhizome back, under water. Now that was fatal. First of all, the scissors were not sharp enough to get a clean cut. Secondly, the whole Barteri came lose. Third, the wood of that group started to shift in the process

This is, in general, the one thing I don't like about lots of small braches that form a group, they shift all the time. Last week it was the right group, this week the left.

Back to the Barteri, I had to take it out of the tank, trim 2 sections way back, tie it to a rock, and place that one onto the left hill. This concluded in the new look of that area.

I don't know if that was enough to stop the disintegration of the plant, we will see. Here is a close-up of the group:

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Left Group



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And for completion purposes, here is a shot of the right group.

Oh, almost as important, but not captured in a picture, I discovered a life form on the tank glass, approximately 1 to 2 mm long, skinny, white, and moving quite fast. Copepods of some sort? Dangerous? How come?


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Right Group



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I think these animals have come in with the last plant order, I have to say that the micro sword was not the cleanest plant I ever received. Do you remember that I mentioned the mini rain worms that I discovered in the bucket after cleaning the plants (like tubifex worms)? Another passenger group that came in were snails, most likely common pond snails. For now they are not too bad yet, and in a few weeks I will have fish in the tank that will appreciate them as live food.

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Snail



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The last 2 shots are commited to the future residents of this tank, my new Apistos that I purchased as part of a trade in of 30 Espei from the 125G. These Apistos are currently in the 20G QT, but they are displayed here as this is their tank in the long run.

Here is the female:

Attached Image:

Female



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
EDIT: Make sure to read the Weekly Update on the previous page, I have a few questions

And here is the male. So far, they stay mostly out of each others way in the QT. Once in a while the male slowly comes closer to the female until he is at her side, then he gives her a nudge and she swims away, not in a rush though. This, I believe, has nothing to do with mating, I believe he would like to occupy the hiding spot that she has at that moment as this never happens in the open water.

Attached Image:

Male



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Algae: Give it a big shot of Excel. Should turn red and go away.

White things: I think there was a thread about this not too long ago.

Female Apisto: Is that a snail on the righthand side eatting the wisteria?



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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
did you see Theresa's pictures of her Cacs in the photo booth? I find the female to look completely different than mine.
Yes I did & I don't recognise my female amongst her photos either.

I tried hard to get a good shot of my girl to show you, but all turned out poor. Rather than clutter up your log, they are in my log http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/28921.2.htm?38# if you want to look. There are 3 of them, individually not very good, but maybe after you've viewed all 3, you may get an idea of how my girl looks.

Wish I could help on your other queries, but I know the more knowledge plant nerds will be able to help.

Re: breeding behaviour. I've noticed with both my apistos, that when the female is in the mood she tilts her body sideways at the male, flashing her belly at him. First noticed it with my bita girl, as she quite a passionate girl (either hates her mate or loves him) then watched for the same in the cacs. My female cac is doing it tonight, but the male is not taking the hint at the moment.

I wonder if you will see this tilting to the side movement of the female. Does your other apisto girl do it at all?

Cheers
TW
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Wish I could help on your other queries, but I know the more knowledge plant nerds will be able to help

Hey, I'm no nerd. I play softball, coach soccer and bowl on a mens bowling team

Any who. This all started after you removed all those "weed" from the tank. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Sloooow moves. I don't believe in big changes to a tank at once. Tut, tut, none of your feable excuses about floating plants, yada, yada, yada.

Mimic nature, everything happens slowly. Tanks have to adjust to differences in plant mass and fish load. There is wiggle room off center, but there has to be balance.

I doubt if the cucumber feeding caused the algae. I know you and Robyn like to feed the little guys, but I don't think they need anything extra. I noticed alot of droppings in the tank. I do drop algae wafers in my tank from time to time because I'm in short supply of the stuff.



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Hey,

I am not complaining about the algae (yet, ), I was simply stating that it was there. And it was in only one spot, too much of a coincidence to be not related to the cucumber (and maybe the bunch of poop that was nearby as all Otos must have eaten at least their own body weight in 2 days).

Wings, the snail is not eating the leaf per say, the leaf just happens to be in bad shape from the replant (didn't get good light before replant, was mixed in with Moss) and a snail just happened to eat on it.

Robyn, yes, my other girl does that as well, at least once in a while. I am not sure if this is a mating thing though. I would assume that the belly area of a fish is one of its most vulnerable areas. I assume that offering this area to another fish is a form of submission in general, showing that the other fish is accepted as the boss. Other animals do the same thing by offering their throat.

Ingo


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Well, that is a true bummer, I am so mad

The male Apisto is dead, I just found him in his cave. I assume his "hiding" was not a sign of mating or what not, he must have been sick. I will call the LFS tomorrow to see what they would have to say as even Tom, the main fish guy, found it a little odd that he was hiding in that tank (but he assumed it was because of mating stuff).

This is the worst nightmare, now I only have a female left, grrrrr

Ingo


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Sorry to hear about your loss. I lost a fish yesterday that has not been recorded in my log yet so I know it sucks. Look at it this way. Maybe the LFS will hook you up with a new male and throw in a female for super cheap? One can only hope though. Best wishes!

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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
I'm so upset for you Ingo. I hope they will offer you another male - you had him for such a short time. Either that, or they refund you & take back the female. My fingers are crossed for another male though.

I felt close to these fish of yours. My heart dropped when I read your post. That really sucks.

Cheers
TW
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Sorry to hear about the fish. I'm sure the store will do right by you. I never thought the fish looked great in the pictures, but I couldn't put my finger on it.



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TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Ingo, don't be upset when I say this, but looking closely at pics of the male, I can maybe see what Tetratech is saying. I may be imagining it, but does the male look like his body is too curvy? If you can see what I think I can see (too curvy body) maybe you can take the pics to LFS as justification for a replacement pair.

When I bought mine, each mated pair was in a sep. tank. Was that the same where you bought them? If so, maybe you could argue that they take your female back & replace with a complete new mated pair. If they weren't paired up in this way, put your case forward for a replacment male. If you are a regular cusotmer, hopefully they will value your custom enough to oblige. Those few days you had him - it's just not fair to be now stuck with a lone female.

Cheers
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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 01:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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The algae looks like what some folks call carpet plant algae. I think it's a form of Utriculria.

It just seems to get into thick carpets of plants. I always had a problem with it with hairgrass. Never found a way to get rid of it except plucking it out. It never spreads beyond the base of carpet plants.

Sorry but the only cure I found was removing or seriously thinning the hairgrass.


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Bensaf - thanks for the info on the carpet algae, I will keep that in mind when it starts to spread. The particular section displayed in the photo was the only one in the tank that has been infected so far, and that part was easily pulled out, so right now I am clean again.

All others - thanks for the support on the dead Apisto, it still upsets me. The outlook lof a replacement is rather dim and most likely costly as well, here are some points:

- The LFS has a big sign that says "No guarantee for fish"
- The LFS has at most (if at all) one pair of each species of Apistos (with the occasional exception), and I bought the one Caca pair
- The LFS fought me when I claimed that I got a sick Pearl Gourami a while back, I had to argue like mad over a $5 fish to get it refunded
- Online offers of fish are also for pairs only, I don't know if I am into the idea of using both "hills" in the tank as shelter for 2 females
- Online offers are usually young adults and I have a fully grown female at home

Nevertheless, I will give the LFS a call today and tell them what happens, then I usually get the spiel "bring in the fish and a water sample", and of course I threw out the fish (no freezer entry allowed - wife).

Thanks again,

Ingo


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tetratech
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LF,
Your not exactly a typical customer that loses a fish due to poor water quality and besides your Published
If all this fails tell them one day their gonna get a visit by a mysterious man in a trench coat who goes by the name of NOWHER

Switching to your plants. I had microsword along time ago back when I was probably a "BigFish" or something. You can't trim the tops is the correct. It's like any other sword plant.

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Yes tetratech, you are right, I am not a typical customer. Let's see how far this will get me, I will keep you guys posted on the outcome of the phone call.

You know, I was looking at the micro swords yesterday and wondered about the same thing myself: "what would happen if I trimmed off the tops?" I am sure it would look nice, a neatly trimmed lawn in the tank. But seriously, what would be the consequences? Would the whole leaf die?

Ingo


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tetratech
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Funny thing about water testing. O.K. so you bring your sample in like some poor little kid who lost his goldfish and the LFS employee who probably isn't old enough to baby sit your kids let alone your fish, tells you it's high on nitrAtes that's why your fish died. Then you start explaining the who hi-tech, hi-fert, co2 planted tank thing and

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The one time when I brought a water sample to the LFS, a long time ago, I measured all values before bringing it in, this was a low tech tank (29G) and all values were 0. I was told that I have a tiny amount of Ammonia (or Nitrite, don't remember) and that was why my Neons died

Tiny, as in not detectable, and they use the same kit (or worse) than I do.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 15:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Hey*shakes fish at LF and Tetratech*!

I'll stand up for the LFS employee, being one myself, and plenty old to babysit a couple of snot nosed kids. First we don't check for nitrAtes, as that is very rarely a cause of death from costomers, seriously. If it is you can tell from the pH which is at like 2. Ammonia, nitrIte, and pH is what we test. We ALWAYS either give cash back to the costomer for their purchase, if the water looks like crap, or get them a new fish. Our guarantee states that you have a week if you bring the receipt, the fish, and a seperate water sample. The water sample shouldn't be used to blame the costomer, but to determine if another fish goes home, that's acceptable. But lets be honest here, try going into wal-mart or something and ask for a refund without the product. That's a nobrainer. They won't give you anything but a laugh. Fish stores however are expected to still give money back. This is silliness, and something I have a beef with our store, because we will give money back without proof that they bought the fish at our store or that the fish even died. Sometimes you get an honest guy like LF that really lost his fish and tossed it, but most of the time I KNOW we are getting screwed.

Sorry this all comes from a year+ of getting harassed by costomers. Once I was even told that I shouldn't work there because I didn't know anything about one of the rarer fish we had in the store(the costomer obviously didn't know either, why ask right?). Like I should know everything about all the fish in all 320 tanks we have.

[/rant]

but still see what you can get them to do, we'd give you money back, or a new fish without even blinking an eye. AND we never sell our apistos as pairs.



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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 16:05Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Matty,

I would love to shop at your store, and to be helped by you would be my pleasure. As to my LFS:

- we'd give you money back, or a new fish without even blinking an eye. No No

- AND we never sell our apistos as pairs. No No

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 16:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Well first off, my trenchcoat days are over, sorry i can't help you there LF.



But keep in mind Apisto Cac. is a harem breeder. Adding another M/F should work, unless you just don't want the dynamic. The females may fight a bit at first but you have plenty of room in that tank, I don't see it being a problem. The choice is yours, obviously, but a new male would gladly take to the old female for breeding purposes, it's just in their nature.


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I'll stand up for the LFS employee, being one myself, and plenty old to babysit a couple of snot nosed kids. First we don't check for nitrAtes, as that is very rarely a cause of death from costomers, seriously. If it is you can tell from the pH which is at like 2.

Matty, I know you work in a LFS and this was not meant as a blanket statement for all stores so please don't take it personally, but it does happen, because it happened to me. The store was trying anything to not give me credit. And there are at times very young employees working there, but there are also older gentlemen as well. Even very seasoned LFS stores that specialize in saltwater fish, when I tell them I'm adding no3 to my planted tank they look my like I have 3 heads.

I put this in the "With Planted Aquaria throw alot of pricipals out the window (cycling, anerobic bacteria impact, nitrates, etc.)"

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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 16:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The idea of simply getting a second pair, and as such ending up with 1m / 2f, has crossed my mind. In detail, the considerations are:

- both females will set up breeding quarters, I would assume logically that they would be under or around the individual wood groups. As such both breeding spots in the tank are taken and don't leave space for another kind of "herder", like Rams.

- I am not sure about aggression between females when competing for one male. Assuming that a new pair would ultimately conclude in one female being younger than the other, this could become a problem.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 18:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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OK,

I have news:

I just hung up the phone from a talk to the LFS, with their senior fish guy. He remembered that the male was a little strange and had no issues giving me store credit for it. He even gave me options:

- return the female and get $50 credit
- get another pair (when available) and pay only for the female
- get another male only (when available)

Now, that was a nice and almost unexpected move on their end and puts my ranting to shame

So, what to do? I like the female, she has a very nice coloration and markings (except a yellow body though yet), but what if she would be sick too (behaves normal and feeds nicely)?

Thanks for informative input,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 19:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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The pair cost $50. Were they established breeders? If so that's still a bit pricey. If that's a price for a mated pair(established as breeders) then I'd take the female back and get a new mated pair. If it's just a m/f pair then I'd keep the female if she seems healthy. That would be a ton of hassle to get her out of there.

And no offense taken, I just gotta back up the LFS once in a while. They always get bashed, so I gotta go and bash the costomer back....not that it was directed at you guys either. I'm sure you guys would be the 1 in 20(kind of a stretch, maybe 1 in 30-40) costomer that you are actually happy when they walk in the door.



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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 20:25Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Ingo, that is good news. That's a hard one, now that you have CHOICES. I've heard that 2 females can, or can't work - it depends on the females personality & how tolerant she is of another female. As you will have lots of wood & plants to create visual barriers, you have a very good chance of it working & your tank is fairly big too.

Why don't you hold onto to the female until a pair arrives & then decide which female you like best, or if you want to keep both? Or is it likely to be too long a time till he gets more in? Or is it because you are worried the female will succumb to sickness too? If you are even a little worred about that last scenario, I would take her back now while you can, & start again with a new pair.

Anyway, that is great news.

Matty, the LFS you work at sounds like a great place to shop. Pity you're so far across the ocean from me. I hope you don't get too many customers taking advantage of your great policy.

I've had some really great LFS, who have bent over backwards & gone above & beyond, but my 1st LFS . Unusally, this LFS records all customer purchasers against your customer no on their computer - so they know what you've bought. I have bought 3 tanks from them & another one for my stepdaughter, with the associated gravel & what not. In February I bought 8 harlequin rasboras from them. In less than a week, all of them had died. They knew the purchase was from them. They tested my water & tried to find every way they could to say it was my fault, although he reluctantly said my water was fine (Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 & pH was 7.2). He said maybe it was the pH that killed them at 7.2 & very reluctantly, he credited my store account. I bought products with the credit, but never a fish from him again. Not because I thought his fish would all die, as I'm sure it was just one bad batch of fish. He made me feel I was a liar & maybe that I intentionally killed my fish. I wouldn't even mention to a LFS if a few died (unless they are costly apistos) - but all of them?????

Since then, I've found other LFS who I think give great service & look after me well. The moral of the story is that there are 2 sides in most situations & not all LFS are the same. Some are great, some not so great. Yours sounds great.

That's so good that you sell apisto as singles. Here you can buy rams, bolivians or african cichlids as singles, but apistos are very hard to find in Aus & are ONLY sold as pairs - that's if you can even find apistos at all.

Keep us posted on yours, Ingo.

Cheers
TW
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OK gang,

Here is the update, but don't kill me for it.

So I call the LFS at night to see what they got, and although they ordered a pair of Triple-Red they did not get it in as the wholesaler told them it was in bad shape and didn't look good. Instead, they got a beautiful pair of what they call Double-Orange.

I was offered to wait, return the female, get a new pair, and what not, and decided on getting the double orange and bringing the female triple red back to the LFS. So, equipped with a fish bag, I marched downstairs to fish her out, but looking at this beautiful fish I could not do it. So I decided to keep her, for better or worse.

Well, I went to the LFS and the orange one looks very nice as well...

Anyway, here is the male (what can I say, I am a sucker)

Attached Image:

Male Double-Orange



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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 01:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And just to tell you, they are so closely related that the fry of the orange has some triple red in it. Read THIS LINK for details on them, although they call them Orange Flash.

And here is the female:

Attached Image:

Female Double-Orange



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The male is still pretty young, but at least as big as the female (bigger, I think). Here is his first encounter with the resident female.

Oh oh

Attached Image:

First Encounter



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And here is his second encounter, this time he is showing off his nice orange finnage.

I hope he impresses her enough to be a possible mate.

Attached Image:

Second Encounter



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Not only he was visited by the resident female, the new female got to meet her as well. Scary, but nothing else than raised fins happened so far.


Attached Image:

Female Check-Out



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As you know, my 20G QT is not that densly planted right now. So I stole a small flower pot from the wife, banged open the small hole a little, and placed it in the tank as an additional hiding spot.

Please let me know what you think, I have about 1h left before they come out of the bag, tell me if I should change something. And - what do you think about the 3 fishies now?

Here is a full shot:

Attached Image:

Tank with Fish in Bags



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NowherMan6
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LF, how did I know this would happen...

I like them, they look good. And good idea leaving extra hiding spots. If anything maybe move the pot to one side or the other, and add another pot or two on the other side. Having it right in the middle may effectively establish someones territory in the middle of the tank, leaving the other with veyr little room on the side.


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NowherMan6,

What can I say, the female Triple-Red looked at me and I could not let her go (sucker).

I would have to destroy the scape and in the process maybe mess up the water column (floating stuff currently in the Eco) to add pots to the sides. There is a good hiding spot below the heater in the right back, and another ok one on the left side of the tank by the wisteria and the rock.

Do you think this would do for one day? The store just got them in today and I don't want to reduce the water quality with floating crap (maybe even literally).

Ingo


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I would have to destroy the scape and in the process maybe mess up the water column (floating stuff currently in the Eco) to add pots to the sides

Um, very nice fish, but the scape is history, because
THERE'S A RED FLOWER POT IN IT.

I respectly request that this thread be moved to Cichlid Central

My Scapes
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Well,

The tank that you see is not this tank - it is the QT. As such, if at all, that thread should be moved there

BTW, Tom from the LFS mentioned to me today that he thought the male didn't look all that good either, but he was hoping I could beef him up a little. We all know how that ended. On the other hand, he says this male is in good (excellent) shape.

Ingo


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OK,

Last entry for today:

The fish have been introduced about 10 min ago. The room in which the tank is has had all lights off except for the 125G lighting, so it was pretty dark, but enough for me to peek on the events in the tank.

First the male was hiding, but then started to swim around. He encountered the triple red female first and displayed, but she didn't seem too impressed. At least she didn't attack him.

Next he found his double orange mate, there the display was way more intense, with swimming head to caudal fin (toe) next to each other, fins wide spread, and a nudge to make her move away (on purpose, or part of ritual, I don't know). No doubt he is working on the Boss role, we will see what the resident female thinks about that.

The two females have seen each other from the distance, but not up close yet. This actually for me is more scary than the male/female encounter, I am a little worried that the stronger one will seriously hurt or even kill the weaker one.

Then the 125G went dark too and I couldn't see anything any longer.

Good night,

Ingo


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TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Those Orange flashes are just gorgeous Ingo. He's so much nicer looking than you're other male - brilliant colour. Orange Flash is the name I know these by too.

You can get much smaller flower pots, the smallest I have are only 1.5inches deep & 1.75inches in diameter. You can get them in varying increasing sizes. These smaller ones can be much better hidden. If rocks can unintentially be hidden from view, then surely these small pots can too. They are hidden in my 23.5 & can't be seen. I expect yells of protest for this - but it will depend on if you need them for fishy safety really - that was what forced me to add them.

I still like the idea that someone (was it Rick?) gave you earlier in your 125G about using plastic black film cannisters with a hole drilled in the end. I started collecting these & was going to use them (you wouldn't even see these - they'd blend with the black eco & put plants around them). Not sure if LFS was right, but he told me to be careful just in case the plastic leached toxins. I don't see how it could, as I thought the plastic would be inert, but still, it has scared me from using them. What do you think - do you think it sounds like fact or nonsense.

Anyway Ingo, back to your fish. They are simply gorgeous. Glad they came in so quickly. The link/s I gave you also mentions them (as Orange Flash) and tells how the orange flash can have fry of all the red varieties too. BTW, that site you linked to is where I got all my advice for dealing with aggression in my apistos. Very helpful bunch, if you need specialised advice.

Look forward to hearing future breeding news

Have fun. Glad your day has ended in such a happy note.

Cheers
TW
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Thanks Robyn for the comments on the new fishies. As it is still dark right now, I don't even know if they are still alive, but we will see (actually, I will find out no earlier today, except if I call the wife from work later on to go downstairs and check on them).

The pot - well, that is only a temporary solution. I compromised the "desgin" of this tank as it is primariy a QT and has to fulfill that purpose. Once (and if) all 3 survive for long enought (4-5 weeks) I will add them to the 40G and in there are certainly 2 good spots, one for each female, that will not require the addition of artificial hiding spaces.

When I added the pot I was scambling to find anything that I can use, and this was the smallest my wife had. I also looked into the toy collection from my children (evil me) to see if there is a smaller similar shaped container, but while doing so I thought about toxins leaching from plastic and decided against it. True or not, I don't know, but better safe than sorry. Film roll containers feel different when touched than children toys, but I could imagine that they are treated in some form, for example to reduce the built-up of moisture. But I am just guessing.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 10:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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OK, seems the toxins from plastic theory may have merit, as you also preferred to be safe, rather than sorry. I'll take that route also & remain safe. Thanks for the comments on that.

Cheers
TW
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No problem Robyn, I am always glad to be able to state my opinion, even if it does not hold any merit

Let us keep our fingers crossed that this trio will live happily ever after, maybe tonight I can post a few shots of the guys in the tank.

Ingo


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Nice fish! I like the orange better than the reds... that is just me though...

Ahh off to hike to class in the heat!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Ingo, you constantly tease me with your pics. If it wasn't for an empty wallet, I would have setup a 40g planted tank of my own so sit beside my 120g monster tank. Pics look amazing. Are those guys from AF?
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Yup Mike,

They are from AF, Tom was very helpful as the original pair of Triple-Red that I aquired last Thursday saw the loss of the male on Sunday and Tom was kind enough to agree that the male didn't look all that good in the LFS tank either and as such offered me all kinds of options.

So I opted to keep the female Triple-Red and go for a pair of Double-Orange (Orange Flash, if I am not mistaken) on top of it.

And - Midnight Madness is coming up soon, so maybe your wallet is full enough for this

Wings - have fun in the heat (and thanks for the comment on the latest addition)

Ingo


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Ok,

So here is an update from what I have seen going on in the QT within the last 20 min.

First off, a list of all payers involved.

Let us start with the resident female, the Triple-Red, who is for sure the oldest of the gang:

Attached Image:

Triple Red Female



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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 23:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Moving on to the new female, the Double-Orange, or should I call them Orange Flash? She is the smallest of all 3, but not all that much smaller than the male.

She stays mostly close to the bottom, but unlike the sick triple red she is out and about, on the right side of the tank:

Attached Image:

Double Orange Female



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And on to the boss man, the male Double-Orange. He is all over the tank as well, sometimes nicely colored while othertimes in his "I am scared" dark gray outfit.

His fins are still a little ragged, but if this is the only problem I will encounter then I am happy.

Attached Image:

Double Orange Male



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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 23:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Unfortunatley, this picture shows what I observed in the tank, in particular during feeding when she ventured into other areas of the tank to grab a bite. He is threatening and attacking her, and she runs off, darn. Not always though, sometimes he is showing her his side first.

As a result, she didn't seem to have gotten a lot of food, but she got some at least.

Attached Image:

Double Orange Couple? Doesn't Look Like It



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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 23:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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On the other hand, his behavior towards the Triple Red female is much different. Although he occasionally gives her a nudge on the side, it mostly looks like this:

Attached Image:

Orange Red Mix



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As you can see, she is still at least his size, if not bigger. But, I assume he has made his choice (for now) and she doesn't seem to mind his flattering behavior too much, as can be seen in the next picture.

There was one occasion when it looked like he wanted to herd her into the pot, but I couldn't get a shot of it.

Attached Image:

Orange Red Mix II



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Check out pictures at bottom of last page

And, just because I find it a nice picture, here is the male chasing flake food into the flower pot.

Have fun,

That's it for now (dinner time),

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male in Pot



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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 23:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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He is threatening and attacking her, and she runs off, darn
Remember my "sworn emenies". You never know how these things will work out - you know they are now parents.

Anyway, the colours are lovely. Makes me want to run out & buy the orange ones too.

Cheers
TW
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Yeah, I remember Robyn, and that turned out well - so far

Actually, that behavior was the worst just after feeding, when fish in general claim their stake as they wish not to share any remaining food.

I actually fed some more, and this time I use SF Brime Shrimp and even my other female got her share for sure. And she was at mid-level, and the male did not make too much of a fuss.

Thanks,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-Aug-2006 00:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I actually fed some more


I'm listening





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LF, quick, do a massive WC before he really gets mad!

Sounds like nice apisto behavior. Get one more female and you'll have yourself a nice colony!


Back in the saddle!
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Hey there

Chill tetratech, it is a low tech, medium light QT, no need to worry. Nevertheless, it gets weekly 50% water changes while new fish are in there.

It will be all right, no algae will appear, I promise

Ok, so, maybe a little

Ingo

EDIT: NowherMan6 -


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Post InfoPosted 02-Aug-2006 01:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Chill tetratech, it is a low tech, medium light QT, no need to worry


O.K. carry on...splash....splash....ahhhhhh

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Post InfoPosted 02-Aug-2006 01:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
jase101
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hello ingo and gang,

it was me who posted a while ago about the film canisters for breeding apistos - and i can assure you they are inert. i am curently looking at my smallest tank, only thirty litres, with one pair of triple-red cacs and their 20 or so 5-day-old spawn...laid, fertilised, and hatched in a film canister.

in such a small aquarium i would know of any poisoning pretty quickly - but i've used the cannisters in a variety of contexts for over five years and never had toxin issues.

they are just so easy to position and hide, and are smooth, which the female seems to appreciate, and easy to clean in between spawnings. as i said previously, they are also small enough for the female to defend easily - a must if there are any potential egg-eaters in the tank.

anyhow, if you don't want to risk it, don't do it - but think of all the ornaments, plants, tubes and pieces of equipment in people's tanks already which are the same moulded plastic...

peace

justin
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Justin,

Thanks for the input. I believe that your observation of film canisters is assuring that they are proper for tank use.

Conceptually speaking though, just because plastic on aquarium equipment is not toxic doesn't mean that other forms of plastic would be the same. Plastic comes in many chemical combinations, and on top of it some plastic products are treated afterwards with chemicals, for example to avoid fungus growth and what not. I could imagine that it makes sense to treat film cannisters so that they produce less condensation (although I have no idea how this would be done).

Plus, given that you are sooooo far away from where I am, who knows if the plastic components and treatments of film canisters during production is the same in, I would assume, very different production plants.

As a smoker that I am , just take cigarettes from the same brand produced in different countries and continents. They are sooo different in taste and intensity (although they all kill).

Justin, no matter what, your input is always appreciated, so keep it coming

Ingo

EDIT: and oh, Justin - how do you like the Double-Oranges?


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Post InfoPosted 02-Aug-2006 13:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Hey Justin

You are not so far away from me - are you in Sydney? So I'm more likely to have the same type of film cannisters as you. Mine come from Kodak film - would that be the same as you use? How do you make them sink. I find that they float. I have thought about using aquarium safe silicone & attaching a lead fishing weight to the underneath to keep them down. How do you manage it?

Sorry to hijack your log with this question Ingo, but I haven't seen Justin in my log, so don't know how else to ask you Justin. Pls forgive.

Cheers
TW
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Robyn,

Not only are you forgiven, I find the question very relevant for my log as well. If I ever should decide on using film canisters, it cannot harm to know how to handle them.

My guess would be to partially bury them.

Ingo


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Update on the Apistos:

Boy oh boy, he sure is a dominator. He basically takes position in the middle of the tank and confines the females one on each side. If they try to venture out then he is attacking them head first. He is in particular harsh on the younger female, the other one doesn't seem all that impressed by his attack but will eventually retreat to her tank side anyway. The Orange female, on the other hand, takes flight as soon as he comes close, and if she doesn't see him right away then an attack is unavoidable.

I also had to overfeed again, she was not able to get any food the first time around.

Should I be concerned?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-Aug-2006 23:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well I work in the plastics industry. Never thought I'd need it in a planted tank forum

Plastic won't leach anything into the water. Most plastic molded products use pretty much the same small group of plastic materials, there are just slight variations for color, pliability etc but it's basically the same small group of resins. Everywhere.

Plastic is not usually treated for anything. For the example of the film canister possibly being treated for condensation - well what do you think the foil wrapper the film comes in is for ?

Co2 will corrode some plastic,mainly the very soft ones used for airline tubing and sucker pads, over time. Co2 is relatively acidic (hence the pH drop). But even this won't release anything harmful to fish, normal waterchanges more then take care of it.


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Post InfoPosted 03-Aug-2006 04:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Plastic is not usually treated for anything. For the example of the film canister possibly being treated for condensation - well what do you think the foil wrapper the film comes in is for ?
Well, I expanded the options of possibilities from the material to the treatment based on a recent reading in one of the fish magazines. There, a question on why someone's pond fish died was concluded with the fact that he used a pool cover as the pond base rather than a pond liner. And pool covers (made out of plastic) are treated to minimize the settlement of algae. So here is a case of treatment for plastic.

But in any way, Bensaf, your insight into the plastic industry is for sure helpful and another reason to finally drop the concern over film canisters

Ingo


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jase101
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greetings,

re: floating canisters: i make rock formations around them, jam them under driftwood, whatever it takes and whatever you like the look of. i did have a couple which were each glued to a small rock, which kept it sunk, then just built and planted round them. i'll try and take a photo some time of my current set-up, and post a link.

tankwatcher, i'll jump over and have a look at your log now and have a chat with you there rather than hijack ingo's thread.

justin
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Chances are with the pool cover that it was used on a pool at one point and still had chemicals on it.

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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Should I be concerned?
I don't know, but I think you are a worrier, like me , so you probably will be concerned anyway. I can only offer the advice I was given. If things seem bad, remove the agressor temporarily (for a week or 2) & rearrange the hiding spots during the absence. Have dither fish in there, but I think you do anyway. They're in your QT with platys, right? Make sure you have lots of visual barriers in there. In my "problem" tank, fish can swim around the back section of the tank, without being seen by fish in the front section. The back section also contains at least 3 hiding places, as well as driftwood barriers & dense planting. The front section also has at least 3 hiding places. You need to have multiple hiding places spread out throughout the tank (Justin's film cannisters?) so a hassled fish can make an emergency gettaway, without having to go all the way back to their own alloted hiding space in their own alloted territory.

Hoped you wouldn't have this problem, as my cacs are very peaceful.

Anyway, hope this helps. Also, they may just sort this out themselves, once they have the status quo sorted out amongst them.

Cheers
TW
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hi ingo,

i forgot to mention, your new cacs are GORGEOUS. mine bring me so much pleasure, and the first time you see yours with a little brood of bubs you'll be hooked on them. they are aggressive, but highly individual, and in my experience the females are usually the ones in control - but if need be, put the boy in a breeder trap (but keep him in the same tank so they can see him) for a few days so the females get a chance to eat freely and really explore territory. once they seem really comfy, reintroduce him. once she wants to breed he'll be the one running for cover! i love that a tiny yellow girl can have such power over a male three times her size - just goes to show the power of sex.

regards, justin
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Thanks Gang for the info (and compliment) on the Apistos

For right now, I will let them sort it out. As long as all 3 seem to get food I am not too worried.

Last night I came home really late and didn't even have a chance to check on the fish, when I left this morning it was still dark, work is going strong this week (yet again). This means that I neither know how they do nor did I feed them. But two prior days of overfeeding make me very comfortable that all should be good.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Update on the Apistos:

When I came home today I was seeing the QT for the first time in 2 days as I was at work so late and had to leave for work so early again that it was complete darness down in the basement while I was home.

When I approached the tank today, I only saw the male, strotting around the tank. None of the females were anywhere. I started looking around in the tank when after maybe 5 min the Triple-Red came out from underneath one of the pieces of driftwood where there is a small gap between wood and substrate. She was instantly attacked by the male, but not too bad overall as long as she stayed all the way at the left side of the tank.

I could not find the Orange female and took the glass top off to search, even with the help of a flashight. Nothing! I started to use my fingers to search through the plants, after all had been searched still nothing, not even a body. I knew that my next option would be to remove all hardware as she may be somewhere under some wood or something.

But before I went on to do that I decided to feed the tank, maybe she would come out if she "smells" the food. And sure enough, after about 3 minutes of feeding I saw her race through the tank, being chased by the male. He seems to really be mad at her all the time, he tolerates the other female to some degee but as soon as he even sees the orange one it is an all out chase until he loses sight.

What to do?

Ingo

EDIT: Now, maybe 15 min after feeding, both females have dissapeared again


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Post InfoPosted 04-Aug-2006 23:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Sounds like it's time to get a breeder trap or something and put the male in time out.

Give the females a chance to strengthen up and stake some territory maybe?

Rick
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Ingo, you sound like you're going through what I did with the apisto Bita's. I sometimes would not see the male for days at a time, as he was hiding out from the female. He didn't even come out for food, as he didn't like what was being offered. Net breeders were my form of time out for my aggressive female & I was lucky enough for the time out to work. I think my male bita will always have a skittish personality, but he no longer has to hide out & can openly swim the tank.

The hard part for a scaper is that the advice is to rearrange the tank during the time out. I fully sympathise with you on this - I know what you're going through. I totally thought I would be left with a fish death (aggression coupled with rejecting food). It took nearly a month, but it has worked out. I can only say to try temporary separation & during that time re-arrange & add heaps of hiding spaces (small pieces of driftwood, rocks, film cannisters - things they can swim into or underneath to hide. Make sure there are visual barriers. I have a couple of thin curved pieces of driftwood that are about 4inches high. They act as sort of fences that a fish can swim along the length of without being seen on the other side by another fish. I have two of these, running the length of the tank, but slightly offset from each other. From a scaper's point of view it might make things hard, 'cause for a while at least, 1st priority has to be give all fish a good chance to live in the tank without always feeling scared of harassment. The funny thing is though, in the end, this tank I have had to compromise arrangements & planting to suit the fish, is also the tank that I'm now the happiest with how the plant display looks.

Keep us posted.

Cheers
TW
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jase101
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ingo, get a breeder trap or a betta trap and seperate him. he wants to breed and the girls aren't ready for him. give them a couple of days to de-stress, put in some more hidey holes for them (film canisters, perchance? hehehe) and give them some time to eat and get a sense of territory. by seeing him they will probably get in the mood to mate, and then be a bit more on an 'even' playing field with him.

regards, justin
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Thanks for the advice, Rick, Robyn, and Justin

Today the tank is due for a water change anyway. If I am not mistaken then I have a breeder net available, I tend to buy things just in case and now would be one of the times when such a purchase could come in handy.

I don't have any film canisters handy, I haven't taken a conventional picture in over a year

I have one of Jeff Senske's woods still available, maybe I will add that and also rearrange the existing rock and wood formations.

I will keep you posted.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 05-Aug-2006 13:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,

I know we have been talking alot about the cichlids, but how are the plants doing thus far, please notably the microsword. Do you see fresh runners, etc.

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Still life!!!!!



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Post InfoPosted 05-Aug-2006 14:55Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Tetratech,

I promise that my weekly update will contain more on the tank in itself, sorry to bother you with fish stories

But quickly, the micro swords look pretty much the same than last week, I will have to take a closer look during the water change.

Wings - Boah, you are fast

On the Apisto Frontier (sorry again, tetratech), here is a look at the tank now, and Here Is A Link to the whole change process (also explains why there is not Breeder Net in the tank).

Ingo

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Post InfoPosted 05-Aug-2006 16:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
jase101
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btw, ingo, i wouldn't be surprised if your triple-red female is a male in disguise....there's a lot of colour in them there fins!!! i thought so initially but didn't want to say, but now there seems to be territiory issues etc i just thought i'd add the possibility to the mix...

justin
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Boah Justin,

I know about submissive males in disguise, but that is a shocker

Please elaborate what makes you think so. I read that the est breeding stock of female Triple-Reds are the ones that have a lot of fin coloration themselves, as such I interpreted her as good stock.
Would that not mean that the Double-Orange would more likely start a fight with her/him rather than the other female? He is not leaving her/him alone, but he is not going after her/him as bad as he does towards the other.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 06-Aug-2006 00:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
jase101
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hi ingo - sorry to be the bearer of bad news - i just thought it may be a posibility. the females we get here in australia are never so colourful, so maybe she is just god stock. i also note that her first two 'spines' of the dorsal fin are quite short, so in fact she may wel be female. however, pointers against her are the absence of the tear stripe, and the amount of blue on her face, both of which i would be circumspect about. certainly if i saw her as a juvenile i would have my doubts. but anyway, only time will really tell.

regards,

justin
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Sorry Tetra, more cichlid talk.

I wondered about your female too, as she does not show the usual yellow body colour of a female triple red here. My female does have a small proportion of the corresponding male colours to her fins & tail, but her body is yellow, which matches in with my female bita as well. I am certainly no expert, but this is just what I have observed from mine & others I've seen for sale. I'm probably far from right and would think your LFS who sold her to you would be a far better judge & they think her a girl - she she probably is. I haven't read your "link" above yet, so I'll go do that now.

Cheers
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Justin and Robyn,

Let me first get to the usual task for this weekend, then I will show more pictures and share some thoughts about the cross-dressing fishies.

So, Weekly Tank Update - Week 8

Not too much has happened to the tank during this week, the focus was more on fish that are not even in the tank yet.

During the water change this weekend, I came to the recognition that this tank in its current design is not working to well.

The keyword is instability. The easiest to fix is the CO2 tubing, which came off twice this week alone, not too good for constant water conditions. Harder to fix will be the driftwood. All these individual branches are very lose and this makes it hard to vacuum around them. I wonder if I should tie them all together or how else I would be able to keep them more solid.

On top of it, I begin to see your point with the micro swords not being effective and the hills being not even identifyable as such

Anyway, here is the tank from this weekend, after the water change:

Attached Image:

Full Tank



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Other things of concern is that I have now identified two Anubias Nana that have melting rhizomes. Slowly but steadily the entire plants melt away, losing about 1 leaf per week.

The Barteri doesn't look all that healthy either, certain areas of the various rhizomes show brown spots, usually the first sign of melting.

As you can see, overall I am not too happy. Here is a shot form a short side, looking at the Nana group.

Attached Image:

Nana Nana



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The last directly tank related picture is a top down shot to show the micro swords from that angle (someone requested that shot a while back).

The out-of focus spots on the picture are duckweed, the dark area is a driftwood flat on the surface. This shot was taken from the backside of the tank.

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Micro Swords



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Back to Apisto talk:

For the time being, I will still consider her female, too lazy to constantly type he/she and such.

Here is another shot of her, showing the tear stripe (thanks justing, I didn't know this marking has a specific name, makes lots of sense though), but also the blue facial markings. My female viejita (and she is a female for sure) has these markings as well, although much less):

Attached Image:

Female ?



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Here is a shot of the two females, as you may even be able to detect from the shot the triple red is the more aggressive one. Rarely does it come to a direct confrontation, but if it does then it is usually solved by flashing and the orange one swims away. Once or twice I witnessed a picking though.

Attached Image:

Females ?



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Maybe even the orange female is a male in hiding, I am not even sure about that anymore. She also does not display a yellow body and no tear stripe at all.

Here is another look at the triple red. The one thing I notice is that her pelvic fins are quite a bit shorter than the male's (the dead one).

Overall, her entire body shape is rather different from the one the oranges have, she is more stocky.

The stock, by the way, is most likely from Germany, the capital of Apisto breeding. At least that is where the LFS thinks they get them from (wholesaler would know).

Attached Image:

Female Or Male ?



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Here is the only one I can be sure about, this guy is a male. His behavior is all male, flashing and chasing and what not. His pelvic fins are also longer than the ones of the triple red.

That is it for now, let me know what you think about tank and fish,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male !



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Whatever their sex, they are gorgeous & time will tell I guess. Eggs would be a nice way to settle it once & for all I agree you should call her a "she". That's what she was sold as, so that's more than likely what she is.

It seems that at least the aggression is enough under control for them to be swimming around the tank & pose for pictures. Mine are said to be German bred fish too.

I always enjoy looking & your tank & plants. I've had an anubias start dying on me & I think it was caused by me tying the fishing too tight & strangling the poor plant. No doubt that is not your problem, as you'd be able to see that.

Cheers
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You will see me in rage if it should turn out that I got 1 or 2 males in disguise and paid $75 for the set.

Maybe the male Orange is so agressive towards the female Orange because he notices that she is a male as well

Anyway, thanks for the compliments Robyn,

Ingo


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Lf,
Nice shots. Looking at the female? triple-red and looking at the orange-flash male I don't see much difference in fin size between the two, but I am by far no expert.

Nice microsword shot, but you never answered my question are the plants growing? Do you see fresh runners and are they growing taller as well?

I've mentioned ths before, but I have a good idea for your hills. If you intent on using the microswords as a foreground you need to get those hills much higher. It can be done with just rock work, but to make you life easier and provide moore stability you can use women's stockings.

Cut a womens' stockings into pieces and fill each with eco, making a sort of bunker out of them. Put some rocks against, on top, below the bunker of eco-filled stockings and this will give you good height and it will look natural. It will also provide more depth for the branches to be more staple.

Then you could move the microsword around in the lower area created and you should be able to see your mounds.



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I have lost total faith on who of them may be a female. I will call the LFS on Monday and ask if they can be sure about the sexes they receive.

Great idea tetratech, I will have to think about how to restructure the tank. The raising of the hills crates a potential issue in overall height of the hardscape though, as I have only a total of 16" to work with. Guess I should have gotten the 50G instead.

The micro sword is still shedding original leaves in some parts of the tank, mostly where the light is limited (as expected). I see a few new sprouts creeping just off the plugs, but not too many.

Thanks for the compliments on the pics,

Ingo


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Females typically have a lot of the black coloration on their ventral fins, only one of the three has any, and it's slight enough that it could still be a male. Females generally don't have a lyrate caudal fin, the only one of yours that doesn't is the male. The cac spikes at the anterior of the dorsal fin are usually a dead giveaway, but none of the pics have any of them extending their dorsal fins, so I can't tell. The posterior of the dorsal fin is always a place to look as females have a more rounded look, while males are elongated. Nobody is yellow yet either, which comes with maturity, so that's out I guess.

Tough case you got there LF. I think one might be a female(with the black on the ventral fins), the other "female" still might be given some time to mature.



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Ok,

I will make one more attempt here with pictures and other info, this is driving me nuts

First of all, thanks Matty for the very detailed explanation on sexing Apistos, very helpful (and I thought young Rams are hard to sex).

I found This Site and I would like to quote some of the text:

Here is a part about Apistogramma gibbiceps: Males possess lyrate caudal fins. I point this out because it speaks of males only.

Here is the part about Apistogramma cacatuoides: The cacatuoides-group species are characterized by their robust but slightly elongate bodies, enlarged lips, extended anterior dorsal fin lappets, and usually lyrate caudal fins. No mention of male or female is attached to this section.

Anyway, here are a few shots. First the dorsal fin of the Triple-Red:

Attached Image:

Dorsal Fin



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Here she is again, showing off her extended anterior dorsal fin lappets.

Matty - you said that this would be a give away, so following your statement this would be a male, right?

Attached Image:

All Fins



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Matty,

Explain this sentence of yours: "Females generally don't have a lyrate caudal fin, the only one of yours that doesn't is the male." I have no idea which one you talk are talking about.

Here is a last shot of the Triple-Red:

Attached Image:

What is it?



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Here is the proposed Double-Orange female. Even when she raises her fins she does not have extended anterior dorsal fin lappets, actually they are very short.

She is the smallest of the group.

Attached Image:

Double-Orange Female I



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Here is another shot, I am not sure if it helps with something, but I am desperate so I guess any clue helps. Even the Triple-Red is now displaying towards her when she gets too close, but, unlike with the male Double-Orange, the Triple-Red is not actively persuing her.

Attached Image:

Double-Orange Female II



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And the last one of her, I believe it shows that she does not have a lyrate caudal fin.

I don't know

Attached Image:

Double-Orange Female III



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And just for comparison, the only one I am pretty sure about, the Male Double-Orange. He also does not have a lyrate caudal fin, but he sure has the extended anterior dorsal fin lappets.

I guess I will also post the male/female question in the Cichlid Forum, giving the question a larger exposure than us plant folks (ACIDRAIN is there once in a while).

The Confused Ingo

Attached Image:

Male Double-Orange



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Matty - you said that this would be a give away, so following your statement this would be a male, right?


Yeaaaah....my somewhat educated guess for the triple red - male. It has extended anterior and posterior dorsal, along with the lyrate caudal(tail). I get the information about the lyrate caudal fin from the Mergus Cichlid Atlas V. 1. This info is cacatuoides specific:
"On reaching maturity they[males] develop a distinctly lyrate caudal fin, whereas the caudal fin is round or, at most, slightly truncate in females."


Who knows what intense breeding has done to the species though.

The "female" orange flash could be an immature male. It has one node on the caudal fin showing the start of a lyrate tail. It also has very extended posterior dorsal fin. I would say time will tell on this one.



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Man,

That is all very confusing

Add to the mix that NowherMan6 had seen the "pair" of Triple-Red about a week before I bought them, and that he identified them as "playmates", at least they behaved as such.

Grrrrrr ....


Ingo


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Ingo,
Thought you might be interested in this if you haven't seen it. It's a thread on APC shows a few pics (not great)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fish-for-the-planted-aquarium/28948-my-apistogramma-cacatuoides-double-red-just.html?highlight=Apistos

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hi ingo,

i feel a bit bad for having started this whole thing, but remember, you are a caretaker for three beautiful little fish, and you can enjoy them regardless of gender. until there are definite signs such as the females yellowing up for breeding, or the absense of breeding, or them colouring up totally into males, there is really no way of knowing. i'm sure every memeber of fishprofiles has a weird gender-based fish story to tell. no fish shop should ever claim to sell 'pairs' of a fish which is as notoriously hard to sex as cacs, especially when they are juvies. subordinate male, alpha female, less colourful alpha male, wild-caught v line bred, it's all too tricky.

you take impeccable care of your tanks and there would appear to be no other reasons for them not to breed - so i think if the females are going to yellow up and start to court, they'll do it pretty soon. give them another week or so and if still no luck, then i think you might have gender issues.

*sigh* good luck, ingo.

justin
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Ingo, sorry to hear about the mess

I would ask over at cichlid-forum.com, they should be able to give you plenty of opinions.

I definetely saw them being intimate in the LFS. The male came over to the other one, the other, rolled over onto its side and he started to wrap his body around the other. This doesnt seem like aggressive behavior to me, seems more like mating, or suggestive of mating.


Back in the saddle!
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Thanks guys,

Even looking at various links, the situation is not clear. I went to the LFS last night and talked to Tom, the head FW fish expert with whom I also arrange my Espei trade-ins. I asked him about the chances that the wholesaler got it all mixed up, and he confirms that this is theoretically a possibility. We bounced some thoughts of each other, like which fish to move to the 40G in order to see the other(s) show their true colors (genders), what to consider when trying to sex them, and what not. Overall we must have talked for at least 30 minutes, but neither him nor myself came to any solid conclusion.

So, here it the plan: I wait 4 weeks to see what happens

Ingo


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Loooong time no new entries, so

Weekly Tank Update - Week 9 AND 10

Having not been too wild lately in reporting on my tanks, partially because of work load and partially because of vacation issues, the last two weeks will be handled in one sitting.

The first thing I did to my tank about a week ago was to replace the CO2 tubing with a gray one from ADA. I also moved it way down on the side, this way the glass diffuser cannot slip downwards out of the tube. And what can I say, so far it holds.

The main topic of this week is the fact that my thread disintegrated faster than the anubias could grab hold on rocks and wood, I had to retie quite a few of them this weekend and more are probably to follow.

Overall, the impression I get when I look at my tank is:

BORING

I am neither happy with the plants, nor with the structure. The anubias still show signs of melting, but the micro sword starts to spread, the only good thing.

All Otos are still alive.

Here is the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Last Week - Week 9



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I am considering to order new plants this week, but I don't know quite what to do. I for sure would need way more anubias in order to make an impression with them on the right side, but should I simply replicate them on the left side as well?

I am wondering if I should add the micro sword to the 125 instead, I think it would look better there. On the other hand, that tank has gravel and the plants may not root that well, not to mention that that tank is in a bad shape right now. And if I remove them from this tank, what should go in their place?

Here is the tank now:

Attached Image:

Now



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The only other thing worthwhile mentioning is the ongoing male/female discussion on the Apistos that are slated for this tank. I have a thread in the cichlid forum where pretty much all agree that the Triple-Red is a male, and most are undecided on the "female" Double-Orange. She is being chased by the male Double-Orange whenever he sees her, so she spends most of the time in hiding. The other two swim in the open, with the Double-Orange male dominating most of the tank and making sure that the Triple-Red doesn't get too daring.

Last shot for this update, the maybe female Double-Orange:

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Double-Orange



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Hey LF

The fun with your tanks continues!

That does look awfully male-like. One would think if it was a female she'd have the black eye band by now, and would be yellowed up... but I guess only they know. Honestly, even if they are all males you could always move the V. pair from the 125 out and move these three into there. They'll find their own territories. You could even contact a breeder and buy a few females to throw into the mix with them. Just an idea...

As for the tank, I still like the hardscape and I know where you're going with it. Once the java fern grows in it'll be a different story, but for now that huge Anubias has to go, it just throws everything waaay off. You can replace it with nanas maybe, but for now you'll have to wait for the ferns to grow in in order for the scape to fill out.


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Thanks NowherMan6,

Can you imagine that I have 10 Nana's on the other hill right now? They are barely visible and don't make a large impact either. And at $5 a piece! I would need about 15 to 20 for the left side to make an impact there (given that 30% are melting on the initial 10).

Before I create a group of all male Apistos I will return the male (supposed) triple-red first and then purchase a female double-orange. If she then looks different than the supposed female above then it is good-bye to the latter as well (back to the LFS).

If I only would have known that I have all this trouble with the Cacs I would not have gotten even the first pair of them

Ingo


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That's rather disappointing that the LFS would sell not one but TWO pairs of male Cacs. You'd think they'd be able to tell with at least one of them...

As for the scape - wow, it looks nothing like 10 nanas over there. IMO - and just a suggestion here - you may be better able to utilize them if rather than sitting them all in the middle between the wood, you tied them on up along the length of the wood at its base. The wood is thin, you could probably just use black twist ties to do the job. Then fill in the gaps along the base with crypts. They're a different leaf shape and will grow taller than the grass. Bronze wendtii 'tropica' would be nice since it'll stay low and have a nice color contrast as well.

I made a little mark up below, just to shor what im talking about - tie the anubias where the red circles are to that the leaves are sticking out towards the glass and a little bit up, vary it, then use crypts by the blue cirlces. Just an idea

Attached Image:



Back in the saddle!
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NowherMan6,

Good ideas, thanks a lot. These ideas would also be better incorporated if I could manage to get the inidividual branches to come out from a more focussed center on the individual hills. So far, my attempts to do so have all failed as the pieces themselves don't seem to cooperate to well with my twisted mind .

But yeah, these are 10 Nanas there. I recovered the picture from a few pages back that shows you the entire plant load that had been added. Note that each Nana does not contain more than maybe 5 leaves, some even less, and remember that I lost maybe 10 leaves so far to melting.

But you are right, the Barteri has to go, it was meant as a temp placeholder anyway until I figure out what to do with that side of the tank.

Ingo

Attached Image:

10 Nanas and Other Plants



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It is about 5:15AM and I am up since half past midnight. Today was the annual event at my LFS known as Midnight Madness, an event where the LFS is open from 11PM to 2AM. It sure is madness, as, when I arrived at about 1:20AM, I still had to wait over 20min in a line to even get into the store.

I didn't want to buy anything, for sure no new tank and no new fish. So, I ended up with a few nicely sized starter plants of Bolbitis heudelotii, or African Water Fern. I am planning on replacing the Barteri in the tank with this plant today.

Any advice would be appreciated before I get going around 11AM.

After coming back home at about 2:30AM I tried to go back to sleep, but I guess the coffee I had before I left showed its effect. It is going to be a tired day.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Aug-2006 11:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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male usa
Today was the annual event at my LFS known as Midnight Madness,

Gee, I wouldn't mind going to starbucks and then midnight madness. They don't have that around me

I African fern looks nice and should be a good constrast with the microsword. Are you going to take some nana from the right group and use both nana and the african fern on both?

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 26-Aug-2006 14:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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I think what this tank needs is a better photographer. Try taking some pictures of the tank at some different angles. From slightly above(not top view, but that might be nice too), the side, anything to show off the fact that it is viewable 360* and is planted for that purpose. You gotta get one of those pics we can rotate any direction we want. I'm sure this tank is way better in person.

The only other thing I can think of is to break up the microswords with some interesting plant here and there.



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Post InfoPosted 26-Aug-2006 15:25Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I think what this tank needs is a better photographer

Matty getting a little cocky after his perfect pearl shot.
Actually that's a good idea about the photos. A top down would be much more revealing.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 26-Aug-2006 15:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Hey now, I didn't say that photographer should be me . I sneak out a good pic with my dinky camera every now and then though. It's not like Ingo's photos are bad, they are pretty good, just straight on. I think tank shots from the front straight on are great for tanks scaped to be viewed straight on, but this tank is meant to be viewable 360* and should be considered when taking pics of it. I would want to show that depth if it were my tank anyways. I think it would make it less boring as Ingo put it.



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Post InfoPosted 26-Aug-2006 15:42Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Yeah right Matty

Well, the recent shots of the tank on this page are in compliance with my weekly tank updates, all shot from the same angle to show differences in the tank without distortion of varying the position of the pictures. I will make sure that I will shoot some crazy angle pictures this weekend as well so Matty gets of my case .

Tetratech - Thanks for the heads up on the Bolbitis. I thought the same, the darker green should contrast nicely with the micro sword. For the time being, I will simply replace the Barteri with it, I don't have enough to split it between the two groups.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Aug-2006 16:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 11

The tank in itself has proven more stable than it used to be in the past ever since I added the more permanent plants. Only two additional Anubias leaves had shedded, I assume the disintegration of the rhizomes has stopped or is coming to an end.

The tank has seen some changes, as announced in an earlier post. First a small review of the tank over the last few weeks, and then a load of shots (on Matty's request ) from different angles and some details.

Here is the tank in week 4, the last weekend with the orginal growout plants in place:

Attached Image:

Week 4



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Post InfoPosted 27-Aug-2006 13:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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