FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Well life isn't perfect and either is my tank. Had a few glitches the last couple of days.

1. One ballast went out on my 192 watt fixture, so I'm operating on 96 watts over the 72G.
2. My tank continues to get clouder and clouder. I'm not sure why it looks like it's either a bacterial or algae bloom. A bacterial bloom would surprise me because I'm barely feeding, not alot of fish and the tank has been only set up for about 11 days. Although I've seen very little physical algae, I fear it is an algae bloom, brought on by too much po4 and no3 in the water column.
3. One of my rummynoses died after doing a 50% wc. I think I'm going to reduce these to 30% and reduce dosing as well from now on. I don't think my plant mass has enough "suck up" power.

I'm deciding whether I want to do a 3 to 4 day blackout to clear the water as I get my lighting straightened out.

My Scapes

tetratech,

Sorry to hear that. I can't help you with the cloudiness (or could it be the substrate yet again?) but, as you know, I was investigating the next group of fish for my tank.

Of the options I came up with, namely Black Neon, Glow Light, and Rummies, the Rummy Nose Tetras are the most fragile and react the strongest when added to "unclear" water. Our tanks are cycling and certainly not clear. I think this is why he (?) died.

Rummies are supposedly way more sensitive than Cardinals and I would never add these to a new tank.

How this helps,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

When the water is supersaturated with O2 the oxygen become visible on the leaves of the plant. All plants produce oxygen so all plants are capable of pearling.Some oxygenate more then others, some are too far away from the light source. Generally fast growing stems would be the first, but there are exceptions, Java Fern which is considered a slow grower will pearl like crazy given half a chance. Low ground cover plants would not pearl too often , probably because they are so far from the light.
A heavy fish load, where there's a lot of oxygen being consumed by the livestock would reduce a tanks ability to pearl somewhat.

I doubt very much the Rummy died as a result of the WC.I've being doing these big WC's for a year now and never had a casualty, even in my Rummy stock. In fact I would say the fish enjoy the WC's they generally seem more active and willing to spawn after a big WC.
Rummies aren't that sensitive IMO, I've had some for going on 2 years now without any major issues, despite all my messing around with the tank. They are slow to acclimatise though. They don't like being moved, it takes them about 2 weeks to truly settle in to a new tank. It's not uncommon to lose a few during this period. Once that 2 week break in is complete they are fairly tough and wouldn't consider them sensitive.

They are far more reliable then any test kit. Watch those noses, if they aren't bright red there's something up. I'd trust the redness of their noses over the redness of a test kit solution anyday.

Don't understand the desire to keep reducing the nutrients. You've said yourself many time that even Amano goes true this dodgy settling in period for about 3 weeks. The secret is to stay focused and keep going. But you still want to reduce everything ?

I'm not sure what's causing the cloudiness, possibly bateria. Are you adding macros and micros on different days? One of the reasons for doing this is that if Iron is dosed with P04 it can precipitate and cause some cloudiness.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Don't understand the desire to keep reducing the nutrients. You've said yourself many time that even Amano goes true this dodgy settling in period for about 3 weeks. The secret is to stay focused and keep going. But you still want to reduce everything ?

If my tank isn't cloudy, we are not having this conversation. This is really perplexing me. I thought I had everything covered. I can't think of anything that is causing this other than the high numbers I'm getting. I am dosing macros and micros on different days. My plants look good, that's not the issue, water appearance is, which I feel is going to lead to something really bad (remember my white cloud). The Eco Complete contains alot of stuff. Maybe this is somehow reacting with the macros. The only thing I could put my finger on is high nutrients vs plant load. Bensaf, have you ever used EI in a tank like mine, where the plants weren't shoulder to shoulder from the start. I never had cloudiness issues before I started dosing po4 no3. Isn't true that the plants need very little of these, but they do need them. If my plant mass isn't there to suck up these nutrients isn't there going to be a reaction from something, bacterial bloom, algae from these left over nutrients, possibly before a water change.

tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 05-Oct-2005 23:42[/font]

My Scapes

If my tank isn't cloudy, we are not having this conversation.

Understood.

This is really perplexing me.

Perplexing me too.

I can't think of anything that is causing this other than the high numbers I'm getting.

But the last set of numbers you posted (20ppm No3, 2ppm PO4) aren't particularly high. Still in, albeit upper end, of the normal levels for a planted tank.

My plants look good, that's not the issue,

Maybe not the issue but an important clue and indicator as to what's going on.

The Eco Complete contains alot of stuff. Maybe this is somehow reacting with the macros.

This is where we have to keep cool heads and not go off on wild goose chases. EC is a popular product, used by a fair number of plant hobbyists a good proportion of whom are adding macros. Do they get reactions ? Looking at the list of ingredients, it's mostly the kind of stuff you'd find in a typical liquid fert, do you get a reaction when you add liquids ? Why not ask Seachem. Any chance you got a second corrupted batch.

The only thing I could put my finger on is high nutrients vs plant load. Bensaf, have you ever used EI in a tank like mine, where the plants weren't shoulder to shoulder from the start.

No. But bear in mind that EI is designed to dose to excess even for the heavily planted tank. Experience seems to show that the excess causes no harm. Again your numbers are not outrageously high.

I never had cloudiness issues before I started dosing po4 no3.

But many many people add this things to their tanks without cloudiness issues or reactions. So experience would say there's not a connection.

Isn't true that the plants need very little of these, but they do need them.

Well they did relatively high amounts. After Carbon the largest component of plant matter is Nitrogen. They need about 10-20ppm of N and 1-2ppm of P in the water to do well. Pretty much what you've got.

If my plant mass isn't there to suck up these nutrients isn't there going to be a reaction from something, bacterial bloom, algae from these left over nutrients,
Can't see how it could trigger a bacterial bloom, After all the bacteria produces Nitrate not consume it. A bacterial bloom occurs when there is suddenly enough available ammonia for the bacteria to break down so it increase it's mass to do the breaking down, so much so that the bacteria is now dense enough to be visible. Just can't see how Nitrate or Phosphate would trigger this.
As far algae, well it's been gone over enough times that the thought that algae need excess nutrients to suddenly appear isn't terribly logical. Plus it just doesn't sound like any type of algae I know of. If it was green water, well it would be green by now. The fact that it only appears in the evening (is that still the case?) is puzzling also, once algae is there, it's there. We all know how difficult it is to get rid of , it just doesn't pop up at night and disappear during the day.
So what are we left with ? Some kind of water chemistry reaction ? Some form of diatoms ?

I'm not trying to nag you here or prove you wrong. Just being the voice of reason to balance the voice in your head that may be telling you to do things that may not be for the best.

If you think it's a nutrient reaction well it's pretty easy to prove or dis-prove. You can reduce or stop the dosing. Wait a couple of weeks, if the cloudiness is still there well that eliminates the nutrients, right? If the cloudiness disappears that doesn't neccessarily mean it was the macros, but in order to prove it was you should be able to induce it by adding the macros back. If you can induce it, you have conclusive proof the macros were the cause. Once you can eliminate or prove the effect of macros the range of causes is reduced dramatically and you can move on to other possibilities.

I'm only advising against knee jerk reactions. You have to bear in mind any major change to the running of the tank needs at least 2-3 weeks to see the full effect.Otherwise you're shooting in the dark and making assumptions. Stability is vital.

Try the above. My own inclination would be to reduce the macros first, rather then totally eliminate them, you don't won't dying plants added to the list of problems.
Half dosage for 2-3 weeks.If cloudiness still there then stop completely, again watch for a couple of weeks. If the cloudiness goes during half dose, go back to full dose to see if it triggers it again. Being able to induce it is the only certain way to prove the cause.

If the cloudiness still persists after all this well at least we know the macros aren't the cause.

Maybe a diatom or UV filter can come into play then to see if it helps.

Lastly, you just add the Equilibrium once a week ? I seem to remember on the label it states it can cause cloudiness for a few hours. Long shot.

Apart from all that I can only offer wild guesses. The first thing that popped into my head when you said it only shows up late in the evening was oxygen ! Late in the evening for the couple of hours before lights out is when the tank is heaviest in oxygen, due to plants photosynthesis. Bacteria needs oxygen like any other organism. Wondering if that is triggering bacteria activity. After lights out oxygen levels drop as the plants switch over to Co2 production. We already know that the bacteria can only survive a few hours without oxygen so that could explain why the tank is clear the following morning. Just a theory but it was my gut instinct the first time I heard your problem. I refrained from mentioning it as I have no scientific basis for it, and I'm probably talking crap. But does this theory tie in with what you are seeing in the tank. Is the cloudiness showing up late in the photoperiod before the lights go out ? Does it disappear during the night ?

If it were this then I'd imagine it would disappear as the bacteria colony stabilises and finds an equilibrium.

Or maybe I need to stabilise and find an equilibrium

Last edited by bensaf at 06-Oct-2005 02:26

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Firstly, thanks for answering everything that was in my head.

Any chance you got a second corrupted batch.

I did test the liquid in the bags for po4 and I got a 0.25 reading. Also the tank was crystal clear for at least the first 8 days.

Lastly, you just add the Equilibrium once a week

I am not currently using Equilibrium. I know LittleFish is.

The first thing that popped into my head when you said it only shows up late in the evening was oxygen

It definitely looks clouder by end of day, but is somewhat cloudly in the morning as well.

Since I'm down a ballast, I'm goint to do a lights out for 2 days. I want to see if the tank clears. If yes, what does that tell us? After I get my lights squared away. I'm going to reduce ferts and see what happens with the reduced fert application.

BTW - I did a 50% wc yesterday and the tank looked alittle clearer, but within a few hours it appeared cloudly again.
So it's replicating very quick. Is that bacterial or algae-based. You might have noticed I wen to APC to get some opinions. Trenac posted a link to green water (don't know if you saw it) http://www.aquariaplants.com/cloudygreenwater.htm Mine definitely sounds more like an algae bloom than bacterial. I also don't know how reliable the source of the article is.

Another desperate theory. My light bulbs are about 18 months old. Could this fiqure in the mix, by given the correct wave to green water. As I said it's a desperate stretch and alittle embarrasing, afterall I am a "Fish Master"








My Scapes

Yo Fish Master ,

No need to be embarrassed as this situation seems to puzzle even the Grand Master Bensaf. And I am of no help either.

Less cloudy in the morning, more at night. This sounds to me as something is growing during the day and then dies off at night, but not completely. Seems the lights out method for 2 days should show an effect if it is bacterial or algae. At least you should have much clearer water immediately after ending this period.

I think that certain light spectra favor certain algae (or bacteria?) to grow. I also heard that “old” bulbs tend to shift in the emitted light spectrum. So maybe this is a possibility as well.

Otherwise, I have no clue

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks LittleFish

I also heard that “old” bulbs tend to shift in the emitted light spectrum
Please explain.

BTW - I have two other small tanks in the house for my kids (12 gallon, 1 wpg guppy) and a 10 gallon, newt, white cloud freaky thing) and the water is crystal clear - always. so it's definitely not my tap.

My Scapes

Well you're stretching now. Don't think it's lights. But new bulbs will tell you that.

It still sounds bacterial or a water chemistry thing to me. If it was green water algae you should have pea soup by now. That stuff comes and stays.

I saw the APC post, I think trenac mis understood the syptoms.

Did you give the new tank a good clean before setting everything up ?

If it is alage or diatoms a UV or Diatom filter will clear it up in a few hours.That's more bucks though.

Last edited by bensaf at 06-Oct-2005 10:10

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Change of plans. I decided to skip the blackout and take the high road or should I say the Bensaf Road and keep the tank going with lights (96 watts) and not dose over the next 4 or 5 days.

Here's a pic of day 12 (I think). From the pic the tank looks clear, but their definitely is a whitish, slightly green tint (algae) to the water, which worsens during the daylight hours. I don't know if this will go away even with reduced ferts.

I also have this fear from my 46 living white cloud thingy, which I think was caused by the diy co2 backing in, but it was never really proven.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Can't see anything in the photo ?!

Have you tested for ammonia ? That's a cinch for green water.

Hey Tetra have you checked this out
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=7212

Last edited by bensaf at 06-Oct-2005 10:26

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Great,

Now all you have to do is to chop down a Willow Tree

Ingo

EDIT: About the light shift-

In my own words, limited by my lack of knowledge in chemistry and physics. The gas in a PC is composed of various different gases that together form the desired temperature. The gas in the bulb gets old over time (who doesn't?) and certain components age faster than others. When this happens, the remaining gas transmitts in a different temperature. I hope that makes some sense :%).

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 06-Oct-2005 11:54

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The pic really doesn't due it justice. It's definitely not that clear and that was a morning shot of the tank.

Bensaf - I actually did stumble across that willow-based cleansing process. What's next voodoo :%). I didn't think I would have to resort to these things within the first two weeks. Amano makes it sound so easy. put 50 shrimp in here, trim here, yada, yada, yada......

LF - Thanks for the bulb info, I should have my full 192 watts back by tomorrow.

Tonite, I'll post another pic, see if it looks cloudy.
I've reduced co2 and I'm not dosing since my po4 and no3 indicators are still high enough. I did test for nh3 and got 0.25 yesterday, but I don't trust my kit. It's really old and uses that dry reagent stuff with the little spoon. Good for dosing po4.

BTW - The willow tree. Are they talking "weeping willow" because I have a huge one in my front yard. "Branches should be 1 to 2 years old" they mean "live" ones still on the tree. Oh they root, so they would have to be live.

Last edited by tetratech at 06-Oct-2005 13:35

My Scapes

Ingo,
That old gas will really get you everytime, ask the wife

, but I don't trust my kit.

Ah, you learn fast young grasshopper

Yeah, weeping willow and a fresh branch. Why not give it a try ?

Voodoo might be an idea. Imagines Tetra sticking pins in doll that looks like a 40 year old Irishman with pom poms

Sorry feeling all lightheaded today :%)

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Voodoo might be an idea. Imagines Tetra sticking pins in doll that looks like a 40 year old Irishman with pom poms

Don't give me any ideas.

I'm gonna try the willow thing. My wife is gonna be so impressed.

I'll send a pic tomorrow.

My Scapes

Just a thought about the cloudiness...

Water cannot be saturated with limitless amount of minerals in them. When they're fully saturated and something else is added, something has to go and precipitation will occur and will cloud the water until it settles down and disappear.

So, if your water is already saturated and you add your fertilisers in the morning your tank will be cloudy for a several hours. If you don't add fertilisers in the morning, it is probably something else.

…in doll that looks like a 40 year old Irishman…

Would that be your younger brother?

tetratech – you said you would post another pic last night to show us if it looks cloudier. Did it look cloudier?

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Untitled
Well, things for the analysis, I haven't added ferts now for 5 days and water is still cloudy. It looks like it has a hint of green, so I'm pretty sure it's GW.

LF
Would that be your younger brother?
Good comeback BTW - I didn't post last nite, because you couldn't tell anything from the pic, but the tank was cloudier.

O.K. Here's a pic of the tank this morning with the willow branches . I really hope this isn't some russian internet scam.

BTW - Plants continue to look good, very little if any algae (besides the GW) I've already trimmed the rotala several times. Stargrass still looking alittle stringy, but I recently trimmed and it looks fuller. Only major plant problem so far is growing java moss, it get's weighted down with so much crap, but I believe that's because it's not really growing.





tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 07-Oct-2005 08:10[/font]

My Scapes

Another pic of Day 5 vs Day 13.

Obviously biggest change is the willow teepee structure to the right. Fits right in (I couldn't find good branchy driftwood anyway, right LF)

The rotala and wisteria have been my best growers. The Rotala really has a nice pinkish hue to it. The dwarf hairgrass which you can't really see continues to spread.

I haven't done any fert dosing for about 5 days other than co2, which I've reduced because of less light. I also took nh3 reading this morning and got bascially a zero reading even with the cloudy water. Here are my numbers from today and they do make sense.

ph 6.8 - this is has risen from about 6.6 since I've reduced co2 production
kh 3 - always pretty staple between 3 and 4
po4 .5 to 1.0 - down no ferts 5 days
no3 10 ppm - down, no ferts 5 days
nh3 0 - With the couldy water.

Looks like I'm close to bottoming out on some nutrients. I will dose a smiggen (is that a word) just to stablize. Now I have nothing to fear I have willow branches in my tank. Next stop diatom filter, right Bensaf





tetratech attached this image:




Last edited by tetratech at 07-Oct-2005 11:58[/font]

My Scapes

tetratech,

I think your tank looks super. Whatever cloudy stuff you have in there, it is invisible in the pics.

Did that willow tree site also mention anything about marching around the tank and singing a particular song while doing so?

I would say you should increase your fertilizing to reach a Nitrate level of 20ppm and adjust all other ferts to that condition (phosphate 1-2ppm). It seems that fertilizing has no effect on the “cloud” and you currently risk a “bottoming-out situation” on one or the other fert that would bring on an algae outbreak.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Littlefish. The water does look clear in the pic, but trust me it's a greenish tint right now. I wish I could attach a small video(mpeg) of the tank (don't think we have that yet at FP ]:| ) The thing I don't understand is the my nh3 is zero and most will say a algae bloom is associated with high nh3.

Yes, going to start adding some no3, po4 back in. Actually my lighting situation is this. One ballast broke and no for some reason the other bulb is on going off and on. :%) Since I had one broken ballast and two bulbs that are 18 months old I decided to just purchase a new fixture (coralife dual cf 192watts from HelloLights). I decided to stick with 192 watts on the 36in fixture, because I feel the 2.7 wpg is enough. The 48in fixture would have given me 3.6 wpg. I just don't thing I need that much. I would have liked to get up to 3wpg like you. I guess I could always put another small light on top.

Last edited by tetratech at 07-Oct-2005 17:29

My Scapes

Here's a pic looking thru left side of aquarium. Now you could see the cloudiness.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Well at least the addition of Macros has been eliminated from the equation.

Still mystifying though.

Be interesting to see if the willows work. If not the next step may be a blackout or Diatom filter.

I'm choosing to retain my dignity and will not stoop to dignifying the cheap shots about my age with a response. But I will say this -

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I'm choosing to retain my dignity and will not stoop to dignifying the cheap shots about my age with a response

I'm staying out of this one.

I'm going to play devils advocate with the macros. Yes, true my no3 and po4 are currently at minimal levels, but could they have started the cloud and now it has enough to keep going.

My Scapes

Okay, I've missed something about the willows, but that's because I don't have as much time as I would like to read lately, so I mainly look at the pictures.

In any case, I would try Purigen if I were you. It does wonders to clear cloudiness from tanks and it's a relatively cheap solution, unlike a diatom filter.

I really like the look of the tank and you made me think about changing my substrate which I'm trying hard to resist because I can't be bothered going through that.

Last edited by Untitled No. 4 at 08-Oct-2005 02:08

Untitled,

Thanks for the Purigen info, might give it a try, because the next stop is a diatom filter. Purigen sounds like it should only be used short term or it will remove things the plants need as well.

If you interested in the willow story, here is the link that Bensaf originally sent to me.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=7212

Last edited by tetratech at 08-Oct-2005 07:31

My Scapes

Thanks for the link. I'll sure read it.

As for Purigen, it is especially made for planted tank exactly because it does NOT remove any nutrients that activated carbon would and so there's no problem using it in a planted tank. I've used it in mine for a long time now non-stop and I have no problems with it.

I keep saying that whenever I get to say something about Purigen, but I think it does an amazing job in clarfying the water. Even without cloudiness the results are astonishing. The only thing you do need to pay attention to is that if you use a water conditioner with amine based stress coat, you shouldn't attempt to recharge it as the process of recharging when used with amines makes it lethal for the fish. In any case, it's still cost effective as it lasts for months.

Just added it to my "fish net" at BigAlsOnline.

thanks much!

My Scapes

Update - Day 15 Pic

The tank continues to remain cloudy with GW. The sticks in the tank are willow branches which supposely have have been used successfully by othe aquarists to clear water. A thread of this procedure was originally directly to me by Bensaf. I'm going to start a thread on FP as well detailing the progress.

Anyway back to the tank:
The plants continue to grow great even now the stargrass is starting to pop after a trim. One thing I'm not crazy about is the color of the stargrass closely matches that of the wisteria and almost looks the same at a first glance. I have reduced my ferts to about 1/8 tsp no3 and 1/32 tsp po4.

Although I have GW, there is ABSOLUTELY no algae on the plants. There is some spot algae on the glass. Is this common for GW, not to have it on the plants, but in the water column only.

The fish are all doing well including the remaining rummynoses (lost one). My bristlenose does seem to be ruining some of the dwarf hairgrass by laying on top of it and moving around.

tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 09-Oct-2005 09:42[/font]

My Scapes

I'm going to play devils advocate with the macros. Yes, true my no3 and po4 are currently at minimal levels, but could they have started the cloud and now it has enough to keep going.

You just won't let up

GW will not appear on plants , it's free floating. Recipe to create = Ammonia and light.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

You just won't let up
Bensaf, let's talk man to man.
What would cause GW? The GW is feeding off something. I've never had GW in a non co2, non fert tank even one's with minimal plant mass. The things this tank has that the other ones don't are co2 and proactive nutrient addition (no3 po4). Test kits (forget the no3 one) have shown that my nutrients are not being sucked up that quickly. Probably because my plant mass is not that great. Isn't that the idea behind the willow. If I would have filled my tank with Hygro I bet I wouldn't have this situation.



My Scapes

I just had to pop in and say
(in true little fish style)

1. Hi!
2.Tetratech you tank looks great, I love the way you have it laid out.
3. The Bensaf, Little Fish, Tetratech combo makes me laugh so much it is untrue(and clearly suggests a lack of social life) but between the voodoo dolls and the willow (which I thought was a wind up) its just brilliant reading this log and Little Fish's log - which I will now go check out....




GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

GFG,

Firstly, I'm glad you see the humor in the exchange. Sometimes with the Internet it's hard to get the infliction. Without the smileys I think alot of FP would take things the wrong way.

Thanks for the tank comments, that is always good to hear, unfortunately if my tank continues to get cloudier I won't be able to see the layout soon.

In terms of social life, if you look at the average post per day by FP member (LittleFish 5.6, Bensaf 2.2, Tetratec 2.1) I think you could see who doesn't have much of a social life. ]] Just kidding LF - my wife is ready to throw in the towel.

My Scapes

LittleFish 5.6, Bensaf 2.2, Tetratec 2.1

]:|

That’s because you guys are members since forever and one cannot keep up my pace (only 4 months of membership), except if all you provide is a series of one-liners. I bet you tetratech that ever since we started our big tank projects you posted just as much as I did, if not more.

My wife doesn’t see me very often these days. If I am not working on my tank then I am staring at it, or I edit some pictures of the tank, or I create entries here.

Now, with regards to your tank:

I think it still looks very beautiful. I see that the Rotala is growing really strong and the Wisteria is spreading out nicely. The Willow branches give the tank an Asian design, almost like Bamboo. Do they help at all (maybe I should check what you have in the “specialized” thread)?

I somehow must have missed the point when you identified your cloud as green water. What made you conclude that this is what it is? I remember that in particular my 29G had a whitish cloud that didn’t go away for at least 2 weeks. How about the substrate – no chance that it is the culprit? Bensaf – look away for this question:What are your current tank parameters? Do they make any sense? What’s the ammonia, nitrate, and phosphate (in particular the last one)?

Till soon,

Ingo

EDIT: My current post count is 5.7

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 09-Oct-2005 17:50

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That’s because you guys are members since forever and one cannot keep up my pace (only 4 months of membership), except if all you provide is a series of one-liners.
Touche

29G had a whitish cloud that didn’t go away for at least 2 weeks
How did you finally get rid of it?

Over the weekend it has a very obvious greenish hue to it. I don't think it's the eco, my phosphate numbers are within line not into the stratasphere. My numbers are as follows:

ph 6.6
kh 3
no3 20ppm (hard to tell with kit)
po4 1ppm (this used to be 50 to 100 times w/old eco
nh3 0ppm (there's no nh3 feeding the bloom)
wb 5pp72g (5 Willow Branches per 72 gallons)

The only number I'm surprised about is the no3, which of course I don't know if it's accurate. You see the plant load, not tremendous, but pretty thick. I'v only dosed 1/8 tsp no3 and 1/16 tsp po4 over the last week or so since the bloom. willow hasn't rooted yet so nothing new to report.


My Scapes

wb 5pp72g (5 Willow Branches per 72 gallons)

OK lets talk mano e mano. Co2 doesn't cause GW. No3 doesn't cause GW. PO4 doesn't cause GW. Ammonia and too much light cause GW.
If it did why don't I and many many others have GW when we add these things, and not all are planted "shoulder to shoulder".
You don't have to take my word for this or anything else. You can test it all yourself.
Take your non co2 tank and add Ammonia and/or leave your lights on for too long and see how quickly the GW starts. Alternately add the No3 Po4 to that tank and see if you get GW.
Many people have suggested a black out for GW and it works. But a black out doesn't remove No3 or Po4 does it, so why does a black out get rid of GW ? Simple GW has nothing to do with NO3 or PO4 levels. Light and Ammonia.

I can understand the thinking of it "only happened when I added No3, Po4 and Co2". But it ain't always that simple. You may as well say I don't add sugar to the tank maybe that's why it has GW.
You can test and experiment to rule out or prove things. Take away the nutrients you suspect or add them and see the results.It's very very easy to do, you need to be willing to thrash a tank though, which of course, most of us don't won't to do.

BTW if I remember correctly from the original willow thread, there was a theory that the willow releases a chemical, forgotten the name, that messes up the GW, rather then it being a nutrient sucking thing.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

BTW if I remember correctly from the original willow thread, there was a theory that the willow releases a chemical, forgotten the name, that messes up the GW, rather then it being a nutrient sucking thing.

From reading most of the posts, it appears members didn't see results until the willow developed a considerable root system, suggesting the willow IMO was "sucking up" not "releasing down"

Last edited by tetratech at 10-Oct-2005 07:49

My Scapes

tetratech,

You say that the service that the willow may provide to your tank is based on a root system and that would be why you assume it is sucking it up. But, if it is the roots that suck, wouldn’t that mean that your water would have to be drawn into the substrate to achieve this effect? I doubt that.

Maybe the roots are needed because a willow needs to actively produce some chemical that is only generated when sufficient growth of the plant is given and based on nutrients in the substrate (post root growth). That means that root growth and a release of something into the water are not contradictive.

Just my thought,

Ingo

PS: If you and Bensaf are talking NOW from man to man, what level of communication did you have going before that ?

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You say that the service that the willow may provide to your tank is based on a root system and that would be why you assume it is sucking it up. But, if it is the roots that suck, wouldn’t that mean that your water would have to be drawn into the substrate to achieve this effect? I doubt that.

Good morning, how's the whether in Jersey, probably pretty crappy as it is on L.I., prefect day to talk on FP.
Anyway I'm not 100% sure I understand your response, but the roots on the willow will be sucking supposely from the water column not thru the substrate. The roots should developed all along the branch, throughout the water column.

It's kinda like the way floating plants are suppose to be good at sucking up nutrients. I've been floating some hygro in my tank (not enough) and they are developing quite an extensive root system just floating at the surface.

Last edited by tetratech at 10-Oct-2005 08:41

My Scapes

tetratech,

Got you, I didn’t know that fact (as I haven’t read the original willow thread).

And I don’t know about the weather in Jersey either as I am sitting here at work in the City, darn .

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here's a update. Pic attached is Day 15.

Bensaf
The plants really are growing great, thanks for all the advice. One thing you neglected to tell me is I would have to take the plants out of the water to see them.






tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Oh, here's another pic. Let's call it willow wisteria. Actually my tank is go green it looks like green tea with a bamboo straw.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

The plants really are growing great, thanks for all the advice.

You're welcome. That's the important thing, if the plants are doing that well the current problems will eventually die down. If you are now seeing better plant growth then you previously had you are going to have less issues then you ever had before. Guaranteed. Plants are looking great by the way, very healthy and lush looking

Once this GW thing is licked I don't think you'll have any problems.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Here's an update parameter wise on my tank:

ph 6.5
kh 2.5 (should this be a concern)
gh 5
co2 23ppm
po4 .25 - .50ppm
no3 10ppm
nh3 0ppm

Bensaf,
That link that you sent LF to about algae mentioned in another link that GW is caused by high po4, high no3 mixed in with some nh3. Wouldn't that be a condition if EI is used at startup and you didn't have enough plant mass to eat the nh3 and the tank went through a regular cycle.

I'm currently treating the GW with the willow branches and I've put a 100ml pack of Purigen in the filter. After this it's lights out.

Last edited by tetratech at 11-Oct-2005 10:52

My Scapes

tetratech,

Just a thought, you are feeding Potassium, right?

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes, I am feeding Flourish Potassium. I had a bottle before I got the dry so4. Since I got the GW I've been dosing very small amounts of no3 and po4 and that's it. There is some potassium in the no3. I'm trying to keep everything within range but on the low end.

Also, whatever I trim is now remaining in the tank as a floating plant to help with sucking up stuff.


Last edited by tetratech at 11-Oct-2005 12:41

My Scapes

Well I think I solved my cloudy water problem. Didn't get much out of the willow branches (another thread) but my water does appear to be clearing. First I used Seachem's Purigen which according to Seachem will remove what the algae bloom is being supported by (nitrogenous organic waste). Now this removes the support system but won't neccearily remove the current bloom, although you would hope that with the support system gone the plants, etc would do the rest. Well this might have happened eventually but I really had all the green tea I could handle (I'm really java kinda guy), so then after talking with Seachem tech support they recommended (what a surprise) another seachem product called Clarity. Now clarity actually binds and clumps the current bloom into particles big enough for your filter to trap. Unfortunately I went to all my crappy lfs and of course non of them had Seachem's Clarity, so I bought a product from Hagen calle P Clear, which sounded like the same thing. So I dumped it in and it looks like it's working pretty good 2 hours later. I'll know in the morning if it did the job. Here's a link to it in action.

http://www.hagen.com/img/aquatic/addinfo/pclear-demo.ppt

My Scapes

tetratech,

Great that you seem to have found a solution to your problem. Any idea about possible side effects (besides clean water )?

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Any idea about possible side effects
Don't even say it LF. I woke this morning to a crytal clear tank. I almost cried. Here are a few new pics:

Day 18

tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Pic of new foreground plant I added to right front (Lobelia Cardinalis) I don't know much about this plant, but I saw it in my lfs and bought it. Not sure if it fits in well with scape. Might look different once it starts to grow new leaves. Can you spot the albino BN?



tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 13-Oct-2005 10:34[/font]

My Scapes

Close up shot of mid right showing signs of life on java moss.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Finally a pic from the side showing clear water.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Oops, one more, close up of the main grouping.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Congratulations...

Now only Little Fish's problems need to be solved.

Untitled No. 4.
Been thinking about you because you recommended the Purigen to me. It acted as the first punch against the bloom. I think I'm going to keep it in my cansister as long as it doesn't affect the plants.

My Scapes

In that case you're going to keep it indefinitely... I've had it in both of my tanks for many months now and I don't have anything to say about it but compliments.

After thinking about it a bit, I thought that you problem might have been similar to something I had a while ago. I had a really bad protein film on my surface for a couple of weeks and it was so thick that algae started growing on it and it looked like an algae film instead... Perhaps your problem was just a case of cloudiness (from the substrate perhaps?) that allowed algae to grow on it rather than an actual algae problem. This is just an assumption, of course, I'm not scientist and although find the scientific side intriguind, I prefer concentrating on growing plants.

If I can still back Bensaf and try to convince you to keep up your macro dosing and even raise the doses a little bit you will probably see great results. I usually read everything but don't post that much as Bensaf always says it all and better than I could.

On a side note, I really like your tank. I've been thinking for a while now about getting a new tank myself and starting from scratch with the what I know now and didn't know before. My tank, although alright in my opinion, is a patchwork. I've added a tube here, a tube there and changed it so much the makers wouldn't recognise it anymore, but I feel that I could do better if I do everything right from the beginning. In any case, it was your tank that started the latest itch and I plan on getting a black substrate as well seeing how well it works with the greens of the plants. I also really like this dark outer-space look and plan on copying it to a certain extent.

Last edited by Untitled No. 4 at 13-Oct-2005 16:10

You Lucky Sun of a Gun

Well, although I am happy for you, I am jealous as well. Why can’t I seem to find my cure?

For real, I think it is great that you finally can look at your fish. Now you can focus on the tasks ahead .

What are you planning to do next anyway?

Stay Tea Free,

Ingo

PS: I will write an update to my tank events later (but nothing like your news, so don’ get excited)

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi LF,

Actually I was at a good lfs tonite and was really looking around to decide what the big school of fish is going to be in my tank. I don't know if I want to go with cardinals, their just so unpredictable. I did observe a few fish I really liked but I decided to wait being that the tank is only a few weeks old. The lfs had a nice supply of what they had labeled as penquin pencil fish and and red/coral pencil. Here's a few pics of what I mean.





tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

And these:



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

The Penguins I was told from the LFS owner (very honest) are skittish so I didn't want to take a chance. I think they were 6 for $15 and the Red Pencil were 2 for $12 (very expensive)

My Scapes

Wow, they look nice.

I love the red one ( $$$ ).

Are pencilfish supposed to be good schoolers? If not, how would it look if you have a lot of the same fish just hanging out all over the place?

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I believe pencilfish are good schoolers based on the conditions of the water. Maybe Bensaf knows, I think he has some. They also had I believe "Beckman" pencil fish as well for a more reasonible price. They had alot alot of rainbow fish as well, but I'm really looking to decide on the big school. The penguins would make a very striking shot in the tank if I got a big school. Anyway after all that I ended up buying for otos to add to the three I have in the tank. No problems yet.

My Scapes

Those Red Corals are real eye candy. Absolute beauts.

I do have 10 Beckford Pencilfish. Great fish, highly reccomended. They are not the tightest schoolers in the world.But unlike a lot of other Tetras (present company excluded ) they don't just sit around the middle of the tank. They are ideal for a planted tank. They are very active and love interacting with plants. They'll attack any and all algae they come across, although it's usually an excercise in futility on their part, they are way too small to make any kind of dent in a serious algae problem.
I don't find them shy or skittish at all, quite the opposite. Fascinating to watch. They form a very distinct social group and they will battle and display for a while until an alpha male is chosen. He will be easy to spot as he gets bigger and more colorful then the others. After that a very very peaceful fish.
Good looking too. They will really color up in a planted tank, with gold , black, brown colors and very bright flashes of red and white which you may not see in the store but will develop in a good tank quickly. On the occasions when they do decide to school tightly and go on a group tour of the tank they are an awesome sight.
For me they are a "must have" in planted tank. It's a bit like having a flock of humming birds tending to your tank.

Penquins, I've never had but they are easily available in stores here. Never thought much of them. They seem to just sit there and float. Apart from the funny 45 degree angle they swim at I can't see much of interest about them. I've heard they can be a bit on the nippy side.

Black Neons are a good bet too. Very attractive fish. Bigger and much tighter schoolers then the normal Neon.

I've seen a lot of Lemon Tetras pop here recently and they've got my eye. Pretty enough, but seem really tight schooling and pretty active.Might give them a try.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

One of my Pencils !

bensaf attached this image:

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Wow. Just wow. The only complaint I have is that the lobelia looks rather...odd in it's current placement.

Bensaf,

The coral pencil really is as you said "eye candy" in a way though they look alittle like cherry barbs. The beckfords aren't exactly hurting in the looks department, but it sounds like the schooling is sporadic, but I definitely want some in the tank especially after seeing your photo and description. As far as the big school I'm looking for, I'd like to go with the black neons, but for some reason I think a bigger school of smaller tetras would be more of a WOW factor than a smaller school of bigger tetras like the black neon.

Cup,
Thanks for the tank compliments, your right I kinda just put the lobelia there. Not sure it fits, so I'll probably more it or take it out. It was a spur of the moment purchase. I think the plant is used to pave "streets" with it in aquascaping.



My Scapes

Somehow I managed to miss all the posts on the previous page.

Green Water gone !!!!!

Musta been the NH3 which the purigen removed.

Great looking tank

Love Lobelia. I think it'll look good in the spot once it grows a bit. The leaf shape is a nice contrast to the Wisteria. It looks like emmersed growth, so it shouldn't brighten up and make more of a "statement" as time passes.

Congratulations

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Tetratech,

I think you should get a nice school of those red pencilfish even though they're pricey. They look like a redder version of nannostomus trifasciatus (three-lined pencilfish), which, according to the Baensch Atlas, "many hobbyists consider this the finest of the genus". I've never seen them IRL here, so must be quite rare. I have its cousin, nannostomus marginatus (dwarf pencilfish), and I love them! Very colorful, especially against dark substrate.

Those hockey stick tetras get quite big (I've seen some that are at least 3" long) - definitely bigger than the black neons. Also I don't think they would make as striking a contrast against a dark substrate vs. say cardinals, glowlights, or espei rasboras.

-P

Bensaf,
Thanks, not a hint of green (LF look away) and the water is looking really polished from the purigen.

Interesting thing with the Lobelia my bolivian ram is acting really funny with it. The ram has been covering the plant with the substrate. I've never seen it do this before. I read that some say this plant excretes toxins into the water. Have you ever heard this?



My Scapes

Maybe the Ram doesn’t like its color

I am glad that you don’t have any green water anymore. So what is your current fertilizer routine?

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Good one LF,

I'm really not dosing alot:

I've been adding 1/4 no3 and 1/16 po4 twice a week.
I've been doing 5ml traces once a week.
I haven't added the potassium at all. Figured I'm getting some anyway.

Also the eco contains alot of stuff.


tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Here's another fish I saw a couple of weeks ago, but obviously I wasn't ready for them. Looks like they throw off some flourscent color. Has anyone kept emperor tetras? There are several different species (purpule, black)



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Tetra,

The latin name for Rams is Microphagus (sp?) which roughly translated means little earth mover. It's normal for Rams to decide to poke around and decide to re-arrange you substrate. Maybe he's looking for a pal. Get him a girlfriend, there more fun in groups. Even a couple of males (which I think I have) are fun, they bicker and squabble once in a while but nothing major, usually they hang out together. Maybe have a total of 3 , with the occassional bicker and squabble they'll be just like us

I've had the Purple emperors in the past. Nice fish, they color up beautifully given time, pretty active , don't really school though.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

I did not know that. Reason I was suprised is that I've had this ram for about a year and never saw it move the earth much, just a little when looking for food. I was going to ask you how many you have together. Here's a pic where it seems to have dug a hole behind the Lobelia






tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

I think they noramlly dig holes when they feel like breeding. Maybe he ....err....needs a cold shower

They seem quite social, I'd get him a friend , if you could get a female would be great, but as I said both my males seem to get on just fine. They are certainly far less territorial then the Blue Rams I used to have. They would have there own definate areas of the tank. The 2 Bolivians spend 90% of their time togather at the front of the tank. The only real squabble is at feeding , even then it's jus a push or two, no nipping or chasing. The Blues would chase one another all over.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I love both rams and have both but Bolivian rams, due to their size, can be more destructive for plants if they want to. which is when they breed. My couple, especially the male, uprooted all the Hemianthus "Cuba" in my tank, and then dug so many pits that my tank looked like London in the blitzkrieg. Although they bred only in one corner of the tank they made sure that all of it was uprooted, even bits at the other end of the tank. As much as I love them, I love(d) my Hemianthus as well so I moved them to the other tank where there are no small plants to attack and where I don't really care how much digging they do (which is a lot). So if you want to get your fish a friend, you might want to avoid getting a female. If you do get a female put some small slates in your tank which will minimise their digging in case they do want to breed as they prefer spawning on slates. Blue rams, even when spawning can't wreak as much havoc just because they're smaller.

Mind you, those fish are full of personality and each have a different one, so yours might not be anything like mine or like Bensaf's.

my tank looked like London in the blitzkrieg

I also prefer the Germans but the pair I bought didn't make it and died before I could move them into the big tank .

The Bolivians are quite a bit hardier and more forgiving when the water parameters are not optimal. I might just switch to them in a while. But I will wait with that until tetratech can send us pictures from his tank after a "bombardment" .

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo,

I think that the number of the pits they dig and their depth depends mostly on how threatened they feel by other fish. In the tank where they are now they're only with two other fish who know better than to mess with them, so they only dug two pits and they weren't that deep. When they were in my bigger tank they were with cories and shrimps so they prepare several quite large pits and transferred the fry between those pits at least twice a day. The pits wouldn't have bothered me too much, but the destruction of the Hemianthus did as it was not an easy plant to get, and then not an easy plant to grow and then they came and declared war on it. I've collected the bigger bits (it's a very small plant) and replanted them, but it will take ages for it to make any difference, and by that time I hope to start with a new tank.

Tetratech, about the Eco Complete -- what size is it? Is it more like sand or more like gravel? I want to have sand in my next tank and if it is more like sand I will definitely use it as per Frank's five reasons for using Eco complete.

Untitled:
After all this talk about digging I guess I'll stick with the males. I don't want them wrecking the joint. As far as the eco and the grain size, that's an interesting question. Eco is has varied grain size and is suppose to automatically segregate in 2 layers, with the smaller grains on the bottom. But the latest batches I got most of it looked like sand size and goes up my python when I vac. If you want black sand I would go with the Tahitan Moon Sand from the same company (Carib-Sea)

LF:
tetratech can send us pictures from his tank after a "bombardment
Actually don't think my tank is all that bliss:
I have one ram a digging, two bristlenose hairgrassing and 3 pieces of alga on the back glass.

Last edited by tetratech at 15-Oct-2005 07:02

My Scapes

A couple of developments today. I went to Aquarium Adventure (LF knows the place) and they really had some nice fish. Bolivian rams, chocolate cichlids, keyhole cichlids, beckford pencils, another more elongated pencil (maybe one line),apistogrammas, german rams, black neons.

I didn't love the way the bolivians looked and I was running out of time so I just played it save and picked up 3 beckford pencils and 5 black neons. The black neons were in a tank with a black background and black gravel and the blue line really looked great, so this could become my main school. I'll see how the 5 do. The beckfords look good although they actually look like my otos at first glance. I liked the chocolate cichlid but didn't know enough about them as well as the keyhole which I know gets about 6".

The surprising development (not a good one) is that my tank has a slight haze to it again, which I know will eventually turn green. Now I of course can't prove this but the tank was clear this morning and I dose my macros this morning.

Well maybe the willow will take care of it. See update in that thread.
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/65099.html?200510151215

My Scapes