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That looks soo much better (even though it was still nice before). Just opening up the middle is a big improvement.

Cheers
TW

LF,

Nice work. The open middle has created some depth that the tank was lacking before.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Very nice, LF. i like this much better. Different leaf shapes interacting, some space to create depth. Very nice. It also seems like the NL ferns have grown in quite a bit more.

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Back in the saddle!

I agree, how's the other side look?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I agree, how's the other side look?

Let's give the kid a break. He's only had time to scape one viewing side. Looks good though

My Scapes

Let's give the kid a break. He's only had time to scape one viewing side

Sheesh, my bad. Just wondering if he did the whole tank, or just one side. Just curious. LF, you don't have to post a pic or anything. I'm always thinking how this tank is a 360 viewable tank, so I always wonder how it looks from different angles.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hello Little Fish

the tank looks great. Am as ever jealous.

at the moment I have hair algae and brush algae I think its called. so its lights off and a new start.

I wish I could say something apart from "it looks nice" ! I just don't visit Fish profiles enough to keep up with the discussions.

nice to see it all though

GFGxx

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

GFG,

So glad to see that you are peeking in once in a while , and don't worry, if you look at my 125G log then you will see that you are not the only one with algae worries. Actually, just look at the picture below to see some in this tank.

And the rest of you - yeah, give me a break

Actually, I had long enough of a break, back to talking about the tank. I am going to do some more minor changes this weekend and then I will show pictures from the other sides as well.

In the meantime, the bolbitis is not doing too well, maybe because it takes such a long time to sellte or something like that. Here is a shot of the tips of it, not too pleasant:

Attached Image:

Bolbitis Woes

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Also this weekend, I am planning on adding the females. I think they have been in the QT long enough now, over 3 weeks.

Here is the "smaller" one:

Attached Image:

Apisto

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the larger one. She is almost indistinguishable from the other one, except for the black markings on her belly:

Attached Image:

Other Apisto

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Both are at best half the size of the male, btw. Do you think it is too early to add them?

Here they are together, this is how they usually interact. The boss chases the other one when they come too close to each other.

Attached Image:

Both Apistos

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That's some fine staghorn algae you got there LF. Turn up that CO2!

p.s. any Amanos in this tank?

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks NowherMan6

I don't know if the staghorn, and the onset of BBA on the same area, had anything to do with my CO2 being too low. Albeit I never measured anything in this tank ever, I would assume that my bubble disperser system is creating a high CO2 output in the tank. I will try sometime to capture the bubbles that are floating throughout the tank, in particular in the bolbitis area which sits right in the powerhead stream.

Oh, almost forgot, no - there are no Amanos in this tank. I am not certain how they would do with the Apistos, and also if they would eat potential Apisto eggs.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a shot of the tips of it, not too pleasant

It's that damn Jersey Water .

Welcome back LF

My Scapes

hi little fish -

the females are absolutely ready for the male - they're not going to get any bigger. mine weigh in at a hefty 3-4 cm's or so, while the males can be up to 9cms... but we all know who wears the pants in apisto world.

justin

Tetratech - you know what? I begin to believe your water story. I mean, one can really call this tank fish understocked, with 6 smaller Otos and one Apisto. I feed ferts all the time, have high CO2, what else could it be?

Justin - thanks for the thumbs up on the Apisto females. I will go ahead then this weekend and add them to the tank. That is going to be very interesting.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Tetratech - you know what? I begin to believe your water story. I mean, one can really call this tank fish understocked, with 6 smaller Otos and one Apisto. I feed ferts all the time, have high CO2, what else could it be?

.

Seems to me you did everything right. Good filter, eco-complete for extra biofiltration. low fish load. Two questions one more plausble than the other.

1. I know your probably sick of people asking this, but are you sure your co2 is way up?
2. I doubt this, but is anyone overfeeding the fishes while your away?

The only thing you did that I would have not done is when you pulled out all those weeds you did it in one shot. But I really doubt if your current algae problems are the result of that.



My Scapes

Something that would put an end to the water theory. I bought mine from this guy. Pretty good quality, very good price...can't beat it for the money. Of course I realize how silly this would be for %50 water changes on the 125, but maybe work up to 50/50 RO/tap for the 40 and see how it goes. Or start up a small tank...say 10G high light and CO2 with all reconstituted RO water and see what happens.

I'm with tetratech though. I don't think it's in the tap water. It's always possible there's trace amounts of ammonia in the tap causing algae. Something that would fly under the radar. An RO unit would remove that. But, I dunno. I've been stumped on your tanks for quite some time.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi LF

I think you are fine to add the females. Mine were always less than half the size of the males, but could always hold their own.

Cheers
TW

I was thinking about your algae problem,

My 12 G hex has two annubus (no I still haven't learnt how to spell that word!!!) and they have black algae stuff too, but only on their older leaves the new bits look very good.

any how I am going to add hornwort - not permently just a s afloating bunch to see if it soaks up the extra nutrients and kills off the algae.

I don't do half the things you guys do so this might be a really lame idea but I am going to try since its a)cheap and b) simple.

Another thing a read about was breaking up the lighting period, four hours on two off fours on. I will hunt up the link.

I still think the tank looks fab tho. Next weekend is the big change over for me. ugh.

Good Luck
GFG



_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

To comment on your questions and suggestions in order of entry:

Tetratech - no, I am not 100% sure that my CO2 is up there as I have never measured anything. But, given the 2 to 3 bubbles per second that are nicely dispersed throughout the tank, I would guesstimate to have at least 30ppm in the evening hours. And nobody has ever yet fed the fish but myself, and I only feed a very few flakes (broken up) and an occasional treat to one fish in the tank, the Apisto. I believe though that the micro sword screated quite some hard to remove layer of gunk when it was initially settling in.

Matty - nothing to say about the fishies I gor from you? You can be proud of having picked such lovely girls for me . About the RO unit: there would be a little problem as I would have to up the ph in the water quite a bit as my natural ph is only about 7. I think I would not find the time to do this kind of special treatment for a tank. This is also part of the reason why none of my tanks houses any high ph loving fishies, I fail at maintaing a stable environment even when I don't have to mess with the ph.

Robyn - thanks for the thumbs up on the Apistos, I can't wait to add them. I think I will do it in the morning as then the ph should be similar to the QT where there is no CO2 injection.

GFG - say after me A-Nu-Bi-As Anubias . Yeah, these plants are the first to show major BBA signs in my tanks as well, that's because they are such slow growers. Albeit I know that Hornwort is supposed to help, it is just plain toooooo ugly for me to be an option .

Thanks to all of you,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
I would truly try to get as best an estimate on your co2, before assuming anything. 2 to 3 bps per second doesn't sound bad but it might not be as high as you think. This is where the lifestyle comes in. I would slightly raise it and watch the fish during the day. When they show signs of stress late in the day bac off a bit and you've probably reached the optimum level.

You know about the degassing procedure to test co2 content. Many believe it is more acurate than the ph/kh chart. All you do is take a sample of your water preferrably in the afternoon and let it sit for 24hrs. There are forumlas out there, but if you ph raises by a full point (i.e. 6.5 to 7.5) then you should have about 30ppm. Unfortunately you still have to use a ph test, but you'll be able to compare colors as opposed to interperting one color.

My Scapes

Hm,

Sounds good, but my current work schedule is too crazy to allow me to live on the edge. What if I am a tad too high and cannot make it home in time at night. The prize I have to pay is too high, I really like my fishies

Degassing, sounds nice too, but my natural tab ph is only 7. So, wouldn't that mean that my ph would have to be 6 in the tank? And that with a KH that is raised by Baking Soda to about 3 to 4? That would be way too high of a CO2, I believe.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Matty - nothing to say about the fishies I gor from you? You can be proud of having picked such lovely girls for me

I thought I had bragged enough about them. They are inded lovely. I agree that it's about time to put them in there with the male. I'd do it when you have some time to watch them though. Being there's two of them, the male will have a harder time bossing just one of them around.

About the RO water, I usnderstand why you wouldn't want to do it, but your water being pH 7 shouldn't be one of them. Pure RO water will have a pH right around that. You won't have to mess with it more than your tap water. I'd just reconstitute it with some baking soda or whatever you are already using to bring up the KH.

Also about the degassing. If the pH moves by 1 full point, that means the CO2 levels have moved by a factor of 10. Say from 2.3 to 23. Which is great if the stable atmospheric CO2 levels in your tank are about 3. It's not really an exact measure of how much CO2 you have in your tank, just that you've increased the CO2 by 10X.

That would be way too high of a CO2, I believe.

Well see that's the thing. You don't really know. Generally it's around 30. It can be as high as 50 or as low as 20. It would probably be a great test for me, because my target is 6.7 from 7.8pH KH is 5. That's a little more than 1 full point, but who can tell the difference between 6.7 and 6.8.? On the other hand, what if your pH is 7.7 and your KH is 3. Moving the pH to 6.7 gives you a bit less than 20ppm.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Degassing, sounds nice too, but my natural tab ph is only 7. So, wouldn't that mean that my ph would have to be 6 in the tank? And that with a KH that is raised by Baking Soda to about 3 to 4? That would be way too high of a CO2, I believe.

B.I.N.G.O. I thing you just won an algae free tank. Degas the sample and see what the PH is. If it's 7 like your tap then you should lower your ph to 6. This should give you approximately 30ppm. Forget the equilibrium BS or if you want to be on the safe side put less in, maybe keep your kh at 2. Mine is 2 naturally and I never had a problem. My ph is off the test kit. Remember you need to do this slowly. If you could trust your regulator, do it gradually over a few days, maybe when you have a day off. I trully think your co2 is too low. Your ferting (EI - estimate), you got light, low stock, good biofilter. Do it on the weekend or a day when your around. You need to push the limits of the co2 and then back it down a notch. That's your space. Fish adjust over time. Remember I told you when I acclimate fish in the evening if I don't do it really slow they go up and gasp, but the existing fish are fine. It's like anything else fish can adjust slowly. People keep cardinals at 5.5 and other at 7.5.





My Scapes

Thanks guys, I will try to see what I can do, but I will wait a little as I first will get my fishies (tomorrow) used to the tank as it is.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 15

This week hasn't seen much action tankwise, besides the ferts nothing happened all week until this weekends water change. As is known, I begin to have a few minor algae issues at the end of the bolbitis leaves, but I am not sure if I should worry about it yet.

This weekend I did some switching of a few plants between the 125G and this tank, some Blyxa and Pearl Grass came to this tank while some micro sword went the other way. No major overhaul was needed to perform the rather minor changes.

Here are a few shots of the tank, specially for Matty who seems to just love the idea of looking at my tank from all kinds of angles

First, the classic Ingo full frontal shot:

Attached Image:

Full Tank - Main View

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

With regards to CO2, the bubbles that you can see are CO2 bubbles being pushed through the tank. I think this is enough, don't you?

Here is a closer look at the main View right hand side, with the pearl grass instead of the swords. Also visible are a few anubias leaves with signs of black spot algae.

Attached Image:

Right Front

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now here is the tank from the back, clearly you can see how the CO2 bubbles are pushed out by the powerhead. I don't think that there is much more that could do to increase the dispersal even more.

Attached Image:

Full Tank - Back View

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

In the back view is also a new row of Blyxa that I brought over from the 125. If you look at the right side of the following picture you will see my red wendtii plants. They are in the tank for a few weeks now and, albeit still small, didn't melt too much at all.

Attached Image:

Back Blyxa

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Next is an angled shot from the back, showing how little plant mass has been left in the middle of the tank. Only some anubias, blyxas, and a driftwood branch separate front to back.

Attached Image:

Back Angled

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is now a Matty special

Showing the open short side (the other short side has the equipment for the tank coming in, alas not really all open) with the back side:

Attached Image:

Back and Open Short

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is the same short side, this time looking into the front of the tank as well. I am most certain that I am not done with changes to the plants, but I will take my time to replace parts of the tanks as time goes on.

Attached Image:

Front and Open Side

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a look into the main view of the tank, slightly angled from above to show the open space in the middle of the tank.

From this distance the Bolbitis looks actually pretty good, compared to the closeup shot from yesterday.

Attached Image:

Full Main Angled

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The last full shot of the tank is from the side that holds the equipment and includes the light as well to give a better idea of how this tank looks when someone would be in the room and look at it live.

Attached Image:

With Equipment

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Last but not least, here is the boss eagerly awaiting the arrival of his girls tomorrow. You can play "I Spy" with the previous pictures as he is in almost all of the ones from this series.

I sure find him to be a very handsome fellow

Attached Image:

Male Apisto

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Nice lookin' apisto there LF. Or should I say that's one nice LF, LF. Thanks for all the different angles. I really enjoy 360(ish) tanks. I'd love a room divider like that one day. My SW tank is visible on the front panel and the two sides, and I just find myself looking through the sides as much as the front. I dunno what it is, but I have a hard time accepting flat images when I know it looks different from other angles.

The only real comment I have for this tank is the view from the "back" as you have labeled it. I think if the blyxa were not in a row, but outlined the path through the middle a bit more it would look a little better. Unless you are going to just fill that section in. That would be attractive as well. Otherwise I like the little changes in this tank.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I really like this tank. You can now see all the different shapes & textures of the plants where before, the floor covering all looked a bit too much the same. The wood shows up really well now too. I think I like the less crowded look, where each plant grouping has it's own definition.

Cheers
TW

Thanks to both of you for the comments, as always they are very much appreciated

Matty - I am with you on the Blyxa being lined up there, but I will have to wait until intuition strikes and tells me where else, or how else, I could use this plant. As I said, the tank is not done yet and small changes will happen in the near future.

Robyn - And yes, I agree, having the ground cover broken up makes it look better, I see this now. The danger I have to maintain right now is not to fall into the trap of making each distinct plant section a new species. I have to keep in mind that less is more when it comes to plant varieties in the tank.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well,

Operation Fish Transport is on its way. About an hour and twenty minutes ago I started the acclimation process of the two girl Apistos and almost the whole time the male was right there.

Pardon the crappy picture quality but I had to use the flash to see him flash (got it? I know, not all that brilliant,).

Here is an upfront shot before they will be released:

Attached Image:

Coming Together

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok,

Here are a few more shots after I turned on the light in the tank.

Here is the male at the bag, I am sorry I couldn't get a good shot of him flashing the bag:

Attached Image:

Apistos I

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here are the girls in the bag by themselves, just about a minute before being added to the tank after almost 2 hours in the acclimatization process:

Attached Image:

Apistos II

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the male at the same time, patrolling the tank to make sure that there is not all of a sudden a rival that could spoil his price in the bag.

Attached Image:

Apistos III

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And as soon as they were released the male started to display to them, and nothing of that has changed in the last 40 min. Both seem more or less drawn to him, and he is drawn to both of them. He managed to show off the caves in the two hills of the tank, and each time a female followed him inside, followed by fin flapping of the male in the caves.

Here he is showing off to one of them, with an Oto onlooking the scene , but I don't think he cares at all.

Is it just me or did the female already turn a little yellow? Interestingly, the female that is almost all the time on his side is rather pale and almost doesn't move when he is near by.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Apistos IV

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi,
Perhaps she is playing "hard to get?"

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks Frank,

I guess she is still scared of the fact that he is about 3 times her size

Anyway, here are a few more pictures from today. First off one of the two females:

Attached Image:

Female Apisto

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the other one. I have to say sorry for the bad quality of the shots, and the algae on the glass, but that is as good as it gets for now.

Attached Image:

Other Female

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here are now 3 more "Show-Off" pictures. In this first one the female is behind him and can be seen over his sholder. I like having females in the tank even if it is simply for the fact that I get to see his finnage more often.

Attached Image:

Showing Off I

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

In this shot he is between the two females, a spot where I found him a few times during the day. When he is around none of the female chases after the other, but when he is gone the one less (just a tad less) drawn to him chases after the other one, but not too wild.

Attached Image:

Showing Off II

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And I personally find this one the best Show-Off shot I could get so far. With the female behind him he is blowing himself up so much that even his gills stick out all the way. He sure likes his new companions

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Showing Off III

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Glad the introductions went so well. That is certainly a male showing off to his best ability. Looks like his head will expode, he is so puffed full of pride.

Cheers
TW

Hopefully we will hear the sounds of little fishie fins swimming in the water!

Glad the intro of the girls went well.

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Looks like his head will expode

Sure does, doesn't it?

Yeah, I cannot wait for little fishies to swim through the tank, although I resist in getting my hopes up that this would ever be the case. I have never used baby fish food in my live and I have no idea how to get it close to any potential fry.

Thanks for the input,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yup, call me the matchmaker. I sure know how to pick out healthy, HOT(insert more appropriate word) female apistos. You can tell he's impressed, what a lucky fish. *wolf howl, whistles, oogley eyes*

(was that enough bragging this time LF, or should I keep going?)

I'm very glad it went well. They seem to have formed quite the love triangle. I bet he can't wait for the film cannisters.

EDIT: hehe I got sensored describing the hot looks of the lady apistos.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

EDIT: hehe I got sensored describing the hot looks of the lady apistos

Way too funny!

LF,
Your little fish look really nice. We just got some double reds in at work but they are nothing compared to your Orange Flashes! Super fish! Nice job Matty!

Over and out...

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

was that enough bragging this time LF, or should I keep going?

Keep on going

Thanks for the input, even the censored one that I will never see.

Wings - You should see his color in person, it is even better

I really hope they will be fine in there,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

ingo, they look fantastic - the male is VERY impressive, and i'm sure there will be breeding very shortly. i don't think you should stress about feeding the babies - i would stuff as much java moss as i could into places where you can't see it, close to the ground, (or where you can see it, but i doubt that fits with your visual plan right now)and let nature take her course. the java moss will build a 'culture' of micro-life that hopefully the babies can survive on. it might take a few batches, but when there's enough food, the babies survive. i've only ever fed my mothers their usual blood worms and brine shrimp, which the babies MIGHT have been able to get a tiny scrap of. so it depends - if you want to raise a whole batch (which you might not be able to do with new mothers, anyways - they may well go through a few broods themselves before they get the hang of things) you might wanna feed the fry. if not, you can still have a (perhaps more natural)breeding colony of apistos. it makes fascinating viewing!

best of luck, they all look gorgeous,

justin

Justin,

Thanks for the input and the compliment on the male

The one problem I could see with moss in the tank is that it would be virtually impossible to get rid of it again and that it would start to spread. Otherwise that seems like a great idea.

And I am on board with the idea of letting things go "more" natural, meaning having to have the fry grow up on their own. I don't know if you follow my 125G log, but I had great success with doing just that with my Espei.

Oh - btw, not much additional yellowing on the females has happened so far. Do they get bright yellow like my viejita II do?

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yeah, those will get very yellow as well. Almost all female apistos will, especially when they are in the mood or trying to guard fry. I think there's probably plenty of stuffs to be found amongst the other plants, but I agree the java moss is probably the best thing I can think of.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks Matty for the heads up on the yellowing of the females, I am looking forward to their color change then

I doub't that I will add moss to the tank though, in the long run it may become too messy. I have these two natural caves in the two hill sections and I would have to shove the moss in there. As such they would not be easily controllable, I think.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now here is a little update for the algae lovers amongst us. Here is a shot of the top of the most affected Bolbitis tip as it is right under the light, just below water surface.

As you may see, we have Staghorn and Brush united on this leaf. What you cannot see is that below the area displayed here, the leaf is clearly collection BGA (yes, blue green) on it. Nice, not much missing in there

How the hell can I have all these algaes at once?

Ingo

Attached Image:

Darn Algae

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That looks like something from the nightmare I had last night...

><>

What is your CO2 at? Might be a good idea to bump it up a bit more. I know that tetra and I really push it on our fish.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

That looks like something from the nightmare I had last night

- good comment, pretty much sums up my feelings about it as well, superlion

Wings - and all the others on the same wave length - I guess I will have to get the measuring tools out then. I will let you know what I find out.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I am really intrested to see where you are at with the CO2. I keep my over 30ppm almost all the time.

I am really sorry to see that stuff in your tank. It is really not that pretty.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Quick Update on the Bolbitis and its algae.

The first action of tonight was a complete trim of all infected bolbitis leaves, which are pretty much all the plant had when I got it (coincidence, I don't think so).

Here is the full tank afterwards (in an angle, right Matty?)

Attached Image:

Full Tank

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

See Last Page For Full Tank Shot After Tonights Trimming

Here is a close-up of the new trimmed area. As you can see, some new growth is still there, actually that one does not look infested at all.

Also, you may notice the first visible Crypt Wndtii leaves in the background:

Attached Image:

Closer Look

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Home early today?

My Scapes

Then I did some water testing for N, ph, and KH

NO3 = above 40ppm
ph = less than 6.6, but more than 6.4 - so let's assume 6.6
KH = 5DH

So, this is after only 7.5h of lights on, way not the end of the light cycle.

And it means -->>> at least a CO2 of 38ppm, and that is on the safe side of measuring.

Any thoughts?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I never really had a problem with BBA. I got it when I didn't take care of the tank, and when I trimmed it all out, it never came back after I started paying attention to it again. I'd just make sure all the nutrients were there and it wouldn't grow anymore. What I didn't get would stay there, kinda in limbo I guess.

EDIT: I always forget something I mean to say. It was, yep, I like the angle shots. It shows the depth off well. Especially in a tank with wood blocking a lot of the smaller plants from view.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

And it means -->>> at least a CO2 of 38ppm, and that is on the safe side of measuring.

LF,
Take a sample of your water and aerate it for an hour or so and then test it. This should bring your co2 in line with the atmosphere. You can't go by your tap because it could come out with high co2. The true PH of your tank without co2 injection is what it would be in your tank after it's exposed to the air for awhile. Whatever the PH is after you aerate (or let stand for 24hrs) you should use your co2 to target one full point lower.



My Scapes

This is the PH reading from my 72g (yellow) and from my nano (dark green) The nano reading basically represents a degassed sample from the 72g. You could see the difference in the readings. Hard to tell exactly what the difference is but I think the 72g sample is off the chart and the nano sample is quite dark. But you really can't tell exactly what the ph is. This is why you must test the limits of your co2 and then stop when the fish show signs of distress. This would probably be the most beneficial level of co2 for your tank. Why not slowly up it everyday until you see a problem? Of course you have to be able to live the lifestyle

Attached Image:


My Scapes

Thanks Tetratech,

I don't have too much time, gotta go and read the kids a bedtime story.

Anyway, quick update on the tank, two fold:

1) I just took a tab water sample to let it degas for 24h. The current tab reading has a ph of 7.2

2) Strange things are happening in the tank. When I came home I could not find either or female. A few minutes later I saw one emerge on the left tank side. As soon as the male saw her he chased her away aggressively. Another few minutes later I saw the other female emerge from a small gap in the right hill. Here, the male was displaying to her, and she did the same to him, turning her body 90 degrees sideways when close to him. Soon after she went back into that gap. During the next maybe 25 min the chasing of one and the display with the other repeated itself about 3 times each. He doesn't let the other female to the right side of the tank at all.

I guess we got something going here, albeit I have to say that the selected female is not bright yellow, more of a pale yellow (while the chased one is not yellow at all).

Now its story time,

Ingo

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1) I just took a tab water sample to let it degas for 24h. The current tab reading has a ph of 7.2

That makes perfect sense. Since there is co2 coming right out of the tap it would makes sense that degassed your ph is 7.2. So you should be shooting for a ph of around 6.2, which is lower than you current ph which is telling me your co2 is too low.

Hope the kiddies enjoyed their story. Does it the story have a little fish in it?/:'

My Scapes

Does it the story have a little fish in it?

Yeah, the one who reads it is LITTLE_FISH

But no tetratech - I think you misunderstood. Or maybe I don't get it. I just took the sample from the tab last night, it was not degassed yet. I will have to measure the sample again tonight to find out what the degassed value is.

Also, this sample does not contain any baking soda that I add to my tank to raise the KH. When you say it should be in the end around 6.2 in the tank, how can this be completely independent of the KH as I would have a much higher CO2 at 5DH than at 2DH?

Ingo

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But no tetratech - I think you misunderstood. Or maybe I don't get it. I just took the sample from the tab last night, it was not degassed yet. I will have to measure the sample again tonight to find out what the degassed value is.

I guess we misunderstood each other Take a waster sample from the tank and let it degass for 24hrs or aerate it for a few hours. Now you will have the PH of your tank without the co2. Whatever it is, try for a 1 pt drop by adjusting your co2 rate.


My Scapes

try for a 1 pt drop by adjusting your co2 rate

Call me a silly old man, or anything, but I still don't get that part.

Isn't the KH the component in the water that defines how much CO2 can be bound to the water (sorry, probably not the right Chemical terms here)? Meaning - Having a sample degas that has a Kh of 2 should result in a higher ph after 24h than a sample with a KH of 5?

Ingo

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LF,

You KH is what fights to keep the PH from droping to fast. Thus the higher the KH the more CO2 you will have to pump in to drop the PH and just the oposit for a lower KH. In my case I have a very high KH of around 16 so it takes me more CO2 to get the PH down far enough to show enough CO2 in the water colum. Does that help? That is my best understandings of how it works. I am probably a bit off though.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

From here: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

Myth: A Low KH results in a larger pH swing when adding CO2.

Many people are under the mistaken impression that a low KH results in large pH swings when adding CO2, while raising the KH will result in smaller pH swings. This is not the case. The KH will move the start and end pH values, but the pH swing will be the same for a given level of CO2. You can see this in the chart below, or using the calculation:

Case 1: Assume a KH of 15 degrees, and a starting CO2 level of 4.5ppm, which would result in a pH of 8.0. If we then add CO2, to increase the CO2 level to 28ppm, that would drop the pH down to 7.2, for a pH shift of .8.

Case 2: Assume a KH of just 1.5 degrees, and a starting CO2 level of 4.5ppm, which would result in a pH of 7.0. If we then add CO2, to increase the CO2 level to 28ppm, that would drop the pH down to 6.2, for a pH shift of .8, the exact same as in case 1.

One possible explanation for this myth is that many copies of this pH chart skip some of the higher pH values, for example, jumping from pH 7.4 to a pH of 8.0. If the reader didn't pay careful attention, they might mis-interpret the size of the pH swing. I specifically made sure to include all pH values, between 6 and 8, in steps of .2.

This relationship will break down at extremely low KH levels (below 1 degree), when there isn't enough carbonate to completely buffer the acids present. In that case, the pH can drop quickly and dramatically. But if the KH is 1 degree or higher, then the size of the pH swing when injecting CO2 will be determined only by the amount of CO2 dissolved in the water.

Tetratech's got the right idea with this degassing thing, though telling someone to drop 1 point pH can be a tiny bit inaccurate like I pointed out earlier in some cases depending on starting pH and CO2. However, in most cases 1 full point of pH will be about 30 ppm of CO2. This goes for all values of KH except for those under 1KH. Other than at very small values(when it can't buffer), KH has no effect except moving the starting and ending values of pH.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

OK Matty,

So here is then what I should do:

- Take a water sample from the tank tonight, best would be just before lights out (that is also when the CO2 shuts off)
- Measure its ph
- Wait 24h
- Measure its ph

I can completely neglect the KH in the sample, right? Also, given that I had measured a ph of at max 6.6 and a KH of around 5, which by the chart should bring me to a CO2 level of around 38ppm, I should see after 24h a ph of at least 7.6. Right? And what is wrong if I see a lower ph value? Most likely the KH test kit? Maybe the ph test kit? Anything else?

Ingo

EDIT: Matty, did you read a few posts up news regarding the Apistos?

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

GEAARG!!

I just deleted my post on accident.

Errmm lesse if I can remember what I just posted. Yes you got it right about the Degassing method now. I think your other test was a bit skewed because you used tap, and you alter your tank water. That's not the right way to test. You gotta test the tank water twice, once before and once after 24 hrs. Or test the degassed waterafter 24 hrs and then take a sample from your tank at the same time to compare side by side.

In regards to the apistos, I think the females are still young. Not small, but really too young to breed successfully. The male is trying to court one of them and that's why he doesn't really want the other around. If I remember right the harem breeders will take turns with the females. Not all at once but one after the other. So I don't think it's anything to worry about it such a large tank, unless it's disrupting meals for the odd female out.

Oh yea and please go vote for my new plant profile; E. tenellus.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

LF,
Just test the damn water and drop it by about 1 pt ph by slowing adjusting your co2 output. make sure your watch your fish by living the lifestyle for one weekend

BTW - Aquarium Adventure just got in Agazzi double-red, orange hi-fin cacs (looked just like yours) and your viejia. I don't know if the viejia were 1,2 or 3, they are not that sophicated. There's a note on the tank that says consult cichlid book which you could find in the store's library. Yes all the aquarium has a library with a couch.

My Scapes

Thanks to both of you

I tested the sample water from the tank last night, just before lights out. I had a ph of 6.4. so we will see what the ph of that sample is tonight.

On the Apisto frontier: The "selected" female is clearly defending some area in the right hill. She comes out sparely and when she does she is all dark. The only time she shifts colors to a more pale yellow (within 1 to 2 seconds, btw) is when the male is really near by. Unfortunately, during feeding she ventured off and I saw the other female sneak into that cave twice . The third time around she was there and chased her away. Looks like breeding to me, albeit I have no idea if this is only a training session or the real deal.

Ingo

EDIT: Tetratech - yeah, I have seen their library, very nice touch. Did you feel the urge to buy more apistos?

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Quick Update:

Because of scheduling issues, I took made the second ph test 23h after the initial one. I don't think it will make much of a difference, right?

Anyway, I got a blue color that I would place between 7.2 and 7.6, there are no color steps on the chart between these two values.

Let us assume it is 7.4, ok? Means one above what it was last night. That means now 30ppm, right? Sounds good to me. When I measured my CO2 directly I came up with about 38ppm minimum. Sounds about the same.

Opinions?

Ingo

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It wouldn't hurt to bump it up just a little bit. I think I am running mine at around 48 or a bit higher for my night time target. Fish seem to be fine.

For you I am guess a Ph of 6.4 or 6.5 would be fine.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Hi LF, that will be exciting if you have eggs already. If she's young, don't worry if the first bunch don't make it though.

Keep us posted on the plants & the romance in your tank.

Cheers
TW

Wings - my ph at night is 6.4, so I would be right on, right?

Robyn - Yeah, I am not getting my hopes on fry up as of yet, although the female is for sure defending something in that hill and barely comes out at all, usually only to chase the other female away or to grab a quick bit of food.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 16

This week has seen the major cutting back of the bolbitis. I am not convinced that the issues with it came from bad water parameters, although all signs of algae on it indicate so. Bolbitis is known to take quite a while to settle. I assume that the unsettled plant was not able to provide the leaves with whatever they need as the plant in itself used it all up to settle on the wood. Time will tell, so far the new growth looks still good.

Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Last Weekend

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And here is the tank now. As you may notice, I did a few more minor changes to the plants. I removed all micro swords from the front left and replaced them with the last Blyxa I had in the 125G (was always intended to end up in the 40G), and two stems of Wisteria.

Attached Image:

Now

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Here is a closer look at this group. Notice the Oto in the center of the picture on the substrate. If you have any idea how large Blyxa is then you can imagine how small the Oto still is. I have been very lucky with them so far, I would have never thought that I can manage to keep them all alive.

Attached Image:

Closer Look

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I wish I could show you a picture of the "breeding" female (or whatever she is doing in that hill), but she barely comes out. When she does she is almost all black, the warning or scared color of the Apistos that I have. And usually she is chasing the other female away at high speed.

The male now begins to switch between chasing that female and courting her. Here she is, showing some yellowing as well:

Attached Image:

Other Female

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Look at bottom of previous page to view small changes in the scape

One of the best things of having females in the tank is that the male really likes to spread his finnage. This makes him so much more handsome looking

Here he is:

Attached Image:

Male Cac

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Here he is, discovering that the "other" female is coming very close to the "nest" of the breeding female. He sneaks up on her very slowly. As you may see, when you compare her coloration in this shot to the one two above, the black markings on her side are gone. I am amazed how fast they can change their looks.

Attached Image:

Watch Out Where You Are Going

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On the other hand, here he is, but this time it is more courtship than chase. There, her black side area is visible again.

This is it for this weeks update,

Have Fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Hello There, Honey

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Ingo,
The tank looks much better with the removal of the microswords. I like the different texures of leaves, etc around the wood. I'm not sure about the blyxa center, yet. It might be too tall and take away from the wood focals.

Your male cac sure is flaming Not that there's anything wrong with that.

My Scapes

I'm not sure about the blyxa center, yet.

Good point tetratech, and thanks for the input.

I am glad that this tank allows me to perform small changes without having to mess with the rest of the tank (unlike the big tank). I can imagine that the one Blyxa right in the center might be the culprit for the fusing of the two groups (see picture), maybe I will move it in a while, when I know better how the rest of the tank will be structured. I come more and more to the conclusion that the micro sword was not a good choice for this tank.

About the Apisto: I am curious, did the one that they sell as a high fin in your LFS have an even longer dorsal fin?

Ingo

Attached Image:

Remove This One?

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6.4 ph with a Kh of 5 gives you 60ppm CO2. I think that is pretty good. How are your fish with it? I don't know if you would want to push it much more.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Your male cac sure is flaming

I think you mean metrosexual, he likes females, but likes to look pretty too.

Nice update on the cacs, LF. It looks like they are starting to settle in nicely. Soon they'll all have their own positions in the heirarchy and everything will go smoothly, hopefully even the breeding.

From what I can tell it looks like the bolbitus does have some nice new growth on it. Those are nice when they settle in and get healthy. I hope they make it for you.

Sounds like the CO2 is up where it should be. I guess that leaves the NJ tap water.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

How are your fish with it? I don't know if you would want to push it much more.

Yeah, I think I have enough evidence to show that I am at least at 30ppm, if not more. Fish so far are fine, but I would like to test the "not-so-settled-plant --- and-therefore-algae" theory a little longer. If all else fails then I could maybe try other things.

Matty - yes, the new bolbitis growth is looking good so far. I really hope that the plant will do better now, but one thing I will have to wait out a for a while is to see what happens to leaves once they reach the hight of the original ones. Thanks for the thumbs up on the Cacs ,

Ingo

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Last night, I studied the behavior of the Apistos some more. Now I am thinking that there may not be any actual breeding.

The second female made the left hill her home now. Whenever the male swims by she comes out and presents herself sideways to him, and as soon as he comes close she seem to try to lure him into the cave under the hill.

Sometimes, when he is over the right hill, the first female shows similar behavior, although she seems to be more eager to get back into the cave.

Now I assume that this is how female Cacs behave in general, finding their spot for a potential spawn and then trying to get a male to come.

Ingo

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I didn't really think they would already be breeding, but it seems like everybody is getting ready and settled in. I say give them some time. It's also very important they are fed well, with food almost always available. This is kind of opposite of what you want in a nice planted tank though. Situations like this always make me wish that protein skimmers worked on FW tanks. So maybe if they don't breed with regular feedings after a couple months then maybe kick it up a bit if you don't mind the possibility of extra algae from the increased feedings. Maybe even go to the live baby brine shrimp. That usually gets fish pretty perky.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I think it was Ben that was talking about some people using skimmers on their FW planted tanks. I would have to do some digging around to find out what exacly it was about but I think it had to do with the scum layer you sometimes get on the tank. Right now I don't really have to time or energy to look it up but I thought I would throw it out there.



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

That's a surface skimmer. It pulls water off the top instead of taking water from the middle of the column. Yep, it's used to get rid of that surface scum. A protein skimmer is a totally different story and operates on increased surface tension of salt water. It makes lots of little bubbles and proteins rideon those bubbles into a collection cup. The proteins will contain nitrogenous wastes and Phosphates and things not yet broken down into ammonia and other simple wastes.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

That's a surface skimmer ... A protein skimmer ...

That is why it is good to have a dark side person here in the forum

On the tank side, there is nothing new to report. The right hill female barely comes out of her cave while the left hill female is obviously trying to get the male to come into the cave with her, which he doesn't. She switched colors really quickly from a drab gray to a medium yellow (not as bright as my viejita female is all the time) when the male is near by.

Ingo

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That's a surface skimmer.

Thanks Mr. Darkside! What would we do with out you!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

What would we do with out you!

Try to get rid of surface scum with a $100 SW contraption?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Try to get rid of surface scum with a $100 SW contraption?

:: calls BigAls to cancel order ::

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Back in the saddle!

Well,

I am a father again



When I came home tonight the female of the right hill was out more often than before, but mostly active all the way to the right of the tank. Upon closer inspections I found her hovering over a group of wigglers. Hard to tell how many are there, I think to have seen maybe 5

I know, it will be hard for these little guys to make it, but at least my guessing on what is going on was correct. The little ones are maybe 1mm long and white, occasionally lifting themselves off the ground about an half an inch or so. This is also the first time for me that I see a mother fish in action, picking up one guy that strayed too far from the spot where the others where and then spitting him back out into the center of the group.

I tried to get a shot of it, but it is really hard. Here is a picture as good as it gets for the time being. The white thing in the circle is one fry.

Question:
Should I do a water change on the tank tomorrow?

Ingo

Attached Image:

Fry in Circle

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Hi,
I'd pass on the water change. Many times the parents
perceive the ruckus as a threat and they actually eat
their fry.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Congratulations grandpa. I had a sneaky feeling this was what was going on. My female became scarce during the egg guarding period too. Came out for food & short appearances, but mainly was unseen till she brought her brood out. It makes the tank really interesting when you are watching her with them. I could watch mum & fry for ages - but then, maybe I need to get a life.

The advice I got when I had my apisto fry was that they require really clean water & that you do frequent small changes, but take it from the top water column. No gravel vacuuming & such. If you are not target feeding with BBS, the water issue may not be so crucial for you. Usually, if you are target feeding them BBS 3 times a day, there is waste & you need to clean it. If you are just going to let things happen, as they happen & let the fry try to find food in the tank, I don't think frequent cleaning is required. My females never ate their fry (that I saw) but I know that it does happen. Some say even the sudden turning on & off of the lights can spook her into making such a mistake. That was why I put a little moon light there. You can either have it going the whole time the other lights are off (it helps her to keep away the other female, if she is a fry eater). Or you could just have it go on for a little bit before & after the main lights turn on & off. The change over then is not so sudden.

5 or 6 was all I got from my girl's 1st try, but her next try was just over 20.

Fingers crossed for you Ingo. Keep us posted on this exciting development. I hope some make it.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Frank and Robyn,

I will take a closer look at the situation today and decide on the fly if I should do a water change or not. I certainly would not like to risk algae issues just because there may be a chance that some fry are still alive. If I do a water change then I will get the water from the top of the tank.

I am also thinking about soaking some flakes in water to almost dissolve them and then use a dropper to spot feed the mix.

I will keep you posted,

Ingo

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Hey congrats Ingo. Looks like the females were a little older than I thought. I agree that frequent water changes are the way to go. BBS just fed in general would be a good idea IMO. The adults will eat it too. For the planted tank, I'd just feed it sparsely though, like you said overfeeding is going to cause algae, unless you want to go ahead with the breeding that is.

So I don't know if we got an answer of if you were going to let them try to find food on thier own or if you were going to pamper them?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

So I don't know if we got an answer of if you were going to let them try to find food on thier own or if you were going to pamper them?

Given that I am not in posession of BBS, the answer is simple, they are on their own .

It worked with the Espei, but of course I saw the major population explosion in that tank when there was still some diatoms available to munch on.

We will see what happens, and yes, I will do a water change today. Maybe I even continue some replanting on the opposite side of the tank, this may stir up some eatable gunk for the fry. But I think I have currently no more plants available to replace the micro sword. I will see.

Ingo

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Well, here is the good news and the bad news:

Good: the water change went well, I could not see any issues with the female.

Bad: now I see that the male has found the fry and he finds them tasty

I only see 5 left where there were at least around 10 a few hours ago.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Naughty daddy

Did the mum give him "what for" for his error. Usually both are good parents, so that's a shame. Are you sure dad ate them - did you see it? These fry are very fragile & not easy to raise from what I've been told & what I've found by experience. If you saw him red handed having a snack there can be no doubt, but if not, he may not be to blame. Remember, in the end all of mine were removed to grow out tanks (by the fish guy & some by me). One by one, they just died.

Also, do you have frozen BBS over there? I have found one brand that sells it & have used it. I think live BBS stimulates fry more with their swimming, but the frozen will still move around a little with the current - but the waste does tend to sink.

Re softening the flakes. You'll still need to crumble the flakes really well before you soak them. These guys have tiny, tiny mouths.

Don't be downhearted if none of the remaining 5 make it. Didn't take long for this batch to arrive, so I'm sure it won't take long for the next batch either.

Good luck & keep us posted.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Yeah, I have seen it . The female did flash him to go away, but when he intruded anyway she was overwhelmed and let him have his pickings. Just before dinner last night I did not see any fry anymore

Weekly Tank Update - Week 17

Not much has happend with this tank during the last week, except that my theory on breeding activity has been validated. But, as stated above, it went as fast as it came. On a positive note, the other female stays now mostly inside the hill on the left, making me believe she is only a few days behind the one on the right. How many batches will the male eat? I am considering removing him if he keeps on doing that.

I did some minor changes to the tank during the maintenance though, you will see them in a later picture.

Here is the full tank now:

Attached Image:

Now

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Here is a close-up of the nest of the fry, with the female over it. At this point there were still a few fry in there, but they are sooooo small that they don't show in the shot. BTW, this is not the spot where the eggs were, they were hidden much deeper inside the hill. She brought the fry out there for whatever reason.

Attached Image:

Female

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Here is the part that I changed this weekend. I removed even more micro swords and replaced them with some very small klippings of Hygro that I had left from the 125G trimming. They are now lined up on the left short tank side:

BTW, behind the rock is the cave of the other female.

Attached Image:

New Area

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Here is a full shot of the tank in a slight angle to show the depth a little better. BTW, algae has this week not been a major issue, the new bolbitis growth still seems fine, although it is not as high as the old one yet.

Attached Image:

Front Angle

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Here is the center area of the tank from the front, with the one fish in it that makes me a little angry these days. As pretty as he is, seems like his belly has more to say than his parental istincts. I wonder if the water change had something to do with it as before he never got close to the fry.

Attached Image:

Male in Center

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Last picture, a look from the back of the tank, also showing the 125 and the 29

I think within the next few weeks I will keep on reducing the micro swords until there are none left. For this tank it was certainly the wrong plant.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Back and Other Tanks

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That is too bad that he is a fry eater, instead of working as a team with wife no. 1. Maybe as the female matures, she will become confident enough not to allow him to do this. Matty believes she is young I think, so she probably needs to mature a bit more & get used to the idea of defending - even against her larger mate.

Lets see how he does with wife no. 2.

My favourite shot is the tank's frontal angle. I like the little triangle of space in between --- what are they --- the micro swords? If so, I hope you leave these ones in the tank. This is a really nice looking tank.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Robyn,

Yeah, let us hope they will beat the crap out of him if he tries that again.

what are they --- the micro swords?

That would be blyxa, you have it as well

Thanks for the compliments,

Ingo

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