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Yeah, normally they gasp at the surface. Maybe he's just in the "doghouse" for eating the eggs/fry. I hope he's doing better for you soon.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks guys,

I have not seen him today yet as I am leaving for work when it is still total darkness in my basement.

He kept his position until lights out last night, but it sure does not look good. I expect him to go to fish heaven, unfortunately

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well,

As of last night, the male Apisto was still alive. When I finally got home from work (another 12 hour workday he was in the same spot than the night before (as seen in picture above). After I fed the tank he moved once around the right hill, slowly with taking breaks to sit down on the substrate. I can see white very thin poop hanging on him (about 1.5 inches long), a very bad sign

My current thoughts are concerned with either waiting it out until he cannot move anymore or with releasing him from his misery.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You aren't going to try to isolate and medicate him? May be internal parasites or something though, usually tough to treat. Sorry LF .

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Why not break out the Metro and see if you can get him better? You can treat the water of the main tank directly, it won't hurt the other apisto females.

Sorry LF, fishy troubles are no good

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks guys,

Last thing I have heard is that if you see the signs (and I think for sure I do now) then it is too late anyway.

On the other hand, I might be able to safe the females (which don't show any signs yet) if I used the meds.

Decisions, decisions, decisions

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Update on the Flash?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I haven't checked in for a few days, as I've been really busy with work. I'm sorry to hear your male may be sick - just let me say I know what you are going through. I hear metro is easier to get a hold of in the US, so why not try it. I agree with the comments that internal parasites are hard to treat - I tried several times without success, but I have read of others who have treated successfully.

Let us know how things are going.

Cheers
TW

Thanks for the input

Last night, the behavior of the male has been the same as it was the two nights before, mostly sitting still on the substrate somewhere around the right hill. The females, as usual, were swimming around.

The one difference I saw was that he had his normal body color, a medium gray with the few horizontal stripes. The two days before he was all light gray only. I thought it was a good sign first, but then concluded that this must be the "untainted" coloration of the fish and all other shades are "handmade" to show either aggression, or affection, or to blend in.

I have metro at home, I bought it once about a year ago for my pearls in the QT when one died, but I never used it. I am not much of a medicator though and given that there may be a small chance only for him (if he has parasites) to survive I am still struggeling with a decision if I should use it or not.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

IMO LF, it may not be as late as you think. I've seen scrawny, emaciated, grey colored fish hovering behind the heater recover using metro - considering how safe it is for a med I don't see what you have to lose.

If he's eating, you can target him by mixing it with some frozen food, if he isn't then you can still add it to the water.

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Back in the saddle!

Hi LF, if it were me, I would try the metro. What is there to lose? If he doesn't make it anyway, you have lost nothing - but it just might help him out. You won't know unless you try. If he is still eating, NowherMan6 gives you good advice. From what I've been told, the most chance of success comes if you can get him to eat food that has been soaked in metro. If he has already given up food, then the only choice is to medicate the water.

Good luck with him.

Cheers
TW

Very valid point that you two are making there. I guess I will dose tonight.

This is the product that I have at home. Anyone dissagree with the suggested dosing on that site? I have to add it to the water column as the fish hasn't eaten in 3 days .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Toooooo Laaaaaate

Attached Image:

Sorry for the Graphics

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sorry LF. Hopefully the females will still do well until you can find a replacement male.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Oh, I'm so sorry LF. He was such a gorgeous fish & I know how sad it is when this happens. I hope your girls will be ok.

BTW, I'm amazed - you get metro from seachem? Over here you have to get a prescription & not many vets are willing to give a script for fish, as they say they don't know too much about them. I found one eventually that would write a script, but I got the tablet form. I think it also comes in liquid - which I think would have been better.

Anyway, once again I'm sorry for your loss.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Matty and Robyn,

I will see how this all progresses. My thoughts now are if I should treat the tank anyway, not knowing 100% for sure what killed the fish, but all indications are for parasites.

If it was a given that the male had to go then at least he could have done so before he ate all the fry

The females seem still ok and very active, but their behavior has completely changes. They are now after each other and show to each other all the time, barely finding time in between to feed.

Yeah Robyn, the metro can be bought here from online vendors, in case someone cares - I got mine from "That Fish Place". The 100g tube costs over $50 plus shipping.

Matty, I will have to see what I will do next with regards to a male. Should I wait a while and then take action? Should I take action now and have the LFS order me one (which can take up to 4 weeks)? Should I just give up on them as so far they have caused quite a string of issues (remember my all male club?)? I don't know...

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well, I know you are not one that likes to medicate - but I think in your circumstances, I would try to get them to eat some metro soaked food, as a precaution. I have been told by several people, that by the time these apistos show symptoms, it is already too late. So treating them now may give you an advantage.

As a contradiction to what I say above, a part of me believes that once the parasite sickness has taken hold, it is a hard disease to beat, no matter even if you medicate. But the medication at least gives a chance of cure, whereas not treating a sick fish can be no help. If we get cancer which may be terminal, we still go through the treatment, hopeful of a cure. I think more chance of success if treatment is given early - before symptoms.

One LFS over here (he was talking about discus - also sensitive fish) said he runs a UV sterilizer, plus on a regular basis (maybe every month - can't recall exactly what he said) he feeds them a metro soaked meal, as a precaution. If metro was easy to get here, I would do the same with any new apisto I buy. He apparently has a chemist friend, who gives it to him on the sly. I just don't understand why in the US you can buy it on-line (not even from a chemist) but we need a prescription. Grrrr

About getting another male. At least you have a QT to house him in, while you watch how things go with your girls. These parasites seem to take a long long time to show up though - you had him for quite a while before you saw a problem - how long was it? So what I am trying to say is, as the girls weren't with the male for all that long, if he did pass anything along, it might take a good while for it to show up. Therefore, I wouldn't add the male to that tank for at least 6 weeks, probably longer. What do you think Matty - even longer. If you saw a nice male, you could always leave him in QT for a longer than usual stint - but then, what to do with him if something happens to your girls?

Ah, it is not an easy decision. Probably, if I saw an especially nice male that I couldn't resist, I'd do the QT thing & just wait even a couple of months to join them, but I probably wouldn't actively look for a male. I'd let time pass first.

Cheers
TW

RIP pretty fishy

><>

Thanks Ladies

Yeah, the last thing I want right now is to get into a cycle of replacing fish all the time, buying a male now, then have the females die and buy new ones, then the male again ... and so forth.

BTW, Bensaf once said that he treats his tank (or used to) for parasites on a (I believe) 6 months interval as a precautionary measure.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That's exactly what I was meaning to say, in my long winded waffle.

1. That treating apistos as a precaution with metro for internal parasites could be a good option. If I had easy access to metro, that's what I'd do

2. That you don't want a nice new male in QT, only to have problems with the females in the Breeder.

Cheers
TW

So sorry LF. He's beautiful, even in that state.

As I said, treat the tank, and then treat the new guy whenever he comes around. It sounds like he only gave you a few days notice before he went. If you see any of the first signs, like a concave tummy or greying and darkening of color, it's time to treat.

Good luck with the catfights

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Back in the saddle!

Good luck with the catfights

You know, all last night that was what the girls were doing . One standoff followed the other.

Good that you mentioned the signs that I should keep an eye open for. Not because I didn't know them, but because this is the one and only reason why I hesitated to med the tank. Neither did my male have a concave tummy nor did he darken (actually he got lighter in color). The lack of these signs makes me wonder if parasites are actually the reason for his demise.

Just hypothetically: given that cichlids from SA are not doing too well in high N, could it be that his exposure to values of maybe up to 40ppm over an extended period was the reason for his death? The females are in the tank maybe a little over half the time that he was in it. How does a fish behave when dying of too much N over time (vs extreme overdose of N at once)?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I don't know if too much N will kill the fish directly. When my Rams started showing signs of Hole in the Head, I found plenty of info online pointing to poor water quality. When I checked my N it was way high (Bright Red! ).

From what I read it is more of contributing factor. If SA cichlids don't like high N in the water, it probably puts their bodies under stress. This leads to secondary infections of stuff that may have been dormant in the fish.

In the case of my Rams the male died within a couple days of showing symptoms. When I got wise to the High N I began doing 50% water changes which hold my N at about 15 ppm. The female was able to last for about 2 weeks before she passed. They both went in the tank at the same.

Just a thought.


Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Thanks Rick for sharing your thoughts, and I believe that they at least partially line up with my thinking.

I may have to add a little less N to the tank as its values seem way to high. I know the test kits are not accurate, but even if I lower the N I would still be above the 20ppm mark (by far).

On the Med Frontier: I used the metro last night and have one question. It says in the instructions that I should repeat every 2 days until the symptoms go away. Well, I have no symptoms, so how often do you think I should repeat? My thoughts are to do it at least one more time tomorrow after the water change.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I think your nitrates would need to be around 80ppm to cause serious enough problems to kill a fish in a short period of time(less than a couple years). Most Nittrate problems happen slowly. I think anything over 20ppm starts to get a bit stressful for mildly sensitive fish, personally. That's why I don't dose up to EI levels and am labelled a critical fertilator. I like to keep nitrates hovering around 10ppm.

As far as the meds. I'm no fish doctor. I don't usually medicate fish and try to stay out of medication discussions(which is hard when you work at an LFS). But I also know that dosing for short periods of time does nobody any good. I'd repeat at least once or twice, since you decided to go with it. And I'm not blaming you for doing so, not medicating is just something I do out of ignorance of disease and treatment.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

Thanks for the input. I am usually with you on the "non-med" team as I treat only what I can identify, and that has been Ich. My thoughts here were that I either could just wait and see how the girls will be doing or to dose meds for the most likely cause of death of the male. In the end, my social contience won as I just cannot handle that, if they should have become sick in the future, I could have done something about it.

The N discussion is only to make sure that I am not thinking up some illness when the culprit may be much more obvious (as in overferting).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I agree with Matty, repeat at least once - maybe a third. Are you treating the tank, or dosing their food?

I hope all goes well for them.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

I am treating the tank. I put some thought into medicating the food but then decided against it. Reason: the Otos. If it is a parasite and if it would be able to spread to the Otos then treating the food would not help them as they don't eat flakes and I don't give them any other form of food then what grows naturally in the tank.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Good point LF. The only thing is that for some reason, my otos never were affected by whatever killed off both sets of apistos. Whatever it was, they seem to be immune. There were 2 in each tank & I can still account for all - who have nice fat bellys.

Good luck with the girls. Keep us posted.

Cheers
TW

hey LF,

sorry to hear about the little fella - he was gorgeous and you looked after him very well.

give it a week, and then just go and get a new boy! just do it! you know you want to!!

i'm just in the process of deciding on another species to join my cacs in my 6 foot tank....

justin

Thanks Robyn and Justin

I will wait a little longer than just a week, although the constant bickering between the girls may make me change my mind soon

Weekly Tank Update - Week 20

The sole highlight of this week was a negative one, the death of my male Apisto. What a bummer, but I will move on.

Let's use this chance of a round weekly update to reflect on the tank in 5 week intervals. Here is the tank in week 1 (meaning one week after setup) after setup:

Attached Image:

Week 1

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Aready by week 5, all the fast growers had been replaced with a more permanent plant selection, although only some of the plants are actually still in the tank today. Here you see the whole surface covered with Micro Swords:

Attached Image:

Week 5

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Within the next 5 weeks, the tank had not seen many changes, mostly the wood had been moved around a little as it took me quite a while to figure out how to affix individual branches so they don't fall over all the time while doing a water change:

Attached Image:

Week 10

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

By week 15, the actual scaping process that leads to today's setup was well under way. As you can see, the bolbitis, more anubias, various blyxas, and some pearl grass are already in place.

The wood by then also had found its more permanent position.

Attached Image:

Week 15

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the full tank now after yesterday's water change and a few minor trimmings and replantings. It appears as if the Pearl Grass had not grown too much, but this is because I cut it back. Also, I don't think the Hygro will be able to stay for much longer as it begins to grow too tall:

Attached Image:

Tank Last Night

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a closer look at the Pearl Grass before I trimmed it yesterday. Usually, I pull out the entire plant and the cut off the bottom and replant the top. But once in a while, like yesterday, I cut off individual tops and leave the rest of the plant in the tank. This is rather time consuming, but I wanted to use the tops somewhere else while still having enough left of this group.

Attached Image:

Pearl Grass Before Trim

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is the backside of the tank, and that is where you can see what I did with the Pearl Grass trimmings. I am still working on the removal of the micro sword, and little by little I will get rid of it all. This time, the left most part had been removed:

Attached Image:

Back View

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a closer look at the new pearl grass group, with Oto and Apisto, and snails and what not . As you can see, the plants are rather short and will take a while to fill in nicely.

Pearl Grass grows fast enough to allow trimming and re-propagation on a rather frequent base, but not too fast to become a pain in the neck. Nice!

Attached Image:

New Pearl Grass Group

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Also from the backview, here is a closer look at the bolbitis. I think it is setteling in nicely by now and I see various new shoots. I only rarely now have to trim away an older shoot that gets some staghorn algae on it, nothing compared to the issues I had with the plant a few weeks back.

Also, the crypts to the right are setteling in nicely.

Attached Image:

Bolbitis and Crypts

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The last two shots are about the widows of the tank, the Apistos. They both seem to be fine and eat ok. They have been eating better though when the male was around, but it is not a lack of interest why they don't eat, it is the constant stalking of each other that distracts them too much.

Here is one peeking out from the right hill:

Attached Image:

One Apisto

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Last but not least, here is the other one in the open. I treated the tank with metro again after yesterday's water change and I will spend the next day and a half thinking if I should treat one more time.

That's it for this tank and this update, I hope you like to time travel, have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Other Female

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

This tank is really coming along nicely LF, I can't wait to see how it looks 3 months down the road, I think it'll be a stunner.

That pearl grass is one of the few plants that truely respond well to trimming their tops. The one thing I'm really enjoying about my tank right now is how nice a carpet that stuff makes by just hacking off the tops every couple weeks. Cool plant.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi LF,
In looking at your logs, and your comments about algae,
I'm having a thought or two on the causes/cures for the
problem.

We all know that algae is an opportunistic critter. By
that I mean that if it finds a niche, it takes advantage
of that niche and fills it. Now that niche can be an
over abundance of some element, say iron, or nitrogen,
or it can be a lack of some element as well. Or, it can
simply be the lack of a competitor (too few plants).

In your cases, you are adding fertilizer regularly, and
changing water regularly. But, in looking at the plants
in your pictures, specifically the close up ones of your
foreground, carpet, plants, I'm wondering about
the circulation between the leaves, and down near the
substrate. The same thought with the mosses on the drift
wood. Despite being up in the water column, they have
grown so thick, I wonder about the circulation through
the individual leaves.

I'm beginning to think that they might be
"nutrient sumps."
Places where the lack of circulation could
cause concentrations of nutrients and thus, the
growth of algae.

Just a thought. It seems to happen whenever the carpet
plant becomes too thick. Then, when it becomes unsightly,
we tear out the carpet plant and a few weeks later the
algae is back under control, or gone.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hi LF

Enjoyed watching the 5 week transition snapshots of the tank. Thanks for sharing that.

Don't know whether I should say this LF, or not. But I will & ask you to remember what an amateur I am with apistos, put that together with being being a worrier after my recents deaths and then add a grain of salt before you even start to take any notice of me. I spend a fair bit of time looking at the belly shape of my dwarfs now & I looked closely at your 2nd apisto female. When I trace along the underside of her belly from her anal fin, to me she has an ever so slight bump where her anus is. It is bearly there and is probably nothing at all - just the angle of the shot & what not. But I mention it only so that you can watch what is happening there. I's sure she is fine & I hesitated to mention, as I didn't wanted to worry you for no reason. Matty didn't mention it, and he would have spotted it if it were a problem.

Apart from that, you have a pair of really nice looking girls there.

Cheers
TW

Thanks all for the input

Matty - yeah, I hope that the tank will just keep on improving. I am glad that it gives me so little trouble and that I am able to change little bits here and there without upsetting the whole system.

Frank - I assume you are talking more about My 29G Tank, right? Your pointers are for sure correct, but I guess my issues there are related more to none or very irregular fertilization as this used to work in the past with gravel and laterite and now just doesn't fly anymore with Eco. This stuff is too good to be neglected

Robyn - good point, and ever since you described the symptoms on your Apistos I am keeping an eye open for similar issues on mine. I have to say that I have not noticed anything on the females in this tank until you pointed it out (and it really seems strange in the picture), but I guess the fact that I treat the tank now should help.

Thanks to all yet once again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

hey ingo - i just want to point out (because i'm a glass half-full kinda guy) that there is a lot more good going on with that second female than bad - clear eyes, great colouring, open, clean finnage, good red colouring of the flesh visible near the gills (highly oxygenated). i hardly think you need worry about that bump - it could be that she's hungry, has just aborted eggs, or a dozen other benign problems.

no disrespect to robyn, but i think when we worry TOO much about our babies, and treat them with kid-gloves, we actually have more troubles....

justin

Thanks Justin,

You know, I was wondering myself how the females will fare now with regards to egg production. They must have gotten used to the idea that having eggs is ok, given that the male was present.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Weekly Tank Update - Week 21

Not much has happened during this week, I am still debating with myself when and if I should get another male Apisto. I treated the tank with Metro 3 times, I think that should be enough.

Here is the tank before the water change:

Attached Image:

Just Before Water Change

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the tank after the water change. As you may notice, the hygro is still there but I trimmed it down a little (cut off the bottom). I just did not have any other plant that I could place there.

Do you have an idea what I could use in its place?

Attached Image:

After Water Change

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is the tank straight from the back. I removed some more of the micro swords on the left (added them to the 20G) and added some more Pearl Grass:

Attached Image:

Back View

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is, for the fun of it and to interest Matty in my tank, the back view in an angle.

You can see how crowded the way right side is, with the hygro being blown by the current over the micro sword group.

Attached Image:

Back Angle

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is another closer look at the Bolbitis. As you may notice, there are quite a few bubbles under the leaves. These are obviously from the water change, but during the week in the evenings I have even more bubbles there as well. Unfortunately, I think they come from the CO2 that is being blown throughout the tank and collects there.

Anyway, that's it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK,

I saw them already last week in the LFS, but they are labled Double Red. So this afternoon I went back and asked, and without me giving a hint I was informed that they are Orange (I guess Flash).

Should I treat the tank with Metro?????

Here is the male

Attached Image:

Male Apisto

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the female. Should I worry about having 3 females now? I could not resist. But that's it, all better goes well.

That's it for right now, more later.

Ingo

Attached Image:

Female Apisto

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is the last shot of the couple in the bag. As you may notice, she has lost all yellow and now has an almost white base coloration. I am sure that once she gets settled the color will come back.

Attached Image:

Apisto Couple

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Please Look At Previous Page For Weekly Tank Update

And here is a shot of her after she has been released into the QT. She was exploring the tank and the smaller male Platy actually swims onto her side once in a while and seems to make mating attempts

Attached Image:

Female I

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here she is from the side. I hope that the experts amongst you (Justin ? ) will ok her as healthy. She seemed not shy in the tank at the LFS and so far she is not shy in this tank either. But, she is smaller than the two in the 40G. Should I worry about her as the third female in that tank?

Attached Image:

Female II

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is a first look of the male after release. I have to say that now his fin coloration seems more red than it did at the LFS and in the bag. Maybe it is a double red after all?

Attached Image:

Male I

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Last shot of tonight, male from the side. Again, could the experts please tell me if they think the fish is ok?

And one more time:

Should I treat the tank with Metro???

That's it for now,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male II

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo you dog! Way to resist the urge

Thanks Mike,

Yeah, I could not resist, what can I say

I sure hope it doesn't come back to haunt me. I don't know how many additional setbacks I am willing to take with Cacs. Somehow I thought they are easier than viejitas, but they never gave me trouble (ok, having 3 males where 2 should be females is not the fish's fault )

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That's nice that they finally gave you a female along with your male. I'm not sure that I'd treat with metro or not. Since it can't hurt anything, and you already have it, why not right? They do look a bit skinny, but it could be that they just need to be fed a bit. It's nothing drastic or indicative of parasites IMO. They look pretty healthy by my eye.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks Matty for the heads up on the Apistos. I think I have seen another male/male pair of other Apistos in a different tank at the LFS as both fish looked totally alike . Well, maybe they had 2 pairs in the tank and I only saw the boys, but usually they don't do that.

So, what do you think about the 40G being able to handle 3 females and the male?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

1.) Yes, treat with metro

2.) 1m, 3f - That sounds perfect, actually - that's a real harem now Nice pick up!

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks NowherMan6

Yeah, I know that 3 is a good number, but I am wondering:

2 hills and 3 girls

That might lead to some fighting as previously both girls had fry within one week and each needed a hill for protection. So, what if that happens now with 3?

Well, maybe I should be more concerned with the health of the new pair in the first place.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

gorgeous looking pair, ingo!

as already stated, 3:1 is a great ratio FOR THE MALE - you may find a bit of bickering between the two lesser-ranked females. and, they definitely need more potential breeding spots. i always try to have one more nest than there are females. so, get those film canisters out!!! hehehe.

good luck with them all - a couple of feeds of live food if you've got it to beef them up and all should be well.

justin

Thanks Justin,

I was wondering when you will peek in

Glad to hear that you think they are ok. Now, where do I get film canisters from? I haven't bought a conventional film in quite some time.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I have a ton that I could mail to you but they smell like chemicals. I dont think I'd use them.

Maybe get one of those coconut caves and cover it in bolbitus? Just disguise it. It's more natural than matty's PVC pipe paradise...

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Back in the saddle!

Very nice LF

He still looks like an orange flash, rather than a red to me. I can see nothing that looks unhealthy, they look really nice & the male should enjoy his harem.

Re the metro. Who really knows the answer to that. Like Nowhere said, it can't hurt. I think you said the great Bensaf once said to treat apistos every 6 months as a precaution.

BTW Justin, no disrespect taken. Yes I may worry too much, but all 4 of my apistos died in short order - 3 of them with parasites (at times you could even see the tip of the worm hanging out). They weren't even in the same tank & never had been together. The 4th had suspected TB It has left me a bit nervous of them.

Cheers
TW

*Shakes fish at nowherman*

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Has someone gotten a little offended?

Anyway, no space for coconut huts in the 40G, would look somewhat out of place. I will use the Metro tonight, for 3 sessions until Friday. Then I can clean it out on Saturday with the water change.

Ingo

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OK,

Ready for your daily dose of Apisto News?

Here is the female tonight. She has colored back up quite a bit. Her finnage also looks like she is in good shape.

Attached Image:

Female Hunting For Food

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And here is the male. He seemed a little picky during feeding. He neglected almost all freeze dried brime shrimp and freeze dried bloodworms. Eventually he had eaten a few bites. I see him roaming the tank quite frequently and picking up stuff, so I guess he doesn't like what I have on the menu

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male

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Offended, Hope you didn't mean me. I am happy as larry at the moment, with about 30-40 krib fry in my tank

Hope that once your harem is joined up, you here the flipper, flapper of little fins too

All looks to be going well for you. Nice looking apistos (and tank too)

Cheers
TW

No, he meant me, shaking fish. I'm not really offended, it's all in good fun

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ingo I really regret not getting that pair myself. I must have walked past that tank a dozen times and peeked in everytime. Ah well!!! Seriously PM me for my number. Next time you're at the store, let me know. I've got friends that will take care of you. Retail prices are for the insane!

I've got friends that will take care of you

Now that sounds scary

Will they make me an offer that I can't refuse?

I will keep your connections in mind, thanks Mike. Oh - btw - I am actually fooling myself into thinking that I got this pair for free as I bought it with my store credit. The fact that I received the credit for the males that I purchased a while back (thinking they were females seems to slip my mind

Robyn - Thanks for the compliments, when can we see more about your fry and the lost fin?

Ingo

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I'm going to update the 23.7G tank now. Thanks for asking.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Your fry looks good, there must be at least 20 of them.

With regards to the new Apisto in my QT, the male makes me worried a little. He seems to be a picky eater. During the last two days he barely touched the food, maybe eating 3 bites of whatever I feed (last night was flakes). I know how it looks when a fish is sick and does this "pretend eating" in order not to be detected as sick by the other fish in the tank, but he does not do that either. He is picking "stuff" of the ground and eats it, but that is - as far as I can tell - not part of the food I add to the tank. Maybe I have so many little critters in there that he is too full to eat. Or he really does not like my offerings. I would hate to have to go to a special menu just for him.

Ingo

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Yeah, the special menu is a pain. I had to to that for my bitas. No matter how I tried to disguise the pellets or flakes (by soaking first in blood worms) they would never eat them. If one accidentally went in their mouths, they either spat it out or expelled it out their gills.

For some strange reason, my female krib is doing the same. I cannot get her to take flake or pellets. The male will take them, but not her. All the nigerian reds take pellet with no problem. These finicky eaters are a pain.

I hope you don't have to go the special menu route, but if you do, I found frozen easier than fresh. Others swear you can wean them onto pellets, by soaking the pellets or flakes in defrosted bloodworms. Maybe give it a try. Didn't work for me, but apparently worked for some others. Good luck.

Cheers
TW

My problem with food that is frozen, or even still alive, is called "my wife" . I probably would have to buy my own freezer for it (which I have been thinking about, some small mini freezer).

Ingo

EDIT: how do you feed frozen food in the first place? Do you put it in the microwave to defrost?

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Wait - you've never fed frozen food?

Well I take out the amount I am going to use for feeding and put the rest back in the freezer, then defrost in some warm water. Once thawed I like to strain it out. Along with my own concerns, I've read an article in one of the more popular fish related magazines about how the juices contain nasty fish killing bacteria sometimes, even in the major brands of frozen foods. My other problem is the amount of nutrients in that liquid which obviously goes uneaten can lead to problems, especially in the SW tanks, but also in the FW planted setups. So after I strain and rinse with tap I either put it right into the tank or put it back into some water to feed intermittently.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Wait - you've never fed frozen food?

Shocking



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Well, tetratech had at least something to say.

Sounds like a major hassle for some frozen worms there,

I will see for one more day if he eats or not.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

It's no hassle whatsoever.

You take the frozen block of whatever then place it in a plastic cup. Run some warm water into the cup. Slosh the block around until it's all broken up. Drain out the water so that only the worms/ brine shrimp/ larvae or what have you remain. Suck them up in your aquarium designated turkey baster and feed to fish.

The water is a nutrient broth that only harms WQ. Frankly, there will be enough nutrient broth coming out the rear ends of our fish friends after they gobble up all those yummy frozen foods - no more is needed!

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Back in the saddle!

It's really not hard.

I take a cube out & while still frozen cut some off, as a whole cube is far too much. I put it in one of those little measuring cups that sometimes come with fish medicines. For brine shrimp & daphnia, I don't rinse these at all. I think you would probably wash away some goodness too by doing that. I do rinse blood worms in a net first, just because I don't like red liquid that comes out. Takes about 20 - 30secs to rinse away, so it's no biggie. Incidently, before you wash the red liquid out, this is what you can soak your dry foods in, to try to wean them back onto them. Anyhow, I then add some tank water to the little cup & wait until it is fully thawed & at room temp. If you use tank water, you don't need to drain it again, as the water is safe. Plus for the next step in feeding process, I need a little water in the mix.

You could just dump it in the tank, but I have less waste if I take up a small portion of the mixture in a child's medicine dropper & release the food in controlled amounts. Once they have eaten the 3 or so pieces, I squirt out some more. Takes longer, but I'm also interacting with them & I enjoy it really. They recognise the dropper & come running when they see it being lowered into the tank. They even yank food out of the dropper. They become used to my hand & don't run from it, especially when I have to lower the dropper deep in the tank to feed fry near the bottom. So I can put my hand right up close to mum & bubs & they aren't bothered at all.

About the freezer issue. I wrap each package tightly with gladwrap (I have 3 varieties) & then they all sit inside one tupperware container of just the right size. The container is labelled. If you packed it up this way, are you sure you couldn't put it safely in the freezer?

Cheers
TW

Well, tetratech had at least something to say.

Go to Matty's planted tank log for Round II of:


Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

VS

The Self Proclaimed King of Protist Destruction








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In this corner we have.....

I like conversating...I hope nobody takes it the wrong way(especially the Protist Destructonator ) It's all in good fun right?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

It's all in good fun right?
Of course. LF and I have had a few over the 8,000 or so posts we both share.

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Actually,

I enjoy it once in a while when I am only on the sidelines of such discussions. Unsually I am right in there . And yes, of course it is all fun and games

Anyway, thanks all for the additional info on frozen food, I am sure it will come in handy. In the meantime, the male Apisto decided that he is ok with freeze dried blodworms. After having denied them once before, it was the third course that I served two evenings ago, after flakes and freeze dried tubifex (turned down, as usual). Last night he tried one flake first , but then went on to eat quite a load of bloodworms. I have to say, he is not the smartest entity in fish land. He expects the food to be exactly where I add it to the tank. If the current carries it away then he is not going after it. Lazy bum

Ingo

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Wow,

I have quite a few pictures to post, so on with the show.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 22

Not much to report, except that I continued with the gradual replacement of some of the plants.

Here is the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Last Weekend

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And here is the tank today.

As you may notice, the hygro is gone by now and the middle section had been opened a little more.

Besides the hygro, additional bushels of micro swords have been removed.

Attached Image:

Today

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Here is a closeup of the corner to the short end that housed the hygro before the makeover. As you may see, the whole bottom area is pretty dark. When the plants were lower a female Cac used to hang out there once in a while, but with this growth she didn't do this anymore.

Attached Image:

Hygro

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And here is pretty much the full short end before the changes were applied. Again, all is pretty dark back there and not a fun place to be

Attached Image:

Old Short Side

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And here is the same area after the redo. Hygro and micro swords are gone and Bylxa has been put in its place. The plants have been created by separation of the one that I had in the middle of the tank (in the unplanted section).

Attached Image:

New Short Side

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Blyxa is a very graceful plant, I think. Here is one of the plants, the one that is in the corner of the short side. It even has bubbles tonight but I don't know if they are CO2 or O bubbles

Attached Image:

Blyxa

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As I mentioned bubbles, this is how the Bolitis looks every evening. Here again, I don't know if the plant collects the CO2 bubbles that are blown around the tank or if it actually creates oxygen. In either case, it looks nice.

Attached Image:

Bolbitis

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A plant that will need some trimming rather sooner than later is the Pearl Grass in the front of the tank. Now with the left side so low it seems odd that the right side is so high with all the tall Pearl Grass there. Maybe next weekend.

Attached Image:

Pearl Grass

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Here is the only real trouble spot in the tank, the area behind the open spot in the middle of the tank. This spot seems to be the toilet of the tank and it host quite a bit of hair algae.

This shot has been taken before the cleaning and trimming.

Attached Image:

Trouble Spot

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And here is the same spot after I removed most of the hair algae. It is hard to reach.

By now it served as meeting spot for snails to have an orgy . Or maybe they just play cho-cho train.

Attached Image:

Snails

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Here is a closer look into the open spot and the anubias that is behind it. That plant was previously not visible as it was blocked by a blyxa that I removed. This anubias was pretty much dead and lost all leaves, but now it has quite a few new ones.

Attached Image:

Anubias

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Here is another shot of the full front of the tank, in an angle to hopefully show you better the improved open section.

I guess the blyxa on the right of the open area could be thinned out as well.

Attached Image:

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And here is the tank from the back head on. As you may notice, I also added a few more blyxas to the left and did not only modify the right side.

I guess you will tell me that the blyxa is too lined up, right?

Attached Image:

Back View

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On to the fish.

Here is one of the two resident Cacs. They both seem to be doing ok, although there is always a chase going on when the bossy one comes close to the other one. Interestingly, the weaker one was the one the previous male selected for mating first.

Attached Image:

Female Cac

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And here is the new female hanging out in the QT. I don't know why, but she is mostly whitish and not any longer displays any yellow. She doesn't seem ill and eats well, so I don't really understand this. Even the females in the 40G are somewhat yellowish.

Attached Image:

Female Cac

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Check Out The Loads Of Pictures On The Previous Page

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Here she is again, this time checking out if I may be having some food in my hand

She is very cute though, right?


Attached Image:

Female Again

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Here is the male now, hanging out in the front left corner of the QT. He is most of the time somewhere between the plants and looks for some food. Oh, one reason why he may not have eaten in the first few days was maybe because he was full. I found some platy fry in the filter and none in the tank. I wonder where they went ?

Attached Image:

Male Cac

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And here he is checking out the girl.

Every day I am worried that he will not make it. This would be my worst mightmare, as I would end up with 3 females and no male. But so far so good.

Attached Image:

Check Her Out

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Last but not least, here is a shot of something I have no idea on what was going on

In any case, it is one of the females in the 40G hanging with her friends, the Otos.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Strange Group

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I won't tell you that the blyxa looks too lined up anymore cause I think I know where you are going with it. It just needs some more time to fill in and it will look great. I like how this tank is evolving. It seems to be getting a bit simpler compared to right after you changed it, but not quite as simple as before you changed it from all the microswords.

I still think the one female looks a bit skinny, but as long as she's acting ok, she looks healthy otherwise.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Your male looks more colourful here, than the pic in the other log. I love the front on shot of your girl, and yes, she is very cute.

I got very excited when my blxya was 1st ready to separate into 2 plants (particularly as it shouldn't even grow in my low light) but that is probably all pretty "ho hum" & common place for you. Still, a 2nd plant for free is good. Blxya is hard to find & expensive here (I have seen it for $30 a plant in LFS).

I don't mind you blyxa lined up like that at all. In the front, I really like the opening too.

Interesting shot of the snail, plus the strange playmates in your final shot.

Cheers
TW

This tank is looking better, but there are a few things I would change.

The mound on the left with the Bolitis looks great, but the mound on the right looks alittle messy and not as defined. I still think in this type of setup you should have the two mounds very similiar and let the Bolitis be the dominant plant on both sides. Doesn't mean you can't have another species as support, but the same plant should dominate.

The Blyxa is too tall and distracts from the mounds. IMO the front foreground should be a low moss or other plant that will add some color but allow you to see the hardscape of the defined mounds.

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I really hope the male makes it for you! It is a really nice fish.. as was your last one too!

You have done a really nice job with the Anubias and ferns in this tank. I love the feel of it.

How long did it take for your African fern to take off? Mine hasn't done anything in the week or two I have had it.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

... cause I think I know where you are going with it

Well Matty, then you know more than I do . Maybe I have some vision for it in the back of my head, but I cannot pull it forward into my conscious thinking area

Yeah, I like where the tank is going as well, in particular because all can be done slowly and in simple processes. No major upset is needed to keep on going.

Robyn - You should commit a tank to grow out Blyxa only. At $30 you should be able to finance your whole hobby . Yeah, the male looks better here, that is because I post better pictures here than in the QT section .

Tetratech - complain, complain, complain . Now the nitpicking came full circle . Anyway, you are at least somewhat in sink with me. I completley agree that the right mound does not look defined. But I believe it has more to do with the tall Pearl Grass group and the plants on the right short side of the tank. Next weekend I will trim the Pearl grass there and then I will have a better idea on how defined the mound is.

I also don't know if I am into the idea of having two equal mounds, with regards to general structure (wood/rocks) and plants. Somehow I think it may make the tank a little more boring as in "when you have seen one mound then you have seen them all."

I don't think my Blyxa is all that tall . Actually, it never grew tall for me, even if I tried. Mosses on the substrate are too dangerous for me, too high of a chance to get gunk underneath and as such algae issues. Plus, let's not forget the spreading into undesired areas.

Ingo

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Wings - didn't see your entry until right now, thanks for the friendly comments.

2 weeks seems to be nothing for Bolbitis, it took quite some time for that plant to finally settle. I don't think it is really taking off yet even now. After 2 weeks I had mostly dying old leaves and I trimmed them away, the new growth was much healthier. Also, keep in mind that Bolbitis likes current.

Ingo

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Tetratech - complain, complain, complain

Don't worry you'll have a chance soon to rate my 72g revision. You better be nice

I also don't know if I am into the idea of having two equal mounds, with regards to general structure (wood/rocks) and plants.

Just for the record, I don't mean two "identical" mounds just ones that the main elements are the same but are flavored with different supporting plants.

I don't think my Blyxa is all that tall . Actually, it never grew tall for me, even if I tried.

I guess I'm still trying to get you to show us your hardscape . The original premise was mounds with those nice rocks. I don't think the height of the blyxa lends itself to that.

Moss on rocks

Moss on rocks is pretty easy to maintain. You pick up the rock trim and put it back. Am I missing something here?

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You better be nice

I will try , but I am most certain that it will look pretty good anyway.

but are flavored with different supporting plants

The problem is that there is not much space for supporting plants. The only other plants besides ferns that I know would lean themselves to be anchored on wood/rock are anubias, and as such they would be the same

The original premise was mounds with those nice rocks. I don't think the height of the blyxa lends itself to that.

Agreed, but take another look at the picture on the previous page showing the new left short side after I removed the hygro. Can you see the rocks? Once the plant mass on top of the mounds has grown some more I will leave gaps in the surrounding territory to show off these rocks.

Moss on rocks is pretty easy to maintain. You pick up the rock trim and put it back. Am I missing something here?

Maybe that the rock would block the view onto the main groups as well, just as some of the Blyxa does. Or do you mean using moss on the existing rocks there? That would be impossible as these rocks hold the wood structures in place.

Ingo

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Moss on rocks is pretty easy to maintain. You pick up the rock trim and put it back. Am I missing something here?

Remember LFs big christmas moss rocks from the 125, filled with gunk? Once bitten, twice shy...


I can certainly see where tetra is going with the bolbitus though. Especially in an apisto tank. Territories need not be just hardscape along the ground. Bolbitus is a big fern plant, and letting it grow larger from both ends into a canopy of sorts can help break up sight lines and create mid-water territories.

Remember, this is basically a species tank, being built for the apistos - it may be nice to add elements to it with them in mind and their needs and habitat. A denser look would be very good for them, it would allow them to hide when they want and show themselves when they want. I think the bolbitus can help with that. If you have Amanos first Nature Aquarium book, check out the tnak on pages 122-123 for inspiration.

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Back in the saddle!

Well OK,

I will check out that tank on the mentioned pages.

In order to stall you all on the Bolbitis issue: It still has some growing to do before I would even be able to attempt a re-settlement of parts of the plant

And it really grows slooooow. I know at some point it will just take off, but that has not happened yet.

Ingo

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And I'm sorry if that came off as pushy at all I didn't mean to tell you what to do with the tank or anything like that Just bouncing ideas etc...

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Back in the saddle!

Remember LFs big christmas moss rocks from the 125, filled with gunk? Once bitten, twice shy...

Well that was the old LF, now he's "leaner and meaner" in terms of feed and stocking. Speaking of Amano, LF what is your hesitation of adding amano/yamato shrimp to the mix. Moss and shrimp are just so good together. Not only to watch but for cleaning out the gunk. They do wonders in my 12g in which I have only 2 and 3 CRS. They also ate the monkey skull clean of any BBA tufts that were appearing. It was quite amazing. I also have about 8 in my 72g and watching them crawl along the riccia is really sweet.

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Don't worry NowherMan6, I did not think you are pushy, I just ran out of arguments

Speaking of Amano, LF what is your hesitation of adding amano/yamato shrimp to the mix

That would be called Apistos

And that for two reasons:

a) maybe the Apistos will eat the shrimp, or at least their legs, or
b) the shrimp will eat the Apisto fry/eggs

Ingo

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And that for two reasons:

a) maybe the Apistos will eat the shrimp, or at least their legs, or
b) the shrimp will eat the Apisto fry/eggs

a)Amanos are quite large and I don't have a problem in my 72g with a bosemani, apisto and dwarf cichlids. Legless shrimp

b)That I'm not sure about, but as I said before sometimes fishkeeping and algae free planted aquaria don't mix, espeically breeding fish (flower pots)

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