FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Off the top of my head the subordinate males look like your maybe female. I know almost for certain we have them as orange flash, and looked as such to me when i saw them. The males with them either look like your definite male or maybe female. I'll go take a pic today, and if you like post it up here. If you like the pic, then I can run into the store tomorrow double bag with oxygen and send it out to you.

The only thing is that I'm unsure of the whole boxing thing, and how that's supposed to go. I know I'd obviously overnight it, but all our styros at the store are big. Being that it's summer and mild weather I could just jam a whole bunch of newspaper in an appropriate sized box. Any suggestions?

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Please please please,

Take many pictures and post them here, preferably from a male, sub male, and loads of female shots.

My sub male/female shows all starter signs of being a male, elongated (albeit smaller than the other's) first rays of the dorsal fin, and elongated outer rays of the caudal fin.

About shipping: That was one of my biggest questions, the packaging. I never shipped or have received fish via mail in my whole life, so I have no idea. I for sure think that the more shock absorbtion is there the better it is, but that is all I know. I don't even know if one should mark the box with something like "Live Animals - Handle with Care".

Let's see the pictures and then we will know more. Maybe somebody else can join in and suggest a proper method.

Thanks again,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well we have what I think is a pretty good idea of a female cac orange flash, I got a couple people to concur with me:



Here's the most obvious male:



And a triple red female with male in background(I thought you still need one of these?):

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty, that triple red cac female looks like my agassiz female. . If my female is a cac female someone's gonna have a long day tomorrow.

Attached Image:


My Scapes

tetratech,

Female Apistos look a lot alike, even between species. There is not much difference between them, maybe the black line and the overall body shape vary mostly.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Are they of the same sex?

In any case, I am most certain that my Triple-Red is not a female, after seeing the picture from Matty. Matty, thousand thanks so far /:'

Attached Image:

Females?

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I believe mine's younger and still has more female traits than yours. The dorsal fin is more blunt and less colorful, and the caudal is not lyrate(though not visible in the pic very well. Most importantly IMO, the ventral fins are black.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Most importantly, the ventral fins are black

I also tried to identify this particular marking in your picture, but wasn't quite sure if that was the case. But if you say so, and combined with all other signs, I completely agree with you and say that I in fact have 3 MALES swimming in my QT

I will try to have a talk with the LFS tonight, if my time permits.

So, what now?

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So, what now?

You let me know what(if) you want, and I'll send it to you. I'll dig up a thread on sending fish to see how to box it up.

EDIT: It sounds like any ol' box will do with some peanuts or styrofoam will do. In warm weather it seems it's unnecessary to use heater packs or actually use styrofoam as that's mostly for insulation. I'll use a box and probably wrap/pack with paper, double bag with oxygen if that's fine with you.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

That would be very nice of you, but can we hold off for one more day?

I would like to make a visit to the LFS tonight first to tell them my plan of action. Remember that these two pseudo females (one Triple-Red and one Double-Orange) cost me $50 to get, so I will have to secure the return policy first. Imagine that they, for whatever reason, insist on replacing them with females. Then I would have 4 and that is too much for a 40G with only two hills.

Thanks so much,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

If we hold off a day it will have to wait until wednesday. I don't have any free time tomorrow until after 6:30. I definitely understand your concern, so we'll do it wednesday unless they want to give you another couple confused gender apistos.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks Matty,

Wednesday should be fine with me, definately better than today.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK,

So I was at the LFS last night and had a long chat with the main freshwater guy, Tom. The main good thing was tat they had a tank with 6 female Double-Reds right there where we were talking(custom order for one person), and as soon as I saw it I could point out all the differences to mine. And there are sooooo many differences, like all the fins and the yellowing body color and the black in the ventral fin.

I pretty much cleared up any doubt and concluded that I have all males. Overall, we concluded the following:

- I will return both sub-males on Wednesday and hold on to the Double-Orange super male
- I will receive a $50 store credit for them
- I will ask Matty to send 2 Orange Flash females to arrive on Thursday
- If they make then that is that
- If they don't make it then I will order (custom) 2 females from the LFS, which may take up to 4 weeks

Now - should I move the male out of the QT so that in case of an illness in the new arrivals (like Ich) he would not be affected? Would make sense, but he would be in the unfinished 40G that may require some wood removal for more planting and stuff.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The apistos at our store looked pretty healthy and have been there a while, but I never tell anyone to risk it. I would put the male in the 40. Besides that the females are going to need some time to recover from the trip, and as I said, I do believe they are a bit younger than the male you have. It might be beneficial for them to have some time alone to beef up.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

That sounds like a good reason to move the male, I think I will do that tonight. Then I can focus tomorrow on the removal of the two sub-males and on Thursday on the addition of the two females from you. I hope you were able to put a hold on them.

Let me know what information you need from me to close the transfer deal.

Thanks again,

Ingo

EDIT: I also ordered 15 additional Anubias Nana for the tank.

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sounds good LF - told ya, harems are the way to go

Also interested to see what you do with the anubias

---

Back in the saddle!

Also interested to see what you do with the anubias

So am I, NowherMan6

I envision that I will plant them around the Bolbitis group, and maybe change the group on the right in that process as well.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK,

The event of fish-switching has started with the first leg, putting the male in the 40G. He was an easy catch in the QT as he is strotting around it like he owns that place (I guess he does). So forcing him into the open left front corner was a breeze, and from there it took 2 seconds until he was in the net.

Here he is now, still in the bag, on his at least one hour adjustment to the water params of the 40G:

Attached Image:

In the Bag

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Gorgeous fish

><>

Ditto, gorgeous fish

Cheers
TW

Thanks superlion, (EDIT: and Robyn, didn't see your entry til now)

Always appreciated when others like the same fishies than I do.

Here he is about 1 minute after the release, and about 10 seconds before going into hiding under the driftwood of the left hill. I knew that natural cave there will be good for something.

Attached Image:

Right After Release

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Why is his body so dark in both pics. I understand stress, is he that dark or is it the pic.

My Scapes

tetratech,

You may remember the black tear stripe that my male viejita has. He can turn that one on and off depending if he feels threatened or not. The Double-Orange has not really shown such a bar to me (the triple-red does), instead, his whole body turns dark when stressed or threatened.

Here he is exploring the filter intake (not pictured), a first contact situation, aka stress:

Attached Image:

Stressed

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here he is in the open after adjusting a little, no threatening entity near by, just me .

That is pretty much his all-day-non-stress body color, I have not seen him change into a mating outfit as he has no females

Attached Image:

More Relaxed

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is one of the reasons why I will not have to worry about his food intake for the next few days, the last few weeks have seen a healthy growth in the snail population (see also the pic of him 3 shots back, there are snail eggs on the glass).

Attached Image:

Argh

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

More Relaxed

O.K. where's "Totally Relaxed"

My Scapes

nice pics. My naughty apistos don't seem to know they should eat snails. Wish they'd read up the facts, get on the programme & start munching.

Cheers
TW

hmmm....yep, I think that one's a male Ingo .

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

tetratech - I don't think I have ever seen him totally relaxed as he always had to be on guard to show the other 2 (males) who is the boss in the 20 QT. Maybe he will surprise me once he sees females.

Robyn - you don't see your Apistos performing stealth attacks to decoration and substrate, and then picking up invisible things? That's the snails. Mine would never eat a large one like the one in the picture above, but they will keep the small ones in check.

Matty - Gee thanks, let's just hope that your females don't look like him then

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

$5 says Matty sends LF two more males just for a lark... any takers?

---

Back in the saddle!

I will drop them off at your house then, Rich

Matty would never do that, right ?



Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You can drop them off at my house if you want! I like them!

Congrats on getting things figgured out with your fish and that the LFS hooked you up.

As for the Anubias. Nana is going to be much better than the normal sized but Pette (how ever you spell that) would be much cooler. The smaller the plants the larger the tank looks.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wingsdlc,

About the LFS hooking me up: that was Matty and not the LFS, they only take back the supposed females and give me store credit (what should I buy then for that money, cories?)

Nanas:

You may not know (or remember) this, but I have 5 Nana Petite in my 125G, all the way in front of the Java Fern. I have them since a few months now and their size is still pretty small.

Here is some math:

- One can easily assume that at least 4 Petites are needed to fill the space occupied by one regular Nana, even when not fully grown yet.
- The hill on the right of my tank contains 10 Nanas at $5 each.
- To replace them with Petites, I would need 40 of them at $8 a piece (same retailer, not to mention that getting 40 at once would be a huge problem).
- That means that my total cost, just for that hill, went from $50 to $320

Honestly, as nice as they are, they are not worth that much money for me.

If you have a cheap and relaible source for them, let me know.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I under stand whats going on with the fish. I ment it was nice for them to take them back for credit. They could have said "Sorry!".

I see your point with the Anubias. Using the Petite would get just a little pricey. Nana will still be much better than the regular.

$50......

Corries would be pretty cool but you have to get neat ones.

What about a 4L jug of Flourish?


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

What about a 4L jug of Flourish?

What about one? I just got a 2L jug.

The wife just called and told me that the Anubias have already arrived and I have no time to plant them tonight. I guess I will have to float them for a few days (until the weekend).

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK well I sent Ingo two more males today...it was males you wanted right?

Well, for real I sent out the two most feminine looking apisto cac "orange flash" that I could get my hands on. Both were turning yellow, had a lot of black on thier ventral fins, had a bluntish dorsal fin, and their caudal fins were definitely not lyrate. The black eye markings were showing up as well. I didn't bring my camera, so I will let LF do the honors tomorrow.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I am sure that your anubias will be fine floating for a few days. Didn't tetra have a bunch of it in a bucket in his garage for months?

Matt you are such a nice guy. I can't wait to see the fish you sent him!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks wings. I can't wait to see them in his tank either. And as I told him over pm, if they make it and we see some breeding activity maybe even some eggs and fry it will be MORE than worth the little trouble(no trouble really, I had to stop in there anyways, and I had 3 hrs to kill between classes). Even if they just make it and live out healthy lives it will be worth it.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well Matty,

Although I expressed my thanks to you already in the PM, I would like to repeat them here. I find it very honerable that you ship to fish to a dude in NJ whom you have never met. And then you don't even want to get paid for it

Don't worry, just returning the 2 males joke

Anyway, I can't wait to get them tomorrow and hope they will be all right in transit.

Here is a short picture story of today's events. First off the Anubias order came in. They sent me one more, total of 16, maybe because 2 of them had only 3 leaves:

Attached Image:

16 Anubias

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Next, I stuffed them in the tank and tried to position them around the wood pieces so they don't float up too close to the light:

Attached Image:

All in Tank

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Then it was time to catch the (fe)males for the return to the LFS. I thought it would be pretty hard to get them, in particular the very shy double-orange. But, after removing the light and the glass top from the tank it was almost a breeze and took me maybe one minute to catch them both, with the above mentioned one being one of the easiest fish I ever caught.

Here they are:

Attached Image:

Bagged Up

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

A last close-up of the male Triple-Red, the first one to be re-classified as being male. As such, I guess he cannot be really called Triple-Red as there is no red in his fins what-so-ever.

Good bye, my friend

Attached Image:

Good Bye TR

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the Double-Orange, probably looking his most male ever in any shots I have taken of him (assuming it was a her). This one took a while before showing clearer signs of manhood.

One day, he actually could be a very handsome Double-Orange.

Good buy, my friend

Attached Image:

Good Bye, DO

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Once I had them in the store, even Tom, the main freshwater guy, could see that they were male, and I got my store credit without any problems. I hope he will find them nice homes.

And here is the one that is awaiting the arrival of his two wives, although hey for sure will go into the QT for a while first.

Thanks, and now its time for bed,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male DO, remaining in Tank

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yeah, mine are much more feminine. I'm not sure if I should be bragging about that though. No doubt anymore what those two were. It can happen, I guess. It just kills me that 2 pair were that way.

LF, your bagging skillzzz are definitely lacking. Look how saggy those are. They look like a pair of 70 year old....well you get the idea. At least you bagged them with a proper amount of air. Most fish we get come in either tupperware, or a clozed ziplock full of water and no air.

And you are very welcome Ingo, I hate to see a fellow aquarium enthusiast in trouble

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I have to say that DO male looks particularly cranky to be kicked out of the tank & into the plastic bag .

The male that you've chosen to keep has particularly beautiful coloured fins. Good choice.

Looking forward to seeing the new arrivals.

Cheers
TW

Matty,

Funny thing about the two pairs that I got with all of them being male: they came from 2 different wholesalers. Yeah, my bagging skills are lacking, mostly because I am too hesitant to give the bag a good twist and stuff when closing off the top. I never want to give the fish more inconvenience than needed, and given that the LFS is about 10 min away they had way more air than needed anyway.

Robyn,

Yeah, I have never seen the bagged DO spread its fins like that in the tank, probably because he would have provoked the other two quite a bit by doing so.
I don't think I even had to spend one second on deciding which one to keep, it was natural to me to keep the dominant one. I don't want to end up with a male that might spend his days hiding in a film canister instead of showing off his finnage .

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

a male that might spend his days hiding in a film canister instead of showing off his finnage

Aggggh, that's exactly what my wimp is doing, hiding from his wife.

Cheers
TW

Aggggh, that's exactly what my wimp is doing, hiding from his wife.

Gee - I wonder why I was writing this in the first place? Hm, maybe it had to do with the photo in your log

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I knew exactly why you wrote that, as soon as I read it

Cheers
TW

8/31/2006 5:41:00 AM ARRIVAL SCAN PARSIPPANY, NJ US

Uh, I guess it will be at my house soon then
How long would you guys think the fish are good in the bag?

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Have you taught your wife how to acclimatise. I am able to trust my daughter that she knows how to do this. She knows the drill - lights out, float the bag & then very, very gradual small additions of tank water to the bag over a period of at least an hour or more. Release the fish & leave the lights out to reduce stress while new fish settles.

Could you explain all this to your wife?

Cheers
TW

Male DO, remaining in Tank

Looks like he's saying "Where are the women, give me women, lots and lots of women"



My Scapes

How long would you guys think the fish are good in the bag?

I can only judge by looking at them in the bag. If they look bad, it's a quick acclimation and a dump into the tank. Sometimes fish can last days and days in the bag. Sometimes much less. I was pretty careful with the bagging for your fish, with oxygen and what not, so I would think they'd be ok. They were guaranteed to arrive right about now(10:30am).

To really answer your question, at work they double bagged a feeder goldfish in a bag like those in your pics and left it in the store to see how long it would last. It was a little bet between the management. At two weeks the thing was still alive and let back into the tank, or maybe it was fed to an oscar or something.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

It was a little bet between the management. At two weeks the thing was still alive and let back into the tank, or maybe it was fed to an oscar or something.

Goldfish get no respect! Matty have you ever ad those bags that the o2 flows thru?

My Scapes

They were guaranteed to arrive right about now(10:30am).

Grrrr, the wife is out right now, I hope they did not take the package back with them.

I will keep you posted.

Tetratech - yeah, I am sure the male will be happy once he gets his girls, in about 2 weeks or so.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

No, we've never had those "breathable" bags. The regular old plastic jobbies seem to get the job done well enough for business I guess. The most important time to use it would be shipping, and we don't get much of a say in what bags we get the fish in. So I don't think the store would spend the extra money(unfortunately) to get the breathable bags for the people who are driving the fish to their house down the street. I would like to try some of those out though. Anybody else ever tried them out?

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

OMG

THE RECEIVER WAS UNAVAILABLE TO SIGN ON THE 1ST DELIVERY ATTEMPT. A 2ND DELIVERY ATTEMPT WILL BE MADE

I cannot believe they didn't simply leave the package at the house

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I believe the way it works is, on overnight deliveries, if it's not specified that the package should be left at the door they won't leave it.

Will the next delivery attempt be made today or tomorrow? Was it shipped Fedex? You may be able to get them to hold it for you at a FedEx location if you call them up, or you may be able to get them to contact the driver and have him/ her leave it at the door if another attempt will be made today.

If they're not going to try again until tomorrow, i would call them and have them re-route the box to your work office for tomorrow. That way you can at least check them out, make sure they're OK, open the bag if necessary and re-tie it with more air etc. I know those port authority bus rides are killer but it may be worth it for the fishies...

---

Back in the saddle!

Best bet would be to call them and see if you can get a hold of the package today. Either having it re dropped at your house or see if you can pick it up from the wearhouse.

One of my co-workers used to work for Fedex and he said it didn't matter what the package said on it, they were all treated with the same handling. You can guess how that is.

Best wishes!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I called the UPS number and found out - from a machine - that the 2nd delivery attempt would be made tomorrow

I then talked to an operator and we concluded that he will call me back within an hour to let me know if they can attempt a second delivery today. If not, if - and when - I would be able to pick them up at a UPS Center, about at least 40min away from my house, given that it is not rush hour.

Not good,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The emotions are going down and up, that creates a tremendous stress on my, I am so hyped up.

UPS tried to call the driver but he was out at lunch so they left him a message. Shortly after that, our regular UPS guy shows up at our house with a delivery and, after talking to my wife, tells her that the fish are on the truck of his bosses van a few blocks away. He brought them in just before 3PM.

Now they are in the hands of the wife, who has never acclimated a fish in her life. I gave her instructions last night, and I guided her over the phone through the process of putting the bag into the tank, now she is on her own. But I have faith.

Oh - obvioulsy, both are still alive, that is all I know about their condition right now.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thats great LF! I am very happy for you. I am sure your wife will take good care of them. I know I could trust my wife with such things too!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Good to hear LF. I trust you didn't give her drip method instructions, did you?

---

Back in the saddle!

No, I told her to add one small measuring cup every 7 min, 5 times, and then another 5 times the double load.

That should do. The critical part will be her having to fish them out of the bag without smushing them or dropping them on the floor.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I believe the way it works is, on overnight deliveries, if it's not specified that the package should be left at the door they won't leave it.

I'm sorry about this Ingo, I thought it was the other way around, that I had to specify that a signature was necessary. At least that's the way it's worked with me before. I suppose I should've said that it was to be delivered by 10:30 too. I'm not very good at these things, but I hope they are doing well.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty no problem, you did your best and better than I would have done

Anyway:



I decided on a different acclimatization plan. Instead of doubling the dosage half way through I decided to have the wife add the single dosage until I came home. This way she didn't have to fish them out of the bag. That means that they have been acclimated for over 2 hours. Well I released them, and in addition I removed the only adult male platy from the tank (into the 29) as he is rather mean to new entries and Matty's Apistos are smaller than the ones that were in there before. Next I turned on the light.

Just a few minutes later they came out from hiding (but not for too long) and one can already see that one of them will be the female boss (larger). But, without a doubt, they are females (or very very good acting males ).

Later, they came back out and started to eat "substrate", or whatever invisible food they find in it.

Here is the boss-female

Attached Image:

Boss Female

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is a picture of the other female. Besides being a little smaller she also looks a little more beat up from the trip, but not so bad that I worry about her.

Now I have to make sure that they get good and enough food so they put on their party dress.

Attached Image:

Other Female

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey, those look familiar


*let's out sigh of relief* Glad they got there safe and sound. I think it's a good thing you put the male into the 40. He probably would have been a little too rough on the new girls, as I said they are a bit on the smaller side, but were good and healthy(when they left at least). The second smaller one looks to have gotten a bit skinny, and her caudal fins a bit beat up. I guess that's manageable though. The first female looks pretty good though. Hope it's all smooth sailing from here/:'

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Yay, Yipee, Yahoo for the safe arrival. They look sooo much more like females. I never thought your others did, right from the start. You really wonder how the breeders made such a mistake twice, when even a know nothing like me thinks they see a problem.

The girls may not put on their party dress until they are with the male. My triple red doesn't seem to have a breeding dress - she's just yellow all the time. But the troublesome twosome, I had them separated for a time when there was agression. During separation - no party dress at all. But within 30 mins of re-joining the male, there she was, dressed up to hilt.

Anyway, now you can relax and have fun.

Plus a big cheer for a first time acclimatisation by your wife. I knew she could do it. /:'

Cheers
TW

LF,

Congrats! on the safe arrival of your new fish.
Listen, I'm not trying to stir up anything, but your tellimg me one of these fish is a female agassizi and the other a cac.

Attached Image:


My Scapes

Well what can you say, most apisto females look very similar. Probably wouldn't be able to tell at all until they are adults, and even then it's pretty difficult. Agassizi females will have shorter dorsal fins and generally the only markings in casual dress is the eye stripe and a dot in the middle of the body. Cac females have a tiny bit of the dorsal spike in them and pretty much always have a full dark stripe across the body. Her caudal fin might be a bit flatter as well, because male cacs have a lyrate caudal fin, while agassizis have a lanceolate caudal fin.

I dunno if that helps at all.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks all for the input.

For the rest of last evening the fishies were busy finding food in the tank, in particular the younger one (but also the other oneZ) did not quite understand that the flakes that are raining down are food. Same happened to my previous Apistos when they were new in the tank, so I don't worry about it.

About the agassizi female: tetratech, I don't think that yours is a cac (but hey, I had 2 males for 4 weeks and thought they were females ). Your picture seems to match them closely, but this is only because your fish swims in an angle to the camera and as such appears shorter than she is. I believe to remember that she is more elongated than cacs. And I have seen female agassizi pictures where there is a full horizontal stripe and not only a black dot (I also think I have seen this in person in the LFS).

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

hi ingo,
well, i hate to say i told you so...hehehe!! i felt like such a prat when i said they looked like males, but it turns out alright in the end! those two new fish both look like lovely little ladies to me! i'm sure you'll have little broods in no time at all once you reintroduce yr male. best of luck,

justin

ps - as regards the agassizi female above, i've never seen a female cac's body stripe extend in front of the eye, whereas i'm pretty sure this is standard in the agassizi - but hell, the females all do look rather similar.

i hate to say i told you so...hehehe!!

And right you were, thanks for bringing it up at that time as that was the trigger for the recent events.

On the Apisto frontier, not much new to report except that the smaller female did something I have not seen before in a fish. She was sitting on the substrate and wiggled her back half from side to side, not just the way back like they would do when maintaining position in a current. It looked like she is spreading out eggs, but that would be very unlikely. Otherwise, she is fine.

Here are both of them in a shot from last night:

Attached Image:

Females

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

i've never seen a female cac's body stripe extend in front of the eye, whereas i'm pretty sure this is standard in the agassizi

Good catch jase. I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. It's amazing how they look similiar with the black on the front of the dorsal and then the orange, etc...

The look good LF

My Scapes

Yeah,

Justin for sure seems to know his Apistos, he easily puts my sense for detail to shame

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Weekly Tank Update - Week 12

The tank has seen a few changes during the past week, mostly with the addition of the 16 new Anubias Nana. The initial plan was to make their position more permanent this weekend as I just stuck them in the tank during the week when they arrived, but a lack of time, motivation, and inspiration left me with them as they were before the water change. In order to make them more permanent a few other things in the tank would have to change as well, and I know that process would take me a few hours to complete.

The other change was the addition of the male Apisto so he is not molesting my new females that I received kindly from Matty.

Here is the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Last Week

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the tank now this weekend.

The additional changes I am talking about include probably both wood groups as I am still not too happy about how fragile these arrangements are. Basically, ever water change moves some branches around and I am constantly worried to smush one of the Otos underneath. Also, cleaning the glass is pretty hard as my hand touches the branches and they fall over or at least get pushed out of place.

Attached Image:

Tank Now

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The one plant that is rather a dissapointment in this tank is the Micro Sword. I think it would look better in my 125G if it would be able to spread in gravel substrate as well as it does in this tank (btw, not the fasted spreader, so far).

Here is a look at the center section of the tank. As you may see, the swords are rather untidy and don't do much to the look. I think I will start off with emptying out the most center part of it, all the way from front to back. This will at least help to promote the idea of hills a little more than the current setup does.

Attached Image:

Swords In Center

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

On a positive note, my Anubias from the first installment are getting their first flowers that were completely grown in my tank (I had some before, but they were inherited from the grower).

Here is the stage a few days before opening:

Attached Image:

Nana Flower To Be

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now a few pictures as a tribute to Matty and the very nice fishies he provided me with.

First off, the weaker female, although I begin to see that she is not too intimidated by the other one. Her caudal fin is still a little beaten up, but this has so far never been an issue for any of my fishies, most of them were a little "under the weather" when they arrived.

Attached Image:

Female Orange Flash

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is a shot of the other female, she has been in excellent shape when she arrived this week. I have rarely had a fish with so little damage to fins, no matter what species:

Attached Image:

Other Female

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is another look at her, given that I usually take most of my pictures when the full side of the fish is visible. She is a little more out in the open than the other one, but both of them are not constant hiders either:

Attached Image:

Female

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is probably the best shot I got of her so far, but hopefully I will have many more chances to get even better ones.

Now, having these fish at hand, I cannot believe that I have been unable to identify the other ones as males. It is so obvious now. Nevertheless, I hope my two males (pseudo females) will find nice homes.

Attached Image:

Good Posing

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

View pictures and comments on previous page as well, please.

Here is the last one of the female shots, I promise (at least for this session )

The interaction between the females is way more friendly than the one between the males was. Yes, they also try to clear the rankings, but on a much less aggressive scale. Mostly, a slap with the caudal fin can be seen, occasionally a little nudge with the mouth to the side. But more often than not the stronger one is following the weaker one at a slow pace, no chasing per se.

And one can also observe them swimming together once in a while, like here:

Attached Image:

2 Females

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Lastly, here is the man that awaits their arrival in this tank. He must be very lonely these days as the Otos don't really care about him and as he had spent the previous almost 4 weeks fending off the other two males in the QT.

He finally understood the feeding in this tank. He had a little problem aiming for the food on the surface with all the duck weed and the rather fast flow of the water. I turned down the filter output for the time being.

Attached Image:

Male

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
That male looks like it's fins are on fire. Really a stunner.

It's funny in fish the male is usually the beauty and the female is well "eh"

My Scapes

tetratech,

Yeah, I like him very much, and he is not even fully grown yet. He should grow at least one more inch. Thanks for the compliment.

And about the fish male being the beauty, well that is the same here, I am just unbelievably handsome

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I noticed that the females at times both swim together & I hope that bodes well for a peaceful tank when all 3 are joined.

I have not seem many male orange flashes, but of those I have, yours is the prettiest by far.

Enjoy.

Cheers
TW

have not seem many male orange flashes, but of those I have, yours is the prettiest by far.

I haven't seen many of them either, honestly I didn't even know they exist until I went to the LFS to get a replacement for the dead male Triple-Red.

He looks in particular like being on fire in this shot because the fins are slightly out of focus, that makes them less detailed.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I haven't seen many, but none seem to have the two colour tones of yours. They all seem just a solid orange - which doesn't look as pretty as the two tone of yours.

Cheers
TW

I hear you Robin,

When I got this fish his fins were all orange as well. Now, I have no idea why they turned orange-yellow when they grew. It may be normal, it may have something to do with his diet, or maybe the lack of females is responsible.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That's interesting that it changed. Maybe all orange is for the younger males & as they mature they get the extra colour???

Cheers
TW

Yeah Robyn, that may be the case as well.

Here is again a shot of the fish from around August 1.

As you can see, all orange, no yellow on the outside

Attached Image:

All Orange

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok,

I don't have much time, I just thought that I share 2 pictures with you (and one in the 125G log).

I know you are all jealous of my Anubias flowers, so here is one more

With Air Bubble:

Attached Image:

Nana Flower

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And:

Who knows why Otos seem to like to hang out on or near the heater? Are they telling me it is too cold in my tank?

Here are 5 of my 6 Otos:

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Cold Otos

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ooo I think that bubble pic is better than mine. The flower also gives that stand alone kind of look. Nice. Try not to cheap out on the electric bills LF. Keep your darn otos warm enough...turn the heater on. Those are nice healthy(fat) looking otos.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Yeah Matty, I will try to keep them warm

I got really lucky (so far) with the Otos. I bought them when they were really young and just arrived at the LFS (maybe the day before). I risked a high mortality rate, but haven't lost one yet.

Thanks for the compliment on the Nana picture

News on the female Apistos: They seem to have settled into the QT by now as the larger female is beginning to chase the smaller one around more than before. Still not to the point of what the boss male did to the sub male.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Nice picture of your Otos. I think it is something they have picked up through the years of being in LFS's. Most places dont have the cover for them to hang out on in the storage tanks so the heater is pretty much it for them. They seem to do the same thing in my tank a lot too!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wings,

That is actually an interesting point. Although I have never researched it, I was under the impression that Otos are all wild caught. Somehow I thought they were hard to breed in captivity.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Everything that I have read at this point says that they are hard to breed outside the wild. I guess I ment to say more on the lines of after being kept in storage tanks for some time(whole salers to LFS) they have picked up on heaters being some of the only things to hang out on in the tank.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Well,

It is Friday, around 6:30 PM, and I am still at work and we just ordered dinner. This means we are going to be here for a while longer.

And - I will be back here tomorrow, so my weekly water change will have to be either late tomorrow or even on Sunday. I guess this eliminates any major change to this and the 125G tank for this weekend, there will be just not enough time .

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Weekly Tank Update - Week 13

The tank has received its water change one day later than usual as I was at work all day yesterday. As such I also could not do too much to the tank, the Anubias that I added two weeks ago are still only stuck in there.

All my tanks got some goodies this weekend (check them out please, as it seems I am the only one recently to add anything to my 20 and 29 log). This tank got a Rio 50 powerhead to perform the same task than it does in the 125G, namely shooting the CO2 after it leaves the diffuser throughout the tank. I have the filter running on a lower speed so I don't get too much current.

Here is the tank last weekend, for comparison:

Attached Image:

Week 12

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here it is this weekend, after the powerhead addition. You can see it on the right hand side. Also, it seems that the loss of Anubias based on rhizome melting has stopped, I could not find one lose leave floating in the tank.

Attached Image:

This Weekend

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The only downside right now is that some of the older Anubias, added quite a few weeks back, have some dark brown spots on the leaves and the edges. I think I remember that is some form of BBA, and I hope that the better diffusion of CO2 will take care of it. This stuff is actually mostly on my glass and wood.

Attached Image:

Anubias

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The Narrow Leaf Java Fern is starting to show significant growth and is becoming an accent point in the tank (actually 3). I am thinking of adding more babies from my 125G to it, on the wood group at the left of the tank.

Attached Image:

Fern

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now on to some fish pictures.

First in line is an Oto, one should not forget that I have 6 of them in there. I am very greatful that I haven't lost even one of these little buggers:

Attached Image:

Oto

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The Apisto Girls in the QT are doing fine, they have settled in there and the dominant female is clearly showing who is the boss of the two, although most of the time the other one doesn't seem to care about it.

Attached Image:

Don Female I

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Make sure to read the part of this weekly's update on the previous page

Robyn's bad experience makes me a little worried, but I think they look just lovely.

Here is another shot of the dominant female from a slight angle:

Attached Image:

Don Female II

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the sub female, although not all that much sub like the fake female Double-Orange was.

She is a little smaller than the other one but eating nicely. Her caudal fin has also grown back and she is in good shape:

Attached Image:

Sub Female

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Last but not least,

The Boss

- I wonder when the females will be big enough to join him in the big tank? I guess I can add them in a week or two and hope that he doesn't torture them too much.

That's it,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Boss

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I've very jealous of the nice round bellies on the apisto females.

I must have missed something with the powerhead. Why do you feel you need a powerhead on a 3ft tank that has very good filtration even with the flow turned down. You actually have more gph on this tank then I have on my 72g, plus I'm running a UV on my return side. You also don't have alot of tall vertical growth to block flow

My Scapes

Maybe to diffuse the little CO2 bubbles around a bit more?

And DANG those ladies look hot. Whoever picked them out sure know what they are doing

*pats self on back*



In reality, it's all about who's taking care of them. They must be happy with their new home.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Maybe to diffuse the little CO2 bubbles around a bit more?

Well on a 3ft tank with an overpowered filter I really would be shocked if a powerhead is necessary. I really don't think it takes much current to push tiny co2 bubbles around.

My Scapes

Everything, including your lovely ladies, looks beautiful

Cheers

Cheers
TW

Thanks for the compliment on the females, Matty - it sure seems like you picked a good team there

Powerhead and CO2 - yup, that is my setup in the 125 and the 40. In both cases, too much CO2 would bypass the spraybar from the diffuser and end up at the surface right away. By placing a small powerhead in the upstream of the diffuser I achieve two things:

- I redirect of the bubbles throughout the tank by blasting them sideways
- An additional hacking of larger bubbles into smaller bubbles. The very small ones that come out of the diffuser bypass the powerhead anyway as they rise so slowly that the tank current gets hold of them before they reach the powerhead.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Weekly Tank Update - Week 14

As already stated in my 125G Log, I had a hard and tiring week at work and will only write a quick update to my logs for now. Actually, I was so tired that I attended this tank today rather than the usual Saturday-Do-Them-All routine.

In short, fishies are doing well, even the two girls in the QT. There, the boss female is beginning to give the other one a hard time and chases her around a lot. But she also shows some sign of yellowing, even without a male around.

Given that I cannot wait too much longer to put them in this tank, I took some action today to make it a little better.

First, the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Last Week

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well, I dumped about half the Swords, not really my cup of tea these plants. With regards to runners, they were up to 8 inches long already. In short, I ripped out the right group of wood (removed one for good) and replanted that side and kept the middle open. Still, more work has to be done in the future, but the base structure will stay like this.

And here is the final product (for now):

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That looks soo much better (even though it was still nice before). Just opening up the middle is a big improvement.

Cheers
TW

LF,

Nice work. The open middle has created some depth that the tank was lacking before.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Very nice, LF. i like this much better. Different leaf shapes interacting, some space to create depth. Very nice. It also seems like the NL ferns have grown in quite a bit more.

---

Back in the saddle!

I agree, how's the other side look?

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I agree, how's the other side look?

Let's give the kid a break. He's only had time to scape one viewing side. Looks good though

My Scapes