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Here is a detail from the back view, with a little less light, that shows you that the plants are all slightly different, unlike Hair Grass where one sprout looks just like the next. Or at least that is what I can see.

Attached Image:

Close-Up

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Here is a full view of the backside of the tank, with the see-through option into the 125G.

Rocks and even some wood that is placed on the ground (big piece, going all the way through the right Barteri group, serving as the base for that plant) are showing through, although the wood also may dissapear over time.

Attached Image:

Full Back View

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And lastly, although I cannot take any credit for it, a shot of a Barteri flower. I find it a good sign if the Anubias that is coming in already has a flower, makes me more certain that it will have additional ones in the future.

That is it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Barteri Flower

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Weekly Tank Update - Week 5

As has been well documented during the last 2 pages, this week has seen a major change in the tanks plant selection. Albeit the results concluded in mixed reactions, at best, I like the new look and will keep on modifying it as time goes on, but first I will let it settle to see how the plants will grow. The one plant that is more likely than not to be removed soon is the Mother Barteri, it is just too big for this tank and its positioning doesn't help the cause either. In its place should go about 15 to 20 Nanas.

I will spare you from an army of additional pictures, you have seen it all in the last few pages.

Here is a front shot from today,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Week 5 - Full Shot

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Well,

Here is one close-up of a change that I just performed. As the CO2 hose came off yet again, by now an almost daily thing, I changed the suction cup and holder. I used a true airline sucktion cup and placed its holder directly at the end piece of the tube, where it is shoved over the diffuser. I was a little worried that I may break the glass, but I was fed up enought to do it anyway.

Ingo

Attached Image:

New Diffuser Holder Position

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I probably missed this somewhere, but why didn't you put the mother barteri on the right DW which is a lower position and the nana on the left (or is that just an illusion)

Well it sounds like we are having the same problem with the tubing. I've done what you are doing now and it still came off or it doesn't necessarily come off but the co2 escapes at the union of tubing and glass and never makes it to the diffusor. I guess I'll try Nowher's suggestion of heat or go back to Lee's Stealth Black Tubing. I never had the issue with that tubing but it wasn't co2 quality so I went to the greenish and blueish silicone type tubing.
I've noticed an increase in BBA due to the fluctating co2 levels because of this.



My Scapes

The rocks have disappeared again ! I understand you want to highlight the wood, but the rocks will only help with that. Especially now.

What's happened now is that there is alawn creating a flat horizon and the wood appears to be sitting on that.

Some rocks or other plants emerging from the lawn will break up that flat horizon.

The Blyxa is in the wrong place, but then it always was. Blyxa is a plant that cries out to be placed in front of wood or rock to highlight the colors. Having it alone at the front was always a waste, more so now has it's simply disappeared.

Shame the Fern was so small. it will change things once it grows in.

Don't be down hearted. It's a very nice tank , just a few little tweaks and it will be even better.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

The black sand can work in some cases. It can work with petrified wood as the wood is a brighter color.

In the tank the ADA old dark wood would simply disappear and fade into the black sand. IMHO. This is not to say I was or was not sober then.....or now

Bear that in mind now. Some the branches resting on the substrate will look real good cutting into the lawn. The dark wood against the bright green. Everybody wins

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Don't be down hearted. It's a very nice tank , just a few little tweaks and it will be even better.

Well, for sure the tank will receive some tweaking, that was in the plan all along. The Barteri (on the left) sits much higher up than the Nanas (on the right) as the long piece of wood (that stretches out over the substrate towards the mid back of the tank) is rather high, with the cave below it and all. The Blyxa may move at some point, right now it is in its current spot because it was one of the few that got some ground light when in the growout phase and I would like it to develop some roots first (darn floater).

Ingo

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LF,

I have been kind of peeking in here every now and then to see what has been going on and trying to come up with something to say about your tank. Right now here are my feelings about it.

Things are gone in the jungle of plants once again as others have already stated. Adding in taller rocks would be nice to get them above the grass. I am not so sure I like the Anubias with your wood. Personaly I think it is too much wideness of leaves which takes away from your very nice branches of DW. Just my two cents. Feel free to stop by my log and beat up on my tank too!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Ingo,

My two cents: I think you're right about the mother barteri, the leaves are too big for this tank and it throws off the perspective. A large plant like this works wonderfully in keithg's 90 gallon tank, but for a low 40 breeder it's too much. A big mass of java ferns may look good in its place.

See, part of the challange of this tank is that it's viewable from all sides, meaning you can't just build up stem plants in the back to highlight the dark wood and show it off. I think it may help do do what Bensaf suggested in my little 4 gallon, tie some moss, java or otherwise, onto that long branch sticking out, that way there'll be some contrast. Maybe some christmas moss, since it'll hang down more than I think java would.

In understand what bensaf is saying about the rocks, but honestly I think it works fine without them, or I should say, it works very well with just wood. Your original layout vision is great, it's just a matter of bring it to life. It's just a matter of creating more "movement" with the substrate level, right now it does look a little flat. I feel like in your original vision you had a deeper valley in mind...

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Back in the saddle!

Weekly Tank Update - Week 6

As you all know, if you follow my 125G log, this week had a 2 day power outage. Plants seemed to have survived ok, I see some dying micro swords and a few Anubias leaves came off. I don't know if the latter is based on the lack of light or shipping and handling, but at least one rhizome seems to be melting.

Here is the tank before the Water Change

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Before Water Change

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Some bad stuff happened during the water change, the entire wood group on the right fell apart. After loads of cursing and a few attempts, I finally managed to create a new one that seems to be a little more stable.

I know it is not the prettiest, but I am too busy overall to care.

Attached Image:

After Water Change

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Here is a look at that new grouping from the other side of the tank. I know, no sign of a hill and what not, also the overwhelming amount of micro swords and what not, but that is what it is for now.

Attached Image:

Back View

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Seems like you came through in this tank ok. You don't mention the otos, but I assume they made it (or you would have mentioned it).

Hope things settle at work.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Robyn,

Yes, all Otos are accounted for, even after my wood structure fell apart

There seems to be some signs of damage to the Anubias, one Nana is on its way out and certain areas (in the region where there was some damage done during transport) of the Barteri are turning brown as well

And the micro sword is not yet sending out any runners, hopefully it will settle soon. I could see this plant as a nice ground cover in the 125G, maybe I will move it there as all of you don't think it fits in this tank anyway .

Ingo

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LF,

Sending out runners? Where are they going to go? It looks like your tank is chopped full! Could you take a top down picture for us?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

maybe I will move it there as all of you don't think it fits in this tank anyway .

I actually think it looks good, I just reacted with surprise because it isn't what I thought you were going to do. As Wings stated the Microsword is planted heavily and it will probably need to be thinned out in short order.
What I think would look nice in the tank if you could somehow get those two hills to stay up higher so the rocks show more (maybe bigger rocks) and then have the microsword come down the hill with a rock here and there.

My Scapes

Sounds good tetratech, I am sure there will be plenty more changes to come before we will be all happy with it (and I am not happy, but by far not as unhappy as I am with the 125G).

There are actually quite some gaps between the plugs of micro swords that can be filled up with runners. I think this plant would make a great carpet in the big tank, but of course it may not grow there, given that it likes finer grained substrate.

Ingo

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Ok gang,

If you follow my 125G log then you know that I traded some of my Espei in at the LFS for store credit. And of course, a credit is worth nothing if you don't buy anything for it.

So I did

I announced it a while ago, and now I would like to introduce you to Mr. and Mrs. Apistogramma cacatuoides "Triple-Red".

Here is a picture of the female in the bag in the 20G QT.

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Female cacatuoides

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And here is a picture of the male, also in the bag. I had to pay a little extra to get them, but they are supposedly easy Apistos to have, don't give you too much trouble, and on top of it are nice to look at.

The 40G with the natural cave created by the driftwood on the left will house them well

I don't have any additional shots yet, as I am still acclimating them and the lights in the tank are off already. Once again, they are first going into the QT.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male cacatuoides

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Very nice, Ingo. It's funny I was in the LFS the other day and I had my trigger on the finger and was going to purchase a pair of those and I simply don't have anywhere to put them. I would have to get rid of some fish to accomodate them. Part of me would like to house them in my 12g with about 5 or 6 CRS, but I have that nice school of gold tetras.



My Scapes

LF - did you get them from AF? If you did then you shouldn't have a problem breeding them - last week I witnessed some obvious mating-type behavior by those two...

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Back in the saddle!

They look really nice Ingo. I hope you enjoy them.

Now we can compare cacatuoides notes. Yours are very similar looking to mine. Your female looks bigger than mine, but that may just be the shot. My male is easily twice my female's size. Your male is very similar to mine, except that the black & red pattern shown on the rear of your male's tail, is strongly repeated on my male's anal fin as well. Also my male's dorsal fin is red all the way through - nothing there that is not either red or black (no clear). My male's tail is divided into 2 colour patterns. Close to his body the tail is strongly patterned red/black & as it reaches the 2nd half of his tail it is strongly yellow/black. I wonder if your males colouring will become like mine or if these are the variances. Does your male have a slight blue outline to his lower lip?

Good luck & I hope they are in very soon.

Enjoy.

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

Thanks to all 3 of you for the input, I guess that means that you basically approve of that fish.

NowherMan6 - indeed I bought them at AF, and it must have been the pair that you saw, as they are in the store for about 4 weeks already. They have been in the tank with some younger discus and pencils. Also - when Tom and I went to the tank we first couldn't find the male as he was hiding in the fake plants, which - Tom said - is usually a sign of an agressive female during breeding. So your statement confirms his assumptions, awesome.

Robyn - Well, if mine don't color up some more then I assume that I don't have a pure Triple-Red set here. I was reading up on these fish a few weeks ago and if I remember that right then fry of Triple-Reds are of varying color schemes, the blue print of regular cacs, red, double red, and triple red. Maybe mine are somewhere there in the mix. I guess time will tell
Also, my female is almost as big as my male (or - the male is just a little larger than the female), to me that means that the female is quite a bit older than the male who still has some growing to do while she is all grown up.

Tetratech - I hear you. I wish one could record the thinking process that goes through a hobbyists mind when he/she stands in front of a tank at the LFS that has a nice fish or fishes. In split-seconds, an attempt is made to shuffle existing fish around the tanks, try to see where these new ones could be squeezed in, and what not. Gladly, most of the time we can resist, otherwise all our tanks would be stocked like my 125G at Espei-Hay-Day.

Ingo

Edit: Robyn - Yup - blue line on lower lip, but I only saw it in the LFS, later he was too scared in the bag.

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I guess that means that you basically approve of that fish

Yep

Re: the fry, I've read the fry can be red, double red, triple red or orange flash & a mixture in the one brood, even if the parents are both confirmed as the same type eg double red, triple red, etc.

You wait till you see your male open his mouth. That is one big mouth on a little fish.

Maybe mine are somewhere there in the mix.

Who cares really what mix, as long as they are pretty & give their owner pleasure. Mine were sold as double red, but after reading up, I think they are triple red. Somewhere I read if tail, dorsal & anal fin are all red, then they are triple red. If tail & dorsal only are red, then double red.

But what the heck - they're pretty

Cheers
TW

Awesome Ingo, they are beautiful

When I was watching him it was the female that was hiding at first - he was going after his reflection in the tank like a betta Later she came out and he definetely made a few attempts to wrap his body around hers, and she was pretty accepting of it. Now, I'm pretty sure that's not necessarily the breeding act itself, but it seems like standard courtship behavior. Soon you'll have a harem!

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Back in the saddle!

Hey,

I am rich, rich, rich ( sounds familiar? )

If you saw them in the LFS, NowherMan6, then you remember maybe how much they cost , being not all that much cheaper than my Apisto viejita II pair.

Uh Robyn, we are going to have so much fun comparing notes, and all the arguments about what defines single, double, and triple reds .

Ingo

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I am rich, rich, rich

For the last time, you don't need to be rich to use ADA substrate!



Aaaanyway, that's pretty standard for set-pairs of apistos I think. If you go through a breeder online you'd pay maybe 12-15 for a pair, but then you have to add in 30 or so for shipping. It all evens out, just standard fare. They're hardy enough though, so I dont think it's a wasted investment.

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Back in the saddle!

LF,
What was the price tag on those guys? I was looking at some about a month a go at a fish store up north. I think their price was 14 per fish or 24 for a pair. Just wondering what it is like out your way.

Can't wait to see some more pictures. They are very nice fish. Someday I hope to get my hands on some but that might mean another tank set up. Oh darn....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Let's see Wings,

Trade in 30 Espei for $1 a piece, shell out another $20 = $50.

Interestingly, the two times I traded in Espei I always ended up with using the money to buy Apsitos.

Ingo

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and all the arguments about what defines single, double, and triple reds

Noooo, no arguments, just fun comparing notes. I'm very glad you have this fish, it is like confirming that my choice to buy this fish was a good one, now that you have the same fish.

I would like one or the other of ours to have babies though, to see if it is true that you can get all the different variants from one pair.

For the last time, you don't need to be rich to use ADA substrate

I am living proof of that fact, that's for sure.

Have fun

Cheers
TW

... is like confirming that my choice to buy this fish was a good one, now that you have the same fish

Hey, just because I have the fish doesn't mean that it was a good choice, although I am flattered by your statement.

I selected this one for a few reasons:

- A rather pretty Apisto
- One of the easiest to maintain
- One of the lesser shy ones
- The easiest to breed

At least that is what I was reading about them.

Ingo

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Tetratech - I hear you. I wish one could record the thinking process that goes through a hobbyists mind when he/she stands in front of a tank at the LFS that has a nice fish or fishes. In split-seconds, an attempt is made to shuffle existing fish around the tanks, try to see where these new ones could be squeezed in, and what not. Gladly, most of the time we can resist, otherwise all our tanks would be stocked like my 125G at Espei-Hay-Day.

I would love to put another tank in my "Fish-Kitchen" but I believe the inhabiants would end up on my dinner plate.
My wife has been a good sport allowing two tanks down there. So if I want more fish some will have to go:
On the possible moving list are:

- 4 rummynoses
Great fish only lost one since I started my 72g and that was in the first 2 weeks of setup
- 4 Black Neons
All 4 have been with my since I started the 72g.
- 5 Pencilfish
Great fish, haven't lost any since startup
Problem with all these fish is the kinda blend in and at the same time make the tank look to chaotic. If I move these I might take my 8 gold tetras out of my 12g and use the 12g to house a pair of rams or apistos.




My Scapes

Hm,

I may be wrong tetratech, but I think to remember that the male Apisto's territory requirement is approximately 2 square feet, which would not be given in the 12G. On the other hand, I don't know what the consequence of less space would be, maybe more aggression towards the female, or maybe the complete intolerance of any other moving creature. Also, I don't know if this applies to all Apistos or only to some of them.

Ingo

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Some apistos are more aggressive than others. Borelli's and tri's are smaller and less aggressive - they may work better than cac's.

A pair of cac's would work in a 12, but the way tetra has his set up now, with little breaking up of sightlines and virtually no plant cover (other than on the substrate), may not be the best for them. If it was more jungle like I'm sure it would work.

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Back in the saddle!

Working or not,

Here are a few shots of mine from tonight, just for the giggles. When I came home they both were more or less in hiding on opposite ends of the tank.

Later they came out and scavenged the substrate for snails and other goodies.

Here is the female at work:

Attached Image:

Female I

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As you can see, it appears as even she has blue lips.

Here is a better side shot that also shows off her blue face markings:

Attached Image:

Female II

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In this head-on shot one can clearly see her lower lip. I didn't know that females have that too. Hopefully I did not get a male of a different species by mistake.

That would be a bummer...

Attached Image:

Female III

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And here is a head-on shot of the male.

Also visible is his clearly blue lip.

He is only a bit larger than the female, which in turn has the size of a grown-up, pretty much the one of my female viejita. The male is much smaller than the male viejita.

Attached Image:

Male I

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So, how was that again?

If the anal, dorsal, and caudal fin are red then it is a Triple-Red?

Hm, he has red in all three, but there seems to be at least some yellow at the base of the dorsal and caudal fins. I wonder if that still counts:

Attached Image:

Male II

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Here is another side shot of him, showing off a little more blue on his face.

From the base structure, he is slightly different from my male viejita as he has somewhat of a hump on his forehead. Is that normal?

Attached Image:

Male III

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Last but not least,

Robyn, didn't you mention that they have big mouths? I knew that from my viejita, but I was able to capture it on film (eh, digital image) for the first time. I guess that is what you need when you eat snails in one bite.

Or maybe he is just sleepy

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male IV

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very nice pics i have just plain orange tailed one that i got from a friend. their okay i guess... but yah anyway

Red on all 3 points, now if what I read is right, that makes him a triple. That's what LFS told you too, so it would seem to be right. Everything on him looks redder, now he's not in the bag. Your female is very pretty & has more markings than mine, plus mine is more yellow I think. No blue lips on my female.

That is a great shot of his open mouth. Love it. Your pictures are so good and clear. My tank lights currently off, but I'll check for a slight bump on head, but I've not noticed it previously.

Beautiful looking fish Ingo.

Cheers
TW

he has somewhat of a hump on his forehead. Is that normal

Looked more close at my males head & what I noticed is that above his mouth & up to his eyes he has ridges (looks a bit like when someone raised their eybrows & maybe gets those lines - but more like folds of skin. Then a very slight flattening & rises again after his eyes. I think yours looks normal.

I looked at my females mouth, & maybe I can see just a hint of blue on her lips. Not a solid blue line though - only just parts show a hint of blue (maybe). She has the basic same shape lip as him, but so much smaller that it is hardly noticable.

Did these guys feed easily or you?

Cheers
TW

Thanks bratyboy2 and Robyn,

As I stated in your log, Robyn, your male has more red than mine in the fins. Given that my male is barely larger than the female, there are two things I conclude:

- He is not grown up yet, but she is. So he still has time to color up until adulthood hits.
- Maybe your female isn't all grown up yet and that is why you cannot see the blue lip.

Feeding: I fed them for the first time last night (I don't feed fish on the day they come out of the bag, too stressful for them to digest well).

I started off with a tropical fish flake mixe (I alway crunch the flakes to be smaller). Both fish did not come to the surface where the 3 resident Platies were eating away, but quite a few flakes were sucked under by the current from the HOB and they ate these. Messy eaters, I may say, I would guesstimate that over half of the food is expelled from the gills, maybe a sign that they don't really like it (yet).

Next I added some freeze dried blood worms, but they all floated. I oberseved one piece going down and that one was first eaten by the female (and expelled right after) and then by the male, also expelled. At least that one particular piece was not to their likings.

Ingo

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Thought this link might interest you http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/apistogramma_cacatuoides.php.

Maybe this one too http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1437

But I bet you'll tell me you read these already, right?

Cheers
TW

You know Robyn,

I haven't seen either or link before, thank you very much. Sometime today, if I have an hour or two to spare, I will peruse these links and many others to identify more closely what I exactly have there.

BTW, did you see Theresa's pictures of her Cacs in the photo booth? I find the female to look completely different than mine.

Ingo

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so have you gotten them to breed at all... im waiting for mine to in my pool filter sand tank

Hi bratyboy2,

Well - if you read my entries then you must have seen that I only got them two days ago, so take it easy

Give them some time to settle, I am not in a rush. If they want to breed, then I will let them. If not, fine as well.

Ingo

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Weekly Tank Update - Week 7

A few things have happened during this week, none of which are very dramatic, but worthwhile mentioning anyway. I will get to these points at the appropriate detail shot, so bare with me.

To start, here is a shot from last weekend, for comparison purposes:

Attached Image:

Last Week

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And here is the tank from last night, after maintenance and water change.

The first thing you may notice is a different look of the Barteri, and with it more light to the front left section. The second, and last, thing you may see is a change of parts of the wood positioning of the left group:

Attached Image:

Latest Full Tank Shot

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Before the water change, I notice a small section in the tank, confined to two to three leaves of the micros sword, on which thread algae (the longer kind, maybe staghorn) started to grow.

This area is right next to the spot (the rock to the right in the main shot) where I feed the Otos some cucumbers. I believe this is related. The one slice I added this week was completely eaten within 2 days.

Attached Image:

Some Threads

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I am rather certain that my water quality is currently a little worse than it used to be. The reason for this is that quite a few parts of the micro swords are deteriorating, most likely an unavoidable side effect of forming small plugs of them when planting as some sections of these plugs may get damaged or not planted properly.

Here you may be able to see some brown parts on the lower area of the swords:

Attached Image:

Swords Issue

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The next, and by far biggest issue of this week, was the discovery that the Barteri is disintegrating in two spots where it had sections that broke off during transport to my house.

The first sign was a dying leaf about a week ago, and this week another one followed and required me to take a closer look.

Attached Image:

Dying Barteri Section

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When I touched the area of the rhizome in which the leaf was dying I could feel that it was all mushy. I took the scissors and attempted to cut the rhizome back, under water. Now that was fatal. First of all, the scissors were not sharp enough to get a clean cut. Secondly, the whole Barteri came lose. Third, the wood of that group started to shift in the process

This is, in general, the one thing I don't like about lots of small braches that form a group, they shift all the time. Last week it was the right group, this week the left.

Back to the Barteri, I had to take it out of the tank, trim 2 sections way back, tie it to a rock, and place that one onto the left hill. This concluded in the new look of that area.

I don't know if that was enough to stop the disintegration of the plant, we will see. Here is a close-up of the group:

Attached Image:

Left Group

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And for completion purposes, here is a shot of the right group.

Oh, almost as important, but not captured in a picture, I discovered a life form on the tank glass, approximately 1 to 2 mm long, skinny, white, and moving quite fast. Copepods of some sort? Dangerous? How come?


Attached Image:

Right Group

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I think these animals have come in with the last plant order, I have to say that the micro sword was not the cleanest plant I ever received. Do you remember that I mentioned the mini rain worms that I discovered in the bucket after cleaning the plants (like tubifex worms)? Another passenger group that came in were snails, most likely common pond snails. For now they are not too bad yet, and in a few weeks I will have fish in the tank that will appreciate them as live food.

Attached Image:

Snail

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The last 2 shots are commited to the future residents of this tank, my new Apistos that I purchased as part of a trade in of 30 Espei from the 125G. These Apistos are currently in the 20G QT, but they are displayed here as this is their tank in the long run.

Here is the female:

Attached Image:

Female

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EDIT: Make sure to read the Weekly Update on the previous page, I have a few questions

And here is the male. So far, they stay mostly out of each others way in the QT. Once in a while the male slowly comes closer to the female until he is at her side, then he gives her a nudge and she swims away, not in a rush though. This, I believe, has nothing to do with mating, I believe he would like to occupy the hiding spot that she has at that moment as this never happens in the open water.

Attached Image:

Male

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Algae: Give it a big shot of Excel. Should turn red and go away.

White things: I think there was a thread about this not too long ago.

Female Apisto: Is that a snail on the righthand side eatting the wisteria?



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

did you see Theresa's pictures of her Cacs in the photo booth? I find the female to look completely different than mine.

Yes I did & I don't recognise my female amongst her photos either.

I tried hard to get a good shot of my girl to show you, but all turned out poor. Rather than clutter up your log, they are in my log http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/28921.2.htm?38# if you want to look. There are 3 of them, individually not very good, but maybe after you've viewed all 3, you may get an idea of how my girl looks.

Wish I could help on your other queries, but I know the more knowledge plant nerds will be able to help.

Re: breeding behaviour. I've noticed with both my apistos, that when the female is in the mood she tilts her body sideways at the male, flashing her belly at him. First noticed it with my bita girl, as she quite a passionate girl (either hates her mate or loves him) then watched for the same in the cacs. My female cac is doing it tonight, but the male is not taking the hint at the moment.

I wonder if you will see this tilting to the side movement of the female. Does your other apisto girl do it at all?

Cheers
TW

Wish I could help on your other queries, but I know the more knowledge plant nerds will be able to help

Hey, I'm no nerd. I play softball, coach soccer and bowl on a mens bowling team

Any who. This all started after you removed all those "weed" from the tank. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Sloooow moves. I don't believe in big changes to a tank at once. Tut, tut, none of your feable excuses about floating plants, yada, yada, yada.

Mimic nature, everything happens slowly. Tanks have to adjust to differences in plant mass and fish load. There is wiggle room off center, but there has to be balance.

I doubt if the cucumber feeding caused the algae. I know you and Robyn like to feed the little guys, but I don't think they need anything extra. I noticed alot of droppings in the tank. I do drop algae wafers in my tank from time to time because I'm in short supply of the stuff.



My Scapes

Hey,

I am not complaining about the algae (yet, ), I was simply stating that it was there. And it was in only one spot, too much of a coincidence to be not related to the cucumber (and maybe the bunch of poop that was nearby as all Otos must have eaten at least their own body weight in 2 days).

Wings, the snail is not eating the leaf per say, the leaf just happens to be in bad shape from the replant (didn't get good light before replant, was mixed in with Moss) and a snail just happened to eat on it.

Robyn, yes, my other girl does that as well, at least once in a while. I am not sure if this is a mating thing though. I would assume that the belly area of a fish is one of its most vulnerable areas. I assume that offering this area to another fish is a form of submission in general, showing that the other fish is accepted as the boss. Other animals do the same thing by offering their throat.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well, that is a true bummer, I am so mad

The male Apisto is dead, I just found him in his cave. I assume his "hiding" was not a sign of mating or what not, he must have been sick. I will call the LFS tomorrow to see what they would have to say as even Tom, the main fish guy, found it a little odd that he was hiding in that tank (but he assumed it was because of mating stuff).

This is the worst nightmare, now I only have a female left, grrrrr

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sorry to hear about your loss. I lost a fish yesterday that has not been recorded in my log yet so I know it sucks. Look at it this way. Maybe the LFS will hook you up with a new male and throw in a female for super cheap? One can only hope though. Best wishes!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I'm so upset for you Ingo. I hope they will offer you another male - you had him for such a short time. Either that, or they refund you & take back the female. My fingers are crossed for another male though.

I felt close to these fish of yours. My heart dropped when I read your post. That really sucks.

Cheers
TW

Sorry to hear about the fish. I'm sure the store will do right by you. I never thought the fish looked great in the pictures, but I couldn't put my finger on it.



My Scapes

Ingo, don't be upset when I say this, but looking closely at pics of the male, I can maybe see what Tetratech is saying. I may be imagining it, but does the male look like his body is too curvy? If you can see what I think I can see (too curvy body) maybe you can take the pics to LFS as justification for a replacement pair.

When I bought mine, each mated pair was in a sep. tank. Was that the same where you bought them? If so, maybe you could argue that they take your female back & replace with a complete new mated pair. If they weren't paired up in this way, put your case forward for a replacment male. If you are a regular cusotmer, hopefully they will value your custom enough to oblige. Those few days you had him - it's just not fair to be now stuck with a lone female.

Cheers
TW

The algae looks like what some folks call carpet plant algae. I think it's a form of Utriculria.

It just seems to get into thick carpets of plants. I always had a problem with it with hairgrass. Never found a way to get rid of it except plucking it out. It never spreads beyond the base of carpet plants.

Sorry but the only cure I found was removing or seriously thinning the hairgrass.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf - thanks for the info on the carpet algae, I will keep that in mind when it starts to spread. The particular section displayed in the photo was the only one in the tank that has been infected so far, and that part was easily pulled out, so right now I am clean again.

All others - thanks for the support on the dead Apisto, it still upsets me. The outlook lof a replacement is rather dim and most likely costly as well, here are some points:

- The LFS has a big sign that says "No guarantee for fish"
- The LFS has at most (if at all) one pair of each species of Apistos (with the occasional exception), and I bought the one Caca pair
- The LFS fought me when I claimed that I got a sick Pearl Gourami a while back, I had to argue like mad over a $5 fish to get it refunded
- Online offers of fish are also for pairs only, I don't know if I am into the idea of using both "hills" in the tank as shelter for 2 females
- Online offers are usually young adults and I have a fully grown female at home

Nevertheless, I will give the LFS a call today and tell them what happens, then I usually get the spiel "bring in the fish and a water sample", and of course I threw out the fish (no freezer entry allowed - wife).

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
Your not exactly a typical customer that loses a fish due to poor water quality and besides your Published
If all this fails tell them one day their gonna get a visit by a mysterious man in a trench coat who goes by the name of NOWHER

Switching to your plants. I had microsword along time ago back when I was probably a "BigFish" or something. You can't trim the tops is the correct. It's like any other sword plant.

My Scapes

Yes tetratech, you are right, I am not a typical customer. Let's see how far this will get me, I will keep you guys posted on the outcome of the phone call.

You know, I was looking at the micro swords yesterday and wondered about the same thing myself: "what would happen if I trimmed off the tops?" I am sure it would look nice, a neatly trimmed lawn in the tank. But seriously, what would be the consequences? Would the whole leaf die?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Funny thing about water testing. O.K. so you bring your sample in like some poor little kid who lost his goldfish and the LFS employee who probably isn't old enough to baby sit your kids let alone your fish, tells you it's high on nitrAtes that's why your fish died. Then you start explaining the who hi-tech, hi-fert, co2 planted tank thing and

My Scapes

The one time when I brought a water sample to the LFS, a long time ago, I measured all values before bringing it in, this was a low tech tank (29G) and all values were 0. I was told that I have a tiny amount of Ammonia (or Nitrite, don't remember) and that was why my Neons died

Tiny, as in not detectable, and they use the same kit (or worse) than I do.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey*shakes fish at LF and Tetratech*!

I'll stand up for the LFS employee, being one myself, and plenty old to babysit a couple of snot nosed kids. First we don't check for nitrAtes, as that is very rarely a cause of death from costomers, seriously. If it is you can tell from the pH which is at like 2. Ammonia, nitrIte, and pH is what we test. We ALWAYS either give cash back to the costomer for their purchase, if the water looks like crap, or get them a new fish. Our guarantee states that you have a week if you bring the receipt, the fish, and a seperate water sample. The water sample shouldn't be used to blame the costomer, but to determine if another fish goes home, that's acceptable. But lets be honest here, try going into wal-mart or something and ask for a refund without the product. That's a nobrainer. They won't give you anything but a laugh. Fish stores however are expected to still give money back. This is silliness, and something I have a beef with our store, because we will give money back without proof that they bought the fish at our store or that the fish even died. Sometimes you get an honest guy like LF that really lost his fish and tossed it, but most of the time I KNOW we are getting screwed.

Sorry this all comes from a year+ of getting harassed by costomers. Once I was even told that I shouldn't work there because I didn't know anything about one of the rarer fish we had in the store(the costomer obviously didn't know either, why ask right?). Like I should know everything about all the fish in all 320 tanks we have.

[/rant]

but still see what you can get them to do, we'd give you money back, or a new fish without even blinking an eye. AND we never sell our apistos as pairs.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

I would love to shop at your store, and to be helped by you would be my pleasure. As to my LFS:

- we'd give you money back, or a new fish without even blinking an eye. No No

- AND we never sell our apistos as pairs. No No

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well first off, my trenchcoat days are over, sorry i can't help you there LF.



But keep in mind Apisto Cac. is a harem breeder. Adding another M/F should work, unless you just don't want the dynamic. The females may fight a bit at first but you have plenty of room in that tank, I don't see it being a problem. The choice is yours, obviously, but a new male would gladly take to the old female for breeding purposes, it's just in their nature.

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Back in the saddle!

I'll stand up for the LFS employee, being one myself, and plenty old to babysit a couple of snot nosed kids. First we don't check for nitrAtes, as that is very rarely a cause of death from costomers, seriously. If it is you can tell from the pH which is at like 2.

Matty, I know you work in a LFS and this was not meant as a blanket statement for all stores so please don't take it personally, but it does happen, because it happened to me. The store was trying anything to not give me credit. And there are at times very young employees working there, but there are also older gentlemen as well. Even very seasoned LFS stores that specialize in saltwater fish, when I tell them I'm adding no3 to my planted tank they look my like I have 3 heads.

I put this in the "With Planted Aquaria throw alot of pricipals out the window (cycling, anerobic bacteria impact, nitrates, etc.)"

My Scapes

The idea of simply getting a second pair, and as such ending up with 1m / 2f, has crossed my mind. In detail, the considerations are:

- both females will set up breeding quarters, I would assume logically that they would be under or around the individual wood groups. As such both breeding spots in the tank are taken and don't leave space for another kind of "herder", like Rams.

- I am not sure about aggression between females when competing for one male. Assuming that a new pair would ultimately conclude in one female being younger than the other, this could become a problem.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK,

I have news:

I just hung up the phone from a talk to the LFS, with their senior fish guy. He remembered that the male was a little strange and had no issues giving me store credit for it. He even gave me options:

- return the female and get $50 credit
- get another pair (when available) and pay only for the female
- get another male only (when available)

Now, that was a nice and almost unexpected move on their end and puts my ranting to shame

So, what to do? I like the female, she has a very nice coloration and markings (except a yellow body though yet), but what if she would be sick too (behaves normal and feeds nicely)?

Thanks for informative input,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The pair cost $50. Were they established breeders? If so that's still a bit pricey. If that's a price for a mated pair(established as breeders) then I'd take the female back and get a new mated pair. If it's just a m/f pair then I'd keep the female if she seems healthy. That would be a ton of hassle to get her out of there.

And no offense taken, I just gotta back up the LFS once in a while. They always get bashed, so I gotta go and bash the costomer back....not that it was directed at you guys either. I'm sure you guys would be the 1 in 20(kind of a stretch, maybe 1 in 30-40) costomer that you are actually happy when they walk in the door.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ingo, that is good news. That's a hard one, now that you have CHOICES. I've heard that 2 females can, or can't work - it depends on the females personality & how tolerant she is of another female. As you will have lots of wood & plants to create visual barriers, you have a very good chance of it working & your tank is fairly big too.

Why don't you hold onto to the female until a pair arrives & then decide which female you like best, or if you want to keep both? Or is it likely to be too long a time till he gets more in? Or is it because you are worried the female will succumb to sickness too? If you are even a little worred about that last scenario, I would take her back now while you can, & start again with a new pair.

Anyway, that is great news.

Matty, the LFS you work at sounds like a great place to shop. Pity you're so far across the ocean from me. I hope you don't get too many customers taking advantage of your great policy.

I've had some really great LFS, who have bent over backwards & gone above & beyond, but my 1st LFS . Unusally, this LFS records all customer purchasers against your customer no on their computer - so they know what you've bought. I have bought 3 tanks from them & another one for my stepdaughter, with the associated gravel & what not. In February I bought 8 harlequin rasboras from them. In less than a week, all of them had died. They knew the purchase was from them. They tested my water & tried to find every way they could to say it was my fault, although he reluctantly said my water was fine (Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 & pH was 7.2). He said maybe it was the pH that killed them at 7.2 & very reluctantly, he credited my store account. I bought products with the credit, but never a fish from him again. Not because I thought his fish would all die, as I'm sure it was just one bad batch of fish. He made me feel I was a liar & maybe that I intentionally killed my fish. I wouldn't even mention to a LFS if a few died (unless they are costly apistos) - but all of them?????

Since then, I've found other LFS who I think give great service & look after me well. The moral of the story is that there are 2 sides in most situations & not all LFS are the same. Some are great, some not so great. Yours sounds great.

That's so good that you sell apisto as singles. Here you can buy rams, bolivians or african cichlids as singles, but apistos are very hard to find in Aus & are ONLY sold as pairs - that's if you can even find apistos at all.

Keep us posted on yours, Ingo.

Cheers
TW

OK gang,

Here is the update, but don't kill me for it.

So I call the LFS at night to see what they got, and although they ordered a pair of Triple-Red they did not get it in as the wholesaler told them it was in bad shape and didn't look good. Instead, they got a beautiful pair of what they call Double-Orange.

I was offered to wait, return the female, get a new pair, and what not, and decided on getting the double orange and bringing the female triple red back to the LFS. So, equipped with a fish bag, I marched downstairs to fish her out, but looking at this beautiful fish I could not do it. So I decided to keep her, for better or worse.

Well, I went to the LFS and the orange one looks very nice as well...

Anyway, here is the male (what can I say, I am a sucker)

Attached Image:

Male Double-Orange

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And just to tell you, they are so closely related that the fry of the orange has some triple red in it. Read THIS LINK for details on them, although they call them Orange Flash.

And here is the female:

Attached Image:

Female Double-Orange

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The male is still pretty young, but at least as big as the female (bigger, I think). Here is his first encounter with the resident female.

Oh oh

Attached Image:

First Encounter

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is his second encounter, this time he is showing off his nice orange finnage.

I hope he impresses her enough to be a possible mate.

Attached Image:

Second Encounter

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Not only he was visited by the resident female, the new female got to meet her as well. Scary, but nothing else than raised fins happened so far.


Attached Image:

Female Check-Out

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

As you know, my 20G QT is not that densly planted right now. So I stole a small flower pot from the wife, banged open the small hole a little, and placed it in the tank as an additional hiding spot.

Please let me know what you think, I have about 1h left before they come out of the bag, tell me if I should change something. And - what do you think about the 3 fishies now?

Here is a full shot:

Attached Image:

Tank with Fish in Bags

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF, how did I know this would happen...

I like them, they look good. And good idea leaving extra hiding spots. If anything maybe move the pot to one side or the other, and add another pot or two on the other side. Having it right in the middle may effectively establish someones territory in the middle of the tank, leaving the other with veyr little room on the side.

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

What can I say, the female Triple-Red looked at me and I could not let her go (sucker).

I would have to destroy the scape and in the process maybe mess up the water column (floating stuff currently in the Eco) to add pots to the sides. There is a good hiding spot below the heater in the right back, and another ok one on the left side of the tank by the wisteria and the rock.

Do you think this would do for one day? The store just got them in today and I don't want to reduce the water quality with floating crap (maybe even literally).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I would have to destroy the scape and in the process maybe mess up the water column (floating stuff currently in the Eco) to add pots to the sides

Um, very nice fish, but the scape is history, because
THERE'S A RED FLOWER POT IN IT.

I respectly request that this thread be moved to Cichlid Central

My Scapes

Well,

The tank that you see is not this tank - it is the QT. As such, if at all, that thread should be moved there

BTW, Tom from the LFS mentioned to me today that he thought the male didn't look all that good either, but he was hoping I could beef him up a little. We all know how that ended. On the other hand, he says this male is in good (excellent) shape.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK,

Last entry for today:

The fish have been introduced about 10 min ago. The room in which the tank is has had all lights off except for the 125G lighting, so it was pretty dark, but enough for me to peek on the events in the tank.

First the male was hiding, but then started to swim around. He encountered the triple red female first and displayed, but she didn't seem too impressed. At least she didn't attack him.

Next he found his double orange mate, there the display was way more intense, with swimming head to caudal fin (toe) next to each other, fins wide spread, and a nudge to make her move away (on purpose, or part of ritual, I don't know). No doubt he is working on the Boss role, we will see what the resident female thinks about that.

The two females have seen each other from the distance, but not up close yet. This actually for me is more scary than the male/female encounter, I am a little worried that the stronger one will seriously hurt or even kill the weaker one.

Then the 125G went dark too and I couldn't see anything any longer.

Good night,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Those Orange flashes are just gorgeous Ingo. He's so much nicer looking than you're other male - brilliant colour. Orange Flash is the name I know these by too.

You can get much smaller flower pots, the smallest I have are only 1.5inches deep & 1.75inches in diameter. You can get them in varying increasing sizes. These smaller ones can be much better hidden. If rocks can unintentially be hidden from view, then surely these small pots can too. They are hidden in my 23.5 & can't be seen. I expect yells of protest for this - but it will depend on if you need them for fishy safety really - that was what forced me to add them.

I still like the idea that someone (was it Rick?) gave you earlier in your 125G about using plastic black film cannisters with a hole drilled in the end. I started collecting these & was going to use them (you wouldn't even see these - they'd blend with the black eco & put plants around them). Not sure if LFS was right, but he told me to be careful just in case the plastic leached toxins. I don't see how it could, as I thought the plastic would be inert, but still, it has scared me from using them. What do you think - do you think it sounds like fact or nonsense.

Anyway Ingo, back to your fish. They are simply gorgeous. Glad they came in so quickly. The link/s I gave you also mentions them (as Orange Flash) and tells how the orange flash can have fry of all the red varieties too. BTW, that site you linked to is where I got all my advice for dealing with aggression in my apistos. Very helpful bunch, if you need specialised advice.

Look forward to hearing future breeding news

Have fun. Glad your day has ended in such a happy note.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Robyn for the comments on the new fishies. As it is still dark right now, I don't even know if they are still alive, but we will see (actually, I will find out no earlier today, except if I call the wife from work later on to go downstairs and check on them).

The pot - well, that is only a temporary solution. I compromised the "desgin" of this tank as it is primariy a QT and has to fulfill that purpose. Once (and if) all 3 survive for long enought (4-5 weeks) I will add them to the 40G and in there are certainly 2 good spots, one for each female, that will not require the addition of artificial hiding spaces.

When I added the pot I was scambling to find anything that I can use, and this was the smallest my wife had. I also looked into the toy collection from my children (evil me) to see if there is a smaller similar shaped container, but while doing so I thought about toxins leaching from plastic and decided against it. True or not, I don't know, but better safe than sorry. Film roll containers feel different when touched than children toys, but I could imagine that they are treated in some form, for example to reduce the built-up of moisture. But I am just guessing.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK, seems the toxins from plastic theory may have merit, as you also preferred to be safe, rather than sorry. I'll take that route also & remain safe. Thanks for the comments on that.

Cheers
TW

No problem Robyn, I am always glad to be able to state my opinion, even if it does not hold any merit

Let us keep our fingers crossed that this trio will live happily ever after, maybe tonight I can post a few shots of the guys in the tank.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Nice fish! I like the orange better than the reds... that is just me though...

Ahh off to hike to class in the heat!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Ingo, you constantly tease me with your pics. If it wasn't for an empty wallet, I would have setup a 40g planted tank of my own so sit beside my 120g monster tank. Pics look amazing. Are those guys from AF?

Yup Mike,

They are from AF, Tom was very helpful as the original pair of Triple-Red that I aquired last Thursday saw the loss of the male on Sunday and Tom was kind enough to agree that the male didn't look all that good in the LFS tank either and as such offered me all kinds of options.

So I opted to keep the female Triple-Red and go for a pair of Double-Orange (Orange Flash, if I am not mistaken) on top of it.

And - Midnight Madness is coming up soon, so maybe your wallet is full enough for this

Wings - have fun in the heat (and thanks for the comment on the latest addition)

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok,

So here is an update from what I have seen going on in the QT within the last 20 min.

First off, a list of all payers involved.

Let us start with the resident female, the Triple-Red, who is for sure the oldest of the gang:

Attached Image:

Triple Red Female

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Moving on to the new female, the Double-Orange, or should I call them Orange Flash? She is the smallest of all 3, but not all that much smaller than the male.

She stays mostly close to the bottom, but unlike the sick triple red she is out and about, on the right side of the tank:

Attached Image:

Double Orange Female

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And on to the boss man, the male Double-Orange. He is all over the tank as well, sometimes nicely colored while othertimes in his "I am scared" dark gray outfit.

His fins are still a little ragged, but if this is the only problem I will encounter then I am happy.

Attached Image:

Double Orange Male

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Unfortunatley, this picture shows what I observed in the tank, in particular during feeding when she ventured into other areas of the tank to grab a bite. He is threatening and attacking her, and she runs off, darn. Not always though, sometimes he is showing her his side first.

As a result, she didn't seem to have gotten a lot of food, but she got some at least.

Attached Image:

Double Orange Couple? Doesn't Look Like It

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

On the other hand, his behavior towards the Triple Red female is much different. Although he occasionally gives her a nudge on the side, it mostly looks like this:

Attached Image:

Orange Red Mix

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

As you can see, she is still at least his size, if not bigger. But, I assume he has made his choice (for now) and she doesn't seem to mind his flattering behavior too much, as can be seen in the next picture.

There was one occasion when it looked like he wanted to herd her into the pot, but I couldn't get a shot of it.

Attached Image:

Orange Red Mix II

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Check out pictures at bottom of last page

And, just because I find it a nice picture, here is the male chasing flake food into the flower pot.

Have fun,

That's it for now (dinner time),

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male in Pot

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

He is threatening and attacking her, and she runs off, darn

Remember my "sworn emenies". You never know how these things will work out - you know they are now parents.

Anyway, the colours are lovely. Makes me want to run out & buy the orange ones too.

Cheers
TW

Yeah, I remember Robyn, and that turned out well - so far

Actually, that behavior was the worst just after feeding, when fish in general claim their stake as they wish not to share any remaining food.

I actually fed some more, and this time I use SF Brime Shrimp and even my other female got her share for sure. And she was at mid-level, and the male did not make too much of a fuss.

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I actually fed some more

I'm listening





My Scapes

LF, quick, do a massive WC before he really gets mad!

Sounds like nice apisto behavior. Get one more female and you'll have yourself a nice colony!

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Back in the saddle!

Hey there

Chill tetratech, it is a low tech, medium light QT, no need to worry. Nevertheless, it gets weekly 50% water changes while new fish are in there.

It will be all right, no algae will appear, I promise

Ok, so, maybe a little

Ingo

EDIT: NowherMan6 -

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Chill tetratech, it is a low tech, medium light QT, no need to worry

O.K. carry on...splash....splash....ahhhhhh

My Scapes

hello ingo and gang,

it was me who posted a while ago about the film canisters for breeding apistos - and i can assure you they are inert. i am curently looking at my smallest tank, only thirty litres, with one pair of triple-red cacs and their 20 or so 5-day-old spawn...laid, fertilised, and hatched in a film canister.

in such a small aquarium i would know of any poisoning pretty quickly - but i've used the cannisters in a variety of contexts for over five years and never had toxin issues.

they are just so easy to position and hide, and are smooth, which the female seems to appreciate, and easy to clean in between spawnings. as i said previously, they are also small enough for the female to defend easily - a must if there are any potential egg-eaters in the tank.

anyhow, if you don't want to risk it, don't do it - but think of all the ornaments, plants, tubes and pieces of equipment in people's tanks already which are the same moulded plastic...

peace

justin

Justin,

Thanks for the input. I believe that your observation of film canisters is assuring that they are proper for tank use.

Conceptually speaking though, just because plastic on aquarium equipment is not toxic doesn't mean that other forms of plastic would be the same. Plastic comes in many chemical combinations, and on top of it some plastic products are treated afterwards with chemicals, for example to avoid fungus growth and what not. I could imagine that it makes sense to treat film cannisters so that they produce less condensation (although I have no idea how this would be done).

Plus, given that you are sooooo far away from where I am, who knows if the plastic components and treatments of film canisters during production is the same in, I would assume, very different production plants.

As a smoker that I am , just take cigarettes from the same brand produced in different countries and continents. They are sooo different in taste and intensity (although they all kill).

Justin, no matter what, your input is always appreciated, so keep it coming

Ingo

EDIT: and oh, Justin - how do you like the Double-Oranges?

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey Justin

You are not so far away from me - are you in Sydney? So I'm more likely to have the same type of film cannisters as you. Mine come from Kodak film - would that be the same as you use? How do you make them sink. I find that they float. I have thought about using aquarium safe silicone & attaching a lead fishing weight to the underneath to keep them down. How do you manage it?

Sorry to hijack your log with this question Ingo, but I haven't seen Justin in my log, so don't know how else to ask you Justin. Pls forgive.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Not only are you forgiven, I find the question very relevant for my log as well. If I ever should decide on using film canisters, it cannot harm to know how to handle them.

My guess would be to partially bury them.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Update on the Apistos:

Boy oh boy, he sure is a dominator. He basically takes position in the middle of the tank and confines the females one on each side. If they try to venture out then he is attacking them head first. He is in particular harsh on the younger female, the other one doesn't seem all that impressed by his attack but will eventually retreat to her tank side anyway. The Orange female, on the other hand, takes flight as soon as he comes close, and if she doesn't see him right away then an attack is unavoidable.

I also had to overfeed again, she was not able to get any food the first time around.

Should I be concerned?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I work in the plastics industry. Never thought I'd need it in a planted tank forum

Plastic won't leach anything into the water. Most plastic molded products use pretty much the same small group of plastic materials, there are just slight variations for color, pliability etc but it's basically the same small group of resins. Everywhere.

Plastic is not usually treated for anything. For the example of the film canister possibly being treated for condensation - well what do you think the foil wrapper the film comes in is for ?

Co2 will corrode some plastic,mainly the very soft ones used for airline tubing and sucker pads, over time. Co2 is relatively acidic (hence the pH drop). But even this won't release anything harmful to fish, normal waterchanges more then take care of it.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Plastic is not usually treated for anything. For the example of the film canister possibly being treated for condensation - well what do you think the foil wrapper the film comes in is for ?

Well, I expanded the options of possibilities from the material to the treatment based on a recent reading in one of the fish magazines. There, a question on why someone's pond fish died was concluded with the fact that he used a pool cover as the pond base rather than a pond liner. And pool covers (made out of plastic) are treated to minimize the settlement of algae. So here is a case of treatment for plastic.

But in any way, Bensaf, your insight into the plastic industry is for sure helpful and another reason to finally drop the concern over film canisters

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

greetings,

re: floating canisters: i make rock formations around them, jam them under driftwood, whatever it takes and whatever you like the look of. i did have a couple which were each glued to a small rock, which kept it sunk, then just built and planted round them. i'll try and take a photo some time of my current set-up, and post a link.

tankwatcher, i'll jump over and have a look at your log now and have a chat with you there rather than hijack ingo's thread.

justin

Chances are with the pool cover that it was used on a pool at one point and still had chemicals on it.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric