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A closer shot of the front of the tank. You could see I removed the wisteria from the middle and it'a pretty much Blyxa there. I'm not sure I love it, I need to fine-tune and blend it more with the surrounding flora. I like this shut because you could clearly tell it's a bowfront tank with the black edging left in.



tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 04-Jan-2006 22:16[/font]

My Scapes

Here's a shot of the rotala that has come back. I see alot of red, so I guess the UV isn't having a big impact on the availability of FE for the plants.





tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Hi,
I missed something... Why would a UV light affect the
Fe in a tank?
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

tetratech,

You never bore us with pictures , except if you show us the Wisteria in 10 shots in a row from just slightly different angles .

I think there is some wonderful healthy growth there. In particular the Star Grass put out some large leaves.

Why did you remove the Blixa from the right side?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Frank

It has been said that UV light oxidizes some traces, most notably Fe making it unusable by the plants. I haven't been able to find any scientific data to back this.


LF,
Thanks, I was just going to upload my wisteria photo album.
I removed the Blyxa from the right because I thought it looked kinda lost. I think I need to add a rock or something so it looks like it's part of the main group.

There is something unusual in this photo, I'm sure LF will find it.




tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

I'm sure LF will find it.

Hm &#8211; first guess would be red, aka dying, brush algae on the rock in the left front.

Next guess, and more remote, one of the stems from the Stellata is actually a Willow branch

But I stick with the first guess

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Believe it or not your second guess is much closer.
I put a skewer bbq stick in there to help the stella grow straight up. It keep growing into the rotala and another piece into the diandra.

My Scapes

I think the Wisteria might have told the Stellata that you are into the flat design and all the Stellata tries to do is to please you so you don&#8217;t have to pack out that whip .

Do you think cutting it shorter would help? I don&#8217;t know, just guessing.
Does it get light from straight above or slightly from the front?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF

Do you think cutting it shorter would help? I don&#8217;t know, just guessing.
Well, I'm going to cut off the tops once the new growth get's bigger. It's one big stalk so I don't want to cut back yet. From what I understand the bottoms sometimes don't grow or take a few long time to regrow.

It does get light from pretty much straight above.

My Scapes

This is more a photography question. These two pics are pretty much the same except the top one was taken with a white balance setting of Tungsten and the lower pic is with a auto white balance. Your suppose to match the white balance setting to your light source to get the most accurate pic. With photography you could try to match the real conditions or use a setting which looks best. Let's face it many of the high scapes you see I'm sure do just that, including Amano. Which of these pics do you prefer.



tetratech attached this image:


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including Amano

Oh, of course. He's a photographer just as much as an aquascaper... I noticed a lot of little tricks and even photoshopping in the photos of his tanks - its all about making them look good, afterall

Personally the bottom one looks much better. Much warmer, brings out the reds nicely and leaves the black background black, rather than rendering it with a blueish hue. And notice how the tungsten setting renders the reds greyish or white, washing them out completely. Blegh!

Tungsten doesn't looks good in tank shots, mainly because we don't used tungsten lights over them, we use fluorescent i find that either a fluorescent setting or even regular daylight (probably what your camera chose) look the best. The tungsten WB makes it look like you're using an actinic light over the tank.

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 05-Jan-2006 10:41

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Back in the saddle!

Yeah,

Without a doubt I like the bottom one better as well.

It shows the color differences so much better.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes, I agree with both of you. The bottom actually is more realistic. I think in the real world the tank looks alittle lighter.

My Scapes

Hey, something where I have some expertice, photography

I agree the bottom picture is better and I think I can explain why it is better. Im going to assume that your lighting is about daylight (65-6700k). Tungesten is significanly lower, is very orange in general. Your brain tends to do its own white balancing so you dont notice it. Tungsten is orange, the more steril looking florescents in offices are genreally green. The camera is doing what nowhereman said because the tungsten assumes the lighting is X ammount to orange and it ajusts all the colors accoringly. Thus you loose the nice red on the tips of those plants and the gravel, which I think is black in sunlight looks blue in the top picture.

In general when you are wondering about the color balance of a photo and have several to compare, the one that has the best color contrast, it kind of 'pops' more is the correct one. The wisteria for example has much better detail overall in the correct photo. If you had a photo with a color balance set for 1000k you would loose detail again as everything became too orange.

I dont know how much of what I am seeing is easily observed because it took me a few months of doing my own color photo printing to really start to see this stuff.

Hope it was reasonably clear,

Chaos

Actually, just to mention it, the bottom photo is probably a little to orange. The gravel isnt black in that photo either. So the perfect photo may be a little inbetween but much closer to the bottom one.

Last edited by chaosmaximus at 05-Jan-2006 12:21

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

ChaosMaximus,

Thanks, yes that did make alot of sense.
Your definitely in the right place. Your photographic knowledge with planted tank interest are definitiely a tough combination to beat in terms of challenge and beauty.



My Scapes

The camera is doing what nowhereman said because the tungsten assumes the lighting is X ammount to orange and it ajusts all the colors accoringly

Right. Take a shot of a person under incandescent lighting and their face is orange, with tungsten film () or a digital setting it's much cooler.


Of course, if people shot RAW you could do whatever you want with it no matter the camera setting.

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Back in the saddle!

nowhereman

Is RAW an acronym of some kind? or do you mean somthing else? just wondering

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

I think you've used the Blyxa perfectly, it looks it's best against rock where they show each other off. Also you've planted it in an ideal triangular configuration (been studying your Amano principles ? )

But I do think it still looks a bit bare there though. I'd like some bunches of a small Anubias there, at the bottom of the rocks just behind/alongside the Blyxa. The braod leaves of the Anubias, with the thin Blyxa and the rocks would all set one qnother off really really well. It'll also give a more "aged" appearance.

I know you tried Anubias before and didn't like it. But the variety you had was a bit too big and not enough of it. I'm thinking a few thick bunches of small Nana or Petite. Grouping or tying a few rhizomes together gives that nice bushy look.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks for the comments bensaf. I agree it looks alittle empty in the mid are where the Blyxa is especially with the fullness of the wisteria. Not sure about the Anubias because I don't have anyting to anchor to over their. Are you saying to just anchor them to each other.

Another option might be to ad more rocks and try some riccia to add green to that area.

My new challenge now is BBA. It is starting to overwhelm the rocks and wood, I also noticed some of it on the Blyxa.
What's interesting is that it seems to be growing more where there is water movement from the spraybar which is positioned on the left wall of the tank pointed at a 45 degree angle. You could see the Blyxa swaying from it. It pretty much hits that mean rock and driftwood. I also noticed it accumulating on my intake right where the co2 is going in. Many aquarist on APC complained about the same thing. I have not touched my co2 and I know it's in the 30s unles my kh and ph tests are wrong. I've begun to overdose excel.

My Scapes

You don't need to anchor them to anything as such. Tie or rubber band small rocks or stones to them,to weigh the plant down and plop them in. You can hide these stones easy enough or push the stone down into the substrate just make sure the rhizome is not covered. You can pile up Anubias pretty easy.

Current doesn't seem to make a difference to BBA. It will always settle on hard scape/equipment first. Equipment should be cleaned/bleached regularly. It can be hard to keep of hard objects even with good Co2. But it's always worthwhile to check Co2, test for KH and pH. It's easy to get got out. KH can shift from rocks etc. Needle valves can move and reduce the bubble count without you noticing etc.There's a few ways it can move, you need to keep an eye on it or you may find you're running lower Co2 levels then you thought. Always a good idea to check KH and pH regularly to make sure your where you want to be.

The Excel's a good idea, harrying and hassling BBA helps.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hi Guys,
I did some initial research on the UV vs Fe effects.
This is a series from "The Krib" about it:
[link=http://www.cam.org/~tomlins/comments.html#m15]http://www.cam.org/~tomlins/comments.html#m15" style="COLOR: #FF00FF[/link]

There are others too, but the chemistry gets kinda deep.
The short is that it looks like there are no worries.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

tetratech,

You say that you overdose Excel, why? Have you tried the regular dosage for at least one week first? It worked very well on my tank. Back to your question picture - maybe it was an illusion on my end, but I thought I see some red algae on the rock to the left. Once it turns red it is dying and all you have to do is to keep up the regular dosage for a little longer.

About the Anubias: Bensaf is right ( what else is new? ), they don't need to be tied to something. Actually, all of mine were shipped to me with small regular roots already expaning from the rhizome (sp?). I buried all of mine in the substrate making sure the rhizome is above the ground. These roots become rather big after a short while and the plant will be savely anchored.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
As far as the excel treatment. I haven't really dosed the regular amount. I assume you mean the 5ml for every 50g.
How many doses did you do to see any change? I dosed 35ml yesterday and was going to do this for a week every other day. No, that wasn't bba turning red, just some red color on the petrified wood. By the way when the bba turns red and dies do you jus leave it in the tank or do you remove it some how.

In terms of anubias, I didn't know you buried those in the substrate. I guess if the rhizome is hidden from view it would look alright. Thanks for the info.

My Scapes

tetratech,

I guess I didn&#8217;t dose the normal dosage either, but I had a different regiment.

I started off with the first dosage (means there is no Excel prior in the tank) at the suggested amount, being 5ml for every 10G (suggested after 40+ % of water change), in my case I added 50ml, for you it would be the 35ml that you added.

Then I subsequently dosed every day 20ml, so maybe 15ml for your tank size, for one week. Changes occurred around day 4.

I think dosing every other day may not be as effective, on one day you attack the algae and the next day you give it a break &#8211; supposedly Excel stays active for only 24h (no evidence to back this up though).

About the Anubias: I will take a picture on the weekend and show you how it looks in my 29G where the roots are clearly visible from the front of the tank. I kind of like the look of the roots as it reminds me of a Mangrove tree.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Anubias roots, when planted under the gravel, will grow thick, white and quite long, not unlike large crypt or sword roots. When we normally see them, the roots are green and on the thin side; not so when buried. During my replant I noticed one set of A. barteri roots that were roughly a foot long. Just be extremely careful when burying the roots as to not bury the rhizome (said often enough, I'm sure, but nevertheless...) It will rot and the plant will die at the slightest bit of being underground, and with the other ground cover you have you probably won't even know it.

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Back in the saddle!

LF,
Thanks. Did the bba in your tank every come back and when it turned red did you end up cleaning it off hardscape and cutting leaves or did it pretty much just distegrate into the water column?

Thanks LF and Nowher for the anubias info.

My Scapes

tetratech,

Before I treated the tank for the first time I had serious black rims on the Anubias and various other plants and hardscape. Never came back, except some small bushles (I actually assume of a different algae type) on my rock. This one has been eliminated during the last (second) sweep with Excel. I never physically removed any remains. As far as I can tell it turned red, then gray, and then disintigrated.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

O.K. Thanks LF.

I guess my fear with over dosing the excel too much is the E. Stella which looks like it has "I'm melting" written all over it and the tolerance of the Yamato Shrimp which now total 5 in my tank.




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Here's a pick of some of the bba on the recently named "Krusty Peak"

A greenish-grey in color. It actually doesn't look bad, if it could be contained, but it's definitely spreading too much.

tetratech attached this image:


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Are the shrimp eating it at all? Is there anything that finds it tasty? Would otos be of any service? I have many questions, no answers. I don't remember if you tried otos in that tank at all. Mine do ok but I'm still scraping all kinds of algae off the glass. My vacation and the direct sunlight coming in for an hour a day led to all kinds of algae growing everywhere that it wasn't growing before. No GW water though knock on wood.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

I have a 9 otos in the tank and at times I have seen them clean a path of bba on the dw, but I they can't keep up with it. I also do think the bba is their preferable type of algae and there is some spot algae (normal) on the glass for them. I have 5 shrimp and I can't say I've seen them bother with the BBA. They stay on that piece of dw all day and nibble on that attached piece of java moss.

My Scapes

Ottos usually won't touch BBA. They prefer diatoms and the soft stuff. But then again a lot of fish will peck at any algae if it's young and fresh.

I agree that algae on rocks and wood look better with a coating of algae. As long as it's the right type, one of the more "attractive" algaes. The soft green ones are ok. Unfortunately ones like BBA and staghorn are just plain ugly.

Was the Excel already added when you took that pic ? I usually find that grey bba is very unhealthy bba on it's way out.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Was the Excel already added when you took that pic ? I usually find that grey bba is very unhealthy bba on it's way out.
No, the bba I have has been grey from the getgo. Definitely accmulating more in the path of the spray bar. As I mentioned other apc members have experienced same.

Co2 I know is high ph 6.2 to 6.4 and kh 3. I could start guessing buy I'm I think I'm done playing perfect scientist. Other than some nice healthy spot algae there is no other algae in the tank, leaves are very clean, full.

Bensaf, I would love to send you some of my stargrass, it is growing madly. (Starting to sound like LF). I'm glad I regrouped my rotala and stargrass from little pieces, much more satisfying than buying more. Especially the stargrass I had replanted 1 to 2 inch pieces, by tomorrow morning it will be the tallest plant in my tank.

Last edited by tetratech at 06-Jan-2006 20:49

My Scapes

Starting to sound like LF

And what would be wrong with that

Slight shift of topic,

As promised, here are 2 pictures of an Anubias Nana planted in the gravel.

Full Shot:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Close-Up of the roots. You can see the rhizome is way above the substrate (middle of picture):

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks for the pics and info on the Anubias. I think they definitely have their place. One reason I guess I'm not a big fan is something I was thinking about and something Bensaf said in the other thread "they are plastic plants that grow". That said, I guess they do offer good contrast with "real" looking plants

My Scapes

Post Spawn

Well I don't think any fry survived in the tank unless they are hiding in the elaborate network of wisteria. with the 5 pencils and 9 cardinals I don't think they had much of a chance. The few I put in the 5g did not survive and never really got any bigger, so I think it was a nutrient issue without BBS or other adequate food. It was kinda a hapazard setup next time I might go all out trying to rear them. Here's a post spawn pick of the ram still showing exceptional color. This pic is taking with auto white balance and is natural. Whoever said bolivians don't have color they should tell it to this girl. The color and spawning hopefully is a testament to good quality water.

tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 07-Jan-2006 10:14[/font]

My Scapes

Your Rams are just absolutely gorgeous! IT makes me even more excited and anxious to get my tank up and running so that I can get my Rams!!! I hope mine are even close to as pretty as yours are! I hope you have better luck next time with the spawning. Like I said before I would love to work out a deal with you on a pair of them. I am sure I can speak for everyone when we say we are rooting for you and your Rams! Keep up that great tank!


Christina

dvmchrissy,
Thanks for the ram and tank commments.

As I predicted the Stargrass now is competing with the Rotala as being the tallest plant in the tank. You might notice from this pic I had to cut back the diandra for a couple of reasons. One it was growing into the stellata wideleaf and also at closer examination some of the stem bottoms were getting black. It's amazing how healthy a stem plant could look and then two-thirds down the stem the has a completely dead spot - solid black. That show's I guess that the roots on those plants are there for anchoring only and most nutrient is thru the leaves. The diandra remembers me of a cross between cabomba an rotala r. The leaves just fall into alot of pieces like cabomba. When I saw the black stems it reminded me of when I first started and didn't know anything, but this plant got black stems with alot of space between them and I think enough light 2.7wpg cf. I get the feeling this plant needs really heavy light. Maybe I should give some to LF.

Anyway here's a pic showing the stargrass and cut back diandra.



tetratech attached this image:


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Here's the pic:



tetratech attached this image:


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She is absoulutely gorgeous!

If the rams are at all like the kribs, the female will be that colourful each time they come into breeding mode. Mine is all by herself in a tank with barbs and otos, a SAE and 1 lonely danio and she colours up more intensely about every three weeks. Then she chases the barbs around and gets testy with the other fish. She hasn't hurt them, but she lets them know when to stay away.

When I'm ready for a bolivian ram I will be trying for a female. The male kribs aren't much to look at and I'm thinking it may be the same with rams.

Last edited by luvmykrib at 07-Jan-2006 15:01

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

luvmykrib &#8211; Male Rams are at least as gorgeous as their female counterparts .

tetratech &#8211; I know you don&#8217;t mind a little criticism, right? In my opinion there is one thing missing from your tank: flow. It appears to me as if your tank has 3 (or even 4) distinct sections, left wisteria, right wisteria, mound group, and maybe the blyxa group. If that is intentional then you achieved your goal there. I personally like it better when groups flow into each other and it seems like you are working towards that with the Diandra flowing into the Wisteria on the right. Just my thoughts.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF, I always want your comments, thoughts, etc.
Acutally if you look at page 32 in one of my full tank shots after I added the Blyxa to the middle, I commented:

I'm not sure I love it, I need to fine-tune and blend it more with the surrounding flora.
So right now I'm getting a feel for the growth, The stargrass also needs to be moved in to get more cascading action going, but that plant I'm afraid to touch.

This is a pic when I compared now and when I had some of the wisteria still in the middle area in front of the rock. It obviously blends both sides together. Another thing also is the wistera on the right toward the middle is almost to the front of the glass (remember it crawls) and needs to be cut back to lessen it's impact. It should really support the center and not take over, but you know that wisteria.



tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 08-Jan-2006 06:35[/font]

My Scapes

Makes perfect sense

You are right, the Wisteria in the middle made it blend together.

Do you like this one?

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Actually I did think about doing just what you illustrated, but I felt that wisteria was too powerful with it's bigger different leaves and would overwhelm the setup. If it was a similiar ground cover it would work well, so I'll be shifting, blending, trimming etc. You might also have noticed that I have some dwarf hairgrass growing in 2 different locations, although I kinda like the constrast with the black eco I want to see if it comes in better the second time around.

My Scapes

Some random pics of the tank. First full tank after water change. Move some of the wisteria on the left to overlap some of the blyxa. I also moved one blyxa in the right group further right to blend. I might decide to cover some of those rocks in front of the blyxa with riccia to bring more green into the area.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Here's pic 98.7 too big as usual.



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Some rotala.



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Estellata



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Estellata, hoping this starts to color up.



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Blyxa. You know it's false pearling, when your dying bba pearls as well.



tetratech attached this image:


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Twin peak. The middle dw is the only place so far that javamoss as taken to.



tetratech attached this image:


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tetratech,

I think I am falling in love with the Blyxa. If it doesn't get too tall then it would be much prettier than Dwarf Sags or Chain Swords. I will watch yours grow and spread and then maybe adopt this plant in my tank as well, if you don't mind.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Full room shot from my kitchen sink. LF, I must have missed something, who is Dan?

tetratech attached this image:


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Close up of my favorite occupant.



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This is a fun shot. Looks more like outspace than a fishtank in my kitchen. See the shooting stars.




tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

I love the Ram shot, great picture that shows its beautiful color

The only Dan I know is a member of this site, why? Did I mention a Dan somewhere here? Dan at FP has his own log with 4 65G tanks on a rack.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The Blyxa is a very nice plant. Seems like it works best when used at the base of structure, similar to tenellus... the question is how big it grows etc. Another planted tank fad... UVs, glass diffusers, Blyxa... what next?

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Back in the saddle!

Ingo,

The Bylxa won't get very tall. It'll get wider by producing side shoots. It's a very easy plant to control unlike the chain sword which can get out of hand.

Blyxa Aubertii is another one that would work well in your tank. Unlike the Japonica it's more of a true rossette type plant. Get's a lot taller and very wide.Similar texture and shape leaves to the Japonica, but a lot longer and softer.In your light it would turn red on the top portion quite easily so may give a splash of color while still retaining that grassy look.

I find it grows a lot faster then the Japonica.

Tetra,
If I may be a little critical.....

I do like your tank a lot. It's well laid out and the plants look full of health. But it also leaves me a little cold. It seems a tad sterile. There's no small details. I don't feel any mystery and because of that I don't feel any desire to investigate and look further. It's like "wow what a pretty tank"....and they I move on.

The Blyxa I think accentuates this problem. A pretty plant well laid out, put in the right place and then...nothing. There's a few rocks there but they're just sitting there doing nothing, they don't distract but they don't add anything either.

This may partly be due to my own bias. You know while we both appreciate any well done tank we also have quite different personal tastes. I certainly go for a more crowded look.

The most important and painstaking parts of my own tanks are the minor details, the ones that unfortunately don't come across in photographs. The greatest personal satisfaction is when I see somebody looking at my tanks and they crouch down, try to look thru the sides or they are almost breaking their necks trying to get a closer look at some detail because they think there might be something else there, even if most of the time there isn't.

Generally the placement of stem plants comes rather easy to me , more thought goes into the choice of species. But I have spent hours trying to get small details of where wood, rock and plants meet, so as the whole becomes greater then the sum of the parts.

All the good tanks have this I think. There's always sections of the tanks you can't see, at least not at first. There may not actually be anything there but you want to look to find out for yourself.

The thing with your tank, at least at the moment, it may change as plants fill out, is that I can already see everything.

Slight edit. You posted a new photo while I was typing this. The full tank shot showing part of the room. I have to say that it looks more impressive in that shot. Still think some detail around the Blyxa would be a big bonus.

Last edited by bensaf at 08-Jan-2006 21:06

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,
I could definitely appreciate your comments. I think I'm always torn between keeping my tank simple (less species) and letting this simple but dramatic layout show off a large school of fish (which I don't have yet) or adding more flora and giving it more complexitity. As you of course know some of the most striking tanks are one's that have only a few species of plants, not to say that certain elements aren't located strategically to add interest.

At this point I would like to see how things grow in a bit. Although I'm very happy with the Blyxa it has reduced the flow (as LF pointed out) and I need to make the necessary adjustments for it to work completely.

Any comments are always appreciated.



My Scapes

Well maybe I should clarify a little. Certainly I wouldn't suggest you go mad and add a lot more species. Something I've certainly been guilty of in the past is too many species with none making a impact. I'm trying to control that urge these days.

Certainly I think you've handled the stem plants very well and certainly wouldn't add more species. Let what's there fill out. You may even decide to drop one of the species later and it would still be impressive.

I''m thinking more of the smaller details. The mid/foreground areas. Accents for rocks etc. You really wouldn't need too many more species 2 or 3 would do it.

Certainly I wouldn't suggest you go down the road that my collectoritis forced me. These days I'm removing more species then I'm adding.

I think one phrase you made probably highlights the differnce in our attitudes. You want a tank with a striking background for a school of colorful fish. I lean the other way. Cardinals, Neons et al, while beautiful fish don't do it for me. They just seem to sit there. I prefer the fish to be more interactive with the environment. Gouramies gracefull winding thru plants, Bettas prowling through a mass of Anubias leaves, Pencil fish pecking and poking thru everything, and Ottos being Ottos. I got into the habit of building 'scapes to encourage that kind of behaviour. This works against me sometimes. Things I should keep simpler I end up overdoing.

You can see this trait even now. Remember when I re-did the tank? While the overall layout is the same it was much simpler and cleaner at the start, you can see in the last pics everything has got denser, more complex and darker (even though I now have more light over the tank). Guess I just can't help myself.



Last edited by bensaf at 09-Jan-2006 00:41

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I think one phrase you made probably highlights the differnce in our attitudes. You want a tank with a striking background for a school of colorful fish. I lean the other way. Cardinals, Neons et al, while beautiful fish don't do it for me. They just seem to sit there. I prefer the fish to be more interactive with the environment.
That's a very good distinction. I'm always hesitant to add more fish because I feel it would eventually clutter the big school I plan on having one day. Although in a tank of my size I do want and have some fish that use the layout like pencils, rams, otos. I also currently have 5 yamato shrimp. As I said I need more tanks, I'm always torn between a tank with maybe two or three plant species and a large school or one with more variety buy not Dutch like. I really need 3 medium size tanks, this way you'll always have one show tank and the others you could play with.



My Scapes

I've definitely observed my otos munching on the bba. I don't have alot of algae on the menu, so maybe they are desperate. I've also caught the yamato shrimp pictured here making a snack of it.




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That is a beautiful shot tetratech

I guess all you need is about 100 more shrimp (). At my LFS they go for $5 each.

Ingo

I really like this picture

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks for the pic comments LF.


I guess all you need is about 100 more shrimp
Yeah exactly, that' what Amano always says, so simple, $500 later. I don't think the 5 I have will put a dent in it. BTW I got all my yamato shrimp at aquarium adventure. They were $3.99 each minus 25% for being a AA member which was free since I signed up when the store opened. Wow $5 is high, I thought $3.99 was high, I wonder what Bensaf pays. The cherry shrimps were $5.99 but were not in stock.



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get other shrimp apart from yamato's. there are other algae eating shrimp that will eat a different variaty of algae than yamatos and also reproduce in fw.

Just avoid az gardens for shrimp.

Last edited by Megil Tel'Zeke at 09-Jan-2006 13:36

Just avoid az gardens for shrimp.

Any experience you'd like to share?

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Back in the saddle!

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/71/sort/2/cat/4/page/1

I believe everything is covered there. The shrimp shipped were miniscule , and as stated hot very good survival rate.

Last edited by Megil Tel'Zeke at 09-Jan-2006 13:47

Megil,
Sorry to hear that. What kind of shrimp did you order and how many? Did any survive to reproduce?

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Hey, i was wondering what kind of a camera you are taking the photos with. Because you were asking about photo exposres before I thought I might add a little more info. I believe that your camera is automatically over exposing your photos. [I see the etherial quality of many of your plants as evidence of this, though perhapse you like to use this as an awe inspiring effect? ] It depends on the kind of camera but you may be able to ajust its settings. What it does whne you take pictures, all of which seem to be without a flash which is great imo, is that it tries to make the net exposure for the immage what is called middle grey, as far as light inensity goes. The camera does not understand that your background is supposed to be black or that snow for example is supposed to be white. Because of this it over exposes the aquarium pictures with large ammounts of black in them. The 'false pearling' picture has good detail overall, because of the normal balance of light and dark. THe one below it shows heavenly wisteria. Anyway depending on the camera you might be able to force better exposures, but it depends.

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,
Thanks for any advice, I am certainly not that photo savvy.
My camera is a Canon S2 IS, not an SLR, but from what I understand a pretty good camera, some shots I believe are limited because of the iso setting only going up to 400 and insufficient light. Most of the shots you see in my thread are taking with the manual seeings using shutterspeed as a priority.

The settings are using 1/10 - 1/20, f 2.7 to 4.5, with 2/3 underexposure. I do have a black background and black substrate so I do like the way it makes the plants pop out.

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Gee,

am I glad that I am reading this thread.

I was going to order my shrimp from there, I guess I will have to find another source then.

Thanks Megil also from me, I am sure you saved me quite some money (and hair).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
If I spend $70 for shrimp shipping my tank really would be over my head like in my avatar.

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Here's another shrimp shot. It's interesting to watch them. When a fish swims close the shrimp put up their arms in an effort to defend themselves.



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I was going to order my shrimp from there, I guess I will have to find another source then.

Hehe, I was thinking the same thing. Maybe shrimp are just poor shippers? Never had them shipped before, but it seems the death rate shouldn't be as high as megil says it was. Will have to do some more searching for online retailers, I think I saw some place online called Frank's something-or-other, little pricy though... and there's always aquabid.


Chaos,

All true enough, but taking a pic of a tank with a black background/ substrate and high lighting is like taking a pic of a guy in a big black coat out in a snow covered field on a bright sunny day - if you expose to capture either extreme perfectly, the other is going to look crummy. if you want straight from the camera .jpegs, in the case of planted tanks I think it's best to underexpose only slightly - the point is not to see the background at its best, but to capture the detail in the plants. For straight out of the camrea .jpegs I think the exposure is pretty good. Ideally I think one would underexpose a little - no more than a full stop - and then play with shadows/ highlights in Photoshop... or if shooting .raw files it would be that much more effective.

Sorry, that was off topic. I'll control the photo-nerdness from now on

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Back in the saddle!

[link=http://www.franksaquarium.com/freshwatershrimpfarm.htm]http://www.franksaquarium.com/freshwatershrimpfarm.htm" style="COLOR: #001700[/link]

Heard good things about him. probably worth a shot. When ig et around to restocking the 20G again i'm ordering from him what i can't find locally. (going to try getting some from deb first)

but to answer the earlier question none lived long enough to reproduce. shrimp aren't that delicate of shippers AZ gardens just has shotty quality. well I do have some rudolphs still, they are about all i ahve left from the purchase.

Day 1 - The excitment

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Day 12 - Innocent growth

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Day 38 - I had at all (in my naive mind anyway)



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Day 65 - Innocence Lost



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Day 77 - The comeback

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Hmm... an obvious lack of GW pictures here, tetra... youre not telling the whole story here!

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Back in the saddle!

Day 97 - Happy New Year!

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3 Days ago - Nowher, not now, I'm on a roll!



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Today - reworked blended foreground to appease my critics



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Are we done yet

Nice collection and naming of each set

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yeah I think I got it all out, actually I think I skipped a few pics. Nowher, GW never visible from front, sometimes bad photo skills come in handy.

If you look at the foreground I spread the blyxa further and scattered some wisteria into the middle to help blend. I guess I'll let it grow in and see how it looks. The poor Blyxa has been uprooted and moved like 4 times already.

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tetratech,

Things are looking really nice. I can't wait until I can do some more work on my tank!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks Wingdsc.


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The poor Blyxa has been uprooted and moved like 4 times already.

Well don't move it again

It's a relatively delicate plant, it does not take kindly to being moved. It takes quite a while for it to root and establish, every time you move it , it has to start over.

I'd go as far as to say the secret to growing it well is stick it in and never move it.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Nowher, GW never visible from front, sometimes bad photo skills come in handy.

Not bad photo skills, I just dont think you had GW nearly as bad as mine, probably why it took your UV less time to make things sparkling clear for you. Anyway, I like the new look of the tank, even though Hendrix Rock is no more.

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Back in the saddle!

It certainly does flow better, although I still find the left side Wisteria group to be isolated.

Also, from the pciture, one cannot easily see the driftwood stick on the left. I am sure that when looking at the tank directly it creates a flow towards that left side.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Speaking of wisteria groups, holy cow! Look at the right side of that first pic - empty!

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Back in the saddle!

Speaking of wisteria groups, holy cow! Look at the right side of that first pic - empty!

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Edit error on previous post. Anyway your referring to the day on pic right Nowher, yeah, the wisteria was left over clippings from my old 46 gallon and there wasn't much of it when I first started.



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It's just wild to look back on it and see it so lacking in wisteria because wisteria has become such a ounced and dare I say, defining element in your tank.

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Back in the saddle!

Oh it's got depth baby!

For those of you who mentioned my tank lacks depth (you know who you are) I wanted to show this side shot. The grouping of blyxa is on three different levels with rocks pushing up the substrate aroundthe big rock. You could also see the big rocks are staggered as well at different depths. It's hard to see this from the front.





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tetratech,

Yeah, I see the depth, from the side of the tank

I never doubted it is there, but sometimes it is hard to see it from the front of the tank (aka standard photo position). I am sure that it will look deeper once the area in front of the main group has filled in some more.

Ingo

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Thanks Lf,

Question? I'm on day 5 of the excel treatment I've been doing about 20ml everyday, I haven't seen the bba turn red, but looks like it has stopped spreading. I think you said your's turned red around day 4.

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Yup tetratech,

That is what it did for me, and proportionally on a smaller dosage than yours.

Maybe it doesn't work equally on all tanks or on your particular type of algae.

I would say keep it up for at least 3 more days.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Actually I missed a dose while I was out of town.

See my other thread http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/General%20Freshwater/67955.html?200601111643

Last edited by tetratech at 11-Jan-2006 16:58

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I have seen the other thread,

But I didn't dare to comment in it as one never knows if an entry was your last, once you are on a roll .

Maybe the skipping set it back, let's hope that this is the issue then dosing longer should fix that.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

It's just wild to look back on it and see it so lacking in wisteria because wisteria has become such a ounced and dare I say, defining element in your tank.
Yes, you may say that. It just comes in so nice and it's low maintenance.




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For those of you who mentioned my tank lacks depth (you know who you are)

*whistles nonchalantly*

Pity most people look at the front of a tank and not at the sides

To be fair though, pictures never do a tank justice. They always look better in person, can't beat the 3 dimensional view. Photo's do tend to flatten the look of a tank, moreso when you use any kind of zoom.

Maybe we were a little harsh.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Maybe we were a little harsh.
I can take it, keep the honesty coming.

Anyway here's a pic of the E.Stellata Wideleaf. I'm starting to enjoy the constrasting leaves. It hasn't colored up so I'm thinking of upping my FE dosing or maybe my light isn't intense enough to get the color.

Current dosing schedule:

n03 - .5 tsp
po4 - .05 tsp
Flourish - 10 ml
Flourish trace - 5 ml
Flourish excel - 20 ml (currently treating bba)
co2 - slow moving stream of bubbles

Although plants look really healthly I don't get much pearling. Although I don't necessarily associate pearling with plant health I do like to witness pearling at times, so I've changed my co2 diffusion from canister intake to a limewood airstone under my spraybar (too cheap to buy a glass diffusor.) I do see all the tiny bubbles bing wooshed to the plants. I want to see if it increases pearling




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Last edited by tetratech at 12-Jan-2006 09:57[/font]

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I have a glass difuser setup for a few days so far and I have already noticed some pearling..Not on any of my wisteria tho.

The Excel will definately reduce pearling. So you may not see much until you're finished with that treatment.

Depends on the plants too. Heavy oxygen producers pearl heavier, faster. Riccia is the classic example, Java Fern while slow growing makes a lot of oxygen and will pearl at the drop of a hat. Wisteria seems to be somewhere in the middle.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

bensaf,

Why does the excel cut back on pearling?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Don't know. But it's certainly widely reported and it's something I've experienced myself in the past.

Maybe it somehow slows down the plants oxygen output or reduces the amount of oxygen in the water.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Pic update. I believe it's Day 110 (give or take)

The tank has definitely entered a new phase of lushness with the revival of all my stem plants, plus the additional ones. Here's a shot looking through the left size.




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Oops alittle too big,



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Shot of the main group showing contrasting colors and shapes


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Full room shot,



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tetra,

Tank certainly does look great, but looking at how well the stem plants are growing, I can't help but feel that you can take it to the next level by doing something with the right side of the tank, building up more height with stem plants etc. The hardscape is there, it just needs to be filled in.

the wisteria carpet can remain, of course...

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Back in the saddle!

You know what,

For the first time this tank looks to me like a 20G Long. It seems tiny, what happened?

Don&#8217;t misunderstand me, it is very very beautiful and the shot you took makes it look like a piece of art, but the fact that this is a big tank is not coming across.

Maybe it is because of all the small leaved plants, I don&#8217;t know.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Tank certainly does look great, but looking at how well the stem plants are growing, I can't help but feel that you can take it to the next level by doing something with the right side of the tank, building up more height with stem plants etc. The hardscape is there, it just needs to be filled in.
I could appreciate your comments, but I probably will not do that. I feel keeping the stem plants bunched in a tight group off center gives me my stems, but also allows me to have the drama of open water which will eventually be populated by a big school of something. Again I need more tanks.

For the first time this tank looks to me like a 20G Long
You caught me, I knew I couldn't fool the LF eye for long. It is a 20g, I just couldn't admit it with your big tank.

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No, it&#8217;s not a 20G

I know that the plants cannot be that small when proportioned down to the size of a 20G, except if you would have miniature versions of each in which case I would love to have some of them.

I guess once a load of schooling fish are swimming in the tank and they become visible in the picture then it will be much easier to judge the tank when comparing the size of the fish to the rest of the tank. Yeah, I guess that&#8217;s it, thinking about it more made me realize that even some of Amano&#8217;s tanks would appear small if there wouldn&#8217;t be the 100 Cardinals swimming around.

Ingo

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That's a very good point about Amano's tanks. Sometimes the only way to get a feel for the size is by seeing a large school of fish. Speaking of Amano did you see this additional link I put in that shows more pics of his big tank in his home. It also is part of a gallery of pics from ADG and Oliver knott that will make you sick.

http://www.pbase.com/plantella/niigata2005amanoshome

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For the first time this tank looks to me like a 20G Long
"Cheeky young pup" Stick this in your 20g.





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I thought this pic was a good fusion of fish, plants and art.



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Cheeky young pup

You are flattering me, not with the cheeky part, but with the young pup one .

Looking very nice, the Star Grass is really coming in strong. Also, the front of the hill (do we have a name for it yet? ) is coming together. Did you trim the Diandra?

Is the right side the area that the Rams call their home? Or are they perusing the whole tank?

What&#8217;s the latest on fish? What are your current thoughts on the large school. Wanna have about 20 Espei?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The front of the hill (do we have a name for it yet? )
Not as of yet, I'm open to suggestions.

Did you trim the Diandra?
Yes, I think I mentioned it in an earlier post (I know it's hard to catch them all) that I was amazed at how well the diandra grew and then when I looked closer to see a black section 3/4 down the stem. I guess it shows that the plants get most of what they need thru the water column. So I cut back. It's kinda struggling, I don't know if it's one of these plants that doesn't do well with the excel overdose treatment.

Is the right side the area that the Rams call their home?
How did you know. They do peruse the whole tank, but are on the right side 99% of the time.

Still haven't decided on the large school yet, your espei's do look nice. Here's an updated pic from tonite. The stargrass is almost to the top as well as the rotala. I'm not looking forward to the trimming. I'm torn between replanting all stem tops as opposed to cutting and letting the lower part regrow.



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I also decided to change my method of co2 diffusion. There was nothing wrong with the canister injected method, plant health was really good, but I wasn't getting any pearling. As Bensaf pointed out it could be a possibly of the excel treatment that you pointed out as well, but I wanted to try something else. So I setup a limewood airstone right below my spraybar. Here's a pic as the microbubbles go up and then across the tank. (I'll probably eventually get the glass diffusor for aestetics and for effectiveness,although this limewood airstone gives off really nice small bubbles.



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tetratech,

I just set up my 2nd DIY Co2 with a limewood block. I really like the small bubbles it makes too. Right now I have the ladder going on one side of the tank with the block under my filter. I havent noticed tons of change but its only been going for a day. My Bacopa did crack the surface today but I have added some other stuff in the mix too.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I hear ya Wingdsc. Something about those little bubbles.
Make sure you test your co2 levels with both of those going.

BTW - I was in my lfs the other day. I picked up some otos for my 12g as well as 2 kuli loaches to help move around the sand and on my way out I noticed they were selling riccia.

So I took some as well. Fiqured it would be fun to play around with it. I thought it was interesting the way it was priced $1.99 per ounce.




Last edited by tetratech at 15-Jan-2006 18:48

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Nice find on the riccia!..I'd like to see how it turns out in your tank setup

I thought it was interesting the way it was priced $1.99 per ounce.

So how much surface area is an ounce?

As far as my Co2 levels go....
I might have to actualy go buy some test kits but right now as long as my fish aren't freaking out then things are good. I was actualy thinking of hooking up a 3rd bottle just to see what happens.

Edit:
Maybe that will have to be a new thread.....

Last edited by Wingsdlc at 15-Jan-2006 21:47

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Fiqured it would be fun to play around with it.

It is fun to play with. But once you've got it, you pretty much have it for life. It's remarkably easy to grow and grows fast. You only need one little tiny scrap to survive and you have a whole new batch.

I got rid of mine a while back to make room for other plants. Thought I got rid of it all but it keeps cming back. Even in the small non Co2 tank it keeps popping up.

Not a big problem it's easy to remove. It pops up tangled in moss , ferns Anubias. I just leave it be til there's a big ball of the stuff, then I pull it out. But a tiny piece will remain snagged somewhere a few mionths later you have a big ball again.

I think it will work well in your tank. Just hold it down on a stone with a hair net or mix some in with the moss.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

tetratech,

Yeah, I think Riccia is a very nice plant, look at all the Amano tanks that have full ground covers with it.

But I also believe they are a pain in the neck to keep trimmed. You will have to cut them short frequently to avoid the bottoms from dying off and the rest floating to the surface (or being swirled around the tank and settling all over the place).

And unfortunately I currently know one other person who has problems with not maintaining his ground cover right .

Ingo

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You will have to cut them short frequently to avoid the bottoms from dying off and the rest floating to the surface (or being swirled around the tank and settling all over the place).
Yes I have heard that. I plan on just using it on a few rocks, etc., but I know the little pieces are going to be a pain.

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I really like the look of the E.Stellata Wide Leaf. It reminds me of exploding fireworks (especially if it starts to color up more), unfortunately it has a very week stem structure as you could see it's being straighted with a bbq stick.



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Eusteralis Stellata, var. barbequii



It is very pretty though

Ingo

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Eusteralis Stellata, var. barbequii

You know I read this and for a second I was going to look up that name. Not enough coffee yet:%)

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I'm sorry to intrude in such impolite manner, but according to what I see in the pictures, especially the last one, you have Limnophila aromatica there, and not Eusteralis stellata. I say this because of the shape of the leaves and also because of the slight colour that can be seen on the underside of the leaves.

According to my experience with L. aromatica, your problem is lack of nutrients rather than lack of light. Try to add a little more fertiliser before you mess with your lights and see what happens. If that is the problem you'll see that it colours up very quickly (2 - 3 days), and it will also become more robust so that the skewer will not be necessary anymore.

Last edited by Untitled No. 4 at 16-Jan-2006 13:29

Son's of a $%#&amp;. I know the aromatica is many times sold as E. Stellata. This pic below from the Krib is saying it's E. Stellata and this is exactly what my plant looked like when I purchased it. The new growth looks much different from the original growth tha melted away.



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And where have you been all that time Untitled No. 4? I missed you.

Ingo

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I've heard of the water sprite for wistera trick, but this is ridiculous.

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That picture from the Krib shows a really poor E. stellata, if you ask me. It can, and it often does, look much better. But there's nothing wrong with L. aromatica, it's actually quite a nice plant. Add some more Flourish/TMG/whatever it is you're using and see how nicely it grows as it developes deep purple shade on the leaves, first on the underside and then on the top as well. It's also a little less moody than the E. stellata, but it shows right away when it doesn't get enough nutrients.

As for where I have been, I was here lurking most of the time. I was also busy at work (not all of us have the time to surf forums from work...) and then busy with setting up a new tank a few weeks ago. And anyway, I don't think I've had much to add to all that was going on here, but it is nice to see both of your progress.

Untitled, yep I think your right I pretty much confirmed that it's the aromatica, but each one looks very similiar here's two better pics from the Plantfinder at APC. The first one is aromatica and the next is e. stellata. These pics are taken from the same tank with the same conditions.

First the aromatica:

null

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and the E. Stellata



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The E.Stellata is smoother and does grow bigger as well.

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They usually sell Aromaitica and Stellata side by side here in the same tanks. When I see them together they look almost identical yet there's always a difference I can't quite put my finger on. Seen seperately I can never tell the damn difference.

The narrow leaf Stellata is very easy to spot, but that's one finnicky plant.

I prefer the Aromatica anyway, it's easier to grow. like the light purple undersides, real nice shade. I think it's a bit more subtle too, the Stellata is a bit "show offy" for my taste.

If it is Aromatica I agee with untitled the color will come from nutrients rather then light. Think about it, the main color is on the underside of the leaf, light is not going to play much of a role there.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

If it is Aromatica I agee with untitled the color will come from nutrients rather then light. Think about it, the main color is on the underside of the leaf, light is not going to play much of a role there.
That's really an excellent point. I'm going to try and up my Flourish dosing. I'm not using a dedicated FE supplement, the diandra is not coloring up as well. Guess they aren't getting much FE from the roots thru the eco. I was hoping with the eco and the flourish they would be fulfilled in the FE department.

Last edited by tetratech at 17-Jan-2006 06:23

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My stargrass has reached the top of my tank, from maybe a 1 inch clipping in about 30 days time. So that's about 3/4 inch per day based on my tank being 22inches tall.



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And what are you going to do with it now, tetratech?

I am very keen on finding out how the next trimming will go.

I will keep my fingers crossed,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And what are you going to do with it now, tetratech?

You must be reading my mind. After I put up this post I was going to edit and say "what do I do know?"

It looks really good right now, but I know it's just a moment in time. I know last time it stalled after cutting it back, but I wasn't running the same levels of no3 at the time. I did prune some stems and they did grow right back. Maybe I should run a poll?

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Well,

How does the bottom part of it look like?

My tall ones usually have very thin bottoms, with loads of water roots (that sometimes find their way back into the substrate), and no leaves at least in the center parts of a group.

I guess not trimming it is no option anyway, so the poll should be like:

a) just trim off the tops
b) replant the tops and dispose the bottoms
c) other options (please explain)



Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I guess another possibility is to trim out some of the middle stems to allow more light to enter the middle. Not sure how that would look.

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I like the idea of replanting the tops for this one. With a tall stem plant theres always the risk of making it look stringy. If they're tall they should be bushy, IME

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Back in the saddle!

Wow..Nice growth!

Here's an updated pic of the foreground area of my tank.
I covered two rocks with riccia and placed them jutting out from some of the other rocks that are now almost forming a border with the wisteria in a more classic open foreground look. (Need some bigger rocks to complete).

I also decided that the controverial E.Stellata is better suited as a midground/background plant because of it's one thick stalk, so I'm going to attempt to move that forward a bit.



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