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Wow, they look nice.

I love the red one ( $$$ ).

Are pencilfish supposed to be good schoolers? If not, how would it look if you have a lot of the same fish just hanging out all over the place?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I believe pencilfish are good schoolers based on the conditions of the water. Maybe Bensaf knows, I think he has some. They also had I believe "Beckman" pencil fish as well for a more reasonible price. They had alot alot of rainbow fish as well, but I'm really looking to decide on the big school. The penguins would make a very striking shot in the tank if I got a big school. Anyway after all that I ended up buying for otos to add to the three I have in the tank. No problems yet.

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Those Red Corals are real eye candy. Absolute beauts.

I do have 10 Beckford Pencilfish. Great fish, highly reccomended. They are not the tightest schoolers in the world.But unlike a lot of other Tetras (present company excluded ) they don't just sit around the middle of the tank. They are ideal for a planted tank. They are very active and love interacting with plants. They'll attack any and all algae they come across, although it's usually an excercise in futility on their part, they are way too small to make any kind of dent in a serious algae problem.
I don't find them shy or skittish at all, quite the opposite. Fascinating to watch. They form a very distinct social group and they will battle and display for a while until an alpha male is chosen. He will be easy to spot as he gets bigger and more colorful then the others. After that a very very peaceful fish.
Good looking too. They will really color up in a planted tank, with gold , black, brown colors and very bright flashes of red and white which you may not see in the store but will develop in a good tank quickly. On the occasions when they do decide to school tightly and go on a group tour of the tank they are an awesome sight.
For me they are a "must have" in planted tank. It's a bit like having a flock of humming birds tending to your tank.

Penquins, I've never had but they are easily available in stores here. Never thought much of them. They seem to just sit there and float. Apart from the funny 45 degree angle they swim at I can't see much of interest about them. I've heard they can be a bit on the nippy side.

Black Neons are a good bet too. Very attractive fish. Bigger and much tighter schoolers then the normal Neon.

I've seen a lot of Lemon Tetras pop here recently and they've got my eye. Pretty enough, but seem really tight schooling and pretty active.Might give them a try.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

One of my Pencils !

bensaf attached this image:

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Wow. Just wow. The only complaint I have is that the lobelia looks rather...odd in it's current placement.

Bensaf,

The coral pencil really is as you said "eye candy" in a way though they look alittle like cherry barbs. The beckfords aren't exactly hurting in the looks department, but it sounds like the schooling is sporadic, but I definitely want some in the tank especially after seeing your photo and description. As far as the big school I'm looking for, I'd like to go with the black neons, but for some reason I think a bigger school of smaller tetras would be more of a WOW factor than a smaller school of bigger tetras like the black neon.

Cup,
Thanks for the tank compliments, your right I kinda just put the lobelia there. Not sure it fits, so I'll probably more it or take it out. It was a spur of the moment purchase. I think the plant is used to pave "streets" with it in aquascaping.



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Somehow I managed to miss all the posts on the previous page.

Green Water gone !!!!!

Musta been the NH3 which the purigen removed.

Great looking tank

Love Lobelia. I think it'll look good in the spot once it grows a bit. The leaf shape is a nice contrast to the Wisteria. It looks like emmersed growth, so it shouldn't brighten up and make more of a "statement" as time passes.

Congratulations

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Tetratech,

I think you should get a nice school of those red pencilfish even though they're pricey. They look like a redder version of nannostomus trifasciatus (three-lined pencilfish), which, according to the Baensch Atlas, "many hobbyists consider this the finest of the genus". I've never seen them IRL here, so must be quite rare. I have its cousin, nannostomus marginatus (dwarf pencilfish), and I love them! Very colorful, especially against dark substrate.

Those hockey stick tetras get quite big (I've seen some that are at least 3" long) - definitely bigger than the black neons. Also I don't think they would make as striking a contrast against a dark substrate vs. say cardinals, glowlights, or espei rasboras.

-P

Bensaf,
Thanks, not a hint of green (LF look away) and the water is looking really polished from the purigen.

Interesting thing with the Lobelia my bolivian ram is acting really funny with it. The ram has been covering the plant with the substrate. I've never seen it do this before. I read that some say this plant excretes toxins into the water. Have you ever heard this?



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Maybe the Ram doesn’t like its color

I am glad that you don’t have any green water anymore. So what is your current fertilizer routine?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Good one LF,

I'm really not dosing alot:

I've been adding 1/4 no3 and 1/16 po4 twice a week.
I've been doing 5ml traces once a week.
I haven't added the potassium at all. Figured I'm getting some anyway.

Also the eco contains alot of stuff.


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Here's another fish I saw a couple of weeks ago, but obviously I wasn't ready for them. Looks like they throw off some flourscent color. Has anyone kept emperor tetras? There are several different species (purpule, black)



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Tetra,

The latin name for Rams is Microphagus (sp?) which roughly translated means little earth mover. It's normal for Rams to decide to poke around and decide to re-arrange you substrate. Maybe he's looking for a pal. Get him a girlfriend, there more fun in groups. Even a couple of males (which I think I have) are fun, they bicker and squabble once in a while but nothing major, usually they hang out together. Maybe have a total of 3 , with the occassional bicker and squabble they'll be just like us

I've had the Purple emperors in the past. Nice fish, they color up beautifully given time, pretty active , don't really school though.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

I did not know that. Reason I was suprised is that I've had this ram for about a year and never saw it move the earth much, just a little when looking for food. I was going to ask you how many you have together. Here's a pic where it seems to have dug a hole behind the Lobelia






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I think they noramlly dig holes when they feel like breeding. Maybe he ....err....needs a cold shower

They seem quite social, I'd get him a friend , if you could get a female would be great, but as I said both my males seem to get on just fine. They are certainly far less territorial then the Blue Rams I used to have. They would have there own definate areas of the tank. The 2 Bolivians spend 90% of their time togather at the front of the tank. The only real squabble is at feeding , even then it's jus a push or two, no nipping or chasing. The Blues would chase one another all over.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I love both rams and have both but Bolivian rams, due to their size, can be more destructive for plants if they want to. which is when they breed. My couple, especially the male, uprooted all the Hemianthus "Cuba" in my tank, and then dug so many pits that my tank looked like London in the blitzkrieg. Although they bred only in one corner of the tank they made sure that all of it was uprooted, even bits at the other end of the tank. As much as I love them, I love(d) my Hemianthus as well so I moved them to the other tank where there are no small plants to attack and where I don't really care how much digging they do (which is a lot). So if you want to get your fish a friend, you might want to avoid getting a female. If you do get a female put some small slates in your tank which will minimise their digging in case they do want to breed as they prefer spawning on slates. Blue rams, even when spawning can't wreak as much havoc just because they're smaller.

Mind you, those fish are full of personality and each have a different one, so yours might not be anything like mine or like Bensaf's.

my tank looked like London in the blitzkrieg

I also prefer the Germans but the pair I bought didn't make it and died before I could move them into the big tank .

The Bolivians are quite a bit hardier and more forgiving when the water parameters are not optimal. I might just switch to them in a while. But I will wait with that until tetratech can send us pictures from his tank after a "bombardment" .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo,

I think that the number of the pits they dig and their depth depends mostly on how threatened they feel by other fish. In the tank where they are now they're only with two other fish who know better than to mess with them, so they only dug two pits and they weren't that deep. When they were in my bigger tank they were with cories and shrimps so they prepare several quite large pits and transferred the fry between those pits at least twice a day. The pits wouldn't have bothered me too much, but the destruction of the Hemianthus did as it was not an easy plant to get, and then not an easy plant to grow and then they came and declared war on it. I've collected the bigger bits (it's a very small plant) and replanted them, but it will take ages for it to make any difference, and by that time I hope to start with a new tank.

Tetratech, about the Eco Complete -- what size is it? Is it more like sand or more like gravel? I want to have sand in my next tank and if it is more like sand I will definitely use it as per Frank's five reasons for using Eco complete.

Untitled:
After all this talk about digging I guess I'll stick with the males. I don't want them wrecking the joint. As far as the eco and the grain size, that's an interesting question. Eco is has varied grain size and is suppose to automatically segregate in 2 layers, with the smaller grains on the bottom. But the latest batches I got most of it looked like sand size and goes up my python when I vac. If you want black sand I would go with the Tahitan Moon Sand from the same company (Carib-Sea)

LF:
tetratech can send us pictures from his tank after a "bombardment
Actually don't think my tank is all that bliss:
I have one ram a digging, two bristlenose hairgrassing and 3 pieces of alga on the back glass.

Last edited by tetratech at 15-Oct-2005 07:02

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A couple of developments today. I went to Aquarium Adventure (LF knows the place) and they really had some nice fish. Bolivian rams, chocolate cichlids, keyhole cichlids, beckford pencils, another more elongated pencil (maybe one line),apistogrammas, german rams, black neons.

I didn't love the way the bolivians looked and I was running out of time so I just played it save and picked up 3 beckford pencils and 5 black neons. The black neons were in a tank with a black background and black gravel and the blue line really looked great, so this could become my main school. I'll see how the 5 do. The beckfords look good although they actually look like my otos at first glance. I liked the chocolate cichlid but didn't know enough about them as well as the keyhole which I know gets about 6".

The surprising development (not a good one) is that my tank has a slight haze to it again, which I know will eventually turn green. Now I of course can't prove this but the tank was clear this morning and I dose my macros this morning.

Well maybe the willow will take care of it. See update in that thread.
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/65099.html?200510151215

My Scapes

I like the Black Neons a lot but I am not sure if they would stand out as well in my tank as they for sure will in yours. If you like how they shine in there then it is for sure a good pick for your large school.

I will keep my fingers crossed that your tank is not getting hazy again. Do you still have the Purigen in the filter? Maybe you are simply tired and it was your eye sight that failed you (I hope).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here's a pic of the black neon in my tank. The tank is maybe a little hazy this morning, but nothing to complain about. I actually screwed up the other day when I opened my filter I forgot to plug it back in so it was off for about 10 hours. I don't know if this contributed to the haziness. Not sure why it should, just thinking out loud.



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Here's a pic comparing day 5 and day 21 (this morning). Growth has really been superb. Tank was alittle hazy this morning, but cleared up within 2 hours. Plants doing their thing. I also have 4 branches of willow now sprouting roots. I'll have to stay on top of my nutrients see what's being sucked up. I'd like to try and compare suck up when branches are in and when their not.

Only problems right now are the bristlenoses. They are ruining my hairgrass and eating the lobelia.



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WOw tetra, already the aquascaping looks incredible. great job, can't wait to see it after the plants have grown in a bit. especially the hairgrass carpet.



Last edited by Megil Tel'Zeke at 16-Oct-2005 13:07

That tank is absolutely amazing looking. I wish you lived close by so you coudl help me do mine that well lol. Good Luck with your tank, and please keep posting those awesome pictures!

tetratech,

Lokking sharp, glad that the haziness was only temporary. Or, maybe given your own statement “I'm a little off today, drinking Cabo Tequila and Rum last nite”, maybe I wasn’t so off when I said that “your eye sight that failed you” .

I just love the way the Neon looks in your tank, but I am thinking now that a large school would add a lot of black to a black dominated tank. Maybe the more colorful pencils are better?

Growth is really nice; the Rotala is the dominant plant now. Also, the hairgrass does very well (unlike mine ).

Good job man,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks alot for the tank compliments. I really appreciate it and glad you enjoy the pics.

LF,
So far the pencilfish hover around the rotala and the Black Neons swim in the open, but other than the first hour in the tank they have not shown a tight schooling formation like rasboras, cardinals or rummys. Maybe I need to add more or a fish that scares them a bit.

Funny think about the haziness. It was three in the morning disappeared a few hours later than when I returned home this evening it was hazy again. Doesn't make much since. I guess it is the Tequila.

Last edited by tetratech at 16-Oct-2005 17:00

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Well there's Camouflage. This guys looks like my eco-complete. Actually my corrupted eco (note the white for the limestone)



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Last edited by tetratech at 16-Oct-2005 17:08[/font]

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Then there's the opposite.



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If your filter was down for 10 hours that's 10 hours when the bio colony in the filter were getting no water flow and no oxygen. $ hours is usually the max for this. Whatever bio colony you had in the filter was probably killed off. The haze you saw was probably a minor bacteria bloom.

I see the same thing if I overdo the cleaning of the canister filter. Get a light white haze for a few hours.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Yep, definitely thought about that. I guess I need to educate myself more on the livelihood of these little creatures. How does the bacteria in eco complete survive.

Eco Complete includes live Heterotrophic bacteria to rapidly convert fish waste into natural food for your plants. I guess they are of a different form to survive in a closed bag for who knows how long.

Last edited by tetratech at 16-Oct-2005 23:49

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yah the bacteria in eco-complete, are proably few and far between. never taken the time to look at the stuff under a microscope.

An addition to the filter being down for 10 hours thing:

I read that not only does the beneficial bacteria colony die off after 1 hour (some say even less) because of the lack of oxygen but bad bacteria is taking over in the canister (anaerobic sp?) and when the system restarts this bacteria is washed into the tank.

More than once did I read the suggestion that, in case of a longer canister down time, the water in the filter should be disposed off and the content should be cleaned (rinsed off) before the filter is restarted.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So I guess any good bacteria in the tank is sustained by the plants and some water movement by the fish, etc.

My Scapes

Yes, that’s right.

I bought a small battery powered air pump for just that purpose (power outage). It will keep the tank aerated and also create some surface agitation.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

My tank definitely has a slight green haze to it and I feel like I'm walking a tightrope to control it. One slip and I'm back to the green fog. What's baffling is I have the purgien in, 4 willow branches sprouting roots and now leaves. I don't think this is the biofilter dying anymore. BTW I never detected any NH3 after the filter was off. Plants are growing great. Bensaf I think I did say that. My plants have never grown this well. Add another beer to your count, well deserved. Here's a closer pick looking in from the upper right down to the center grouping. Very lush (for me anyway)



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Last edited by tetratech at 17-Oct-2005 10:17[/font]

BTW - Have you guys seen my other thread:
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/65329.html?200510170038

Last edited by tetratech at 17-Oct-2005 10:21

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No, I didn’t see your other thread until you mentioned it here (and I responded immediately after I saw it).

I hope your green water doesn’t return. Can it be that your Purigen is already “used up” and either needs to be replaced or re-vitalized?

Ingo

You just wait. Once I am done with my big sucker tank (whenever this may be) I will have to redo my 20 Long and my 29 .

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 17-Oct-2005 10:51

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Possibly the purigen needs to be charged. That would be quick but maybe with all the green it got used up quickly. I think you have to soak in bleach.

BTW - My current tank parameters

ph 6.6
kh 3
c02 24ppm
po4 1ppm
no3 10ppm
nh3 0ppm

This is pretty much where I wanted to be. (maybe alittle more co2) This was also taken in the morning. I've been turning on my co2 a few hours before lights and a few hours after lights out to soften the difference between day and nite. Just seemed like a good idea.




Last edited by tetratech at 17-Oct-2005 11:19

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tetratech,

You have to explain to me what you mean by softening the difference between day and night.

I am wondering what your CO2 values are just before you shut down the solenoid. If it is a few hours after lights out, it should be fairly high (maybe not yet as you don’t have too many plants in there) as both, CO2 system and plants, add CO2 to the water.

I am on Tom Barr’s side who says that there no reason to run CO2 when no light is on.

Please be so kind and measure your CO2 tonight. Maybe we can draw some conclusions (and suck Bensaf into another conversation).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You have to explain to me what you mean by softening the difference between day and night.
Sometimes I get a gut feeling about something and I try to back it up scientifically. I'm not saying this is a big deal either way (Bensaf keeps co2 24/7 right). My thinking is if I overlap the co2 after lights out there isn't as much time for the ph to raise overnite so there shouldn't be as much of an upswing. In the morning I start the co2 about 2 hours before lights on, so when those lights do come on there is already considerable co2 concentration in the water (my ph this morning was 6.6) so the plants can start enjoy their food early. I noticed my rotala was pearling before 11am this morning.
I would love to hear Uncle Ben's take on this.

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LF
My current tank parameters this morning and this evening were
ph 6.6 / 6.5
kh 3 / 3
c02 24ppm / 28ppm
po4 1ppm / 0.25ppm
no3 10ppm / 10ppm

If this is accurate, my po4 was sucked up but not really nitrate. Could be misleading if tank is still cycling and producing nitrate.

It's interesting to note that we each have hit a snag in our setups. You with so many flavors algae and me with tinted green water. Let's see:

LF - More light, more ferts, more plants, no biofilter at startup
TT - Less light, less ferts, some biofilter (eco-complete that contains live Heterotrophic Bacteria)



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I understand where tetra is going.

Yes I used to run Co2 24/7. I hasten to add this was purely for convenience rather then avouiding pH shifts or such. I don't have a solenoid so it was just simpler to leave the Co2 running all the time.

I've since moved away from that. I now kind of do half of what tetra is doing. I switch on the Co2 a few hours before lights on and switch off imeddiately after lights out (sometimes an hour before lights out , more on that later). This is, again, for no other particuilar reason other then convenience. I still don't have a solenoid. So I manually switch on/off the co2 my self. The reason it gets switched on a few hours before lights on is that's when I leave for work ! I know one day I'm going to run out the door to the office and forget to switch on the Co2 so a solenoid valve is definately on the shopping list (my birthday tomorrow guys, now's your chance to make an old man happy ) . I could get around this by leaving the Co2 on but put the reactor on a timer, only problem is I've noticed if I switch off the powerhead attached to the reactor, when I switch it back on the powerhead won't run unless I take it off the reactor and klet it get started. I don't trust this so leave the reactor running 24/7 and just switch on off the gas supply.

Getting back to the point in hand, the reason I changed to this way of running Co2 was that I noticed if I only had the Co2 running with the lights I could really pump in Co2 heavy during the day, then by switching off at night it was giving a lot more safety margin comfort to the fish. If I was to run at the high bubble rate I run now 24/7 I'm pretty certain I'd have a lot of dead fish.

During the day my pH is anywhere from 6.6 - 6.4 so I have 30-40ppm of Co2. Fish are fine during the day (plants are consuming Co2 and giving out O2) but if I run this rate during the night the fish how signs of discomfort within a couple of hours.

I'm getting much better results this way. With the high Co2, plants are definately more lush, BBA is knocked out I don't get a speck on the Anubias anymore.

One surprising thing I noticed: even though I switch off the Co2 immedtiately after lights out the pH hardly shifts at all ! My ph out of the tap is about 7.4 so I was expecting a big upward swing when the Co2 was off. That didn't happen ! It will still be close to 6.6 in the morning. I guess with running so high during the day there is still a good bit in solution in the water, this plus the co2 production at night is keeping the pH remarkably stable.

So based on my own experience and observations I'd say there nothing wrong with starting up a few hours before lights on, in fact it would be a good thing the plants are ready to go as soon as lights on. But if the reason for running the Co2 a few hours after lights out is the fish, I'd say it's actually safer to turn off Co2 immediately upon lights out ! Especially if you're running a high rate during the day (tetra is running about 5bps, similar to me), I think the risk of ODing the Co2 and harming the fish is much greater then the risk of a pH shift. As I said, from my own experience, if the Co2 is a good rate during the day, the pH won't shift much if at all during the night.

I definately won't be going back to 24/7 running.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

If this is accurate, my po4 was sucked up but not really nitrate

Sorry just saw the latest post.

The numbers make some sense. PO4 really really pushes Nitrate uptake. With your PO4 so low Nitrate uptake will drop.

Also bear in mind the lower your nitrate the more dodgy the test kits get. You may have a lot less NO3 then you think.

This is line with what predicted yesterday, with that kind of growth, you are in real danger of bottoming out. I'd go back up to the normal EI dosages. Assuming you are convinced that it's nothing to do with the GW ???

BTW, the plants look great. You have a real hold on trimming techniques, something I'm lousy at

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

Interesting and nicely detailed entry about your CO2 routine. It almost convinced me to start up my CO2 a little earlier, but I will think about it some more first. Also, I would need to get another timer and plug first, this would be then the 4th timer on the tank.

“my birthday tomorrow guys”

Now this revelation made me really mad . I was planning since a week to create a surprise “Happy Birthday” entry for you, and now you took all the fun out of it. Well, I will have another chance next year .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well let me simply say "HAPPY BIRTHDAY". I feel like I should get you something with all the help you've given me. Well maybe I'll think of something (Got some nice willow branches).

Anyway, my thought with the co2 on the backend was what Bensaf said. The co2 concentration will be ready for the plants. The continuing of the co2 after lights off, doesn't concern me because it's only a few hours (not sure, but does plant usage stop immmediately with no light or is there some lingering usage. Another thing with my setup is that I actually have alot of surface agitation,(probably too much) with my return running a little above the water line. My cheap ladder diffusor (original one from hagen kit) seems to be doing a pretty good job. Even with the surface agitation, I'm holding about 25 to 28 ppm.

I'll have to stay on top of my dosing. I'm really getting sick of testing though, especially when you can't believe the results. Still vexed by this GW thing, but reading threads on APC should me it's not all that uncommon and it seems most people cured it with lights out and slowly brining their lights back up. The willow branches are really rooting. I wonder if they are sucking up more po4 than no3. I have to see if they help clear the water, but that's another thread.

You too kind about the Pruning. Let's see how my tank looks in 2 months.




Last edited by tetratech at 18-Oct-2005 05:49

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Here's a couple of pics of the new fish. Bensaf can you ID these for me. Are they definitely Beckford. Many times LFS has them mislabeled.



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And the Black Neons amongst the willow.



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I like the one Neon who is looking into the camera.

I can see him think “What the heck is going on here?”

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

A list , a list

- Actually the plants will probably switch off well before lights off. When do your Rotalas fold up and close shop for the day ? Mine do a hour or so before lights out. This basically the plant done with photosynthesis for the day. I'd assume at that stage it's not consuming anymore Co2.

- Yep thems definately Beckfords. They'll color up real good in a couple days. You'll see alot more gold and the red and white on the fins will get much more intense. Then you'll see their true beauty. How many did you get? Let us know how you like them.

- Ingo, aw shucks, I didn't think anybody cared . Not even sure if the wife remembered. Anyway you've really pleasured me

- Testing is a pain in the rear. I'm sure you're getting a real feel now for how the plants react as you vary dosages, make changes etc. Trust your eye and watch the plants, keep an eye on pearling etc. Looking at the tank is alot more fun then staring at a test kit changing color

I'm feeling proud that my nephews are all grown up now

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

“Anyway you've really pleasured me”

Glad I could help

And sure do I care about your birthday as for the next 1.5 months you are going to be a year older than I am .

With regards to plants closing shop for the night – my Egeria Najas even let their heads hang down before the lights go off.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Looks like I'm the baby of the group and already a fish master.



Last edited by tetratech at 18-Oct-2005 16:48

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It seems like a quiet day on FP. I guess Bensaf took many members to celebrate his birthday. I'm actually kinda miffed I thought Bensaf would be celebrating the big day right here with me. He's probably hitting every pub in town and you know those senior discounts are hard to pass up. And after the "you've really pleasured me" thing with Littlefish, who knows where he is.

Anyway because of all the help you gave me I'd like to dedicate the following pics to you for your birthday. Without you and your constant meddling in my tank affairs these pictures would never have been possible.

First pic is day 1


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Last edited by tetratech at 19-Oct-2005 21:38[/font]

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Day 12



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Day 24 - Bensaf's Birthday

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Wisteria Grove. My bolivian swishes around in here like a clownfish in an anenome.



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Here's a closer look of my main area. Everything looks nice and lush, healthy. The magic of EI.



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Here's an even closer look of my stargrass and rotala. I like the way the stargrass works it's way around the rocks and hardscape.



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Last edited by tetratech at 19-Oct-2005 21:53[/font]

My Scapes

And finally. I hoped you "pearled all nite Bensaf" Happy Birthday.



tetratech attached this image:


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Gets better every time . Personally, I still think the lobelia should be moved closer towards the center, as it looks out of place in it's current placement.

In any case, what's the complete current stocking of the tank?

Thanks for the dedication.

Glad my "meddling" was of some help.

It looks real good, and as noodles said just keeps getting better.You can trim mine anytime.Errr...tank that is

You've done a superb job on the shaping and grooming.

You should be proud of that tank.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

"It looks real good, and as noodles said just keeps getting better.You can trim mine anytime.Errr...tank that is "

good lord.

tetratech,

I agree that it is becoming a very nicely arranged environment , albeit one that is not easy to maintain though.

If only the Hairgrass would start filling in some more. Mine doesn’t grow at all; it is barely hanging on to its original size.

And that is a very nice close-up of your Rotala.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks for all your nice comments

Cup_of_Lifenoodles:
Unfortunately the lobelia is being used as a salad bar by my bristlenose. As far as stocking:
Fish wise:5 black neons, 3 pencilfish, 2 rummys, 1 bolivian ram, 1 cory, 7 otos, 2 bristlenose
Plant wise: Stargrass, rotala, wisteria, dwarf hairgrass and a little java moss. I like big groupings of fewer species. I think it will show off a big school of fish better. I would like to have 30 or more of one species eventually.

Bensaf:
Thanks for the trimming accolades. I also as mentioned have only a few species, probably makes it simplier to do.
I'm starting to get some comments when people walk in my house "wow what a tank", "are those plants real" and my favorite was made by my wife a few days ago. "I really like the way the green stripe on the black neons matches the plants"

LittleFish:
The hairgrass I believe is being slowed by the BN uprooting and particles do some to attach to the leaves especially if the are too tall. I've been trimming any tall leaves and vaccuming them out.

albeit one that is not easy to maintain though
In what way do you think LF?


Last edited by tetratech at 20-Oct-2005 12:36

My Scapes

my favorite was made by my wife a few days ago. "I really like the way the green stripe on the black neons matches the plants

Not quite "your eyes are like dark limpid pools I could lose myself in", but eh we'll take it. We are a sad bunch of men.

LF,

Indica and Stargrass are about the 2 easiest stem plants to maintain. They take a good hack with the trimming scissors very well. The more you trim the bushier they get. A lot of other stem plants wouldn't take as kindly to such treatment.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

We are a sad bunch of men
Actually I prefer "manchild" thank you!

Is it true that the rotala will only grow 12" to 15" max. A few more cuttings I'll probably have to replant tops.

I also didn't realize the pencilfish like the algae. See them picking at the stop algae on the glass (yes LF I do have some algae).



My Scapes

No it'll grow much taller then that and then just continue along the surface. If you let it hit the surface it should produce a lot of side shoots.

I thought I mentioned the Pencilfish would keep pecking at the algae (or maybe you guys gave up on listening to me), but yeah they'll poke at all day , they're too small to make much of a dent though.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

“albeit one that is not easy to maintain though
In what way do you think LF?”

Well, my thoughts plant by plant

Wisteria – Will eventually grow taller and create a stem like structure (although I am not too experienced with this plant). This would take away from the focus area.
Star Grass – By constantly trimming the tops, that upper area will get very dense. The bottom parts (stems and lower leaves) will not receive enough light anymore and turn black and die off.
Rotala – I though I even saw this one mentioned by Bensaf somewhere, but here is my observation. Constant trimming will make the stems look ragged and at some point the stems will have to be taken out and replaced with new cuttings. That process could be a little tricky as it is in such a tight spot between the rocks.

All plants – grow fast, aka high pruning frequency.

And no – we are not a sad bunch of men – we are as interesting as it gets

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Wisteria – Will eventually grow taller and create a stem like structure (although I am not too experienced with this plant). This would take away from the focus area. It's funny I mentioned in my 12g thread that the wisteria is not making a move to the surface. the stems are creeping along the substrate. I've been cutting this plant down so long, that I think "I trained this puppy"

Star Grass – By constantly trimming the tops, that upper area will get very dense. The bottom parts (stems and lower leaves) will not receive enough light anymore and turn black and die off.
Yes that is true, and what I've been doing and it might be too early to tell if it will work long-term, but in addition to shearing on the top I've been triming about two-thirds down some stems from the center to make sure light gets in. We'll see.

Rotala – I though I even saw this one mentioned by Bensaf somewhere, but here is my observation. Constant trimming will make the stems look ragged and at some point the stems will have to be taken out and replaced with new cuttings. That process could be a little tricky as it is in such a tight spot between the rocks.
Yes, this I believe will happen, but the area behind the rock is actually quite large and accessable. It's tough to tell from the photo.

Last edited by tetratech at 21-Oct-2005 07:19

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Constant trimming will make the stems look ragged and at some point the stems will have to be taken out and replaced with new cuttings. That process could be a little tricky as it is in such a tight spot between the rocks.

It's relative. All stem plants will end up looking ragged at the bottom at some stage and need to be uprooted and the bottoms discarded. Some can go quite a long period before having to do this.

Some stem plants need to be uprooted everytime they are trimmed and the bottoms cut off. Plants like Cambomba, Myrio, Ammania,R.Macrandra. This is mainly an appearance thing. These plants are used and look best for their strong vertical shape. Cutting the top off just ruins that shape. Some, like the Ammania and Cambomba don't produce new shoots easily if at all, so topping is not a good thing.

Plants like the Indica and Stargrass take the haircuts relatively well,and get bushier, which is what we want from them, so you can go longer without having to uproot. If the bottoms are well hidden and still get a good amount of light you may never have to uproot them.

You need to bear these things in mind when choosing a location for the plant. Stems should be planted in areas that are easy to access. The plants around them should be carefully chosen, to avoid too much shading or maintaining a certain height to cover the stems behind.

Certain stem plants produce massive root systems, Reineckii and , surprisingly, Macrandra have root systems like a Sword plant, give them some space otherwise everytime you uproot them you also uproot whatever is too close to them.

One of the things I really like about working with a sand substrate now is that it's much easier to maintain. Uprooting a plant doesn't make a huge mess like before and rooting a plant is 100 times easier then using bigger gravel. Just push it in and it's stuck there

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

Thanks for your detailed explanation on the trimming routine that is required for the various stem plants, in particular your information on the R.Macrandra. Guess I will have quite some re-planting to do with that one . BTW, mine is just starting to branch about half way up. Wouldn’t that ruin the vertical growth appearance?

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You need to bear these things in mind when choosing a location for the plant. Stems should be planted in areas that are easy to access. The plants around them should be carefully chosen, to avoid too much shading or maintaining a certain height to cover the stems behind.
That's why I'm still a beginner when it comes to aquascaping. There really is a lot that goes in to selection, location. Although I do believe the general statement (Bensaf I think you said this) that if the plants are healthly you could almost drop them in anywhere and it's going to look beautiful, compared to a tank where the plants are unhealthly and located very strategically.

One of the things I really like about working with a sand substrate now is that it's much easier to maintain
I must confess that I didn't realize you were using sand in your "Amano Paradise" setup. The grain size looks very large. How does it compare to the pool filter sand.

Last edited by tetratech at 22-Oct-2005 07:27

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How does it compare to the pool filter sand.

Well it's silica sand hence the larger grain size. I'm not using fine beach sand. It's just ths same as the pool filter sand I think.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Day 28 (1 Month) Update:

Pros - plants, hairgrass growth, water clarity
Cons - Spot algae on glass, some black on stargrass, hairgrass damage by BNs.

I think I need to trim more frequently, I'm not used to all this growth.

Also the rock to the right in front of the stargrass, I'm starting to dislike. I think it's too evenly cut and I need a more natural looking piece.

Here's the fist pic a full shot:



tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 23-Oct-2005 09:26[/font]

Last edited by tetratech at 23-Oct-2005 12:14

My Scapes

This shot shows the slope I created from center to side.



tetratech attached this image:


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This is a closer look at the Hairgrass, it's definitely coming in despite the damage from my BN. Look at BN squatting on my nice grass.



tetratech attached this image:


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A pic of the wisteria. Growth continues to be wide and low some of the leaves are hugh. Don't you love the Willow root section of my tank. I'm thinking new biotope.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

tetratech,

I like the growth in your tank. Spot algae are normal for a healthy tank and should be taken care off during your weekly water change.

I see that your hairgrass is growing, mine just ain’t .

About the rock and how even it looks: Instead of replacing it, have you thought about adding some moss to it? That would look nice (IMHO).

Say, did you get your ballast and if so then how long are the second lights on for? I upped mine from 3 hours to 5 just about 4 days ago (after I reduced them from 10 to 3 about 10 days ago).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

SPOT ALGAE
Yes, been doing scraping it during WC and I have some very fat and jolly otos in my tank. I also picked up two Yamato shrimp, haven't seen them since I put them in.

HAIRGRASS
Is growing, but like the moss everything get's stuck in it.
so it's alot of maintenance. BTW do you know if hairgrass sends out runners below and above the subtrate.
ROCK
I have thought about that but as I stated above the java moss has been a pain in my tank. But I might give it another try under present tank conditions. Also my theory with the most relates to obviously water movement. In our co2 tanks we aren't over filtered. Not much water movement good for co2 as far as service agitation. So because there's no strong water current and I believe the nutrients contribute to the amount of stuff getting stuck in the moss. BTW is your moss doing better based on the add'l powerheads or do you think it's because the algae has slowed.
BALLAST
I actually ended up buying a new light (Coralife dual 192watt 6700k) because the ballast was going to cost me $80 and my bulbs were old and they go for around $40 each so the whole reflector wasn't much more. BTW the quality of the coralife over the current usa is much better. As far as light cycle I have 96watts from 9 to 8 and 192 watts from 12 to 4 right now. Similiar to you.

My Scapes

tetratech,

I have by now 8 Otos in my tank and I am lucky if I see 6 of them. It drives me crazy if I can’t account for all habitants as I always worry they might be dead somewhere in the plants.

My hairgrass seems to have some strings with nodes that grow straight into the water current, but don’t have any ground contact. Is that the runners and if so what do I do with it? I find these strings now also tangled in other plants.

I don’t know if and why my moss is doing better, although it looks better as most of the covering brown slime is gone (ran out of gas ). It could have something to do with the current but the event coincided with the decline in silica. BTW current, I don’t think that a current in the tank would cause too much CO2 exchange as long as you don’t create any ripples on the surface. I either place my power heads so far down that this is avoided or I point the nozzle slightly downwards.

Glad you got a new light, when I was shopping I also considered a Current fixture. Somehow I ended up with the CoraLife as it was a) cheaper and b) I already have a 65W unit on my 29G that I am very happy with. I will have to order another set of legs though as one broke off during my plant work this weekend – the unit slipped too far back and all the weight ended up on that leg, so it caved in. I am not too wild about an outside Reactor as it shows over the top of the tank frame (at least the one that the Doctors sell). Neither do I desire heaters that are built into the filter for cost reasons; the ones that are inline seem to be interesting though.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

My hairgrass seems to have some strings with nodes that grow straight into the water current, but don’t have any ground contact. Is that the runners and if so what do I do with it? I find these strings now also tangled in other plants.

Where the nodes there when you planted the hairgrass? If yes, those you need to cut. I thinks that emersed growth. Either way the hairgrass needs to be cut to help horizontal runner growth.

Yes you are right about the co2, As long as the current is under water. I was just making the point that we tend to have last current in our big tanks because of the tank size in relation to our gph rates.

I actually only purchased a 36" fixture for my 48" tank. The light is setting on tow plastic bumpers atop the glass canopy. The 48" fixture would have given me about 3.7 wpg. I did not want that much. Speaking of canopies, are you eventually going to get the full canopy on top of the tank. It really finishes it off and isolates the tank itself, because the escaping light is not seen.

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tetratech,

No way am I getting a full canopy for my tank. I love the high tech look of the light unit hovering over the tank (I have the clear legs that are less visible). The only light that escapes my light unit is the one that is reflected of the glass top and I don’t mind that at all.

Full canopies, IMHO, also appear way too bulky and give the tank an over-head, if you know what I mean.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Whoa, someones does like full canopies
Actually what I meant with light escaping, is that the canopy blocks all light from your eye other, so the only thing that you look at is the inside of the tank. Best way to describe it is when your in a museum or public aquarium the lights are dimmer and the exhibits really stand out. Downside obviously is you have to remove to work on the tank. I had one on my 46g and it looked really good, then again my tank is in my kitchen, so I have to appease the wife.

My Scapes

Yeah – I love full canopies ]:|]:|]:|



If I had the spare change I would buy one of these fancy light units that are suspended from the ceiling.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Don't get me excited.

Now your making me think of an open topped aquarium with the driftwood and plants coming above the water line with the suspending Halide lighting. Stop please, stop

Last edited by tetratech at 24-Oct-2005 12:51

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Actually here's a pic of my old 46 showing some of the canopy. Man look at all the java moss.

tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

You for sure had a nice moss carpet going

What is that plant in the back there, Narrow Leaved Ludwigia?

And look at that, hm, lovely huge block on top of the tank.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That was all polysperma in the back and a few stems of Cabomba in front of the diffusor.

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Hi,
This is what I did to my StarGrass by clipping it
very very short, and then snipping some at about half
way to the surface.

Frank


FRANK attached this image:


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Frank that looks really nice. How soon after you clipped was that picture taken. The leaves look much smaller than mine and also have a pinkish hue to them. Your Stargrass almost looks like me rotala.



My Scapes

Your Stargrass almost looks like me rotala.

It is - it's Rotala Rotundifolia.

Water flow is important for spreading nutrients and Co2 enriched water around the tank. A small pump or 2 will do the job without increasing surface agitation.Doesn't need to be blasted out, very small pump will do it, just move the water around without blowing the plants out of the substrate. Having the spraybar on the side glass and blowing aross the lenght of the tank works well. Some plants, like Java Fern (and Moss) do better with a gentle current.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,
Thanks for the reality check. I thought I was losing it. That must be the stargrass on the bottom really cut short.

My Scapes

hey tetratech,

I have to ask you again about the Purigen.

As I am going to place an order with Big Al's tomorrow anyways, I am considering getting some Purigen. Despite your tellings, here is part of the description from Big Al's:

"Purigen removes proteins, nitrites and nitrates, ammonia, and a broad spectrum of organics, yet its impact on trace elements is minimal."

So it takes out the nitrates? I thought you said it didn't.

Your confused (as usual ) log buddy,

Ingo

EDIT: and what is the size of the bag that you used for it?

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 25-Oct-2005 12:56

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sorry, I'm not tetratech, but I will try to answer.

Purigen doesn't remove nitrates as such, it just removes nitrogenous waste which would otherwise break into ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. It shouldn't remove all of it anyway, and it doesn't remove nitrate when dosed as KNO3.

What you do have to pay attention to is that Purigen shouldn't be used with amine based water conditioners. Actually, you can use it, but only once as amines bind to the Purigen and then recharging will make it toxic for reuse. If you use Prime then you need not worry. I don't know about other conditioners.

Other than that I think it's an excellent product, but that's just me and what do I know?

Yup,
It's rotilla, sold as Stargrass, and thus embedded within
the grey matter incorrectly.
In any event, I treated as a Bonsai plant. I kept trimming
and trimming it I would trim a stem, and it would grow
a couple of replacement stalks which in turn were trimmed
etc. Eventually I wound up with that "ball" or mass of
plant.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

LF,

Pretty much what UNTITLED said. It removes waste before it breaks down into nh3,n02,n03. Do I know if it's doing anything? Absolutely NOT. Is my water clear? Absolutely YES, but I also have 5 willow branches and I'm dancing around the tank once a day. I bought a 100ml pouch, that's suppose treat 100 gallons. It is also reuseable. They also sell it loose that you have to put it in your own fine size filter bag.

Frank,

They sold rotala as stargrass. Now I've heard everything.

My Scapes

I'm dancing around the tank once a day.

Careful, people, the boy's losing it :%):%)

Got this strange picture of tetra in a grass skirt, bone through the nose,the words fish master daubed on his body with Purigen residue, spinning and chanting around the tank while offering sacrifices of KNO3 and Flourish to the Planted Tank Gods and trying to invoke Tombarrus the algae avenging demon from the netherworld.

It ain't pretty.



Ok, suddenly I'm not sure who's losing it

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

Don&#8217;t worry &#8211; you are not losing it. I am sure you lost it already a long time ago.

Untitled and tetratech &#8211; Thanks, so I will go ahead and order it, maybe it does something.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Got this strange picture of tetra in a grass skirt, bone through the nose,the words fish master daubed on his body with Purigen residue


Thanks Bensaf. That's a great idea for my halloween costume this year. Think people will get it? Well I'm doing it I don't care what the wife says.

Untitled and tetratech &#8211; Thanks, so I will go ahead and order it, maybe it does something
I would try the dance first in full costume.

Last edited by tetratech at 26-Oct-2005 13:20

Last edited by tetratech at 26-Oct-2005 19:23

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Update 31
Everything is going good fish and plant wise. So since I'm still waiting for Bensaf to post some new pics of his "Bensaf does Amano" tank here's the same boring pic of mine. I personally think Bensaf has an algae problem and is waiting for it to clear up. :88)

LF I think your right about the Stargrass, my grouping to the right grows better than the one to the left and it's the one that gets some current from the return which is located above the rotala and angled to the right.

I've also decided to start growing the wisteria to the left side too. I think some green was needed near the rocks and wood over there. The rotala is growing so fast it literally needs to be trimmed everyday.

tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 26-Oct-2005 19:48[/font]

Last edited by tetratech at 26-Oct-2005 19:51

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Pic 98.8k doesn't go through.




tetratech attached this image:


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Any chance on more color variation, not that it doesn't look great already?

Hey Cup,

I might put something inbetween all those rocks in front of the main grouping. There's actually dwarf hairgrass there that is coming in, but it's tough to see.

My Scapes

I personally think Bensaf has an algae problem and is waiting for it to clear up.

Sorry to disappoint you. Nope, no algae. Just been real busy. Have a long vactaion here next week, it's the end of Ramadhan, which is like Christmas here in Indonesia, so it's been hectic getting everything in work cleared up before the shutdown.

Plus I made a few small changes. Move the Reineckii further back, it was too distracting were it was and put some Rotala Rotundifolia in it's place, it's about 2 or 3 trimmings before it can even bedin to compete with yours and Franks !

Also added some Rotala Macrandra to the right side to break up the divison between stems and rossettes. That stuff grows like a weed, goes from a few inches to the surface in a week ! Lots of hyperactive pearling.

So I get one area trimmed, later trim another area, by the time that's finished , the first area needs trimming. I'm like a dog chasing it's own tail.

Well I'll have plenty of time next week to whip it into shape, so pics will be coming.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

LF I think your right about the Stargrass

Glad I am right about at least one thing

Bensaf - your tank must be like the San Francisco Golden Gate Bridge. They start painting on one end and once they reach the other they have to start all over again . Good that you have vacation next week so you can spend a lot of time on here to get our tanks up to snag .

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 27-Oct-2005 03:41

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Errr....maybe I should elaborate.

The end of Ramadhan means the bars are open fully again.
Guess where I'll be ?:88)

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Oh come Bensaf, I'm sure your scaping skills are still above average even after a night at the pub. :%)

Small gliTCH I gots ICH.
Noticed at on my Black Neons this morning. I thing it's from a small drop maybe 1 to 2 degrees overnite. Heaters at 78f but room temp dropped to 70f. I also thing I'm cutting it thin with my one 250 watt visi-therm. Should probably put another heater on the other side. I've already dosed coppesafe at half strength and I'm raising temp a few degrees. Speaking of raising temp, do you guys raise the heater setting in colder weather?

Last edited by tetratech at 27-Oct-2005 12:51

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tetratech,

I seriously doubt that the Ich is from a slow drop in temps over night by 2 degrees. I am rather sure that you create a much faster temp change when you do a water change.

About heaters in winter: for some reason my tanks are getting warmer (78 up to 80 now).

I will elaborate more later, have to go to a meeting now&#8230;

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 27-Oct-2005 12:55

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey fantastic tank tetra, well done. My only comment is that, from that last pic you posted, it looks like that rock on the left side has a big afro

I'm sure once the hairgrass grows in it'll look much more proportional, but right now I can't look at it without picturing a green-haired Jimi Hendrix.

Sorry bout the ich, by the way. I luckily haven't gotten the stuff for over a year now. I'm pretty sure the temp treatment still applies even when outside temperature drops... but if anything it's all the more important to keep it constant. A second smaller heater on the other side may be a good investment, as you've said.

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Back in the saddle!

green-haired Jimi Hendrix

NowherMan, whatever your on, me, LF and Bensaf want some.

I think your talking about the big rock in the middle. There's actually three main rock pieces (might be tough to see dark pic). The rotala is growing so fast I can't even keep up with the trimming, it's definitely overdue.

Last edited by tetratech at 27-Oct-2005 13:11

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NowherMan, whatever your on, me, LF and Bensaf want some

I think I overdosed NO3 in my green tea this morning. Diagnosis - do a large water change, cut back on macros, shorten photoperiod.

And yes, I'm talking about the big rock towards the middle, the one with the rotala growing like mad... Hendrix Rock, if you will...

::ahem::

I'm actually kind of bummed I haven't been following along this Log more closely, there's some really good info in here. I'm talking about that info regarding green/ cloudy water being caused by ammonia and too much light. All along I - and I know many others - have been thinking it happens when there's too much NO3, or just too many nutrients hanging in the water column. I had one such problem several months back, and even running a diatom didn't help... it would come back in a matter of days. Then on a whim I added some hornwort and it was gone in a day. I thought it was because the hornwort was consuming excess nitrates, not excess ammonia... and here I must've been mini-cycling the whole time

Anyway, really great stuff you all have going on here. Very helpful.

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Back in the saddle!

I hope none of the "fishie" folks read this

I never treat Ich. Never had to. Not that I haven't had Ich in the tank, it just simply doesn't survive long.

Reason? The temperature. Living in the tropics I don't use a heater, quite the opposite I have to find ways to keep the water cool. I have a small fan attached to the top of the tank that runs for a few hours mid day to keep things cooled down.

If Ich ever shows up the fan goes off and the tank temp naturally rises to about 30o. This doesn't bother the fish at all, hey I'm in the tropics , if they couldn't take this natural rise from the outside temp they'd all be extinct by now.

Ich dissapears within 2 days, never ever gets out of hand, never more then a few spots. 2+ years never lost a fish to Ich. Usually only see it when new fish are introduced, even then it takes a week or so for the first spots to show up (so it may not be the temp drop in your case).

Most Ich meds and salt are very very hard on plants. The ones using dyes like Methylene Blue etc are lethal.

So I don't use meds just let the tank take care of it.

You find in a tank with a lot of healthy plants that fish rarely ever get sick. Their recovery time seems a lot quicker too. The high oxygenation, clean water, natural interactive environment and feeling of security that plants provide is an absolutely enormous factor in reducing stress and producing strong healthy happy fish.
Go to any planted tank specilist site and you will find very very few posts relating to sick fish.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

tetratech,

I would not recommend that you raise your tank temperature to 300 degrees, as Bensaf suggests

No seriously, I am sure you know all the things that are to be done to reduce the chance of a serious outbreak, like medicine, gravel vacuum (remove the &#8220;fallen off&#8221; stage), raised temperature. I wonder if you have the luxury to move the fish out of the tank (all of them) and treat in their temporary home. This way your plants will have no problems.

I had 2 Ich bouts in my 29G and treated with Quick Cure, both times without any losses (that I can directly attribute to the med). I used a &#188; dosage every other day for 2 weeks straight, with water changes on the days between dosing (including gravel vac). All plants in the tank did just fine, including my Rotala and Star Grass.

Once again though, I seriously doubt that a lowering of the temp over night by 2 degrees is a reason for an Ich outbreak &#8211; except if your fish are stressed for other reasons already and their immune system is way down. Temperature changes are a natural occurrence in every body of water, for example because of high sun vs. nighttime, or heavy rains, or snow melts in the mountains that carry cold water downstream. Did you ever have a power outage for a day/night? My tank dropped over 10 degrees last April with no consequence.

If the temp should be the trigger then I would say your fish are stressed for other reasons as well. One thing that I could think of is that you have very few hiding places for the Neons. Is any other fish chasing them? Also, the group of 5 is insufficient to give them a sense of security (just guessing).

Anyway, no matter what caused it, I hope you can beat it successfully.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I don't get ich, (sure fire way to get it!)

I run my tanks at around 79/80. which is probably too high, but everyone is growing and seem good.

I do have other disease problems though, random deaths and long sickness - although I more or less traced that back to water treatments and cleaning by the water company! I think high temps and stable fish populations(ie don't buy loads of news fish all at once)have a lot to do with not getting ich?

Actually the main reason why I am posting is cos I am going to the LFS today, new 6700k lights and loads of simple plants.

be prepared for questions boys!!!

GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

As was very surprised I got ICH. Could be the fish were sick when I got them. The tank is very lush, plants are pearling, no aggressive fish in the tank. LF I doubt if it's because I only have 5 neons (I think that's a stretch)
Temp had been a steady 78F and I noticed the other morning dropped to 76F. I didn't think in nature temp drops by 2F in a few hours.

Living in the tropics I don't use a heater, quite the opposite I have to find ways to keep the water cool
What temp fluctations do you have overnite, if any?


My Scapes

What temp fluctations do you have overnite, if any?

It's goes from damn hot and humid to just hot and humid.

Only about 2 to 5 degrees tops. Very little seasonal change. We have hot and dry and hot and wet.

I suffer more then the fish.

The rainy season has just started. Tropical storm at 5 every evening like clock work. Quickly followed by a infestation of the insect du jour. I have a team of lizards running wild in the apartment to keep the insect population under control. I have had bats get into the bathroom. I found a snake outside the main door. Woke up morning after a night of heavy rain to find hundreds of fish flopping around the car park.I live outside town, it really is a jungle out there

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I have a team of lizards running wild in the apartment to keep the insect population under control. I have had bats get into the bathroom. I found a snake outside the main door. Woke up morning after a night of heavy rain to find hundreds of fish flopping around the car park.I live outside town, it really is a jungle out there
I'm very envious. I'm actually a big herp guy. I want to eventually do a paludarium, with chamelons in the branches above and fish swimming through the branches below. But for now it's just a dream.

My Scapes

You can have my kitchen then. The biggest lizard lives under the stove, about 6 inches. One of them must have been breeding 'cos we're finding lot's of little one inchers around the apartment.

I don't mind them at all. They keep the bugs away. Haven't seen a cockroach in yonks. I'l take the lizards over the roaches anyday.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Are you talking about "cicak", bensaf?
If so, I love them - they eat the mozzies and roaches. Well, except that one time when one dropped on my neck accidentally. Felt something cold and wiggly on the back of my neck - freaked me out a little.

-P

Day 34 Pic

I started adding wisteria and now stargrass to the left front rock area to spread the green alittle, but still keep the high in the focal point. This pick also shows the hairgrass coming in better, BN still trampling it. BTW - does dwarf hairgrass spread runners above substrate as well as below or is that my BN ruining.

Tank is looking good, except for some ICH. So far it's only affecting the Black Neons, dosing coppersafe and temp raised to 82f. Got a really high po4 reading last nite, like 5ppm. I give up. I've only been dosing the following.

1/4 tsp no3 twice/weekly
1/16 tsp po4 twice/weekly
Flourish 5ml once/weekly
Flourish postassium 2ml once/weekly

I know it's not the eco, I'm not a heavy feeder.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

IMe dwarf hairgrass spreads through runners that are extremely close to the suface, though i will occasionally send runner deep beneath the substrate. if they are above the surface it is more tha likely you BN fault.

I think your right, the BN kinda sits on the grass and sucks on the leaves pulling them out. I might move him, but go try and catch him.

My Scapes

Man tetratech,

It looks very nice, in particular because I can see your hairgrass carpet for the first time. Good idea to add some green to the left side.

About the phosphate, are you sure you have none in the tab water? If it isn&#8217;t the tab, the feeding, and the Eco Complete, then what is left there? Maybe the rocks? I have no idea either.

Good luck with the Ich,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Lf,

I've tested my tap p04 levels "0". I don't feed alot so I don't think it's the fish food, although I haven't been doing alot of heavy duty vaccumming with the water changes because oof the cycling and also because the eco is like sand in many parts of the tank. That and I've been doing 30% wc not 50%, so that might add up, but the way the plants are growing I'm still surprised.

My Scapes

tetratech,

I did some calculations regarding your Phosphates and the info you provided. A few assumptions had to be made:

* based on Chuck&#8217;s Calculator, 1/16tsp of Phosphate (KH2PO4) dissolved in 72G concludes in 0.75ppm.
* Added twice per week concludes in 1.5ppm per week added.
* 1 - 30% Water Change per week (if done more often, values will be lower).
* Assumed is that the Phosphate dissolves equally with in the water column.
* Zero uptake is assumed (if uptake happens, values will be lower).

That said, I come to the conclusion that the maximum Phosphate concentration ever to be reached is 5ppm just before the water change. After that you reached equilibrium where addition and change is balanced. This point should be reached at 19 weeks.

If you tested your Phosphates before the water change (week 5) then a reading of 4.41ppm would be in line with this math example. If you tested after the water change then you should never have 5ppm.

Ingo

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is the same example, but with the water changes twice a week between the addition of Phosphates:

The maximum reading before water change should be a 2.5ppm.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:


Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 30-Oct-2005 03:28[/font]

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You people have too much time on your hands, honestly.

Either that or you really enjoy testing for phosphates (I won't knock it as I've never tried it) and discussing it in detail. Personally, I don't see any algae in your tank and I really don't understand why you keep testing it.

I love discussing Phosphates

tetratech has a phosphate phobia (and I guess I do as well) based on his really bad experience with his initial Eco Complete substrate. I am sure he can, and will, tell you more about it.

I can tell you that my Phosphate issue is based on my readings of &#8220;The Krib&#8221; website, in particular the Collin Sears paper and the follow-up discussions. I know Bensaf says that the findings of these days are by now outdated, but it has a major impact on me.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
Thanks for the analysis. So that does make sense mathematical, but I guess I assumed uptake would keep the po4 number always low. I have good plant health, etc, so is this further confirmation that the plants really only use a tiny amount or it's a bad test kit, although I've never had a problem with my po4 kit.

Another thing too, I have 5 willow branches, supposely sucking out nutrients and I'm still getting large po4 readings. I'm going to remove the branches and see if I get green water again.

Untitled:
We don't have too much time on our hands, what LF, Bensaf and myself do, we do for the good of all aquarists. We are martyrs for the rest of you, we sacrifice time with family, friends, etc. for the pursuit of perfection.




Last edited by tetratech at 30-Oct-2005 06:55

My Scapes

I also love to spend time on my tank in the pursuit of perfection, or at least a pleasing result. But I was just wondering why you two are still so bothered about PO4 if you now have 5ppm PO4 and no algae?

I can offer some new topics for conversations if you're interested...

Untitled,

Hm, when was the last time you looked at my log? No algae, I don't think so. Wanna have some of mine ?

I got the purigen, but I am too chicken to use it. I am afraid it would filter out the microscopic food for my Espei fry (as I don't feed them explicitly in any form).

Ingo

PS: Let's hear the other topics that you have in mind, I am always open to add to my confusion :%).

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I have had the worst day, got some great plants but have ended up getting stuck on stupid DIY rubbish and suffering seriously from owning too much worthless rubbish, I have whinged to my BF who was is and always will be lovely but this thread has just made me laugh and laugh and laugh.

THank you. seriously there are tears in my eyes.

my new plants - all low light and simple are currently in the bath.......... the tank they are to go in is in the loft. ho hum time is 11.30. pm

and me? I am taking apart a cupboard thing which has far too many screws.

but my BF, chocolate and this thread = light relief and happiness.

and some actually useful infomation.

GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

Little Fish,

I also look at your log and I do see the algae. That's why I didn't post my "don't worry about phosphates" in this one and not yours... However, if I'm not mistaken, you're getting much less algae now, don't you? I have the feeling that you're dealing with persistent algae rather than flourishing algea. In other words, your existing algae is surviving while no new algae is growing. If that is the case then all you need to do is get rid of what you have and no new algae will grow. Possible solutions (in a list form for your pleasure):
1. Removing it manually, a little everytime until your tank is clean.
2. Dipping plants in bleach solution to kill the remaining algae (wouldn't do that to your moss, though).
3. Overdosing flourish excel for about a week to kill the algae.

I must say that I've never tried overdosing excel myself. A warning: there are discussions going around whether this method is safe for your fish or not, and for a tank your size it's not going to be a cheap solution.

As for the Purigen, I think you give it much more credit than it deserves. It clears the water to an astonishing degree, but it doesn't sterilise, it's not a UV lamp.

I'd like to dedicate a few pics to my Bolivian Ram. Many times this fish takes a back set to the German Blue Ram because of the it's lack of color. But lately my Bolivian has really been showing some nice color. This fish I believe is one of the best fish to have in a S.A. setup. It's colorful, hardy and has a great personally with alot of expression.

This pic shows off some of it's color:



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

And this one shows some personally. A really great fish.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Wow an amazing ram I wish mine was that colorful. What do you feed?

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons

bcwcat22
I basically feed tetra tropical crisps, hikari algae wafers and frozen blood warms once a week.
His colors might also been an indicator of water quality. A have a pretty big load of healthly plants right now which is probably making the water very o2 rich and good for the fish.

My Scapes

algae wafers?? never thought of that. Mine has ok color but it is in kinda a small tank though I keep the water quality pretty well have had some serious buffer problems though. Thanks for the info I always want to improve my feeding variety whenever I can.

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons

I feed the wafers to the tank, cause I have bristlenose plecos, but I notice the ram eats alot of it too. In fact I see him trying to wrestle the sinking algae wafer away from the plecos.

My Scapes

I'd like to point out that those phosphate charts assume that there is absolutely NO PO4 whatsoever in your tap water. That is quite an assumption to make, and one I wouldn't bet the farm on. I have enough phosphates in my tap water that I've never dosed ANY K2PO4 supplements. Some areas might have enough PO4 to cause problems in tanks.

Nice Ram by the way tetra...looks like quite a character!

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

Good point on the p04 charts. I actually have a zero po4 reading out of the tap, but I know many others do not.

Big question really is, how high is too high with po4. This seems to be of great debate, obviously the relationship to the no3 number is important, but to keep po4 of 5ppm you would technically need no3 of 50ppm and that would make me uncomfortable.

My Scapes