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Robyn,

Not only are you forgiven, I find the question very relevant for my log as well. If I ever should decide on using film canisters, it cannot harm to know how to handle them.

My guess would be to partially bury them.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Update on the Apistos:

Boy oh boy, he sure is a dominator. He basically takes position in the middle of the tank and confines the females one on each side. If they try to venture out then he is attacking them head first. He is in particular harsh on the younger female, the other one doesn't seem all that impressed by his attack but will eventually retreat to her tank side anyway. The Orange female, on the other hand, takes flight as soon as he comes close, and if she doesn't see him right away then an attack is unavoidable.

I also had to overfeed again, she was not able to get any food the first time around.

Should I be concerned?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I work in the plastics industry. Never thought I'd need it in a planted tank forum

Plastic won't leach anything into the water. Most plastic molded products use pretty much the same small group of plastic materials, there are just slight variations for color, pliability etc but it's basically the same small group of resins. Everywhere.

Plastic is not usually treated for anything. For the example of the film canister possibly being treated for condensation - well what do you think the foil wrapper the film comes in is for ?

Co2 will corrode some plastic,mainly the very soft ones used for airline tubing and sucker pads, over time. Co2 is relatively acidic (hence the pH drop). But even this won't release anything harmful to fish, normal waterchanges more then take care of it.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Plastic is not usually treated for anything. For the example of the film canister possibly being treated for condensation - well what do you think the foil wrapper the film comes in is for ?

Well, I expanded the options of possibilities from the material to the treatment based on a recent reading in one of the fish magazines. There, a question on why someone's pond fish died was concluded with the fact that he used a pool cover as the pond base rather than a pond liner. And pool covers (made out of plastic) are treated to minimize the settlement of algae. So here is a case of treatment for plastic.

But in any way, Bensaf, your insight into the plastic industry is for sure helpful and another reason to finally drop the concern over film canisters

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

greetings,

re: floating canisters: i make rock formations around them, jam them under driftwood, whatever it takes and whatever you like the look of. i did have a couple which were each glued to a small rock, which kept it sunk, then just built and planted round them. i'll try and take a photo some time of my current set-up, and post a link.

tankwatcher, i'll jump over and have a look at your log now and have a chat with you there rather than hijack ingo's thread.

justin

Chances are with the pool cover that it was used on a pool at one point and still had chemicals on it.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Should I be concerned?

I don't know, but I think you are a worrier, like me , so you probably will be concerned anyway. I can only offer the advice I was given. If things seem bad, remove the agressor temporarily (for a week or 2) & rearrange the hiding spots during the absence. Have dither fish in there, but I think you do anyway. They're in your QT with platys, right? Make sure you have lots of visual barriers in there. In my "problem" tank, fish can swim around the back section of the tank, without being seen by fish in the front section. The back section also contains at least 3 hiding places, as well as driftwood barriers & dense planting. The front section also has at least 3 hiding places. You need to have multiple hiding places spread out throughout the tank (Justin's film cannisters?) so a hassled fish can make an emergency gettaway, without having to go all the way back to their own alloted hiding space in their own alloted territory.

Hoped you wouldn't have this problem, as my cacs are very peaceful.

Anyway, hope this helps. Also, they may just sort this out themselves, once they have the status quo sorted out amongst them.

Cheers
TW

hi ingo,

i forgot to mention, your new cacs are GORGEOUS. mine bring me so much pleasure, and the first time you see yours with a little brood of bubs you'll be hooked on them. they are aggressive, but highly individual, and in my experience the females are usually the ones in control - but if need be, put the boy in a breeder trap (but keep him in the same tank so they can see him) for a few days so the females get a chance to eat freely and really explore territory. once they seem really comfy, reintroduce him. once she wants to breed he'll be the one running for cover! i love that a tiny yellow girl can have such power over a male three times her size - just goes to show the power of sex.

regards, justin

Thanks Gang for the info (and compliment) on the Apistos

For right now, I will let them sort it out. As long as all 3 seem to get food I am not too worried.

Last night I came home really late and didn't even have a chance to check on the fish, when I left this morning it was still dark, work is going strong this week (yet again). This means that I neither know how they do nor did I feed them. But two prior days of overfeeding make me very comfortable that all should be good.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Update on the Apistos:

When I came home today I was seeing the QT for the first time in 2 days as I was at work so late and had to leave for work so early again that it was complete darness down in the basement while I was home.

When I approached the tank today, I only saw the male, strotting around the tank. None of the females were anywhere. I started looking around in the tank when after maybe 5 min the Triple-Red came out from underneath one of the pieces of driftwood where there is a small gap between wood and substrate. She was instantly attacked by the male, but not too bad overall as long as she stayed all the way at the left side of the tank.

I could not find the Orange female and took the glass top off to search, even with the help of a flashight. Nothing! I started to use my fingers to search through the plants, after all had been searched still nothing, not even a body. I knew that my next option would be to remove all hardware as she may be somewhere under some wood or something.

But before I went on to do that I decided to feed the tank, maybe she would come out if she "smells" the food. And sure enough, after about 3 minutes of feeding I saw her race through the tank, being chased by the male. He seems to really be mad at her all the time, he tolerates the other female to some degee but as soon as he even sees the orange one it is an all out chase until he loses sight.

What to do?

Ingo

EDIT: Now, maybe 15 min after feeding, both females have dissapeared again

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sounds like it's time to get a breeder trap or something and put the male in time out.

Give the females a chance to strengthen up and stake some territory maybe?

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Ingo, you sound like you're going through what I did with the apisto Bita's. I sometimes would not see the male for days at a time, as he was hiding out from the female. He didn't even come out for food, as he didn't like what was being offered. Net breeders were my form of time out for my aggressive female & I was lucky enough for the time out to work. I think my male bita will always have a skittish personality, but he no longer has to hide out & can openly swim the tank.

The hard part for a scaper is that the advice is to rearrange the tank during the time out. I fully sympathise with you on this - I know what you're going through. I totally thought I would be left with a fish death (aggression coupled with rejecting food). It took nearly a month, but it has worked out. I can only say to try temporary separation & during that time re-arrange & add heaps of hiding spaces (small pieces of driftwood, rocks, film cannisters - things they can swim into or underneath to hide. Make sure there are visual barriers. I have a couple of thin curved pieces of driftwood that are about 4inches high. They act as sort of fences that a fish can swim along the length of without being seen on the other side by another fish. I have two of these, running the length of the tank, but slightly offset from each other. From a scaper's point of view it might make things hard, 'cause for a while at least, 1st priority has to be give all fish a good chance to live in the tank without always feeling scared of harassment. The funny thing is though, in the end, this tank I have had to compromise arrangements & planting to suit the fish, is also the tank that I'm now the happiest with how the plant display looks.

Keep us posted.

Cheers
TW

ingo, get a breeder trap or a betta trap and seperate him. he wants to breed and the girls aren't ready for him. give them a couple of days to de-stress, put in some more hidey holes for them (film canisters, perchance? hehehe) and give them some time to eat and get a sense of territory. by seeing him they will probably get in the mood to mate, and then be a bit more on an 'even' playing field with him.

regards, justin

Thanks for the advice, Rick, Robyn, and Justin

Today the tank is due for a water change anyway. If I am not mistaken then I have a breeder net available, I tend to buy things just in case and now would be one of the times when such a purchase could come in handy.

I don't have any film canisters handy, I haven't taken a conventional picture in over a year

I have one of Jeff Senske's woods still available, maybe I will add that and also rearrange the existing rock and wood formations.

I will keep you posted.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

I know we have been talking alot about the cichlids, but how are the plants doing thus far, please notably the microsword. Do you see fresh runners, etc.

My Scapes

Still life!!!!!



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Tetratech,

I promise that my weekly update will contain more on the tank in itself, sorry to bother you with fish stories

But quickly, the micro swords look pretty much the same than last week, I will have to take a closer look during the water change.

Wings - Boah, you are fast

On the Apisto Frontier (sorry again, tetratech), here is a look at the tank now, and Here Is A Link to the whole change process (also explains why there is not Breeder Net in the tank).

Ingo

Attached Image:

New Hiding Spot Tank

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

btw, ingo, i wouldn't be surprised if your triple-red female is a male in disguise....there's a lot of colour in them there fins!!! i thought so initially but didn't want to say, but now there seems to be territiory issues etc i just thought i'd add the possibility to the mix...

justin

Boah Justin,

I know about submissive males in disguise, but that is a shocker

Please elaborate what makes you think so. I read that the est breeding stock of female Triple-Reds are the ones that have a lot of fin coloration themselves, as such I interpreted her as good stock.
Would that not mean that the Double-Orange would more likely start a fight with her/him rather than the other female? He is not leaving her/him alone, but he is not going after her/him as bad as he does towards the other.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

hi ingo - sorry to be the bearer of bad news - i just thought it may be a posibility. the females we get here in australia are never so colourful, so maybe she is just god stock. i also note that her first two 'spines' of the dorsal fin are quite short, so in fact she may wel be female. however, pointers against her are the absence of the tear stripe, and the amount of blue on her face, both of which i would be circumspect about. certainly if i saw her as a juvenile i would have my doubts. but anyway, only time will really tell.

regards,

justin

Sorry Tetra, more cichlid talk.

I wondered about your female too, as she does not show the usual yellow body colour of a female triple red here. My female does have a small proportion of the corresponding male colours to her fins & tail, but her body is yellow, which matches in with my female bita as well. I am certainly no expert, but this is just what I have observed from mine & others I've seen for sale. I'm probably far from right and would think your LFS who sold her to you would be a far better judge & they think her a girl - she she probably is. I haven't read your "link" above yet, so I'll go do that now.

Cheers
TW

Justin and Robyn,

Let me first get to the usual task for this weekend, then I will show more pictures and share some thoughts about the cross-dressing fishies.

So, Weekly Tank Update - Week 8

Not too much has happened to the tank during this week, the focus was more on fish that are not even in the tank yet.

During the water change this weekend, I came to the recognition that this tank in its current design is not working to well.

The keyword is instability. The easiest to fix is the CO2 tubing, which came off twice this week alone, not too good for constant water conditions. Harder to fix will be the driftwood. All these individual branches are very lose and this makes it hard to vacuum around them. I wonder if I should tie them all together or how else I would be able to keep them more solid.

On top of it, I begin to see your point with the micro swords not being effective and the hills being not even identifyable as such

Anyway, here is the tank from this weekend, after the water change:

Attached Image:

Full Tank

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Other things of concern is that I have now identified two Anubias Nana that have melting rhizomes. Slowly but steadily the entire plants melt away, losing about 1 leaf per week.

The Barteri doesn't look all that healthy either, certain areas of the various rhizomes show brown spots, usually the first sign of melting.

As you can see, overall I am not too happy. Here is a shot form a short side, looking at the Nana group.

Attached Image:

Nana Nana

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The last directly tank related picture is a top down shot to show the micro swords from that angle (someone requested that shot a while back).

The out-of focus spots on the picture are duckweed, the dark area is a driftwood flat on the surface. This shot was taken from the backside of the tank.

Attached Image:

Micro Swords

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Back to Apisto talk:

For the time being, I will still consider her female, too lazy to constantly type he/she and such.

Here is another shot of her, showing the tear stripe (thanks justing, I didn't know this marking has a specific name, makes lots of sense though), but also the blue facial markings. My female viejita (and she is a female for sure) has these markings as well, although much less):

Attached Image:

Female ?

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a shot of the two females, as you may even be able to detect from the shot the triple red is the more aggressive one. Rarely does it come to a direct confrontation, but if it does then it is usually solved by flashing and the orange one swims away. Once or twice I witnessed a picking though.

Attached Image:

Females ?

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Maybe even the orange female is a male in hiding, I am not even sure about that anymore. She also does not display a yellow body and no tear stripe at all.

Here is another look at the triple red. The one thing I notice is that her pelvic fins are quite a bit shorter than the male's (the dead one).

Overall, her entire body shape is rather different from the one the oranges have, she is more stocky.

The stock, by the way, is most likely from Germany, the capital of Apisto breeding. At least that is where the LFS thinks they get them from (wholesaler would know).

Attached Image:

Female Or Male ?

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is the only one I can be sure about, this guy is a male. His behavior is all male, flashing and chasing and what not. His pelvic fins are also longer than the ones of the triple red.

That is it for now, let me know what you think about tank and fish,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male !

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Whatever their sex, they are gorgeous & time will tell I guess. Eggs would be a nice way to settle it once & for all I agree you should call her a "she". That's what she was sold as, so that's more than likely what she is.

It seems that at least the aggression is enough under control for them to be swimming around the tank & pose for pictures. Mine are said to be German bred fish too.

I always enjoy looking & your tank & plants. I've had an anubias start dying on me & I think it was caused by me tying the fishing too tight & strangling the poor plant. No doubt that is not your problem, as you'd be able to see that.

Cheers
TW

You will see me in rage if it should turn out that I got 1 or 2 males in disguise and paid $75 for the set.

Maybe the male Orange is so agressive towards the female Orange because he notices that she is a male as well

Anyway, thanks for the compliments Robyn,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Lf,
Nice shots. Looking at the female? triple-red and looking at the orange-flash male I don't see much difference in fin size between the two, but I am by far no expert.

Nice microsword shot, but you never answered my question are the plants growing? Do you see fresh runners and are they growing taller as well?

I've mentioned ths before, but I have a good idea for your hills. If you intent on using the microswords as a foreground you need to get those hills much higher. It can be done with just rock work, but to make you life easier and provide moore stability you can use women's stockings.

Cut a womens' stockings into pieces and fill each with eco, making a sort of bunker out of them. Put some rocks against, on top, below the bunker of eco-filled stockings and this will give you good height and it will look natural. It will also provide more depth for the branches to be more staple.

Then you could move the microsword around in the lower area created and you should be able to see your mounds.



My Scapes

I have lost total faith on who of them may be a female. I will call the LFS on Monday and ask if they can be sure about the sexes they receive.

Great idea tetratech, I will have to think about how to restructure the tank. The raising of the hills crates a potential issue in overall height of the hardscape though, as I have only a total of 16" to work with. Guess I should have gotten the 50G instead.

The micro sword is still shedding original leaves in some parts of the tank, mostly where the light is limited (as expected). I see a few new sprouts creeping just off the plugs, but not too many.

Thanks for the compliments on the pics,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Females typically have a lot of the black coloration on their ventral fins, only one of the three has any, and it's slight enough that it could still be a male. Females generally don't have a lyrate caudal fin, the only one of yours that doesn't is the male. The cac spikes at the anterior of the dorsal fin are usually a dead giveaway, but none of the pics have any of them extending their dorsal fins, so I can't tell. The posterior of the dorsal fin is always a place to look as females have a more rounded look, while males are elongated. Nobody is yellow yet either, which comes with maturity, so that's out I guess.

Tough case you got there LF. I think one might be a female(with the black on the ventral fins), the other "female" still might be given some time to mature.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ok,

I will make one more attempt here with pictures and other info, this is driving me nuts

First of all, thanks Matty for the very detailed explanation on sexing Apistos, very helpful (and I thought young Rams are hard to sex).

I found This Site and I would like to quote some of the text:

Here is a part about Apistogramma gibbiceps: Males possess lyrate caudal fins. I point this out because it speaks of males only.

Here is the part about Apistogramma cacatuoides: The cacatuoides-group species are characterized by their robust but slightly elongate bodies, enlarged lips, extended anterior dorsal fin lappets, and usually lyrate caudal fins. No mention of male or female is attached to this section.

Anyway, here are a few shots. First the dorsal fin of the Triple-Red:

Attached Image:

Dorsal Fin

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here she is again, showing off her extended anterior dorsal fin lappets.

Matty - you said that this would be a give away, so following your statement this would be a male, right?

Attached Image:

All Fins

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matty,

Explain this sentence of yours: "Females generally don't have a lyrate caudal fin, the only one of yours that doesn't is the male." I have no idea which one you talk are talking about.

Here is a last shot of the Triple-Red:

Attached Image:

What is it?

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is the proposed Double-Orange female. Even when she raises her fins she does not have extended anterior dorsal fin lappets, actually they are very short.

She is the smallest of the group.

Attached Image:

Double-Orange Female I

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is another shot, I am not sure if it helps with something, but I am desperate so I guess any clue helps. Even the Triple-Red is now displaying towards her when she gets too close, but, unlike with the male Double-Orange, the Triple-Red is not actively persuing her.

Attached Image:

Double-Orange Female II

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And the last one of her, I believe it shows that she does not have a lyrate caudal fin.

I don't know

Attached Image:

Double-Orange Female III

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And just for comparison, the only one I am pretty sure about, the Male Double-Orange. He also does not have a lyrate caudal fin, but he sure has the extended anterior dorsal fin lappets.

I guess I will also post the male/female question in the Cichlid Forum, giving the question a larger exposure than us plant folks (ACIDRAIN is there once in a while).

The Confused Ingo

Attached Image:

Male Double-Orange

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matty - you said that this would be a give away, so following your statement this would be a male, right?

Yeaaaah....my somewhat educated guess for the triple red - male. It has extended anterior and posterior dorsal, along with the lyrate caudal(tail). I get the information about the lyrate caudal fin from the Mergus Cichlid Atlas V. 1. This info is cacatuoides specific:

"On reaching maturity they[males] develop a distinctly lyrate caudal fin, whereas the caudal fin is round or, at most, slightly truncate in females."

Who knows what intense breeding has done to the species though.

The "female" orange flash could be an immature male. It has one node on the caudal fin showing the start of a lyrate tail. It also has very extended posterior dorsal fin. I would say time will tell on this one.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Man,

That is all very confusing

Add to the mix that NowherMan6 had seen the "pair" of Triple-Red about a week before I bought them, and that he identified them as "playmates", at least they behaved as such.

Grrrrrr ....


Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo,
Thought you might be interested in this if you haven't seen it. It's a thread on APC shows a few pics (not great)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fish-for-the-planted-aquarium/28948-my-apistogramma-cacatuoides-double-red-just.html?highlight=Apistos

My Scapes

hi ingo,

i feel a bit bad for having started this whole thing, but remember, you are a caretaker for three beautiful little fish, and you can enjoy them regardless of gender. until there are definite signs such as the females yellowing up for breeding, or the absense of breeding, or them colouring up totally into males, there is really no way of knowing. i'm sure every memeber of fishprofiles has a weird gender-based fish story to tell. no fish shop should ever claim to sell 'pairs' of a fish which is as notoriously hard to sex as cacs, especially when they are juvies. subordinate male, alpha female, less colourful alpha male, wild-caught v line bred, it's all too tricky.

you take impeccable care of your tanks and there would appear to be no other reasons for them not to breed - so i think if the females are going to yellow up and start to court, they'll do it pretty soon. give them another week or so and if still no luck, then i think you might have gender issues.

*sigh* good luck, ingo.

justin

Ingo, sorry to hear about the mess

I would ask over at cichlid-forum.com, they should be able to give you plenty of opinions.

I definetely saw them being intimate in the LFS. The male came over to the other one, the other, rolled over onto its side and he started to wrap his body around the other. This doesnt seem like aggressive behavior to me, seems more like mating, or suggestive of mating.

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks guys,

Even looking at various links, the situation is not clear. I went to the LFS last night and talked to Tom, the head FW fish expert with whom I also arrange my Espei trade-ins. I asked him about the chances that the wholesaler got it all mixed up, and he confirms that this is theoretically a possibility. We bounced some thoughts of each other, like which fish to move to the 40G in order to see the other(s) show their true colors (genders), what to consider when trying to sex them, and what not. Overall we must have talked for at least 30 minutes, but neither him nor myself came to any solid conclusion.

So, here it the plan: I wait 4 weeks to see what happens

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Loooong time no new entries, so

Weekly Tank Update - Week 9 AND 10

Having not been too wild lately in reporting on my tanks, partially because of work load and partially because of vacation issues, the last two weeks will be handled in one sitting.

The first thing I did to my tank about a week ago was to replace the CO2 tubing with a gray one from ADA. I also moved it way down on the side, this way the glass diffuser cannot slip downwards out of the tube. And what can I say, so far it holds.

The main topic of this week is the fact that my thread disintegrated faster than the anubias could grab hold on rocks and wood, I had to retie quite a few of them this weekend and more are probably to follow.

Overall, the impression I get when I look at my tank is:

BORING

I am neither happy with the plants, nor with the structure. The anubias still show signs of melting, but the micro sword starts to spread, the only good thing.

All Otos are still alive.

Here is the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Last Week - Week 9

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I am considering to order new plants this week, but I don't know quite what to do. I for sure would need way more anubias in order to make an impression with them on the right side, but should I simply replicate them on the left side as well?

I am wondering if I should add the micro sword to the 125 instead, I think it would look better there. On the other hand, that tank has gravel and the plants may not root that well, not to mention that that tank is in a bad shape right now. And if I remove them from this tank, what should go in their place?

Here is the tank now:

Attached Image:

Now

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The only other thing worthwhile mentioning is the ongoing male/female discussion on the Apistos that are slated for this tank. I have a thread in the cichlid forum where pretty much all agree that the Triple-Red is a male, and most are undecided on the "female" Double-Orange. She is being chased by the male Double-Orange whenever he sees her, so she spends most of the time in hiding. The other two swim in the open, with the Double-Orange male dominating most of the tank and making sure that the Triple-Red doesn't get too daring.

Last shot for this update, the maybe female Double-Orange:

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Double-Orange

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey LF

The fun with your tanks continues!

That does look awfully male-like. One would think if it was a female she'd have the black eye band by now, and would be yellowed up... but I guess only they know. Honestly, even if they are all males you could always move the V. pair from the 125 out and move these three into there. They'll find their own territories. You could even contact a breeder and buy a few females to throw into the mix with them. Just an idea...

As for the tank, I still like the hardscape and I know where you're going with it. Once the java fern grows in it'll be a different story, but for now that huge Anubias has to go, it just throws everything waaay off. You can replace it with nanas maybe, but for now you'll have to wait for the ferns to grow in in order for the scape to fill out.

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks NowherMan6,

Can you imagine that I have 10 Nana's on the other hill right now? They are barely visible and don't make a large impact either. And at $5 a piece! I would need about 15 to 20 for the left side to make an impact there (given that 30% are melting on the initial 10).

Before I create a group of all male Apistos I will return the male (supposed) triple-red first and then purchase a female double-orange. If she then looks different than the supposed female above then it is good-bye to the latter as well (back to the LFS).

If I only would have known that I have all this trouble with the Cacs I would not have gotten even the first pair of them

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That's rather disappointing that the LFS would sell not one but TWO pairs of male Cacs. You'd think they'd be able to tell with at least one of them...

As for the scape - wow, it looks nothing like 10 nanas over there. IMO - and just a suggestion here - you may be better able to utilize them if rather than sitting them all in the middle between the wood, you tied them on up along the length of the wood at its base. The wood is thin, you could probably just use black twist ties to do the job. Then fill in the gaps along the base with crypts. They're a different leaf shape and will grow taller than the grass. Bronze wendtii 'tropica' would be nice since it'll stay low and have a nice color contrast as well.

I made a little mark up below, just to shor what im talking about - tie the anubias where the red circles are to that the leaves are sticking out towards the glass and a little bit up, vary it, then use crypts by the blue cirlces. Just an idea

Attached Image:

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

Good ideas, thanks a lot. These ideas would also be better incorporated if I could manage to get the inidividual branches to come out from a more focussed center on the individual hills. So far, my attempts to do so have all failed as the pieces themselves don't seem to cooperate to well with my twisted mind .

But yeah, these are 10 Nanas there. I recovered the picture from a few pages back that shows you the entire plant load that had been added. Note that each Nana does not contain more than maybe 5 leaves, some even less, and remember that I lost maybe 10 leaves so far to melting.

But you are right, the Barteri has to go, it was meant as a temp placeholder anyway until I figure out what to do with that side of the tank.

Ingo

Attached Image:

10 Nanas and Other Plants

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It is about 5:15AM and I am up since half past midnight. Today was the annual event at my LFS known as Midnight Madness, an event where the LFS is open from 11PM to 2AM. It sure is madness, as, when I arrived at about 1:20AM, I still had to wait over 20min in a line to even get into the store.

I didn't want to buy anything, for sure no new tank and no new fish. So, I ended up with a few nicely sized starter plants of Bolbitis heudelotii, or African Water Fern. I am planning on replacing the Barteri in the tank with this plant today.

Any advice would be appreciated before I get going around 11AM.

After coming back home at about 2:30AM I tried to go back to sleep, but I guess the coffee I had before I left showed its effect. It is going to be a tired day.

Ingo

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Today was the annual event at my LFS known as Midnight Madness,

Gee, I wouldn't mind going to starbucks and then midnight madness. They don't have that around me

I African fern looks nice and should be a good constrast with the microsword. Are you going to take some nana from the right group and use both nana and the african fern on both?

My Scapes

I think what this tank needs is a better photographer. Try taking some pictures of the tank at some different angles. From slightly above(not top view, but that might be nice too), the side, anything to show off the fact that it is viewable 360* and is planted for that purpose. You gotta get one of those pics we can rotate any direction we want. I'm sure this tank is way better in person.

The only other thing I can think of is to break up the microswords with some interesting plant here and there.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I think what this tank needs is a better photographer

Matty getting a little cocky after his perfect pearl shot.
Actually that's a good idea about the photos. A top down would be much more revealing.

My Scapes

Hey now, I didn't say that photographer should be me . I sneak out a good pic with my dinky camera every now and then though. It's not like Ingo's photos are bad, they are pretty good, just straight on. I think tank shots from the front straight on are great for tanks scaped to be viewed straight on, but this tank is meant to be viewable 360* and should be considered when taking pics of it. I would want to show that depth if it were my tank anyways. I think it would make it less boring as Ingo put it.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Yeah right Matty

Well, the recent shots of the tank on this page are in compliance with my weekly tank updates, all shot from the same angle to show differences in the tank without distortion of varying the position of the pictures. I will make sure that I will shoot some crazy angle pictures this weekend as well so Matty gets of my case .

Tetratech - Thanks for the heads up on the Bolbitis. I thought the same, the darker green should contrast nicely with the micro sword. For the time being, I will simply replace the Barteri with it, I don't have enough to split it between the two groups.

Ingo

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Weekly Tank Update - Week 11

The tank in itself has proven more stable than it used to be in the past ever since I added the more permanent plants. Only two additional Anubias leaves had shedded, I assume the disintegration of the rhizomes has stopped or is coming to an end.

The tank has seen some changes, as announced in an earlier post. First a small review of the tank over the last few weeks, and then a load of shots (on Matty's request ) from different angles and some details.

Here is the tank in week 4, the last weekend with the orginal growout plants in place:

Attached Image:

Week 4

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The we can fast forward to last weekend, the last week with the Mother Barteri in place. I always knew that this plant is only a placeholder, but it beat an empty spot any time:

Attached Image:

Last Weekend

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And here is the tank now this weekend. As announced, the Barteri is gone and some starter Bolbitis (African Water Fern) has been put in its place. This is most likely not the final positioning of this plant either, it will be more defined when additional plants are purchase (like more Nanas) and when I know what to do with the ground cover.

Attached Image:

Tank Now

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Here is a closer look at the Bolbitis group, from the main viewing side of the tank. I like the fact that it is of a darker green than the surrounding micro swords, it contrasts nicely.

Getting it onto the wood was not all that easy, I also tried to avoid tying it up to tightly as this may cause the roots to die off.

Attached Image:

Bolbitis

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Here is an even closer look at the Bolbitis. I like the shape of the leaves and if I had a choice then I would wish for it to stay like this, just fuller.

Quite a bit of Java Moss had been tangled up in the Bolitis, I hope I was able to remove it all as the last thing I want is some wild growing moss all over this tank.

Attached Image:

Closer

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And here is an even closer look at this plant.

One can see how the end pieces uncurl during the growth of the plant. Reminds me so much of emersed fern.

Does anyone know if this plant grows emersed as well?

Attached Image:

Closest

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Make sure to see the pictures on the bottom of the previous page

Here is a shot of the tank from the rear, taken in the classic Ingo-angle - straight on.

In this shot one can also see the bubble wand of CO2 rising from the repositioned diffuser on the left. Ever since the repositioning and the using of the ADA tubing I have no issues anymore with the hose coming off.

Attached Image:

Rear View

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And here is the tank from the same side, this time shot from a slight downwards angle but still trying to show most of the interior. It gives a little better view of the wood that creeps along the substrate and the rocks on the left island:

Attached Image:

Angled Back View

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And here is a shot from the main view, taken in a similar angle.

I don't really see much improvement from this angle vs. the straight on shot, except that one can see more depth of the micro sword and more of the Anubias group contained on the right hill.

Attached Image:

Angled Main View

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Going back to the rear view, here is a closeup of the Bolbitis group. If you look in front of that group you may notice some small crypts there. These are some plantlets from the Red Wendtii that I had in the 125G that had to go to make place for the Mother Barteri. I am not sure if they will grow in, but we will see.

Attached Image:

Also Crypts

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And here is another shot of the new Bolbitis group, taken from the left short side of the tank (in relationship to the main view).

From that angle, it looks pretty full.

Attached Image:

Left Side Shot

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The wood branches closest to the CO2 output show some reddish brown algae on them. This image, although un-altered, makes it appear worse than it really looks like when one is looking at the tank directly.

This algae comes from what again?

Attached Image:

Algae

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Another proof that the Anubias in this tank are settling in is that they begin to produce the first flowers (except for the ones they already had when I got them). Typically for all my new Anubias flowers in all tanks, they release a small stream of oxygen until they are open. No idea why

Attached Image:

New Anubias Flower

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Altough one would not notice from a full tank shot, the Blyxa is still there and doing fine. Growth is not very strong, but neither does it disintegrate.

Here are two of the 3 plants that I have in the tank. And yes, at some point they may be repositioned.

Attached Image:

Blyxa

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Here is now the last picture of plants in this tank, as requested a few times by tetratech.

The micro sword has settled to the point where rotting of individual leaves has stopped and the plants seriously start to spread via runners.

Here is a good example:

Attached Image:

Runners Running

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And here is the last shot for now, not even taken in this tank.

A nice shot of the male Double-Orange, although I have to say that his new growth on the fins is actually yellow and not orange. Maybe it will turn more orange over time.

Everything else with regards to my Apistos is still the same, I am most certain that all 3 are males

That is it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Apisto

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Well Matty, you asked for it

Like the fern I would much prefer to see the fern and the nana in each group (I know your ordering more).

The blyxa in my tank took a long-time to settle in. Before I saw any bushiness. Definitely as little shade as possible.

Thanks for the great microsword runner shot. That's good, sometimes that plant doesnt do anything. Did you lose any original leaves or did everything stay pretty much intact?

My Scapes

I really like your new Bolbitis. The shape of the leaves are very interesting. I haven't seen anything like that around here.

Everything is looking good.

Your double orange looks really pretty too, the yellow & orange make him look especially colourful. What are your plans, if you now think them all males?



Cheers
TW

TW - His plans are obviously to come down to my lfs where we have a tank full of orange flash females for $9.

Seriously though, Ingo. You want me to ship one out? We have oxygen in our store. That you cover expenses is all I would ask.

Well Matty, you asked for it

Sure did and thank you for the better angles of your tank. The shots from above really do improve the amount of depth percieved on this end of the internet. I knew it was there, but only because I've seen a 40 breeder before. I'd still like one from the side and an odd angle containing two panes of glass, is you ever happen to get a chance. Honestly I like the tank from the rear the best. The driftwood is pushed back a bit more and the rocks help create some depth there that you do'nt get from the "front". I'm definitely going to have to try some of that blyxa, once I get to the grassy feild stage in my tank. I like that stuff.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks you two for the input, here are the answers to your questions:

Micro Sword - I lost quite a bit of the initial load, that was to be expected as I had to bunch it into small plugs (ripped from a giant mat) to plant it. Some of the plantlings in these plugs may not have had rooting parts and as such died off, others may have been injured during the plugging.

Apisto Plans - First of all I am most convinced that I will return the male Triple-Red, maybe in a week or two. I may give the other Double-Orange a chance to color up some more, but he/she shows already signs of male finnage structure. Then I will try to have the LFS order me some female Double-Orange, 2 to be exact. Overall, this has been a frustrating experience and the first time the LFS (most likely) failed me twice in a row on a similar issue (selling me 2 pairs that are all male).

Ingo

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Wow Matty,

Didn't see your entry until after I posted mine.

I think that would be awesome, if you for sure would know that they are FEMALE DOUBLE-ORANGE (AKA ORANGE FLASH). So if you have them in the store, can you check if my "maybe" female double-orange looks anything like the ones you have?

Also, I will take more 2-pane shots especially for you , maybe tonight.

How would we go about the fish transfer, and when? I would be most certainly interested and of course pay all expenses.

Ingo

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Off the top of my head the subordinate males look like your maybe female. I know almost for certain we have them as orange flash, and looked as such to me when i saw them. The males with them either look like your definite male or maybe female. I'll go take a pic today, and if you like post it up here. If you like the pic, then I can run into the store tomorrow double bag with oxygen and send it out to you.

The only thing is that I'm unsure of the whole boxing thing, and how that's supposed to go. I know I'd obviously overnight it, but all our styros at the store are big. Being that it's summer and mild weather I could just jam a whole bunch of newspaper in an appropriate sized box. Any suggestions?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Please please please,

Take many pictures and post them here, preferably from a male, sub male, and loads of female shots.

My sub male/female shows all starter signs of being a male, elongated (albeit smaller than the other's) first rays of the dorsal fin, and elongated outer rays of the caudal fin.

About shipping: That was one of my biggest questions, the packaging. I never shipped or have received fish via mail in my whole life, so I have no idea. I for sure think that the more shock absorbtion is there the better it is, but that is all I know. I don't even know if one should mark the box with something like "Live Animals - Handle with Care".

Let's see the pictures and then we will know more. Maybe somebody else can join in and suggest a proper method.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Well we have what I think is a pretty good idea of a female cac orange flash, I got a couple people to concur with me:



Here's the most obvious male:



And a triple red female with male in background(I thought you still need one of these?):

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty, that triple red cac female looks like my agassiz female. . If my female is a cac female someone's gonna have a long day tomorrow.

Attached Image:


My Scapes

tetratech,

Female Apistos look a lot alike, even between species. There is not much difference between them, maybe the black line and the overall body shape vary mostly.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Are they of the same sex?

In any case, I am most certain that my Triple-Red is not a female, after seeing the picture from Matty. Matty, thousand thanks so far /:'

Attached Image:

Females?

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I believe mine's younger and still has more female traits than yours. The dorsal fin is more blunt and less colorful, and the caudal is not lyrate(though not visible in the pic very well. Most importantly IMO, the ventral fins are black.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Most importantly, the ventral fins are black

I also tried to identify this particular marking in your picture, but wasn't quite sure if that was the case. But if you say so, and combined with all other signs, I completely agree with you and say that I in fact have 3 MALES swimming in my QT

I will try to have a talk with the LFS tonight, if my time permits.

So, what now?

Ingo

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So, what now?

You let me know what(if) you want, and I'll send it to you. I'll dig up a thread on sending fish to see how to box it up.

EDIT: It sounds like any ol' box will do with some peanuts or styrofoam will do. In warm weather it seems it's unnecessary to use heater packs or actually use styrofoam as that's mostly for insulation. I'll use a box and probably wrap/pack with paper, double bag with oxygen if that's fine with you.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

That would be very nice of you, but can we hold off for one more day?

I would like to make a visit to the LFS tonight first to tell them my plan of action. Remember that these two pseudo females (one Triple-Red and one Double-Orange) cost me $50 to get, so I will have to secure the return policy first. Imagine that they, for whatever reason, insist on replacing them with females. Then I would have 4 and that is too much for a 40G with only two hills.

Thanks so much,

Ingo

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If we hold off a day it will have to wait until wednesday. I don't have any free time tomorrow until after 6:30. I definitely understand your concern, so we'll do it wednesday unless they want to give you another couple confused gender apistos.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks Matty,

Wednesday should be fine with me, definately better than today.

Ingo

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OK,

So I was at the LFS last night and had a long chat with the main freshwater guy, Tom. The main good thing was tat they had a tank with 6 female Double-Reds right there where we were talking(custom order for one person), and as soon as I saw it I could point out all the differences to mine. And there are sooooo many differences, like all the fins and the yellowing body color and the black in the ventral fin.

I pretty much cleared up any doubt and concluded that I have all males. Overall, we concluded the following:

- I will return both sub-males on Wednesday and hold on to the Double-Orange super male
- I will receive a $50 store credit for them
- I will ask Matty to send 2 Orange Flash females to arrive on Thursday
- If they make then that is that
- If they don't make it then I will order (custom) 2 females from the LFS, which may take up to 4 weeks

Now - should I move the male out of the QT so that in case of an illness in the new arrivals (like Ich) he would not be affected? Would make sense, but he would be in the unfinished 40G that may require some wood removal for more planting and stuff.

Ingo

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The apistos at our store looked pretty healthy and have been there a while, but I never tell anyone to risk it. I would put the male in the 40. Besides that the females are going to need some time to recover from the trip, and as I said, I do believe they are a bit younger than the male you have. It might be beneficial for them to have some time alone to beef up.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

That sounds like a good reason to move the male, I think I will do that tonight. Then I can focus tomorrow on the removal of the two sub-males and on Thursday on the addition of the two females from you. I hope you were able to put a hold on them.

Let me know what information you need from me to close the transfer deal.

Thanks again,

Ingo

EDIT: I also ordered 15 additional Anubias Nana for the tank.

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Sounds good LF - told ya, harems are the way to go

Also interested to see what you do with the anubias

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Back in the saddle!

Also interested to see what you do with the anubias

So am I, NowherMan6

I envision that I will plant them around the Bolbitis group, and maybe change the group on the right in that process as well.

Ingo

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OK,

The event of fish-switching has started with the first leg, putting the male in the 40G. He was an easy catch in the QT as he is strotting around it like he owns that place (I guess he does). So forcing him into the open left front corner was a breeze, and from there it took 2 seconds until he was in the net.

Here he is now, still in the bag, on his at least one hour adjustment to the water params of the 40G:

Attached Image:

In the Bag

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Gorgeous fish

><>

Ditto, gorgeous fish

Cheers
TW

Thanks superlion, (EDIT: and Robyn, didn't see your entry til now)

Always appreciated when others like the same fishies than I do.

Here he is about 1 minute after the release, and about 10 seconds before going into hiding under the driftwood of the left hill. I knew that natural cave there will be good for something.

Attached Image:

Right After Release

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Why is his body so dark in both pics. I understand stress, is he that dark or is it the pic.

My Scapes

tetratech,

You may remember the black tear stripe that my male viejita has. He can turn that one on and off depending if he feels threatened or not. The Double-Orange has not really shown such a bar to me (the triple-red does), instead, his whole body turns dark when stressed or threatened.

Here he is exploring the filter intake (not pictured), a first contact situation, aka stress:

Attached Image:

Stressed

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And here he is in the open after adjusting a little, no threatening entity near by, just me .

That is pretty much his all-day-non-stress body color, I have not seen him change into a mating outfit as he has no females

Attached Image:

More Relaxed

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And here is one of the reasons why I will not have to worry about his food intake for the next few days, the last few weeks have seen a healthy growth in the snail population (see also the pic of him 3 shots back, there are snail eggs on the glass).

Attached Image:

Argh

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More Relaxed

O.K. where's "Totally Relaxed"

My Scapes

nice pics. My naughty apistos don't seem to know they should eat snails. Wish they'd read up the facts, get on the programme & start munching.

Cheers
TW

hmmm....yep, I think that one's a male Ingo .

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

tetratech - I don't think I have ever seen him totally relaxed as he always had to be on guard to show the other 2 (males) who is the boss in the 20 QT. Maybe he will surprise me once he sees females.

Robyn - you don't see your Apistos performing stealth attacks to decoration and substrate, and then picking up invisible things? That's the snails. Mine would never eat a large one like the one in the picture above, but they will keep the small ones in check.

Matty - Gee thanks, let's just hope that your females don't look like him then

Ingo

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$5 says Matty sends LF two more males just for a lark... any takers?

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Back in the saddle!

I will drop them off at your house then, Rich

Matty would never do that, right ?



Ingo

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You can drop them off at my house if you want! I like them!

Congrats on getting things figgured out with your fish and that the LFS hooked you up.

As for the Anubias. Nana is going to be much better than the normal sized but Pette (how ever you spell that) would be much cooler. The smaller the plants the larger the tank looks.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wingsdlc,

About the LFS hooking me up: that was Matty and not the LFS, they only take back the supposed females and give me store credit (what should I buy then for that money, cories?)

Nanas:

You may not know (or remember) this, but I have 5 Nana Petite in my 125G, all the way in front of the Java Fern. I have them since a few months now and their size is still pretty small.

Here is some math:

- One can easily assume that at least 4 Petites are needed to fill the space occupied by one regular Nana, even when not fully grown yet.
- The hill on the right of my tank contains 10 Nanas at $5 each.
- To replace them with Petites, I would need 40 of them at $8 a piece (same retailer, not to mention that getting 40 at once would be a huge problem).
- That means that my total cost, just for that hill, went from $50 to $320

Honestly, as nice as they are, they are not worth that much money for me.

If you have a cheap and relaible source for them, let me know.

Ingo

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I under stand whats going on with the fish. I ment it was nice for them to take them back for credit. They could have said "Sorry!".

I see your point with the Anubias. Using the Petite would get just a little pricey. Nana will still be much better than the regular.

$50......

Corries would be pretty cool but you have to get neat ones.

What about a 4L jug of Flourish?


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

What about a 4L jug of Flourish?

What about one? I just got a 2L jug.

The wife just called and told me that the Anubias have already arrived and I have no time to plant them tonight. I guess I will have to float them for a few days (until the weekend).

Ingo

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OK well I sent Ingo two more males today...it was males you wanted right?

Well, for real I sent out the two most feminine looking apisto cac "orange flash" that I could get my hands on. Both were turning yellow, had a lot of black on thier ventral fins, had a bluntish dorsal fin, and their caudal fins were definitely not lyrate. The black eye markings were showing up as well. I didn't bring my camera, so I will let LF do the honors tomorrow.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I am sure that your anubias will be fine floating for a few days. Didn't tetra have a bunch of it in a bucket in his garage for months?

Matt you are such a nice guy. I can't wait to see the fish you sent him!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks wings. I can't wait to see them in his tank either. And as I told him over pm, if they make it and we see some breeding activity maybe even some eggs and fry it will be MORE than worth the little trouble(no trouble really, I had to stop in there anyways, and I had 3 hrs to kill between classes). Even if they just make it and live out healthy lives it will be worth it.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well Matty,

Although I expressed my thanks to you already in the PM, I would like to repeat them here. I find it very honerable that you ship to fish to a dude in NJ whom you have never met. And then you don't even want to get paid for it

Don't worry, just returning the 2 males joke

Anyway, I can't wait to get them tomorrow and hope they will be all right in transit.

Here is a short picture story of today's events. First off the Anubias order came in. They sent me one more, total of 16, maybe because 2 of them had only 3 leaves:

Attached Image:

16 Anubias

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Next, I stuffed them in the tank and tried to position them around the wood pieces so they don't float up too close to the light:

Attached Image:

All in Tank

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Then it was time to catch the (fe)males for the return to the LFS. I thought it would be pretty hard to get them, in particular the very shy double-orange. But, after removing the light and the glass top from the tank it was almost a breeze and took me maybe one minute to catch them both, with the above mentioned one being one of the easiest fish I ever caught.

Here they are:

Attached Image:

Bagged Up

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A last close-up of the male Triple-Red, the first one to be re-classified as being male. As such, I guess he cannot be really called Triple-Red as there is no red in his fins what-so-ever.

Good bye, my friend

Attached Image:

Good Bye TR

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