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So, how was that again?

If the anal, dorsal, and caudal fin are red then it is a Triple-Red?

Hm, he has red in all three, but there seems to be at least some yellow at the base of the dorsal and caudal fins. I wonder if that still counts:

Attached Image:

Male II

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Here is another side shot of him, showing off a little more blue on his face.

From the base structure, he is slightly different from my male viejita as he has somewhat of a hump on his forehead. Is that normal?

Attached Image:

Male III

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Last but not least,

Robyn, didn't you mention that they have big mouths? I knew that from my viejita, but I was able to capture it on film (eh, digital image) for the first time. I guess that is what you need when you eat snails in one bite.

Or maybe he is just sleepy

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male IV

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

very nice pics i have just plain orange tailed one that i got from a friend. their okay i guess... but yah anyway

Red on all 3 points, now if what I read is right, that makes him a triple. That's what LFS told you too, so it would seem to be right. Everything on him looks redder, now he's not in the bag. Your female is very pretty & has more markings than mine, plus mine is more yellow I think. No blue lips on my female.

That is a great shot of his open mouth. Love it. Your pictures are so good and clear. My tank lights currently off, but I'll check for a slight bump on head, but I've not noticed it previously.

Beautiful looking fish Ingo.

Cheers
TW

he has somewhat of a hump on his forehead. Is that normal

Looked more close at my males head & what I noticed is that above his mouth & up to his eyes he has ridges (looks a bit like when someone raised their eybrows & maybe gets those lines - but more like folds of skin. Then a very slight flattening & rises again after his eyes. I think yours looks normal.

I looked at my females mouth, & maybe I can see just a hint of blue on her lips. Not a solid blue line though - only just parts show a hint of blue (maybe). She has the basic same shape lip as him, but so much smaller that it is hardly noticable.

Did these guys feed easily or you?

Cheers
TW

Thanks bratyboy2 and Robyn,

As I stated in your log, Robyn, your male has more red than mine in the fins. Given that my male is barely larger than the female, there are two things I conclude:

- He is not grown up yet, but she is. So he still has time to color up until adulthood hits.
- Maybe your female isn't all grown up yet and that is why you cannot see the blue lip.

Feeding: I fed them for the first time last night (I don't feed fish on the day they come out of the bag, too stressful for them to digest well).

I started off with a tropical fish flake mixe (I alway crunch the flakes to be smaller). Both fish did not come to the surface where the 3 resident Platies were eating away, but quite a few flakes were sucked under by the current from the HOB and they ate these. Messy eaters, I may say, I would guesstimate that over half of the food is expelled from the gills, maybe a sign that they don't really like it (yet).

Next I added some freeze dried blood worms, but they all floated. I oberseved one piece going down and that one was first eaten by the female (and expelled right after) and then by the male, also expelled. At least that one particular piece was not to their likings.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thought this link might interest you http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/apistogramma_cacatuoides.php.

Maybe this one too http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1437

But I bet you'll tell me you read these already, right?

Cheers
TW

You know Robyn,

I haven't seen either or link before, thank you very much. Sometime today, if I have an hour or two to spare, I will peruse these links and many others to identify more closely what I exactly have there.

BTW, did you see Theresa's pictures of her Cacs in the photo booth? I find the female to look completely different than mine.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

so have you gotten them to breed at all... im waiting for mine to in my pool filter sand tank

Hi bratyboy2,

Well - if you read my entries then you must have seen that I only got them two days ago, so take it easy

Give them some time to settle, I am not in a rush. If they want to breed, then I will let them. If not, fine as well.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Weekly Tank Update - Week 7

A few things have happened during this week, none of which are very dramatic, but worthwhile mentioning anyway. I will get to these points at the appropriate detail shot, so bare with me.

To start, here is a shot from last weekend, for comparison purposes:

Attached Image:

Last Week

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And here is the tank from last night, after maintenance and water change.

The first thing you may notice is a different look of the Barteri, and with it more light to the front left section. The second, and last, thing you may see is a change of parts of the wood positioning of the left group:

Attached Image:

Latest Full Tank Shot

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Before the water change, I notice a small section in the tank, confined to two to three leaves of the micros sword, on which thread algae (the longer kind, maybe staghorn) started to grow.

This area is right next to the spot (the rock to the right in the main shot) where I feed the Otos some cucumbers. I believe this is related. The one slice I added this week was completely eaten within 2 days.

Attached Image:

Some Threads

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I am rather certain that my water quality is currently a little worse than it used to be. The reason for this is that quite a few parts of the micro swords are deteriorating, most likely an unavoidable side effect of forming small plugs of them when planting as some sections of these plugs may get damaged or not planted properly.

Here you may be able to see some brown parts on the lower area of the swords:

Attached Image:

Swords Issue

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The next, and by far biggest issue of this week, was the discovery that the Barteri is disintegrating in two spots where it had sections that broke off during transport to my house.

The first sign was a dying leaf about a week ago, and this week another one followed and required me to take a closer look.

Attached Image:

Dying Barteri Section

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When I touched the area of the rhizome in which the leaf was dying I could feel that it was all mushy. I took the scissors and attempted to cut the rhizome back, under water. Now that was fatal. First of all, the scissors were not sharp enough to get a clean cut. Secondly, the whole Barteri came lose. Third, the wood of that group started to shift in the process

This is, in general, the one thing I don't like about lots of small braches that form a group, they shift all the time. Last week it was the right group, this week the left.

Back to the Barteri, I had to take it out of the tank, trim 2 sections way back, tie it to a rock, and place that one onto the left hill. This concluded in the new look of that area.

I don't know if that was enough to stop the disintegration of the plant, we will see. Here is a close-up of the group:

Attached Image:

Left Group

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And for completion purposes, here is a shot of the right group.

Oh, almost as important, but not captured in a picture, I discovered a life form on the tank glass, approximately 1 to 2 mm long, skinny, white, and moving quite fast. Copepods of some sort? Dangerous? How come?


Attached Image:

Right Group

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I think these animals have come in with the last plant order, I have to say that the micro sword was not the cleanest plant I ever received. Do you remember that I mentioned the mini rain worms that I discovered in the bucket after cleaning the plants (like tubifex worms)? Another passenger group that came in were snails, most likely common pond snails. For now they are not too bad yet, and in a few weeks I will have fish in the tank that will appreciate them as live food.

Attached Image:

Snail

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The last 2 shots are commited to the future residents of this tank, my new Apistos that I purchased as part of a trade in of 30 Espei from the 125G. These Apistos are currently in the 20G QT, but they are displayed here as this is their tank in the long run.

Here is the female:

Attached Image:

Female

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EDIT: Make sure to read the Weekly Update on the previous page, I have a few questions

And here is the male. So far, they stay mostly out of each others way in the QT. Once in a while the male slowly comes closer to the female until he is at her side, then he gives her a nudge and she swims away, not in a rush though. This, I believe, has nothing to do with mating, I believe he would like to occupy the hiding spot that she has at that moment as this never happens in the open water.

Attached Image:

Male

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Algae: Give it a big shot of Excel. Should turn red and go away.

White things: I think there was a thread about this not too long ago.

Female Apisto: Is that a snail on the righthand side eatting the wisteria?



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

did you see Theresa's pictures of her Cacs in the photo booth? I find the female to look completely different than mine.

Yes I did & I don't recognise my female amongst her photos either.

I tried hard to get a good shot of my girl to show you, but all turned out poor. Rather than clutter up your log, they are in my log http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/28921.2.htm?38# if you want to look. There are 3 of them, individually not very good, but maybe after you've viewed all 3, you may get an idea of how my girl looks.

Wish I could help on your other queries, but I know the more knowledge plant nerds will be able to help.

Re: breeding behaviour. I've noticed with both my apistos, that when the female is in the mood she tilts her body sideways at the male, flashing her belly at him. First noticed it with my bita girl, as she quite a passionate girl (either hates her mate or loves him) then watched for the same in the cacs. My female cac is doing it tonight, but the male is not taking the hint at the moment.

I wonder if you will see this tilting to the side movement of the female. Does your other apisto girl do it at all?

Cheers
TW

Wish I could help on your other queries, but I know the more knowledge plant nerds will be able to help

Hey, I'm no nerd. I play softball, coach soccer and bowl on a mens bowling team

Any who. This all started after you removed all those "weed" from the tank. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Sloooow moves. I don't believe in big changes to a tank at once. Tut, tut, none of your feable excuses about floating plants, yada, yada, yada.

Mimic nature, everything happens slowly. Tanks have to adjust to differences in plant mass and fish load. There is wiggle room off center, but there has to be balance.

I doubt if the cucumber feeding caused the algae. I know you and Robyn like to feed the little guys, but I don't think they need anything extra. I noticed alot of droppings in the tank. I do drop algae wafers in my tank from time to time because I'm in short supply of the stuff.



My Scapes

Hey,

I am not complaining about the algae (yet, ), I was simply stating that it was there. And it was in only one spot, too much of a coincidence to be not related to the cucumber (and maybe the bunch of poop that was nearby as all Otos must have eaten at least their own body weight in 2 days).

Wings, the snail is not eating the leaf per say, the leaf just happens to be in bad shape from the replant (didn't get good light before replant, was mixed in with Moss) and a snail just happened to eat on it.

Robyn, yes, my other girl does that as well, at least once in a while. I am not sure if this is a mating thing though. I would assume that the belly area of a fish is one of its most vulnerable areas. I assume that offering this area to another fish is a form of submission in general, showing that the other fish is accepted as the boss. Other animals do the same thing by offering their throat.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well, that is a true bummer, I am so mad

The male Apisto is dead, I just found him in his cave. I assume his "hiding" was not a sign of mating or what not, he must have been sick. I will call the LFS tomorrow to see what they would have to say as even Tom, the main fish guy, found it a little odd that he was hiding in that tank (but he assumed it was because of mating stuff).

This is the worst nightmare, now I only have a female left, grrrrr

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sorry to hear about your loss. I lost a fish yesterday that has not been recorded in my log yet so I know it sucks. Look at it this way. Maybe the LFS will hook you up with a new male and throw in a female for super cheap? One can only hope though. Best wishes!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I'm so upset for you Ingo. I hope they will offer you another male - you had him for such a short time. Either that, or they refund you & take back the female. My fingers are crossed for another male though.

I felt close to these fish of yours. My heart dropped when I read your post. That really sucks.

Cheers
TW

Sorry to hear about the fish. I'm sure the store will do right by you. I never thought the fish looked great in the pictures, but I couldn't put my finger on it.



My Scapes

Ingo, don't be upset when I say this, but looking closely at pics of the male, I can maybe see what Tetratech is saying. I may be imagining it, but does the male look like his body is too curvy? If you can see what I think I can see (too curvy body) maybe you can take the pics to LFS as justification for a replacement pair.

When I bought mine, each mated pair was in a sep. tank. Was that the same where you bought them? If so, maybe you could argue that they take your female back & replace with a complete new mated pair. If they weren't paired up in this way, put your case forward for a replacment male. If you are a regular cusotmer, hopefully they will value your custom enough to oblige. Those few days you had him - it's just not fair to be now stuck with a lone female.

Cheers
TW

The algae looks like what some folks call carpet plant algae. I think it's a form of Utriculria.

It just seems to get into thick carpets of plants. I always had a problem with it with hairgrass. Never found a way to get rid of it except plucking it out. It never spreads beyond the base of carpet plants.

Sorry but the only cure I found was removing or seriously thinning the hairgrass.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf - thanks for the info on the carpet algae, I will keep that in mind when it starts to spread. The particular section displayed in the photo was the only one in the tank that has been infected so far, and that part was easily pulled out, so right now I am clean again.

All others - thanks for the support on the dead Apisto, it still upsets me. The outlook lof a replacement is rather dim and most likely costly as well, here are some points:

- The LFS has a big sign that says "No guarantee for fish"
- The LFS has at most (if at all) one pair of each species of Apistos (with the occasional exception), and I bought the one Caca pair
- The LFS fought me when I claimed that I got a sick Pearl Gourami a while back, I had to argue like mad over a $5 fish to get it refunded
- Online offers of fish are also for pairs only, I don't know if I am into the idea of using both "hills" in the tank as shelter for 2 females
- Online offers are usually young adults and I have a fully grown female at home

Nevertheless, I will give the LFS a call today and tell them what happens, then I usually get the spiel "bring in the fish and a water sample", and of course I threw out the fish (no freezer entry allowed - wife).

Thanks again,

Ingo

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LF,
Your not exactly a typical customer that loses a fish due to poor water quality and besides your Published
If all this fails tell them one day their gonna get a visit by a mysterious man in a trench coat who goes by the name of NOWHER

Switching to your plants. I had microsword along time ago back when I was probably a "BigFish" or something. You can't trim the tops is the correct. It's like any other sword plant.

My Scapes

Yes tetratech, you are right, I am not a typical customer. Let's see how far this will get me, I will keep you guys posted on the outcome of the phone call.

You know, I was looking at the micro swords yesterday and wondered about the same thing myself: "what would happen if I trimmed off the tops?" I am sure it would look nice, a neatly trimmed lawn in the tank. But seriously, what would be the consequences? Would the whole leaf die?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Funny thing about water testing. O.K. so you bring your sample in like some poor little kid who lost his goldfish and the LFS employee who probably isn't old enough to baby sit your kids let alone your fish, tells you it's high on nitrAtes that's why your fish died. Then you start explaining the who hi-tech, hi-fert, co2 planted tank thing and

My Scapes

The one time when I brought a water sample to the LFS, a long time ago, I measured all values before bringing it in, this was a low tech tank (29G) and all values were 0. I was told that I have a tiny amount of Ammonia (or Nitrite, don't remember) and that was why my Neons died

Tiny, as in not detectable, and they use the same kit (or worse) than I do.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey*shakes fish at LF and Tetratech*!

I'll stand up for the LFS employee, being one myself, and plenty old to babysit a couple of snot nosed kids. First we don't check for nitrAtes, as that is very rarely a cause of death from costomers, seriously. If it is you can tell from the pH which is at like 2. Ammonia, nitrIte, and pH is what we test. We ALWAYS either give cash back to the costomer for their purchase, if the water looks like crap, or get them a new fish. Our guarantee states that you have a week if you bring the receipt, the fish, and a seperate water sample. The water sample shouldn't be used to blame the costomer, but to determine if another fish goes home, that's acceptable. But lets be honest here, try going into wal-mart or something and ask for a refund without the product. That's a nobrainer. They won't give you anything but a laugh. Fish stores however are expected to still give money back. This is silliness, and something I have a beef with our store, because we will give money back without proof that they bought the fish at our store or that the fish even died. Sometimes you get an honest guy like LF that really lost his fish and tossed it, but most of the time I KNOW we are getting screwed.

Sorry this all comes from a year+ of getting harassed by costomers. Once I was even told that I shouldn't work there because I didn't know anything about one of the rarer fish we had in the store(the costomer obviously didn't know either, why ask right?). Like I should know everything about all the fish in all 320 tanks we have.

[/rant]

but still see what you can get them to do, we'd give you money back, or a new fish without even blinking an eye. AND we never sell our apistos as pairs.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

I would love to shop at your store, and to be helped by you would be my pleasure. As to my LFS:

- we'd give you money back, or a new fish without even blinking an eye. No No

- AND we never sell our apistos as pairs. No No

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well first off, my trenchcoat days are over, sorry i can't help you there LF.



But keep in mind Apisto Cac. is a harem breeder. Adding another M/F should work, unless you just don't want the dynamic. The females may fight a bit at first but you have plenty of room in that tank, I don't see it being a problem. The choice is yours, obviously, but a new male would gladly take to the old female for breeding purposes, it's just in their nature.

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Back in the saddle!

I'll stand up for the LFS employee, being one myself, and plenty old to babysit a couple of snot nosed kids. First we don't check for nitrAtes, as that is very rarely a cause of death from costomers, seriously. If it is you can tell from the pH which is at like 2.

Matty, I know you work in a LFS and this was not meant as a blanket statement for all stores so please don't take it personally, but it does happen, because it happened to me. The store was trying anything to not give me credit. And there are at times very young employees working there, but there are also older gentlemen as well. Even very seasoned LFS stores that specialize in saltwater fish, when I tell them I'm adding no3 to my planted tank they look my like I have 3 heads.

I put this in the "With Planted Aquaria throw alot of pricipals out the window (cycling, anerobic bacteria impact, nitrates, etc.)"

My Scapes

The idea of simply getting a second pair, and as such ending up with 1m / 2f, has crossed my mind. In detail, the considerations are:

- both females will set up breeding quarters, I would assume logically that they would be under or around the individual wood groups. As such both breeding spots in the tank are taken and don't leave space for another kind of "herder", like Rams.

- I am not sure about aggression between females when competing for one male. Assuming that a new pair would ultimately conclude in one female being younger than the other, this could become a problem.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK,

I have news:

I just hung up the phone from a talk to the LFS, with their senior fish guy. He remembered that the male was a little strange and had no issues giving me store credit for it. He even gave me options:

- return the female and get $50 credit
- get another pair (when available) and pay only for the female
- get another male only (when available)

Now, that was a nice and almost unexpected move on their end and puts my ranting to shame

So, what to do? I like the female, she has a very nice coloration and markings (except a yellow body though yet), but what if she would be sick too (behaves normal and feeds nicely)?

Thanks for informative input,

Ingo

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The pair cost $50. Were they established breeders? If so that's still a bit pricey. If that's a price for a mated pair(established as breeders) then I'd take the female back and get a new mated pair. If it's just a m/f pair then I'd keep the female if she seems healthy. That would be a ton of hassle to get her out of there.

And no offense taken, I just gotta back up the LFS once in a while. They always get bashed, so I gotta go and bash the costomer back....not that it was directed at you guys either. I'm sure you guys would be the 1 in 20(kind of a stretch, maybe 1 in 30-40) costomer that you are actually happy when they walk in the door.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ingo, that is good news. That's a hard one, now that you have CHOICES. I've heard that 2 females can, or can't work - it depends on the females personality & how tolerant she is of another female. As you will have lots of wood & plants to create visual barriers, you have a very good chance of it working & your tank is fairly big too.

Why don't you hold onto to the female until a pair arrives & then decide which female you like best, or if you want to keep both? Or is it likely to be too long a time till he gets more in? Or is it because you are worried the female will succumb to sickness too? If you are even a little worred about that last scenario, I would take her back now while you can, & start again with a new pair.

Anyway, that is great news.

Matty, the LFS you work at sounds like a great place to shop. Pity you're so far across the ocean from me. I hope you don't get too many customers taking advantage of your great policy.

I've had some really great LFS, who have bent over backwards & gone above & beyond, but my 1st LFS . Unusally, this LFS records all customer purchasers against your customer no on their computer - so they know what you've bought. I have bought 3 tanks from them & another one for my stepdaughter, with the associated gravel & what not. In February I bought 8 harlequin rasboras from them. In less than a week, all of them had died. They knew the purchase was from them. They tested my water & tried to find every way they could to say it was my fault, although he reluctantly said my water was fine (Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 & pH was 7.2). He said maybe it was the pH that killed them at 7.2 & very reluctantly, he credited my store account. I bought products with the credit, but never a fish from him again. Not because I thought his fish would all die, as I'm sure it was just one bad batch of fish. He made me feel I was a liar & maybe that I intentionally killed my fish. I wouldn't even mention to a LFS if a few died (unless they are costly apistos) - but all of them?????

Since then, I've found other LFS who I think give great service & look after me well. The moral of the story is that there are 2 sides in most situations & not all LFS are the same. Some are great, some not so great. Yours sounds great.

That's so good that you sell apisto as singles. Here you can buy rams, bolivians or african cichlids as singles, but apistos are very hard to find in Aus & are ONLY sold as pairs - that's if you can even find apistos at all.

Keep us posted on yours, Ingo.

Cheers
TW

OK gang,

Here is the update, but don't kill me for it.

So I call the LFS at night to see what they got, and although they ordered a pair of Triple-Red they did not get it in as the wholesaler told them it was in bad shape and didn't look good. Instead, they got a beautiful pair of what they call Double-Orange.

I was offered to wait, return the female, get a new pair, and what not, and decided on getting the double orange and bringing the female triple red back to the LFS. So, equipped with a fish bag, I marched downstairs to fish her out, but looking at this beautiful fish I could not do it. So I decided to keep her, for better or worse.

Well, I went to the LFS and the orange one looks very nice as well...

Anyway, here is the male (what can I say, I am a sucker)

Attached Image:

Male Double-Orange

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And just to tell you, they are so closely related that the fry of the orange has some triple red in it. Read THIS LINK for details on them, although they call them Orange Flash.

And here is the female:

Attached Image:

Female Double-Orange

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The male is still pretty young, but at least as big as the female (bigger, I think). Here is his first encounter with the resident female.

Oh oh

Attached Image:

First Encounter

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And here is his second encounter, this time he is showing off his nice orange finnage.

I hope he impresses her enough to be a possible mate.

Attached Image:

Second Encounter

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Not only he was visited by the resident female, the new female got to meet her as well. Scary, but nothing else than raised fins happened so far.


Attached Image:

Female Check-Out

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

As you know, my 20G QT is not that densly planted right now. So I stole a small flower pot from the wife, banged open the small hole a little, and placed it in the tank as an additional hiding spot.

Please let me know what you think, I have about 1h left before they come out of the bag, tell me if I should change something. And - what do you think about the 3 fishies now?

Here is a full shot:

Attached Image:

Tank with Fish in Bags

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF, how did I know this would happen...

I like them, they look good. And good idea leaving extra hiding spots. If anything maybe move the pot to one side or the other, and add another pot or two on the other side. Having it right in the middle may effectively establish someones territory in the middle of the tank, leaving the other with veyr little room on the side.

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

What can I say, the female Triple-Red looked at me and I could not let her go (sucker).

I would have to destroy the scape and in the process maybe mess up the water column (floating stuff currently in the Eco) to add pots to the sides. There is a good hiding spot below the heater in the right back, and another ok one on the left side of the tank by the wisteria and the rock.

Do you think this would do for one day? The store just got them in today and I don't want to reduce the water quality with floating crap (maybe even literally).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I would have to destroy the scape and in the process maybe mess up the water column (floating stuff currently in the Eco) to add pots to the sides

Um, very nice fish, but the scape is history, because
THERE'S A RED FLOWER POT IN IT.

I respectly request that this thread be moved to Cichlid Central

My Scapes

Well,

The tank that you see is not this tank - it is the QT. As such, if at all, that thread should be moved there

BTW, Tom from the LFS mentioned to me today that he thought the male didn't look all that good either, but he was hoping I could beef him up a little. We all know how that ended. On the other hand, he says this male is in good (excellent) shape.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK,

Last entry for today:

The fish have been introduced about 10 min ago. The room in which the tank is has had all lights off except for the 125G lighting, so it was pretty dark, but enough for me to peek on the events in the tank.

First the male was hiding, but then started to swim around. He encountered the triple red female first and displayed, but she didn't seem too impressed. At least she didn't attack him.

Next he found his double orange mate, there the display was way more intense, with swimming head to caudal fin (toe) next to each other, fins wide spread, and a nudge to make her move away (on purpose, or part of ritual, I don't know). No doubt he is working on the Boss role, we will see what the resident female thinks about that.

The two females have seen each other from the distance, but not up close yet. This actually for me is more scary than the male/female encounter, I am a little worried that the stronger one will seriously hurt or even kill the weaker one.

Then the 125G went dark too and I couldn't see anything any longer.

Good night,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Those Orange flashes are just gorgeous Ingo. He's so much nicer looking than you're other male - brilliant colour. Orange Flash is the name I know these by too.

You can get much smaller flower pots, the smallest I have are only 1.5inches deep & 1.75inches in diameter. You can get them in varying increasing sizes. These smaller ones can be much better hidden. If rocks can unintentially be hidden from view, then surely these small pots can too. They are hidden in my 23.5 & can't be seen. I expect yells of protest for this - but it will depend on if you need them for fishy safety really - that was what forced me to add them.

I still like the idea that someone (was it Rick?) gave you earlier in your 125G about using plastic black film cannisters with a hole drilled in the end. I started collecting these & was going to use them (you wouldn't even see these - they'd blend with the black eco & put plants around them). Not sure if LFS was right, but he told me to be careful just in case the plastic leached toxins. I don't see how it could, as I thought the plastic would be inert, but still, it has scared me from using them. What do you think - do you think it sounds like fact or nonsense.

Anyway Ingo, back to your fish. They are simply gorgeous. Glad they came in so quickly. The link/s I gave you also mentions them (as Orange Flash) and tells how the orange flash can have fry of all the red varieties too. BTW, that site you linked to is where I got all my advice for dealing with aggression in my apistos. Very helpful bunch, if you need specialised advice.

Look forward to hearing future breeding news

Have fun. Glad your day has ended in such a happy note.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Robyn for the comments on the new fishies. As it is still dark right now, I don't even know if they are still alive, but we will see (actually, I will find out no earlier today, except if I call the wife from work later on to go downstairs and check on them).

The pot - well, that is only a temporary solution. I compromised the "desgin" of this tank as it is primariy a QT and has to fulfill that purpose. Once (and if) all 3 survive for long enought (4-5 weeks) I will add them to the 40G and in there are certainly 2 good spots, one for each female, that will not require the addition of artificial hiding spaces.

When I added the pot I was scambling to find anything that I can use, and this was the smallest my wife had. I also looked into the toy collection from my children (evil me) to see if there is a smaller similar shaped container, but while doing so I thought about toxins leaching from plastic and decided against it. True or not, I don't know, but better safe than sorry. Film roll containers feel different when touched than children toys, but I could imagine that they are treated in some form, for example to reduce the built-up of moisture. But I am just guessing.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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OK, seems the toxins from plastic theory may have merit, as you also preferred to be safe, rather than sorry. I'll take that route also & remain safe. Thanks for the comments on that.

Cheers
TW

No problem Robyn, I am always glad to be able to state my opinion, even if it does not hold any merit

Let us keep our fingers crossed that this trio will live happily ever after, maybe tonight I can post a few shots of the guys in the tank.

Ingo

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Nice fish! I like the orange better than the reds... that is just me though...

Ahh off to hike to class in the heat!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
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Ingo, you constantly tease me with your pics. If it wasn't for an empty wallet, I would have setup a 40g planted tank of my own so sit beside my 120g monster tank. Pics look amazing. Are those guys from AF?

Yup Mike,

They are from AF, Tom was very helpful as the original pair of Triple-Red that I aquired last Thursday saw the loss of the male on Sunday and Tom was kind enough to agree that the male didn't look all that good in the LFS tank either and as such offered me all kinds of options.

So I opted to keep the female Triple-Red and go for a pair of Double-Orange (Orange Flash, if I am not mistaken) on top of it.

And - Midnight Madness is coming up soon, so maybe your wallet is full enough for this

Wings - have fun in the heat (and thanks for the comment on the latest addition)

Ingo

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Ok,

So here is an update from what I have seen going on in the QT within the last 20 min.

First off, a list of all payers involved.

Let us start with the resident female, the Triple-Red, who is for sure the oldest of the gang:

Attached Image:

Triple Red Female

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Moving on to the new female, the Double-Orange, or should I call them Orange Flash? She is the smallest of all 3, but not all that much smaller than the male.

She stays mostly close to the bottom, but unlike the sick triple red she is out and about, on the right side of the tank:

Attached Image:

Double Orange Female

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And on to the boss man, the male Double-Orange. He is all over the tank as well, sometimes nicely colored while othertimes in his "I am scared" dark gray outfit.

His fins are still a little ragged, but if this is the only problem I will encounter then I am happy.

Attached Image:

Double Orange Male

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Unfortunatley, this picture shows what I observed in the tank, in particular during feeding when she ventured into other areas of the tank to grab a bite. He is threatening and attacking her, and she runs off, darn. Not always though, sometimes he is showing her his side first.

As a result, she didn't seem to have gotten a lot of food, but she got some at least.

Attached Image:

Double Orange Couple? Doesn't Look Like It

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On the other hand, his behavior towards the Triple Red female is much different. Although he occasionally gives her a nudge on the side, it mostly looks like this:

Attached Image:

Orange Red Mix

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As you can see, she is still at least his size, if not bigger. But, I assume he has made his choice (for now) and she doesn't seem to mind his flattering behavior too much, as can be seen in the next picture.

There was one occasion when it looked like he wanted to herd her into the pot, but I couldn't get a shot of it.

Attached Image:

Orange Red Mix II

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Check out pictures at bottom of last page

And, just because I find it a nice picture, here is the male chasing flake food into the flower pot.

Have fun,

That's it for now (dinner time),

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male in Pot

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He is threatening and attacking her, and she runs off, darn

Remember my "sworn emenies". You never know how these things will work out - you know they are now parents.

Anyway, the colours are lovely. Makes me want to run out & buy the orange ones too.

Cheers
TW

Yeah, I remember Robyn, and that turned out well - so far

Actually, that behavior was the worst just after feeding, when fish in general claim their stake as they wish not to share any remaining food.

I actually fed some more, and this time I use SF Brime Shrimp and even my other female got her share for sure. And she was at mid-level, and the male did not make too much of a fuss.

Thanks,

Ingo

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I actually fed some more

I'm listening





My Scapes

LF, quick, do a massive WC before he really gets mad!

Sounds like nice apisto behavior. Get one more female and you'll have yourself a nice colony!

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Back in the saddle!

Hey there

Chill tetratech, it is a low tech, medium light QT, no need to worry. Nevertheless, it gets weekly 50% water changes while new fish are in there.

It will be all right, no algae will appear, I promise

Ok, so, maybe a little

Ingo

EDIT: NowherMan6 -

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Chill tetratech, it is a low tech, medium light QT, no need to worry

O.K. carry on...splash....splash....ahhhhhh

My Scapes

hello ingo and gang,

it was me who posted a while ago about the film canisters for breeding apistos - and i can assure you they are inert. i am curently looking at my smallest tank, only thirty litres, with one pair of triple-red cacs and their 20 or so 5-day-old spawn...laid, fertilised, and hatched in a film canister.

in such a small aquarium i would know of any poisoning pretty quickly - but i've used the cannisters in a variety of contexts for over five years and never had toxin issues.

they are just so easy to position and hide, and are smooth, which the female seems to appreciate, and easy to clean in between spawnings. as i said previously, they are also small enough for the female to defend easily - a must if there are any potential egg-eaters in the tank.

anyhow, if you don't want to risk it, don't do it - but think of all the ornaments, plants, tubes and pieces of equipment in people's tanks already which are the same moulded plastic...

peace

justin

Justin,

Thanks for the input. I believe that your observation of film canisters is assuring that they are proper for tank use.

Conceptually speaking though, just because plastic on aquarium equipment is not toxic doesn't mean that other forms of plastic would be the same. Plastic comes in many chemical combinations, and on top of it some plastic products are treated afterwards with chemicals, for example to avoid fungus growth and what not. I could imagine that it makes sense to treat film cannisters so that they produce less condensation (although I have no idea how this would be done).

Plus, given that you are sooooo far away from where I am, who knows if the plastic components and treatments of film canisters during production is the same in, I would assume, very different production plants.

As a smoker that I am , just take cigarettes from the same brand produced in different countries and continents. They are sooo different in taste and intensity (although they all kill).

Justin, no matter what, your input is always appreciated, so keep it coming

Ingo

EDIT: and oh, Justin - how do you like the Double-Oranges?

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Hey Justin

You are not so far away from me - are you in Sydney? So I'm more likely to have the same type of film cannisters as you. Mine come from Kodak film - would that be the same as you use? How do you make them sink. I find that they float. I have thought about using aquarium safe silicone & attaching a lead fishing weight to the underneath to keep them down. How do you manage it?

Sorry to hijack your log with this question Ingo, but I haven't seen Justin in my log, so don't know how else to ask you Justin. Pls forgive.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Not only are you forgiven, I find the question very relevant for my log as well. If I ever should decide on using film canisters, it cannot harm to know how to handle them.

My guess would be to partially bury them.

Ingo

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Update on the Apistos:

Boy oh boy, he sure is a dominator. He basically takes position in the middle of the tank and confines the females one on each side. If they try to venture out then he is attacking them head first. He is in particular harsh on the younger female, the other one doesn't seem all that impressed by his attack but will eventually retreat to her tank side anyway. The Orange female, on the other hand, takes flight as soon as he comes close, and if she doesn't see him right away then an attack is unavoidable.

I also had to overfeed again, she was not able to get any food the first time around.

Should I be concerned?

Ingo

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Well I work in the plastics industry. Never thought I'd need it in a planted tank forum

Plastic won't leach anything into the water. Most plastic molded products use pretty much the same small group of plastic materials, there are just slight variations for color, pliability etc but it's basically the same small group of resins. Everywhere.

Plastic is not usually treated for anything. For the example of the film canister possibly being treated for condensation - well what do you think the foil wrapper the film comes in is for ?

Co2 will corrode some plastic,mainly the very soft ones used for airline tubing and sucker pads, over time. Co2 is relatively acidic (hence the pH drop). But even this won't release anything harmful to fish, normal waterchanges more then take care of it.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Plastic is not usually treated for anything. For the example of the film canister possibly being treated for condensation - well what do you think the foil wrapper the film comes in is for ?

Well, I expanded the options of possibilities from the material to the treatment based on a recent reading in one of the fish magazines. There, a question on why someone's pond fish died was concluded with the fact that he used a pool cover as the pond base rather than a pond liner. And pool covers (made out of plastic) are treated to minimize the settlement of algae. So here is a case of treatment for plastic.

But in any way, Bensaf, your insight into the plastic industry is for sure helpful and another reason to finally drop the concern over film canisters

Ingo

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greetings,

re: floating canisters: i make rock formations around them, jam them under driftwood, whatever it takes and whatever you like the look of. i did have a couple which were each glued to a small rock, which kept it sunk, then just built and planted round them. i'll try and take a photo some time of my current set-up, and post a link.

tankwatcher, i'll jump over and have a look at your log now and have a chat with you there rather than hijack ingo's thread.

justin

Chances are with the pool cover that it was used on a pool at one point and still had chemicals on it.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
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Should I be concerned?

I don't know, but I think you are a worrier, like me , so you probably will be concerned anyway. I can only offer the advice I was given. If things seem bad, remove the agressor temporarily (for a week or 2) & rearrange the hiding spots during the absence. Have dither fish in there, but I think you do anyway. They're in your QT with platys, right? Make sure you have lots of visual barriers in there. In my "problem" tank, fish can swim around the back section of the tank, without being seen by fish in the front section. The back section also contains at least 3 hiding places, as well as driftwood barriers & dense planting. The front section also has at least 3 hiding places. You need to have multiple hiding places spread out throughout the tank (Justin's film cannisters?) so a hassled fish can make an emergency gettaway, without having to go all the way back to their own alloted hiding space in their own alloted territory.

Hoped you wouldn't have this problem, as my cacs are very peaceful.

Anyway, hope this helps. Also, they may just sort this out themselves, once they have the status quo sorted out amongst them.

Cheers
TW

hi ingo,

i forgot to mention, your new cacs are GORGEOUS. mine bring me so much pleasure, and the first time you see yours with a little brood of bubs you'll be hooked on them. they are aggressive, but highly individual, and in my experience the females are usually the ones in control - but if need be, put the boy in a breeder trap (but keep him in the same tank so they can see him) for a few days so the females get a chance to eat freely and really explore territory. once they seem really comfy, reintroduce him. once she wants to breed he'll be the one running for cover! i love that a tiny yellow girl can have such power over a male three times her size - just goes to show the power of sex.

regards, justin

Thanks Gang for the info (and compliment) on the Apistos

For right now, I will let them sort it out. As long as all 3 seem to get food I am not too worried.

Last night I came home really late and didn't even have a chance to check on the fish, when I left this morning it was still dark, work is going strong this week (yet again). This means that I neither know how they do nor did I feed them. But two prior days of overfeeding make me very comfortable that all should be good.

Ingo

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Update on the Apistos:

When I came home today I was seeing the QT for the first time in 2 days as I was at work so late and had to leave for work so early again that it was complete darness down in the basement while I was home.

When I approached the tank today, I only saw the male, strotting around the tank. None of the females were anywhere. I started looking around in the tank when after maybe 5 min the Triple-Red came out from underneath one of the pieces of driftwood where there is a small gap between wood and substrate. She was instantly attacked by the male, but not too bad overall as long as she stayed all the way at the left side of the tank.

I could not find the Orange female and took the glass top off to search, even with the help of a flashight. Nothing! I started to use my fingers to search through the plants, after all had been searched still nothing, not even a body. I knew that my next option would be to remove all hardware as she may be somewhere under some wood or something.

But before I went on to do that I decided to feed the tank, maybe she would come out if she "smells" the food. And sure enough, after about 3 minutes of feeding I saw her race through the tank, being chased by the male. He seems to really be mad at her all the time, he tolerates the other female to some degee but as soon as he even sees the orange one it is an all out chase until he loses sight.

What to do?

Ingo

EDIT: Now, maybe 15 min after feeding, both females have dissapeared again

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Sounds like it's time to get a breeder trap or something and put the male in time out.

Give the females a chance to strengthen up and stake some territory maybe?

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Ingo, you sound like you're going through what I did with the apisto Bita's. I sometimes would not see the male for days at a time, as he was hiding out from the female. He didn't even come out for food, as he didn't like what was being offered. Net breeders were my form of time out for my aggressive female & I was lucky enough for the time out to work. I think my male bita will always have a skittish personality, but he no longer has to hide out & can openly swim the tank.

The hard part for a scaper is that the advice is to rearrange the tank during the time out. I fully sympathise with you on this - I know what you're going through. I totally thought I would be left with a fish death (aggression coupled with rejecting food). It took nearly a month, but it has worked out. I can only say to try temporary separation & during that time re-arrange & add heaps of hiding spaces (small pieces of driftwood, rocks, film cannisters - things they can swim into or underneath to hide. Make sure there are visual barriers. I have a couple of thin curved pieces of driftwood that are about 4inches high. They act as sort of fences that a fish can swim along the length of without being seen on the other side by another fish. I have two of these, running the length of the tank, but slightly offset from each other. From a scaper's point of view it might make things hard, 'cause for a while at least, 1st priority has to be give all fish a good chance to live in the tank without always feeling scared of harassment. The funny thing is though, in the end, this tank I have had to compromise arrangements & planting to suit the fish, is also the tank that I'm now the happiest with how the plant display looks.

Keep us posted.

Cheers
TW

ingo, get a breeder trap or a betta trap and seperate him. he wants to breed and the girls aren't ready for him. give them a couple of days to de-stress, put in some more hidey holes for them (film canisters, perchance? hehehe) and give them some time to eat and get a sense of territory. by seeing him they will probably get in the mood to mate, and then be a bit more on an 'even' playing field with him.

regards, justin

Thanks for the advice, Rick, Robyn, and Justin

Today the tank is due for a water change anyway. If I am not mistaken then I have a breeder net available, I tend to buy things just in case and now would be one of the times when such a purchase could come in handy.

I don't have any film canisters handy, I haven't taken a conventional picture in over a year

I have one of Jeff Senske's woods still available, maybe I will add that and also rearrange the existing rock and wood formations.

I will keep you posted.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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LF,

I know we have been talking alot about the cichlids, but how are the plants doing thus far, please notably the microsword. Do you see fresh runners, etc.

My Scapes

Still life!!!!!



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
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Tetratech,

I promise that my weekly update will contain more on the tank in itself, sorry to bother you with fish stories

But quickly, the micro swords look pretty much the same than last week, I will have to take a closer look during the water change.

Wings - Boah, you are fast

On the Apisto Frontier (sorry again, tetratech), here is a look at the tank now, and Here Is A Link to the whole change process (also explains why there is not Breeder Net in the tank).

Ingo

Attached Image:

New Hiding Spot Tank

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btw, ingo, i wouldn't be surprised if your triple-red female is a male in disguise....there's a lot of colour in them there fins!!! i thought so initially but didn't want to say, but now there seems to be territiory issues etc i just thought i'd add the possibility to the mix...

justin

Boah Justin,

I know about submissive males in disguise, but that is a shocker

Please elaborate what makes you think so. I read that the est breeding stock of female Triple-Reds are the ones that have a lot of fin coloration themselves, as such I interpreted her as good stock.
Would that not mean that the Double-Orange would more likely start a fight with her/him rather than the other female? He is not leaving her/him alone, but he is not going after her/him as bad as he does towards the other.

Ingo

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hi ingo - sorry to be the bearer of bad news - i just thought it may be a posibility. the females we get here in australia are never so colourful, so maybe she is just god stock. i also note that her first two 'spines' of the dorsal fin are quite short, so in fact she may wel be female. however, pointers against her are the absence of the tear stripe, and the amount of blue on her face, both of which i would be circumspect about. certainly if i saw her as a juvenile i would have my doubts. but anyway, only time will really tell.

regards,

justin

Sorry Tetra, more cichlid talk.

I wondered about your female too, as she does not show the usual yellow body colour of a female triple red here. My female does have a small proportion of the corresponding male colours to her fins & tail, but her body is yellow, which matches in with my female bita as well. I am certainly no expert, but this is just what I have observed from mine & others I've seen for sale. I'm probably far from right and would think your LFS who sold her to you would be a far better judge & they think her a girl - she she probably is. I haven't read your "link" above yet, so I'll go do that now.

Cheers
TW

Justin and Robyn,

Let me first get to the usual task for this weekend, then I will show more pictures and share some thoughts about the cross-dressing fishies.

So, Weekly Tank Update - Week 8

Not too much has happened to the tank during this week, the focus was more on fish that are not even in the tank yet.

During the water change this weekend, I came to the recognition that this tank in its current design is not working to well.

The keyword is instability. The easiest to fix is the CO2 tubing, which came off twice this week alone, not too good for constant water conditions. Harder to fix will be the driftwood. All these individual branches are very lose and this makes it hard to vacuum around them. I wonder if I should tie them all together or how else I would be able to keep them more solid.

On top of it, I begin to see your point with the micro swords not being effective and the hills being not even identifyable as such

Anyway, here is the tank from this weekend, after the water change:

Attached Image:

Full Tank

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Other things of concern is that I have now identified two Anubias Nana that have melting rhizomes. Slowly but steadily the entire plants melt away, losing about 1 leaf per week.

The Barteri doesn't look all that healthy either, certain areas of the various rhizomes show brown spots, usually the first sign of melting.

As you can see, overall I am not too happy. Here is a shot form a short side, looking at the Nana group.

Attached Image:

Nana Nana

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The last directly tank related picture is a top down shot to show the micro swords from that angle (someone requested that shot a while back).

The out-of focus spots on the picture are duckweed, the dark area is a driftwood flat on the surface. This shot was taken from the backside of the tank.

Attached Image:

Micro Swords

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Back to Apisto talk:

For the time being, I will still consider her female, too lazy to constantly type he/she and such.

Here is another shot of her, showing the tear stripe (thanks justing, I didn't know this marking has a specific name, makes lots of sense though), but also the blue facial markings. My female viejita (and she is a female for sure) has these markings as well, although much less):

Attached Image:

Female ?

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Here is a shot of the two females, as you may even be able to detect from the shot the triple red is the more aggressive one. Rarely does it come to a direct confrontation, but if it does then it is usually solved by flashing and the orange one swims away. Once or twice I witnessed a picking though.

Attached Image:

Females ?

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Maybe even the orange female is a male in hiding, I am not even sure about that anymore. She also does not display a yellow body and no tear stripe at all.

Here is another look at the triple red. The one thing I notice is that her pelvic fins are quite a bit shorter than the male's (the dead one).

Overall, her entire body shape is rather different from the one the oranges have, she is more stocky.

The stock, by the way, is most likely from Germany, the capital of Apisto breeding. At least that is where the LFS thinks they get them from (wholesaler would know).

Attached Image:

Female Or Male ?

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Here is the only one I can be sure about, this guy is a male. His behavior is all male, flashing and chasing and what not. His pelvic fins are also longer than the ones of the triple red.

That is it for now, let me know what you think about tank and fish,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male !

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Whatever their sex, they are gorgeous & time will tell I guess. Eggs would be a nice way to settle it once & for all I agree you should call her a "she". That's what she was sold as, so that's more than likely what she is.

It seems that at least the aggression is enough under control for them to be swimming around the tank & pose for pictures. Mine are said to be German bred fish too.

I always enjoy looking & your tank & plants. I've had an anubias start dying on me & I think it was caused by me tying the fishing too tight & strangling the poor plant. No doubt that is not your problem, as you'd be able to see that.

Cheers
TW

You will see me in rage if it should turn out that I got 1 or 2 males in disguise and paid $75 for the set.

Maybe the male Orange is so agressive towards the female Orange because he notices that she is a male as well

Anyway, thanks for the compliments Robyn,

Ingo

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Lf,
Nice shots. Looking at the female? triple-red and looking at the orange-flash male I don't see much difference in fin size between the two, but I am by far no expert.

Nice microsword shot, but you never answered my question are the plants growing? Do you see fresh runners and are they growing taller as well?

I've mentioned ths before, but I have a good idea for your hills. If you intent on using the microswords as a foreground you need to get those hills much higher. It can be done with just rock work, but to make you life easier and provide moore stability you can use women's stockings.

Cut a womens' stockings into pieces and fill each with eco, making a sort of bunker out of them. Put some rocks against, on top, below the bunker of eco-filled stockings and this will give you good height and it will look natural. It will also provide more depth for the branches to be more staple.

Then you could move the microsword around in the lower area created and you should be able to see your mounds.



My Scapes

I have lost total faith on who of them may be a female. I will call the LFS on Monday and ask if they can be sure about the sexes they receive.

Great idea tetratech, I will have to think about how to restructure the tank. The raising of the hills crates a potential issue in overall height of the hardscape though, as I have only a total of 16" to work with. Guess I should have gotten the 50G instead.

The micro sword is still shedding original leaves in some parts of the tank, mostly where the light is limited (as expected). I see a few new sprouts creeping just off the plugs, but not too many.

Thanks for the compliments on the pics,

Ingo

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Females typically have a lot of the black coloration on their ventral fins, only one of the three has any, and it's slight enough that it could still be a male. Females generally don't have a lyrate caudal fin, the only one of yours that doesn't is the male. The cac spikes at the anterior of the dorsal fin are usually a dead giveaway, but none of the pics have any of them extending their dorsal fins, so I can't tell. The posterior of the dorsal fin is always a place to look as females have a more rounded look, while males are elongated. Nobody is yellow yet either, which comes with maturity, so that's out I guess.

Tough case you got there LF. I think one might be a female(with the black on the ventral fins), the other "female" still might be given some time to mature.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ok,

I will make one more attempt here with pictures and other info, this is driving me nuts

First of all, thanks Matty for the very detailed explanation on sexing Apistos, very helpful (and I thought young Rams are hard to sex).

I found This Site and I would like to quote some of the text:

Here is a part about Apistogramma gibbiceps: Males possess lyrate caudal fins. I point this out because it speaks of males only.

Here is the part about Apistogramma cacatuoides: The cacatuoides-group species are characterized by their robust but slightly elongate bodies, enlarged lips, extended anterior dorsal fin lappets, and usually lyrate caudal fins. No mention of male or female is attached to this section.

Anyway, here are a few shots. First the dorsal fin of the Triple-Red:

Attached Image:

Dorsal Fin

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Here she is again, showing off her extended anterior dorsal fin lappets.

Matty - you said that this would be a give away, so following your statement this would be a male, right?

Attached Image:

All Fins

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Matty,

Explain this sentence of yours: "Females generally don't have a lyrate caudal fin, the only one of yours that doesn't is the male." I have no idea which one you talk are talking about.

Here is a last shot of the Triple-Red:

Attached Image:

What is it?

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Here is the proposed Double-Orange female. Even when she raises her fins she does not have extended anterior dorsal fin lappets, actually they are very short.

She is the smallest of the group.

Attached Image:

Double-Orange Female I

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Here is another shot, I am not sure if it helps with something, but I am desperate so I guess any clue helps. Even the Triple-Red is now displaying towards her when she gets too close, but, unlike with the male Double-Orange, the Triple-Red is not actively persuing her.

Attached Image:

Double-Orange Female II

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And the last one of her, I believe it shows that she does not have a lyrate caudal fin.

I don't know

Attached Image:

Double-Orange Female III

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And just for comparison, the only one I am pretty sure about, the Male Double-Orange. He also does not have a lyrate caudal fin, but he sure has the extended anterior dorsal fin lappets.

I guess I will also post the male/female question in the Cichlid Forum, giving the question a larger exposure than us plant folks (ACIDRAIN is there once in a while).

The Confused Ingo

Attached Image:

Male Double-Orange

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Matty - you said that this would be a give away, so following your statement this would be a male, right?

Yeaaaah....my somewhat educated guess for the triple red - male. It has extended anterior and posterior dorsal, along with the lyrate caudal(tail). I get the information about the lyrate caudal fin from the Mergus Cichlid Atlas V. 1. This info is cacatuoides specific:

"On reaching maturity they[males] develop a distinctly lyrate caudal fin, whereas the caudal fin is round or, at most, slightly truncate in females."

Who knows what intense breeding has done to the species though.

The "female" orange flash could be an immature male. It has one node on the caudal fin showing the start of a lyrate tail. It also has very extended posterior dorsal fin. I would say time will tell on this one.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Man,

That is all very confusing

Add to the mix that NowherMan6 had seen the "pair" of Triple-Red about a week before I bought them, and that he identified them as "playmates", at least they behaved as such.

Grrrrrr ....


Ingo

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Ingo,
Thought you might be interested in this if you haven't seen it. It's a thread on APC shows a few pics (not great)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fish-for-the-planted-aquarium/28948-my-apistogramma-cacatuoides-double-red-just.html?highlight=Apistos

My Scapes

hi ingo,

i feel a bit bad for having started this whole thing, but remember, you are a caretaker for three beautiful little fish, and you can enjoy them regardless of gender. until there are definite signs such as the females yellowing up for breeding, or the absense of breeding, or them colouring up totally into males, there is really no way of knowing. i'm sure every memeber of fishprofiles has a weird gender-based fish story to tell. no fish shop should ever claim to sell 'pairs' of a fish which is as notoriously hard to sex as cacs, especially when they are juvies. subordinate male, alpha female, less colourful alpha male, wild-caught v line bred, it's all too tricky.

you take impeccable care of your tanks and there would appear to be no other reasons for them not to breed - so i think if the females are going to yellow up and start to court, they'll do it pretty soon. give them another week or so and if still no luck, then i think you might have gender issues.

*sigh* good luck, ingo.

justin

Ingo, sorry to hear about the mess

I would ask over at cichlid-forum.com, they should be able to give you plenty of opinions.

I definetely saw them being intimate in the LFS. The male came over to the other one, the other, rolled over onto its side and he started to wrap his body around the other. This doesnt seem like aggressive behavior to me, seems more like mating, or suggestive of mating.

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks guys,

Even looking at various links, the situation is not clear. I went to the LFS last night and talked to Tom, the head FW fish expert with whom I also arrange my Espei trade-ins. I asked him about the chances that the wholesaler got it all mixed up, and he confirms that this is theoretically a possibility. We bounced some thoughts of each other, like which fish to move to the 40G in order to see the other(s) show their true colors (genders), what to consider when trying to sex them, and what not. Overall we must have talked for at least 30 minutes, but neither him nor myself came to any solid conclusion.

So, here it the plan: I wait 4 weeks to see what happens

Ingo

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Loooong time no new entries, so

Weekly Tank Update - Week 9 AND 10

Having not been too wild lately in reporting on my tanks, partially because of work load and partially because of vacation issues, the last two weeks will be handled in one sitting.

The first thing I did to my tank about a week ago was to replace the CO2 tubing with a gray one from ADA. I also moved it way down on the side, this way the glass diffuser cannot slip downwards out of the tube. And what can I say, so far it holds.

The main topic of this week is the fact that my thread disintegrated faster than the anubias could grab hold on rocks and wood, I had to retie quite a few of them this weekend and more are probably to follow.

Overall, the impression I get when I look at my tank is:

BORING

I am neither happy with the plants, nor with the structure. The anubias still show signs of melting, but the micro sword starts to spread, the only good thing.

All Otos are still alive.

Here is the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Last Week - Week 9

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