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Nice picture of your Otos. I think it is something they have picked up through the years of being in LFS's. Most places dont have the cover for them to hang out on in the storage tanks so the heater is pretty much it for them. They seem to do the same thing in my tank a lot too!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wings,

That is actually an interesting point. Although I have never researched it, I was under the impression that Otos are all wild caught. Somehow I thought they were hard to breed in captivity.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Everything that I have read at this point says that they are hard to breed outside the wild. I guess I ment to say more on the lines of after being kept in storage tanks for some time(whole salers to LFS) they have picked up on heaters being some of the only things to hang out on in the tank.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Well,

It is Friday, around 6:30 PM, and I am still at work and we just ordered dinner. This means we are going to be here for a while longer.

And - I will be back here tomorrow, so my weekly water change will have to be either late tomorrow or even on Sunday. I guess this eliminates any major change to this and the 125G tank for this weekend, there will be just not enough time .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Weekly Tank Update - Week 13

The tank has received its water change one day later than usual as I was at work all day yesterday. As such I also could not do too much to the tank, the Anubias that I added two weeks ago are still only stuck in there.

All my tanks got some goodies this weekend (check them out please, as it seems I am the only one recently to add anything to my 20 and 29 log). This tank got a Rio 50 powerhead to perform the same task than it does in the 125G, namely shooting the CO2 after it leaves the diffuser throughout the tank. I have the filter running on a lower speed so I don't get too much current.

Here is the tank last weekend, for comparison:

Attached Image:

Week 12

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here it is this weekend, after the powerhead addition. You can see it on the right hand side. Also, it seems that the loss of Anubias based on rhizome melting has stopped, I could not find one lose leave floating in the tank.

Attached Image:

This Weekend

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The only downside right now is that some of the older Anubias, added quite a few weeks back, have some dark brown spots on the leaves and the edges. I think I remember that is some form of BBA, and I hope that the better diffusion of CO2 will take care of it. This stuff is actually mostly on my glass and wood.

Attached Image:

Anubias

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The Narrow Leaf Java Fern is starting to show significant growth and is becoming an accent point in the tank (actually 3). I am thinking of adding more babies from my 125G to it, on the wood group at the left of the tank.

Attached Image:

Fern

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now on to some fish pictures.

First in line is an Oto, one should not forget that I have 6 of them in there. I am very greatful that I haven't lost even one of these little buggers:

Attached Image:

Oto

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The Apisto Girls in the QT are doing fine, they have settled in there and the dominant female is clearly showing who is the boss of the two, although most of the time the other one doesn't seem to care about it.

Attached Image:

Don Female I

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Make sure to read the part of this weekly's update on the previous page

Robyn's bad experience makes me a little worried, but I think they look just lovely.

Here is another shot of the dominant female from a slight angle:

Attached Image:

Don Female II

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And here is the sub female, although not all that much sub like the fake female Double-Orange was.

She is a little smaller than the other one but eating nicely. Her caudal fin has also grown back and she is in good shape:

Attached Image:

Sub Female

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Last but not least,

The Boss

- I wonder when the females will be big enough to join him in the big tank? I guess I can add them in a week or two and hope that he doesn't torture them too much.

That's it,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Boss

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I've very jealous of the nice round bellies on the apisto females.

I must have missed something with the powerhead. Why do you feel you need a powerhead on a 3ft tank that has very good filtration even with the flow turned down. You actually have more gph on this tank then I have on my 72g, plus I'm running a UV on my return side. You also don't have alot of tall vertical growth to block flow

My Scapes

Maybe to diffuse the little CO2 bubbles around a bit more?

And DANG those ladies look hot. Whoever picked them out sure know what they are doing

*pats self on back*



In reality, it's all about who's taking care of them. They must be happy with their new home.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Maybe to diffuse the little CO2 bubbles around a bit more?

Well on a 3ft tank with an overpowered filter I really would be shocked if a powerhead is necessary. I really don't think it takes much current to push tiny co2 bubbles around.

My Scapes

Everything, including your lovely ladies, looks beautiful

Cheers

Cheers
TW

Thanks for the compliment on the females, Matty - it sure seems like you picked a good team there

Powerhead and CO2 - yup, that is my setup in the 125 and the 40. In both cases, too much CO2 would bypass the spraybar from the diffuser and end up at the surface right away. By placing a small powerhead in the upstream of the diffuser I achieve two things:

- I redirect of the bubbles throughout the tank by blasting them sideways
- An additional hacking of larger bubbles into smaller bubbles. The very small ones that come out of the diffuser bypass the powerhead anyway as they rise so slowly that the tank current gets hold of them before they reach the powerhead.

Ingo

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Weekly Tank Update - Week 14

As already stated in my 125G Log, I had a hard and tiring week at work and will only write a quick update to my logs for now. Actually, I was so tired that I attended this tank today rather than the usual Saturday-Do-Them-All routine.

In short, fishies are doing well, even the two girls in the QT. There, the boss female is beginning to give the other one a hard time and chases her around a lot. But she also shows some sign of yellowing, even without a male around.

Given that I cannot wait too much longer to put them in this tank, I took some action today to make it a little better.

First, the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Last Week

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Well, I dumped about half the Swords, not really my cup of tea these plants. With regards to runners, they were up to 8 inches long already. In short, I ripped out the right group of wood (removed one for good) and replanted that side and kept the middle open. Still, more work has to be done in the future, but the base structure will stay like this.

And here is the final product (for now):

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

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That looks soo much better (even though it was still nice before). Just opening up the middle is a big improvement.

Cheers
TW

LF,

Nice work. The open middle has created some depth that the tank was lacking before.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Very nice, LF. i like this much better. Different leaf shapes interacting, some space to create depth. Very nice. It also seems like the NL ferns have grown in quite a bit more.

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Back in the saddle!

I agree, how's the other side look?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I agree, how's the other side look?

Let's give the kid a break. He's only had time to scape one viewing side. Looks good though

My Scapes

Let's give the kid a break. He's only had time to scape one viewing side

Sheesh, my bad. Just wondering if he did the whole tank, or just one side. Just curious. LF, you don't have to post a pic or anything. I'm always thinking how this tank is a 360 viewable tank, so I always wonder how it looks from different angles.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hello Little Fish

the tank looks great. Am as ever jealous.

at the moment I have hair algae and brush algae I think its called. so its lights off and a new start.

I wish I could say something apart from "it looks nice" ! I just don't visit Fish profiles enough to keep up with the discussions.

nice to see it all though

GFGxx

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

GFG,

So glad to see that you are peeking in once in a while , and don't worry, if you look at my 125G log then you will see that you are not the only one with algae worries. Actually, just look at the picture below to see some in this tank.

And the rest of you - yeah, give me a break

Actually, I had long enough of a break, back to talking about the tank. I am going to do some more minor changes this weekend and then I will show pictures from the other sides as well.

In the meantime, the bolbitis is not doing too well, maybe because it takes such a long time to sellte or something like that. Here is a shot of the tips of it, not too pleasant:

Attached Image:

Bolbitis Woes

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Also this weekend, I am planning on adding the females. I think they have been in the QT long enough now, over 3 weeks.

Here is the "smaller" one:

Attached Image:

Apisto

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And here is the larger one. She is almost indistinguishable from the other one, except for the black markings on her belly:

Attached Image:

Other Apisto

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Both are at best half the size of the male, btw. Do you think it is too early to add them?

Here they are together, this is how they usually interact. The boss chases the other one when they come too close to each other.

Attached Image:

Both Apistos

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That's some fine staghorn algae you got there LF. Turn up that CO2!

p.s. any Amanos in this tank?

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks NowherMan6

I don't know if the staghorn, and the onset of BBA on the same area, had anything to do with my CO2 being too low. Albeit I never measured anything in this tank ever, I would assume that my bubble disperser system is creating a high CO2 output in the tank. I will try sometime to capture the bubbles that are floating throughout the tank, in particular in the bolbitis area which sits right in the powerhead stream.

Oh, almost forgot, no - there are no Amanos in this tank. I am not certain how they would do with the Apistos, and also if they would eat potential Apisto eggs.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a shot of the tips of it, not too pleasant

It's that damn Jersey Water .

Welcome back LF

My Scapes

hi little fish -

the females are absolutely ready for the male - they're not going to get any bigger. mine weigh in at a hefty 3-4 cm's or so, while the males can be up to 9cms... but we all know who wears the pants in apisto world.

justin

Tetratech - you know what? I begin to believe your water story. I mean, one can really call this tank fish understocked, with 6 smaller Otos and one Apisto. I feed ferts all the time, have high CO2, what else could it be?

Justin - thanks for the thumbs up on the Apisto females. I will go ahead then this weekend and add them to the tank. That is going to be very interesting.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Tetratech - you know what? I begin to believe your water story. I mean, one can really call this tank fish understocked, with 6 smaller Otos and one Apisto. I feed ferts all the time, have high CO2, what else could it be?

.

Seems to me you did everything right. Good filter, eco-complete for extra biofiltration. low fish load. Two questions one more plausble than the other.

1. I know your probably sick of people asking this, but are you sure your co2 is way up?
2. I doubt this, but is anyone overfeeding the fishes while your away?

The only thing you did that I would have not done is when you pulled out all those weeds you did it in one shot. But I really doubt if your current algae problems are the result of that.



My Scapes

Something that would put an end to the water theory. I bought mine from this guy. Pretty good quality, very good price...can't beat it for the money. Of course I realize how silly this would be for %50 water changes on the 125, but maybe work up to 50/50 RO/tap for the 40 and see how it goes. Or start up a small tank...say 10G high light and CO2 with all reconstituted RO water and see what happens.

I'm with tetratech though. I don't think it's in the tap water. It's always possible there's trace amounts of ammonia in the tap causing algae. Something that would fly under the radar. An RO unit would remove that. But, I dunno. I've been stumped on your tanks for quite some time.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi LF

I think you are fine to add the females. Mine were always less than half the size of the males, but could always hold their own.

Cheers
TW

I was thinking about your algae problem,

My 12 G hex has two annubus (no I still haven't learnt how to spell that word!!!) and they have black algae stuff too, but only on their older leaves the new bits look very good.

any how I am going to add hornwort - not permently just a s afloating bunch to see if it soaks up the extra nutrients and kills off the algae.

I don't do half the things you guys do so this might be a really lame idea but I am going to try since its a)cheap and b) simple.

Another thing a read about was breaking up the lighting period, four hours on two off fours on. I will hunt up the link.

I still think the tank looks fab tho. Next weekend is the big change over for me. ugh.

Good Luck
GFG



_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

To comment on your questions and suggestions in order of entry:

Tetratech - no, I am not 100% sure that my CO2 is up there as I have never measured anything. But, given the 2 to 3 bubbles per second that are nicely dispersed throughout the tank, I would guesstimate to have at least 30ppm in the evening hours. And nobody has ever yet fed the fish but myself, and I only feed a very few flakes (broken up) and an occasional treat to one fish in the tank, the Apisto. I believe though that the micro sword screated quite some hard to remove layer of gunk when it was initially settling in.

Matty - nothing to say about the fishies I gor from you? You can be proud of having picked such lovely girls for me . About the RO unit: there would be a little problem as I would have to up the ph in the water quite a bit as my natural ph is only about 7. I think I would not find the time to do this kind of special treatment for a tank. This is also part of the reason why none of my tanks houses any high ph loving fishies, I fail at maintaing a stable environment even when I don't have to mess with the ph.

Robyn - thanks for the thumbs up on the Apistos, I can't wait to add them. I think I will do it in the morning as then the ph should be similar to the QT where there is no CO2 injection.

GFG - say after me A-Nu-Bi-As Anubias . Yeah, these plants are the first to show major BBA signs in my tanks as well, that's because they are such slow growers. Albeit I know that Hornwort is supposed to help, it is just plain toooooo ugly for me to be an option .

Thanks to all of you,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
I would truly try to get as best an estimate on your co2, before assuming anything. 2 to 3 bps per second doesn't sound bad but it might not be as high as you think. This is where the lifestyle comes in. I would slightly raise it and watch the fish during the day. When they show signs of stress late in the day bac off a bit and you've probably reached the optimum level.

You know about the degassing procedure to test co2 content. Many believe it is more acurate than the ph/kh chart. All you do is take a sample of your water preferrably in the afternoon and let it sit for 24hrs. There are forumlas out there, but if you ph raises by a full point (i.e. 6.5 to 7.5) then you should have about 30ppm. Unfortunately you still have to use a ph test, but you'll be able to compare colors as opposed to interperting one color.

My Scapes

Hm,

Sounds good, but my current work schedule is too crazy to allow me to live on the edge. What if I am a tad too high and cannot make it home in time at night. The prize I have to pay is too high, I really like my fishies

Degassing, sounds nice too, but my natural tab ph is only 7. So, wouldn't that mean that my ph would have to be 6 in the tank? And that with a KH that is raised by Baking Soda to about 3 to 4? That would be way too high of a CO2, I believe.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matty - nothing to say about the fishies I gor from you? You can be proud of having picked such lovely girls for me

I thought I had bragged enough about them. They are inded lovely. I agree that it's about time to put them in there with the male. I'd do it when you have some time to watch them though. Being there's two of them, the male will have a harder time bossing just one of them around.

About the RO water, I usnderstand why you wouldn't want to do it, but your water being pH 7 shouldn't be one of them. Pure RO water will have a pH right around that. You won't have to mess with it more than your tap water. I'd just reconstitute it with some baking soda or whatever you are already using to bring up the KH.

Also about the degassing. If the pH moves by 1 full point, that means the CO2 levels have moved by a factor of 10. Say from 2.3 to 23. Which is great if the stable atmospheric CO2 levels in your tank are about 3. It's not really an exact measure of how much CO2 you have in your tank, just that you've increased the CO2 by 10X.

That would be way too high of a CO2, I believe.

Well see that's the thing. You don't really know. Generally it's around 30. It can be as high as 50 or as low as 20. It would probably be a great test for me, because my target is 6.7 from 7.8pH KH is 5. That's a little more than 1 full point, but who can tell the difference between 6.7 and 6.8.? On the other hand, what if your pH is 7.7 and your KH is 3. Moving the pH to 6.7 gives you a bit less than 20ppm.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Degassing, sounds nice too, but my natural tab ph is only 7. So, wouldn't that mean that my ph would have to be 6 in the tank? And that with a KH that is raised by Baking Soda to about 3 to 4? That would be way too high of a CO2, I believe.

B.I.N.G.O. I thing you just won an algae free tank. Degas the sample and see what the PH is. If it's 7 like your tap then you should lower your ph to 6. This should give you approximately 30ppm. Forget the equilibrium BS or if you want to be on the safe side put less in, maybe keep your kh at 2. Mine is 2 naturally and I never had a problem. My ph is off the test kit. Remember you need to do this slowly. If you could trust your regulator, do it gradually over a few days, maybe when you have a day off. I trully think your co2 is too low. Your ferting (EI - estimate), you got light, low stock, good biofilter. Do it on the weekend or a day when your around. You need to push the limits of the co2 and then back it down a notch. That's your space. Fish adjust over time. Remember I told you when I acclimate fish in the evening if I don't do it really slow they go up and gasp, but the existing fish are fine. It's like anything else fish can adjust slowly. People keep cardinals at 5.5 and other at 7.5.





My Scapes

Thanks guys, I will try to see what I can do, but I will wait a little as I first will get my fishies (tomorrow) used to the tank as it is.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 15

This week hasn't seen much action tankwise, besides the ferts nothing happened all week until this weekends water change. As is known, I begin to have a few minor algae issues at the end of the bolbitis leaves, but I am not sure if I should worry about it yet.

This weekend I did some switching of a few plants between the 125G and this tank, some Blyxa and Pearl Grass came to this tank while some micro sword went the other way. No major overhaul was needed to perform the rather minor changes.

Here are a few shots of the tank, specially for Matty who seems to just love the idea of looking at my tank from all kinds of angles

First, the classic Ingo full frontal shot:

Attached Image:

Full Tank - Main View

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

With regards to CO2, the bubbles that you can see are CO2 bubbles being pushed through the tank. I think this is enough, don't you?

Here is a closer look at the main View right hand side, with the pearl grass instead of the swords. Also visible are a few anubias leaves with signs of black spot algae.

Attached Image:

Right Front

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now here is the tank from the back, clearly you can see how the CO2 bubbles are pushed out by the powerhead. I don't think that there is much more that could do to increase the dispersal even more.

Attached Image:

Full Tank - Back View

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In the back view is also a new row of Blyxa that I brought over from the 125. If you look at the right side of the following picture you will see my red wendtii plants. They are in the tank for a few weeks now and, albeit still small, didn't melt too much at all.

Attached Image:

Back Blyxa

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Next is an angled shot from the back, showing how little plant mass has been left in the middle of the tank. Only some anubias, blyxas, and a driftwood branch separate front to back.

Attached Image:

Back Angled

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Here is now a Matty special

Showing the open short side (the other short side has the equipment for the tank coming in, alas not really all open) with the back side:

Attached Image:

Back and Open Short

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Here is the same short side, this time looking into the front of the tank as well. I am most certain that I am not done with changes to the plants, but I will take my time to replace parts of the tanks as time goes on.

Attached Image:

Front and Open Side

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Here is a look into the main view of the tank, slightly angled from above to show the open space in the middle of the tank.

From this distance the Bolbitis looks actually pretty good, compared to the closeup shot from yesterday.

Attached Image:

Full Main Angled

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The last full shot of the tank is from the side that holds the equipment and includes the light as well to give a better idea of how this tank looks when someone would be in the room and look at it live.

Attached Image:

With Equipment

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Last but not least, here is the boss eagerly awaiting the arrival of his girls tomorrow. You can play "I Spy" with the previous pictures as he is in almost all of the ones from this series.

I sure find him to be a very handsome fellow

Attached Image:

Male Apisto

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Nice lookin' apisto there LF. Or should I say that's one nice LF, LF. Thanks for all the different angles. I really enjoy 360(ish) tanks. I'd love a room divider like that one day. My SW tank is visible on the front panel and the two sides, and I just find myself looking through the sides as much as the front. I dunno what it is, but I have a hard time accepting flat images when I know it looks different from other angles.

The only real comment I have for this tank is the view from the "back" as you have labeled it. I think if the blyxa were not in a row, but outlined the path through the middle a bit more it would look a little better. Unless you are going to just fill that section in. That would be attractive as well. Otherwise I like the little changes in this tank.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I really like this tank. You can now see all the different shapes & textures of the plants where before, the floor covering all looked a bit too much the same. The wood shows up really well now too. I think I like the less crowded look, where each plant grouping has it's own definition.

Cheers
TW

Thanks to both of you for the comments, as always they are very much appreciated

Matty - I am with you on the Blyxa being lined up there, but I will have to wait until intuition strikes and tells me where else, or how else, I could use this plant. As I said, the tank is not done yet and small changes will happen in the near future.

Robyn - And yes, I agree, having the ground cover broken up makes it look better, I see this now. The danger I have to maintain right now is not to fall into the trap of making each distinct plant section a new species. I have to keep in mind that less is more when it comes to plant varieties in the tank.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well,

Operation Fish Transport is on its way. About an hour and twenty minutes ago I started the acclimation process of the two girl Apistos and almost the whole time the male was right there.

Pardon the crappy picture quality but I had to use the flash to see him flash (got it? I know, not all that brilliant,).

Here is an upfront shot before they will be released:

Attached Image:

Coming Together

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Ok,

Here are a few more shots after I turned on the light in the tank.

Here is the male at the bag, I am sorry I couldn't get a good shot of him flashing the bag:

Attached Image:

Apistos I

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And here are the girls in the bag by themselves, just about a minute before being added to the tank after almost 2 hours in the acclimatization process:

Attached Image:

Apistos II

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And here is the male at the same time, patrolling the tank to make sure that there is not all of a sudden a rival that could spoil his price in the bag.

Attached Image:

Apistos III

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And as soon as they were released the male started to display to them, and nothing of that has changed in the last 40 min. Both seem more or less drawn to him, and he is drawn to both of them. He managed to show off the caves in the two hills of the tank, and each time a female followed him inside, followed by fin flapping of the male in the caves.

Here he is showing off to one of them, with an Oto onlooking the scene , but I don't think he cares at all.

Is it just me or did the female already turn a little yellow? Interestingly, the female that is almost all the time on his side is rather pale and almost doesn't move when he is near by.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Apistos IV

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi,
Perhaps she is playing "hard to get?"

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks Frank,

I guess she is still scared of the fact that he is about 3 times her size

Anyway, here are a few more pictures from today. First off one of the two females:

Attached Image:

Female Apisto

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And here is the other one. I have to say sorry for the bad quality of the shots, and the algae on the glass, but that is as good as it gets for now.

Attached Image:

Other Female

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Here are now 3 more "Show-Off" pictures. In this first one the female is behind him and can be seen over his sholder. I like having females in the tank even if it is simply for the fact that I get to see his finnage more often.

Attached Image:

Showing Off I

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In this shot he is between the two females, a spot where I found him a few times during the day. When he is around none of the female chases after the other, but when he is gone the one less (just a tad less) drawn to him chases after the other one, but not too wild.

Attached Image:

Showing Off II

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And I personally find this one the best Show-Off shot I could get so far. With the female behind him he is blowing himself up so much that even his gills stick out all the way. He sure likes his new companions

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Showing Off III

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Glad the introductions went so well. That is certainly a male showing off to his best ability. Looks like his head will expode, he is so puffed full of pride.

Cheers
TW

Hopefully we will hear the sounds of little fishie fins swimming in the water!

Glad the intro of the girls went well.

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Looks like his head will expode

Sure does, doesn't it?

Yeah, I cannot wait for little fishies to swim through the tank, although I resist in getting my hopes up that this would ever be the case. I have never used baby fish food in my live and I have no idea how to get it close to any potential fry.

Thanks for the input,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yup, call me the matchmaker. I sure know how to pick out healthy, HOT(insert more appropriate word) female apistos. You can tell he's impressed, what a lucky fish. *wolf howl, whistles, oogley eyes*

(was that enough bragging this time LF, or should I keep going?)

I'm very glad it went well. They seem to have formed quite the love triangle. I bet he can't wait for the film cannisters.

EDIT: hehe I got sensored describing the hot looks of the lady apistos.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

EDIT: hehe I got sensored describing the hot looks of the lady apistos

Way too funny!

LF,
Your little fish look really nice. We just got some double reds in at work but they are nothing compared to your Orange Flashes! Super fish! Nice job Matty!

Over and out...

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

was that enough bragging this time LF, or should I keep going?

Keep on going

Thanks for the input, even the censored one that I will never see.

Wings - You should see his color in person, it is even better

I really hope they will be fine in there,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

ingo, they look fantastic - the male is VERY impressive, and i'm sure there will be breeding very shortly. i don't think you should stress about feeding the babies - i would stuff as much java moss as i could into places where you can't see it, close to the ground, (or where you can see it, but i doubt that fits with your visual plan right now)and let nature take her course. the java moss will build a 'culture' of micro-life that hopefully the babies can survive on. it might take a few batches, but when there's enough food, the babies survive. i've only ever fed my mothers their usual blood worms and brine shrimp, which the babies MIGHT have been able to get a tiny scrap of. so it depends - if you want to raise a whole batch (which you might not be able to do with new mothers, anyways - they may well go through a few broods themselves before they get the hang of things) you might wanna feed the fry. if not, you can still have a (perhaps more natural)breeding colony of apistos. it makes fascinating viewing!

best of luck, they all look gorgeous,

justin

Justin,

Thanks for the input and the compliment on the male

The one problem I could see with moss in the tank is that it would be virtually impossible to get rid of it again and that it would start to spread. Otherwise that seems like a great idea.

And I am on board with the idea of letting things go "more" natural, meaning having to have the fry grow up on their own. I don't know if you follow my 125G log, but I had great success with doing just that with my Espei.

Oh - btw, not much additional yellowing on the females has happened so far. Do they get bright yellow like my viejita II do?

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yeah, those will get very yellow as well. Almost all female apistos will, especially when they are in the mood or trying to guard fry. I think there's probably plenty of stuffs to be found amongst the other plants, but I agree the java moss is probably the best thing I can think of.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks Matty for the heads up on the yellowing of the females, I am looking forward to their color change then

I doub't that I will add moss to the tank though, in the long run it may become too messy. I have these two natural caves in the two hill sections and I would have to shove the moss in there. As such they would not be easily controllable, I think.

Ingo

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Now here is a little update for the algae lovers amongst us. Here is a shot of the top of the most affected Bolbitis tip as it is right under the light, just below water surface.

As you may see, we have Staghorn and Brush united on this leaf. What you cannot see is that below the area displayed here, the leaf is clearly collection BGA (yes, blue green) on it. Nice, not much missing in there

How the hell can I have all these algaes at once?

Ingo

Attached Image:

Darn Algae

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That looks like something from the nightmare I had last night...

><>

What is your CO2 at? Might be a good idea to bump it up a bit more. I know that tetra and I really push it on our fish.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

That looks like something from the nightmare I had last night

- good comment, pretty much sums up my feelings about it as well, superlion

Wings - and all the others on the same wave length - I guess I will have to get the measuring tools out then. I will let you know what I find out.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I am really intrested to see where you are at with the CO2. I keep my over 30ppm almost all the time.

I am really sorry to see that stuff in your tank. It is really not that pretty.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Quick Update on the Bolbitis and its algae.

The first action of tonight was a complete trim of all infected bolbitis leaves, which are pretty much all the plant had when I got it (coincidence, I don't think so).

Here is the full tank afterwards (in an angle, right Matty?)

Attached Image:

Full Tank

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See Last Page For Full Tank Shot After Tonights Trimming

Here is a close-up of the new trimmed area. As you can see, some new growth is still there, actually that one does not look infested at all.

Also, you may notice the first visible Crypt Wndtii leaves in the background:

Attached Image:

Closer Look

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Home early today?

My Scapes

Then I did some water testing for N, ph, and KH

NO3 = above 40ppm
ph = less than 6.6, but more than 6.4 - so let's assume 6.6
KH = 5DH

So, this is after only 7.5h of lights on, way not the end of the light cycle.

And it means -->>> at least a CO2 of 38ppm, and that is on the safe side of measuring.

Any thoughts?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I never really had a problem with BBA. I got it when I didn't take care of the tank, and when I trimmed it all out, it never came back after I started paying attention to it again. I'd just make sure all the nutrients were there and it wouldn't grow anymore. What I didn't get would stay there, kinda in limbo I guess.

EDIT: I always forget something I mean to say. It was, yep, I like the angle shots. It shows the depth off well. Especially in a tank with wood blocking a lot of the smaller plants from view.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

And it means -->>> at least a CO2 of 38ppm, and that is on the safe side of measuring.

LF,
Take a sample of your water and aerate it for an hour or so and then test it. This should bring your co2 in line with the atmosphere. You can't go by your tap because it could come out with high co2. The true PH of your tank without co2 injection is what it would be in your tank after it's exposed to the air for awhile. Whatever the PH is after you aerate (or let stand for 24hrs) you should use your co2 to target one full point lower.



My Scapes

This is the PH reading from my 72g (yellow) and from my nano (dark green) The nano reading basically represents a degassed sample from the 72g. You could see the difference in the readings. Hard to tell exactly what the difference is but I think the 72g sample is off the chart and the nano sample is quite dark. But you really can't tell exactly what the ph is. This is why you must test the limits of your co2 and then stop when the fish show signs of distress. This would probably be the most beneficial level of co2 for your tank. Why not slowly up it everyday until you see a problem? Of course you have to be able to live the lifestyle

Attached Image:


My Scapes

Thanks Tetratech,

I don't have too much time, gotta go and read the kids a bedtime story.

Anyway, quick update on the tank, two fold:

1) I just took a tab water sample to let it degas for 24h. The current tab reading has a ph of 7.2

2) Strange things are happening in the tank. When I came home I could not find either or female. A few minutes later I saw one emerge on the left tank side. As soon as the male saw her he chased her away aggressively. Another few minutes later I saw the other female emerge from a small gap in the right hill. Here, the male was displaying to her, and she did the same to him, turning her body 90 degrees sideways when close to him. Soon after she went back into that gap. During the next maybe 25 min the chasing of one and the display with the other repeated itself about 3 times each. He doesn't let the other female to the right side of the tank at all.

I guess we got something going here, albeit I have to say that the selected female is not bright yellow, more of a pale yellow (while the chased one is not yellow at all).

Now its story time,

Ingo

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1) I just took a tab water sample to let it degas for 24h. The current tab reading has a ph of 7.2

That makes perfect sense. Since there is co2 coming right out of the tap it would makes sense that degassed your ph is 7.2. So you should be shooting for a ph of around 6.2, which is lower than you current ph which is telling me your co2 is too low.

Hope the kiddies enjoyed their story. Does it the story have a little fish in it?/:'

My Scapes

Does it the story have a little fish in it?

Yeah, the one who reads it is LITTLE_FISH

But no tetratech - I think you misunderstood. Or maybe I don't get it. I just took the sample from the tab last night, it was not degassed yet. I will have to measure the sample again tonight to find out what the degassed value is.

Also, this sample does not contain any baking soda that I add to my tank to raise the KH. When you say it should be in the end around 6.2 in the tank, how can this be completely independent of the KH as I would have a much higher CO2 at 5DH than at 2DH?

Ingo

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But no tetratech - I think you misunderstood. Or maybe I don't get it. I just took the sample from the tab last night, it was not degassed yet. I will have to measure the sample again tonight to find out what the degassed value is.

I guess we misunderstood each other Take a waster sample from the tank and let it degass for 24hrs or aerate it for a few hours. Now you will have the PH of your tank without the co2. Whatever it is, try for a 1 pt drop by adjusting your co2 rate.


My Scapes

try for a 1 pt drop by adjusting your co2 rate

Call me a silly old man, or anything, but I still don't get that part.

Isn't the KH the component in the water that defines how much CO2 can be bound to the water (sorry, probably not the right Chemical terms here)? Meaning - Having a sample degas that has a Kh of 2 should result in a higher ph after 24h than a sample with a KH of 5?

Ingo

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LF,

You KH is what fights to keep the PH from droping to fast. Thus the higher the KH the more CO2 you will have to pump in to drop the PH and just the oposit for a lower KH. In my case I have a very high KH of around 16 so it takes me more CO2 to get the PH down far enough to show enough CO2 in the water colum. Does that help? That is my best understandings of how it works. I am probably a bit off though.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

From here: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

Myth: A Low KH results in a larger pH swing when adding CO2.

Many people are under the mistaken impression that a low KH results in large pH swings when adding CO2, while raising the KH will result in smaller pH swings. This is not the case. The KH will move the start and end pH values, but the pH swing will be the same for a given level of CO2. You can see this in the chart below, or using the calculation:

Case 1: Assume a KH of 15 degrees, and a starting CO2 level of 4.5ppm, which would result in a pH of 8.0. If we then add CO2, to increase the CO2 level to 28ppm, that would drop the pH down to 7.2, for a pH shift of .8.

Case 2: Assume a KH of just 1.5 degrees, and a starting CO2 level of 4.5ppm, which would result in a pH of 7.0. If we then add CO2, to increase the CO2 level to 28ppm, that would drop the pH down to 6.2, for a pH shift of .8, the exact same as in case 1.

One possible explanation for this myth is that many copies of this pH chart skip some of the higher pH values, for example, jumping from pH 7.4 to a pH of 8.0. If the reader didn't pay careful attention, they might mis-interpret the size of the pH swing. I specifically made sure to include all pH values, between 6 and 8, in steps of .2.

This relationship will break down at extremely low KH levels (below 1 degree), when there isn't enough carbonate to completely buffer the acids present. In that case, the pH can drop quickly and dramatically. But if the KH is 1 degree or higher, then the size of the pH swing when injecting CO2 will be determined only by the amount of CO2 dissolved in the water.

Tetratech's got the right idea with this degassing thing, though telling someone to drop 1 point pH can be a tiny bit inaccurate like I pointed out earlier in some cases depending on starting pH and CO2. However, in most cases 1 full point of pH will be about 30 ppm of CO2. This goes for all values of KH except for those under 1KH. Other than at very small values(when it can't buffer), KH has no effect except moving the starting and ending values of pH.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

OK Matty,

So here is then what I should do:

- Take a water sample from the tank tonight, best would be just before lights out (that is also when the CO2 shuts off)
- Measure its ph
- Wait 24h
- Measure its ph

I can completely neglect the KH in the sample, right? Also, given that I had measured a ph of at max 6.6 and a KH of around 5, which by the chart should bring me to a CO2 level of around 38ppm, I should see after 24h a ph of at least 7.6. Right? And what is wrong if I see a lower ph value? Most likely the KH test kit? Maybe the ph test kit? Anything else?

Ingo

EDIT: Matty, did you read a few posts up news regarding the Apistos?

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

GEAARG!!

I just deleted my post on accident.

Errmm lesse if I can remember what I just posted. Yes you got it right about the Degassing method now. I think your other test was a bit skewed because you used tap, and you alter your tank water. That's not the right way to test. You gotta test the tank water twice, once before and once after 24 hrs. Or test the degassed waterafter 24 hrs and then take a sample from your tank at the same time to compare side by side.

In regards to the apistos, I think the females are still young. Not small, but really too young to breed successfully. The male is trying to court one of them and that's why he doesn't really want the other around. If I remember right the harem breeders will take turns with the females. Not all at once but one after the other. So I don't think it's anything to worry about it such a large tank, unless it's disrupting meals for the odd female out.

Oh yea and please go vote for my new plant profile; E. tenellus.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

LF,
Just test the damn water and drop it by about 1 pt ph by slowing adjusting your co2 output. make sure your watch your fish by living the lifestyle for one weekend

BTW - Aquarium Adventure just got in Agazzi double-red, orange hi-fin cacs (looked just like yours) and your viejia. I don't know if the viejia were 1,2 or 3, they are not that sophicated. There's a note on the tank that says consult cichlid book which you could find in the store's library. Yes all the aquarium has a library with a couch.

My Scapes

Thanks to both of you

I tested the sample water from the tank last night, just before lights out. I had a ph of 6.4. so we will see what the ph of that sample is tonight.

On the Apisto frontier: The "selected" female is clearly defending some area in the right hill. She comes out sparely and when she does she is all dark. The only time she shifts colors to a more pale yellow (within 1 to 2 seconds, btw) is when the male is really near by. Unfortunately, during feeding she ventured off and I saw the other female sneak into that cave twice . The third time around she was there and chased her away. Looks like breeding to me, albeit I have no idea if this is only a training session or the real deal.

Ingo

EDIT: Tetratech - yeah, I have seen their library, very nice touch. Did you feel the urge to buy more apistos?

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Quick Update:

Because of scheduling issues, I took made the second ph test 23h after the initial one. I don't think it will make much of a difference, right?

Anyway, I got a blue color that I would place between 7.2 and 7.6, there are no color steps on the chart between these two values.

Let us assume it is 7.4, ok? Means one above what it was last night. That means now 30ppm, right? Sounds good to me. When I measured my CO2 directly I came up with about 38ppm minimum. Sounds about the same.

Opinions?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

It wouldn't hurt to bump it up just a little bit. I think I am running mine at around 48 or a bit higher for my night time target. Fish seem to be fine.

For you I am guess a Ph of 6.4 or 6.5 would be fine.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Hi LF, that will be exciting if you have eggs already. If she's young, don't worry if the first bunch don't make it though.

Keep us posted on the plants & the romance in your tank.

Cheers
TW

Wings - my ph at night is 6.4, so I would be right on, right?

Robyn - Yeah, I am not getting my hopes on fry up as of yet, although the female is for sure defending something in that hill and barely comes out at all, usually only to chase the other female away or to grab a quick bit of food.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 16

This week has seen the major cutting back of the bolbitis. I am not convinced that the issues with it came from bad water parameters, although all signs of algae on it indicate so. Bolbitis is known to take quite a while to settle. I assume that the unsettled plant was not able to provide the leaves with whatever they need as the plant in itself used it all up to settle on the wood. Time will tell, so far the new growth looks still good.

Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Last Weekend

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And here is the tank now. As you may notice, I did a few more minor changes to the plants. I removed all micro swords from the front left and replaced them with the last Blyxa I had in the 125G (was always intended to end up in the 40G), and two stems of Wisteria.

Attached Image:

Now

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Here is a closer look at this group. Notice the Oto in the center of the picture on the substrate. If you have any idea how large Blyxa is then you can imagine how small the Oto still is. I have been very lucky with them so far, I would have never thought that I can manage to keep them all alive.

Attached Image:

Closer Look

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I wish I could show you a picture of the "breeding" female (or whatever she is doing in that hill), but she barely comes out. When she does she is almost all black, the warning or scared color of the Apistos that I have. And usually she is chasing the other female away at high speed.

The male now begins to switch between chasing that female and courting her. Here she is, showing some yellowing as well:

Attached Image:

Other Female

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Look at bottom of previous page to view small changes in the scape

One of the best things of having females in the tank is that the male really likes to spread his finnage. This makes him so much more handsome looking

Here he is:

Attached Image:

Male Cac

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Here he is, discovering that the "other" female is coming very close to the "nest" of the breeding female. He sneaks up on her very slowly. As you may see, when you compare her coloration in this shot to the one two above, the black markings on her side are gone. I am amazed how fast they can change their looks.

Attached Image:

Watch Out Where You Are Going

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On the other hand, here he is, but this time it is more courtship than chase. There, her black side area is visible again.

This is it for this weeks update,

Have Fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Hello There, Honey

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Ingo,
The tank looks much better with the removal of the microswords. I like the different texures of leaves, etc around the wood. I'm not sure about the blyxa center, yet. It might be too tall and take away from the wood focals.

Your male cac sure is flaming Not that there's anything wrong with that.

My Scapes

I'm not sure about the blyxa center, yet.

Good point tetratech, and thanks for the input.

I am glad that this tank allows me to perform small changes without having to mess with the rest of the tank (unlike the big tank). I can imagine that the one Blyxa right in the center might be the culprit for the fusing of the two groups (see picture), maybe I will move it in a while, when I know better how the rest of the tank will be structured. I come more and more to the conclusion that the micro sword was not a good choice for this tank.

About the Apisto: I am curious, did the one that they sell as a high fin in your LFS have an even longer dorsal fin?

Ingo

Attached Image:

Remove This One?

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6.4 ph with a Kh of 5 gives you 60ppm CO2. I think that is pretty good. How are your fish with it? I don't know if you would want to push it much more.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Your male cac sure is flaming

I think you mean metrosexual, he likes females, but likes to look pretty too.

Nice update on the cacs, LF. It looks like they are starting to settle in nicely. Soon they'll all have their own positions in the heirarchy and everything will go smoothly, hopefully even the breeding.

From what I can tell it looks like the bolbitus does have some nice new growth on it. Those are nice when they settle in and get healthy. I hope they make it for you.

Sounds like the CO2 is up where it should be. I guess that leaves the NJ tap water.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

How are your fish with it? I don't know if you would want to push it much more.

Yeah, I think I have enough evidence to show that I am at least at 30ppm, if not more. Fish so far are fine, but I would like to test the "not-so-settled-plant --- and-therefore-algae" theory a little longer. If all else fails then I could maybe try other things.

Matty - yes, the new bolbitis growth is looking good so far. I really hope that the plant will do better now, but one thing I will have to wait out a for a while is to see what happens to leaves once they reach the hight of the original ones. Thanks for the thumbs up on the Cacs ,

Ingo

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Last night, I studied the behavior of the Apistos some more. Now I am thinking that there may not be any actual breeding.

The second female made the left hill her home now. Whenever the male swims by she comes out and presents herself sideways to him, and as soon as he comes close she seem to try to lure him into the cave under the hill.

Sometimes, when he is over the right hill, the first female shows similar behavior, although she seems to be more eager to get back into the cave.

Now I assume that this is how female Cacs behave in general, finding their spot for a potential spawn and then trying to get a male to come.

Ingo

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I didn't really think they would already be breeding, but it seems like everybody is getting ready and settled in. I say give them some time. It's also very important they are fed well, with food almost always available. This is kind of opposite of what you want in a nice planted tank though. Situations like this always make me wish that protein skimmers worked on FW tanks. So maybe if they don't breed with regular feedings after a couple months then maybe kick it up a bit if you don't mind the possibility of extra algae from the increased feedings. Maybe even go to the live baby brine shrimp. That usually gets fish pretty perky.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I think it was Ben that was talking about some people using skimmers on their FW planted tanks. I would have to do some digging around to find out what exacly it was about but I think it had to do with the scum layer you sometimes get on the tank. Right now I don't really have to time or energy to look it up but I thought I would throw it out there.



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

That's a surface skimmer. It pulls water off the top instead of taking water from the middle of the column. Yep, it's used to get rid of that surface scum. A protein skimmer is a totally different story and operates on increased surface tension of salt water. It makes lots of little bubbles and proteins rideon those bubbles into a collection cup. The proteins will contain nitrogenous wastes and Phosphates and things not yet broken down into ammonia and other simple wastes.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

That's a surface skimmer ... A protein skimmer ...

That is why it is good to have a dark side person here in the forum

On the tank side, there is nothing new to report. The right hill female barely comes out of her cave while the left hill female is obviously trying to get the male to come into the cave with her, which he doesn't. She switched colors really quickly from a drab gray to a medium yellow (not as bright as my viejita female is all the time) when the male is near by.

Ingo

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