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Ah yes, but how many will fit in the ~65 gallon 48X18 tank I picked up last night...? Alas, that's for a different log...

Nowher hits back hard. Fresh off his success with his nano Nowher goes big. What kind of tank is the 65g

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It's an acrylic from glasscages. I was thinking earlier of doing an open top "Bensaf" type of tank deal, but crunching numbers the price of the tank+shipping wasn't worth it, it was just way too much for me to pay for a tank. This one has black bracing on it like an all-glass, but like I said, it's acrylic - so the possible scratch factor is there, but on the other hand it's very solid, very clean, very clear and the front corners are rounded so there's no messy silicone or anything. Shipping by UPS ground was 30 bucks. Altogether I paid less for this than a new 46 bowfront and the dimensions are great IMO - 48X18X17 (a little over). The footprint of a 75g, just shorter.

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Back in the saddle!

Sounds like a great deal. I've seen that website.
You could get scratches out of acrylic, but it's a pain.


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Nothing more to say about tetratech's tank right now,

But glad to read that NowherMan6 is back in the "bigger" tank business. Can't wait to write my comments into the corresponding log then, just to mess with his mind - of course .

Congrats on the new tank

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I was looking for a pic of my bolivian cause I don't remember how old it is and I came across my 46g. This was one of my first attempts at scaping and there's my bolivan ram (in front of the moss covered DW). The pic is from 3/05. So I've had hime at least a year and a half.

Can anyone say Hygro? Robyn BTW the black top that LF hates is the canopy I was talking about, might get it for my 72g. On this tank it's a bit high, but it does make the tank look built-in and it does make the tank easier to see since the only light you see is in the aquarium.


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Can you say Angelfish? Every time someone asks, can I put a pair of angels in a 29 gallon tank, post this picture.

As for your ram, he has to be at least 2 then, right? That's getting "up there" in years for a ram...

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Back in the saddle!

Can you say Angelfish? Every time someone asks, can I put a pair of angels in a 29 gallon tank, post this picture.

I've actually done that a few times and this of course is a 46g. This pic is I believe shows the Angelfish even older and bigger. Look how cramped he looks?



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Anyway some nights the tank just has a little extra something and tonite was one of those nites.

The problem with planted tanks is they they only look the height of their potential about 5% of the time. Especially those with stems.

You trim one group and another looks perfect, by the time the trimmed group is back to looking it's best the other group has now grown too tall It's on those rare moments when all the plants have reached just the right height and fullness at the same time that you get those magic moments. Within a day or two, one or more of the groups has got just a bit too tall and the mgic moment is gone.

Part of the joy and frustrating at the same time

I have to agree with Ingo, I've said it before, it is a bit like a still life and a bit cold. Almost too pretty.

Part of it may be the fish. Well for starters you can rarely see any in your photos. Cards and Neons are attractive but they bore the hell outta me. They just seem to sit there.

Strange looking at the old photos, while obviously your growing and 'scaping skills have increased dramatically, the old tanks did seem to have more life. The hardscape was more prominent, the plants a bit more ragged and natural looking.

Still love the tank. But you know already my tastes run a little different, I tend to overdo things. I focus on very small areas and build around them.

I suspect the photos still aren't doing full justice. I know I've never managed to take a single photo of my own tanks that are a fair representation of what the tank looks and "feels" like in reality.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I know I've never managed to take a single photo of my own tanks that are a fair representation of what the tank looks and "feels" like in reality

That is so true. And on top of it, I believe on a photo other people cannot see what the person sees who made the picture, who knows the ins and outs of the tank, who has seen the tank from various angles and in 3D. That sometimes leads to confusion as the photographer wonders why others cannot detect the beauty/issue that he/she wants to convey.

Tetratech - I agree, you have to keep that angel shot handy. I occasionally toyed with the idea of angels for one or the other of my tanks, but this shot straightened me out again. Thanks

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Bensaf, LF,

So heard to please!
Let's see "too pretty" "still life" Well sounds like art to me.

I find when the mid-center area of my tank is more overgrown with wistera or stargrass the tank takes on a more layed "messy" natural look, right now it's pretty clean cut but I'm enjoying better riccia growth. Goes back to can't be everything to all plants, fish and critics. Unfortunately as you both pointed out pics don't usually commnicate all the intricates that are present.

I bet there are a few things you didn't notice, for example, if you look from right to left in the pic, starting with the jungle of wisteria notice how the fullness breaks up alittle and then there are a few pieces that find their way to the mid foreground. I bet you didn't notice that in the first look. Another thing the rotala is a mid-ground plant. It is dead center from front to back partially in front of the stargras grouping.

The problem with planted tanks is they they only look the height of their potential about 5% of the time. Especially those with stems.

This is true kinda.
The other day my wife got on my case because she can't believe how much I mess with my tank. I'm lucky I work from home alot (actually not so lucky, because so does th wife ) and I realized she was right. I noticed that when I'm able to cut a stem here and cut a stem there. I could keep the tank in pretty good shape without doing a major trim. I could also catch things before they become a bigger problem, I don't thing LF has that ability and he has a bigger tank. The rotala is a perfect example. I probably trim a stem or two every other day. I also think constant trimming is really good. I believe the plants develop better growth and thus keep the water cleaner and crisper - Tetratech Out

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Can anyone say Hygro?

Sorry I am a bit behind but have a peek at my tank.....hygro city!

I completly understand the life in the pictures talk. When I take pictures of my tanks I can never really show off anything that might happens to look nice on the given day I get a camera in my hands. You guys take much better pictures than I do and I am sure that if I were to see your tanks in real life I would be twice as interesting in them.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Well it's been about 7 weeks since I bought my blues rams. Had a little scare about a week a go with the male blue and too much co2, but both seem fine. After that incident the female has been picking on the male, but now they seem to be following each other around again. Could it be that the male was weakened and the female picked up on that.

Here's a current pic of the male, notice the solid black side spot with new blue dots in it:



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And now the female. Notice the black spot has some blue dots in it. I was told this was the easiest way to tell male from female.



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Robyn BTW the black top that LF hates is the canopy I was talking about

Thanks Tetratech. Just crop the canopy out of the pic & LF will never know it's there.

BTW, I like your "still life" look

My tanks all have a similar canopy (more sloped/rounded though) as they came with the tank & the lights are built into the canopy.

Cheers
TW

Bensaf,

We must have offended tetratech seriously, have you taken a look at his Avatar?

- Now that is a still live

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yep I see the Av.

Unfortunately I think it only serves to prove our point

Well, we all have the wife issues (as no doubt Wings is discovering!). I think that for me it's not so much the amount of time as the timing itself. Coming and the first thing you do is check the the Co2, check for pearling, count the fish etc and THEN say hello to your wife is not a good thing Only thing worse is remembering to say hi to the wife first but then she catches that your eyes are on the tank while you kiss hello

I tend to be like tetra too, I prefer a 10 min tidy on a daily basis rather then one big weekly trim. Although I'm now down to only 4 species of stem plant, all pretty easy to take care of, and this certainly makes things easier. It also keeps the "look" longer.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Draw this:





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There's a challenge. Nice shot tetratech

Cheers
TW

Ha! I told ya...

Nice shot, although the white balance has taken away some of the reds of the middle plants. Very nice though

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Back in the saddle!

Well, we all have the wife issues (as no doubt Wings is discovering!). I think that for me it's not so much the amount of time as the timing itself. Coming and the first thing you do is check the the Co2, check for pearling, count the fish etc and THEN say hello to your wife is not a good thing Only thing worse is remembering to say hi to the wife first but then she catches that your eyes are on the tank while you kiss hello

Well you see......I get home and I normaly see my tank before my wife. She is up stairs doing her online homework while my tank is right before my eyes. It is not my fault it got to me first!

Nice shot tetra. I love how you jump up to the challenge of these guys! Was your light on high for the picture or half wattage? It seems a little dark but I think it is because of what Nowher brought up.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

although the white balance has taken away some of the reds of the middle plants

- I think we simply cannot let tetratech have his 15 minutes of fame without finding something to criticize.

But really, now we can see some motion, and some fishies as well, its getting better and better

Your tank background is some self stick foil, right tetratech? What would it take to remove it and to place it back on? Just out of curiosity and not because I think it would be better, but I am wondering how this scape would look with a white or very light blue background. Or even something with a light red tone.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ha! I told ya...

Yes you were right Nowher, when you said low and below I thought about those Amano shots.

Yes the color got sapped, I'm ont a pro photography, but shot needs more light and a faster shutter.

LF,
The background is removable. It's been put on with vasoline, but I don't think I want to go there.

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A little shocker today, I woke up to a dead Bosemani. I was really shocked. I saw no problems with the fish just the other day. All other fish are fine. This is the first fish I could remember losing since that little gourami many months ago.

EDIT: It seemed like the one that died was the weaker male (color, slighly smaller) Could this have been the cause.

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It seemed like the one that died was the weaker male (color, slighly smaller) Could this have been the cause

In itself, I would say no. When one has more than one fish of one kind then one will always be the weaker one.

A few questions:
- Have the rainbows been fighting with each other often?
- Has the female Ram been fighting with him?

The only other thing I can think of, assuming that it was not an illness, would be that 2 fish of a schooling type simply doesn't work out that well.

Sorry about the loss tetratech,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The only other thing I can think of, assuming that it was not an illness, would be that 2 fish of a schooling type simply doesn't work out that well.

Well the two fish during certain times were always doing their "diplay dance" for each other. Same way the pencils do it, but with the pencils I have 2 males and 3 females.

I think it's also an issue of too many fish.
stuff happens, if you know what I mean.

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Holy Haircut



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indeed... any reason for the buzz cut? Do you have a scape change in mind?

I think it's also an issue of too many fish.

I still can't see how you have "too many" fish. I know there's a correlation between easy to care for tanks and low fish load, but you don't really have that much in there. Cardinals, pencils, two bosemanis, a few otos and 4 rams is nothing for a 72 gallon tank. I just want to know how Amano has his tanks set up for a year or so with 85 espei or hengali, 10-15 otos, tons of shrimp and 10 rosy barbs in a 65 gallon tank and everything is fine in terms of fish health and algae. I know part of it is that he doesn't use a ton of light necessarily so that helps, but he doesnt't exactly always stock lightly when it comes to his schooling fish, and that's doing a normal 50% weekly water change schedule. I'm only using him as an example because I have the book open in front of me, but there are others who do it as well.

I think it may just be that stuff happens, sometimes they just die.

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Back in the saddle!

Sorry to here about your Rainbow. I lost one of mine yesterday. I think my Convicts kicked there butt. I am really tworn right now on what to do with that tank.

As for the haircut or should I say buzz cut. It actually looks pretty good still. Much like the picture you posted a while back with the top of yout tank chopped off. It also seems to add a lot of life to your tank being there are quite a few fish in sight now from the picture.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I still can't see how you have "too many" fish

I'm not suggesting that the fish died because of overcrowding but let's just say more "stuff" happens when you have more fish in the tank.

When you see amanos tanks how do you know he's not losing 10 of 80 schooling fish over the course of a year?

Speaking of Amano, check out this shrimp (bad pic) she's loaded with eggs. Sorry I'm not setting up a brackish tank for the fry

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I will drop off a 20L this weekend and some salt if you give me some baby shrimp!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

will drop off a 20L this weekend and some salt if you give me some baby shrimp!

BTW - Sorry to hear about your Bosemani as well. Very strange, cause the fish was eating and acting normal the day before.

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Same thing with mine. The only difference between mine and yours is I have a nasty set of cichlids in the tank with mine that happen to have fry.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

When you see amanos tanks how do you know he's not losing 10 of 80 schooling fish over the course of a year?

It's possible of course, but he's usually good about telling when that sort of thing happens. I know he's killed off livestock plenty of times with too much CO2.

Congrats on the gravid Amano I bet you'd need a lot of experience to properly breed them - raise the adults in FW, transfer them to salt or brackish to rbeed, then slowly bring the young back to FW. Are they all wild caught?

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Back in the saddle!

I bet you'd need a lot of experience to properly breed them - raise the adults in FW, transfer them to salt or brackish to rbeed, then slowly bring the young back to FW. Are they all wild caught?

Sounds like 3 tanks just to breed some shrimp.
Not sure about the wild-caught thing.

Anyway, here's a center pic of my tank one day after every single stem in the pic was trimmed.



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Stargrass just grows to damn fast, but when it's healthy it's tough to beat:



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It gets quite tricky playing with different growth rate plants. In my tank right now the Sunset Hygro is trying to gro a cross the top of the tank. I like to keep the stuff taller but then one day durning the week it shoots up on me and the tank looks messy.

Were you playing camera tricks with the last full shot picture? (fan on the tank?) I think I see a slight ripple!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

It's been a while so here's a current pic:



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Beautiful as ever.

I'm going to copy you with the riccia - sorry, hope you don't mind. I've got the hair nets ready & waiting for the arrival, by mail, of 15cm square of riccia (a recent ebay find) Can't find the stuff in a LFS or online here. Hoping it's there when I get home from work, so I can combine the planting with tonight's water change.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Robyn,

Please knock yourself out with the ricca. No two tanks are alike so it will be interesting to see it in yours. If you didn't notice from the first pick you'll notice that the riccia has left my foreground and now is part of my main mound area. I removed alot of wisteria to fit it in.



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Here's an earlier shot (one week) before I left for about 5 days. Notice the rock that the riccia is on is more exposed and the plants have much better color. The first full shot I hadn't dosed in 5 days.



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Here's a closer shot of the riccia covered rock:
LF, notice some BBA on the DW. See I have algae too.



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An even closer shot. Here you could clearly see pearling (no water change in 9 days) and some of the hairnet that is holding the riccia in place.



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Now that's a tank that's devloping real nice.

The re-arrangement of the rocks and riccia is fantastic.

Suddenly it's a tank with lots of interest (without being fussy or distracting) and life. Brighter pics too !

You know have different levels and depth that was lacking before. Great great job

You can dump the still life avatar now.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Well thank you Sir!

I had a feeling you would like it. I tried to make it more "random" with some wisteria just growing loosely across the midground and having it mix with the other plants. You might have also noticed the Blyxa coverage has expanded and is slightly more random occupying different levels.

You can dump the still life avatar now.

Oh good, I was getting bored looking at it.

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Now that is just wonderful

Was that the reason you didn't update your log in the last week or two? If so, well done, the surpirse is truely a good one.

I am with Bensaf, depth and the whole nine yards, excellent.

But, I wouldn't be myself if I would not have a work of caution:

You have greatly reduced your wisteria farm, the one plant I claim to be responsible for your extreme stability with regards to algae. Have a keen eye on the developing tank, just to make sure that it stays stable. And, Riccia, IMHO, has one disadvantage, it hides algae very well in its lower regions. I know that you perform regular trimmings, so this may not apply to you.

Besides that, BRAVO

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Is it just me or did you add a larger riccia rock to both sides of the mound?

I really like the new look. It creates a slightly more wild look to your tank. A good change from the still life, clean cut scape.



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Was that the reason you didn't update your log in the last week or two? If so, well done, the surpirse is truely a good one.

Well I timed the "refresh" a few days before I left so I would enjoy about a weeks of growth when I returned (a week with no ferts anyway)

You have greatly reduced your wisteria farm, the one plant I claim to be responsible for your extreme stability with regards to algae

Yes I did think of that, but I had already taken out every wisteria stem prior to the redo in about 3 phases. The lower stems that were being crushed from 10 months of horziontial growth were looking pretty ratty. There's still alot of wisteria in there and the tank is that much more mature. So I'll keep my fingers crossed. The riccia will definitely be more maintenance than the wisteria that I was able to get away with clipping the tops for 10 months.

Is it just me or did you add a larger riccia rock to both sides of the mound?

If it wasn't clear from the photos there is a large rock deep-midground on both sides of the mound. The rocks were positioned to angle up toward the mound keeping the effect.





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Aw, no more riccia foreground? Well, i guess this new gorgeous set up will have to do...

Really well done. Your tank has a different feel to it that's been hard to pin down. I think it reminds me a lot of a tropical island, with the wisteria acting like big palm trees.

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Back in the saddle!

The new look is really nice, but then I always loved the old look too

I saw you say in LF's log that your pH is under 6 in the evening. Do you know what it is in the morning, before C02 turns back on?

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

My best guess is between 5.8 and 6.0 at lights out and between 6.4 and 6.6 at lights on.



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Current pic of large riccia covered stone inbetween some foreground and "background wisteria. The stone is about the size of my head, believe me that's pretty big.

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I found these rocks in PA last weekend. They look alot like petrified wood so I grabbed a few. I was going to use the acid test on them. I don't have any muratic acid, but I heard you can use PH down (Sodium Biphosphate). Has anyone tried this.



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I have heard to use Vinager. If it bubbles then you shouldn't use it because it will raise your Ph, Kh and/or GH?

Isn't it fun to go out and pick up rocks and not pay big bucks /pound!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Sorry I'm late, but ooohh...aaahhhh.

Looks great as always Tetra. I particularly like how the wisteria wraps around the new rock on the right. It makes the tank look really deep front to back.

And I'm not sure there is a rock out there as big as your head with all this kneeling and grovelling over your tank:.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks for the tank comments and this

And I'm not sure there is a rock out there as big as your head with all this kneeling and grovelling over your tank

:

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Ahhh I crack myself up.....but you had to expect it, right?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

A couple of shots. I added more riccia to the left and right corner foregrounds. I feel the Blyxa is more "incorporated into the tank instead of just in the corners.

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Here's a shot showing the bigger riccia stone with pretty good growth. Also my largest rummynose. This guy has been with me along time, surviving the brewery.

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tetratech,

Interesting tank shots, in particular the first one. Reason: when I see your other full shots they never contain the surroundings (I guess you took this one because of Matty's crocket shot requests ). In this shot, your tank seems much smaller than in the others, even smaller than it really is. I wonder why, no idea!

BTW, I was on your island for the day (mother-in-law) and on my way back stopped at your fish store. Not much there, the wood wasn't all that good and I found out (sales person told me) that they carry Apistos only maybe one group in 4 months (and she bought the last group of your Apistos). Interesting. Plants where in pretty bad shape too, lots of algae - in particular BGA.

I assume the reason for the bad stock is the fact that today is the last day of their anniversary sale, with some fish up to 40% off, wood 25% off, and what not.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I was on your island for the day (mother-in-law) and on my way back stopped at your fish store. Not much there, the wood wasn't all that good and I found out (sales person told me) that they carry Apistos only maybe one group in 4 months (and she bought the last group of your Apistos). Interesting. Plants where in pretty bad shape too, lots of algae - in particular BGA.

You have to hit it at the right time for plants. Those plants are pretty much mush if you don't get there within 5 days of delivery. I don't get those marineland tank displays. They put this MH light right in the middle where the three joined tanks met. It sucks and it's designed for hugh turnover of plants.

The Apistos are hidden in a large endcap tank in the back of the store (Bad idea) They have usually 4 or 5 varieties. Same thing as plants, you have to hit it right, but you are right the sale probably has something to do with it. They really use the store to get highend custom installs. Without the installs the store probably wouldn't make it.


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Yes, I agree, these tanks for the plants don't seem to work too well.

They have the Apistos somewhere else?
Do you think the sales person would have known about this? She seemed very knowledgable as she tried to explain a mother and her young son that 3 sharks (customer didn't know which ones) and one cory are more than enough in a 10G . Even after repeated warnings from this sales person, all answered by the woman with "That's OK", she bought another fish anyway (first choice was one clown loach, I don't know what she got in the end). That sales person told me that she bought the last apistos they had.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Doesn't surprise me.

Had nothing better to do on a rainy New York, so I decided to put my hand in my tank to see what would happen. The fish couldn't care less, but this Amano decided to jump from this DW/BBA Tower to my hand.



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You could get a better perspective on the size of my tank in this shot.



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Wow, Matty has sure caused some good pics in all the planted gang's tanks to turn up. I like the one with the amano on your hand, pretty cool.

But I also like that I've now seen what your tank looks like with that light on top. If I did convert my 43.5G tank, mine would look pretty much identical - as mine has that black stripping on the top & even that cross bar for added support. I can now show that to hubby, as he doesn't want me to convert the tank. He likes it how it is. He will still probably object, as he likes how all 3 of my tanks match, and if I do the conversion, the big tank will be the "odd man out". But your pic may help me out, as he will see a pic of what I'm trying to explain it will look like.

Cheers
TW

Glad I could help Robyn. If you look closely you could see the little rubber feet under each front corner where the light meets the glass top.

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Gee,

I guess in order to top tetratech I will have to make a photo with my foot in the tank

Either this shrimp is really stupid or you are a very trustworthy person (or you had some algae glued to your thumb).

During feeding, I once in a while can pet my pearls and the male Apisto, but only briefly

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Tetra,

Very nice pictures. Your tank has always looked super huge until that full tank shot.

The picture with the shrimp is quite interesting. At work the skunk shrimp will do the same thing. My fresh water shimp seem much more skiddish though.

It is always interesting to hear about other LFS's as I work in one. Right now our plants are taking a turn for the worst. That is what happens when they don't let me ferts like I like to. 3WPG and no ferts tends to lead to hair aglae and I just started to see it in the Display tank.

Plants are not a really big part of our busness but they are picking up. Being that there is not a really fast turn over it is best to plan on keeping them alive for a while. If you don't plan on keeping them alive then they look like crap and you can't sell them. Ahh.......sorry things are messed up at work....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Right now our plants are taking a turn for the worst

What kind of setup does your store have for the plants?

Guys I'm giving serious consideration to uping my light to a 260watt 48" CF fixture, that would give me 130watt and 260 midday. I'm considering this for several reasons:

1. I'm growing more riccia toward the corners and it's defintely a challenge with the 36" fixture.

2. I need a 36" light for my saltwater setup and I can use my current fixture and just switch the bulbs.(Yeah Matty, I'm still coming to the darkside)

2. Like to see if it colors up the aromatica alittle more.

3. Might looks "alittle" better

I'm reluctant of course becausse "why change a good thing" and I would be going to 1.8 and 3.6 from 1.3 and 2.6.

What do you guys think?

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Well tetratech,

That would put you at least in my ballpark of lighting, if not more. Your tank has pretty much the dimensions of a 55, with a dent in the front glass. With this I mean that the brunt of light will hit a smaller area than the 72G may make one assume there are. Do you know what I mean? Remember that I am down to 1h of high light only.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Your tank has pretty much the dimensions of a 55, with a dent in the front glass

You have such a way with words. Did you ever consider being a brochure writer for AGA.

Anyway, yeah I know exactly what you mean and to be honest I wouldn't feel comfortable going with the high light for more than a few hours and probably not with my existing fishload. Although I believe the tank is more mature and might be able to handle it now as opposed to 5 or 6 months ago.

My Scapes

Bah I don't believe it. I never got a second timer for my lights. 192W for 12 hrs per day. So far it's working out, but I don't know how it will be when I get more fish in there and feed more. Right now the plants LOVE it. The baby's tears have pretty much gone bananas and the hygro has reached the surface and started to bend over, the ambulia is almost there as well. No algae. I don't know how long it can last to be honest, I'm starting to worry about how things are going so well. With all the nonsense you guys gave me about fishless cycling you almost got me believing it would crash as soon as I turned the lights on.

There is that whole why change a good thing, though. Personally, I'd upgrade though. It's a perfect oportunity. I took advantage of a similar oportunity as well.

And Tankwatcher...don't blame me for the better pics. All blame goes to the photographer

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

don't blame me for the better pics. All blame goes to the photographer

Do you mean when I said your marine pics are nice & that your's looks better than ours. Definitely you're the better photographer - as a photographer, I suck. But it's more than that. The tank is hubby's & I don't necessarily like his arrangement of rocks or choice of corals. So the compliment was for how you have things arranged, just as much as the photography skills.

Cheers
TW

Nope, I was responding to this comment:

Wow, Matty has sure caused some good pics in all the planted gang's tanks to turn up. I like the one with the amano on your hand, pretty cool.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I was confused by what you meant, as I forgot about that photography comment & thought it was funny that you'd mention the marine pics here. Dopey me

Cheers
TW

tetratech,

Well, if you have the spare money I would say you should go for it, the least it will do is to put your theory on light vs. algae to the test

So, 260W are 4 65W units, if I understand that right. Did you think about splitting the K spectrum or are they all gonna be 6,700?

And Matty - "All blame goes to the photographer" - How should I have known that you like crocket angles for your tank pictures. That only became clear to me after I saw the Picasso installation in your tank .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well, if you have the spare money I would say you should go for it, the least it will do is to put your theory on light vs. algae to the test

Well not much of a theory, more light, more waste, more algae

Still two camps out there, macros (no3,po4) cause algae or not. What's the difference between the no3 produced by our bacteria friends and the no3 we dump in?

My Scapes

What's the difference between the no3 produced by our bacteria friends and the no3 we dump in

Organic and Synthetic?

As for the lights. I would say go for it if you have the cash. I am running strait 3.25WPG on my tank with out any problems. I don't think you will have a problem with it.

Edit: Forgot about this...

What kind of setup does your store have for the plants?

For plants we have:

(4) 15G with PC
(1) 40G Long with 130W PC
(1) 120G with 322W PC

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Well one difference between the KNO3 and the nitrate that comes from fish waste is that fish waste is ammonia first. Everybody should know by now that it's ammonia that is the major cause of algae. Either that or you have a major imbalance causing your plants to stop growing.

the Picasso installation in your tank

I think you are referring to my glossofalls there LF, and please the name is "death star" anything else just falls short.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

For plants we have:

(1) 40G Long with 130W PC
(1) 120G with 322W PC

And no real co2 and fert program

Well one difference between the KNO3 and the nitrate that comes from fish waste is that fish waste is ammonia first. Everybody should know by now that it's ammonia that is the major cause of algae. Either that or you have a major imbalance causing your plants to stop growing.

Your preaching to the choir. I'm with you on the ammonia thing, but I'm referring to the biological filter converting ammonia into nitrate as the end-product of the nitrogen cycle. Is this product pretty much the same to the aquarium as the no3 we dump in?

My Scapes

And no real co2 and fert program

Well there was a fert program but that has ended. I haven't been into work in a few days but the last time I was there the hair algae had started. See what happens when I get to work tomorrow!

Pretty cool ehh?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

A little aerial action:



Attached Image:


My Scapes

and a shot from the side showing the riccia growing on the big rock. You could cleary see the hairnet on the back where there isn't any growth.

Attached Image:


My Scapes

You could cleary see the hairnet on the back where there isn't any growth.

If you wouldn't have pointed it out only LF would have caught it.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

If you wouldn't have pointed it out only LF would have caught it.

Amongst other things I'm sure

My Scapes

Very true tetra!

Nice plant colors BTW!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Nice plant colors BTW!

Thanks Man! I think if I go up to 260w I will get better color in the Aromatica. I've tried experimenting with many levels of po4, macros and lowering no3, helps alittle, but not real deep color. I think this plant needs more wattage!

My Scapes

only LF would have caught it

Me, noooooo

I like the shots from the side once in a while as it shows how much you made out of a rather narrow tank.

I think this plant needs more wattage

Or - a permanent waterproof marker

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I am kind of thinking of adding more Wattage with my tank too for colors.....I keep forgetting I have another PC ficture laying around....If I ran both fictures I could have up to....390W's... thats....almost 10WPG......Oh the colors I could have.....or aglae!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Your aerial shot looks great, and I never would have seen any hair net.

If the new light means more colour, why not go for it.

BTW, I've been watching your converstation over the last day or so, about upgrading the lights. This decided me. Since way back, an on-line LFS has been holding my payment for either 36" or 48" fixture for the 4ft tank (or maybe even upgrading the 43.5G). I haven't been able to decide till now. I've called them & their sending out the 48" today. I'm not allowed to set the tank up yet, but I'm getting everything ready for the great day when I get the go ahead. I even have a regulator & solenoid I bought on ebay.



Cheers
TW

Oh the colors I could have

Wings - If you are not talking about a Nano tank here (and you aren't) then I would strongly suggest to reconsider hanging 10wpg over any normal sized tank. But on the other hand, I would be very interested to see the effects.

If the new light means more colour, why not go for it.

Robyn - because with every watt added to your light your margin of error is equally (not in a strict mathematical sense of things) reduced. And tetratech would be addding quite a bit. With that, IMHO, he risks running into the same issues that I have on the 125G. But at least he has a UV light that kills floating algae. BTW tetratech, did you replace the bulb in it yet?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well, it's too late now. The 48" fixture should already be on it's way to me from Brisbane. I hope I don't regret it. But the decision's made, so I'll try not to even think about it again. I may not even be able to set it up for a very long time & besides, I think I will sell the 4ft I have, as it is a small 4ft (only 14 inches wide & 18inches tall). I will get a tank instead that is 18 inches wide & 20 inches tall. I would not have 260W, but 220W over 72G & for the majority of time, I would run 110W, only 220W for maybe an hour - building daily maybe to 2 hours. I don't think I'd really be up for much extra in the swap over, as I have the tank & the stand to sell (I don't need the stand it came on). By the time I am allowed to set it up, maybe I'll also have saved enough $$$ for a UV too. (Sorry tetratch to talk about my non-set-up dream tank in your log.)

Cheers
TW

BTW tetratech, did you replace the bulb in it yet?

No not yet, but your right it's probably due for a change. Depending on usage, I think you could wait a year.

As far as the 48" light. I guess I'll lose a little intensity when raising it up on the coralife stands. Right now it's pretty much on the glass.


My Scapes

I think the intensity loss is minimal when raising the fixture by about 2 inches as all that the light has to pass in that space is air. But you will get a better spread

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I would strongly suggest to reconsider hanging 10wpg over any normal sized tank. But on the other hand, I would be very interested to see the effects.

Thats why I am temped to try it. The Rotalla Magenta is not doing really hot in my tank and I am guessing it needs more light. Maybe I will start out with extra 130W's and see what happens. That would put me at 6.5WPG. I could probably pull that off.......



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

LF,

Where did you buy your fixtures? I think it was Hellolights but I don't know for certain. based on price and performance I don't think there's much competition for Coralife. Do you agree?

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Last nite I took out the DW and scrubbed it down a bit and repositioned it slightly. In this pic you could also see the additional riccia toward the left and right corners. Notice how dark it is.



Attached Image:


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Very nice,

Now you are even polishing the driftwood, how about a chrome layer on it to make it really shine

Coralife and nothing else, today I purchased a 65W unit for the 20QT, the only tank that didn't have a PC lighting system. Now all my tanks are Coralife

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

..and


Tetratech wrote:

Where did you buy your fixtures? I think it was Hellolights but I don't know for certain. based on price and performance I don't think there's much competition for Coralife. Do you agree?

Thanks for the compliments, BTW - I scrubed the DW of any BBA. I like to use it as an indicator whether there s still new BBA growth, since it seems to only really attack the DW.

EDIT: Matty,Wings anyone: Do you guys know if a full canopy (you know the one's LF hates) fits over a coralife fixture on legs. So if you have a 4 foot tank and a 4 foot coralife can you easily take the top off and on.

My Scapes

I am not sure if you will have problems or not with the fixture and a canopy. We normally don't get canopies for our tanks unless somone wants one. In which case they are normally locally custom made. In short... I can't help. Sorry.

Are you just trying to make LF angry? The best bet would be to call and find out some measurements on one. The biggest thing is making sure its not a super tight fit on the sides of the tank being the legs hang off the sides.



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Are you just trying to make LF angry? The best bet would be to call and find out some measurements on one. The biggest thing is making sure its not a super tight fit on the sides of the tank being the legs hang off the sides.

Well my wife still is bugging me for one, since she it's in her kitchen and the canopy will make it look more like a built-in. Ah, if I only had a Fish-Room and not a Fish-Kitchen

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Wow tetra, you're a good man, truly a man willing to comprimise. Putting a big ugly canopy over your tank? I'm impressed...

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Back in the saddle!

Yeah I'm the man, who knows who the boss is - my wife

One thing actually that I do like about the canopy is that it looks more like a public aquarium, where the room is dark and all the light is n the tank. You aren't distracted by the light that you see coming from the reflector.



My Scapes

I do agree that the tanks seem to look much more built in when you have a contraption on top of the tank but I am willing to bet that it will be a big pain in the butt with the amount you will have to take the thing off.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

No an all-glass canopy won't fit over a coralife with legs. Just the 4 ft fixture on a 4ft tank will fit under a canopy, as the fixture is slightly less than 4 ft. I guess the only way to do that would be to cut a couple slits in the side of the canopy for the legs. All of the weight of the canopy rests on 4 corner pegs so cutting some on the sides would be ok. That would take care of the length wise problem, but I'm not sure if the coralife with legs will fit height wise either. For that, you could cut a couple peices of wood to place in the four corners bringing up the canopy.

EDIT: on the other hand a couple of T5 HO bulbs will fit up into the canopy VERY well. A 2 bulb 4 ft T5HO(icecap) retrofit kit from reefgeek would be nice in there. Other places sell them, but usually don't include choice of bulb and are therefore more expensive. Plus I've delt with them twice, with success. Really if you are planning on a canopy I'd go ahead and do a retrofit kit, even if it's pc. it'll save you money, and won't be as bulky. Fixtures were designed for tanks without canopies. Retrofits were designed for tanks with canopies.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks for detailed breakdown matty. So pretty much without the legs it will fit. The retrofit sounds interesting, but as Wings points out I'm gonna be taking this thing on and off quite often especially with all the trimming I do, so it's got to be smooth and easy.



My Scapes

How much smoother can it be than just taking one thing off? If you have a fixture on the tank, you have to take off the canopy and the fixture, unless you can work around the fixture.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I don't think the AGA canopies are designed for massive light and with it massive heat, but I don't know that for fact.

One thing is for sure though ( - or not, but I think so): a massive canopy makes any tank look smaller as it appears without it.

Oh, and as for where I got my lights: The super sized fixture on the 125 was from Hellolights, they were the only ones to offer a 72" fixture for shipping and had a great prize as well. My other fixtures are all from Big Al's as the price is pretty much the same, but I get points and fast delivery at less cost.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks LF for your comments on the females and the lights.
I guess the drama continues, because I'm not convinced of anything with these females and I am convinced the stores don't know what they are getting some times.

Anyway as far as the lights. I too like ordering from Big Als when I can for the reasons you stated, but right now the lighting prices I'm getting for the 48" are:

BigAls $230 (some reason the salt one with lunar is $200)
AquaBuys $200
HelloLgt $195

DrsF&S isn't listing the freshwater one, but the salt is $200. I've started to notice their pricing is beating bigals alot lately. Also why are the freshwater aqualights always in the alumimun housing and the saltwate ones in the black? Any clue?

My Scapes

The ones we get at my store are all the aluminium just with different bulbs. Changes are they are trying to make them different for less confusion.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Yeah, I don't know why they do that either. My 72" unit is black, but it has by default 2 actinic and 2 10,000K bulbs in it, aka saltwater setup.

I am with Matty on the female Apistos, they all look alot alike, well - at least most do. It may be interesting to start bets on how long it will take until all sub-species are mixed up in one gene pool.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

A couple of rare morning photos of my tank. Tough to take morning shots with the glare coming from the back of my kitchen hits the tank, but here ya go.

Here is a full tank shot. A couple of changes to note:

The rocks have been reworked alittle more to show more constrast between the riccia and the blyxa. In order to do this I had to remove some more wisteria (holds breadth, right LF)

I think the tank is even more random, even the center area is not as "manicured" I also like the way the wisteria randomly exists around the foreground keeping it together.

Attached Image:


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A closeup shot showing the different levels and such in the tank. Also alot of fish activity. Those 4 rummys who have been with me since the beginning still school nicely. Much better schoolers than the cardinals, but unfortunately for most hours of the day they don't show up well in the tank.

Attached Image:


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I had about 10 rummys about a year ago, and I never saw them. The tank was planted up with (gasp) fake plants and driftwood so there were plenty of places to hide and they used them all the time. The water stayed very clean, they had a TON of color, and there wasn't a whole lot of traffic in front of the tank or anything, they just hid....all the time. I think they were the most disappointing fish I ever bought. Once in a while I'd put my hand behind and on the sides of the tank to scare them out...this was the only time I ever saw them.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Very nice tetratech, and looking way more diverse than before. I like how the wisteria is arranged in a cresent shape on the right of the tall group, coming taller from the back and wrapping low to the front.

Currently, I find the tall rock with Riccia too massive for the rest of the arrangement. And it hasn't even fully grown in yet. Most other places in your tank have smaller spots with the same plants, as you point out the break up of Riccia in the front with wisteria. This one though is one big Riccia spot. Just my opinion,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Nice shots & nice changes. Those rummys look really nice.

Cheers
TW

Matty,
That is pretty much the opposite of my small rummynose school. They are pretty much back and forth in front all day. Did you have any predator type fish with them?

LF,

I like how the wisteria is arranged in a cresent shape on the right of the tall group, coming taller from the back and wrapping low to the front.

Glad you noticed that, it is one of my favority spots of the tank right now.

Currently, I find the tall rock with Riccia too massive for the rest of the arrangement.

I don't disagree with you, I'm still playing around with the placement of the large riccia rocks. The right covered rock is alot bigger than the right covered one. I went with rocks I had (remember I'm the other Jeff) and the left one is really too small or the right one is too big, I'll probably end up replacing the left one and making it bigger.

Robyn,

Thanks

My Scapes

tetratech,

I agree, the left one could be a little bigger, but the right one should be a little smaller as well. It right now has the size of the entire plant species to the left of it (rotala, right?). Maybe not in height but in width it does so.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
I've made a quick change just for you. See if you can notice the difference:

Here's the first photo again:



Attached Image:


My Scapes

And here's the LF change:



Attached Image:


My Scapes

You raised the rock on the left, or replace it with a larger one

Right?

Makes the left side more fitting to the right, nevertheless, IMHO the one on the right is too big.

Sorry to be such a PITA, but there is nothing else to bicker about in your tank

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes, I raised the rock (couldn't cover a new one with the riccia that fast) and put some pieces of wisteria in front of the rock. Your right though the rock on the left actually had already been lifted by another rock underneath. I simply adding another rock to lift it higher. I'll probably go looking for better rocks but I'm pretty much using what I had. Actually the rock on the left is a petrified wood and the big rock on the right is a moss stone I had in my backyard.

My Scapes

and the big rock on the right is a moss stone I had in my backyard

You know, my wife has some small bolderish looking rocks as borders for her flower beds. You have no idea how often I had been tempted to steal one or the other so I can add them to my tank

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You know, my wife has some small bolderish looking rocks as borders for her flower beds

I would take one and replace it with a fake rock. If she's like my wife, she won't notice the difference.

My Scapes

Did you have any predator type fish with them?

Well a couple of apistos, but that wouldn't bug them I don't think. That's all that was in the tank other than a clown pleco.

I was a bit tired when I wrote that post and forgot to actually comment on your tank

I think the new "LF" change really helps balance out the tank in a way I personally(in my lack of scaping skills) couldn't put a finger on.

One thing I like are the little stand alone "adventuresome" wisteria here and there. It looks very realistic in the "it just happened to land right here" sort of way. I'm hoping to get this affect in my tank eventually. I don't want blocks of plants, but sort of a natural blurring and a few adventuresome plants here and there. A little bit of blyxa or chain sword popping up out of the feild of baby's tears or something like that. Maybe an epic battle between the oncoming rush of glosso coming down the falls and the bit of moss clinging for dear life on a rock popping out from the falls. Something like that would be pretty cool, and I think you have a bit of that in the random spots you've been working on.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Lately, a couple of us have talked about new rocks & sometimes finding them (or stealing from wive's gardens).

I wondered if this link I stumbled across might help, in making sure the rocks are aquarium safe. It seems to say the vinegar test may not always work.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/rock_metals.php

Cheers
TW

Hi,
Good article Robyn. We carry dilute HCl in to the field
to test for carbonates. Vinegar will not work on all
carbonates for a few reasons. First, the carbonate bond
may be too strong and the acid too weak to break the
bonds. Second, could be due to surface weathering. As the
rock is exposed to the elements, it develops a layer on
the surface that can be a few microns thick to fractions
of an inch thick. This weathering rind will prevent the
acid from reaching the unweathered carbonate below the
rind, and give a false reading. Generally, to eliminate
that possibility, we scratch the surface of the rock or
cleave a piece off the the sample so we get a fresh,
unweathered surface and test on that surface.
The idea of the vinegar was to use an acid that is
most commonly found in nearly every household.
Not everyone has access to HCl.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Robyn,

Frank wrote what I thought once I was finished skimming through the article.

Even if I had access to such chemicals, how often would I need them? Maybe once in 6 months if I have multiple tanks, maybe only once at all. Any chemical that I don't need to store in the house is a good one

Vinegar and a little bit of faith will have to do, at least for me.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Frank & LF

I received the article via a newsletter I get from having signed up to a US cichlid forum. I wonder why they advise the use of something that is not readily available - seems a bit pointless doesn't it.

Just out of curiousity, I'm going to ask around here in Aus how hard it is to get, but experience tells me that if you find it hard, so will I. My children are all older, so I need not be so worried as LF in regards to having chemicals in the house.

I was interested, cause I tried the vinegar test on my gravel in the 43G & even after scratching the surface, I got no result. But something affects pH & hardness in that tank, even during a time when nothing other than fish, plants, wood & gravel were in there. So I was already doubting the vinegar test, before I read this.

Cheers
TW

Well I think one of my bolivians has died. I haven't seen him in 7 days even at feeding time. One of my bolivians is about 2 years old.

Great now I have one bolivian, one bosemani. I might bring the bosemani back along with maybe the 5 pencils to reduce the species count.

My Scapes

Sorry about the Bolivian tetra. We discussed his age a few weeks ago, I wonder if it was indeed him. If so, at least you know he lived a good long life... after the hwole, ya know, brewery thing...

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Back in the saddle!

Sorry for the loss tetratch. Will you get a new friend for the surviving bolivian?

Cheers
TW

Thanks guys. Yes, we did talk about it Nowher and I knew it was coming. Robyn, I probably won't replace the ram, because the other one is pretty old too and I'm currently reevaluting the stock in my tank. Don't like to get rid of anything, but I'd like to move more toward a one species schooling fish. I still have the two young blue rams in there to compliment the schools I have.

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Sorry about the Ram, tetratech

Do you think it has been completely eaten by the tank mates? I would seriously start looking around in the tank for any remains.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Do you think it has been completely eaten by the tank mates? I would seriously start looking around in the tank for any remains

Thanks LF, I honestly can't find it. I started poking aroudn the back but no luck. I also have about 7 Amano shrimp in the tank. They probably picked at it as well.

My Scapes

Sorry bout the ram, tetratech. It seems like everybody is having fish drop off, bummer.

In well established tanks(especially one with inverts or scavengers), unless you find them right away, you probably won't find them at all.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

In well established tanks(especially one with inverts or scavengers), unless you find them right away, you probably won't find them at all

.
Yeah, I'm sure your right. Between the shrimp, kuli, corys and otos I'm sure it's pretty much gone.....

Does seem like a bad month so far for Cichlids here at FP

My Scapes

Between the shrimp, kuli, corys and otos I'm sure it's pretty much gone.....

I didn't know you had corys in there too!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Yeah,

I think he has one Cory in there, right tetratech? Isn't he the sole surviving cory when your former tank had a nuclear meltdown?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hence the Bensaf fish stocking style.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I think he has one Cory in there, right tetratech? Isn't he the sole surviving cory when your former tank had a nuclear meltdown

Yeah, he seem pretty happy. I know the cory addicts don't approve, but I don't have much of a foreground otherwise I would get more.

Speaking of single fish I think I might return my one bosemani to the LFS today.

My Scapes

Sounds good tetratech,

I am sure he is a lonely fellow in your tank there. Although one never knows where he will end up next, there is a chance that he will be better off.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I am sure he is a lonely fellow in your tank there. Although one never knows where he will end up next, there is a chance that he will be better off.

You are right of course, but I know of one LFS that has an endcap 72g with all rainbows in it and supposely they don't sell them. It's just display so I'll try to get him in there.



My Scapes

A couple of nice schooling shots:



Attached Image:


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When cardinals school they are tough to beat IMO.



Attached Image:


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A couple of current tank shots. First before a major trim.



Attached Image:


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and how the tank looks right now after a major trim. I also lightened up the stargrass groupings, making them more like accents. I just feel the plant is too much maint.in a hi-light, co2 tank. The aromatica, rotala and of course wistera are much more manageable.



Attached Image:


My Scapes