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  L# LITTLE_FISH 40G Breeder Log
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SubscribeLITTLE_FISH 40G Breeder Log
LITTLE_FISH
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Then it was time to catch the (fe)males for the return to the LFS. I thought it would be pretty hard to get them, in particular the very shy double-orange. But, after removing the light and the glass top from the tank it was almost a breeze and took me maybe one minute to catch them both, with the above mentioned one being one of the easiest fish I ever caught.

Here they are:

Attached Image:

Bagged Up



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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 03:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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A last close-up of the male Triple-Red, the first one to be re-classified as being male. As such, I guess he cannot be really called Triple-Red as there is no red in his fins what-so-ever.

Good bye, my friend

Attached Image:

Good Bye TR



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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 03:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And here is the Double-Orange, probably looking his most male ever in any shots I have taken of him (assuming it was a her). This one took a while before showing clearer signs of manhood.

One day, he actually could be a very handsome Double-Orange.

Good buy, my friend

Attached Image:

Good Bye, DO



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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 03:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Once I had them in the store, even Tom, the main freshwater guy, could see that they were male, and I got my store credit without any problems. I hope he will find them nice homes.

And here is the one that is awaiting the arrival of his two wives, although hey for sure will go into the QT for a while first.

Thanks, and now its time for bed,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male DO, remaining in Tank



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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 03:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Yeah, mine are much more feminine. I'm not sure if I should be bragging about that though. No doubt anymore what those two were. It can happen, I guess. It just kills me that 2 pair were that way.

LF, your bagging skillzzz are definitely lacking. Look how saggy those are. They look like a pair of 70 year old....well you get the idea. At least you bagged them with a proper amount of air. Most fish we get come in either tupperware, or a clozed ziplock full of water and no air.

And you are very welcome Ingo, I hate to see a fellow aquarium enthusiast in trouble





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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 05:31Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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I have to say that DO male looks particularly cranky to be kicked out of the tank & into the plastic bag .

The male that you've chosen to keep has particularly beautiful coloured fins. Good choice.

Looking forward to seeing the new arrivals.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 08:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Matty,

Funny thing about the two pairs that I got with all of them being male: they came from 2 different wholesalers. Yeah, my bagging skills are lacking, mostly because I am too hesitant to give the bag a good twist and stuff when closing off the top. I never want to give the fish more inconvenience than needed, and given that the LFS is about 10 min away they had way more air than needed anyway.

Robyn,

Yeah, I have never seen the bagged DO spread its fins like that in the tank, probably because he would have provoked the other two quite a bit by doing so.
I don't think I even had to spend one second on deciding which one to keep, it was natural to me to keep the dominant one. I don't want to end up with a male that might spend his days hiding in a film canister instead of showing off his finnage .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 10:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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a male that might spend his days hiding in a film canister instead of showing off his finnage


Aggggh, that's exactly what my wimp is doing, hiding from his wife.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 13:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Aggggh, that's exactly what my wimp is doing, hiding from his wife.
Gee - I wonder why I was writing this in the first place? Hm, maybe it had to do with the photo in your log

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 13:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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I knew exactly why you wrote that, as soon as I read it

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 14:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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8/31/2006 5:41:00 AM ARRIVAL SCAN PARSIPPANY, NJ US

Uh, I guess it will be at my house soon then
How long would you guys think the fish are good in the bag?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 14:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Have you taught your wife how to acclimatise. I am able to trust my daughter that she knows how to do this. She knows the drill - lights out, float the bag & then very, very gradual small additions of tank water to the bag over a period of at least an hour or more. Release the fish & leave the lights out to reduce stress while new fish settles.

Could you explain all this to your wife?

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 14:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Male DO, remaining in Tank

Looks like he's saying "Where are the women, give me women, lots and lots of women"



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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 15:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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How long would you guys think the fish are good in the bag?


I can only judge by looking at them in the bag. If they look bad, it's a quick acclimation and a dump into the tank. Sometimes fish can last days and days in the bag. Sometimes much less. I was pretty careful with the bagging for your fish, with oxygen and what not, so I would think they'd be ok. They were guaranteed to arrive right about now(10:30am).

To really answer your question, at work they double bagged a feeder goldfish in a bag like those in your pics and left it in the store to see how long it would last. It was a little bet between the management. At two weeks the thing was still alive and let back into the tank, or maybe it was fed to an oscar or something.



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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 16:17Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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It was a little bet between the management. At two weeks the thing was still alive and let back into the tank, or maybe it was fed to an oscar or something.

Goldfish get no respect! Matty have you ever ad those bags that the o2 flows thru?

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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 16:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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They were guaranteed to arrive right about now(10:30am).
Grrrr, the wife is out right now, I hope they did not take the package back with them.

I will keep you posted.

Tetratech - yeah, I am sure the male will be happy once he gets his girls, in about 2 weeks or so.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 16:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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No, we've never had those "breathable" bags. The regular old plastic jobbies seem to get the job done well enough for business I guess. The most important time to use it would be shipping, and we don't get much of a say in what bags we get the fish in. So I don't think the store would spend the extra money(unfortunately) to get the breathable bags for the people who are driving the fish to their house down the street. I would like to try some of those out though. Anybody else ever tried them out?



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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 17:08Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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OMG


THE RECEIVER WAS UNAVAILABLE TO SIGN ON THE 1ST DELIVERY ATTEMPT. A 2ND DELIVERY ATTEMPT WILL BE MADE


I cannot believe they didn't simply leave the package at the house

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 18:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I believe the way it works is, on overnight deliveries, if it's not specified that the package should be left at the door they won't leave it.

Will the next delivery attempt be made today or tomorrow? Was it shipped Fedex? You may be able to get them to hold it for you at a FedEx location if you call them up, or you may be able to get them to contact the driver and have him/ her leave it at the door if another attempt will be made today.

If they're not going to try again until tomorrow, i would call them and have them re-route the box to your work office for tomorrow. That way you can at least check them out, make sure they're OK, open the bag if necessary and re-tie it with more air etc. I know those port authority bus rides are killer but it may be worth it for the fishies...


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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 18:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Best bet would be to call them and see if you can get a hold of the package today. Either having it re dropped at your house or see if you can pick it up from the wearhouse.

One of my co-workers used to work for Fedex and he said it didn't matter what the package said on it, they were all treated with the same handling. You can guess how that is.

Best wishes!

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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 19:31Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I called the UPS number and found out - from a machine - that the 2nd delivery attempt would be made tomorrow

I then talked to an operator and we concluded that he will call me back within an hour to let me know if they can attempt a second delivery today. If not, if - and when - I would be able to pick them up at a UPS Center, about at least 40min away from my house, given that it is not rush hour.

Not good,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 19:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH


The emotions are going down and up, that creates a tremendous stress on my, I am so hyped up.

UPS tried to call the driver but he was out at lunch so they left him a message. Shortly after that, our regular UPS guy shows up at our house with a delivery and, after talking to my wife, tells her that the fish are on the truck of his bosses van a few blocks away. He brought them in just before 3PM.

Now they are in the hands of the wife, who has never acclimated a fish in her life. I gave her instructions last night, and I guided her over the phone through the process of putting the bag into the tank, now she is on her own. But I have faith.

Oh - obvioulsy, both are still alive, that is all I know about their condition right now.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 21:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Thats great LF! I am very happy for you. I am sure your wife will take good care of them. I know I could trust my wife with such things too!

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NowherMan6
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Good to hear LF. I trust you didn't give her drip method instructions, did you?


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 21:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No, I told her to add one small measuring cup every 7 min, 5 times, and then another 5 times the double load.

That should do. The critical part will be her having to fish them out of the bag without smushing them or dropping them on the floor.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 21:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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I believe the way it works is, on overnight deliveries, if it's not specified that the package should be left at the door they won't leave it.


I'm sorry about this Ingo, I thought it was the other way around, that I had to specify that a signature was necessary. At least that's the way it's worked with me before. I suppose I should've said that it was to be delivered by 10:30 too. I'm not very good at these things, but I hope they are doing well.



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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 21:28Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Matty no problem, you did your best and better than I would have done

Anyway:



I decided on a different acclimatization plan. Instead of doubling the dosage half way through I decided to have the wife add the single dosage until I came home. This way she didn't have to fish them out of the bag. That means that they have been acclimated for over 2 hours. Well I released them, and in addition I removed the only adult male platy from the tank (into the 29) as he is rather mean to new entries and Matty's Apistos are smaller than the ones that were in there before. Next I turned on the light.

Just a few minutes later they came out from hiding (but not for too long) and one can already see that one of them will be the female boss (larger). But, without a doubt, they are females (or very very good acting males ).

Later, they came back out and started to eat "substrate", or whatever invisible food they find in it.

Here is the boss-female

Attached Image:

Boss Female



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Post InfoPosted 01-Sep-2006 00:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And here is a picture of the other female. Besides being a little smaller she also looks a little more beat up from the trip, but not so bad that I worry about her.

Now I have to make sure that they get good and enough food so they put on their party dress.

Attached Image:

Other Female



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Post InfoPosted 01-Sep-2006 00:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Hey, those look familiar


*let's out sigh of relief* Glad they got there safe and sound. I think it's a good thing you put the male into the 40. He probably would have been a little too rough on the new girls, as I said they are a bit on the smaller side, but were good and healthy(when they left at least). The second smaller one looks to have gotten a bit skinny, and her caudal fins a bit beat up. I guess that's manageable though. The first female looks pretty good though. Hope it's all smooth sailing from here/:'



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Post InfoPosted 01-Sep-2006 00:22Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Yay, Yipee, Yahoo for the safe arrival. They look sooo much more like females. I never thought your others did, right from the start. You really wonder how the breeders made such a mistake twice, when even a know nothing like me thinks they see a problem.

The girls may not put on their party dress until they are with the male. My triple red doesn't seem to have a breeding dress - she's just yellow all the time. But the troublesome twosome, I had them separated for a time when there was agression. During separation - no party dress at all. But within 30 mins of re-joining the male, there she was, dressed up to hilt.

Anyway, now you can relax and have fun.

Plus a big cheer for a first time acclimatisation by your wife. I knew she could do it. /:'

Cheers
TW
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tetratech
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LF,

Congrats! on the safe arrival of your new fish.
Listen, I'm not trying to stir up anything, but your tellimg me one of these fish is a female agassizi and the other a cac.

Attached Image:


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Post InfoPosted 01-Sep-2006 02:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Well what can you say, most apisto females look very similar. Probably wouldn't be able to tell at all until they are adults, and even then it's pretty difficult. Agassizi females will have shorter dorsal fins and generally the only markings in casual dress is the eye stripe and a dot in the middle of the body. Cac females have a tiny bit of the dorsal spike in them and pretty much always have a full dark stripe across the body. Her caudal fin might be a bit flatter as well, because male cacs have a lyrate caudal fin, while agassizis have a lanceolate caudal fin.

I dunno if that helps at all.



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Post InfoPosted 01-Sep-2006 05:33Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks all for the input.

For the rest of last evening the fishies were busy finding food in the tank, in particular the younger one (but also the other oneZ) did not quite understand that the flakes that are raining down are food. Same happened to my previous Apistos when they were new in the tank, so I don't worry about it.

About the agassizi female: tetratech, I don't think that yours is a cac (but hey, I had 2 males for 4 weeks and thought they were females ). Your picture seems to match them closely, but this is only because your fish swims in an angle to the camera and as such appears shorter than she is. I believe to remember that she is more elongated than cacs. And I have seen female agassizi pictures where there is a full horizontal stripe and not only a black dot (I also think I have seen this in person in the LFS).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Sep-2006 13:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by jase101
hi ingo,
well, i hate to say i told you so...hehehe!! i felt like such a prat when i said they looked like males, but it turns out alright in the end! those two new fish both look like lovely little ladies to me! i'm sure you'll have little broods in no time at all once you reintroduce yr male. best of luck,

justin

ps - as regards the agassizi female above, i've never seen a female cac's body stripe extend in front of the eye, whereas i'm pretty sure this is standard in the agassizi - but hell, the females all do look rather similar.
Post InfoPosted 02-Sep-2006 07:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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i hate to say i told you so...hehehe!!
And right you were, thanks for bringing it up at that time as that was the trigger for the recent events.

On the Apisto frontier, not much new to report except that the smaller female did something I have not seen before in a fish. She was sitting on the substrate and wiggled her back half from side to side, not just the way back like they would do when maintaining position in a current. It looked like she is spreading out eggs, but that would be very unlikely. Otherwise, she is fine.

Here are both of them in a shot from last night:

Attached Image:

Females



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Post InfoPosted 02-Sep-2006 14:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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i've never seen a female cac's body stripe extend in front of the eye, whereas i'm pretty sure this is standard in the agassizi

Good catch jase. I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. It's amazing how they look similiar with the black on the front of the dorsal and then the orange, etc...

The look good LF

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LITTLE_FISH
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Yeah,

Justin for sure seems to know his Apistos, he easily puts my sense for detail to shame

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-Sep-2006 14:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 12

The tank has seen a few changes during the past week, mostly with the addition of the 16 new Anubias Nana. The initial plan was to make their position more permanent this weekend as I just stuck them in the tank during the week when they arrived, but a lack of time, motivation, and inspiration left me with them as they were before the water change. In order to make them more permanent a few other things in the tank would have to change as well, and I know that process would take me a few hours to complete.

The other change was the addition of the male Apisto so he is not molesting my new females that I received kindly from Matty.

Here is the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Last Week



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Post InfoPosted 03-Sep-2006 12:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And here is the tank now this weekend.

The additional changes I am talking about include probably both wood groups as I am still not too happy about how fragile these arrangements are. Basically, ever water change moves some branches around and I am constantly worried to smush one of the Otos underneath. Also, cleaning the glass is pretty hard as my hand touches the branches and they fall over or at least get pushed out of place.

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Tank Now



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The one plant that is rather a dissapointment in this tank is the Micro Sword. I think it would look better in my 125G if it would be able to spread in gravel substrate as well as it does in this tank (btw, not the fasted spreader, so far).

Here is a look at the center section of the tank. As you may see, the swords are rather untidy and don't do much to the look. I think I will start off with emptying out the most center part of it, all the way from front to back. This will at least help to promote the idea of hills a little more than the current setup does.

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Swords In Center



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On a positive note, my Anubias from the first installment are getting their first flowers that were completely grown in my tank (I had some before, but they were inherited from the grower).

Here is the stage a few days before opening:

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Nana Flower To Be



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Now a few pictures as a tribute to Matty and the very nice fishies he provided me with.

First off, the weaker female, although I begin to see that she is not too intimidated by the other one. Her caudal fin is still a little beaten up, but this has so far never been an issue for any of my fishies, most of them were a little "under the weather" when they arrived.

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Female Orange Flash



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And here is a shot of the other female, she has been in excellent shape when she arrived this week. I have rarely had a fish with so little damage to fins, no matter what species:

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Other Female



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Here is another look at her, given that I usually take most of my pictures when the full side of the fish is visible. She is a little more out in the open than the other one, but both of them are not constant hiders either:

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Female



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And here is probably the best shot I got of her so far, but hopefully I will have many more chances to get even better ones.

Now, having these fish at hand, I cannot believe that I have been unable to identify the other ones as males. It is so obvious now. Nevertheless, I hope my two males (pseudo females) will find nice homes.

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Good Posing



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
View pictures and comments on previous page as well, please.

Here is the last one of the female shots, I promise (at least for this session )

The interaction between the females is way more friendly than the one between the males was. Yes, they also try to clear the rankings, but on a much less aggressive scale. Mostly, a slap with the caudal fin can be seen, occasionally a little nudge with the mouth to the side. But more often than not the stronger one is following the weaker one at a slow pace, no chasing per se.

And one can also observe them swimming together once in a while, like here:

Attached Image:

2 Females



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Lastly, here is the man that awaits their arrival in this tank. He must be very lonely these days as the Otos don't really care about him and as he had spent the previous almost 4 weeks fending off the other two males in the QT.

He finally understood the feeding in this tank. He had a little problem aiming for the food on the surface with all the duck weed and the rather fast flow of the water. I turned down the filter output for the time being.

Attached Image:

Male



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LF,
That male looks like it's fins are on fire. Really a stunner.

It's funny in fish the male is usually the beauty and the female is well "eh"

My Scapes
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
tetratech,

Yeah, I like him very much, and he is not even fully grown yet. He should grow at least one more inch. Thanks for the compliment.

And about the fish male being the beauty, well that is the same here, I am just unbelievably handsome

Ingo


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I noticed that the females at times both swim together & I hope that bodes well for a peaceful tank when all 3 are joined.

I have not seem many male orange flashes, but of those I have, yours is the prettiest by far.

Enjoy.

Cheers
TW
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have not seem many male orange flashes, but of those I have, yours is the prettiest by far.
I haven't seen many of them either, honestly I didn't even know they exist until I went to the LFS to get a replacement for the dead male Triple-Red.

He looks in particular like being on fire in this shot because the fins are slightly out of focus, that makes them less detailed.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
I haven't seen many, but none seem to have the two colour tones of yours. They all seem just a solid orange - which doesn't look as pretty as the two tone of yours.

Cheers
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I hear you Robin,

When I got this fish his fins were all orange as well. Now, I have no idea why they turned orange-yellow when they grew. It may be normal, it may have something to do with his diet, or maybe the lack of females is responsible.

Ingo


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That's interesting that it changed. Maybe all orange is for the younger males & as they mature they get the extra colour???

Cheers
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Yeah Robyn, that may be the case as well.

Here is again a shot of the fish from around August 1.

As you can see, all orange, no yellow on the outside

Attached Image:

All Orange



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Ok,

I don't have much time, I just thought that I share 2 pictures with you (and one in the 125G log).

I know you are all jealous of my Anubias flowers, so here is one more

With Air Bubble:

Attached Image:

Nana Flower



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And:

Who knows why Otos seem to like to hang out on or near the heater? Are they telling me it is too cold in my tank?

Here are 5 of my 6 Otos:

Have fun,

Ingo

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Cold Otos



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Ooo I think that bubble pic is better than mine. The flower also gives that stand alone kind of look. Nice. Try not to cheap out on the electric bills LF. Keep your darn otos warm enough...turn the heater on. Those are nice healthy(fat) looking otos.



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Yeah Matty, I will try to keep them warm

I got really lucky (so far) with the Otos. I bought them when they were really young and just arrived at the LFS (maybe the day before). I risked a high mortality rate, but haven't lost one yet.

Thanks for the compliment on the Nana picture

News on the female Apistos: They seem to have settled into the QT by now as the larger female is beginning to chase the smaller one around more than before. Still not to the point of what the boss male did to the sub male.

Ingo


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Nice picture of your Otos. I think it is something they have picked up through the years of being in LFS's. Most places dont have the cover for them to hang out on in the storage tanks so the heater is pretty much it for them. They seem to do the same thing in my tank a lot too!

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Wings,

That is actually an interesting point. Although I have never researched it, I was under the impression that Otos are all wild caught. Somehow I thought they were hard to breed in captivity.

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Everything that I have read at this point says that they are hard to breed outside the wild. I guess I ment to say more on the lines of after being kept in storage tanks for some time(whole salers to LFS) they have picked up on heaters being some of the only things to hang out on in the tank.

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Well,

It is Friday, around 6:30 PM, and I am still at work and we just ordered dinner. This means we are going to be here for a while longer.

And - I will be back here tomorrow, so my weekly water change will have to be either late tomorrow or even on Sunday. I guess this eliminates any major change to this and the 125G tank for this weekend, there will be just not enough time .

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 13

The tank has received its water change one day later than usual as I was at work all day yesterday. As such I also could not do too much to the tank, the Anubias that I added two weeks ago are still only stuck in there.

All my tanks got some goodies this weekend (check them out please, as it seems I am the only one recently to add anything to my 20 and 29 log). This tank got a Rio 50 powerhead to perform the same task than it does in the 125G, namely shooting the CO2 after it leaves the diffuser throughout the tank. I have the filter running on a lower speed so I don't get too much current.

Here is the tank last weekend, for comparison:

Attached Image:

Week 12



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And here it is this weekend, after the powerhead addition. You can see it on the right hand side. Also, it seems that the loss of Anubias based on rhizome melting has stopped, I could not find one lose leave floating in the tank.

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This Weekend



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The only downside right now is that some of the older Anubias, added quite a few weeks back, have some dark brown spots on the leaves and the edges. I think I remember that is some form of BBA, and I hope that the better diffusion of CO2 will take care of it. This stuff is actually mostly on my glass and wood.

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Anubias



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The Narrow Leaf Java Fern is starting to show significant growth and is becoming an accent point in the tank (actually 3). I am thinking of adding more babies from my 125G to it, on the wood group at the left of the tank.

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Fern



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Now on to some fish pictures.

First in line is an Oto, one should not forget that I have 6 of them in there. I am very greatful that I haven't lost even one of these little buggers:

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Oto



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The Apisto Girls in the QT are doing fine, they have settled in there and the dominant female is clearly showing who is the boss of the two, although most of the time the other one doesn't seem to care about it.

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Don Female I



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Make sure to read the part of this weekly's update on the previous page

Robyn's bad experience makes me a little worried, but I think they look just lovely.

Here is another shot of the dominant female from a slight angle:

Attached Image:

Don Female II



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And here is the sub female, although not all that much sub like the fake female Double-Orange was.

She is a little smaller than the other one but eating nicely. Her caudal fin has also grown back and she is in good shape:

Attached Image:

Sub Female



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Last but not least,

The Boss

- I wonder when the females will be big enough to join him in the big tank? I guess I can add them in a week or two and hope that he doesn't torture them too much.

That's it,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Boss



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tetratech
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Well I've very jealous of the nice round bellies on the apisto females.

I must have missed something with the powerhead. Why do you feel you need a powerhead on a 3ft tank that has very good filtration even with the flow turned down. You actually have more gph on this tank then I have on my 72g, plus I'm running a UV on my return side. You also don't have alot of tall vertical growth to block flow

My Scapes
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Maybe to diffuse the little CO2 bubbles around a bit more?

And DANG those ladies look hot. Whoever picked them out sure know what they are doing

*pats self on back*



In reality, it's all about who's taking care of them. They must be happy with their new home.



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tetratech
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Maybe to diffuse the little CO2 bubbles around a bit more?

Well on a 3ft tank with an overpowered filter I really would be shocked if a powerhead is necessary. I really don't think it takes much current to push tiny co2 bubbles around.

My Scapes
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Everything, including your lovely ladies, looks beautiful

Cheers

Cheers
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Thanks for the compliment on the females, Matty - it sure seems like you picked a good team there

Powerhead and CO2 - yup, that is my setup in the 125 and the 40. In both cases, too much CO2 would bypass the spraybar from the diffuser and end up at the surface right away. By placing a small powerhead in the upstream of the diffuser I achieve two things:

- I redirect of the bubbles throughout the tank by blasting them sideways
- An additional hacking of larger bubbles into smaller bubbles. The very small ones that come out of the diffuser bypass the powerhead anyway as they rise so slowly that the tank current gets hold of them before they reach the powerhead.

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 14

As already stated in my 125G Log, I had a hard and tiring week at work and will only write a quick update to my logs for now. Actually, I was so tired that I attended this tank today rather than the usual Saturday-Do-Them-All routine.

In short, fishies are doing well, even the two girls in the QT. There, the boss female is beginning to give the other one a hard time and chases her around a lot. But she also shows some sign of yellowing, even without a male around.

Given that I cannot wait too much longer to put them in this tank, I took some action today to make it a little better.

First, the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Last Week



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Well, I dumped about half the Swords, not really my cup of tea these plants. With regards to runners, they were up to 8 inches long already. In short, I ripped out the right group of wood (removed one for good) and replanted that side and kept the middle open. Still, more work has to be done in the future, but the base structure will stay like this.

And here is the final product (for now):

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:



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That looks soo much better (even though it was still nice before). Just opening up the middle is a big improvement.

Cheers
TW
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LF,

Nice work. The open middle has created some depth that the tank was lacking before.

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Very nice, LF. i like this much better. Different leaf shapes interacting, some space to create depth. Very nice. It also seems like the NL ferns have grown in quite a bit more.


Back in the saddle!
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I agree, how's the other side look?



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I agree, how's the other side look?

Let's give the kid a break. He's only had time to scape one viewing side. Looks good though

My Scapes
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Let's give the kid a break. He's only had time to scape one viewing side


Sheesh, my bad. Just wondering if he did the whole tank, or just one side. Just curious. LF, you don't have to post a pic or anything. I'm always thinking how this tank is a 360 viewable tank, so I always wonder how it looks from different angles.



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Post InfoPosted 18-Sep-2006 23:38Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
goldfishgeek
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Hello Little Fish

the tank looks great. Am as ever jealous.

at the moment I have hair algae and brush algae I think its called. so its lights off and a new start.

I wish I could say something apart from "it looks nice" ! I just don't visit Fish profiles enough to keep up with the discussions.

nice to see it all though

GFGxx

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GFG,

So glad to see that you are peeking in once in a while , and don't worry, if you look at my 125G log then you will see that you are not the only one with algae worries. Actually, just look at the picture below to see some in this tank.

And the rest of you - yeah, give me a break

Actually, I had long enough of a break, back to talking about the tank. I am going to do some more minor changes this weekend and then I will show pictures from the other sides as well.

In the meantime, the bolbitis is not doing too well, maybe because it takes such a long time to sellte or something like that. Here is a shot of the tips of it, not too pleasant:

Attached Image:

Bolbitis Woes



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Post InfoPosted 22-Sep-2006 23:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Also this weekend, I am planning on adding the females. I think they have been in the QT long enough now, over 3 weeks.

Here is the "smaller" one:

Attached Image:

Apisto



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LITTLE_FISH
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And here is the larger one. She is almost indistinguishable from the other one, except for the black markings on her belly:

Attached Image:

Other Apisto



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LITTLE_FISH
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Both are at best half the size of the male, btw. Do you think it is too early to add them?

Here they are together, this is how they usually interact. The boss chases the other one when they come too close to each other.

Attached Image:

Both Apistos



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Post InfoPosted 23-Sep-2006 00:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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That's some fine staghorn algae you got there LF. Turn up that CO2!

p.s. any Amanos in this tank?


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Post InfoPosted 23-Sep-2006 00:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks NowherMan6

I don't know if the staghorn, and the onset of BBA on the same area, had anything to do with my CO2 being too low. Albeit I never measured anything in this tank ever, I would assume that my bubble disperser system is creating a high CO2 output in the tank. I will try sometime to capture the bubbles that are floating throughout the tank, in particular in the bolbitis area which sits right in the powerhead stream.

Oh, almost forgot, no - there are no Amanos in this tank. I am not certain how they would do with the Apistos, and also if they would eat potential Apisto eggs.

Ingo


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tetratech
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Here is a shot of the tips of it, not too pleasant

It's that damn Jersey Water .

Welcome back LF

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jase101
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hi little fish -

the females are absolutely ready for the male - they're not going to get any bigger. mine weigh in at a hefty 3-4 cm's or so, while the males can be up to 9cms... but we all know who wears the pants in apisto world.

justin
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Tetratech - you know what? I begin to believe your water story. I mean, one can really call this tank fish understocked, with 6 smaller Otos and one Apisto. I feed ferts all the time, have high CO2, what else could it be?

Justin - thanks for the thumbs up on the Apisto females. I will go ahead then this weekend and add them to the tank. That is going to be very interesting.

Ingo


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Tetratech - you know what? I begin to believe your water story. I mean, one can really call this tank fish understocked, with 6 smaller Otos and one Apisto. I feed ferts all the time, have high CO2, what else could it be?
.

Seems to me you did everything right. Good filter, eco-complete for extra biofiltration. low fish load. Two questions one more plausble than the other.

1. I know your probably sick of people asking this, but are you sure your co2 is way up?
2. I doubt this, but is anyone overfeeding the fishes while your away?

The only thing you did that I would have not done is when you pulled out all those weeds you did it in one shot. But I really doubt if your current algae problems are the result of that.



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Post InfoPosted 23-Sep-2006 03:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Something that would put an end to the water theory. I bought mine from this guy. Pretty good quality, very good price...can't beat it for the money. Of course I realize how silly this would be for %50 water changes on the 125, but maybe work up to 50/50 RO/tap for the 40 and see how it goes. Or start up a small tank...say 10G high light and CO2 with all reconstituted RO water and see what happens.

I'm with tetratech though. I don't think it's in the tap water. It's always possible there's trace amounts of ammonia in the tap causing algae. Something that would fly under the radar. An RO unit would remove that. But, I dunno. I've been stumped on your tanks for quite some time.



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Post InfoPosted 23-Sep-2006 03:49Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hi LF

I think you are fine to add the females. Mine were always less than half the size of the males, but could always hold their own.

Cheers
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I was thinking about your algae problem,

My 12 G hex has two annubus (no I still haven't learnt how to spell that word!!!) and they have black algae stuff too, but only on their older leaves the new bits look very good.

any how I am going to add hornwort - not permently just a s afloating bunch to see if it soaks up the extra nutrients and kills off the algae.

I don't do half the things you guys do so this might be a really lame idea but I am going to try since its a)cheap and b) simple.

Another thing a read about was breaking up the lighting period, four hours on two off fours on. I will hunt up the link.

I still think the tank looks fab tho. Next weekend is the big change over for me. ugh.

Good Luck
GFG



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Post InfoPosted 23-Sep-2006 10:52Profile Homepage Yahoo PM Edit Delete Report 
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To comment on your questions and suggestions in order of entry:

Tetratech - no, I am not 100% sure that my CO2 is up there as I have never measured anything. But, given the 2 to 3 bubbles per second that are nicely dispersed throughout the tank, I would guesstimate to have at least 30ppm in the evening hours. And nobody has ever yet fed the fish but myself, and I only feed a very few flakes (broken up) and an occasional treat to one fish in the tank, the Apisto. I believe though that the micro sword screated quite some hard to remove layer of gunk when it was initially settling in.

Matty - nothing to say about the fishies I gor from you? You can be proud of having picked such lovely girls for me . About the RO unit: there would be a little problem as I would have to up the ph in the water quite a bit as my natural ph is only about 7. I think I would not find the time to do this kind of special treatment for a tank. This is also part of the reason why none of my tanks houses any high ph loving fishies, I fail at maintaing a stable environment even when I don't have to mess with the ph.

Robyn - thanks for the thumbs up on the Apistos, I can't wait to add them. I think I will do it in the morning as then the ph should be similar to the QT where there is no CO2 injection.

GFG - say after me A-Nu-Bi-As Anubias . Yeah, these plants are the first to show major BBA signs in my tanks as well, that's because they are such slow growers. Albeit I know that Hornwort is supposed to help, it is just plain toooooo ugly for me to be an option .

Thanks to all of you,

Ingo


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tetratech
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LF,
I would truly try to get as best an estimate on your co2, before assuming anything. 2 to 3 bps per second doesn't sound bad but it might not be as high as you think. This is where the lifestyle comes in. I would slightly raise it and watch the fish during the day. When they show signs of stress late in the day bac off a bit and you've probably reached the optimum level.

You know about the degassing procedure to test co2 content. Many believe it is more acurate than the ph/kh chart. All you do is take a sample of your water preferrably in the afternoon and let it sit for 24hrs. There are forumlas out there, but if you ph raises by a full point (i.e. 6.5 to 7.5) then you should have about 30ppm. Unfortunately you still have to use a ph test, but you'll be able to compare colors as opposed to interperting one color.

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Post InfoPosted 23-Sep-2006 15:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hm,

Sounds good, but my current work schedule is too crazy to allow me to live on the edge. What if I am a tad too high and cannot make it home in time at night. The prize I have to pay is too high, I really like my fishies

Degassing, sounds nice too, but my natural tab ph is only 7. So, wouldn't that mean that my ph would have to be 6 in the tank? And that with a KH that is raised by Baking Soda to about 3 to 4? That would be way too high of a CO2, I believe.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 23-Sep-2006 15:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Matty - nothing to say about the fishies I gor from you? You can be proud of having picked such lovely girls for me


I thought I had bragged enough about them. They are inded lovely. I agree that it's about time to put them in there with the male. I'd do it when you have some time to watch them though. Being there's two of them, the male will have a harder time bossing just one of them around.

About the RO water, I usnderstand why you wouldn't want to do it, but your water being pH 7 shouldn't be one of them. Pure RO water will have a pH right around that. You won't have to mess with it more than your tap water. I'd just reconstitute it with some baking soda or whatever you are already using to bring up the KH.

Also about the degassing. If the pH moves by 1 full point, that means the CO2 levels have moved by a factor of 10. Say from 2.3 to 23. Which is great if the stable atmospheric CO2 levels in your tank are about 3. It's not really an exact measure of how much CO2 you have in your tank, just that you've increased the CO2 by 10X.

That would be way too high of a CO2, I believe.


Well see that's the thing. You don't really know. Generally it's around 30. It can be as high as 50 or as low as 20. It would probably be a great test for me, because my target is 6.7 from 7.8pH KH is 5. That's a little more than 1 full point, but who can tell the difference between 6.7 and 6.8.? On the other hand, what if your pH is 7.7 and your KH is 3. Moving the pH to 6.7 gives you a bit less than 20ppm.



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Post InfoPosted 23-Sep-2006 17:52Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Degassing, sounds nice too, but my natural tab ph is only 7. So, wouldn't that mean that my ph would have to be 6 in the tank? And that with a KH that is raised by Baking Soda to about 3 to 4? That would be way too high of a CO2, I believe.

B.I.N.G.O. I thing you just won an algae free tank. Degas the sample and see what the PH is. If it's 7 like your tap then you should lower your ph to 6. This should give you approximately 30ppm. Forget the equilibrium BS or if you want to be on the safe side put less in, maybe keep your kh at 2. Mine is 2 naturally and I never had a problem. My ph is off the test kit. Remember you need to do this slowly. If you could trust your regulator, do it gradually over a few days, maybe when you have a day off. I trully think your co2 is too low. Your ferting (EI - estimate), you got light, low stock, good biofilter. Do it on the weekend or a day when your around. You need to push the limits of the co2 and then back it down a notch. That's your space. Fish adjust over time. Remember I told you when I acclimate fish in the evening if I don't do it really slow they go up and gasp, but the existing fish are fine. It's like anything else fish can adjust slowly. People keep cardinals at 5.5 and other at 7.5.





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Post InfoPosted 23-Sep-2006 21:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks guys, I will try to see what I can do, but I will wait a little as I first will get my fishies (tomorrow) used to the tank as it is.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 15

This week hasn't seen much action tankwise, besides the ferts nothing happened all week until this weekends water change. As is known, I begin to have a few minor algae issues at the end of the bolbitis leaves, but I am not sure if I should worry about it yet.

This weekend I did some switching of a few plants between the 125G and this tank, some Blyxa and Pearl Grass came to this tank while some micro sword went the other way. No major overhaul was needed to perform the rather minor changes.

Here are a few shots of the tank, specially for Matty who seems to just love the idea of looking at my tank from all kinds of angles

First, the classic Ingo full frontal shot:

Attached Image:

Full Tank - Main View



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Post InfoPosted 24-Sep-2006 02:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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With regards to CO2, the bubbles that you can see are CO2 bubbles being pushed through the tank. I think this is enough, don't you?

Here is a closer look at the main View right hand side, with the pearl grass instead of the swords. Also visible are a few anubias leaves with signs of black spot algae.

Attached Image:

Right Front



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LITTLE_FISH
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Now here is the tank from the back, clearly you can see how the CO2 bubbles are pushed out by the powerhead. I don't think that there is much more that could do to increase the dispersal even more.

Attached Image:

Full Tank - Back View



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LITTLE_FISH
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In the back view is also a new row of Blyxa that I brought over from the 125. If you look at the right side of the following picture you will see my red wendtii plants. They are in the tank for a few weeks now and, albeit still small, didn't melt too much at all.

Attached Image:

Back Blyxa



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Next is an angled shot from the back, showing how little plant mass has been left in the middle of the tank. Only some anubias, blyxas, and a driftwood branch separate front to back.

Attached Image:

Back Angled



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Here is now a Matty special

Showing the open short side (the other short side has the equipment for the tank coming in, alas not really all open) with the back side:

Attached Image:

Back and Open Short



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Here is the same short side, this time looking into the front of the tank as well. I am most certain that I am not done with changes to the plants, but I will take my time to replace parts of the tanks as time goes on.

Attached Image:

Front and Open Side



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Here is a look into the main view of the tank, slightly angled from above to show the open space in the middle of the tank.

From this distance the Bolbitis looks actually pretty good, compared to the closeup shot from yesterday.

Attached Image:

Full Main Angled



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The last full shot of the tank is from the side that holds the equipment and includes the light as well to give a better idea of how this tank looks when someone would be in the room and look at it live.

Attached Image:

With Equipment



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Last but not least, here is the boss eagerly awaiting the arrival of his girls tomorrow. You can play "I Spy" with the previous pictures as he is in almost all of the ones from this series.

I sure find him to be a very handsome fellow

Attached Image:

Male Apisto



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Post InfoPosted 24-Sep-2006 02:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Nice lookin' apisto there LF. Or should I say that's one nice LF, LF. Thanks for all the different angles. I really enjoy 360(ish) tanks. I'd love a room divider like that one day. My SW tank is visible on the front panel and the two sides, and I just find myself looking through the sides as much as the front. I dunno what it is, but I have a hard time accepting flat images when I know it looks different from other angles.

The only real comment I have for this tank is the view from the "back" as you have labeled it. I think if the blyxa were not in a row, but outlined the path through the middle a bit more it would look a little better. Unless you are going to just fill that section in. That would be attractive as well. Otherwise I like the little changes in this tank.



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Post InfoPosted 24-Sep-2006 03:33Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
I really like this tank. You can now see all the different shapes & textures of the plants where before, the floor covering all looked a bit too much the same. The wood shows up really well now too. I think I like the less crowded look, where each plant grouping has it's own definition.

Cheers
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Thanks to both of you for the comments, as always they are very much appreciated

Matty - I am with you on the Blyxa being lined up there, but I will have to wait until intuition strikes and tells me where else, or how else, I could use this plant. As I said, the tank is not done yet and small changes will happen in the near future.

Robyn - And yes, I agree, having the ground cover broken up makes it look better, I see this now. The danger I have to maintain right now is not to fall into the trap of making each distinct plant section a new species. I have to keep in mind that less is more when it comes to plant varieties in the tank.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 24-Sep-2006 12:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well,

Operation Fish Transport is on its way. About an hour and twenty minutes ago I started the acclimation process of the two girl Apistos and almost the whole time the male was right there.

Pardon the crappy picture quality but I had to use the flash to see him flash (got it? I know, not all that brilliant,).

Here is an upfront shot before they will be released:

Attached Image:

Coming Together



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Ok,

Here are a few more shots after I turned on the light in the tank.

Here is the male at the bag, I am sorry I couldn't get a good shot of him flashing the bag:

Attached Image:

Apistos I



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And here are the girls in the bag by themselves, just about a minute before being added to the tank after almost 2 hours in the acclimatization process:

Attached Image:

Apistos II



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And here is the male at the same time, patrolling the tank to make sure that there is not all of a sudden a rival that could spoil his price in the bag.

Attached Image:

Apistos III



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And as soon as they were released the male started to display to them, and nothing of that has changed in the last 40 min. Both seem more or less drawn to him, and he is drawn to both of them. He managed to show off the caves in the two hills of the tank, and each time a female followed him inside, followed by fin flapping of the male in the caves.

Here he is showing off to one of them, with an Oto onlooking the scene , but I don't think he cares at all.

Is it just me or did the female already turn a little yellow? Interestingly, the female that is almost all the time on his side is rather pale and almost doesn't move when he is near by.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Apistos IV



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Post InfoPosted 24-Sep-2006 16:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hi,
Perhaps she is playing "hard to get?"

Frank


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Thanks Frank,

I guess she is still scared of the fact that he is about 3 times her size

Anyway, here are a few more pictures from today. First off one of the two females:

Attached Image:

Female Apisto



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And here is the other one. I have to say sorry for the bad quality of the shots, and the algae on the glass, but that is as good as it gets for now.

Attached Image:

Other Female



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Here are now 3 more "Show-Off" pictures. In this first one the female is behind him and can be seen over his sholder. I like having females in the tank even if it is simply for the fact that I get to see his finnage more often.

Attached Image:

Showing Off I



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In this shot he is between the two females, a spot where I found him a few times during the day. When he is around none of the female chases after the other, but when he is gone the one less (just a tad less) drawn to him chases after the other one, but not too wild.

Attached Image:

Showing Off II



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And I personally find this one the best Show-Off shot I could get so far. With the female behind him he is blowing himself up so much that even his gills stick out all the way. He sure likes his new companions

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Showing Off III



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Post InfoPosted 25-Sep-2006 00:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Glad the introductions went so well. That is certainly a male showing off to his best ability. Looks like his head will expode, he is so puffed full of pride.

Cheers
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Hopefully we will hear the sounds of little fishie fins swimming in the water!

Glad the intro of the girls went well.

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Post InfoPosted 25-Sep-2006 01:48Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Looks like his head will expode


Sure does, doesn't it?

Yeah, I cannot wait for little fishies to swim through the tank, although I resist in getting my hopes up that this would ever be the case. I have never used baby fish food in my live and I have no idea how to get it close to any potential fry.

Thanks for the input,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Yup, call me the matchmaker. I sure know how to pick out healthy, HOT(insert more appropriate word) female apistos. You can tell he's impressed, what a lucky fish. *wolf howl, whistles, oogley eyes*

(was that enough bragging this time LF, or should I keep going?)

I'm very glad it went well. They seem to have formed quite the love triangle. I bet he can't wait for the film cannisters.

EDIT: hehe I got sensored describing the hot looks of the lady apistos.



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EDIT: hehe I got sensored describing the hot looks of the lady apistos

Way too funny!

LF,
Your little fish look really nice. We just got some double reds in at work but they are nothing compared to your Orange Flashes! Super fish! Nice job Matty!

Over and out...

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was that enough bragging this time LF, or should I keep going?
Keep on going

Thanks for the input, even the censored one that I will never see.

Wings - You should see his color in person, it is even better

I really hope they will be fine in there,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by jase101
ingo, they look fantastic - the male is VERY impressive, and i'm sure there will be breeding very shortly. i don't think you should stress about feeding the babies - i would stuff as much java moss as i could into places where you can't see it, close to the ground, (or where you can see it, but i doubt that fits with your visual plan right now)and let nature take her course. the java moss will build a 'culture' of micro-life that hopefully the babies can survive on. it might take a few batches, but when there's enough food, the babies survive. i've only ever fed my mothers their usual blood worms and brine shrimp, which the babies MIGHT have been able to get a tiny scrap of. so it depends - if you want to raise a whole batch (which you might not be able to do with new mothers, anyways - they may well go through a few broods themselves before they get the hang of things) you might wanna feed the fry. if not, you can still have a (perhaps more natural)breeding colony of apistos. it makes fascinating viewing!

best of luck, they all look gorgeous,

justin
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Justin,

Thanks for the input and the compliment on the male

The one problem I could see with moss in the tank is that it would be virtually impossible to get rid of it again and that it would start to spread. Otherwise that seems like a great idea.

And I am on board with the idea of letting things go "more" natural, meaning having to have the fry grow up on their own. I don't know if you follow my 125G log, but I had great success with doing just that with my Espei.

Oh - btw, not much additional yellowing on the females has happened so far. Do they get bright yellow like my viejita II do?

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Yeah, those will get very yellow as well. Almost all female apistos will, especially when they are in the mood or trying to guard fry. I think there's probably plenty of stuffs to be found amongst the other plants, but I agree the java moss is probably the best thing I can think of.



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Post InfoPosted 26-Sep-2006 15:49Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Matty for the heads up on the yellowing of the females, I am looking forward to their color change then

I doub't that I will add moss to the tank though, in the long run it may become too messy. I have these two natural caves in the two hill sections and I would have to shove the moss in there. As such they would not be easily controllable, I think.

Ingo


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Now here is a little update for the algae lovers amongst us. Here is a shot of the top of the most affected Bolbitis tip as it is right under the light, just below water surface.

As you may see, we have Staghorn and Brush united on this leaf. What you cannot see is that below the area displayed here, the leaf is clearly collection BGA (yes, blue green) on it. Nice, not much missing in there

How the hell can I have all these algaes at once?

Ingo

Attached Image:

Darn Algae



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Post InfoPosted 27-Sep-2006 00:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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That looks like something from the nightmare I had last night...

><>
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What is your CO2 at? Might be a good idea to bump it up a bit more. I know that tetra and I really push it on our fish.

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That looks like something from the nightmare I had last night
- good comment, pretty much sums up my feelings about it as well, superlion

Wings - and all the others on the same wave length - I guess I will have to get the measuring tools out then. I will let you know what I find out.

Ingo


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I am really intrested to see where you are at with the CO2. I keep my over 30ppm almost all the time.

I am really sorry to see that stuff in your tank. It is really not that pretty.

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Quick Update on the Bolbitis and its algae.

The first action of tonight was a complete trim of all infected bolbitis leaves, which are pretty much all the plant had when I got it (coincidence, I don't think so).

Here is the full tank afterwards (in an angle, right Matty?)

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Full Tank



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
See Last Page For Full Tank Shot After Tonights Trimming

Here is a close-up of the new trimmed area. As you can see, some new growth is still there, actually that one does not look infested at all.

Also, you may notice the first visible Crypt Wndtii leaves in the background:

Attached Image:

Closer Look



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Post InfoPosted 28-Sep-2006 00:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Home early today?

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Then I did some water testing for N, ph, and KH

NO3 = above 40ppm
ph = less than 6.6, but more than 6.4 - so let's assume 6.6
KH = 5DH

So, this is after only 7.5h of lights on, way not the end of the light cycle.

And it means -->>> at least a CO2 of 38ppm, and that is on the safe side of measuring.

Any thoughts?

Ingo


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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
I never really had a problem with BBA. I got it when I didn't take care of the tank, and when I trimmed it all out, it never came back after I started paying attention to it again. I'd just make sure all the nutrients were there and it wouldn't grow anymore. What I didn't get would stay there, kinda in limbo I guess.

EDIT: I always forget something I mean to say. It was, yep, I like the angle shots. It shows the depth off well. Especially in a tank with wood blocking a lot of the smaller plants from view.



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Post InfoPosted 28-Sep-2006 01:37Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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And it means -->>> at least a CO2 of 38ppm, and that is on the safe side of measuring.


LF,
Take a sample of your water and aerate it for an hour or so and then test it. This should bring your co2 in line with the atmosphere. You can't go by your tap because it could come out with high co2. The true PH of your tank without co2 injection is what it would be in your tank after it's exposed to the air for awhile. Whatever the PH is after you aerate (or let stand for 24hrs) you should use your co2 to target one full point lower.



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EditedEdited by tetratech
This is the PH reading from my 72g (yellow) and from my nano (dark green) The nano reading basically represents a degassed sample from the 72g. You could see the difference in the readings. Hard to tell exactly what the difference is but I think the 72g sample is off the chart and the nano sample is quite dark. But you really can't tell exactly what the ph is. This is why you must test the limits of your co2 and then stop when the fish show signs of distress. This would probably be the most beneficial level of co2 for your tank. Why not slowly up it everyday until you see a problem? Of course you have to be able to live the lifestyle

Attached Image:


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Thanks Tetratech,

I don't have too much time, gotta go and read the kids a bedtime story.

Anyway, quick update on the tank, two fold:

1) I just took a tab water sample to let it degas for 24h. The current tab reading has a ph of 7.2

2) Strange things are happening in the tank. When I came home I could not find either or female. A few minutes later I saw one emerge on the left tank side. As soon as the male saw her he chased her away aggressively. Another few minutes later I saw the other female emerge from a small gap in the right hill. Here, the male was displaying to her, and she did the same to him, turning her body 90 degrees sideways when close to him. Soon after she went back into that gap. During the next maybe 25 min the chasing of one and the display with the other repeated itself about 3 times each. He doesn't let the other female to the right side of the tank at all.

I guess we got something going here, albeit I have to say that the selected female is not bright yellow, more of a pale yellow (while the chased one is not yellow at all).

Now its story time,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Sep-2006 01:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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1) I just took a tab water sample to let it degas for 24h. The current tab reading has a ph of 7.2

That makes perfect sense. Since there is co2 coming right out of the tap it would makes sense that degassed your ph is 7.2. So you should be shooting for a ph of around 6.2, which is lower than you current ph which is telling me your co2 is too low.

Hope the kiddies enjoyed their story. Does it the story have a little fish in it?/:'

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Does it the story have a little fish in it?
Yeah, the one who reads it is LITTLE_FISH

But no tetratech - I think you misunderstood. Or maybe I don't get it. I just took the sample from the tab last night, it was not degassed yet. I will have to measure the sample again tonight to find out what the degassed value is.

Also, this sample does not contain any baking soda that I add to my tank to raise the KH. When you say it should be in the end around 6.2 in the tank, how can this be completely independent of the KH as I would have a much higher CO2 at 5DH than at 2DH?

Ingo


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But no tetratech - I think you misunderstood. Or maybe I don't get it. I just took the sample from the tab last night, it was not degassed yet. I will have to measure the sample again tonight to find out what the degassed value is.

I guess we misunderstood each other Take a waster sample from the tank and let it degass for 24hrs or aerate it for a few hours. Now you will have the PH of your tank without the co2. Whatever it is, try for a 1 pt drop by adjusting your co2 rate.


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try for a 1 pt drop by adjusting your co2 rate
Call me a silly old man, or anything, but I still don't get that part.

Isn't the KH the component in the water that defines how much CO2 can be bound to the water (sorry, probably not the right Chemical terms here)? Meaning - Having a sample degas that has a Kh of 2 should result in a higher ph after 24h than a sample with a KH of 5?

Ingo


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LF,

You KH is what fights to keep the PH from droping to fast. Thus the higher the KH the more CO2 you will have to pump in to drop the PH and just the oposit for a lower KH. In my case I have a very high KH of around 16 so it takes me more CO2 to get the PH down far enough to show enough CO2 in the water colum. Does that help? That is my best understandings of how it works. I am probably a bit off though.

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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
From here: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

Myth: A Low KH results in a larger pH swing when adding CO2.

Many people are under the mistaken impression that a low KH results in large pH swings when adding CO2, while raising the KH will result in smaller pH swings. This is not the case. The KH will move the start and end pH values, but the pH swing will be the same for a given level of CO2. You can see this in the chart below, or using the calculation:

Case 1: Assume a KH of 15 degrees, and a starting CO2 level of 4.5ppm, which would result in a pH of 8.0. If we then add CO2, to increase the CO2 level to 28ppm, that would drop the pH down to 7.2, for a pH shift of .8.

Case 2: Assume a KH of just 1.5 degrees, and a starting CO2 level of 4.5ppm, which would result in a pH of 7.0. If we then add CO2, to increase the CO2 level to 28ppm, that would drop the pH down to 6.2, for a pH shift of .8, the exact same as in case 1.

One possible explanation for this myth is that many copies of this pH chart skip some of the higher pH values, for example, jumping from pH 7.4 to a pH of 8.0. If the reader didn't pay careful attention, they might mis-interpret the size of the pH swing. I specifically made sure to include all pH values, between 6 and 8, in steps of .2.

This relationship will break down at extremely low KH levels (below 1 degree), when there isn't enough carbonate to completely buffer the acids present. In that case, the pH can drop quickly and dramatically. But if the KH is 1 degree or higher, then the size of the pH swing when injecting CO2 will be determined only by the amount of CO2 dissolved in the water.


Tetratech's got the right idea with this degassing thing, though telling someone to drop 1 point pH can be a tiny bit inaccurate like I pointed out earlier in some cases depending on starting pH and CO2. However, in most cases 1 full point of pH will be about 30 ppm of CO2. This goes for all values of KH except for those under 1KH. Other than at very small values(when it can't buffer), KH has no effect except moving the starting and ending values of pH.



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Post InfoPosted 29-Sep-2006 17:49Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
OK Matty,

So here is then what I should do:

- Take a water sample from the tank tonight, best would be just before lights out (that is also when the CO2 shuts off)
- Measure its ph
- Wait 24h
- Measure its ph

I can completely neglect the KH in the sample, right? Also, given that I had measured a ph of at max 6.6 and a KH of around 5, which by the chart should bring me to a CO2 level of around 38ppm, I should see after 24h a ph of at least 7.6. Right? And what is wrong if I see a lower ph value? Most likely the KH test kit? Maybe the ph test kit? Anything else?

Ingo

EDIT: Matty, did you read a few posts up news regarding the Apistos?


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DeletedPosted 29-Sep-2006 21:38
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GEAARG!!

I just deleted my post on accident.

Errmm lesse if I can remember what I just posted. Yes you got it right about the Degassing method now. I think your other test was a bit skewed because you used tap, and you alter your tank water. That's not the right way to test. You gotta test the tank water twice, once before and once after 24 hrs. Or test the degassed waterafter 24 hrs and then take a sample from your tank at the same time to compare side by side.

In regards to the apistos, I think the females are still young. Not small, but really too young to breed successfully. The male is trying to court one of them and that's why he doesn't really want the other around. If I remember right the harem breeders will take turns with the females. Not all at once but one after the other. So I don't think it's anything to worry about it such a large tank, unless it's disrupting meals for the odd female out.

Oh yea and please go vote for my new plant profile; E. tenellus.



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Post InfoPosted 29-Sep-2006 21:49Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,
Just test the damn water and drop it by about 1 pt ph by slowing adjusting your co2 output. make sure your watch your fish by living the lifestyle for one weekend

BTW - Aquarium Adventure just got in Agazzi double-red, orange hi-fin cacs (looked just like yours) and your viejia. I don't know if the viejia were 1,2 or 3, they are not that sophicated. There's a note on the tank that says consult cichlid book which you could find in the store's library. Yes all the aquarium has a library with a couch.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks to both of you

I tested the sample water from the tank last night, just before lights out. I had a ph of 6.4. so we will see what the ph of that sample is tonight.

On the Apisto frontier: The "selected" female is clearly defending some area in the right hill. She comes out sparely and when she does she is all dark. The only time she shifts colors to a more pale yellow (within 1 to 2 seconds, btw) is when the male is really near by. Unfortunately, during feeding she ventured off and I saw the other female sneak into that cave twice . The third time around she was there and chased her away. Looks like breeding to me, albeit I have no idea if this is only a training session or the real deal.

Ingo

EDIT: Tetratech - yeah, I have seen their library, very nice touch. Did you feel the urge to buy more apistos?


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Quick Update:

Because of scheduling issues, I took made the second ph test 23h after the initial one. I don't think it will make much of a difference, right?

Anyway, I got a blue color that I would place between 7.2 and 7.6, there are no color steps on the chart between these two values.

Let us assume it is 7.4, ok? Means one above what it was last night. That means now 30ppm, right? Sounds good to me. When I measured my CO2 directly I came up with about 38ppm minimum. Sounds about the same.

Opinions?

Ingo


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It wouldn't hurt to bump it up just a little bit. I think I am running mine at around 48 or a bit higher for my night time target. Fish seem to be fine.

For you I am guess a Ph of 6.4 or 6.5 would be fine.

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Hi LF, that will be exciting if you have eggs already. If she's young, don't worry if the first bunch don't make it though.

Keep us posted on the plants & the romance in your tank.

Cheers
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Wings - my ph at night is 6.4, so I would be right on, right?

Robyn - Yeah, I am not getting my hopes on fry up as of yet, although the female is for sure defending something in that hill and barely comes out at all, usually only to chase the other female away or to grab a quick bit of food.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 16

This week has seen the major cutting back of the bolbitis. I am not convinced that the issues with it came from bad water parameters, although all signs of algae on it indicate so. Bolbitis is known to take quite a while to settle. I assume that the unsettled plant was not able to provide the leaves with whatever they need as the plant in itself used it all up to settle on the wood. Time will tell, so far the new growth looks still good.

Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Last Weekend



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And here is the tank now. As you may notice, I did a few more minor changes to the plants. I removed all micro swords from the front left and replaced them with the last Blyxa I had in the 125G (was always intended to end up in the 40G), and two stems of Wisteria.

Attached Image:

Now



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Here is a closer look at this group. Notice the Oto in the center of the picture on the substrate. If you have any idea how large Blyxa is then you can imagine how small the Oto still is. I have been very lucky with them so far, I would have never thought that I can manage to keep them all alive.

Attached Image:

Closer Look



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I wish I could show you a picture of the "breeding" female (or whatever she is doing in that hill), but she barely comes out. When she does she is almost all black, the warning or scared color of the Apistos that I have. And usually she is chasing the other female away at high speed.

The male now begins to switch between chasing that female and courting her. Here she is, showing some yellowing as well:

Attached Image:

Other Female



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH

Look at bottom of previous page to view small changes in the scape

One of the best things of having females in the tank is that the male really likes to spread his finnage. This makes him so much more handsome looking

Here he is:

Attached Image:

Male Cac



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Here he is, discovering that the "other" female is coming very close to the "nest" of the breeding female. He sneaks up on her very slowly. As you may see, when you compare her coloration in this shot to the one two above, the black markings on her side are gone. I am amazed how fast they can change their looks.

Attached Image:

Watch Out Where You Are Going



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On the other hand, here he is, but this time it is more courtship than chase. There, her black side area is visible again.

This is it for this weeks update,

Have Fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Hello There, Honey



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Ingo,
The tank looks much better with the removal of the microswords. I like the different texures of leaves, etc around the wood. I'm not sure about the blyxa center, yet. It might be too tall and take away from the wood focals.

Your male cac sure is flaming Not that there's anything wrong with that.

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I'm not sure about the blyxa center, yet.
Good point tetratech, and thanks for the input.

I am glad that this tank allows me to perform small changes without having to mess with the rest of the tank (unlike the big tank). I can imagine that the one Blyxa right in the center might be the culprit for the fusing of the two groups (see picture), maybe I will move it in a while, when I know better how the rest of the tank will be structured. I come more and more to the conclusion that the micro sword was not a good choice for this tank.

About the Apisto: I am curious, did the one that they sell as a high fin in your LFS have an even longer dorsal fin?

Ingo

Attached Image:

Remove This One?



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6.4 ph with a Kh of 5 gives you 60ppm CO2. I think that is pretty good. How are your fish with it? I don't know if you would want to push it much more.

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Your male cac sure is flaming


I think you mean metrosexual, he likes females, but likes to look pretty too.

Nice update on the cacs, LF. It looks like they are starting to settle in nicely. Soon they'll all have their own positions in the heirarchy and everything will go smoothly, hopefully even the breeding.

From what I can tell it looks like the bolbitus does have some nice new growth on it. Those are nice when they settle in and get healthy. I hope they make it for you.

Sounds like the CO2 is up where it should be. I guess that leaves the NJ tap water.



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How are your fish with it? I don't know if you would want to push it much more.
Yeah, I think I have enough evidence to show that I am at least at 30ppm, if not more. Fish so far are fine, but I would like to test the "not-so-settled-plant --- and-therefore-algae" theory a little longer. If all else fails then I could maybe try other things.

Matty - yes, the new bolbitis growth is looking good so far. I really hope that the plant will do better now, but one thing I will have to wait out a for a while is to see what happens to leaves once they reach the hight of the original ones. Thanks for the thumbs up on the Cacs ,

Ingo


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Last night, I studied the behavior of the Apistos some more. Now I am thinking that there may not be any actual breeding.

The second female made the left hill her home now. Whenever the male swims by she comes out and presents herself sideways to him, and as soon as he comes close she seem to try to lure him into the cave under the hill.

Sometimes, when he is over the right hill, the first female shows similar behavior, although she seems to be more eager to get back into the cave.

Now I assume that this is how female Cacs behave in general, finding their spot for a potential spawn and then trying to get a male to come.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 03-Oct-2006 13:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I didn't really think they would already be breeding, but it seems like everybody is getting ready and settled in. I say give them some time. It's also very important they are fed well, with food almost always available. This is kind of opposite of what you want in a nice planted tank though. Situations like this always make me wish that protein skimmers worked on FW tanks. So maybe if they don't breed with regular feedings after a couple months then maybe kick it up a bit if you don't mind the possibility of extra algae from the increased feedings. Maybe even go to the live baby brine shrimp. That usually gets fish pretty perky.



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Post InfoPosted 03-Oct-2006 16:18Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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I think it was Ben that was talking about some people using skimmers on their FW planted tanks. I would have to do some digging around to find out what exacly it was about but I think it had to do with the scum layer you sometimes get on the tank. Right now I don't really have to time or energy to look it up but I thought I would throw it out there.



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Post InfoPosted 05-Oct-2006 13:58Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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That's a surface skimmer. It pulls water off the top instead of taking water from the middle of the column. Yep, it's used to get rid of that surface scum. A protein skimmer is a totally different story and operates on increased surface tension of salt water. It makes lots of little bubbles and proteins rideon those bubbles into a collection cup. The proteins will contain nitrogenous wastes and Phosphates and things not yet broken down into ammonia and other simple wastes.



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That's a surface skimmer ... A protein skimmer ...
That is why it is good to have a dark side person here in the forum

On the tank side, there is nothing new to report. The right hill female barely comes out of her cave while the left hill female is obviously trying to get the male to come into the cave with her, which he doesn't. She switched colors really quickly from a drab gray to a medium yellow (not as bright as my viejita female is all the time) when the male is near by.

Ingo


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That's a surface skimmer.


Thanks Mr. Darkside! What would we do with out you!

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What would we do with out you!


Try to get rid of surface scum with a $100 SW contraption?





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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
Try to get rid of surface scum with a $100 SW contraption?





:: calls BigAls to cancel order ::









Back in the saddle!
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Well,

I am a father again



When I came home tonight the female of the right hill was out more often than before, but mostly active all the way to the right of the tank. Upon closer inspections I found her hovering over a group of wigglers. Hard to tell how many are there, I think to have seen maybe 5

I know, it will be hard for these little guys to make it, but at least my guessing on what is going on was correct. The little ones are maybe 1mm long and white, occasionally lifting themselves off the ground about an half an inch or so. This is also the first time for me that I see a mother fish in action, picking up one guy that strayed too far from the spot where the others where and then spitting him back out into the center of the group.

I tried to get a shot of it, but it is really hard. Here is a picture as good as it gets for the time being. The white thing in the circle is one fry.

Question:
Should I do a water change on the tank tomorrow?

Ingo

Attached Image:

Fry in Circle



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Post InfoPosted 06-Oct-2006 23:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hi,
I'd pass on the water change. Many times the parents
perceive the ruckus as a threat and they actually eat
their fry.

Frank


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Congratulations grandpa. I had a sneaky feeling this was what was going on. My female became scarce during the egg guarding period too. Came out for food & short appearances, but mainly was unseen till she brought her brood out. It makes the tank really interesting when you are watching her with them. I could watch mum & fry for ages - but then, maybe I need to get a life.

The advice I got when I had my apisto fry was that they require really clean water & that you do frequent small changes, but take it from the top water column. No gravel vacuuming & such. If you are not target feeding with BBS, the water issue may not be so crucial for you. Usually, if you are target feeding them BBS 3 times a day, there is waste & you need to clean it. If you are just going to let things happen, as they happen & let the fry try to find food in the tank, I don't think frequent cleaning is required. My females never ate their fry (that I saw) but I know that it does happen. Some say even the sudden turning on & off of the lights can spook her into making such a mistake. That was why I put a little moon light there. You can either have it going the whole time the other lights are off (it helps her to keep away the other female, if she is a fry eater). Or you could just have it go on for a little bit before & after the main lights turn on & off. The change over then is not so sudden.

5 or 6 was all I got from my girl's 1st try, but her next try was just over 20.

Fingers crossed for you Ingo. Keep us posted on this exciting development. I hope some make it.

Cheers
TW
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Thanks Frank and Robyn,

I will take a closer look at the situation today and decide on the fly if I should do a water change or not. I certainly would not like to risk algae issues just because there may be a chance that some fry are still alive. If I do a water change then I will get the water from the top of the tank.

I am also thinking about soaking some flakes in water to almost dissolve them and then use a dropper to spot feed the mix.

I will keep you posted,

Ingo


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Hey congrats Ingo. Looks like the females were a little older than I thought. I agree that frequent water changes are the way to go. BBS just fed in general would be a good idea IMO. The adults will eat it too. For the planted tank, I'd just feed it sparsely though, like you said overfeeding is going to cause algae, unless you want to go ahead with the breeding that is.

So I don't know if we got an answer of if you were going to let them try to find food on thier own or if you were going to pamper them?



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So I don't know if we got an answer of if you were going to let them try to find food on thier own or if you were going to pamper them?
Given that I am not in posession of BBS, the answer is simple, they are on their own .

It worked with the Espei, but of course I saw the major population explosion in that tank when there was still some diatoms available to munch on.

We will see what happens, and yes, I will do a water change today. Maybe I even continue some replanting on the opposite side of the tank, this may stir up some eatable gunk for the fry. But I think I have currently no more plants available to replace the micro sword. I will see.

Ingo


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Well, here is the good news and the bad news:

Good: the water change went well, I could not see any issues with the female.

Bad: now I see that the male has found the fry and he finds them tasty

I only see 5 left where there were at least around 10 a few hours ago.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Naughty daddy

Did the mum give him "what for" for his error. Usually both are good parents, so that's a shame. Are you sure dad ate them - did you see it? These fry are very fragile & not easy to raise from what I've been told & what I've found by experience. If you saw him red handed having a snack there can be no doubt, but if not, he may not be to blame. Remember, in the end all of mine were removed to grow out tanks (by the fish guy & some by me). One by one, they just died.

Also, do you have frozen BBS over there? I have found one brand that sells it & have used it. I think live BBS stimulates fry more with their swimming, but the frozen will still move around a little with the current - but the waste does tend to sink.

Re softening the flakes. You'll still need to crumble the flakes really well before you soak them. These guys have tiny, tiny mouths.

Don't be downhearted if none of the remaining 5 make it. Didn't take long for this batch to arrive, so I'm sure it won't take long for the next batch either.

Good luck & keep us posted.

Cheers
TW
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Robyn,

Yeah, I have seen it . The female did flash him to go away, but when he intruded anyway she was overwhelmed and let him have his pickings. Just before dinner last night I did not see any fry anymore

Weekly Tank Update - Week 17

Not much has happend with this tank during the last week, except that my theory on breeding activity has been validated. But, as stated above, it went as fast as it came. On a positive note, the other female stays now mostly inside the hill on the left, making me believe she is only a few days behind the one on the right. How many batches will the male eat? I am considering removing him if he keeps on doing that.

I did some minor changes to the tank during the maintenance though, you will see them in a later picture.

Here is the full tank now:

Attached Image:

Now



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Here is a close-up of the nest of the fry, with the female over it. At this point there were still a few fry in there, but they are sooooo small that they don't show in the shot. BTW, this is not the spot where the eggs were, they were hidden much deeper inside the hill. She brought the fry out there for whatever reason.

Attached Image:

Female



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Here is the part that I changed this weekend. I removed even more micro swords and replaced them with some very small klippings of Hygro that I had left from the 125G trimming. They are now lined up on the left short tank side:

BTW, behind the rock is the cave of the other female.

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New Area



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Here is a full shot of the tank in a slight angle to show the depth a little better. BTW, algae has this week not been a major issue, the new bolbitis growth still seems fine, although it is not as high as the old one yet.

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Front Angle



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Here is the center area of the tank from the front, with the one fish in it that makes me a little angry these days. As pretty as he is, seems like his belly has more to say than his parental istincts. I wonder if the water change had something to do with it as before he never got close to the fry.

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Male in Center



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Last picture, a look from the back of the tank, also showing the 125 and the 29

I think within the next few weeks I will keep on reducing the micro swords until there are none left. For this tank it was certainly the wrong plant.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Back and Other Tanks



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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
That is too bad that he is a fry eater, instead of working as a team with wife no. 1. Maybe as the female matures, she will become confident enough not to allow him to do this. Matty believes she is young I think, so she probably needs to mature a bit more & get used to the idea of defending - even against her larger mate.

Lets see how he does with wife no. 2.

My favourite shot is the tank's frontal angle. I like the little triangle of space in between --- what are they --- the micro swords? If so, I hope you leave these ones in the tank. This is a really nice looking tank.

Cheers
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Thanks Robyn,

Yeah, let us hope they will beat the crap out of him if he tries that again.
what are they --- the micro swords?
That would be blyxa, you have it as well

Thanks for the compliments,

Ingo


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That would be blyxa, you have it as well


So the micro swords are to the left & right?

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Robyn,

If you look at the last picture, labeled "Back and Other Tanks", you will see the micro swords on the left third and the right-most areas. The blyxa in the middle is separating the swords.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
I like all the angles Ingo . The one with the other tanks behind it is really cool.

I'd say give them a few tries, maybe don't try to sneak in a water change this time and see what happens.

As for the new scape, I'm not sure that the hygro will be the best on the open veiwable side, that stuff can get so hairy as to block out the view from that side. But I'm sure it will fill that space functionally as it's a fast grower. Maybe if you keep it cut short like it is now, it could continue to look great there. You're right about the microswords. They look to me like they keep growing up as well. Weird plant, I can't say I ever cared for it, not just in your tank, in mine too. Mine was even starting to spread out and I still took it out. Blah.

I agree about the blyxa. I still need to get myself some of that. I'm just going to wait until I kick the algae.

Your tank on the other hand, looks very algae free. Very nice.



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Just wrote a whole post and then deleted it

Basically - Tank looks FABULOUS. ]


please can I have your permission to print off some of the photos in this thread to show the guy at my LFS?

I won't copy it but its looks so nice and well can I please?

Its a little bigger then my tank but it gives me a vague plan.

GFG

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Thanks everybody,

Matty - yeah, the hygro will not look good over time in that spot, I am 100% with you. But, having had some clippings from the 125G I thought it looks for the time better than the micro sword does. Yes, when I pulled out my sword I had up to maybe 8 inches of runners hanging on it.

The female Apisto has abandoned the breeding spot and is courting the male again. I guess this means that I can be certain that there are no survivors. The other female is trying now, we will see how that goes.

GFG - Thanks for the compliments. Sure, go ahead and show off my tank But you will have to write more to my thread than "Tank looks FABULOUS."

Ingo


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I had typed loads! and then the stupid internet froze.




GFG

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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
you will see the micro swords on the left third and the right-most areas
Thanks LF. These micro swords remind me a little of my hair grass or lilly grass I have. I'm glad that it's not the blyxa that you are going to remove. I like the little separations you've made with them.

Yeah, I agree maybe try it without the water changes this time. I don't think water quality issues are quite as important, if you aren't target feeding. The target feeding does cause extra waste, which you need to deal with. I was doing small water changes every 2nd day when I was feeding with BBS. You're not doing that, so miss a weekly water change & see if it makes a difference to his behaviour. If he still snacks (and I've heard that it can become a habit) maybe temporarily removing him may be the only option, if you want to save fry & the female is not yet able to defend against him.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks GFG and Robyn,

The issue with water changes is less one of pollution from fish waste and food, as the tank is now really lightly stocked, but more of a problem of plant fertilization. I have higher N and P values in my tank that rely on weekly water changes for being reset. I would have to lower my dosages in advance so I don't drive Nitrates up too high.

Ingo

PS: did a 20G Ingo-Style overhaul, gonna go and post the pictures there now


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Long time no post, so here is one:

The second female did indeed breed under the hill on the left of the tank. I guess moving fry once hetched is a common thing among Apistos, at least in my time. This female moved them all the way to the middle of the tank, between the center group of Blyxa and the extended arm of a piece of driftwood. Again, it is a rather open spot.

She seems to have more resolve in defending that spot, she chases all Otos away and even nudged a snail so many times that it changed direction and moved somewhere else. The male is coming close once in a while and she holds him off so far, we will see for how long.

I have only seen one wiggler in there, so not much hope for more.

I know it is a crappy photo, but it is the best I got. She is sitting in there and watches for intruders.

Ingo

Attached Image:

Nest



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Congrats on the breeding again

If this is the first time for them they may not get it yet. After a few spawns the male will eventually figure it out, or so I've read. In the mean time, enjoy the guarding behavior - I always got a good laugh out of my brevis pair pitcking up MTS nearly the size of them and spitting them out on the other side of the tank


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Finger crossed, Ingo. Congratulations again.

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oooo exciting.

Good Luck Ingo.
GFG

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks NowherMan6, Robyn, and GFG for the good luck wishes, but you are too late already.

When I came home last night the female was perusing the tank again, not paying attention to the "nest" she was protecting so carefully a day earlier.

At least we know one thing for sure by now, both females and the male are fertile.

And I can do my water change today without worrying.

Have fun,

Ingo


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Bummer. Me thinks these apisto babies are not so easy to raise.

Better luck next time.

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Can't expect much from first clutches. All cichlids are like that. They'll learn, give 'em a few tries.



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Thanks folks,

Don't worry too much for me, I see the fry as a nice side-effect of the tank and not its main purpose. If I will have fry growing up then this would be awesome, but if not then I will be ok as well.

On to the main topic:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 18

Nothing happened this week, kinda boring I have to say. The only event was the breeding attempt of the second female, producing wigglers but nothing more.

Here is the tank two weeks ago, for comparison:

Attached Image:

2 Weeks Ago



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And here is the tank today, some things have changed a little since then. For one thing, the micros on the way left have been replaced with hygro. One can also see how much the Pearl Grass on the right front has grown. I did perform a little trimming on the left part of it and planted some on the left side of the tank.

Here is the tank now:

Attached Image:

Now



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Forgot to mention, you may also have noticed the duck weed on the top. I have it now in my 29, 125, and this one. It didn't work on the 20 though as it got sucked into the filter intakes too much.

Here is an angle shot from the front:

Attached Image:

Angle Front



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Look At The Full Frontal Shot On The Last Page, Please

And here is the angle shot from the back. If you look carfully at the middle of the tank you may see the fins of the male Apisto. That is the spot where the second female brought her fry this week:


Attached Image:

Back Angle



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A few plant details, if you don't mind.

Here is the small Pearl Grass planting on the left of the tank that I trimmed off the right group. Also note the snails on the botton

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Pearl Grass



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The snails are serving as a nice live snack for the Apistos, although only the really small ones are eaten. So some large ones are good to keep the food source going

And these are working on that:

Attached Image:

Snails Making Out



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The last pure plant shot is, of course, another Anubias flower. If I have any success with something at all then it is the constant production of them. Currently, I have at least 4 of them in the tank, in various stages.

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Nana



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Here is a plant shot with Apistos way out of focus

The Blyxa sits in the middle of the tank and is partially shaded by the wood branches above. I assume that is why it is much greener that the others. In the back you can make out the male Apisto showing off to the female (that you may notice) in the front.

Attached Image:

Blyxa With Apistos



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Talking about Apistos, I have not shown the females in quite a while as both were busy with the fry stuff. Here is the one that owns the left hill, the one that bred second. She seems to dominate the tank now, except for the male of course

Attached Image:

Left Hill Female



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And here is the female that lives in the right hill. She is having a hard time right now with the male, he is chasing her away pretty badly. I don't know why that is though as she was the first one he mated with.

I guess it will get better at some point.

Attached Image:

Right Hill Female



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The last two picturs are for the other fish in the tank,the Otos of which I have not lost even one. This to me is the greatest surprise I have to say, I must have gotten really lucky.

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Oto



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You may remember that I initially supplemented their food with cucumber slices, but I have not done this in quite a while. I am sure that by now the tank has enough small algae for them to eat, otherwise I would not know where this belly would be coming from.

That's it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Oto Belly



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Sounds like things are going well in there & the apisto gang are learning their place in the hierarchy of the tank.

Interesting shot of the snails. Do you actually see the apistos eat the snails? I never saw mine eat them & I always wished they would. Maybe they ate them in some obscure corner.

I haven't fed my otos cucumbers in a while either - been too lazy to do it - but they also don't seem to be suffering for it. I might give them one soon - just as a treat.

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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Lots of nice plant growth there Ingo, especially the bolbitus. Gotta keep the pearl grass in check though. It looks like it grew about 3 inches upwards. Mine tends to stay low and spread out. I think it's a lighting difference, but might have to do with trimming too. And I have to say that as it is right now, the hygro looks wonderful in the tank. I'm not sure if you want to try to keep it low like that, but if you did, I think it would work out well.

The females both are yellowing up a bit it seems to me. Even the female who is chased away is tellow and doesn't seem skinny or anything, so it appears to be working out alright. I'm sure the male will switch back and forth between the two. I'm really glad those feamles have worked out for you, it seems they were well worth it.

I'm not sure why everyone wants to get rid of those types of snails, they don't do any harm. I'm basically infested with them and I see no signs of herbivory. I assume they feed on detritus and/or algae. They sound pretty favorable to me. There are some plant eating snails, but those aren't that type.



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Post InfoPosted 16-Oct-2006 02:41Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Robyn and Matty,

To answer your questions/comments:

Yes, I have seen the Apistos eat snails, but they must be very small. They pick them up and munch them in their mouths, then they spit out the crushed shells

Yeah, the Pearl Grass is growing upwards quite a bit, probably a light issue. I will have to trim it probably no later than in 2 weeks.

The hygro will not stay that small and constant cutting back will not do the plant to good. I may have to switch to some smaller plant, but for the time being it is ok.

The yellowing of the females is very different than the viejita style. Here, the females turn yellowish when coming out in the open and after a positive (as in not being chased) encounter with the male. The viejita on the other hand is almost always bright yellow, much brighter than the cacs.

The problem with snails is their numbers. Not because of plant eating, but because of waste production. So, too many are not good, some are just fine.

Guess that's it for now,

Ingo


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LF,

Your tank is looking quite sharp! It reminds me of this place that I trout fish often back home.

Great flower shot too! The only flowers I have right now are on my spider plant!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Thanks Wings,I appreciate the input

Weekly Tank Update - Week 19

Really not much has happened during this week and during this weekends maintenance. I added some of the NL Java Fern from the 125G makeover to the right group, just smushed it in there as deep as I can without removing any anubias (not in the substrate, in the hill cover).

And that is all, I was way too busy with all other tanks to do anything else.

Attached Image:

Tank This Weekend



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Here is a closeup of the right hill with the maybe 10 leaves (on 2 roots) of NL Java Fern addition.

You can also the the Pearl Grass on the right, in need of a trimming, but that will have to wait until next weekend:

Attached Image:

NL Java Fern



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Also in need of trimming very soon is the Hygro on the way left tank side. Actually, maybe a replacement with a more permanent plant will have to happen instead. How about some trimmings of the Pearl Grass from the other side of the tank?

Attached Image:

Hygro Getting Too Tall



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Last but not least, here is a shot of the bolbitis. I think it is beginning to become very dense. After the major cutting that I did a few weeks back it is doing much better and has almost no algae anymore. Also note the Crypts towards the right.

Have fun,

Ingo

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Bolbitis



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Post InfoPosted 22-Oct-2006 19:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Oh Oh,

That does not look good

Tonight, while getting ready to feed the fish, I saw the male hovering above the substrate, just at the entrance into one of the hills. Both females were out and about, but he did not show to either, nor did he chase them.

Furthermore, once feeding started he did not come to eat his share. Usually, this is the beginning of the end.

I may have had the CO2 a little higher, but not so high that it influenced the other fish in the tank, the females seem fine.

Not good,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 23-Oct-2006 00:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a shot of him, albeit not very good, that I just got. Since the last entry he has moved to another spot and then back to this one. Just in case, I reduced the CO2 to previous levels, I may have overdone it a little as all plants have bubbles which is not normally the case in my tank. At the same time, I also added a little less baking soda, so maybe I pushed the limit. But, wouldn't he be up and gasping for air if that would be the case?

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Not so good



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Post InfoPosted 23-Oct-2006 01:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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When I had my CO2 issue my fish were swimming circles and doing weird flips and rolls. All were breathing really hard. I think they were past the point of being able to gasp at the top.

How is he doing today? I hope he will be fine!

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Post InfoPosted 23-Oct-2006 14:51Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Yeah, normally they gasp at the surface. Maybe he's just in the "doghouse" for eating the eggs/fry. I hope he's doing better for you soon.



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Post InfoPosted 23-Oct-2006 14:56Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks guys,

I have not seen him today yet as I am leaving for work when it is still total darkness in my basement.

He kept his position until lights out last night, but it sure does not look good. I expect him to go to fish heaven, unfortunately

Ingo


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Well,

As of last night, the male Apisto was still alive. When I finally got home from work (another 12 hour workday he was in the same spot than the night before (as seen in picture above). After I fed the tank he moved once around the right hill, slowly with taking breaks to sit down on the substrate. I can see white very thin poop hanging on him (about 1.5 inches long), a very bad sign

My current thoughts are concerned with either waiting it out until he cannot move anymore or with releasing him from his misery.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 24-Oct-2006 14:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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You aren't going to try to isolate and medicate him? May be internal parasites or something though, usually tough to treat. Sorry LF .



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Post InfoPosted 24-Oct-2006 15:11Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Why not break out the Metro and see if you can get him better? You can treat the water of the main tank directly, it won't hurt the other apisto females.

Sorry LF, fishy troubles are no good


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Thanks guys,

Last thing I have heard is that if you see the signs (and I think for sure I do now) then it is too late anyway.

On the other hand, I might be able to safe the females (which don't show any signs yet) if I used the meds.

Decisions, decisions, decisions

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 24-Oct-2006 16:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,

Update on the Flash?

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Post InfoPosted 25-Oct-2006 13:50Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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I haven't checked in for a few days, as I've been really busy with work. I'm sorry to hear your male may be sick - just let me say I know what you are going through. I hear metro is easier to get a hold of in the US, so why not try it. I agree with the comments that internal parasites are hard to treat - I tried several times without success, but I have read of others who have treated successfully.

Let us know how things are going.

Cheers
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Thanks for the input

Last night, the behavior of the male has been the same as it was the two nights before, mostly sitting still on the substrate somewhere around the right hill. The females, as usual, were swimming around.

The one difference I saw was that he had his normal body color, a medium gray with the few horizontal stripes. The two days before he was all light gray only. I thought it was a good sign first, but then concluded that this must be the "untainted" coloration of the fish and all other shades are "handmade" to show either aggression, or affection, or to blend in.

I have metro at home, I bought it once about a year ago for my pearls in the QT when one died, but I never used it. I am not much of a medicator though and given that there may be a small chance only for him (if he has parasites) to survive I am still struggeling with a decision if I should use it or not.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 25-Oct-2006 15:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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IMO LF, it may not be as late as you think. I've seen scrawny, emaciated, grey colored fish hovering behind the heater recover using metro - considering how safe it is for a med I don't see what you have to lose.

If he's eating, you can target him by mixing it with some frozen food, if he isn't then you can still add it to the water.


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TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Hi LF, if it were me, I would try the metro. What is there to lose? If he doesn't make it anyway, you have lost nothing - but it just might help him out. You won't know unless you try. If he is still eating, NowherMan6 gives you good advice. From what I've been told, the most chance of success comes if you can get him to eat food that has been soaked in metro. If he has already given up food, then the only choice is to medicate the water.

Good luck with him.

Cheers
TW
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Very valid point that you two are making there. I guess I will dose tonight.

This is the product that I have at home. Anyone dissagree with the suggested dosing on that site? I have to add it to the water column as the fish hasn't eaten in 3 days .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 25-Oct-2006 20:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Toooooo Laaaaaate

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Sorry for the Graphics



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Post InfoPosted 25-Oct-2006 23:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Sorry LF. Hopefully the females will still do well until you can find a replacement male.



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Post InfoPosted 25-Oct-2006 23:48Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Oh, I'm so sorry LF. He was such a gorgeous fish & I know how sad it is when this happens. I hope your girls will be ok.

BTW, I'm amazed - you get metro from seachem? Over here you have to get a prescription & not many vets are willing to give a script for fish, as they say they don't know too much about them. I found one eventually that would write a script, but I got the tablet form. I think it also comes in liquid - which I think would have been better.

Anyway, once again I'm sorry for your loss.

Cheers
TW
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Thanks Matty and Robyn,

I will see how this all progresses. My thoughts now are if I should treat the tank anyway, not knowing 100% for sure what killed the fish, but all indications are for parasites.

If it was a given that the male had to go then at least he could have done so before he ate all the fry

The females seem still ok and very active, but their behavior has completely changes. They are now after each other and show to each other all the time, barely finding time in between to feed.

Yeah Robyn, the metro can be bought here from online vendors, in case someone cares - I got mine from "That Fish Place". The 100g tube costs over $50 plus shipping.

Matty, I will have to see what I will do next with regards to a male. Should I wait a while and then take action? Should I take action now and have the LFS order me one (which can take up to 4 weeks)? Should I just give up on them as so far they have caused quite a string of issues (remember my all male club?)? I don't know...

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Oct-2006 00:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Well, I know you are not one that likes to medicate - but I think in your circumstances, I would try to get them to eat some metro soaked food, as a precaution. I have been told by several people, that by the time these apistos show symptoms, it is already too late. So treating them now may give you an advantage.

As a contradiction to what I say above, a part of me believes that once the parasite sickness has taken hold, it is a hard disease to beat, no matter even if you medicate. But the medication at least gives a chance of cure, whereas not treating a sick fish can be no help. If we get cancer which may be terminal, we still go through the treatment, hopeful of a cure. I think more chance of success if treatment is given early - before symptoms.

One LFS over here (he was talking about discus - also sensitive fish) said he runs a UV sterilizer, plus on a regular basis (maybe every month - can't recall exactly what he said) he feeds them a metro soaked meal, as a precaution. If metro was easy to get here, I would do the same with any new apisto I buy. He apparently has a chemist friend, who gives it to him on the sly. I just don't understand why in the US you can buy it on-line (not even from a chemist) but we need a prescription. Grrrr

About getting another male. At least you have a QT to house him in, while you watch how things go with your girls. These parasites seem to take a long long time to show up though - you had him for quite a while before you saw a problem - how long was it? So what I am trying to say is, as the girls weren't with the male for all that long, if he did pass anything along, it might take a good while for it to show up. Therefore, I wouldn't add the male to that tank for at least 6 weeks, probably longer. What do you think Matty - even longer. If you saw a nice male, you could always leave him in QT for a longer than usual stint - but then, what to do with him if something happens to your girls?

Ah, it is not an easy decision. Probably, if I saw an especially nice male that I couldn't resist, I'd do the QT thing & just wait even a couple of months to join them, but I probably wouldn't actively look for a male. I'd let time pass first.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 26-Oct-2006 00:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
superlion
 
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RIP pretty fishy

><>
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Thanks Ladies

Yeah, the last thing I want right now is to get into a cycle of replacing fish all the time, buying a male now, then have the females die and buy new ones, then the male again ... and so forth.

BTW, Bensaf once said that he treats his tank (or used to) for parasites on a (I believe) 6 months interval as a precautionary measure.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Oct-2006 14:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
That's exactly what I was meaning to say, in my long winded waffle.

1. That treating apistos as a precaution with metro for internal parasites could be a good option. If I had easy access to metro, that's what I'd do

2. That you don't want a nice new male in QT, only to have problems with the females in the Breeder.

Cheers
TW
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NowherMan6
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So sorry LF. He's beautiful, even in that state.

As I said, treat the tank, and then treat the new guy whenever he comes around. It sounds like he only gave you a few days notice before he went. If you see any of the first signs, like a concave tummy or greying and darkening of color, it's time to treat.

Good luck with the catfights


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Post InfoPosted 26-Oct-2006 15:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Good luck with the catfights
You know, all last night that was what the girls were doing . One standoff followed the other.

Good that you mentioned the signs that I should keep an eye open for. Not because I didn't know them, but because this is the one and only reason why I hesitated to med the tank. Neither did my male have a concave tummy nor did he darken (actually he got lighter in color). The lack of these signs makes me wonder if parasites are actually the reason for his demise.

Just hypothetically: given that cichlids from SA are not doing too well in high N, could it be that his exposure to values of maybe up to 40ppm over an extended period was the reason for his death? The females are in the tank maybe a little over half the time that he was in it. How does a fish behave when dying of too much N over time (vs extreme overdose of N at once)?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Oct-2006 16:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I don't know if too much N will kill the fish directly. When my Rams started showing signs of Hole in the Head, I found plenty of info online pointing to poor water quality. When I checked my N it was way high (Bright Red! ).

From what I read it is more of contributing factor. If SA cichlids don't like high N in the water, it probably puts their bodies under stress. This leads to secondary infections of stuff that may have been dormant in the fish.

In the case of my Rams the male died within a couple days of showing symptoms. When I got wise to the High N I began doing 50% water changes which hold my N at about 15 ppm. The female was able to last for about 2 weeks before she passed. They both went in the tank at the same.

Just a thought.


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Post InfoPosted 26-Oct-2006 18:34Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Rick for sharing your thoughts, and I believe that they at least partially line up with my thinking.

I may have to add a little less N to the tank as its values seem way to high. I know the test kits are not accurate, but even if I lower the N I would still be above the 20ppm mark (by far).

On the Med Frontier: I used the metro last night and have one question. It says in the instructions that I should repeat every 2 days until the symptoms go away. Well, I have no symptoms, so how often do you think I should repeat? My thoughts are to do it at least one more time tomorrow after the water change.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Oct-2006 19:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I think your nitrates would need to be around 80ppm to cause serious enough problems to kill a fish in a short period of time(less than a couple years). Most Nittrate problems happen slowly. I think anything over 20ppm starts to get a bit stressful for mildly sensitive fish, personally. That's why I don't dose up to EI levels and am labelled a critical fertilator. I like to keep nitrates hovering around 10ppm.

As far as the meds. I'm no fish doctor. I don't usually medicate fish and try to stay out of medication discussions(which is hard when you work at an LFS). But I also know that dosing for short periods of time does nobody any good. I'd repeat at least once or twice, since you decided to go with it. And I'm not blaming you for doing so, not medicating is just something I do out of ignorance of disease and treatment.



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Post InfoPosted 27-Oct-2006 22:06Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Matty,

Thanks for the input. I am usually with you on the "non-med" team as I treat only what I can identify, and that has been Ich. My thoughts here were that I either could just wait and see how the girls will be doing or to dose meds for the most likely cause of death of the male. In the end, my social contience won as I just cannot handle that, if they should have become sick in the future, I could have done something about it.

The N discussion is only to make sure that I am not thinking up some illness when the culprit may be much more obvious (as in overferting).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Oct-2006 09:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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I agree with Matty, repeat at least once - maybe a third. Are you treating the tank, or dosing their food?

I hope all goes well for them.

Cheers
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Robyn,

I am treating the tank. I put some thought into medicating the food but then decided against it. Reason: the Otos. If it is a parasite and if it would be able to spread to the Otos then treating the food would not help them as they don't eat flakes and I don't give them any other form of food then what grows naturally in the tank.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Oct-2006 14:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Good point LF. The only thing is that for some reason, my otos never were affected by whatever killed off both sets of apistos. Whatever it was, they seem to be immune. There were 2 in each tank & I can still account for all - who have nice fat bellys.

Good luck with the girls. Keep us posted.

Cheers
TW
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hey LF,

sorry to hear about the little fella - he was gorgeous and you looked after him very well.

give it a week, and then just go and get a new boy! just do it! you know you want to!!

i'm just in the process of deciding on another species to join my cacs in my 6 foot tank....

justin
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Thanks Robyn and Justin

I will wait a little longer than just a week, although the constant bickering between the girls may make me change my mind soon

Weekly Tank Update - Week 20

The sole highlight of this week was a negative one, the death of my male Apisto. What a bummer, but I will move on.

Let's use this chance of a round weekly update to reflect on the tank in 5 week intervals. Here is the tank in week 1 (meaning one week after setup) after setup:

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Week 1



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Aready by week 5, all the fast growers had been replaced with a more permanent plant selection, although only some of the plants are actually still in the tank today. Here you see the whole surface covered with Micro Swords:

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Week 5



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Within the next 5 weeks, the tank had not seen many changes, mostly the wood had been moved around a little as it took me quite a while to figure out how to affix individual branches so they don't fall over all the time while doing a water change:

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Week 10



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By week 15, the actual scaping process that leads to today's setup was well under way. As you can see, the bolbitis, more anubias, various blyxas, and some pearl grass are already in place.

The wood by then also had found its more permanent position.

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Week 15



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And here is the full tank now after yesterday's water change and a few minor trimmings and replantings. It appears as if the Pearl Grass had not grown too much, but this is because I cut it back. Also, I don't think the Hygro will be able to stay for much longer as it begins to grow too tall:

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Tank Last Night



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Here is a closer look at the Pearl Grass before I trimmed it yesterday. Usually, I pull out the entire plant and the cut off the bottom and replant the top. But once in a while, like yesterday, I cut off individual tops and leave the rest of the plant in the tank. This is rather time consuming, but I wanted to use the tops somewhere else while still having enough left of this group.

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Pearl Grass Before Trim



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Here is the backside of the tank, and that is where you can see what I did with the Pearl Grass trimmings. I am still working on the removal of the micro sword, and little by little I will get rid of it all. This time, the left most part had been removed:

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Back View



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Here is a closer look at the new pearl grass group, with Oto and Apisto, and snails and what not . As you can see, the plants are rather short and will take a while to fill in nicely.

Pearl Grass grows fast enough to allow trimming and re-propagation on a rather frequent base, but not too fast to become a pain in the neck. Nice!

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New Pearl Grass Group



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Also from the backview, here is a closer look at the bolbitis. I think it is setteling in nicely by now and I see various new shoots. I only rarely now have to trim away an older shoot that gets some staghorn algae on it, nothing compared to the issues I had with the plant a few weeks back.

Also, the crypts to the right are setteling in nicely.

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Bolbitis and Crypts



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The last two shots are about the widows of the tank, the Apistos. They both seem to be fine and eat ok. They have been eating better though when the male was around, but it is not a lack of interest why they don't eat, it is the constant stalking of each other that distracts them too much.

Here is one peeking out from the right hill:

Attached Image:

One Apisto



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Last but not least, here is the other one in the open. I treated the tank with metro again after yesterday's water change and I will spend the next day and a half thinking if I should treat one more time.

That's it for this tank and this update, I hope you like to time travel, have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Other Female



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This tank is really coming along nicely LF, I can't wait to see how it looks 3 months down the road, I think it'll be a stunner.

That pearl grass is one of the few plants that truely respond well to trimming their tops. The one thing I'm really enjoying about my tank right now is how nice a carpet that stuff makes by just hacking off the tops every couple weeks. Cool plant.



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EditedEdited by FRANK
Hi LF,
In looking at your logs, and your comments about algae,
I'm having a thought or two on the causes/cures for the
problem.

We all know that algae is an opportunistic critter. By
that I mean that if it finds a niche, it takes advantage
of that niche and fills it. Now that niche can be an
over abundance of some element, say iron, or nitrogen,
or it can be a lack of some element as well. Or, it can
simply be the lack of a competitor (too few plants).

In your cases, you are adding fertilizer regularly, and
changing water regularly. But, in looking at the plants
in your pictures, specifically the close up ones of your
foreground, carpet, plants, I'm wondering about
the circulation between the leaves, and down near the
substrate. The same thought with the mosses on the drift
wood. Despite being up in the water column, they have
grown so thick, I wonder about the circulation through
the individual leaves.

I'm beginning to think that they might be
"nutrient sumps."
Places where the lack of circulation could
cause concentrations of nutrients and thus, the
growth of algae.

Just a thought. It seems to happen whenever the carpet
plant becomes too thick. Then, when it becomes unsightly,
we tear out the carpet plant and a few weeks later the
algae is back under control, or gone.

Frank


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Hi LF

Enjoyed watching the 5 week transition snapshots of the tank. Thanks for sharing that.

Don't know whether I should say this LF, or not. But I will & ask you to remember what an amateur I am with apistos, put that together with being being a worrier after my recents deaths and then add a grain of salt before you even start to take any notice of me. I spend a fair bit of time looking at the belly shape of my dwarfs now & I looked closely at your 2nd apisto female. When I trace along the underside of her belly from her anal fin, to me she has an ever so slight bump where her anus is. It is bearly there and is probably nothing at all - just the angle of the shot & what not. But I mention it only so that you can watch what is happening there. I's sure she is fine & I hesitated to mention, as I didn't wanted to worry you for no reason. Matty didn't mention it, and he would have spotted it if it were a problem.

Apart from that, you have a pair of really nice looking girls there.

Cheers
TW
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Thanks all for the input

Matty - yeah, I hope that the tank will just keep on improving. I am glad that it gives me so little trouble and that I am able to change little bits here and there without upsetting the whole system.

Frank - I assume you are talking more about My 29G Tank, right? Your pointers are for sure correct, but I guess my issues there are related more to none or very irregular fertilization as this used to work in the past with gravel and laterite and now just doesn't fly anymore with Eco. This stuff is too good to be neglected

Robyn - good point, and ever since you described the symptoms on your Apistos I am keeping an eye open for similar issues on mine. I have to say that I have not noticed anything on the females in this tank until you pointed it out (and it really seems strange in the picture), but I guess the fact that I treat the tank now should help.

Thanks to all yet once again,

Ingo


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hey ingo - i just want to point out (because i'm a glass half-full kinda guy) that there is a lot more good going on with that second female than bad - clear eyes, great colouring, open, clean finnage, good red colouring of the flesh visible near the gills (highly oxygenated). i hardly think you need worry about that bump - it could be that she's hungry, has just aborted eggs, or a dozen other benign problems.

no disrespect to robyn, but i think when we worry TOO much about our babies, and treat them with kid-gloves, we actually have more troubles....

justin
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Thanks Justin,

You know, I was wondering myself how the females will fare now with regards to egg production. They must have gotten used to the idea that having eggs is ok, given that the male was present.

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 21

Not much has happened during this week, I am still debating with myself when and if I should get another male Apisto. I treated the tank with Metro 3 times, I think that should be enough.

Here is the tank before the water change:

Attached Image:

Just Before Water Change



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And here is the tank after the water change. As you may notice, the hygro is still there but I trimmed it down a little (cut off the bottom). I just did not have any other plant that I could place there.

Do you have an idea what I could use in its place?

Attached Image:

After Water Change



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Here is the tank straight from the back. I removed some more of the micro swords on the left (added them to the 20G) and added some more Pearl Grass:

Attached Image:

Back View



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And here is, for the fun of it and to interest Matty in my tank, the back view in an angle.

You can see how crowded the way right side is, with the hygro being blown by the current over the micro sword group.

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Back Angle



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
And here is another closer look at the Bolbitis. As you may notice, there are quite a few bubbles under the leaves. These are obviously from the water change, but during the week in the evenings I have even more bubbles there as well. Unfortunately, I think they come from the CO2 that is being blown throughout the tank and collects there.

Anyway, that's it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:



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OK,

I saw them already last week in the LFS, but they are labled Double Red. So this afternoon I went back and asked, and without me giving a hint I was informed that they are Orange (I guess Flash).

Should I treat the tank with Metro?????

Here is the male

Attached Image:

Male Apisto



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And here is the female. Should I worry about having 3 females now? I could not resist. But that's it, all better goes well.

That's it for right now, more later.

Ingo

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Female Apisto



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Here is the last shot of the couple in the bag. As you may notice, she has lost all yellow and now has an almost white base coloration. I am sure that once she gets settled the color will come back.

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Apisto Couple



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Please Look At Previous Page For Weekly Tank Update

And here is a shot of her after she has been released into the QT. She was exploring the tank and the smaller male Platy actually swims onto her side once in a while and seems to make mating attempts

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Female I



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And here she is from the side. I hope that the experts amongst you (Justin ? ) will ok her as healthy. She seemed not shy in the tank at the LFS and so far she is not shy in this tank either. But, she is smaller than the two in the 40G. Should I worry about her as the third female in that tank?

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Female II



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And here is a first look of the male after release. I have to say that now his fin coloration seems more red than it did at the LFS and in the bag. Maybe it is a double red after all?

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Male I



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Last shot of tonight, male from the side. Again, could the experts please tell me if they think the fish is ok?

And one more time:

Should I treat the tank with Metro???

That's it for now,

Ingo

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Male II



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Ingo you dog! Way to resist the urge
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Thanks Mike,

Yeah, I could not resist, what can I say

I sure hope it doesn't come back to haunt me. I don't know how many additional setbacks I am willing to take with Cacs. Somehow I thought they are easier than viejitas, but they never gave me trouble (ok, having 3 males where 2 should be females is not the fish's fault )

Ingo


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That's nice that they finally gave you a female along with your male. I'm not sure that I'd treat with metro or not. Since it can't hurt anything, and you already have it, why not right? They do look a bit skinny, but it could be that they just need to be fed a bit. It's nothing drastic or indicative of parasites IMO. They look pretty healthy by my eye.



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Thanks Matty for the heads up on the Apistos. I think I have seen another male/male pair of other Apistos in a different tank at the LFS as both fish looked totally alike . Well, maybe they had 2 pairs in the tank and I only saw the boys, but usually they don't do that.

So, what do you think about the 40G being able to handle 3 females and the male?

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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LF,

1.) Yes, treat with metro

2.) 1m, 3f - That sounds perfect, actually - that's a real harem now Nice pick up!


Back in the saddle!
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Thanks NowherMan6

Yeah, I know that 3 is a good number, but I am wondering:

2 hills and 3 girls

That might lead to some fighting as previously both girls had fry within one week and each needed a hill for protection. So, what if that happens now with 3?

Well, maybe I should be more concerned with the health of the new pair in the first place.

Ingo


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gorgeous looking pair, ingo!

as already stated, 3:1 is a great ratio FOR THE MALE - you may find a bit of bickering between the two lesser-ranked females. and, they definitely need more potential breeding spots. i always try to have one more nest than there are females. so, get those film canisters out!!! hehehe.

good luck with them all - a couple of feeds of live food if you've got it to beef them up and all should be well.

justin
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks Justin,

I was wondering when you will peek in

Glad to hear that you think they are ok. Now, where do I get film canisters from? I haven't bought a conventional film in quite some time.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
I have a ton that I could mail to you but they smell like chemicals. I dont think I'd use them.

Maybe get one of those coconut caves and cover it in bolbitus? Just disguise it. It's more natural than matty's PVC pipe paradise...


Back in the saddle!
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Very nice LF

He still looks like an orange flash, rather than a red to me. I can see nothing that looks unhealthy, they look really nice & the male should enjoy his harem.

Re the metro. Who really knows the answer to that. Like Nowhere said, it can't hurt. I think you said the great Bensaf once said to treat apistos every 6 months as a precaution.

BTW Justin, no disrespect taken. Yes I may worry too much, but all 4 of my apistos died in short order - 3 of them with parasites (at times you could even see the tip of the worm hanging out). They weren't even in the same tank & never had been together. The 4th had suspected TB It has left me a bit nervous of them.

Cheers
TW
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Has someone gotten a little offended?

Anyway, no space for coconut huts in the 40G, would look somewhat out of place. I will use the Metro tonight, for 3 sessions until Friday. Then I can clean it out on Saturday with the water change.

Ingo


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OK,

Ready for your daily dose of Apisto News?

Here is the female tonight. She has colored back up quite a bit. Her finnage also looks like she is in good shape.

Attached Image:

Female Hunting For Food



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And here is the male. He seemed a little picky during feeding. He neglected almost all freeze dried brime shrimp and freeze dried bloodworms. Eventually he had eaten a few bites. I see him roaming the tank quite frequently and picking up stuff, so I guess he doesn't like what I have on the menu

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male



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Offended, Hope you didn't mean me. I am happy as larry at the moment, with about 30-40 krib fry in my tank

Hope that once your harem is joined up, you here the flipper, flapper of little fins too

All looks to be going well for you. Nice looking apistos (and tank too)

Cheers
TW
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No, he meant me, shaking fish. I'm not really offended, it's all in good fun



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Ingo I really regret not getting that pair myself. I must have walked past that tank a dozen times and peeked in everytime. Ah well!!! Seriously PM me for my number. Next time you're at the store, let me know. I've got friends that will take care of you. Retail prices are for the insane!
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I've got friends that will take care of you
Now that sounds scary

Will they make me an offer that I can't refuse?

I will keep your connections in mind, thanks Mike. Oh - btw - I am actually fooling myself into thinking that I got this pair for free as I bought it with my store credit. The fact that I received the credit for the males that I purchased a while back (thinking they were females seems to slip my mind

Robyn - Thanks for the compliments, when can we see more about your fry and the lost fin?

Ingo


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I'm going to update the 23.7G tank now. Thanks for asking.

Cheers
TW
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Robyn,

Your fry looks good, there must be at least 20 of them.

With regards to the new Apisto in my QT, the male makes me worried a little. He seems to be a picky eater. During the last two days he barely touched the food, maybe eating 3 bites of whatever I feed (last night was flakes). I know how it looks when a fish is sick and does this "pretend eating" in order not to be detected as sick by the other fish in the tank, but he does not do that either. He is picking "stuff" of the ground and eats it, but that is - as far as I can tell - not part of the food I add to the tank. Maybe I have so many little critters in there that he is too full to eat. Or he really does not like my offerings. I would hate to have to go to a special menu just for him.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 08-Nov-2006 11:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Yeah, the special menu is a pain. I had to to that for my bitas. No matter how I tried to disguise the pellets or flakes (by soaking first in blood worms) they would never eat them. If one accidentally went in their mouths, they either spat it out or expelled it out their gills.

For some strange reason, my female krib is doing the same. I cannot get her to take flake or pellets. The male will take them, but not her. All the nigerian reds take pellet with no problem. These finicky eaters are a pain.

I hope you don't have to go the special menu route, but if you do, I found frozen easier than fresh. Others swear you can wean them onto pellets, by soaking the pellets or flakes in defrosted bloodworms. Maybe give it a try. Didn't work for me, but apparently worked for some others. Good luck.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 08-Nov-2006 13:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
My problem with food that is frozen, or even still alive, is called "my wife" . I probably would have to buy my own freezer for it (which I have been thinking about, some small mini freezer).

Ingo

EDIT: how do you feed frozen food in the first place? Do you put it in the microwave to defrost?


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Post InfoPosted 08-Nov-2006 17:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Wait - you've never fed frozen food?

Well I take out the amount I am going to use for feeding and put the rest back in the freezer, then defrost in some warm water. Once thawed I like to strain it out. Along with my own concerns, I've read an article in one of the more popular fish related magazines about how the juices contain nasty fish killing bacteria sometimes, even in the major brands of frozen foods. My other problem is the amount of nutrients in that liquid which obviously goes uneaten can lead to problems, especially in the SW tanks, but also in the FW planted setups. So after I strain and rinse with tap I either put it right into the tank or put it back into some water to feed intermittently.



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Post InfoPosted 08-Nov-2006 20:47Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Wait - you've never fed frozen food?

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