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I think it was Ben that was talking about some people using skimmers on their FW planted tanks. I would have to do some digging around to find out what exacly it was about but I think it had to do with the scum layer you sometimes get on the tank. Right now I don't really have to time or energy to look it up but I thought I would throw it out there.



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

That's a surface skimmer. It pulls water off the top instead of taking water from the middle of the column. Yep, it's used to get rid of that surface scum. A protein skimmer is a totally different story and operates on increased surface tension of salt water. It makes lots of little bubbles and proteins rideon those bubbles into a collection cup. The proteins will contain nitrogenous wastes and Phosphates and things not yet broken down into ammonia and other simple wastes.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

That's a surface skimmer ... A protein skimmer ...

That is why it is good to have a dark side person here in the forum

On the tank side, there is nothing new to report. The right hill female barely comes out of her cave while the left hill female is obviously trying to get the male to come into the cave with her, which he doesn't. She switched colors really quickly from a drab gray to a medium yellow (not as bright as my viejita female is all the time) when the male is near by.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That's a surface skimmer.

Thanks Mr. Darkside! What would we do with out you!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

What would we do with out you!

Try to get rid of surface scum with a $100 SW contraption?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Try to get rid of surface scum with a $100 SW contraption?

:: calls BigAls to cancel order ::

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Back in the saddle!

Well,

I am a father again



When I came home tonight the female of the right hill was out more often than before, but mostly active all the way to the right of the tank. Upon closer inspections I found her hovering over a group of wigglers. Hard to tell how many are there, I think to have seen maybe 5

I know, it will be hard for these little guys to make it, but at least my guessing on what is going on was correct. The little ones are maybe 1mm long and white, occasionally lifting themselves off the ground about an half an inch or so. This is also the first time for me that I see a mother fish in action, picking up one guy that strayed too far from the spot where the others where and then spitting him back out into the center of the group.

I tried to get a shot of it, but it is really hard. Here is a picture as good as it gets for the time being. The white thing in the circle is one fry.

Question:
Should I do a water change on the tank tomorrow?

Ingo

Attached Image:

Fry in Circle

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi,
I'd pass on the water change. Many times the parents
perceive the ruckus as a threat and they actually eat
their fry.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Congratulations grandpa. I had a sneaky feeling this was what was going on. My female became scarce during the egg guarding period too. Came out for food & short appearances, but mainly was unseen till she brought her brood out. It makes the tank really interesting when you are watching her with them. I could watch mum & fry for ages - but then, maybe I need to get a life.

The advice I got when I had my apisto fry was that they require really clean water & that you do frequent small changes, but take it from the top water column. No gravel vacuuming & such. If you are not target feeding with BBS, the water issue may not be so crucial for you. Usually, if you are target feeding them BBS 3 times a day, there is waste & you need to clean it. If you are just going to let things happen, as they happen & let the fry try to find food in the tank, I don't think frequent cleaning is required. My females never ate their fry (that I saw) but I know that it does happen. Some say even the sudden turning on & off of the lights can spook her into making such a mistake. That was why I put a little moon light there. You can either have it going the whole time the other lights are off (it helps her to keep away the other female, if she is a fry eater). Or you could just have it go on for a little bit before & after the main lights turn on & off. The change over then is not so sudden.

5 or 6 was all I got from my girl's 1st try, but her next try was just over 20.

Fingers crossed for you Ingo. Keep us posted on this exciting development. I hope some make it.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Frank and Robyn,

I will take a closer look at the situation today and decide on the fly if I should do a water change or not. I certainly would not like to risk algae issues just because there may be a chance that some fry are still alive. If I do a water change then I will get the water from the top of the tank.

I am also thinking about soaking some flakes in water to almost dissolve them and then use a dropper to spot feed the mix.

I will keep you posted,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey congrats Ingo. Looks like the females were a little older than I thought. I agree that frequent water changes are the way to go. BBS just fed in general would be a good idea IMO. The adults will eat it too. For the planted tank, I'd just feed it sparsely though, like you said overfeeding is going to cause algae, unless you want to go ahead with the breeding that is.

So I don't know if we got an answer of if you were going to let them try to find food on thier own or if you were going to pamper them?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

So I don't know if we got an answer of if you were going to let them try to find food on thier own or if you were going to pamper them?

Given that I am not in posession of BBS, the answer is simple, they are on their own .

It worked with the Espei, but of course I saw the major population explosion in that tank when there was still some diatoms available to munch on.

We will see what happens, and yes, I will do a water change today. Maybe I even continue some replanting on the opposite side of the tank, this may stir up some eatable gunk for the fry. But I think I have currently no more plants available to replace the micro sword. I will see.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well, here is the good news and the bad news:

Good: the water change went well, I could not see any issues with the female.

Bad: now I see that the male has found the fry and he finds them tasty

I only see 5 left where there were at least around 10 a few hours ago.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Naughty daddy

Did the mum give him "what for" for his error. Usually both are good parents, so that's a shame. Are you sure dad ate them - did you see it? These fry are very fragile & not easy to raise from what I've been told & what I've found by experience. If you saw him red handed having a snack there can be no doubt, but if not, he may not be to blame. Remember, in the end all of mine were removed to grow out tanks (by the fish guy & some by me). One by one, they just died.

Also, do you have frozen BBS over there? I have found one brand that sells it & have used it. I think live BBS stimulates fry more with their swimming, but the frozen will still move around a little with the current - but the waste does tend to sink.

Re softening the flakes. You'll still need to crumble the flakes really well before you soak them. These guys have tiny, tiny mouths.

Don't be downhearted if none of the remaining 5 make it. Didn't take long for this batch to arrive, so I'm sure it won't take long for the next batch either.

Good luck & keep us posted.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Yeah, I have seen it . The female did flash him to go away, but when he intruded anyway she was overwhelmed and let him have his pickings. Just before dinner last night I did not see any fry anymore

Weekly Tank Update - Week 17

Not much has happend with this tank during the last week, except that my theory on breeding activity has been validated. But, as stated above, it went as fast as it came. On a positive note, the other female stays now mostly inside the hill on the left, making me believe she is only a few days behind the one on the right. How many batches will the male eat? I am considering removing him if he keeps on doing that.

I did some minor changes to the tank during the maintenance though, you will see them in a later picture.

Here is the full tank now:

Attached Image:

Now

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a close-up of the nest of the fry, with the female over it. At this point there were still a few fry in there, but they are sooooo small that they don't show in the shot. BTW, this is not the spot where the eggs were, they were hidden much deeper inside the hill. She brought the fry out there for whatever reason.

Attached Image:

Female

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is the part that I changed this weekend. I removed even more micro swords and replaced them with some very small klippings of Hygro that I had left from the 125G trimming. They are now lined up on the left short tank side:

BTW, behind the rock is the cave of the other female.

Attached Image:

New Area

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a full shot of the tank in a slight angle to show the depth a little better. BTW, algae has this week not been a major issue, the new bolbitis growth still seems fine, although it is not as high as the old one yet.

Attached Image:

Front Angle

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is the center area of the tank from the front, with the one fish in it that makes me a little angry these days. As pretty as he is, seems like his belly has more to say than his parental istincts. I wonder if the water change had something to do with it as before he never got close to the fry.

Attached Image:

Male in Center

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Last picture, a look from the back of the tank, also showing the 125 and the 29

I think within the next few weeks I will keep on reducing the micro swords until there are none left. For this tank it was certainly the wrong plant.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Back and Other Tanks

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That is too bad that he is a fry eater, instead of working as a team with wife no. 1. Maybe as the female matures, she will become confident enough not to allow him to do this. Matty believes she is young I think, so she probably needs to mature a bit more & get used to the idea of defending - even against her larger mate.

Lets see how he does with wife no. 2.

My favourite shot is the tank's frontal angle. I like the little triangle of space in between --- what are they --- the micro swords? If so, I hope you leave these ones in the tank. This is a really nice looking tank.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Robyn,

Yeah, let us hope they will beat the crap out of him if he tries that again.

what are they --- the micro swords?

That would be blyxa, you have it as well

Thanks for the compliments,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That would be blyxa, you have it as well

So the micro swords are to the left & right?

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

If you look at the last picture, labeled "Back and Other Tanks", you will see the micro swords on the left third and the right-most areas. The blyxa in the middle is separating the swords.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I like all the angles Ingo . The one with the other tanks behind it is really cool.

I'd say give them a few tries, maybe don't try to sneak in a water change this time and see what happens.

As for the new scape, I'm not sure that the hygro will be the best on the open veiwable side, that stuff can get so hairy as to block out the view from that side. But I'm sure it will fill that space functionally as it's a fast grower. Maybe if you keep it cut short like it is now, it could continue to look great there. You're right about the microswords. They look to me like they keep growing up as well. Weird plant, I can't say I ever cared for it, not just in your tank, in mine too. Mine was even starting to spread out and I still took it out. Blah.

I agree about the blyxa. I still need to get myself some of that. I'm just going to wait until I kick the algae.

Your tank on the other hand, looks very algae free. Very nice.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Just wrote a whole post and then deleted it

Basically - Tank looks FABULOUS. ]


please can I have your permission to print off some of the photos in this thread to show the guy at my LFS?

I won't copy it but its looks so nice and well can I please?

Its a little bigger then my tank but it gives me a vague plan.

GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

Thanks everybody,

Matty - yeah, the hygro will not look good over time in that spot, I am 100% with you. But, having had some clippings from the 125G I thought it looks for the time better than the micro sword does. Yes, when I pulled out my sword I had up to maybe 8 inches of runners hanging on it.

The female Apisto has abandoned the breeding spot and is courting the male again. I guess this means that I can be certain that there are no survivors. The other female is trying now, we will see how that goes.

GFG - Thanks for the compliments. Sure, go ahead and show off my tank But you will have to write more to my thread than "Tank looks FABULOUS."

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I had typed loads! and then the stupid internet froze.




GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

you will see the micro swords on the left third and the right-most areas

Thanks LF. These micro swords remind me a little of my hair grass or lilly grass I have. I'm glad that it's not the blyxa that you are going to remove. I like the little separations you've made with them.

Yeah, I agree maybe try it without the water changes this time. I don't think water quality issues are quite as important, if you aren't target feeding. The target feeding does cause extra waste, which you need to deal with. I was doing small water changes every 2nd day when I was feeding with BBS. You're not doing that, so miss a weekly water change & see if it makes a difference to his behaviour. If he still snacks (and I've heard that it can become a habit) maybe temporarily removing him may be the only option, if you want to save fry & the female is not yet able to defend against him.

Cheers
TW

Thanks GFG and Robyn,

The issue with water changes is less one of pollution from fish waste and food, as the tank is now really lightly stocked, but more of a problem of plant fertilization. I have higher N and P values in my tank that rely on weekly water changes for being reset. I would have to lower my dosages in advance so I don't drive Nitrates up too high.

Ingo

PS: did a 20G Ingo-Style overhaul, gonna go and post the pictures there now

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Long time no post, so here is one:

The second female did indeed breed under the hill on the left of the tank. I guess moving fry once hetched is a common thing among Apistos, at least in my time. This female moved them all the way to the middle of the tank, between the center group of Blyxa and the extended arm of a piece of driftwood. Again, it is a rather open spot.

She seems to have more resolve in defending that spot, she chases all Otos away and even nudged a snail so many times that it changed direction and moved somewhere else. The male is coming close once in a while and she holds him off so far, we will see for how long.

I have only seen one wiggler in there, so not much hope for more.

I know it is a crappy photo, but it is the best I got. She is sitting in there and watches for intruders.

Ingo

Attached Image:

Nest

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Congrats on the breeding again

If this is the first time for them they may not get it yet. After a few spawns the male will eventually figure it out, or so I've read. In the mean time, enjoy the guarding behavior - I always got a good laugh out of my brevis pair pitcking up MTS nearly the size of them and spitting them out on the other side of the tank

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Back in the saddle!

Finger crossed, Ingo. Congratulations again.

Cheers
TW

oooo exciting.

Good Luck Ingo.
GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

Thanks NowherMan6, Robyn, and GFG for the good luck wishes, but you are too late already.

When I came home last night the female was perusing the tank again, not paying attention to the "nest" she was protecting so carefully a day earlier.

At least we know one thing for sure by now, both females and the male are fertile.

And I can do my water change today without worrying.

Have fun,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Bummer. Me thinks these apisto babies are not so easy to raise.

Better luck next time.

Cheers
TW

Can't expect much from first clutches. All cichlids are like that. They'll learn, give 'em a few tries.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks folks,

Don't worry too much for me, I see the fry as a nice side-effect of the tank and not its main purpose. If I will have fry growing up then this would be awesome, but if not then I will be ok as well.

On to the main topic:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 18

Nothing happened this week, kinda boring I have to say. The only event was the breeding attempt of the second female, producing wigglers but nothing more.

Here is the tank two weeks ago, for comparison:

Attached Image:

2 Weeks Ago

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the tank today, some things have changed a little since then. For one thing, the micros on the way left have been replaced with hygro. One can also see how much the Pearl Grass on the right front has grown. I did perform a little trimming on the left part of it and planted some on the left side of the tank.

Here is the tank now:

Attached Image:

Now

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Forgot to mention, you may also have noticed the duck weed on the top. I have it now in my 29, 125, and this one. It didn't work on the 20 though as it got sucked into the filter intakes too much.

Here is an angle shot from the front:

Attached Image:

Angle Front

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Look At The Full Frontal Shot On The Last Page, Please

And here is the angle shot from the back. If you look carfully at the middle of the tank you may see the fins of the male Apisto. That is the spot where the second female brought her fry this week:


Attached Image:

Back Angle

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

A few plant details, if you don't mind.

Here is the small Pearl Grass planting on the left of the tank that I trimmed off the right group. Also note the snails on the botton

Attached Image:

Pearl Grass

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The snails are serving as a nice live snack for the Apistos, although only the really small ones are eaten. So some large ones are good to keep the food source going

And these are working on that:

Attached Image:

Snails Making Out

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The last pure plant shot is, of course, another Anubias flower. If I have any success with something at all then it is the constant production of them. Currently, I have at least 4 of them in the tank, in various stages.

Attached Image:

Nana

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a plant shot with Apistos way out of focus

The Blyxa sits in the middle of the tank and is partially shaded by the wood branches above. I assume that is why it is much greener that the others. In the back you can make out the male Apisto showing off to the female (that you may notice) in the front.

Attached Image:

Blyxa With Apistos

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Talking about Apistos, I have not shown the females in quite a while as both were busy with the fry stuff. Here is the one that owns the left hill, the one that bred second. She seems to dominate the tank now, except for the male of course

Attached Image:

Left Hill Female

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the female that lives in the right hill. She is having a hard time right now with the male, he is chasing her away pretty badly. I don't know why that is though as she was the first one he mated with.

I guess it will get better at some point.

Attached Image:

Right Hill Female

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The last two picturs are for the other fish in the tank,the Otos of which I have not lost even one. This to me is the greatest surprise I have to say, I must have gotten really lucky.

Attached Image:

Oto

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You may remember that I initially supplemented their food with cucumber slices, but I have not done this in quite a while. I am sure that by now the tank has enough small algae for them to eat, otherwise I would not know where this belly would be coming from.

That's it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Oto Belly

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sounds like things are going well in there & the apisto gang are learning their place in the hierarchy of the tank.

Interesting shot of the snails. Do you actually see the apistos eat the snails? I never saw mine eat them & I always wished they would. Maybe they ate them in some obscure corner.

I haven't fed my otos cucumbers in a while either - been too lazy to do it - but they also don't seem to be suffering for it. I might give them one soon - just as a treat.

Cheers
TW

Lots of nice plant growth there Ingo, especially the bolbitus. Gotta keep the pearl grass in check though. It looks like it grew about 3 inches upwards. Mine tends to stay low and spread out. I think it's a lighting difference, but might have to do with trimming too. And I have to say that as it is right now, the hygro looks wonderful in the tank. I'm not sure if you want to try to keep it low like that, but if you did, I think it would work out well.

The females both are yellowing up a bit it seems to me. Even the female who is chased away is tellow and doesn't seem skinny or anything, so it appears to be working out alright. I'm sure the male will switch back and forth between the two. I'm really glad those feamles have worked out for you, it seems they were well worth it.

I'm not sure why everyone wants to get rid of those types of snails, they don't do any harm. I'm basically infested with them and I see no signs of herbivory. I assume they feed on detritus and/or algae. They sound pretty favorable to me. There are some plant eating snails, but those aren't that type.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks Robyn and Matty,

To answer your questions/comments:

Yes, I have seen the Apistos eat snails, but they must be very small. They pick them up and munch them in their mouths, then they spit out the crushed shells

Yeah, the Pearl Grass is growing upwards quite a bit, probably a light issue. I will have to trim it probably no later than in 2 weeks.

The hygro will not stay that small and constant cutting back will not do the plant to good. I may have to switch to some smaller plant, but for the time being it is ok.

The yellowing of the females is very different than the viejita style. Here, the females turn yellowish when coming out in the open and after a positive (as in not being chased) encounter with the male. The viejita on the other hand is almost always bright yellow, much brighter than the cacs.

The problem with snails is their numbers. Not because of plant eating, but because of waste production. So, too many are not good, some are just fine.

Guess that's it for now,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Your tank is looking quite sharp! It reminds me of this place that I trout fish often back home.

Great flower shot too! The only flowers I have right now are on my spider plant!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks Wings,I appreciate the input

Weekly Tank Update - Week 19

Really not much has happened during this week and during this weekends maintenance. I added some of the NL Java Fern from the 125G makeover to the right group, just smushed it in there as deep as I can without removing any anubias (not in the substrate, in the hill cover).

And that is all, I was way too busy with all other tanks to do anything else.

Attached Image:

Tank This Weekend

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a closeup of the right hill with the maybe 10 leaves (on 2 roots) of NL Java Fern addition.

You can also the the Pearl Grass on the right, in need of a trimming, but that will have to wait until next weekend:

Attached Image:

NL Java Fern

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Also in need of trimming very soon is the Hygro on the way left tank side. Actually, maybe a replacement with a more permanent plant will have to happen instead. How about some trimmings of the Pearl Grass from the other side of the tank?

Attached Image:

Hygro Getting Too Tall

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Last but not least, here is a shot of the bolbitis. I think it is beginning to become very dense. After the major cutting that I did a few weeks back it is doing much better and has almost no algae anymore. Also note the Crypts towards the right.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Bolbitis

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Oh Oh,

That does not look good

Tonight, while getting ready to feed the fish, I saw the male hovering above the substrate, just at the entrance into one of the hills. Both females were out and about, but he did not show to either, nor did he chase them.

Furthermore, once feeding started he did not come to eat his share. Usually, this is the beginning of the end.

I may have had the CO2 a little higher, but not so high that it influenced the other fish in the tank, the females seem fine.

Not good,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a shot of him, albeit not very good, that I just got. Since the last entry he has moved to another spot and then back to this one. Just in case, I reduced the CO2 to previous levels, I may have overdone it a little as all plants have bubbles which is not normally the case in my tank. At the same time, I also added a little less baking soda, so maybe I pushed the limit. But, wouldn't he be up and gasping for air if that would be the case?

Attached Image:

Not so good

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

When I had my CO2 issue my fish were swimming circles and doing weird flips and rolls. All were breathing really hard. I think they were past the point of being able to gasp at the top.

How is he doing today? I hope he will be fine!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Yeah, normally they gasp at the surface. Maybe he's just in the "doghouse" for eating the eggs/fry. I hope he's doing better for you soon.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks guys,

I have not seen him today yet as I am leaving for work when it is still total darkness in my basement.

He kept his position until lights out last night, but it sure does not look good. I expect him to go to fish heaven, unfortunately

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well,

As of last night, the male Apisto was still alive. When I finally got home from work (another 12 hour workday he was in the same spot than the night before (as seen in picture above). After I fed the tank he moved once around the right hill, slowly with taking breaks to sit down on the substrate. I can see white very thin poop hanging on him (about 1.5 inches long), a very bad sign

My current thoughts are concerned with either waiting it out until he cannot move anymore or with releasing him from his misery.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You aren't going to try to isolate and medicate him? May be internal parasites or something though, usually tough to treat. Sorry LF .

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Why not break out the Metro and see if you can get him better? You can treat the water of the main tank directly, it won't hurt the other apisto females.

Sorry LF, fishy troubles are no good

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks guys,

Last thing I have heard is that if you see the signs (and I think for sure I do now) then it is too late anyway.

On the other hand, I might be able to safe the females (which don't show any signs yet) if I used the meds.

Decisions, decisions, decisions

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Update on the Flash?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I haven't checked in for a few days, as I've been really busy with work. I'm sorry to hear your male may be sick - just let me say I know what you are going through. I hear metro is easier to get a hold of in the US, so why not try it. I agree with the comments that internal parasites are hard to treat - I tried several times without success, but I have read of others who have treated successfully.

Let us know how things are going.

Cheers
TW

Thanks for the input

Last night, the behavior of the male has been the same as it was the two nights before, mostly sitting still on the substrate somewhere around the right hill. The females, as usual, were swimming around.

The one difference I saw was that he had his normal body color, a medium gray with the few horizontal stripes. The two days before he was all light gray only. I thought it was a good sign first, but then concluded that this must be the "untainted" coloration of the fish and all other shades are "handmade" to show either aggression, or affection, or to blend in.

I have metro at home, I bought it once about a year ago for my pearls in the QT when one died, but I never used it. I am not much of a medicator though and given that there may be a small chance only for him (if he has parasites) to survive I am still struggeling with a decision if I should use it or not.

Ingo

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IMO LF, it may not be as late as you think. I've seen scrawny, emaciated, grey colored fish hovering behind the heater recover using metro - considering how safe it is for a med I don't see what you have to lose.

If he's eating, you can target him by mixing it with some frozen food, if he isn't then you can still add it to the water.

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Back in the saddle!

Hi LF, if it were me, I would try the metro. What is there to lose? If he doesn't make it anyway, you have lost nothing - but it just might help him out. You won't know unless you try. If he is still eating, NowherMan6 gives you good advice. From what I've been told, the most chance of success comes if you can get him to eat food that has been soaked in metro. If he has already given up food, then the only choice is to medicate the water.

Good luck with him.

Cheers
TW

Very valid point that you two are making there. I guess I will dose tonight.

This is the product that I have at home. Anyone dissagree with the suggested dosing on that site? I have to add it to the water column as the fish hasn't eaten in 3 days .

Ingo

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Toooooo Laaaaaate

Attached Image:

Sorry for the Graphics

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Sorry LF. Hopefully the females will still do well until you can find a replacement male.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Oh, I'm so sorry LF. He was such a gorgeous fish & I know how sad it is when this happens. I hope your girls will be ok.

BTW, I'm amazed - you get metro from seachem? Over here you have to get a prescription & not many vets are willing to give a script for fish, as they say they don't know too much about them. I found one eventually that would write a script, but I got the tablet form. I think it also comes in liquid - which I think would have been better.

Anyway, once again I'm sorry for your loss.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Matty and Robyn,

I will see how this all progresses. My thoughts now are if I should treat the tank anyway, not knowing 100% for sure what killed the fish, but all indications are for parasites.

If it was a given that the male had to go then at least he could have done so before he ate all the fry

The females seem still ok and very active, but their behavior has completely changes. They are now after each other and show to each other all the time, barely finding time in between to feed.

Yeah Robyn, the metro can be bought here from online vendors, in case someone cares - I got mine from "That Fish Place". The 100g tube costs over $50 plus shipping.

Matty, I will have to see what I will do next with regards to a male. Should I wait a while and then take action? Should I take action now and have the LFS order me one (which can take up to 4 weeks)? Should I just give up on them as so far they have caused quite a string of issues (remember my all male club?)? I don't know...

Ingo

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Well, I know you are not one that likes to medicate - but I think in your circumstances, I would try to get them to eat some metro soaked food, as a precaution. I have been told by several people, that by the time these apistos show symptoms, it is already too late. So treating them now may give you an advantage.

As a contradiction to what I say above, a part of me believes that once the parasite sickness has taken hold, it is a hard disease to beat, no matter even if you medicate. But the medication at least gives a chance of cure, whereas not treating a sick fish can be no help. If we get cancer which may be terminal, we still go through the treatment, hopeful of a cure. I think more chance of success if treatment is given early - before symptoms.

One LFS over here (he was talking about discus - also sensitive fish) said he runs a UV sterilizer, plus on a regular basis (maybe every month - can't recall exactly what he said) he feeds them a metro soaked meal, as a precaution. If metro was easy to get here, I would do the same with any new apisto I buy. He apparently has a chemist friend, who gives it to him on the sly. I just don't understand why in the US you can buy it on-line (not even from a chemist) but we need a prescription. Grrrr

About getting another male. At least you have a QT to house him in, while you watch how things go with your girls. These parasites seem to take a long long time to show up though - you had him for quite a while before you saw a problem - how long was it? So what I am trying to say is, as the girls weren't with the male for all that long, if he did pass anything along, it might take a good while for it to show up. Therefore, I wouldn't add the male to that tank for at least 6 weeks, probably longer. What do you think Matty - even longer. If you saw a nice male, you could always leave him in QT for a longer than usual stint - but then, what to do with him if something happens to your girls?

Ah, it is not an easy decision. Probably, if I saw an especially nice male that I couldn't resist, I'd do the QT thing & just wait even a couple of months to join them, but I probably wouldn't actively look for a male. I'd let time pass first.

Cheers
TW

RIP pretty fishy

><>

Thanks Ladies

Yeah, the last thing I want right now is to get into a cycle of replacing fish all the time, buying a male now, then have the females die and buy new ones, then the male again ... and so forth.

BTW, Bensaf once said that he treats his tank (or used to) for parasites on a (I believe) 6 months interval as a precautionary measure.

Ingo

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That's exactly what I was meaning to say, in my long winded waffle.

1. That treating apistos as a precaution with metro for internal parasites could be a good option. If I had easy access to metro, that's what I'd do

2. That you don't want a nice new male in QT, only to have problems with the females in the Breeder.

Cheers
TW

So sorry LF. He's beautiful, even in that state.

As I said, treat the tank, and then treat the new guy whenever he comes around. It sounds like he only gave you a few days notice before he went. If you see any of the first signs, like a concave tummy or greying and darkening of color, it's time to treat.

Good luck with the catfights

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Back in the saddle!

Good luck with the catfights

You know, all last night that was what the girls were doing . One standoff followed the other.

Good that you mentioned the signs that I should keep an eye open for. Not because I didn't know them, but because this is the one and only reason why I hesitated to med the tank. Neither did my male have a concave tummy nor did he darken (actually he got lighter in color). The lack of these signs makes me wonder if parasites are actually the reason for his demise.

Just hypothetically: given that cichlids from SA are not doing too well in high N, could it be that his exposure to values of maybe up to 40ppm over an extended period was the reason for his death? The females are in the tank maybe a little over half the time that he was in it. How does a fish behave when dying of too much N over time (vs extreme overdose of N at once)?

Ingo

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I don't know if too much N will kill the fish directly. When my Rams started showing signs of Hole in the Head, I found plenty of info online pointing to poor water quality. When I checked my N it was way high (Bright Red! ).

From what I read it is more of contributing factor. If SA cichlids don't like high N in the water, it probably puts their bodies under stress. This leads to secondary infections of stuff that may have been dormant in the fish.

In the case of my Rams the male died within a couple days of showing symptoms. When I got wise to the High N I began doing 50% water changes which hold my N at about 15 ppm. The female was able to last for about 2 weeks before she passed. They both went in the tank at the same.

Just a thought.


Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Thanks Rick for sharing your thoughts, and I believe that they at least partially line up with my thinking.

I may have to add a little less N to the tank as its values seem way to high. I know the test kits are not accurate, but even if I lower the N I would still be above the 20ppm mark (by far).

On the Med Frontier: I used the metro last night and have one question. It says in the instructions that I should repeat every 2 days until the symptoms go away. Well, I have no symptoms, so how often do you think I should repeat? My thoughts are to do it at least one more time tomorrow after the water change.

Ingo

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I think your nitrates would need to be around 80ppm to cause serious enough problems to kill a fish in a short period of time(less than a couple years). Most Nittrate problems happen slowly. I think anything over 20ppm starts to get a bit stressful for mildly sensitive fish, personally. That's why I don't dose up to EI levels and am labelled a critical fertilator. I like to keep nitrates hovering around 10ppm.

As far as the meds. I'm no fish doctor. I don't usually medicate fish and try to stay out of medication discussions(which is hard when you work at an LFS). But I also know that dosing for short periods of time does nobody any good. I'd repeat at least once or twice, since you decided to go with it. And I'm not blaming you for doing so, not medicating is just something I do out of ignorance of disease and treatment.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

Thanks for the input. I am usually with you on the "non-med" team as I treat only what I can identify, and that has been Ich. My thoughts here were that I either could just wait and see how the girls will be doing or to dose meds for the most likely cause of death of the male. In the end, my social contience won as I just cannot handle that, if they should have become sick in the future, I could have done something about it.

The N discussion is only to make sure that I am not thinking up some illness when the culprit may be much more obvious (as in overferting).

Ingo

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I agree with Matty, repeat at least once - maybe a third. Are you treating the tank, or dosing their food?

I hope all goes well for them.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

I am treating the tank. I put some thought into medicating the food but then decided against it. Reason: the Otos. If it is a parasite and if it would be able to spread to the Otos then treating the food would not help them as they don't eat flakes and I don't give them any other form of food then what grows naturally in the tank.

Ingo

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Good point LF. The only thing is that for some reason, my otos never were affected by whatever killed off both sets of apistos. Whatever it was, they seem to be immune. There were 2 in each tank & I can still account for all - who have nice fat bellys.

Good luck with the girls. Keep us posted.

Cheers
TW

hey LF,

sorry to hear about the little fella - he was gorgeous and you looked after him very well.

give it a week, and then just go and get a new boy! just do it! you know you want to!!

i'm just in the process of deciding on another species to join my cacs in my 6 foot tank....

justin

Thanks Robyn and Justin

I will wait a little longer than just a week, although the constant bickering between the girls may make me change my mind soon

Weekly Tank Update - Week 20

The sole highlight of this week was a negative one, the death of my male Apisto. What a bummer, but I will move on.

Let's use this chance of a round weekly update to reflect on the tank in 5 week intervals. Here is the tank in week 1 (meaning one week after setup) after setup:

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Week 1

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Aready by week 5, all the fast growers had been replaced with a more permanent plant selection, although only some of the plants are actually still in the tank today. Here you see the whole surface covered with Micro Swords:

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Week 5

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Within the next 5 weeks, the tank had not seen many changes, mostly the wood had been moved around a little as it took me quite a while to figure out how to affix individual branches so they don't fall over all the time while doing a water change:

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Week 10

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By week 15, the actual scaping process that leads to today's setup was well under way. As you can see, the bolbitis, more anubias, various blyxas, and some pearl grass are already in place.

The wood by then also had found its more permanent position.

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Week 15

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And here is the full tank now after yesterday's water change and a few minor trimmings and replantings. It appears as if the Pearl Grass had not grown too much, but this is because I cut it back. Also, I don't think the Hygro will be able to stay for much longer as it begins to grow too tall:

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Tank Last Night

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Here is a closer look at the Pearl Grass before I trimmed it yesterday. Usually, I pull out the entire plant and the cut off the bottom and replant the top. But once in a while, like yesterday, I cut off individual tops and leave the rest of the plant in the tank. This is rather time consuming, but I wanted to use the tops somewhere else while still having enough left of this group.

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Pearl Grass Before Trim

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Here is the backside of the tank, and that is where you can see what I did with the Pearl Grass trimmings. I am still working on the removal of the micro sword, and little by little I will get rid of it all. This time, the left most part had been removed:

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Back View

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Here is a closer look at the new pearl grass group, with Oto and Apisto, and snails and what not . As you can see, the plants are rather short and will take a while to fill in nicely.

Pearl Grass grows fast enough to allow trimming and re-propagation on a rather frequent base, but not too fast to become a pain in the neck. Nice!

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New Pearl Grass Group

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Also from the backview, here is a closer look at the bolbitis. I think it is setteling in nicely by now and I see various new shoots. I only rarely now have to trim away an older shoot that gets some staghorn algae on it, nothing compared to the issues I had with the plant a few weeks back.

Also, the crypts to the right are setteling in nicely.

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Bolbitis and Crypts

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The last two shots are about the widows of the tank, the Apistos. They both seem to be fine and eat ok. They have been eating better though when the male was around, but it is not a lack of interest why they don't eat, it is the constant stalking of each other that distracts them too much.

Here is one peeking out from the right hill:

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One Apisto

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Last but not least, here is the other one in the open. I treated the tank with metro again after yesterday's water change and I will spend the next day and a half thinking if I should treat one more time.

That's it for this tank and this update, I hope you like to time travel, have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Other Female

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This tank is really coming along nicely LF, I can't wait to see how it looks 3 months down the road, I think it'll be a stunner.

That pearl grass is one of the few plants that truely respond well to trimming their tops. The one thing I'm really enjoying about my tank right now is how nice a carpet that stuff makes by just hacking off the tops every couple weeks. Cool plant.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi LF,
In looking at your logs, and your comments about algae,
I'm having a thought or two on the causes/cures for the
problem.

We all know that algae is an opportunistic critter. By
that I mean that if it finds a niche, it takes advantage
of that niche and fills it. Now that niche can be an
over abundance of some element, say iron, or nitrogen,
or it can be a lack of some element as well. Or, it can
simply be the lack of a competitor (too few plants).

In your cases, you are adding fertilizer regularly, and
changing water regularly. But, in looking at the plants
in your pictures, specifically the close up ones of your
foreground, carpet, plants, I'm wondering about
the circulation between the leaves, and down near the
substrate. The same thought with the mosses on the drift
wood. Despite being up in the water column, they have
grown so thick, I wonder about the circulation through
the individual leaves.

I'm beginning to think that they might be
"nutrient sumps."
Places where the lack of circulation could
cause concentrations of nutrients and thus, the
growth of algae.

Just a thought. It seems to happen whenever the carpet
plant becomes too thick. Then, when it becomes unsightly,
we tear out the carpet plant and a few weeks later the
algae is back under control, or gone.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hi LF

Enjoyed watching the 5 week transition snapshots of the tank. Thanks for sharing that.

Don't know whether I should say this LF, or not. But I will & ask you to remember what an amateur I am with apistos, put that together with being being a worrier after my recents deaths and then add a grain of salt before you even start to take any notice of me. I spend a fair bit of time looking at the belly shape of my dwarfs now & I looked closely at your 2nd apisto female. When I trace along the underside of her belly from her anal fin, to me she has an ever so slight bump where her anus is. It is bearly there and is probably nothing at all - just the angle of the shot & what not. But I mention it only so that you can watch what is happening there. I's sure she is fine & I hesitated to mention, as I didn't wanted to worry you for no reason. Matty didn't mention it, and he would have spotted it if it were a problem.

Apart from that, you have a pair of really nice looking girls there.

Cheers
TW

Thanks all for the input

Matty - yeah, I hope that the tank will just keep on improving. I am glad that it gives me so little trouble and that I am able to change little bits here and there without upsetting the whole system.

Frank - I assume you are talking more about My 29G Tank, right? Your pointers are for sure correct, but I guess my issues there are related more to none or very irregular fertilization as this used to work in the past with gravel and laterite and now just doesn't fly anymore with Eco. This stuff is too good to be neglected

Robyn - good point, and ever since you described the symptoms on your Apistos I am keeping an eye open for similar issues on mine. I have to say that I have not noticed anything on the females in this tank until you pointed it out (and it really seems strange in the picture), but I guess the fact that I treat the tank now should help.

Thanks to all yet once again,

Ingo

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hey ingo - i just want to point out (because i'm a glass half-full kinda guy) that there is a lot more good going on with that second female than bad - clear eyes, great colouring, open, clean finnage, good red colouring of the flesh visible near the gills (highly oxygenated). i hardly think you need worry about that bump - it could be that she's hungry, has just aborted eggs, or a dozen other benign problems.

no disrespect to robyn, but i think when we worry TOO much about our babies, and treat them with kid-gloves, we actually have more troubles....

justin

Thanks Justin,

You know, I was wondering myself how the females will fare now with regards to egg production. They must have gotten used to the idea that having eggs is ok, given that the male was present.

Ingo

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Weekly Tank Update - Week 21

Not much has happened during this week, I am still debating with myself when and if I should get another male Apisto. I treated the tank with Metro 3 times, I think that should be enough.

Here is the tank before the water change:

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Just Before Water Change

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And here is the tank after the water change. As you may notice, the hygro is still there but I trimmed it down a little (cut off the bottom). I just did not have any other plant that I could place there.

Do you have an idea what I could use in its place?

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After Water Change

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Here is the tank straight from the back. I removed some more of the micro swords on the left (added them to the 20G) and added some more Pearl Grass:

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Back View

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And here is, for the fun of it and to interest Matty in my tank, the back view in an angle.

You can see how crowded the way right side is, with the hygro being blown by the current over the micro sword group.

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Back Angle

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And here is another closer look at the Bolbitis. As you may notice, there are quite a few bubbles under the leaves. These are obviously from the water change, but during the week in the evenings I have even more bubbles there as well. Unfortunately, I think they come from the CO2 that is being blown throughout the tank and collects there.

Anyway, that's it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

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OK,

I saw them already last week in the LFS, but they are labled Double Red. So this afternoon I went back and asked, and without me giving a hint I was informed that they are Orange (I guess Flash).

Should I treat the tank with Metro?????

Here is the male

Attached Image:

Male Apisto

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And here is the female. Should I worry about having 3 females now? I could not resist. But that's it, all better goes well.

That's it for right now, more later.

Ingo

Attached Image:

Female Apisto

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Here is the last shot of the couple in the bag. As you may notice, she has lost all yellow and now has an almost white base coloration. I am sure that once she gets settled the color will come back.

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Apisto Couple

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Please Look At Previous Page For Weekly Tank Update

And here is a shot of her after she has been released into the QT. She was exploring the tank and the smaller male Platy actually swims onto her side once in a while and seems to make mating attempts

Attached Image:

Female I

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And here she is from the side. I hope that the experts amongst you (Justin ? ) will ok her as healthy. She seemed not shy in the tank at the LFS and so far she is not shy in this tank either. But, she is smaller than the two in the 40G. Should I worry about her as the third female in that tank?

Attached Image:

Female II

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And here is a first look of the male after release. I have to say that now his fin coloration seems more red than it did at the LFS and in the bag. Maybe it is a double red after all?

Attached Image:

Male I

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Last shot of tonight, male from the side. Again, could the experts please tell me if they think the fish is ok?

And one more time:

Should I treat the tank with Metro???

That's it for now,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male II

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Ingo you dog! Way to resist the urge