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That's a pretty bad survival rate for cardinals, but I bet your lfs doesn't quarantine them for a week when they get them in. Mine generally all survive, but like I said my lfs quarantines them(and the neons).

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

The 10 cardinals made it thru the first 24 hours, but today when I checked my tank one had died, and another has lost it's color on the back half of it's body and is not swimming with the school, so that's probably going to be two down. I'm shooting for a 70% survvival rate. Here's a pic:



tetratech attached this image:


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Well not sure. I've purchased cardinals from probably 5 different stores in the past year and they are very tough to acclimate. Some of my lfs have stopped selling them completely. Other's have told me they simply lose to many. Once you get them past the first few weeks their actually pretty solid. I have otos and rummynoses in my tank as well and I never have a problem with them as long as the tank is cycled. Some LFS have told me the supplier keeps them in RO water, which is another problem, because once they hit regular water they are dealing with things they were never exposed to.

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tetratech,

Do you notice a small white pimple like growth on your cardinal’s mouth?

I had that on my Neons and all, except 2, are dead by now. I first suspected NTD as well, but Heidi (Houston) asked her fish store guy and he mentioned to her about a strange, still unnamed, disease that cannot be cured and sooner or later (depending on the individual) kills the fish. He said that would be explicit to Neons, if I remember right, but I guess cardinals are so closely related that they could get it too. The white blister did not always stay on their mouths, sometimes it disappeared and the fish died later anyways. I treated with Melafix and Primafix to no avail.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Check out my other thread on the cardinals. I think I figured out what is causing the demise of this group.

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Tetra%20Talk/66224.html?200511140924

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Eep...

I remember having a cardinal school go down like that- same strange discoloration starting at the base of the tail and creeping it's way up to the head, resulting in death.

However, I think my problem was infected tubefix worms. I fed them all tubefix worms one day, and then next they're ALL dropping like flies. This was after they had survived 3 days in the thank, so I would hope it was not an acclimation issue.

Well I couldn't let day 50 go by without some picks. Here's some of the occupants fighting it out for an algae wafer.



tetratech attached this image:


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Here's a shot from the right front side.



tetratech attached this image:


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Front Shot



tetratech attached this image:


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Are those the pencil fish in that first shot? They're very nice And I love that ram! Any more cardinal deaths to report (I hope not)?

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Back in the saddle!

Yes, those are pencils I have 5 right now and they seem to be really hardy. Very active, but not really schoolers they move around thru the plants and chase each other around. They even chase the bigger black neons.

I lost a total fo 5 cardinals thru the first 4 days. I seemed to have stablized at the remaining 5. I was really hoping for 70% survival.

Here'a a pic of one of the pencils.





tetratech attached this image:


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Well,

I mentioned already how beautiful your tank, plants, and fish are, so I am not going to do it again .

But for the first time I seem to understand why you recommend to everyone that they should have some driftwood branches sticking out of their thickets (as I see them for the first time in your tank now).

And, for some reason I didn’t see that earlier either, the closeup of the Pencil also shows the “main” rock of your group in detail. Well, that is not a rock – is that some form of concrete with gravel mixed in? I though all your rocks are fossilized wood?

Sorry about all these Cardinal losses, I know I am not going to get some anytime soon. What are your plans there? Will you still try to increase the size of that group?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Driftwood,
Actually as you experienced it's tough to find good pieces I have three pieces left center and right and the only one really good is the one on the left. I need to take a pic with more light on top cause it's hard to see the DW with the black background.

Rock
The rock was sold as petrified wood from a very specialized aquatics store on Long Island. I believe it is petrified wood and the pieces of stone in it is just part of it's natural formation. I actually like it because of it. If it's not petrified wood, I'm going to be really pissed. If you look at my full tank shot you could see from a distance it looks like petrified wood.

Cardinals,
If the group of 5 hold on I will increase the school. These 5 look really good as of now, but with these fish you never know. BTW - Took you advice and added two more rummys. The acclimated same time as the cardinals and they are fine, so now I have 4. I'll probably add a few more. I might move the black neons into my 12 gallon with the 8 gold tetras. The black neons, pencils and belive it or not the otos all of the same basic colors.

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Well all 9 cardinals so far are looking good, the 4 new ones I bought look fine thus far. For me, it's cards or bust. Nothing else looks as good in my tank. I think I'm going to move the 4 black neons into my 12 they should be o.k with 8 gold tetras. That will pretty much max that tank.

So my current stock is:

9 Cardinals (plan to increase to 35 to 40)
7 Otos (plan to increase to 10)
5 Beckford pencilfish
4 Black Neons (plan to move to 12 Gallon)
4 Rummynoses (Increase to 7)
3 Corys
2 Bolivian Rams

34 Total Fish (Plan to increase to 67-70 fish)

I still plan to add a few other interesting fish that I might find. The cardinals and rummys are great schoolers and occupy lower 1/3 of tank. The Pencils and black neons occupy top 1/3. Bolivian rams stay on the bottom.




Last edited by tetratech at 16-Nov-2005 11:08

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tetratech,

But if you remove the Neons, then the 5 Pencils are the only fish that occupy the top 2/3rd of the tank. That’s a little empty.

You know, Gouramies will sound very interesting to you in no time .

Also, how about a nice school a Hatchet fish for the top?

Ingo

EDIT: so you plan on 1 fish per gallon, does that mean I should plan on 125 fish?

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 16-Nov-2005 11:39

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Actually I forgot about my guppies. I have 4 of them in the tank and have no where to put them. They actually stay on top as well. I was thinking of a few hatchets, but my glass cover doesn't completely cover the tank. I left the plastic shield of the back. I find it to be a pain and I'm afraid some of the hatchets might jump out.

Here's a pic of the cardinals. If you look closely you could see my new ram and some other fish as well. The pic is kinda blue looking I was experimenting with the settings.

I'm going to keep looking for one of those sparkling gouramis they are just like the croaking ones, but have nice color.

BTW - I think your probably way over with all your fry on the 1"/gallon.








tetratech attached this image:


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Nice fish tetra

How are the rams getting along? Any signs of aggression? I'm curious how your will work with a few of them, since they're unsexed and whatnot.

Cardinals look great too.

As for the lighting, looks like you used either custom WB or tungsten... or maybe a flash/ flourescent preset. Am I right?

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Back in the saddle!

Rams
So far a little agression from the original one, which by the way is alot bigger than the new one. I think I have two males, based on fin and color, but I'm not 100% sure.
I guess if I get one more and it's a female it wouldn't be good.

Cardinals,
I'm holding my breath. I 5 from the original group seem fine after the purge of 5 in 4 days and the new 4 I added all seem good. Problem with cardinals is that I got into this too relax, not worry.

Lighting,
Excellent catch. It's tungsten. I think the best way to get good pics is to hang extra light on top of your tank before you shoot.

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You need more corys, tetra!
At least 3 more, but I would probably add a bunch more (you have the space) because I love 'em.

Sparkling gouramis would probably be too shy in that tank with the boisterous pencilfishes and the Rams. I have 3 in my dwarf tank and even with other dwarf, peaceful fishes they tend to hide a lot in the broad-leaved plants.

-P

upikabu
How colorful are the sparkling gourmais? They had a pic of them in TFH Magazine and they looked really nice. Supposely they are very hardy as well.

Your probably right about the corys, My big problem with this tank are bottom feeders. Everything seems to uproot the hairgrass runners, even the cory's alittle.

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Here's a pic of my old ram and my new ram (mini me) I think they are both males. See them swim amongst the "weeds"



tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 16-Nov-2005 20:02[/font]

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My sparkling gouramis are quite colorful, similar to the pics you saw in TFH. But since they are very small, you'd have to look closely to see the sparkles. From a distance they look quite plain, unlike some bright colored fishes like cardinals, Endlers, etc. Here is a pretty bad pic of one (with Endlers) that I took a while ago. They are pretty hardy fish IME, just make sure you get a group of at least 3. I made the mistake of getting only two initially and one (the one pictured above) bullied the other literally to death. I added 2 more and now they get along fine.

Ah, I didn't think about the hairgrass. Do hairgrass root well eventually? I have E. tennellus in one of my tank with a bunch of corys and their roots do anchor well so the corys can't uproot them easily when they're searching for food.

Love the pic of the Rams - looks like Dad & son. Who knows though, the small one could turn out to be a female.

-P

The hairgrass does root pretty good, but the runners are so close to the surface that any little movement from the corys or something else will uproot them. I honestly think hairgras is more trouble than it's worth. I also think you need a powerhead directly at them so everything doesn't get stuck in it.

I might add a third ram, but I'm afraid I might get a female and the two males will fight (assuming I have two males)

BTW - I really like that gourami, I haven't seen any yet in New York.

Last edited by tetratech at 16-Nov-2005 20:29

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Jsut thought I would pop my head in and say Hi. Also, I wanted to tell you how great the tank is looking. I love the rams. They are SO cute. I think I woudl probably stick with jsut 2 for a while then mayb eadd another one after you get soem other things in the tank, jsut to see how they react to everything else. By that time you will probably be able to tell what kind of personality they have, that might make it easier to decide whether or not a 3rd one would get picked on or vice versa. I have been looking for pencil fish because now I want some after looking at the pictures of yours!
Great Tank! Please post some more pics soon. Maybe another full view of the tank please?


Christina

tetratech,

I like the Ram couple. I am wondering if 2 would swim side by side when both are male, even when they are of clearly different ages. Or was that the only time you saw them together in harmony?

And what is tungsten? A light type?

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 17-Nov-2005 08:49

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

The new one does follow behind my original one at times, but when he gets too close the bigger one pushes him away. Reading up alittle on the fins male/female I do think I have 2 males. I'm ont interested in breeding them so I might add a third if I could get another male.

Yes, Tungsten is a light type. Did you see upikabu pic of his sparkling gourami

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/sparkling_gourami.jpg

Nice fish!

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Christina,

Here's a full tank shot as requested. I changed something in my tank. Could anybody tell what?



tetratech attached this image:


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Anubias barteri, middle next to the rock!!!


EDIT: tungsten lighting is the basic type of lighting you see in normal light bulbs. take a picture of a lamp in your house with your camera WB on the daylight setting - the picture will have a yellow, warm tint to it. now change the WB to the tungsten setting (the indicator for this usually looks like a little upside-down light bulb) and you'll notice the pic looks more natural, much "cooler". this is good for taking pictures of people/ things indoors without flash. IMO I find I take my best pictures of the tank on the regular daylight setting, under-exposed by a stop or so.

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 17-Nov-2005 10:05

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Back in the saddle!

No, Anubias Nana

Just to say something different

Ingo

EDIT: Actually, Nana is Anubias Barteri var. Nana

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 17-Nov-2005 10:02

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Very good

If that's nana, it's the biggest-leaved nana I've ever seen...

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Back in the saddle!

But it is tiny in the picture

We need more than one opinion anyways so that a winner can be declared.

My Nanas and Barteries have rather similar leaf sizes (will check tonight to verify this statement), but the Nanas are shorter stems.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I'm staying out of this one, I really don't know my Anubias. Do you guys think it looks good there. Not sure if I'm going to keep it in there. Would it look better with a few more scattered around.

Last edited by tetratech at 17-Nov-2005 10:16

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tetratech,

Actually, when I look at the Amano books I see that he rather often prefers to group them rather than scattering them around.

I like the grouping, although mine are scattered, at the moment.

And I like that you got one as it breaks up the leaf type (small fizzle stuff ).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Anubias is a funyn thing, I think it depends more on conditions. I have anubias barteri with short stems and large leaves, and also with long stems and smaller leaves. The leaves on my anubias b. nana are small, but that's because I left them floating on the surface to grow out, so the high light made them come in smaller. So the question is, is this a mature v. nana grown in lower light, or is this a small, immature barteri? Only time will tell. As for placement, I think it kinda looks awkward where it is - doesn't seem to fit in with the other plants being that high up. Maybe move it to one of the red circled areas below? IMHO, of course...



NowherMan6 attached this image:

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Back in the saddle!

LF, Are the anubias easy to break at the rhizome into two plants.

I think my Anubias is this:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plantfinder/details.php?id=24&category=lighting&spec=Low

Nowher, we posted at the same time. Yeah that was my other idea lower and multiple places. I guess I'll have to experiment. My LFS also had a Anubias barteri 'coffeefolia' It was quite large and sold for $15.

Last edited by tetratech at 17-Nov-2005 10:36

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ANUBIAS BARTERI VAR. NANA



Tetratech,

I would say that NowherMan6 and I have a tie, as either or could be right. Both are very similar and equally pretty, it is just a question of size. What makes you think you got that one? Did you order it there?

About the rhizome, I never separated my Anubias, but there are 2 basic procedures I have heard of:

1) use a really sharp tool (razor) to cleanly cut the rhizome in half.
2) Wait until the Anubis develops a side-shoot (for a lack of better words), and cut that one off. One of mine has that stage, new leaves are growing on both sections. One section is about 90 degrees sideways to the other.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

No I bought it at a good LFS, but it wasn't labeled specfically. Just looking at pics on that PlantFinder link mine looks like the ANUBIAS BARTERI VAR. NANA.

BTW - The 5 original cardinals are all doing well and I didn't lose any of the 4 new ones. So I might go back this weekend and pick up some more, assuming the 9 hold solid.

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Why did you decide on cardinals instead of neons?

Have you thought abotu getting neons instead of more cardinals?

After all the bad stories I have heard about the cardinals lately. I have decided to stay away from them for atleast a while.

Good Luck with the ones you have though.


Christina

If you could get a close up shot of the leaves of the anubias we can tell for sure. Nana leaves will be mreo heart shaped, as in the pic from that link. I haven't given up on barteri yet!!

Also, good to ehar about the cardinals. They do look pretty good in that tank.

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Back in the saddle!

I've always preferred the look of cardinals over neons, richer color, more elongated shape as well, but also the neons are e to NTD, neon tetra disease. Although the cardinals are tough to break in, once they are situated they actually do quite well. But to keep these fish you must be willing to put up with some losses initially and keep your water very clean.



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If you could get a close up shot of the leaves of the anubias we can tell for sure. Nana leaves will be mreo heart shaped, as in the pic from that link. I haven't given up on barteri yet!!



tetratech attached this image:


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I think he's right...



The replay shows that the evidence in inconclusive. Therefore, the ruling on the field that it is anubias barteri v. nana stands! First down!


p.s. damn that's a fat oto!

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Back in the saddle!

Whatever you guys say.
I guess my 7 otos in my 72 are kept rather busy. I should probably add a few more.

What do you think of
Anubias barteri 'coffeefolia' It looked pretty large, but I guess it depends how big your tank is. To Little_Fish it must look small.

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I agree,

This Oto is very well fed. Mine are not skinny, but not like this. I guess he eats a whole algae wafer in one sitting .

And to the First Down:

It is not that important

Ingo

Edit: Here I am not that sure, but I think Anubias barteri 'coffeefolia' is a form of Anubias barteri var nana.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 17-Nov-2005 14:00

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I had a lovely coffefolia anubias once. I think it's my favorite type. The leaves come in with a reddish hue and eventually turn dark green with deep grooves in them. It also grows much lower and is shorter than barteri. Big leaves, low growing plant. Mine melted when I transferred it into my shellie tank a few months ago Wish I had another one...

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Back in the saddle!

It looks like Nana to me. Barteri's are serioulsy big. There's a sure way to tell. If the length of the petiole is greater then the lenght of the leaf it's Barteri, if it's shorter it's Nana. Could be the other way around ?!

It's placed in about the worst possible location. Looks like an afterthought that's just plonked in there.

Get the Coffeefolia. Not just the most beautiful Anubias species IMO , but one the most beautiful aquatic plants you can own. It brings instant class to a tank. A must have.

Move the existing Anubias to one of the areas highlighted in red, another in the opposite side. Coffeefolia somewhere between the 2 , hunt down the some Anubias Nana Petite for to fuill out the reamaining areas around the rocks under wood etc. You'll be quite amazed at what does to the tank. It's a very attractive tank but it's "flat". There's a foreground and a background but there's nothing in between. The Anubias at the base of rocks and wood will fill that void and really add depth, use the bow front to maximum effect. They are practically zero maintenance, put them in a and let them do their thing. They bring an istant natural and matured look to a tank , but need to be tightly grouped to get this effect.

Definitely try to get some Sparkling Gouramies (or any gourami for that matter). You won't see so much of them. Not so much because they are shy or timid, it's more that hunting around plant thickets are their "thing". I like that. It's more of a thrill to see a beautiful fish pop out once and a while rather then just parade in the middle of the tank all the time. Their behaviour brings a grace and sense of natural tranquility to a planted tank no other species can . It helps transform a tank from a "flower display" to a "slice of Nature"

If you can't find Sparklers, a great, easy and cheap alternative ? Female Bettas. Same size, shape and behaviour. Pick the color you like. I’ve got a few they work very well. Great for hunting down small snails and pests like hydra.

Pic of my coffeefolia included.




Last edited by bensaf at 17-Nov-2005 21:53

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

HE's BAAACK!!! Good to "see" you again, bensaf! We've missed you.

-P

Forgot the pic.

bensaf attached this image:

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,
That must have been some vacation. We'll as usual you are very perceptive. I basciall threw the anubias there because there was a place to squeeze it in between a "rock and hard place" Then I took a pic just to get opinion. I already split the thing in two and placed it lower on both sides. To be honest I'm not sure it goes with the flow of my tank, but we'll see. I now have the wisteria growing across the entire mid-grown of the tank in an arc, with the hairgrass coming in to the front. The anubias breaks the flow, but maybe it needs to be broken to show depth.

I was actually thinking about adding a few batches of Blyxa around the rocks, but the anubias became available to me from the other tank that I changed.

Anyway welcome back. I gotta get some sleep.

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We'll as usual you are very perceptive.

Careful, that's verging on over-glorification.

I haven't been on vaction. For various reasons just wanted to take a break. Still do. My postings will probably be very few and far between, but just thought I'd let you know I'm still alive and kicking.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

If you have a moment please read page 18 of Little_Fish's thread

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/64425_18.html

About half way down there's a funny exchange where you a mentioned.

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Wow,

I didn’t read Bensaf’s last entry in your thread before I welcomed him back in my log.

Now that is sad news, I for sure will miss (as I have been in the last few weeks) the old Irish guy’s input. Don’t know what to say.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I am thinking about putting pencilfish in my 55 gallon I am going to set up. What kind of pencilfish do you have? I looked at the profiles on here and there were a few different kinds.


Christina

P.S. Thanks for the full view tank shot. Tank looks great!

I have Beckford Pencilfish. They seem very hardy and are interesting to watch. Not really schoolers they like to work thru the plants and pick at little pieces of algae, etc.



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Made a little enhancement to m layout. Not exactly the driftwood I wanted, but fiqured it would be fun to play with it alittle. Let me know what you think.





tetratech attached this image:


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I like the added driftwood a lot, tetra Youve done a nice job with those branchy pieces.

What'd you do with the anubias?

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Back in the saddle!

Hey Nowher,

I took a shot at splitting the anubias. So there's two pieces on either side of the main rock. If you look closely you'll see a few leafs.



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tetratech,

This is coming together nicely.

I have a hard time comparing your driftwood now to how it was before as it was not all that visible . Nevertheless, I like how the long branch on the right side reaches “out”.

This might be only me, but I think that your process of reaching out from your main group will continue as I see that you are getting bored with the single highlight of your tank. I think that the branch is just the first sign of it.

The one thing in your tank that I am not too keen about is the symmetry of your main group. It looks like a head with shoulders, and thinking about it, the branches are the arms. All 3 “bushes” have the same diameter, it appears and the left is the same height than the right. I would say some asymmetric trimming is coming up.

Hope this helps (did you see my 125, 20, and 29 entries from yesterday?),

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Thanks for your comments. I guess if you look at any scape you could see things. Someone else I forget who it was thought they saw the rock as jimmy hendrix and the rotala as his hair.:%)

The plants do need to be trimmed to relate to the hardscape arrangement. The driftwood extending to the right I think looks really good overhanging the wistera.
Ideally I wanted thinner DW all the way arround, but couldn't find any. I might try cutting some with my sawsall.

Here's a pic of new branch of wisteria. What I find really interesting is who big schools of fish change their swim patterns based on the layout. My cards are going under and over the new branch.



tetratech attached this image:


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tetratech,

Yeah, new things or re-arrangements have interesting effects on fish, from changed swimming behaviors to new territories being staked out.

I don’t think the branch is too thick and agree that it looks very nice, but how about some moss on it ?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks. I have to tell you, there is nothing like cardinals. They are really swimming the tank in tight formation. So far all 9 look good 5 from original batch and all 4 from the second batch. I guess I'll use the LFS from the second batch to increase the school. One group of fish is going to go into my 12g, not sure if it's the 4 black neons or the 4 rummynoses.

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They are really swimming the tank in tight formation

Hm, have you seen pictures of my Espei? Talking about tight formation there. Ha, my guys can do that too .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I did once have harquelins they are amazing schoolers.

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Someone else I forget who it was thought they saw the rock as jimmy hendrix and the rotala as his hair

::meekly raises hand::

Ahem, that was me....



Aaaaaaaanyway, I'm wondering if the cardinals schooling so well right now is a temporary thing. My harleys school like mad when they're introduced to a new environment, but after a while they settle down and just kind hang out and spar over territory. I hope for your sake this doesnt happen, but I have observed it...

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Back in the saddle!

"Someone else I forget who it was thought they saw the rock as jimmy hendrix and the rotala as his hair"
Don't worry, whatever your mind sees I certainly cant control, but when you use hardscape you could really picture anything.

That's true about the schooling when they first stake out hte tank. I'm hoping the other fish like the rams and pencils will keep them together. Also a big factor is the plantings. If you don't have tight groupings the fish will eventually go through the stems, etc, but if it's dense they really don't. When I setup my tank, I really did take into consideration that a large school of tetras schooling was going to be the main livestock focus.

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This schooling reminds me of an intersting picture I saw in one of the Amano books:

A tank with 180 Gallons (680 liters), if I am not mistaken, and a whopping 500 Cardinals. Now that was a school. He has a picture of the same tank 6 months later as well, to show the plant growth progress, but it seems there are a few Crdinals less now. I wonder why?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Amano I believe even mentions in one of his books all the fish he lost when he first got into planted aquaria. Really a trial and error thing like most of us.

Since I haven't stated it in a while, my current dosing schedule:

Sun, Tues, Thurs
1/4 tsp no3
1/16 tsp po4

Sun only
5 ml Flourish Potassium

Mon Wed, Fri
5 ml Flourish

Levels
co2 - definitely in the 30's.
96 watts 11 hours 1.3 wpg
192 watts 6 hours 2.7 wpg

I haven't measured po4,no3 in about a month.
My kits ran out and I haven't replaced.
I'm currently running a microbubble airstone into my intake and I've vertically arranged my spraybar to whirl it around the tank after it gets chopped up through my eheim cansister.




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[quoteI haven't measured po4,no3 in about a month

Bensaf would be so proud of you

Hey, why are you adding air to the water? Have there been any signs of distress in your fish?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I'm currently running a microbubble airstone

Sorry, I should have been clearer, I'm actually using the airstone as my diffusor which is being sucked up by my intake and going into my Eheim. I've been using my hagen ladder diffusor up to this point. I actually put the spray bar on to get current over the hairgrass so I decided to spread the co2 via the same.

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So tetratech,

Let me see if I get this straight:

You have your CO2 hooked to an airstone that sits under the filter intake, the filter sucks in the bubbles and shoots them out via the spraybar, right?

If that is what you do then I have to say that I was considering something similar at the time when my Reactor was sitting next to the filter intake. My concerns here were that the CO2 will benefit bacteria in my filter and as such less would be available for the tank itself. Not to mention that I don’t know if it would benefit bad bacteria or algae in the filter as well.

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 22-Nov-2005 09:36

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo. the CO2 would only benefit Autotrophic bacteria. the
bacteria in the filter that break down nitrogenous compounds
and the like are all heterotrophic obtaining their energy from
breaking down the compounds. CO2 would be of no benefit to
them as it is not useful in respiration. so CO2 going into
the filter would be used only by a ver small percentage of
autotrophic bacteria and algae that may line your filter,
though if it is a sealed canister very little light would be
enterting th e filter so photosynthesis would be at a stall
and most of the autotrophic(photosynthetic) organisms would
die.

Last edited by Megil Tel'Zeke at 22-Nov-2005 09:46

Thanks Megil,

So maybe I should strive to having my Reactor output as close to the filter intake as possible.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That was some explanation Megil. I'm very impressed or it sounds very impressive.

To be honest I hooked up the spray vertical at an angle to the front of my aquarium so I have a flow whipping around the front where my hairgrass is. I'm definitely getting some BBA in there from the stagnet water (I'll wait again for LF to stop laughing)...... I'm still waiting..... O.K. anyway after I hooked up the spray bar I decided I wanted the co2 to whip around the tank as well, that was really my inspiration for changing. Up into this point I was using my cheapo Hagen ladder, the only component from my original hagen nutrafin co2 kit I was still using. Now the eheim becomes my reactor. LF, either way the co2 was going through the filter, The only reason I'm even using the airstone is because with a large bubble size some people have experienced impeller problems, noise, etc.

My Scapes

Surprise, surprise. This guy appeared for the first time since I bought him about 3 weeks ago. I thought he was dead. I think he came out when I rescaped alittle. I purchased two yamato shrimps and hadn't seen any of them until now. He even survived a coppersafe treatment.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Nice Shrimp

I am sure that the wipping around the front of the tank works very well for you as you have a curved front panel. That should create some nice flow.

I haven't yet finalized my spraybar arrangement. Initially (and up to almost 2 weeks ago) it was vertically along the back, but that created a strong current on the back wall and all plants were blown to the right. Now I have it horizontally on top blowing from left to right. I will see how I will arrange it next .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks, I was just really surprised to see it. And I don't remember it being so big when I first got it. I'm thinking I should move my intake to the right side since the spraybar is attached to the left side wall. This way any debris will be caught on the other end and won't work it's way back into my main grouping. What do you think LF?

My Scapes

Hm,

I think that the position and arrangement of intake and output are different not only for each tank but also for each scape per tank.

Generally, I would think that you should have them together on the left so that the back of your tank does not become stale. I wish there would be some colored water that one could add to the tank that shows you the current flow, then - within minutes - the color should disappear. I try to derive mine based on food flow.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Perhaps your right about the flow. Speaking of stale I need to get used to virtually no aggitation on the surface. Now that the spray bar is completely submerged the only distrubence is from some pearling and some co2 not getting into the intake, but it's extremely minimal. I'm awaiting my oil slick.

BTW - You very quietly became a FISH MASTER. A belated congrats /:'

My Scapes

It's confirmed their in love, or it's big brother love. My rams have not left each other's side for the last few days. They've been spotted togeher all over the tank:



tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 22-Nov-2005 16:44[/font]

My Scapes

If my experience is anything to go by, I think your Rams are going to get busy with it in the very near future. Have fun!

-P

They do look really nice swimming together like that. Me and Mini-me. I really am liking the look of them though. When my betta goes I may need one for my 10g if possible. I now have two favorite cichlids, kribs and rams. Are they really easy like kribs, or harder to keep?

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

If my experience is anything to go by, I think your Rams are going to get busy with it in the very near future
Oh great, another tank. On second thought a perfect excuse to get another tank. My wife's a softy for babies.

Luvmykribs,
They are hardy fish, but different water conditions than kribs.



My Scapes

or it's big brother love. My rams have not left each other's side for the last few days

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

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Back in the saddle!

tetratech,

Thanks for the “upgrade” congratulations.

Now we are waiting for the pink spot on the female’s belly. Any signs there yet?

Yeah, when the surface agitation is removed a film forms easily on the water. I am not sure if I should be worried about it or not, so far it doesn’t seem to harm the fishies in any way. Also, I moved the spraybar to horizontal again a few weeks back and now no film occurs anymore.

Ingo

NowherMan -

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I took my ph reading last nite and it was around 6.0 - 6.2, it was a shade of yellow, which on my test kit is 6.0. I guess I'm getting better co2 diffusion now with the airstone than I did with the hagen ladder. I had to adjust the needle valve (always a scary thing to do) for the first time that I could remember. With a kh of 3 the 6.0 ph would give me a co2 ppm in the 40's. I was currently running at around 36 ppm. Still high, but I see no problem with any fish, including my oh so sensitive cardinals. All 9 look tight.

EDIT: Actually with a kh of 3 and ph of 6 I would have 90ppm. I don't see how that is possible looking at the fish.

Last edited by tetratech at 23-Nov-2005 11:14

My Scapes

No sign of pink belly yet. I don't any fry will survive in the tank, especially with the pencilfish, they are quick and cunning and go after everything.

BTW - I saw both of my yamato shrimps alive and well. I think the new flow in the tank probably brought them out.

My Scapes

I would assume that the Rams will turn into fierce fighters once they have babies (except if they come from a strain of tank raised Rams that supposedly lose their parenting skills). Maybe it would be a good idea to get a QT set up . You know, just the usual 55G spare tank that otherwise would look so empty .

Ingo

You didn’t happen to take your water sample from within the spraybar stream? There, the CO2 concentration might be higher.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 23-Nov-2005 12:41

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I remember in one of these logs, someone mentioned anubias needs a host. What sort of host is suitable? I have no room for more driftwood in either tank. Would rocks be an ok host? Right now I have the anubias and the lace java fern just stuck into the gravel in both tanks. I'm sorry if this question is in the wrong thread but it might take me forever to find it. Thanks in advance.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

luvmykrib,

You can attach anubias & java fern to rocks. Just tie with a rubber band until the root attaches itself to the rock.

-P

Looky what I found at my LFS today. Just in time for the holidays.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Another pic, beauty amongst the weeds.




tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Is that the pencilfish that you were looking at before, tetra? (I don't feel like digging through the pages to find it ) What was it labelled at? It looks like a variation of nannostomus marginatus (dwarf pencilfish), but with more red in the body and tail.

Oh hang on, I think I found it: nannostomus marginatus mortenthaleri]http://www.aquabase.org/picture.php3?action=view&id=685[/link]. More info [link=here]http://www.pecescriollos.de/go/nannostomus-mortenthaleri[/link] and [link=here. LF should be able to translate the last one.

Anyways, very pretty fish! Never seen them around here. How many did you get?

-P

Yep that's the one upikabu. I ended up buying three of them. This is the first time I saw them in any LFS. This fish is so bright, that it really does give the cardinal a run for it's money. The LFS had just gotten them on Monday, so I'm hoping they do already. I hate buying fish tha have just been acclimated at the LFS and then having to acclimate again. Thanks for the additional info, where's LF when you really need him. ]:|

My Scapes

Just 3? I would've gotten at least 6 they're so colourful! I'm having trouble finding more n. marginatus for my dwarf tank (only have 3, b/c that's all that was available).

But I take your point about waiting until they're more acclimatised in the LFS - I do exactly the same thing.

-P

Sorry, was out drinking .

I know, I am no use - never here when really needed - If all the advice asked of me is to TRANSLATE ]:|



The home of this form is Peru. Here, the upper parts of flowing waters are their living area. The species was initially classified as a sub-species of Nannostomus marginatus but became its own species in 2003.

This fish is cared for in either a species tank or with similar small decorative fish. They appreciate a dark substrate and, besides dense vegetation, open space for swimming as well as clear slightly acidic water created by peat moss.

The omnivore eats all kinds of food as long as it fits in their mouths. Fine live food should be offered to get them into breeding conditions.

For breeding, a small darkened tank is sufficient. The water in that tank should be very soft and acidic (< 6° dGH, pH-Wert < 6,2, Temperature > 25 °C). The constant egg layers, which can be bred every few days, lay 30 to 40 eggs per session. Hatching happens about 30 hours later, the fry is free swimming after 3 to 4 days. First foods should be infusorians (Ingo Edit: the usual small fry food, don’t know how that is spelled) or tiny critters (again, the very small live food, like green water etc.).

Distinctive is the extreme territorial behavior of this species' male fish. (Ingo Edit – Oh Oh)

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 24-Nov-2005 03:36

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF how many drinks did ou have or are you translating from that German website that Upikabu linked to me?

You sound like a pencil fish encylopedia. You already have them breeding, I still have them floating in the the LFS bag.



upikabu
They one had a few more and two of them had alot of torn fins, and as you knon they were just in the store since Monday. I also have 5 beckford pencils in the tank, so I'm assuming they'll interact with those.


Last edited by tetratech at 24-Nov-2005 06:35

My Scapes

tetratech,

You know, drinking was from 3PM to 7PM

I got up for you this morning (at 4:30) and translated the German article, that was my entry above. Guess that’s why it sounds like an encyclopedia.

I sure hope you read the last line of that entry as it might explain the torn fins.

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 24-Nov-2005 06:39

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Distinctive is the extreme territorial behavior of this species' male fish

Oh great first the rams now this. I should have just used my tank as a backup to your espei. When I first saw them at the LFS I honestly thought they were dyed fish.

So if my red corals breed with my other pencils will I get pink coral.





My Scapes

They one had a few more and two of them had alot of torn fins, and as you knon they were just in the store since Monday.

Man, you both sound drunk and isn't Thanksgiving Day only *today*?

Thanks for the fascinating translation, LF. That's interesting about the male's aggression in this species because the regular n. marginatus I have are very peaceful fish and never bother each other or other fish. Sometimes they even get chased around by the botia sidthimunki. Perhaps their personality is more like the Beckford's, which would fit right in your tank, tetra!

-P

Does sound like a drunk statement.

So far they are very peaceful, but probably too soon to tell. What surprised me is the Black Neons. They seem to be very aggressive toward the red pencils. I was going to move them anyway so I guess this clinches it.



My Scapes

LF,
Well if I would have know my co2 diffusion methods would have made such a stir, I probably would not have posted the change, but this is a log. LF I feel bad now, I was just trying to get a point across that different things work for different people and it's tough to draw absolute conclusions sometimes. For example, I have seen at least 10 different methods of co2 diffusion that aquarists who have incredible tanks use, so again, few things are black & white. You didn't need to delete your log entries, but since you did I'm going to delete mine as well.
Let's keep having fun.

TT


My Scapes

OK

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey Man,

Where is your weekly update?

No falling asleep on the job permitted .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well, I think my rotala had run it's course after topping it 5 or 6 times, it simply wasn't growing anymore, so I decided to savage any good stems and completely uproot it. I think Bensaf, had said you could go along time without uprooting, well after 2 months the plant had it. Unfortunately, I had just topped some of them about a week ago, so I didn' have that many stems with tops, so I had to replant stems that I had topped a week ago and now I threw out the bottoms, so basically I'm replanting the middle. By the time I got done it was lights out, so I'll try to post a pic tomorrow or Tuesday.

My Scapes

tetratech,

Well, at least in one point I seem to have been right about rampant growth and high maintenance :

Rotala – …, but here is my observation. Constant trimming will make the stems look ragged and at some point the stems will have to be taken out and replaced with new cuttings.

This was on [link=Page 9]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/64496_9.html" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link], in case someone cares.

I think that your middle sections will provide a good base for new growth. I remember to have cut stems at least 3 times and planted them all back in the tank when I was increasing the size of the initial group in my 29G.

But I wonder if you would like to keep on doing this in the long run, replanting every 2 months.

How are the lower sections of your Star Grass looking? Mine in the 20G basically have no leaves on the lower parts of the skinny stems.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

"Rotala – …, but here is my observation. Constant trimming will make the stems look ragged and at some point the stems will have to be taken out and replaced with new cuttings."

Yes, you did say that on page 9 and this was my response also on page 9.

Yes, this I believe will happen, but the area behind the rock is actually quite large and accessable. It's tough to tell from the photo.

So we were both right, the area was easy to replant, there is alot of room back there. It was only a matter of how often you need to replant. I really like the look of stem plants in my setup, so I don't mind uprooting every 2 months. I don't think I have much of an option.

As far as the stargrass one grouping looks very solid still the other I think hasn't been as thick for a while (remember the flow conversation) so I'm thinking of restarting that one as well.

My Scapes

Is the Star Grass group that is not as strong the one on the left (when looking at the tank)?

If so, maybe it could have something to do with the larger Rotala group shading this area.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes, the smaller group to the left when looking at the tank. Could be the shade, but the light is directly overhead, so not sure how much of a factor that would be. I also noticed each individual leave is not as elongated as they were on both groups.

My Scapes

Day 65 (I think) - 9th Week.

This has been a transition week for th tank. I had to pull out the main rotala grouping because it seemed to stop growing after about 5 or 6 toppings. I also pulled out one of the stargrass groupings for the same reason. I also added a big piece of DW to the center. Right now it looks a little heavy in the hardscape and I still don't have the DW I really want but I plan to have my stem plants grow around tha middle piece just exposing the top third of it. I also don't have the heart to remove it because for some reason, my two yamato shrimp are calling it home. I don't know if it's because of the height or the crevices in it, but they seldom leave it.




tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Another pic as it sets in my kitchen. You could also see the only visible equipment now in my tank is the green eheim return. I'm still not sure why the company makes these an ugly mint green. I actually ordered a black intake from another brand of filter. You probably can't even see my heater which is just to the right of the return. It's a visi-therm stealth and is all black. My diffusor is now an airstone inside the intake and the airline tubing, what else black stealth.



tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 29-Nov-2005 18:55[/font]

Last edited by tetratech at 29-Nov-2005 19:07

My Scapes

Stealths are the best heaters ever.

Cup,
I would have to agree!

My Scapes

I really like that minimilist "iwagumi" look. Something tall and very thin in thick solitary group at the back wopuld be an amazing look. Cyperus Helfiri or Vallisnera Nana would be stunning. Really show off the Cardinals too. Not the entire back , just one thick grouping.

If you go back to the old look, I'd swap out the Rotala (not uprooting for 2 months was pushing it a bit - I didn't mean you could go THAT long) for something more dramatic, bolder - Limnophilia Aromatica or Ludwigia Cuba or Ammania or if you're feeling real brave Eusteralis Stellata.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

tetratech,

You know, I think it looks just awesome the way it is now. Maybe you shouldn’t plant anything else at all and just let the Wisteria and Hair Grass cover the entire ground.

On the other hand, that would mean that you are done. And that would be really boring . And if you should decide to go with Bensaf’s advice and try his Cyperus Helferi idea then tell me where you got it as I seem not to be able to find it at any online retailer (it’s either out or they don’t have it at all). This plant is No1 on my wish list.

About the filter return. Eheim has kits (called No1 for intake and No2 for return) that are not green, more of a dark gray. You can look at my tank pics to see them. Maybe the No2 is an option for you.

Again, I like the current look very much,

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 30-Nov-2005 03:26

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks for the comments, To be honest I didn't think anyone would really like the tank right now, because it is in transition and alittle off balance.

I like those pinkish plants Bensaf mentioned, I'll have to see if I could locate. I know aquariumplants does not have them.

LF I did see that Eheim return you have sold as a kit, but as you said it is grey so I'm trying at this point to get all black.

You can't tell from my pic, but my tank does has a haze to it. I'm not sure if it's from the distrubance of removing the plants or the fact that my plant mass is smaller. There seems to be a very fine line between clarity and cloudiness in my tank.

My Scapes

I like those pinkish plants Bensaf mentioned, I'll have to see if I could locate. I know aquariumplants does not have them.

All apart from the Stellata should be easy enough to find. Try Aquabotanic. The for sale forum on APC should throw some up.

Helferi is a bit more difficult (very slow grower)but again they pop up on APC from time to time. Try a WTB post.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Helferi is a bit more difficult (very slow grower)but again they pop up on APC from time to time. Try a WTB post.

I just checked AB. The only thing they list as available is the Helferi. Everything else I can't find when I search their site. I guess I need to make more friends at APC.



My Scapes

Yeah tetratech,

I ordered it about 40 min ago

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You mean you beat me to the last stem. You Jersey guys are all the same when it comes to New Yorkers.

Is that all you ordered and what do they charge to ship?

My Scapes

What

Does that mean that there was only one left? Or none? I sure didn’t mean to do that.

I bought 5 and I also bought 5 Potamogeton gayii – looks like an interesting plant, will se what it does (and where it goes).

I was reading about shipping after I placed the order as I assumed it would come up in the ordering process (but didn’t). They charge around $ 18 to $ 24 for shipping in handling, if I read that right. I should have put my shipping preference in the field “Note to us”, but I didn’t know that when I placed the order (you know, I had to rush to beat all the NY guys to it ). It will be shipped next week (I hope) via UPS 2day.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I think I have to put together a bigger order if I'm going to pay $25 for s&h. I just did my monthly BigAls order and the wife see's all the bills? I was just kidding about the last stem.

BTW - Off topic, what is your current temp in your 125G? Mine is at about 78F. Wondering if it's more beneficial for plants to reduce to 75F. I got into a habit of keeping it warmer for the cardinals and too make ich tougher to establish itself.

My Scapes

tetratech,

You almost made me feel guilty .

I have both of my smaller tanks at about 80F but decided to keep the 125G a little cooler (mostly because of heating cost considerations). I have two thermometers in the tank one left front one right back side. The first one reads 76F and the other one 78F. The are both glass thermometers and I assume my true value is in the middle. My heaters (Visi Therm – but not stealth) are set to 76F (I believe).

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 30-Nov-2005 09:28

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks for the temp reading. I'm pretty much right where you are, maybe alittle warmer. I'm glad I don't have the ebo heater anymore, set it at 75 and 81.

Maybe you shouldn’t plant anything else at all and just let the Wisteria and Hair Grass cover the entire ground.
It's funny that you said that, because if I do nothing my wistera will completely take over the substrate. It does not grow vertically anymore. It crawls along the substrate. I used to get all kinds of algae on the wisteria, it was almost like a magnet, but now it grows too fast and incredibly clean. In this pic the wisteria reaches all the way to the back glass and will probably reach the right side glass next week. It kinda looks like a thick field going uphill to the rocks and main group.



tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 30-Nov-2005 11:07[/font]

My Scapes

* imagines tetratech standing next to the tank with a whip saying “crawl Wisteria, crawl” *



Yeah, I know I am crasy.

It would be interesting to see what will happen when it wants to grow and the glass is in its way. Will is “crawl” up the glass or start to grow vertical again?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

* imagines tetratech standing next to the tank with a whip saying “crawl Wisteria, crawl” *

(Scratches Head) How did you know?

Switching to stargrass. I find this to be a really weird plant. It's not dying, but the leafs are more compact now and I'm getting some black and I have good light. It's supposely a macro hungry plant and I know I have no3 and po4 cause I've been dosing. The flow is hitting a gently. I've even replanted some tops and it's really not taking off. I've heard of alot of people not being able to figure stargrass out. I knew you had problems in your 20g with light, but mine is directly under my light :%)

My Scapes

tetratech,

Are they getting black at the bottom or on the leaves?

If it is at the bottom then maybe the compact leaves create enough shade to have the bottoms die.

If it is on top then I don't know. It doesn't seem to grow in my 20G as well as it used to. Some pieces came lose and I took the chance to plant a few in the corner of the 125G. Maybe in a few weeks I can tell you my experience (if I still have it then).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

It pretty much has black areas all the way around, not just on the bottom. Leaves are smaller and not as "lack of a better word" flurry. I guess that's a disadvantage for me only having a few dense stands. If one goes down it puts a big hole in my scape. With all your plants it doesn't affect it as much.

My Scapes

Since I have such a fine line between clear and cloudiness I've decided to purchase a UV sterilizer. Some aquarist have never used these others swear by them. I think it all depends upon your situation and who knows maybe one's tap water and it's contents plays a role in water getting cloudy.

One of the reasons I've decided to purchase one was also fish-based. Since I plan on having a large school of Cardinals which have shown themselves to be e to internal infections I feel the UV will help since it destroys harmful bacteria and parasites. I believe it will also save me money in the long run in both replacement fish as well as water clarifiers, etc.

My Scapes

Interesting... and I guess it makes sense in your situation. Rather than buy from an LFS that does not use them, you're just going to get one yourself so that "conditions" stay constant.

How much do those run on a tank your size?

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Back in the saddle!

Nowher,

I bought this one at BigAls. Treats up to 125g

http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=22513;category_id=3247

I would love to support my LFS, but this unit would probably be twice as much if you could even find it.

Last edited by tetratech at 01-Dec-2005 12:36

My Scapes

Yeah tetratech,

It sounds interesting. I know there are many debates about them destroying all kinds of bacteria the good ones and the bad ones (whatever that means). Others say that they create an environment that is as far from nature as can be as a sterile river/pond/lake does simply not exist.

Personally, I would like to see the long term consequences you get while using it. It sure makes sense with regards to the Cardinal sensitivity.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I did alot of thread reading before buying. But your right, people are on both sides of the fence. It falls in that "if it ain't broke, why bother" category, but I think it makes sense for me.

I did read that someone named "Greg Watson" uses one 24/7 and he's in the states. Who knows what's in that magical south american water where Bensaf lives. I bet it's alot different than our water.

Others say that they create an environment that is as far from nature as can be as a sterile river/pond/lake does simply not exist.
Some do say that, but others say it actually mimics nature more since their are more problems in a closed ecosystem than in nature where rain, runoff, etc is constantly refreshing things. Remember the only thing sterlized is the stuff moving thru the water colum. Like GW algae, pathogens, etc. The bacterial filter is unaffected since it's affixed to things. If Greg Watson - Mr Ferts is running one 24/7, I'm not too concerned about the ferts. As you said it will be interesting and that's part of the fun.

My Scapes

Others say that they create an environment that is as far from nature as can be as a sterile river/pond/lake does simply not exist.

Meh, trimmed and groomed rotalla and wisteria also are found nowhere in nature but you don't see me complaining

I'm also curious to see how it works out with your tank tetra, keep us posted

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Back in the saddle!

Who knows what's in that magical south american water where Bensaf lives. I bet it's alot different than our water.

Huh ? Have I moved to the depths of Brasil without knowing it ?
But I can tell you my S.E. Asian water is not so magical. Kh of 5-6, Gh 8, pH 7.6 out of the tap. Not the soft tropical water one would expect. Sometimes all we get from the tap is brown sludge. You wouldn't drink it if your life depended on it. It is a perfect temp though. No hot or cold faucet, just one. Water comes out at 26 -28o C. No or very low levels of Chlorine. The fact that if you drank it would doubtless result in you spending 3 days never more then 10 feet from a bathroom would suggest it's a haven of parasites.

Never had Stargrass, for some reason impossible to find here. What I've heard is that it's a real hungry plant, likes high levels of everything. Most seem to think the black is caused by a shortage of Iron.

Increasing micros is usually a good idea in a well growing tank. The lack of color in your Rotala recently would also indicate low micros, especially Iron. I'd try increasing micros or at least give an extra shot of chelated FE.

In my own tank which is almost the same size as yours I dose 10ml of TMG and 5ml of Chelated FE 3 x week. Works well.

Almost forgot, The UV. I've never used one. But as you mentioned I know a lot of good planted people do use them. Can't see a reason where they would be detrimental.Even in the unlikely event they affected some of the micros it's real easy to add more to compensate. I think it's one of those thing that's by no means neccessary, but if you can afford it it's a nice tool to have at your fingertips. Go for it.

Last edited by bensaf at 01-Dec-2005 21:11

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Sorry Bensaf, not sure what I was thinking. I guess I'm always thinking S.A. cause of the fish. What I can't figure out is everything just stopped. I continued to dose everything and it just stopped. I shouldn't say everything. The wistera and hairgrass are fine, but the stargrass and rotala which were so lush just stopped. I don't even see any growth on the replanted tops. First off I have eco-complete, they should be uptaking some stuff from that. I actually tried dosing 5ml of Flourish everyday this week, no change, I even upped my dosing of no3 and po4, nothing, I pulled up some of the replanted tops and found very little root growth. My pho has been a steady 6.4 and kh 3, so that gives me real good co2 levels and my tank has gotten alittle cloudy again, maybe from reduced plant mass or FE dosing. The only thing I'm not really adding is CA/MG, I know I'm getting some from flourish/flourish trace as well and it's in the eco.

I just don't understand how these plants totally stall like this?

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Lets try to break it down a bit.

If your GH is 3o dgh or above you should have no need to dose additional CA or Mg.

Are you seeing any new growth at all ? When you say stunted has it just stopped or is the new growth coming out really small or twisted not fully formed leaves.

If it's simply stopped growing , how are the existing/old leaves looking.Are they yellowing or disintegrating ? Holes ?

The fact that there's roots , even if only small on the tops you re-planted is good. There's hope.

The reason I'm asking these questions. If you are getting new growth but very small, or the older or existing leaves are dying off we're dealing with a nutrient issue. Depending on the answers we can zone in on which one.

If the plant has simply stopped growing and no other signs of problems it's more then likely not a nutrient issue , more one of over zealous pruning. The plant may be just re-establishing. The new roots are interesting. Generally a stressed plant, especially a cutting, takes a bit of time to bounce back. Most of the plants energy is put into producing new roots. The roots are mainly for anchoring not nutrient extraction, it's finding "a home". Once it's found that home and is secured it will then focus on extracting nutrients. Generally from the water column, they extract nutrients through the roots only when the water is lean.

I'm guessing from what you say it may just be a wait a bit thing. If the plant was truly "dead" it wouldn't produce any roots and the existing leaves would decompose pretty quickly.

You answers should clear up the nutrient issue.

Usually when there is a shortage of one or more nutrients the plant will continue to grow but, depending on the nutrients involved, the plant will exhibit stress. Some nutrients are movable by the plant from old growth to new, hence knowing the leaves affected is a big clue.

Bottom line I've never seen a nutrient shortage cause a plant to simply stop growing, rather it will disintegrate or show deformities.

Nutrient toxicities or imbalances on the other hand may cause a plant to stop. I've seen it and I've seen it bad in Rotalas. But it's usually a very select group of nutrients that cause this.Also it's a relatively small selection of plants that get affected. Rotalas are definately one, some Ludwigias, Ammania and strangely enough Wisteria seems a bit fussy about levels of one specific nutrient.Stargrass i'm not sure , as I said never had any. Your answers will tell me a lot.

I can rule out Nitrates. Rotala likes lower NO3 levels , stargrass likes higher levels. If the NO3 was causing a problem for the Rotala, the Stargrass would do well. And vice versa. The fact that it's affecting both rules out No3.

One last question: are you dosing Potassium apart from what is in KNO3 and KH2PO4 ? K2SO4 or KCL ?
If you are can you please look at the newest leaves of your Wisteria and tell me if you see anything unusual. Any new leaves look like they have bits missing ?

I feel like Sherlock Holmes here :%)

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

And where is Dr. Watson?

Bensaf,

Your explanations are, as usual, wonderful and extremely informative.

tetratech,

I sometimes wonder about my CA as well.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

If your GH is 3o dgh or above you should have no need to dose additional CA or Mg.
KH IS 3 GH IS 5

Are you seeing any new growth at all ? When you say stunted has it just stopped or is the new growth coming out really small or twisted not fully formed leaves.
ROTALA - SMALL RED GROWTH, I GUESS I HAVE ENOUGH FE OR LOW NITRATES, WHICH WOULD EXPLAIN STARGRASS PROBLEM?

If it's simply stopped growing , how are the existing/old leaves looking.Are they yellowing or disintegrating ?
NO YELLOW, NO HOLES

The fact that there's roots , even if only small on the tops you re-planted is good. There's hope. I ALSO ENDED UP RUNNING SHORT ON GOOD STEMS SO I REPLANTED SOME STEMS THAT I HAD JUST CUT THE TOPS OFF, SO BASICALLY I REPLANTED THE MIDDLE, NOT MUCH HAPPENING ON THOSE.

Any new leaves looks like their are bits missing?
NO WISTERIA LOOKS AS GOOD AS ALWAYS. LEAVES ARE COMING IN DIFFERENT SHAPES, ETC, BUT IT IS DIFFORMIS.

I guess what surprises me is I didn't change anything and the plants were growing so lush and then (Hits brick wall).

Yes, In addition to no3 and po4 I am using Flourish Potassium. I'm only getting my FE thru Flourish I am not dosing Flourish Iron or any other Iron fert and according to the Fertilator my 5ml dosing 3/weekly would give me .18 ppm for the week and whatever the plant is getting through the Eco.

See what happens when you disappear for too long. Feels like old times, thanks again for meddling

One las thing, In a tank like mine, where it's mostly ground cover and a few thick (was) stands of stems, I'm still not sure how the whole EI calculation fits in. Although Wisteria is taking up a considerable amount of real estate it's low and crawling and I know it's a n03 sucker.

BTW - Observation, It doesn't look like the plants are reacting to light. They aren't reaching toward it.


Last edited by tetratech at 02-Dec-2005 07:03

Last edited by tetratech at 02-Dec-2005 07:27

My Scapes

Hmmmm....ok.

Keep an eye on the Rotala. If the new small shoots stop growing and the plant produces new small shoots that also stop growing report back to me, corporal.

If the shoots continue to grow but just stay smaller that's ok, you've just over trimmed.

The fact that the Wisteria is still normal rules out one suspect.

Stop the additional Potassium dosing. You don't need it you'll get enough from the KN03 and KH2PO4.

Stunting has become a problem for some people. It's quite the little controversy in the planted world.Some say it's the CA/Mg ratio going out of whack, some say it's too much Potassium blocking CA uptake , some say it's too much Potassium full stop.It's tricky one , usually hits the same species of plants, looks like a CA problem but's hitting tanks with decent Gh which should plenty of CA.

Got my own opinions but don't want to get into them here. I'm pretty convinced Potassium plays a role somewhere for a very few plants. Difformis is one of them.

I've noticed lately Tom Barr is reccomending Mg additions if the GH is over a certain level as part of EI. Suspect he has his theories on this issue.

I don't think that's what we're dealing with here but back off the extra K and keep an eye on things. If you see pinholes showing on old leaves up the K again. If not leave it out apart from what you are dosing with No3 and PO4.

Sounds like you just over trimmed the plants and knocked them back. Keep a close eye on the Rotala.

You can always get a new bunch of Rotala and watch that. If it grows as normal you've just over trimmed. If it shows the same problem you've got a nutrient issue.

As to your plant mass question. Well if you truly believe that excess nutrients don't cause algae well you don't have to worry about the plant mass in relation to your dosing so much. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

I don't think you have a nutrient issue. If you do it's not going to be NO3 or PO4. But you can test them anyway.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks! I hope your right that it's just a nasty trim. Thing that concerns me is the bottoms and the tops aren't growing. Thing I need to address is the relationship between root uptake and leaves for micros. Part of me always thinks I got the eco, so I don't have to worry about micros as much as the next guy, although I have been dosing 5ml flourish 3/weekly and sometimes I throw in some flourish trace. Anyway here's a couple of pics of the wistera (looks normal to me) and the stargrass (just about every leave in this pick has some black on it.

BTW - I haven't tested kno3 and po4 in probably 3 weeks, ran out of test stuff (really get sick of testing), but since I ordered some stuff I did reorder a po4 and no3 test (hopefully last one).



tetratech attached this image:


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See that Rotala stem in the lower left. It looks healthy, but it's been in that position probably for 3 or 4 days doing nothing.

Here'a wisteria pic:



tetratech attached this image:


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Rotala Pic (crappy pic)

See the circled areas those show little buds that came out pink, but haven't grown any bigger over 3 or 4 days.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes