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Thanks Littlefish. The water does look clear in the pic, but trust me it's a greenish tint right now. I wish I could attach a small video(mpeg) of the tank (don't think we have that yet at FP ]:| ) The thing I don't understand is the my nh3 is zero and most will say a algae bloom is associated with high nh3.

Yes, going to start adding some no3, po4 back in. Actually my lighting situation is this. One ballast broke and no for some reason the other bulb is on going off and on. :%) Since I had one broken ballast and two bulbs that are 18 months old I decided to just purchase a new fixture (coralife dual cf 192watts from HelloLights). I decided to stick with 192 watts on the 36in fixture, because I feel the 2.7 wpg is enough. The 48in fixture would have given me 3.6 wpg. I just don't thing I need that much. I would have liked to get up to 3wpg like you. I guess I could always put another small light on top.

Last edited by tetratech at 07-Oct-2005 17:29

My Scapes

Here's a pic looking thru left side of aquarium. Now you could see the cloudiness.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Well at least the addition of Macros has been eliminated from the equation.

Still mystifying though.

Be interesting to see if the willows work. If not the next step may be a blackout or Diatom filter.

I'm choosing to retain my dignity and will not stoop to dignifying the cheap shots about my age with a response. But I will say this -

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I'm choosing to retain my dignity and will not stoop to dignifying the cheap shots about my age with a response

I'm staying out of this one.

I'm going to play devils advocate with the macros. Yes, true my no3 and po4 are currently at minimal levels, but could they have started the cloud and now it has enough to keep going.

My Scapes

Okay, I've missed something about the willows, but that's because I don't have as much time as I would like to read lately, so I mainly look at the pictures.

In any case, I would try Purigen if I were you. It does wonders to clear cloudiness from tanks and it's a relatively cheap solution, unlike a diatom filter.

I really like the look of the tank and you made me think about changing my substrate which I'm trying hard to resist because I can't be bothered going through that.

Last edited by Untitled No. 4 at 08-Oct-2005 02:08

Untitled,

Thanks for the Purigen info, might give it a try, because the next stop is a diatom filter. Purigen sounds like it should only be used short term or it will remove things the plants need as well.

If you interested in the willow story, here is the link that Bensaf originally sent to me.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=7212

Last edited by tetratech at 08-Oct-2005 07:31

My Scapes

Thanks for the link. I'll sure read it.

As for Purigen, it is especially made for planted tank exactly because it does NOT remove any nutrients that activated carbon would and so there's no problem using it in a planted tank. I've used it in mine for a long time now non-stop and I have no problems with it.

I keep saying that whenever I get to say something about Purigen, but I think it does an amazing job in clarfying the water. Even without cloudiness the results are astonishing. The only thing you do need to pay attention to is that if you use a water conditioner with amine based stress coat, you shouldn't attempt to recharge it as the process of recharging when used with amines makes it lethal for the fish. In any case, it's still cost effective as it lasts for months.

Just added it to my "fish net" at BigAlsOnline.

thanks much!

My Scapes

Update - Day 15 Pic

The tank continues to remain cloudy with GW. The sticks in the tank are willow branches which supposely have have been used successfully by othe aquarists to clear water. A thread of this procedure was originally directly to me by Bensaf. I'm going to start a thread on FP as well detailing the progress.

Anyway back to the tank:
The plants continue to grow great even now the stargrass is starting to pop after a trim. One thing I'm not crazy about is the color of the stargrass closely matches that of the wisteria and almost looks the same at a first glance. I have reduced my ferts to about 1/8 tsp no3 and 1/32 tsp po4.

Although I have GW, there is ABSOLUTELY no algae on the plants. There is some spot algae on the glass. Is this common for GW, not to have it on the plants, but in the water column only.

The fish are all doing well including the remaining rummynoses (lost one). My bristlenose does seem to be ruining some of the dwarf hairgrass by laying on top of it and moving around.

tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 09-Oct-2005 09:42[/font]

My Scapes

I'm going to play devils advocate with the macros. Yes, true my no3 and po4 are currently at minimal levels, but could they have started the cloud and now it has enough to keep going.

You just won't let up

GW will not appear on plants , it's free floating. Recipe to create = Ammonia and light.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

You just won't let up
Bensaf, let's talk man to man.
What would cause GW? The GW is feeding off something. I've never had GW in a non co2, non fert tank even one's with minimal plant mass. The things this tank has that the other ones don't are co2 and proactive nutrient addition (no3 po4). Test kits (forget the no3 one) have shown that my nutrients are not being sucked up that quickly. Probably because my plant mass is not that great. Isn't that the idea behind the willow. If I would have filled my tank with Hygro I bet I wouldn't have this situation.



My Scapes

I just had to pop in and say
(in true little fish style)

1. Hi!
2.Tetratech you tank looks great, I love the way you have it laid out.
3. The Bensaf, Little Fish, Tetratech combo makes me laugh so much it is untrue(and clearly suggests a lack of social life) but between the voodoo dolls and the willow (which I thought was a wind up) its just brilliant reading this log and Little Fish's log - which I will now go check out....




GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

GFG,

Firstly, I'm glad you see the humor in the exchange. Sometimes with the Internet it's hard to get the infliction. Without the smileys I think alot of FP would take things the wrong way.

Thanks for the tank comments, that is always good to hear, unfortunately if my tank continues to get cloudier I won't be able to see the layout soon.

In terms of social life, if you look at the average post per day by FP member (LittleFish 5.6, Bensaf 2.2, Tetratec 2.1) I think you could see who doesn't have much of a social life. ]] Just kidding LF - my wife is ready to throw in the towel.

My Scapes

LittleFish 5.6, Bensaf 2.2, Tetratec 2.1

]:|

That’s because you guys are members since forever and one cannot keep up my pace (only 4 months of membership), except if all you provide is a series of one-liners. I bet you tetratech that ever since we started our big tank projects you posted just as much as I did, if not more.

My wife doesn’t see me very often these days. If I am not working on my tank then I am staring at it, or I edit some pictures of the tank, or I create entries here.

Now, with regards to your tank:

I think it still looks very beautiful. I see that the Rotala is growing really strong and the Wisteria is spreading out nicely. The Willow branches give the tank an Asian design, almost like Bamboo. Do they help at all (maybe I should check what you have in the “specialized” thread)?

I somehow must have missed the point when you identified your cloud as green water. What made you conclude that this is what it is? I remember that in particular my 29G had a whitish cloud that didn’t go away for at least 2 weeks. How about the substrate – no chance that it is the culprit? Bensaf – look away for this question:What are your current tank parameters? Do they make any sense? What’s the ammonia, nitrate, and phosphate (in particular the last one)?

Till soon,

Ingo

EDIT: My current post count is 5.7

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 09-Oct-2005 17:50

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That’s because you guys are members since forever and one cannot keep up my pace (only 4 months of membership), except if all you provide is a series of one-liners.
Touche

29G had a whitish cloud that didn’t go away for at least 2 weeks
How did you finally get rid of it?

Over the weekend it has a very obvious greenish hue to it. I don't think it's the eco, my phosphate numbers are within line not into the stratasphere. My numbers are as follows:

ph 6.6
kh 3
no3 20ppm (hard to tell with kit)
po4 1ppm (this used to be 50 to 100 times w/old eco
nh3 0ppm (there's no nh3 feeding the bloom)
wb 5pp72g (5 Willow Branches per 72 gallons)

The only number I'm surprised about is the no3, which of course I don't know if it's accurate. You see the plant load, not tremendous, but pretty thick. I'v only dosed 1/8 tsp no3 and 1/16 tsp po4 over the last week or so since the bloom. willow hasn't rooted yet so nothing new to report.


My Scapes

wb 5pp72g (5 Willow Branches per 72 gallons)

OK lets talk mano e mano. Co2 doesn't cause GW. No3 doesn't cause GW. PO4 doesn't cause GW. Ammonia and too much light cause GW.
If it did why don't I and many many others have GW when we add these things, and not all are planted "shoulder to shoulder".
You don't have to take my word for this or anything else. You can test it all yourself.
Take your non co2 tank and add Ammonia and/or leave your lights on for too long and see how quickly the GW starts. Alternately add the No3 Po4 to that tank and see if you get GW.
Many people have suggested a black out for GW and it works. But a black out doesn't remove No3 or Po4 does it, so why does a black out get rid of GW ? Simple GW has nothing to do with NO3 or PO4 levels. Light and Ammonia.

I can understand the thinking of it "only happened when I added No3, Po4 and Co2". But it ain't always that simple. You may as well say I don't add sugar to the tank maybe that's why it has GW.
You can test and experiment to rule out or prove things. Take away the nutrients you suspect or add them and see the results.It's very very easy to do, you need to be willing to thrash a tank though, which of course, most of us don't won't to do.

BTW if I remember correctly from the original willow thread, there was a theory that the willow releases a chemical, forgotten the name, that messes up the GW, rather then it being a nutrient sucking thing.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

BTW if I remember correctly from the original willow thread, there was a theory that the willow releases a chemical, forgotten the name, that messes up the GW, rather then it being a nutrient sucking thing.

From reading most of the posts, it appears members didn't see results until the willow developed a considerable root system, suggesting the willow IMO was "sucking up" not "releasing down"

Last edited by tetratech at 10-Oct-2005 07:49

My Scapes

tetratech,

You say that the service that the willow may provide to your tank is based on a root system and that would be why you assume it is sucking it up. But, if it is the roots that suck, wouldn’t that mean that your water would have to be drawn into the substrate to achieve this effect? I doubt that.

Maybe the roots are needed because a willow needs to actively produce some chemical that is only generated when sufficient growth of the plant is given and based on nutrients in the substrate (post root growth). That means that root growth and a release of something into the water are not contradictive.

Just my thought,

Ingo

PS: If you and Bensaf are talking NOW from man to man, what level of communication did you have going before that ?

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You say that the service that the willow may provide to your tank is based on a root system and that would be why you assume it is sucking it up. But, if it is the roots that suck, wouldn’t that mean that your water would have to be drawn into the substrate to achieve this effect? I doubt that.

Good morning, how's the whether in Jersey, probably pretty crappy as it is on L.I., prefect day to talk on FP.
Anyway I'm not 100% sure I understand your response, but the roots on the willow will be sucking supposely from the water column not thru the substrate. The roots should developed all along the branch, throughout the water column.

It's kinda like the way floating plants are suppose to be good at sucking up nutrients. I've been floating some hygro in my tank (not enough) and they are developing quite an extensive root system just floating at the surface.

Last edited by tetratech at 10-Oct-2005 08:41

My Scapes

tetratech,

Got you, I didn’t know that fact (as I haven’t read the original willow thread).

And I don’t know about the weather in Jersey either as I am sitting here at work in the City, darn .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here's a update. Pic attached is Day 15.

Bensaf
The plants really are growing great, thanks for all the advice. One thing you neglected to tell me is I would have to take the plants out of the water to see them.






tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Oh, here's another pic. Let's call it willow wisteria. Actually my tank is go green it looks like green tea with a bamboo straw.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

The plants really are growing great, thanks for all the advice.

You're welcome. That's the important thing, if the plants are doing that well the current problems will eventually die down. If you are now seeing better plant growth then you previously had you are going to have less issues then you ever had before. Guaranteed. Plants are looking great by the way, very healthy and lush looking

Once this GW thing is licked I don't think you'll have any problems.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Here's an update parameter wise on my tank:

ph 6.5
kh 2.5 (should this be a concern)
gh 5
co2 23ppm
po4 .25 - .50ppm
no3 10ppm
nh3 0ppm

Bensaf,
That link that you sent LF to about algae mentioned in another link that GW is caused by high po4, high no3 mixed in with some nh3. Wouldn't that be a condition if EI is used at startup and you didn't have enough plant mass to eat the nh3 and the tank went through a regular cycle.

I'm currently treating the GW with the willow branches and I've put a 100ml pack of Purigen in the filter. After this it's lights out.

Last edited by tetratech at 11-Oct-2005 10:52

My Scapes

tetratech,

Just a thought, you are feeding Potassium, right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes, I am feeding Flourish Potassium. I had a bottle before I got the dry so4. Since I got the GW I've been dosing very small amounts of no3 and po4 and that's it. There is some potassium in the no3. I'm trying to keep everything within range but on the low end.

Also, whatever I trim is now remaining in the tank as a floating plant to help with sucking up stuff.


Last edited by tetratech at 11-Oct-2005 12:41

My Scapes

Well I think I solved my cloudy water problem. Didn't get much out of the willow branches (another thread) but my water does appear to be clearing. First I used Seachem's Purigen which according to Seachem will remove what the algae bloom is being supported by (nitrogenous organic waste). Now this removes the support system but won't neccearily remove the current bloom, although you would hope that with the support system gone the plants, etc would do the rest. Well this might have happened eventually but I really had all the green tea I could handle (I'm really java kinda guy), so then after talking with Seachem tech support they recommended (what a surprise) another seachem product called Clarity. Now clarity actually binds and clumps the current bloom into particles big enough for your filter to trap. Unfortunately I went to all my crappy lfs and of course non of them had Seachem's Clarity, so I bought a product from Hagen calle P Clear, which sounded like the same thing. So I dumped it in and it looks like it's working pretty good 2 hours later. I'll know in the morning if it did the job. Here's a link to it in action.

http://www.hagen.com/img/aquatic/addinfo/pclear-demo.ppt

My Scapes

tetratech,

Great that you seem to have found a solution to your problem. Any idea about possible side effects (besides clean water )?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Any idea about possible side effects
Don't even say it LF. I woke this morning to a crytal clear tank. I almost cried. Here are a few new pics:

Day 18

tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Pic of new foreground plant I added to right front (Lobelia Cardinalis) I don't know much about this plant, but I saw it in my lfs and bought it. Not sure if it fits in well with scape. Might look different once it starts to grow new leaves. Can you spot the albino BN?



tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 13-Oct-2005 10:34[/font]

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Close up shot of mid right showing signs of life on java moss.



tetratech attached this image:


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Finally a pic from the side showing clear water.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Oops, one more, close up of the main grouping.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Congratulations...

Now only Little Fish's problems need to be solved.

Untitled No. 4.
Been thinking about you because you recommended the Purigen to me. It acted as the first punch against the bloom. I think I'm going to keep it in my cansister as long as it doesn't affect the plants.

My Scapes

In that case you're going to keep it indefinitely... I've had it in both of my tanks for many months now and I don't have anything to say about it but compliments.

After thinking about it a bit, I thought that you problem might have been similar to something I had a while ago. I had a really bad protein film on my surface for a couple of weeks and it was so thick that algae started growing on it and it looked like an algae film instead... Perhaps your problem was just a case of cloudiness (from the substrate perhaps?) that allowed algae to grow on it rather than an actual algae problem. This is just an assumption, of course, I'm not scientist and although find the scientific side intriguind, I prefer concentrating on growing plants.

If I can still back Bensaf and try to convince you to keep up your macro dosing and even raise the doses a little bit you will probably see great results. I usually read everything but don't post that much as Bensaf always says it all and better than I could.

On a side note, I really like your tank. I've been thinking for a while now about getting a new tank myself and starting from scratch with the what I know now and didn't know before. My tank, although alright in my opinion, is a patchwork. I've added a tube here, a tube there and changed it so much the makers wouldn't recognise it anymore, but I feel that I could do better if I do everything right from the beginning. In any case, it was your tank that started the latest itch and I plan on getting a black substrate as well seeing how well it works with the greens of the plants. I also really like this dark outer-space look and plan on copying it to a certain extent.

Last edited by Untitled No. 4 at 13-Oct-2005 16:10

You Lucky Sun of a Gun

Well, although I am happy for you, I am jealous as well. Why can’t I seem to find my cure?

For real, I think it is great that you finally can look at your fish. Now you can focus on the tasks ahead .

What are you planning to do next anyway?

Stay Tea Free,

Ingo

PS: I will write an update to my tank events later (but nothing like your news, so don’ get excited)

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi LF,

Actually I was at a good lfs tonite and was really looking around to decide what the big school of fish is going to be in my tank. I don't know if I want to go with cardinals, their just so unpredictable. I did observe a few fish I really liked but I decided to wait being that the tank is only a few weeks old. The lfs had a nice supply of what they had labeled as penquin pencil fish and and red/coral pencil. Here's a few pics of what I mean.





tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

And these:



tetratech attached this image:


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The Penguins I was told from the LFS owner (very honest) are skittish so I didn't want to take a chance. I think they were 6 for $15 and the Red Pencil were 2 for $12 (very expensive)

My Scapes

Wow, they look nice.

I love the red one ( $$$ ).

Are pencilfish supposed to be good schoolers? If not, how would it look if you have a lot of the same fish just hanging out all over the place?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I believe pencilfish are good schoolers based on the conditions of the water. Maybe Bensaf knows, I think he has some. They also had I believe "Beckman" pencil fish as well for a more reasonible price. They had alot alot of rainbow fish as well, but I'm really looking to decide on the big school. The penguins would make a very striking shot in the tank if I got a big school. Anyway after all that I ended up buying for otos to add to the three I have in the tank. No problems yet.

My Scapes

Those Red Corals are real eye candy. Absolute beauts.

I do have 10 Beckford Pencilfish. Great fish, highly reccomended. They are not the tightest schoolers in the world.But unlike a lot of other Tetras (present company excluded ) they don't just sit around the middle of the tank. They are ideal for a planted tank. They are very active and love interacting with plants. They'll attack any and all algae they come across, although it's usually an excercise in futility on their part, they are way too small to make any kind of dent in a serious algae problem.
I don't find them shy or skittish at all, quite the opposite. Fascinating to watch. They form a very distinct social group and they will battle and display for a while until an alpha male is chosen. He will be easy to spot as he gets bigger and more colorful then the others. After that a very very peaceful fish.
Good looking too. They will really color up in a planted tank, with gold , black, brown colors and very bright flashes of red and white which you may not see in the store but will develop in a good tank quickly. On the occasions when they do decide to school tightly and go on a group tour of the tank they are an awesome sight.
For me they are a "must have" in planted tank. It's a bit like having a flock of humming birds tending to your tank.

Penquins, I've never had but they are easily available in stores here. Never thought much of them. They seem to just sit there and float. Apart from the funny 45 degree angle they swim at I can't see much of interest about them. I've heard they can be a bit on the nippy side.

Black Neons are a good bet too. Very attractive fish. Bigger and much tighter schoolers then the normal Neon.

I've seen a lot of Lemon Tetras pop here recently and they've got my eye. Pretty enough, but seem really tight schooling and pretty active.Might give them a try.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

One of my Pencils !

bensaf attached this image:

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Wow. Just wow. The only complaint I have is that the lobelia looks rather...odd in it's current placement.

Bensaf,

The coral pencil really is as you said "eye candy" in a way though they look alittle like cherry barbs. The beckfords aren't exactly hurting in the looks department, but it sounds like the schooling is sporadic, but I definitely want some in the tank especially after seeing your photo and description. As far as the big school I'm looking for, I'd like to go with the black neons, but for some reason I think a bigger school of smaller tetras would be more of a WOW factor than a smaller school of bigger tetras like the black neon.

Cup,
Thanks for the tank compliments, your right I kinda just put the lobelia there. Not sure it fits, so I'll probably more it or take it out. It was a spur of the moment purchase. I think the plant is used to pave "streets" with it in aquascaping.



My Scapes

Somehow I managed to miss all the posts on the previous page.

Green Water gone !!!!!

Musta been the NH3 which the purigen removed.

Great looking tank

Love Lobelia. I think it'll look good in the spot once it grows a bit. The leaf shape is a nice contrast to the Wisteria. It looks like emmersed growth, so it shouldn't brighten up and make more of a "statement" as time passes.

Congratulations

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Tetratech,

I think you should get a nice school of those red pencilfish even though they're pricey. They look like a redder version of nannostomus trifasciatus (three-lined pencilfish), which, according to the Baensch Atlas, "many hobbyists consider this the finest of the genus". I've never seen them IRL here, so must be quite rare. I have its cousin, nannostomus marginatus (dwarf pencilfish), and I love them! Very colorful, especially against dark substrate.

Those hockey stick tetras get quite big (I've seen some that are at least 3" long) - definitely bigger than the black neons. Also I don't think they would make as striking a contrast against a dark substrate vs. say cardinals, glowlights, or espei rasboras.

-P

Bensaf,
Thanks, not a hint of green (LF look away) and the water is looking really polished from the purigen.

Interesting thing with the Lobelia my bolivian ram is acting really funny with it. The ram has been covering the plant with the substrate. I've never seen it do this before. I read that some say this plant excretes toxins into the water. Have you ever heard this?



My Scapes

Maybe the Ram doesn’t like its color

I am glad that you don’t have any green water anymore. So what is your current fertilizer routine?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Good one LF,

I'm really not dosing alot:

I've been adding 1/4 no3 and 1/16 po4 twice a week.
I've been doing 5ml traces once a week.
I haven't added the potassium at all. Figured I'm getting some anyway.

Also the eco contains alot of stuff.


tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Here's another fish I saw a couple of weeks ago, but obviously I wasn't ready for them. Looks like they throw off some flourscent color. Has anyone kept emperor tetras? There are several different species (purpule, black)



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Tetra,

The latin name for Rams is Microphagus (sp?) which roughly translated means little earth mover. It's normal for Rams to decide to poke around and decide to re-arrange you substrate. Maybe he's looking for a pal. Get him a girlfriend, there more fun in groups. Even a couple of males (which I think I have) are fun, they bicker and squabble once in a while but nothing major, usually they hang out together. Maybe have a total of 3 , with the occassional bicker and squabble they'll be just like us

I've had the Purple emperors in the past. Nice fish, they color up beautifully given time, pretty active , don't really school though.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

I did not know that. Reason I was suprised is that I've had this ram for about a year and never saw it move the earth much, just a little when looking for food. I was going to ask you how many you have together. Here's a pic where it seems to have dug a hole behind the Lobelia






tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

I think they noramlly dig holes when they feel like breeding. Maybe he ....err....needs a cold shower

They seem quite social, I'd get him a friend , if you could get a female would be great, but as I said both my males seem to get on just fine. They are certainly far less territorial then the Blue Rams I used to have. They would have there own definate areas of the tank. The 2 Bolivians spend 90% of their time togather at the front of the tank. The only real squabble is at feeding , even then it's jus a push or two, no nipping or chasing. The Blues would chase one another all over.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I love both rams and have both but Bolivian rams, due to their size, can be more destructive for plants if they want to. which is when they breed. My couple, especially the male, uprooted all the Hemianthus "Cuba" in my tank, and then dug so many pits that my tank looked like London in the blitzkrieg. Although they bred only in one corner of the tank they made sure that all of it was uprooted, even bits at the other end of the tank. As much as I love them, I love(d) my Hemianthus as well so I moved them to the other tank where there are no small plants to attack and where I don't really care how much digging they do (which is a lot). So if you want to get your fish a friend, you might want to avoid getting a female. If you do get a female put some small slates in your tank which will minimise their digging in case they do want to breed as they prefer spawning on slates. Blue rams, even when spawning can't wreak as much havoc just because they're smaller.

Mind you, those fish are full of personality and each have a different one, so yours might not be anything like mine or like Bensaf's.

my tank looked like London in the blitzkrieg

I also prefer the Germans but the pair I bought didn't make it and died before I could move them into the big tank .

The Bolivians are quite a bit hardier and more forgiving when the water parameters are not optimal. I might just switch to them in a while. But I will wait with that until tetratech can send us pictures from his tank after a "bombardment" .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo,

I think that the number of the pits they dig and their depth depends mostly on how threatened they feel by other fish. In the tank where they are now they're only with two other fish who know better than to mess with them, so they only dug two pits and they weren't that deep. When they were in my bigger tank they were with cories and shrimps so they prepare several quite large pits and transferred the fry between those pits at least twice a day. The pits wouldn't have bothered me too much, but the destruction of the Hemianthus did as it was not an easy plant to get, and then not an easy plant to grow and then they came and declared war on it. I've collected the bigger bits (it's a very small plant) and replanted them, but it will take ages for it to make any difference, and by that time I hope to start with a new tank.

Tetratech, about the Eco Complete -- what size is it? Is it more like sand or more like gravel? I want to have sand in my next tank and if it is more like sand I will definitely use it as per Frank's five reasons for using Eco complete.

Untitled:
After all this talk about digging I guess I'll stick with the males. I don't want them wrecking the joint. As far as the eco and the grain size, that's an interesting question. Eco is has varied grain size and is suppose to automatically segregate in 2 layers, with the smaller grains on the bottom. But the latest batches I got most of it looked like sand size and goes up my python when I vac. If you want black sand I would go with the Tahitan Moon Sand from the same company (Carib-Sea)

LF:
tetratech can send us pictures from his tank after a "bombardment
Actually don't think my tank is all that bliss:
I have one ram a digging, two bristlenose hairgrassing and 3 pieces of alga on the back glass.

Last edited by tetratech at 15-Oct-2005 07:02

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A couple of developments today. I went to Aquarium Adventure (LF knows the place) and they really had some nice fish. Bolivian rams, chocolate cichlids, keyhole cichlids, beckford pencils, another more elongated pencil (maybe one line),apistogrammas, german rams, black neons.

I didn't love the way the bolivians looked and I was running out of time so I just played it save and picked up 3 beckford pencils and 5 black neons. The black neons were in a tank with a black background and black gravel and the blue line really looked great, so this could become my main school. I'll see how the 5 do. The beckfords look good although they actually look like my otos at first glance. I liked the chocolate cichlid but didn't know enough about them as well as the keyhole which I know gets about 6".

The surprising development (not a good one) is that my tank has a slight haze to it again, which I know will eventually turn green. Now I of course can't prove this but the tank was clear this morning and I dose my macros this morning.

Well maybe the willow will take care of it. See update in that thread.
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/65099.html?200510151215

My Scapes

I like the Black Neons a lot but I am not sure if they would stand out as well in my tank as they for sure will in yours. If you like how they shine in there then it is for sure a good pick for your large school.

I will keep my fingers crossed that your tank is not getting hazy again. Do you still have the Purigen in the filter? Maybe you are simply tired and it was your eye sight that failed you (I hope).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here's a pic of the black neon in my tank. The tank is maybe a little hazy this morning, but nothing to complain about. I actually screwed up the other day when I opened my filter I forgot to plug it back in so it was off for about 10 hours. I don't know if this contributed to the haziness. Not sure why it should, just thinking out loud.



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Here's a pic comparing day 5 and day 21 (this morning). Growth has really been superb. Tank was alittle hazy this morning, but cleared up within 2 hours. Plants doing their thing. I also have 4 branches of willow now sprouting roots. I'll have to stay on top of my nutrients see what's being sucked up. I'd like to try and compare suck up when branches are in and when their not.

Only problems right now are the bristlenoses. They are ruining my hairgrass and eating the lobelia.



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WOw tetra, already the aquascaping looks incredible. great job, can't wait to see it after the plants have grown in a bit. especially the hairgrass carpet.



Last edited by Megil Tel'Zeke at 16-Oct-2005 13:07

That tank is absolutely amazing looking. I wish you lived close by so you coudl help me do mine that well lol. Good Luck with your tank, and please keep posting those awesome pictures!

tetratech,

Lokking sharp, glad that the haziness was only temporary. Or, maybe given your own statement “I'm a little off today, drinking Cabo Tequila and Rum last nite”, maybe I wasn’t so off when I said that “your eye sight that failed you” .

I just love the way the Neon looks in your tank, but I am thinking now that a large school would add a lot of black to a black dominated tank. Maybe the more colorful pencils are better?

Growth is really nice; the Rotala is the dominant plant now. Also, the hairgrass does very well (unlike mine ).

Good job man,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks alot for the tank compliments. I really appreciate it and glad you enjoy the pics.

LF,
So far the pencilfish hover around the rotala and the Black Neons swim in the open, but other than the first hour in the tank they have not shown a tight schooling formation like rasboras, cardinals or rummys. Maybe I need to add more or a fish that scares them a bit.

Funny think about the haziness. It was three in the morning disappeared a few hours later than when I returned home this evening it was hazy again. Doesn't make much since. I guess it is the Tequila.

Last edited by tetratech at 16-Oct-2005 17:00

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Well there's Camouflage. This guys looks like my eco-complete. Actually my corrupted eco (note the white for the limestone)



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Last edited by tetratech at 16-Oct-2005 17:08[/font]

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Then there's the opposite.



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If your filter was down for 10 hours that's 10 hours when the bio colony in the filter were getting no water flow and no oxygen. $ hours is usually the max for this. Whatever bio colony you had in the filter was probably killed off. The haze you saw was probably a minor bacteria bloom.

I see the same thing if I overdo the cleaning of the canister filter. Get a light white haze for a few hours.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Yep, definitely thought about that. I guess I need to educate myself more on the livelihood of these little creatures. How does the bacteria in eco complete survive.

Eco Complete includes live Heterotrophic bacteria to rapidly convert fish waste into natural food for your plants. I guess they are of a different form to survive in a closed bag for who knows how long.

Last edited by tetratech at 16-Oct-2005 23:49

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yah the bacteria in eco-complete, are proably few and far between. never taken the time to look at the stuff under a microscope.

An addition to the filter being down for 10 hours thing:

I read that not only does the beneficial bacteria colony die off after 1 hour (some say even less) because of the lack of oxygen but bad bacteria is taking over in the canister (anaerobic sp?) and when the system restarts this bacteria is washed into the tank.

More than once did I read the suggestion that, in case of a longer canister down time, the water in the filter should be disposed off and the content should be cleaned (rinsed off) before the filter is restarted.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So I guess any good bacteria in the tank is sustained by the plants and some water movement by the fish, etc.

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Yes, that’s right.

I bought a small battery powered air pump for just that purpose (power outage). It will keep the tank aerated and also create some surface agitation.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

My tank definitely has a slight green haze to it and I feel like I'm walking a tightrope to control it. One slip and I'm back to the green fog. What's baffling is I have the purgien in, 4 willow branches sprouting roots and now leaves. I don't think this is the biofilter dying anymore. BTW I never detected any NH3 after the filter was off. Plants are growing great. Bensaf I think I did say that. My plants have never grown this well. Add another beer to your count, well deserved. Here's a closer pick looking in from the upper right down to the center grouping. Very lush (for me anyway)



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Last edited by tetratech at 17-Oct-2005 10:17[/font]

BTW - Have you guys seen my other thread:
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/65329.html?200510170038

Last edited by tetratech at 17-Oct-2005 10:21

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No, I didn’t see your other thread until you mentioned it here (and I responded immediately after I saw it).

I hope your green water doesn’t return. Can it be that your Purigen is already “used up” and either needs to be replaced or re-vitalized?

Ingo

You just wait. Once I am done with my big sucker tank (whenever this may be) I will have to redo my 20 Long and my 29 .

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 17-Oct-2005 10:51

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Possibly the purigen needs to be charged. That would be quick but maybe with all the green it got used up quickly. I think you have to soak in bleach.

BTW - My current tank parameters

ph 6.6
kh 3
c02 24ppm
po4 1ppm
no3 10ppm
nh3 0ppm

This is pretty much where I wanted to be. (maybe alittle more co2) This was also taken in the morning. I've been turning on my co2 a few hours before lights and a few hours after lights out to soften the difference between day and nite. Just seemed like a good idea.




Last edited by tetratech at 17-Oct-2005 11:19

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tetratech,

You have to explain to me what you mean by softening the difference between day and night.

I am wondering what your CO2 values are just before you shut down the solenoid. If it is a few hours after lights out, it should be fairly high (maybe not yet as you don’t have too many plants in there) as both, CO2 system and plants, add CO2 to the water.

I am on Tom Barr’s side who says that there no reason to run CO2 when no light is on.

Please be so kind and measure your CO2 tonight. Maybe we can draw some conclusions (and suck Bensaf into another conversation).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You have to explain to me what you mean by softening the difference between day and night.
Sometimes I get a gut feeling about something and I try to back it up scientifically. I'm not saying this is a big deal either way (Bensaf keeps co2 24/7 right). My thinking is if I overlap the co2 after lights out there isn't as much time for the ph to raise overnite so there shouldn't be as much of an upswing. In the morning I start the co2 about 2 hours before lights on, so when those lights do come on there is already considerable co2 concentration in the water (my ph this morning was 6.6) so the plants can start enjoy their food early. I noticed my rotala was pearling before 11am this morning.
I would love to hear Uncle Ben's take on this.

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LF
My current tank parameters this morning and this evening were
ph 6.6 / 6.5
kh 3 / 3
c02 24ppm / 28ppm
po4 1ppm / 0.25ppm
no3 10ppm / 10ppm

If this is accurate, my po4 was sucked up but not really nitrate. Could be misleading if tank is still cycling and producing nitrate.

It's interesting to note that we each have hit a snag in our setups. You with so many flavors algae and me with tinted green water. Let's see:

LF - More light, more ferts, more plants, no biofilter at startup
TT - Less light, less ferts, some biofilter (eco-complete that contains live Heterotrophic Bacteria)



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I understand where tetra is going.

Yes I used to run Co2 24/7. I hasten to add this was purely for convenience rather then avouiding pH shifts or such. I don't have a solenoid so it was just simpler to leave the Co2 running all the time.

I've since moved away from that. I now kind of do half of what tetra is doing. I switch on the Co2 a few hours before lights on and switch off imeddiately after lights out (sometimes an hour before lights out , more on that later). This is, again, for no other particuilar reason other then convenience. I still don't have a solenoid. So I manually switch on/off the co2 my self. The reason it gets switched on a few hours before lights on is that's when I leave for work ! I know one day I'm going to run out the door to the office and forget to switch on the Co2 so a solenoid valve is definately on the shopping list (my birthday tomorrow guys, now's your chance to make an old man happy ) . I could get around this by leaving the Co2 on but put the reactor on a timer, only problem is I've noticed if I switch off the powerhead attached to the reactor, when I switch it back on the powerhead won't run unless I take it off the reactor and klet it get started. I don't trust this so leave the reactor running 24/7 and just switch on off the gas supply.

Getting back to the point in hand, the reason I changed to this way of running Co2 was that I noticed if I only had the Co2 running with the lights I could really pump in Co2 heavy during the day, then by switching off at night it was giving a lot more safety margin comfort to the fish. If I was to run at the high bubble rate I run now 24/7 I'm pretty certain I'd have a lot of dead fish.

During the day my pH is anywhere from 6.6 - 6.4 so I have 30-40ppm of Co2. Fish are fine during the day (plants are consuming Co2 and giving out O2) but if I run this rate during the night the fish how signs of discomfort within a couple of hours.

I'm getting much better results this way. With the high Co2, plants are definately more lush, BBA is knocked out I don't get a speck on the Anubias anymore.

One surprising thing I noticed: even though I switch off the Co2 immedtiately after lights out the pH hardly shifts at all ! My ph out of the tap is about 7.4 so I was expecting a big upward swing when the Co2 was off. That didn't happen ! It will still be close to 6.6 in the morning. I guess with running so high during the day there is still a good bit in solution in the water, this plus the co2 production at night is keeping the pH remarkably stable.

So based on my own experience and observations I'd say there nothing wrong with starting up a few hours before lights on, in fact it would be a good thing the plants are ready to go as soon as lights on. But if the reason for running the Co2 a few hours after lights out is the fish, I'd say it's actually safer to turn off Co2 immediately upon lights out ! Especially if you're running a high rate during the day (tetra is running about 5bps, similar to me), I think the risk of ODing the Co2 and harming the fish is much greater then the risk of a pH shift. As I said, from my own experience, if the Co2 is a good rate during the day, the pH won't shift much if at all during the night.

I definately won't be going back to 24/7 running.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

If this is accurate, my po4 was sucked up but not really nitrate

Sorry just saw the latest post.

The numbers make some sense. PO4 really really pushes Nitrate uptake. With your PO4 so low Nitrate uptake will drop.

Also bear in mind the lower your nitrate the more dodgy the test kits get. You may have a lot less NO3 then you think.

This is line with what predicted yesterday, with that kind of growth, you are in real danger of bottoming out. I'd go back up to the normal EI dosages. Assuming you are convinced that it's nothing to do with the GW ???

BTW, the plants look great. You have a real hold on trimming techniques, something I'm lousy at

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

Interesting and nicely detailed entry about your CO2 routine. It almost convinced me to start up my CO2 a little earlier, but I will think about it some more first. Also, I would need to get another timer and plug first, this would be then the 4th timer on the tank.

“my birthday tomorrow guys”

Now this revelation made me really mad . I was planning since a week to create a surprise “Happy Birthday” entry for you, and now you took all the fun out of it. Well, I will have another chance next year .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well let me simply say "HAPPY BIRTHDAY". I feel like I should get you something with all the help you've given me. Well maybe I'll think of something (Got some nice willow branches).

Anyway, my thought with the co2 on the backend was what Bensaf said. The co2 concentration will be ready for the plants. The continuing of the co2 after lights off, doesn't concern me because it's only a few hours (not sure, but does plant usage stop immmediately with no light or is there some lingering usage. Another thing with my setup is that I actually have alot of surface agitation,(probably too much) with my return running a little above the water line. My cheap ladder diffusor (original one from hagen kit) seems to be doing a pretty good job. Even with the surface agitation, I'm holding about 25 to 28 ppm.

I'll have to stay on top of my dosing. I'm really getting sick of testing though, especially when you can't believe the results. Still vexed by this GW thing, but reading threads on APC should me it's not all that uncommon and it seems most people cured it with lights out and slowly brining their lights back up. The willow branches are really rooting. I wonder if they are sucking up more po4 than no3. I have to see if they help clear the water, but that's another thread.

You too kind about the Pruning. Let's see how my tank looks in 2 months.




Last edited by tetratech at 18-Oct-2005 05:49

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Here's a couple of pics of the new fish. Bensaf can you ID these for me. Are they definitely Beckford. Many times LFS has them mislabeled.



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And the Black Neons amongst the willow.



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I like the one Neon who is looking into the camera.

I can see him think “What the heck is going on here?”

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

A list , a list

- Actually the plants will probably switch off well before lights off. When do your Rotalas fold up and close shop for the day ? Mine do a hour or so before lights out. This basically the plant done with photosynthesis for the day. I'd assume at that stage it's not consuming anymore Co2.

- Yep thems definately Beckfords. They'll color up real good in a couple days. You'll see alot more gold and the red and white on the fins will get much more intense. Then you'll see their true beauty. How many did you get? Let us know how you like them.

- Ingo, aw shucks, I didn't think anybody cared . Not even sure if the wife remembered. Anyway you've really pleasured me

- Testing is a pain in the rear. I'm sure you're getting a real feel now for how the plants react as you vary dosages, make changes etc. Trust your eye and watch the plants, keep an eye on pearling etc. Looking at the tank is alot more fun then staring at a test kit changing color

I'm feeling proud that my nephews are all grown up now

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

“Anyway you've really pleasured me”

Glad I could help

And sure do I care about your birthday as for the next 1.5 months you are going to be a year older than I am .

With regards to plants closing shop for the night – my Egeria Najas even let their heads hang down before the lights go off.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Looks like I'm the baby of the group and already a fish master.



Last edited by tetratech at 18-Oct-2005 16:48

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It seems like a quiet day on FP. I guess Bensaf took many members to celebrate his birthday. I'm actually kinda miffed I thought Bensaf would be celebrating the big day right here with me. He's probably hitting every pub in town and you know those senior discounts are hard to pass up. And after the "you've really pleasured me" thing with Littlefish, who knows where he is.

Anyway because of all the help you gave me I'd like to dedicate the following pics to you for your birthday. Without you and your constant meddling in my tank affairs these pictures would never have been possible.

First pic is day 1


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Last edited by tetratech at 19-Oct-2005 21:38[/font]

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Day 12



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Day 24 - Bensaf's Birthday

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Wisteria Grove. My bolivian swishes around in here like a clownfish in an anenome.



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Here's a closer look of my main area. Everything looks nice and lush, healthy. The magic of EI.



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Here's an even closer look of my stargrass and rotala. I like the way the stargrass works it's way around the rocks and hardscape.



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Last edited by tetratech at 19-Oct-2005 21:53[/font]

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And finally. I hoped you "pearled all nite Bensaf" Happy Birthday.



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Gets better every time . Personally, I still think the lobelia should be moved closer towards the center, as it looks out of place in it's current placement.

In any case, what's the complete current stocking of the tank?

Thanks for the dedication.

Glad my "meddling" was of some help.

It looks real good, and as noodles said just keeps getting better.You can trim mine anytime.Errr...tank that is

You've done a superb job on the shaping and grooming.

You should be proud of that tank.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.